Breast Implants: Love 'em or Hate 'em?

[Dr. Imago]

Seriously, I'm starting this thread because I am at wits end with my sister. We just got off the phone. We have been having a discussion that is now beginning to border on an argument.

Here's the deal: She's 32 and is seriously exploring the option of getting breast implants. I respect what she says and her impression that she believes that this is "her choice" and she is only doing it to "feel better about herself", but what I don't accept is that she is not addressing the roots of the psychological inadequacy that she feels.

I'll tell you, flat out, that I can't stand breast implants. I think they are a self-confidence cop-out that is designed purely to provide a crutch for women who are insecure about their appearance when they compare themselves to other women. It has little to do with their attractiveness to men, except for when the woman is intimate with a man and wonders if he's been with other women who have better looking breasts than she.

I can tell you, as a brother from a perfectly non-sexual and clinical standpoint, that her breasts are fine. No, she doesn't look like the cartoonish Pamela Anderson or the host of any other southern Cali girls who look like they've had to canteloupe halves glued to their chest (and who she's feels she's now competing with since moving to the San Diego area two years ago), but she is a fine, normal looking woman with two perfectly normal sized breasts that are well-proportioned to her body.

What is wrong with women these days? From a psychological standpoint, I see the dysfunction and the "quick fix" that breast implants offer. I see this phenomenon as a sign of incredible weakness and unwillingness to even look at the real reasons they feel inadequate. For me personally, it's gotten to the point where I look at women with breast impants almost with disdain. It just disgusts me. It's not "them", and despite how perfectly round they may look they are not nor will they ever be real.

Of course, I'm not talking about post-mastectomy patients here or other women who've had some catastrophic injury and are only attempting to restore what they once had. But, have we gotten so superficial and vain in our society that the only way women can feel good about themselves (or better than other women) is to undergo surgery?

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH OUR SOCIETY?!??!!?? Am I overreacting? I can't for the life of me figure out how we got so superficial.

You know, despite my areligiousness and lack of belief in the concept of "sin", I think that the "seven deadly sins" thing is pretty on the mark as a study of human nature. This is about vanity. And, I see a lot of lost, unhappy people out there who are turning to some purported panacea that will fix their perceived problems... and, it just ain't happening.

[Yahweh]

I'm not impressed with breast implants either. I dont know if its just me but I dont exactly see what other guys see in breasts. I've watched the Man Show and all they talk about is the girl with the biggest breasts. I more impressed by a woman with a nice figure and luscious hair than a pair of big ol' knockers.

[Luke T.]

I don't like them,either, ThirdTwin. I think it is unfortunate that there are enough men out there who react favorably to them that a lot of women feel the need to get them.

How can a woman trust someone who likes her for her breasts?

I agree with all of your points.

[reprise]

Loathe the idea that women often make the decision about whether or not to have implants based on feelings of inadequacy.

I also loathe the cosmetic dental industry, the penile enhancement industry, the "beauty" industry, and a whole lot of others for the same reason - they profit from the sense of inadequacy which they themselves have played a major role in creating and maintaining.

[iankaplan]

I find breast implants to be a major turnoff.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by iankaplan
I find breast implants to be a major turnoff.
I agree. Not at all appealing.

[Earthborn]

Thirdtwin, buy her Reshaping the Female Body: The dilemma of Cosmetic surgery (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0415906326/qid=1056959666/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/104-0466274-8551955?v=glance&s=books) by Cathy Davis.

It lists all the risks, side effects and problems with Cosmetic surgery and specifically breast enlargements. Cathy Davis fully acknowledges the cultural pressures under which women (or men) choose such operations. And the cultural pressures to prevent them from doing it.

She does not however assume a priori that these treatments are illegitimate, even when they are made for purely 'psychological' reasons or on breasts that appear perfectly normal.

Davis attacks the people who opposed to it, as well as the people who think their body is a canvas to shape at will. She challenges the culture that promotes perfect bodies, and the people who think women choose breast implants just to become perfect. She acknowledges all the dilemma's and all the nuances.

She challenges the feminists who claim that women who choose cosmetic surgery just do so because they are oppressed. She criticizes the condescending way these women are treated by doctors, and the women are not above criticism either.

It's a great book for any one who thinking of any form of cosmetic surgery, but also for those who want to have a better understanding why people want it. So read it yourself, too!

[LuxFerum]

I think that is ok,
Some girls have really small breast, then why not?
Its good not only for who have a catastrophic injury, but for girls that are "too flat", and for those affected by getting old.

But I agree when you say that breast implant is over-used.

[RichardR]

Small real ones are better than big fakes. Fakes don’t look right, don’t move right and certainly feel too hard.

Having implants (or any plastic surgery), will not make her "feel better about herself”. They might make her feel better about the way she looks, but she’ll still feel the same way about herself.

However, once you have told her all that and any other objections you have, you might as well let her make her own decision, IMO. It is her body.

[LuxFerum]

Originally posted by RichardR
Small real ones are better than big fakes. Fakes don’t look right, don’t move right and certainly feel too hard.

I think that when the implants is in the right size, its almost imposible to distinguish.
But when is bigger than normal, then is cleary visible.

[LCBOY]

ThirdTwin,

Do you think you sister is succumbing to societial pressures to have that "hour-glass" body that everywhere on TV, movies, magazines, etc?

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by RichardR
Small real ones are better than big fakes. Fakes don't look right, don't move right and certainly feel too hard. Is this from personal experience?

I admit I do not have a great deal of experience myself but I do have a single experience. Those pair looked right, moved right and felt naturally soft. You couldn't even feel the implant. The only giveaway was a fine white scar beneath each breast. The reason she had the implants was that after breast-feeding her two children, her breasts collapsed and looked like a pair of wrinkled prunes. After the surgery her breasts looked much like they looked before the breast-feeding.

I'm sure everyone doesn't have the same success with implants though.

BillyJoe.

[LillyThePink]

I think they are grotesque.

Mind you, my own have been steadily heading south for a while now, but I don't think I would be interested in getting them enlarged. They're quite ridiculous enough already without filling them with silicone.

I don't understand why a person would do this, but then again, I am not afflicted with a flat chest. As my fella always says, more than a handful is a waste... ;)

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by LillyThePink
more than a handful is a waste...:) Or if you are really small....."more than a mouthful is a waste" ;)

[RichardR]

Originally posted by LuxFerum
I think that when the implants is in the right size, its almost imposible to distinguish.Not for the expert. :D

[RichardR]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
Is this from personal experience?Yes. Maybe implant technology has improved in recent years then.

[LuxFerum]

Originally posted by RichardR
Not for the expert. :D
is too hard to concentrate:D

[_Q_]

Originally posted by Yahweh
I'm not impressed with breast implants either. I dont know if its just me but I dont exactly see what other guys see in breasts. I've watched the Man Show and all they talk about is the girl with the biggest breasts. I more impressed by a woman with a nice figure and luscious hair than a pair of big ol' knockers.

My then-girlfriend, now-wife once asked me, fairly early on in our relationship, whether I was a "breast man" or a "leg man". I thought about it for only a couple of seconds, and answered, "I'm a [her name] man!".

That was a very, very good answer, and the truth.


_Q_

[bignickel]

I have a simple question for those women that claim they're only getting them to improve their own 'body image', and that it has nothing to do with looking good for men:

How many lesbians get breast implants?

(Discounting any that work in the adult industries, of course)

[Luciana]

Originally posted by ThirdTwin
[B][VENT]
What is wrong with women these days? From a psychological standpoint, I see the dysfunction and the "quick fix" that breast implants offer. I see this phenomenon as a sign of incredible weakness and unwillingness to even look at the real reasons they feel inadequate. For me personally, it's gotten to the point where I look at women with breast impants almost with disdain. It just disgusts me. It's not "them", and despite how perfectly round they may look they are not nor will they ever be real.

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH OUR SOCIETY?!??!!?? Am I overreacting? I can't for the life of me figure out how we got so superficial.

My turn to vent:

Thirdtwin: please reread the first two paragraphs that I quoted. Don't you think that looking at women with breast implants with disdain is the most superficial thing you could ever do?

I don't get it. It's her sister's body, money and health. Do you take to yourself the job of criticize her job of car or house, for example?

Why is it that men feel oh so entitled to criticize and complain about the femaly body? It's her life, for Christ's sake! You don't know her motivations.

And before anyone asks, the idea of a breast implant, totally horrifies me. In me, not in this lifetime, I assure you. And no, I'm not insecure about my body. My struggle is to keep as it is. That being said...

Why no one complains when someone pays an inordinate money for a car that meets more than the minimal requirements of safety and comfort? Isn't it a waste of good money, expression of vanity, vulnerability to societal pressures, etc.? Or people respect that because, after all, this is a free country, the money is yours to do what you see fit and if you like cars, then go to hell those who think they can rule your tastes. Pray tell me what is the difference? Imho, no one needs a 50,000 car. But I'm not going to look down upon those who have it.

And what's so inherently wrong about women insecure about their bodies? This is human nature! Is it even true that our society is obsessed with bodies, if people are getting fatter by the day? I don't get what could be so wrong about being, to some extent, insecure. The way people say it, it's almost like a character flaw.

I suspect that your sister will go through a self-esteem boost after the surgery. She will feel more beautiful and then she will be. She will take better care of herself and most likely will have her sex life improved, more confidence in the workplace and more assertiveness as a human being.

Or... she will get obsessed about the next surgery, and will have one surgery after the other, and will end up just like Michael Jackson. I find that extremely unlikely. There are women who go down this path and of course we'll see them more often, with their wax-pale faces and artificial smiles, then we'll see women who fixed a problem and moved on with their lives.

End rant.

[CFLarsen]

Luciana,

No rant. Wise words, as always. :)

[AmateurScientist]

Luciana,

I agree with you. I've always been of the mindset that if it works for you, then fine. I do believe that such drastic decisions should be made after careful contemplation and appreciation for all the risks and consequences, however. It's difficult for many of the teenagers who are getting implants these days to have much of an objective appreciation for the consequences, in my opinion. That is a disturbing trend, as anyone living in Brazil should understand. Plastic surgery appears to be one of your country's favorite sports.

As many men understand, the decision to get breast implants for most women appears to be a purely selfish one. She's doing it to feel better about herself and nothing more.

Understood in that light, it is somewhat irrelevant whether men like them. On the other hand, as the feeling better about one's self is largely bound up with the notion of being sexually attractive, it does seem ironic that many of these women are actually making themselves less sexually desirable to men.

I place myself firmly in the latter camp. Although I have seen some artificial breasts that looked pretty real and attractive, the vast majority seem to be obviously fake and often disproportionate to the rest of the woman's body. On the whole, I find them very unattractive.

A basic truth seems to be this. Men are often attracted to breasts, period. Big breasts, small breasts, medium breasts. Just breasts. Men like 'em. It's perfectly natural and a good thing. I wish more young women inclined to place foreign objects into their chests understood that.

Personally, many women could save themselves the several thousands of dollars a boob job cost and put a mere fraction of that into a gym membership. After only a few months of regular attendance, I would likely find them far more sexually attractive than I would with big, fake boobs. But then, maybe that's just me. Give me a well-toned young woman's body with firm stomach, shapely legs and butt, and any sized breasts and I'll be attracted to it.

Face it; I'm a pig.

AS

[Cynical]

:eek: :eek:

Cantata! Claus! CLAUSTATA!!!!

Why, in the name of Skeptics everywhere, would YOU be interested in a breast implants thread?? :confused: :confused:

[renata]

I agree with Claus- wise words, Luciana.

I have been thinking about replying since I saw Thirdtwin's post, but Luciana did it better. Here are some facts
- Women are objectified by men, particularly in Southern California ( where I live)
-It is hard for some women to garner the attention they need.
- Women are insecure about their bodies- made so by other women, by media, by Hollywood- but most importantly- by MEN.

Some say change society- well, that takes a long time. Some say stand tall and be proud of your body. Well, that is all great, but for some women rejection after rejection is a tad difficult.

And so some women choose to acquire the characteristics that they feel will gather them accepance. A nose job, highlights in the hair, tight clothing, high heels, a breast augmentation surgery. Because we keep hearing about what is attractive, and the preferred hair length, and how women let themselves go after marriage, etc. Even among great, sensitive men. How many of you say- boy, check out that personality- when you meet a woman?

If your sister has chosen to do so, you can disagree- but perhaps support would be more productive.

I do not know how far down her decision process she is. I assume she has already bought undergarments that enhance her figure, and has decided she liked the look. But if she feels she needs to make that choice, your anger will likely simply alienate her.

And for those of you who are condemning her- next time you walk down the street, sit in a cafe, go dancing- smile and flirt with a short dumpy girl, not the statuesque stunner.

[Cynical]

Renata, will you please tell me, since I know that nobody else will...which forum took the place of the Banter forum? Or, where do the Banter people hang out? I just happened to come across yours and Claus's name, I had no intention of ending up on a BREAST thread!:eek:

[renata]

Originally posted by Cynical
Renata, will you please tell me, since I know that nobody else will...which forum took the place of the Banter forum? Or, where do the Banter people hang out? I just happened to come across yours and Claus's name, I had no intention of ending up on a BREAST thread!:eek:


JREF community forum.

http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&forumid=44

[Wally]

I agree that it’s unfortunate a person feels she needs implants to feel better about themselves, but, If all men’s clothes were designed to prominently show the outline of there penis (as women’s clothes display the contour of there breasts) they might have a different view of enhancement surgery,:eek:

[renata]

In many ways, men are just was superficial as women about their appearance.

Is there the same backlash against men who use rogaine, have hair implants or wear toupees?

[Luciana]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist
t's difficult for many of the teenagers who are getting implants these days to have much of an objective appreciation for the consequences, in my opinion. That is a disturbing trend, as anyone living in Brazil should understand. Plastic surgery appears to be one of your country's favorite sports.

Teenagers definitely should not be in a position to judge these things. We'd hope that parents had better sense. Teenagers always have problems with their self-image. The only exception being an obvious abnormality. In Brazil the surgeons are excellent, the price is cheap and people need to get inside their bikinis. So it's becoming normal, and it's here to stay.

As many men understand, the decision to get breast implants for most women appears to be a purely selfish one. She's doing it to feel better about herself and nothing more.

Actually, this, to me, seems to be the best motivation in the whole world. :D Really, is it not? But I can see how a man could get peeved - she's trying to be more sexually attractive... but not for me! :rolleyes: (I know it's not your case)

Understood in that light, it is somewhat irrelevant whether men like them. On the other hand, as the feeling better about one's self is largely bound up with the notion of being sexually attractive, it does seem ironic that many of these women are actually making themselves less sexually desirable to men.

Here I agree only to some extent. If you love a woman, would her breast implants really matter? I'd bet not. We're talking about substance here. However, big boobs do attracts more looks. Trust me here, I've seen the both sides of the coin. It works. By the time a man has realized her boobs are fake, he's already digging a woman's smile, conversation, etc.

Some women are born with the gift of attracting men's looks. They get used to it and hardly notice anymore. To women who were born without this gift, being stared at is an accomplishment. Becoming a neck-turner can be a goal. Let them be.

I place myself firmly in the latter camp. Although I have seen some artificial breasts that looked pretty real and attractive, the vast majority seem to be obviously fake and often disproportionate to the rest of the woman's body. On the whole, I find them very unattractive.

In my opinion, proportion is even more important than the beauty of individual parts. So yes, I agree. But sometimes breasts that are too big or too small are also disproportionate, even if entirely unnatural.

A basic truth seems to be this. Men are often attracted to breasts, period. Big breasts, small breasts, medium breasts. Just breasts. Men like 'em. It's perfectly natural and a good thing. I wish more young women inclined to place foreign objects into their chests understood that.

So true.

I also wish guys cared less about their cars, because those things don't impress me either. :)

[AmateurScientist]

Originally posted by renata
In many ways, men are just was superficial as women about their appearance.

Is there the same backlash against men who use rogaine, have hair implants or wear toupees?

Ughh. Yes. I will lose my hair gracefully and with a sense of humor about it, thank you.

Men who vainly try to fight nature in that regard are engaged in a pathetic vanity, in my opinion. They aren't fooling anyone.

Face it. Men and women are held to different standards with respect to their appearances, and sexual attraction is largely responsible for that. The simple fact is that men as whole place more emphasis on a woman's appearance than women as a whole place on a man's.

Therefore, a man's excessive vanity with regard to his appearance is more disdainful than a woman's.

Fair? No. Nature isn't and neither do I pretend it to be.

AS

[AmateurScientist]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery


I also wish guys cared less about their cars, because those things don't impress me either. :)

You're right. I have had other guys tell me after I buy a new car that it should be helpful in getting dates (they didn't say it quite like that :D ).

I am quick to correct them. The last few successive cars I bought just for me. They are what I was looking for purely for my own enjoyment and comfort. I love a good-handling car, and I want it to be reasonably luxurious inside and aesthetically pleasing on the outside. I couldn't care less whether it impresses women or not.

Not all men are so consistently shallow. Some of us are only shallow on occasion.

:D

AS

[renata]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist


Ughh. Yes. I will lose my hair gracefully and with a sense of humor about it, thank you.

Men who vainly try to fight nature in that regard are engaged in a pathetic vanity, in my opinion. They aren't fooling anyone.

Face it. Men and women are held to different standards with respect to their appearances, and sexual attraction is largely responsible for that. The simple fact is that men as whole place more emphasis on a woman's appearance than women as a whole place on a man's.

Therefore, a man's excessive vanity with regard to his appearance is more disdainful than a woman's.

Fair? No. Nature isn't and neither do I pretend it to be.

AS


Unfair- fine. But men coming down, condemning a woman who has decided to fulfill the standards men in general have themselves set is disungenuous and unfair.

I had a coworker once who would flash his Audi everywhere he went. And then he complained that he attracted shallow women. The two were not unrelated, but he did not seem to understand that. Not all men are like that- but I am getting tired of some men complaining about women letting themselves go, not exercising, etc and in the same breath lamenting that there are no warm, intelligent women left in the world. We are right here! We are not size 4 with perfect teeth and waist length hair. We are warm and bright and witty and loyal and open and trusting. But you will not meet us as you drive in your convertible, wind tousling remains of your hair, ogling six foot blondes on the beachside.

And if we bleach our hair and become anorexic and get boob jobs and overdose on diet pills- don't nod knowingly about stupid women that only care about their appearance.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by renata

Unfair- fine. But men coming down, condemning a woman who has decided to fulfill the standards men in general have themselves set is disungenuous and unfair.

I had a coworker once who would flash his Audi everywhere he went. And then he complained that he attracted shallow women. The two were not unrelated, but he did not seem to understand that. Not all men are like that- but I am getting tired of some men complaining about women letting themselves go, not exercising, etc and in the same breath lamenting that there are no warm, intelligent women left in the world. We are right here! We are not size 4 with perfect teeth and waist length hair. We are warm and bright and witty and loyal and open and trusting. But you will not meet us as you drive in your convertible, wind tousling remains of your hair, ogling six foot blondes on the beachside.

And if we bleach our hair and become anorexic and get boob jobs and overdose on diet pills- don't nod knowingly about stupid women that only care about their appearance.
If you re-read this a few times, you might discover that you are generalizing about men as much as you claim they are generalizing about women.

[Tormac]

From the bias of a single heterosexual male I have to say it does depend on why your sister is getting them.

Honestly if she wants to attract attention from men, it well help her get noticed. First impressions are important in this kind of thing. Of course the kind of attention that she is going to get may not be what she is looking for in the long run.

I would say not every male needs/wants a 36+chest. Men that are attracted to many different physical features of females, the popular image is not the only image that is "popular" with males. Quality is just as important as quantity in this arena. Looking back at all the woman I have dated who I would say I feel in love with, all were in the 32-34 a-b range.

In this arena there may be such a thing as bad attention. Is the guy that is going to love her as 38D but would ignore her as a 34B the type of guy that she wants in her life?

I have found that happy women are much more attractive than unhappy women. I cannot prove this, but I believe it. If this is a "quick fix" to solve feelings of inadequacy, it is not going to work in the long run. If she is defining herself by one of three numbers, she needs to take a step back and decide where her true happiness lies. Your sister should consider all of the things that she has in her life that she can be proud of. If she is not satisfied with the list, will changing one number on her figure add much to it? Maybe she needs to get out and add to that list of things she enjoys doing and is proud of having done. Women who smile, laugh, giggle, and are generally more expressive around me will capture my attention as quickly as that stretched sweater, and will be able to hold my attention longer. Breasts in general do have a kind of hypnotic effect on men, but past the first 30 seconds a woman's personality is much more important.

Finally depending on how large she is considering she may want to think about practicality. I know a well-endowed woman who attended the same karate school that I did. She would joke about her figure being an impediment to physical activities, and being a “trophy bride” (note that she was a medical doctor with a strong sense of self worth and also a sense of humor about herself, defiantly not a trophy bride). She was very athletic and tall; usually the form that lends itself to martial arts, but her own chest did get in her way, and she was seriously investigating breast reduction surgery. I’m guessing she had a 36D-24-34 figure on a very stately 5’11” frame, but it was not what was what she wanted in the long run.

[renata]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

If you re-read this a few times, you might discover that you are generalizing about men as much as you claim they are generalizing about women.


It was not my intent to paint all men or all women the same. That would be ludicrous. My apologies for not making that clear. Of course I thought me saying- not all men... some men made it clear it was not a generalization of all men.

[Luciana]

Originally posted by renata
And for those of you who are condemning her- next time you walk down the street, sit in a cafe, go dancing- smile and flirt with a short dumpy girl, not the statuesque stunner.

An attractive woman will always attract looks. If she's shallow, a nice guy will eventually drop her, but he still went there to check.

An unattractive woman will have to try harder. She'll not attract as many looks, therefore lowering her chances of finding a nice guy. That's absolute true. Even the nicest guy will fall into the mistake of flirting with the shallow yet beautiful woman and totally ignore the not-so-beautiful but interesting woman right in front of him. I've seen it thousands of times.

I can't forget to mention that not all beautiful women are shallow, nor all ugly women are interesting. Sometimes a woman is both attractive and intelligent, just as sometimes she's both unattractive and stupid. Like men, btw.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery

I don't get it. It's her sister's body, money and health. Do you take to yourself the job of criticize her job of car or house, for example?

Ha, you're an only child, aren't you? It is a brother's job to criticise any aspect of her life.

[thatguywhojuggles]

I am not bothered by breast implants. My only concern with them is a safety one, but I imagine they are becoming safer.

I don't see breast implants as any differently than I see tattooing, piercing, putting plates in your lips, stretching your neck by putting rings around it, stretching your ears so that they have huge holes in them, inserting marbles under you skin in your forearms, dying your hair, wearing contact lenses that change your eye colour, wearing fake fingernails, having your nose surgically changed, getting a facelift.... the list goes on and on.

In the end, you live in a physical body. That physical body will die one day. What you do with it in the time before it dies is your own business. If getting breasts the size of large watermellons makes you happy, then get breasts the size of large watermellons. What makes one person happy will not especially make another person happy. But it is YOUR body... do what you want!

[renata]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery


An attractive woman will always attract looks. If she's shallow, a nice guy will eventually drop her, but he still went there to check.

An unattractive woman will have to try harder. She'll not attract as many looks, therefore lowering her chances of finding a nice guy. That's absolute true. Even the nicest guy will fall into the mistake of flirting with the shallow yet beautiful woman and totally ignore the not-so-beautiful but interesting woman right in front of him. I've seen it thousands of times.

I can't forget to mention that not all beautiful women are shallow, nor all ugly women are interesting. Sometimes a woman is both attractive and intelligent, just as sometimes she's both unattractive and stupid. Like men, btw.


Oh, I agree. There are many beautiful women who attract lots of men who are utterly terrific, and there are women who are unattractive inside and outside. Just like men.

But a beautiful woman will get approached more- no question. And I found some beautiful men and women are so used to adoration they do not work on relationships or their personalities, because they get anything they want with the way they look.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
Sometimes a woman is both attractive and intelligent,

Like in your case, of course :)

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
just as sometimes she's both unattractive and stupid. Like men, btw.

....hey!!!! :D

[Luciana]

Originally posted by Tormac
I have found that happy women are much more attractive than unhappy women. I cannot prove this, but I believe it. If this is a "quick fix" to solve feelings of inadequacy, it is not going to work in the long run. If she is defining herself by one of three numbers, she needs to take a step back and decide where her true happiness lies.

Why are you so quick to jump to the conclusion that a) she feels inadequate and b) she "defines" herself by her breast size?

And why "quick-fix"? What if wanting bigger breasts all there is to it? Can't a confident and independent woman just decide she wants to be even more attractive? I think it's possible. Successful people want even more success.

She will have the breast augmentation surgery and will feel happy. She will move on to other things in life because she got what she wanted. Like everybody else. What makes you believe that she's unhealthly obsessed with her self-image?

Your sister should consider all of the things that she has in her life that she can be proud of. If she is not satisfied with the list, will changing one number on her figure add much to it?

I don't know, but that's what she wants! She probably wants other things like a vacation in Jamaica, will that make her fundamentally happier?

Women who smile, laugh, giggle, and are generally more expressive around me will capture my attention as quickly as that stretched sweater, and will be able to hold my attention longer. Breasts in general do have a kind of hypnotic effect on men, but past the first 30 seconds a woman's personality is much more important.


She probably has many other interests in life. I'm also going to enroll in a gym center as soon as my office moves. That doesn't mean that my body is all I think of. It only means that I want to improve what I already like, among other side benefits.

ThirdTwin: I hope she goes ahead with the surgery, I hope that she chooses a size that is compatible with her body and I wish she has a quick recovery.

[Luciana]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist

I am quick to correct them. The last few successive cars I bought just for me. They are what I was looking for purely for my own enjoyment and comfort. I love a good-handling car, and I want it to be reasonably luxurious inside and aesthetically pleasing on the outside. I couldn't care less whether it impresses women or not.
Not all men are so consistently shallow. Some of us are only shallow on occasion.
:D


If you like them, then be happy. I take it that... wait, deep psychological profile coming in... I believe that you're a guy who likes having luxurious cars. Meaning that... you are willing to pay for them. And MORE! You like your car but I think you have other likes and dislikes. Am I right, uh? :D

Now, when a woman wants breast augmentation, she is shallow, insecure, feels inadequate, doesn't understand priorities, etc. (I'm collating the most common arguments, I'm not saying anybody here used those expressions). :rolleyes:

Can't a cigar just be a cigar?

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery

Can't a cigar just be a cigar?
Not in the post-Clinton era.

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

Not in the post-Clinton era.

Well, that all depends on what your definition of "cigar" is...

[AmateurScientist]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery


If you like them, then be happy. I take it that... wait, deep psychological profile coming in... I believe that you're a guy who likes having luxurious cars. Meaning that... you are willing to pay for them. And MORE! You like your car but I think you have other likes and dislikes. Am I right, uh? :D

Now, when a woman wants breast augmentation, she is shallow, insecure, feels inadequate, doesn't understand priorities, etc. (I'm collating the most common arguments, I'm not saying anybody here used those expressions). :rolleyes:

Can't a cigar just be a cigar?

I hardly think it's an issue just of money. When I get a new car, I'm not permanently altering and scarring my body. I can always get rid of the car.

Sure, I woman can get rid of her implants too, and some of them do. The scars will remain.

The implant surgery, although somewhat routine, is also potentially life-threatening. Paying more for one car than another isn't.

Look, in my city I have to have a car. At that point, it's only a matter of which car I choose. No woman has to have breast implants. That she gets them or not is her personal decision. As I said earlier, whatever works for her. Despite what Renata claims I said, I did not claim I am condemning any woman who chooses to have breast augmentation surgery. I do find it ironic, however, that most men seem to dislike fake looking boobs.

I happen not to like them. I hardly think that makes me a hypocrite for driving a well-handling car. They are unrelated issues.

AS

[renata]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist


Despite what Renata claims I said, I did not claim I am condemning any woman who chooses to have breast augmentation surgery. I do find it ironic, however, that most men seem to dislike fake looking boobs.



AS, my friend I am sorry if I implied that. My rant was NOT directed at you or any one person. More like that amorphous male Platonic form that inhabits Southern California. My apologies to you or anyone else if I was too harsh or personal :)

(just cranky that a certain someone did not call....)

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by renata

(just cranky that a certain someone did not call....)
Well there was probably good surf at Malibu. I mean really, what do you expect of him?

[AmateurScientist]

Originally posted by renata



Unfair- fine. But men coming down, condemning a woman who has decided to fulfill the standards men in general have themselves set is disungenuous and unfair.



You clearly misunderstood the point of my remarks. I was responding to your question about some men getting toupees or hair plugs. I find that on the pathetic side.

I do not find a woman who chooses to get breast implants to make herself feel better to be pathetic. I said earlier in this thread--twice now--whatever works for her is fine with me. I recognize that she is doing it for her own self-confidence.

How is my position disengenuous? My point about double standards was that men who are so concerned about hair loss as to go to drastic measures to try to fight nature are pathetic. I did not imply or claim that women taking radical steps to improve their appearances are similarly pathetic. Quite the opposite. They are held to a different standard from men. I give women more leeway in that regard. That was my point about unfairness. I am being "unfair" to men on this score.

Please put your feminist defensiveness back in its case.


I had a coworker once who would flash his Audi everywhere he went. And then he complained that he attracted shallow women. The two were not unrelated, but he did not seem to understand that. Not all men are like that- but I am getting tired of some men complaining about women letting themselves go, not exercising, etc and in the same breath lamenting that there are no warm, intelligent women left in the world. We are right here! We are not size 4 with perfect teeth and waist length hair. We are warm and bright and witty and loyal and open and trusting. But you will not meet us as you drive in your convertible, wind tousling remains of your hair, ogling six foot blondes on the beachside.


I'm a jerk because of your friend's behavior?

Who's being disingenuous?


And if we bleach our hair and become anorexic and get boob jobs and overdose on diet pills- don't nod knowingly about stupid women that only care about their appearance.

I never claimed this. I hate that some women do those things. I greatly prefer a much more natural look. Personally, I believe far too many women wear far too much makeup and diet too much.

Naturally colored hair is nearly always more attractive to me than store bought colors.

Man, you are being defensive. I never made any claims that such women were stupid.

AS

[scribble]

Well, at this point in the conversation this almost seems off-topic, but to address the original point:

I love breast implants. I love natural breasts. I love big boobs, little boobs, I love them all. I just love breasts, I'm not ashamed to admit it, and I've yet to meet one I didn't like.

So there, I'm out of the closet.

[renata]

Ummm-- AS see my earlier post. My rant was NOT directed at you :)



AP- damn you! :)

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by renata
Ummm-- AS see my earlier post. My rant was NOT directed at you :)

AP- damn you! :)
I did the SoCal thing for seven years. I never felt I fit in there, I'm not shallow enough.

[renata]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

I did the SoCal thing for seven years. I never felt I fit in there, I'm not shallow enough.


Well, I did the ice thing for most of my life, and it is too damn cold to care. :)

There are many very good people here. Interesting, not shallow. They, however do not return my phone calls. I wonder if it is something I said? :)

[Luciana]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist
I hardly think it's an issue just of money. When I get a new car, I'm not permanently altering and scarring my body. I can always get rid of the car.

Sure, I woman can get rid of her implants too, and some of them do. The scars will remain.

The scars are miniscule. One centimeter each, under the breast. Even a small tattoo, when being removed, can provide a larger scar.

The implant surgery, although somewhat routine, is also potentially life-threatening. Paying more for one car than another isn't.

I don't know about that. Ten years ago that kind of surgery required general anesthesia, nowadays I know this is not the case. I'm not sure about the potential risks. I have no data as to their frequency either.

Look, in my city I have to have a car. At that point, it's only a matter of which car I choose.

No, you don't. It's still a choice. You can move, buy an apartment downtown, ride a Segway, whatever. You can take a ride. But if you still feel like you have to have a car, than a 10-year-old can do. It's just meant to take you there.

But for many reasons, you can choose to pay more for the car of your liking. Be happy, I say.

No woman has to have breast implants. That she gets them or not is her personal decision.

All women are born with breasts. For many reasons, she decides to go through the effort of adapting her breasts to the size she wants.

I happen not to like them. I hardly think that makes me a hypocrite for driving a well-handling car. They are unrelated issues.


I don't think you're hypocrite. The analogy remains when I say that both the car owner and the future Ms. Big Boobs are choosing quality over anything else. The motivations are strikingly similar. And if not for the fear of hospitals and anything related, I'd expect many more people, men and women, to visit a plastic surgeon.

[renata]

And thirdtwin- congratulations on passing! Sorry if I came down a tad hard on you. :)

[Luciana]

Ooops. This is ThirdTwin we're talking about!

TT: I'm sorry if I vented against you, but it wasn't personal. It's just that I've heard arguments like yours repeated over and over and I think that mostly they stem from insensitivity and blind prejudice than anything else. If your sister is a stable woman, who wants breast implants, then I say she should get what she wants. If there are hidden issues? I don't know, but I can't say she does, and please don't make her feel guilty about something she really wants. People find happiness in their own strange ways. Let her be. :)

[Dr. Imago]

Oh my! Where to begin?

Let me just respond to the fundamental issue, Luciana, I think you have with this.

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
I hope she goes ahead with the surgery, I hope that she chooses a size that is compatible with her body and I wish she has a quick recovery.

She already has a breast size that is "compatible with her body". Furthermore, this was NEVER an issue before she moved to Southern California.

Also...

- She has no problem getting dates, and actually regularly turns down guys who are very interested in her (including a guy I recently met when I was out there about a month ago visiting who was very "into" her, and whom I also liked).
- She is already a tall, very attractive woman possesing many qualities that other women would be jealous of.
- She has a masters degree, and successfully runs, at the director level, an entire local office of a huge international business.
- She is intelligent, beautiful, and an all-around great, caring person.

I am concerned that she is getting "sucked in" to the idea of perfection at any cost, as do many women (and men) who feel inadequate with certain aspects of their physique. This is due primarily to the fact (IMHO) that she lives in a place that places a high premium on superficial qualities. This pressure is driven by other women and is an attempt to live up to some superficial, ideal body type. This is ludicrous "pack" behavior that has nothing to do with interpersonal qualities, values, and long-term compatible that two people should share - something that she is ultimately searching for in a life partner.

I am deeply concerned that she is rushing into this. Surgery (unlike buying a car) has inherent risks. This is more than just acquiring a status symbol. This is about altering one's body to fit some current idea of what's "in" and attractive. You can always sell a car when it goes out of fashion...

Disdain. Strong word. Why, you say? Because it shows weakness and buckling to societal pressure to fit some perceived notion of what is attractive, promulgated by the media and 5th Avenue marketing departments. I remember when Kate Moss was popular and there was a statistical "bubble" demonstrating an increase in eating disorders in women. Fortunately, that has fallen out of favor and we've also seen less reports of the same in the medical field (I can try to find a link for this; I had this in a recent Epidemiology class).

What I'm most concerned about is the lack of awareness of what is at the root of this. To paraphrase you, she wants big breasts to feel more attractive. My question is "why"? The conclusions I have come up with to answer that are that she is doing nothing more than buckling to superficial societal pressures. Is that wrong? Yes, in my book! What if next year everyone dyes their skin purple and all the guys "supposedly" want girls with purple skin? Will she want to do that too?

I'm very frustrated that our society has become more and more focused on superficiality: style over substance. I see this, on one level, as a huge indicator of this problem. And, I feel sorry that women have to undergo such drastic measures to feel attractive - especially when they already are both physically and in so many different, more important ways.

It used to be that dealing with adversity built character. Having a little insecurity about a particular physical defect was never as problematic as it seems to be in our currently hyper-obsessed pop culture. Likewise, our gross inflation of the perception of our own faults and flaws usually FAR outweighs what others think. This borders on the point of Body Dysmorphic Disorder for many.

No, I won't give up on this issue with her without continuing to advocate my position. However, if she is determined, I will naturally support her. After all, I am her brother. But, I have been there for other such issues in her life that have similarly frustrated me (and other members of our family) and have often heard much later "you were right, I should've listened to you". Perhaps I am tainted. But, I suspect many, MANY women go through these same exagerrated self-confidence issues and do something that, at least on this clearly non-scientific poll, the majority agree does not actually enhance their beauty.

-TT

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by scribble
Well, at this point in the conversation this almost seems off-topic, but to address the original point:

I love breast implants. I love natural breasts. I love big boobs, little boobs, I love them all. I just love breasts, I'm not ashamed to admit it, and I've yet to meet one I didn't like.

So there, I'm out of the closet.

A man after my own heart.

And it's not all about the boobs. The boobs are mearly a characteristic of a woman. One thing that serves to make her more attractive in addition to her other attractive qualities.

I say get the implants if you want them, but don't if you feel that you need them.

[Dr. Imago]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
A man after my own heart.

And it's not all about the boobs. The boobs are mearly a characteristic of a woman. One thing that serves to make her more attractive in addition to her other attractive qualities.

I'm not against boobs at all. Don't misread me. I just happen to find fake ones, usually installed for vanity purposes, to be an unecessary risk with the outcome of the majority of them looking fake and unattractive (and, no, they don't have to be nude to tell; just spend some time on any beach in SoCal or Miami - most are so cartoonish looking that they are just silly).

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
I say get the implants if you want them, but don't if you feel that you need them.

What's the difference between want and need with respect to this issue? Seriously?

-TT

[Tormac]

Luciana Nery asked
Why are you so quick to jump to the conclusion that a) she feels inadequate and b) she "defines" herself by her breast size?

And why "quick-fix"? What if wanting bigger breasts all there is to it? Can't a confident and independent woman just decide she wants to be even more attractive? I think it's possible. Successful people want even more success.

She will have the breast augmentation surgery and will feel happy. She will move on to other things in life because she got what she wanted. Like everybody else. What makes you believe that she's unhealthly obsessed with her self-image?

I will admit that I was jumping to conclusions about a person that I have never met, although much of this was implied by ThirdTwin’s first post. There is no doubt in my mind that all things being equal it is easier to go through life being attractive than not being attractive, and being more attractive is only more of a good thing. I think part of the debate is whether fakies are automatically more attractive.

From a purely aesthetic standpoint I dread the day when most women approach the same look. I am afraid that the notion of the Barbie doll as the highest standard of female beauty may be accepted to the point where everyone has everything tucked, pumped, dyed, smoothed, injected, and plastered. I was attributing to ThirdTwin’s sister’s desire for breast augmentation to this Barbie ideal, maybe unfairly.

If ThirdTwin’s sister just wants a breast augmentation, then she should get it regardless of what others think. Still it seem to me that this is one of those things for which there is no practical purpose except to enhance what others think about you. Is it the same as guys getting expensive sports cars, $1800 silk suits, or a hair-weave? It may be, if the goal is to impress others. I doubt that there is any vice that is limited to one gender. These things often just manifest themselves differently between men and women, but the root is usually the same.

I will say there is just something sensually pleasant about wearing a $100 silk shirt, or driving a sports car around the twisties. Are large breasts more comfortable than small breasts? Most well endowed female friends that I have had have claimed no. But what do I know about the subject, I’m just a dumb guy. :)

[DanishDynamite]

ThirdTwin:Disdain. Strong word. Why, you say? Because it shows weakness and buckling to societal pressure to fit some perceived notion of what is attractive, promulgated by the media and 5th Avenue marketing departments. This is the way it has been since the dawn of mankind. Or, if one strectches definitions a bit, since sex was invented. Each member of a species will do its utmost to appear as attractive to the opposite sex as possible. All manners of bluffing and cheating are involved. There basically is nothing superficial about this. It is evolution and it is to a large extent hardwired.

Your point that your sister has only decided to engage in this behaviour after she moved to an environment where such behaviour was the norm, is perfectly in line with the above.

Breast implants are really no different from heart transplants or antibiotics or fertility treatments. They are all "artificial" means of increasing the likelihood of a happy/successful/longlasting life.

[sorgoth]

You know, I really don't care either way.

I think she should be able to choose whatever she wants. I mean, it's her body, right? And it won't hurt anyone, right? And it'll make her happier, right?

So even if it IS buckling to social pressures, does it matter? As someone else said, it IS hardwired into our brains that, well, looking good feels good. Yes, that's a fairly shallow remark. But it's true. I know I feel much better about myself after exercise, wearing good clothes, ect. I assume it's the same for the opposite sex.

[Luciana]

Thirdtwin:
I am concerned that she is getting "sucked in" to the idea of perfection at any cost, as do many women (and men) who feel inadequate with certain aspects of their physique. This is due primarily to the fact (IMHO) that she lives in a place that places a high premium on superficial qualities.

I agree. Throughout our lives, our priorities change. She might go over this later on.

My prediction? She will have her surgery done. She will feel sexy and very attractive. If she spends too much time in the workplace, she might not. She will want to work out, fix her hair and dress to show off her new breasts (the novelty will soon wear off, I'm afraid). She will be more self-confident. She will be exuding success and sex appeal. She will meet many guys who want her for her boobs alone, but no problem, soon enough she will identify those. One day, this success and sex appeal will attract a truly nice guy, who loves her for what she is. He might even not enjoy the implants much. But he won't care, because it's not really important.

I am deeply concerned that she is rushing into this. Surgery (unlike buying a car) has inherent risks. This is more than just acquiring a status symbol. This is about altering one's body to fit some current idea of what's "in" and attractive. You can always sell a car when it goes out of fashion...

I could bet that she has read all about it. There's no rush. Maybe she always dreamt of having big breasts, but there's always something in the way. Now she has the money and examples around her, proving this is both easy and safe. Maybe your strong dislike of the idea of breast implants is not allowing you to understand her motivations.

Disdain. Strong word. Why, you say? Because it shows weakness and buckling to societal pressure to fit some perceived notion of what is attractive, promulgated by the media and 5th Avenue marketing departments.

We're still on the fancy car example here.

I remember when Kate Moss was popular and there was a statistical "bubble" demonstrating an increase in eating disorders in women. Fortunately, that has fallen out of favor and we've also seen less reports of the same in the medical field (I can try to find a link for this; I had this in a recent Epidemiology class).

I believe there's a huge distance between choosing plastic surgery, which is a well-thoughtout decision, and following the latest trend to the point of completely changing your eating habits and endangering your health. The latter more likely affected teenagers? Probably so.

What I'm most concerned about is the lack of awareness of what is at the root of this. To paraphrase you, she wants big breasts to feel more attractive. My question is "why"? The conclusions I have come up with to answer that are that she is doing nothing more than buckling to superficial societal pressures. Is that wrong? Yes, in my book! What if next year everyone dyes their skin purple and all the guys "supposedly" want girls with purple skin? Will she want to do that too?

Considering that your sister is an intelligent and successful woman, what makes you think that she will go down a slippery slope and will fall for every stupid trend there is in the world? Please! Why do you underestimate her like this? At least give her the benefit of doubt. If she's been reasonable so far, I'm sure she will weigh in and the prons and cons of her actions. Having big breasts is just another step for an ambitious woman, someone who fights for what she wants. As you said yourself, it won't change her in any significant way. At the very least, this surgery is only a relflection of previous changes.

I'm very frustrated that our society has become more and more focused on superficiality: style over substance. I see this, on one level, as a huge indicator of this problem. And, I feel sorry that women have to undergo such drastic measures to feel attractive - especially when they already are both physically and in so many different, more important ways.

It used to be that dealing with adversity built character. Having a little insecurity about a particular physical defect was never as problematic as it seems to be in our currently hyper-obsessed pop culture. Likewise, our gross inflation of the perception of our own faults and flaws usually FAR outweighs what others think. This borders on the point of Body Dysmorphic Disorder for many.

For every person who worries too much about their body image and develops Body Dysmorphic Disorder, there's another who couldn't care less and becomes morbidly obese.

Your paragraph still leads me back to the fancy car.

No, I won't give up on this issue with her without continuing to advocate my position. However, if she is determined, I will naturally support her. After all, I am her brother. But, I have been there for other such issues in her life that have similarly frustrated me (and other members of our family) and have often heard much later "you were right, I should've listened to you". Perhaps I am tainted. But, I suspect many, MANY women go through these same exagerrated self-confidence issues and do something that, at least on this clearly non-scientific poll, the majority agree does not actually enhance their beauty.


TT: As someone who has seen many plastic surgeries performed, because there's always a friend doing it... I can say that it's not as big a deal as you make it. I'm betting on a self-esteem boost, but nothing more than that. I don't even see how she can regret it in the future. At the very worst, she will see it as unnecessary.

[Beleth]

How to turn your sister off to breast implants:

1) Have her go to www.fark.com
2) Have her look for an article that has both the "Boobies" graphic and the string "NSFW" in the description
3) Don't have her click on the link. Instead, have her click on the discussion area via the number in parentheses to the right of the description
4) Have her read what normal, everyday men really think about implants.


Implants are best viewed when covered by a sweater. And since that's the only good situation for them, she's better off getting a Wonderbra or falsies or something and sticking those under her sweater instead.


(Oh - NSFW stands for "Not Safe For Work".)

[Dancing David]

I haven't read the thraed so I may be repeating.

Women with very large breatsts usualy would like to have smaller ones. I have known many large breatsed women and they find them to be a nuisance.
I have known two women who have had breast reduction surgery and are very happy with it.

But if your sister would like larger braets and she knows the midical risks, it is her choice.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by ThirdTwin
What's the difference between want and need with respect to this issue? Seriously?

-TT

Perhaps I should have used different words so I'd have been less subtle.

A woman who has good self-esteem, realizes that her potential is not determined by her bra size (or shape) who just wants to get some implants to fill out her dress, change their shape after nursing or to even out an imbalanced pair "wants" implants.

A woman who knows with surity, that she'll finally feel better about herself if only she had big boobs and thereby self-worth and attractiveness "needs" implants. Which ironically is the last thing she "needs" to improve her self image.

I should have stressed that the "need" part was meant to be ironic.

[RSLancastr]

Originally posted by _Q_
I thought about it for only a couple of seconds, and answered, "I'm a [her name] man!".I said the very same thing to my girlfriend after she said "You're such a breast man!"

She still says it frequently. It is strange. I can spend loads of time paying loving attention to every square inch of her body, but I never hear "you're such a back-of-the-knee man!" or "lower back man", or "temples man", or "[naughty bits] man..."

Back to the thread topic: to me, it is similar to my attitude on makeup. If I can tell a woman has makeup on, she's wearing too much.

Similarly, if a breast looks like an implant, it was done poorly. I assume there is such a thing as a real-looking implant, but if there is, I've yet to see it (which would be a good thing).

Also, I haven't read the entire thread, but hopefully it has been mentioned that reconstructive surgery (after a mastectomy, for example) can be a wonderful thing for a woman's delf-image.

Sure, in an ideal world, she wouldn't care, and would not be judged, for having a breast (or both) missing or disfigured. But this is not an ideal world.

[Patricio Elicer]

Originally posted by ThirdTwin
For me personally, it's gotten to the point where I look at women with breast impants almost with disdain.I surely do as well, from the sexual standpoint. I find breast implants terribly unattractive. Even natural big boobs are not my preference at all.

Thin waists and rather flat chests are very graceful IMO, I feel strongly attracted to those types of women.

I admit that I'm also prone to jump to negative conclusions about personality on breast implantees, though I know it's a wrong thing

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Patricio Elicer

I admit that I'm also prone to jump to negative conclusions about personality on breast implantees, though I know it's a wrong thing
Why is this wrong? According to the PC mindset, we should appreciate people for "who they really are" and not their appearance. So if a woman naturally had small breasts, or large breasts, well it's not "her" doing, it's just her genes. But that a woman CHOSE to have breast implants legitimately tells you something about her personailty and psychology, doesn't it?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

Why is this wrong? According to the PC mindset, we should appreciate people for "who they really are" and not their appearance. So if a woman naturally had small breasts, or large breasts, well it's not "her" doing, it's just her genes. But that a woman CHOSE to have breast implants legitimately tells you something about her personailty and psychology, doesn't it?

God I love this forum. Whether or not to get breast implants enters the Free Will arena. ;)

[Patricio Elicer]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
But that a woman CHOSE to have breast implants legitimately tells you something about her personailty and psychology, doesn't it? Yes, it surely does. She may suffer from psycological disorders, like low self steem and insecurity. Most bodybuilders may have similar problems.

But I don't think those are negative traits. To me, a "negative trait" is something that goes against, or contradicts, the very core of human nature. And here I'm precisely thinking on brainless people and shallow people.

Women who choose to have a breast implant may be brainless or shallow,... but,.... may be not.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

Why is this wrong? According to the PC mindset, we should appreciate people for "who they really are" and not their appearance. So if a woman naturally had small breasts, or large breasts, well it's not "her" doing, it's just her genes. But that a woman CHOSE to have breast implants legitimately tells you something about her personailty and psychology, doesn't it?

Not always, Arctic. Sometimes a boob job or a nose job or hair transplant is just the maintenance choice of a psychologically, emotionally and physically healthy person wanting to keep a good appearance. I know of one woman who had breast implants to streamline her stature. She was tired of having to mix/match bathing suits and business suits, to complement her physique. Personnally, I've never had a problem with
vanity unless it becomes conceit.

What does it say about a woman who gets breast implants by choice? I'm not sure. But, with all the attention given to the perfect female body by men's magazines, women's magazines, commercials and advertisements,and music videos, the message seems to be that you can't get a man's attention unless you are big busted. And, if that's a fallacy, then why is there so much effort by advertisers to use a woman's body to sell everything from cars to after-shave?

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Ladyhawk

What does it say about a woman who gets breast implants by choice? I'm not sure. But, with all the attention given to the perfect female body by men's magazines, women's magazines, commercials and advertisements,and music videos, the message seems to be that you can't get a man's attention unless you are big busted. And, if that's a fallacy, then why is there so much effort by advertisers to use a woman's body to sell everything from cars to after-shave?
I'm not saying this aspect of modern culture doesn't exist. I'm just saying that by making her choice, the woman with breast implants has chosen to participate in it, and I see no problem in using that choice to characterize her.

[RSLancastr]

Originally posted by renata
Well, I did the ice thing for most of my life, and it is too damn cold to care. :)You know, skimming through a thread can be an intriguing thing. I read this post, and was trying to figure out what "the ice thing" is, in regards to breasts.

Wow, was my mind a-wandering! :D

[Dancing David]

Hey I thought it was fun to die my hair dark and wash the gray away. Made me look younger but then it grew out and I didn't obsess about it.

[Landis]

Tits are like cake. Some girls got a little more icing on theirs, but I just want a piece of cake.

[American]

They just make women look old, I think. Like grandma's rack. Chest means very little compared to the rest of the package.

If you're going to get any surgery, get lipo.

[IPFreeley]

It sounds like the original poster's sister wants a bigger chest to 'catch up' to everyone else; peer pressure. I've several thoughts on this.
She may be thinking about all the advantages, but not the disadvantages. I've known two big chested women and they wished for smaller boobs. I guess unwanted attention from guys is one and the comfort factor is one with wearing ill-fitting bras that tug and not being able to wear certain clothes like maybe a strapless dress or bikini top and back trouble.
A likely scenario I can think of is the lady gets bigger boobs and she feels more feminine and sexy. Once the thrill wears off and she reverts to feeling the same way about her body, she may then think her hips are too wide or her legs are fat or she has a beer belly and then more body modification is desired. I strongly suspect there's esteem issues related to this and of course, the operation won't do anything to fix this.
Remember that billions of dollars are spent on diet and exercise goods.

[arcticpenguin]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=571&ncid=751&e=1&u=/nm/20031003/hl_nm/implants_suicide_dc


NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - The results of a new study suggest that women who receive cosmetic breast implants are at increased risk for suicide.
...
However, the authors did find an "excess" of suicides among implant patients--10 to be exact. This means that implant patients were about three times more likely than other women to commit suicide. Deaths due to suicide were most pronounced in the first five years
...
The researchers emphasize, however, that their study does not prove a cause-and-effect relationship between cosmetic breast implants and suicide. It may have more to do with the type of women who choose cosmetic breast implantation. "Underlying (mental problems) represents a possible explanation," they write.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Some things in my life have changed since my initial responses to this thread... an not to appeal to authority, but do any of you know anyone with implants.

I do.

[LuxFerum]

me too:cool:

[Dr. Imago]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Some things in my life have changed since my initial responses to this thread... an not to appeal to authority, but do any of you know anyone with implants.

I do.

And... (?)

[Eos of the Eons]

I heard the guy that puts Victoria's Secret mags together hates fake boobs-saying that they don't look and act the same, especially in his products. Maybe he's just mad that the fake boobs don't need all the magic built into the underwear to make them look better? He doesn't like how fakies look in his underwear anyways.

My man is a self described breast man, but I am still more worried about my body as a whole. I want to be in shape rather than have big breasts. I had bigger breasts while breastfeeding, and since I'm small, they made me look fat IMO. I think fakies would definitely look comical on my five foot frame.

I will envy chicks with real and nice boobs, but seeing the obvious fakes makes me wonder how any guy would find those things attractive. They stick out and don't move. My husband loves them bouncy. He asks me to just jump up and down, but I feel silly, so he can watch the man show and watch those silly women bounce. We both noted how one girl's boobs didn't move when she jumped. Just her hair did.

I don't respect a woman with fakies. If she can't get a man any other way, then she can't be very interesting or whatever she is lacking (self esteem?) She must be lacking something, if it was just boobs she lacked and got normal looking ones, then that's not so bad, it's those obviously big and hard looking unbouncy things that I can't respect a woman touting.

I had a friend who got implants. I didn't even notice. She had so many other issues I wondered why she hadn't fixed those first. At least they were natural looking and not sticking out her chest a mile. She had to tell me, and I suddenly remembered how small they were-like just nipples and not much else. Her fakies weren't any bigger than my natural, and that wasn't so bad.

I would consider a breast lift before implants myself. And a tummy tuck after having 3 kids. Can't afford either, so I won't worry about it.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by ThirdTwin
And... (?)

Well, I can't speak to long term health issues, but I can speak about aestetics.

A friend of mine has implants. I have seen and felt them and they are magnificent. For a time a few years ago she had lost a lot of weight and her boobs looked very fake, but recently she's put on a few pounds and there's a certain roundness and realness to them.

I don't advocate implants, and... as in some cases they wind up looking like grotesque characters of breasts... I would recommend against getting them... but if a woman get's the right implants and the right doctor I say go for it.

Don't get me started on the whole lipo/collagen/saline vs. personality debate though as I will defend to the end that bad personality + cosmetic surgery still = someone I don't want to know.

[WildCat]

If a woman wants them badly enough, she should get them. I'm not a fan of them though, I'm a leg man.

Women are much harder for a man to please, since the sexiest part of a man's body is his wallet. But no one offers wallet implants, since fake $$ isn't nearly as attractive to women as fake boobs are to a man.
:(

[Eos of the Eons]

Not! I didn't marry for money, he had a cute butt and a great kind nature. That will never make him rich, but makes me very happy. Yes, that's all natural too.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by WildCat
If a woman wants them badly enough, she should get them. I'm not a fan of them though, I'm a leg man.

Women are much harder for a man to please, since the sexiest part of a man's body is his wallet. But no one offers wallet implants, since fake $$ isn't nearly as attractive to women as fake boobs are to a man.
:(
Well, actually....

I heard this story on NPR several weeks ago about a company that sells phony ATM receipts. You're trying to pick up a babe in a bar and she won't give you her number. So you volunteer to give her your number and reach in your pocket for scrap paper, which just happens to be this ATM receipt with a couple more zeroes than your genuine item.

This presumably wouldn't work for long-term relationships.

[Eos of the Eons]

This presumably wouldn't work for long-term relationships.


Gee why not? I mean conning is a great way to build a life of lies on. I know some great cons that get away with it for years.

The movie 'phone booth' comes to mind...that sorta had a happy ending

[MoeFaux]

Wow, do I dislike breast implants.
I've seen plenty of implants after working in a strip club, and it's just such a bummer to see such cartoonish breasts.

I don't like breast implants because:
The majority of women get round large implants. They are obviously fake. And they feel it, too. However, teardrop implants look real. And I like that. I knew I girl who had the most magnificent breasts I've ever seen, and by golly, they turned out to be fake. I still loved her. That was a hell of a boob job.
So I hate the obvious fakeness.

My second major issue with breast implants is that you can't do certain things to them. Fake breasts are just for looking. No, you say? You can't be rough with them. And that's no fun. That's just sad.

My third big issue is women with gorgeous breasts ruining them by getting implants. Oh, how awful it is to see a perfeclty lovely full B cup go under the knife and come back looking like cartoon breasts. It's a heartbreaker.

Oh, and the rippling. That's all I'll say about it.

There are some great things about them, though. For breast reconstruction, for women who have no breasts to begin with, for breasts that just aren't right.

I'm small breasted but have been blessed with absolute perfection. In high school I complained about my size, but after seeing hundreds of breasts I can say, I'm very lucky and I'm happy with mine. Sometimes it's not size, but quality.

I have a friend who was very small breasted and after two children, her chest was shot. It looked bad. She got implants, and is just so happy to have fullness again. That's a example of implants being used for good.

There's great things about them, theres no doubt. But sometimes the reasons are wrong. And sometimes women are ruining something wonderful.

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by MoeFaux
I'm small breasted but have been blessed with absolute perfection. In high school I complained about my size, but after seeing hundreds of breasts I can say, I'm very lucky and I'm happy with mine. Sometimes it's not size, but quality.A picture paints a thousand words ;)

Tommy.
(If not I'll just read your post again. :) )

[athon]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
A picture paints a thousand words ;)

Tommy.
(If not I'll just read your post again. :) )

Does you father know you're reading such smut? Now go to your room, and think about what you've been reading young man! Think long and hard about it...

um...

Athon

[BillyJoe]

:eek: :what: :eek:

Tommy
(You are a bad influence, Athon :) )

[sorgoth]

Originally posted by iankaplan
I find breast implants to be a major turnoff.

I don't, as long as it doesn't LOOK fake.

[Iamme]

Count my vote to read that I hate ANYthing fake. Period. Fake fingernails, fake hair, fake breasts, even fake teeth. However, I can live with teeth that are permanently rooted to posts, and I LOVE a beautiful woman all decked out in mascara, if applied properly. I love Shania Twain in that video on a motorcycle! VavavaROOOOOM!!!!:D