Greater Horn of Africa: The Jihad Begins

[SteveGrenard]

After months of posturing, skirmishes and failed attempts at arriving at a peaceful or diplomatic solution the much dreaded conflict provoked by Islamic militias committed to jihad (as a means of Islamicizing the greater horn of Africa and moving south from there) has begun in earnest. This once again exemplifies the inherently violent nature of Islam in spite of protests by muslims that their religion is peaceful.



MOGADISHU, Somalia: Ethiopian and Somali government forces launched fighter jets and artillery against advancing Islamic militants Sunday, dramatically escalating a battle with its roots in religious and historical conflicts as well as the U.S. war on terror.

Ethiopia confirmed the attacks, the first time it has acknowledged that its troops are fighting in Somalia, though witnesses have been reporting their presence for weeks. No reliable casualty reports were immediately available.

"After too much patience, the Ethiopian government has taken a self-defensive measure and has begun counterattacking the aggressive extremist forces of the (Islamic militia) and foreign terrorist groups," said Ethiopia's foreign affairs spokesman, Solomon Abebe.

Ethiopia, a largely Christian nation that supports Somalia's U.N.-backed government, dropped bombs on several towns held by the Council of Islamic Courts and its soldiers used artillery and tanks elsewhere.

"They are cowards," said Sheik Mohamoud Ibrahim Suley, an official with Somalia's Council of Islamic Courts. "They are afraid of the face-to-face war and resorted to airstrikes. I hope God will help us shoot down their planes."

To Sheik Suley, I say "yeah, you got that right..." The faster they blast the Islamic militias back to their own theocracies the better off it will be.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/12/24/africa/AF_GEN_Somalia.php

And what are the Ethiopians and Somalis Fighting?


The Islamic group's strict and often severe interpretation of Islam raises memories of Afghanistan's Taliban regime, which was ousted by a U.S.-led campaign for harboring Osama bin Laden. The U.S. government says four al-Qaida leaders, believed to be behind the 1998 bombing of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, have become leaders in Somalia's Islamic militia.


Enough said.

[Skeptic]

Oh, hush. Islam is the religion of peace.

As long as the Jihadis get everything they want, that is.

[SteveGrenard]

Oh, hush. Islam is the religion of peace.

As long as the Jihadis get everything they want, that is.

The rhetoric coming out of the Union of Islamic Courts muslim militia chiefs is considerably more revealing than you'd expect. Predictably if and once the muslims conquer ALL of Somalia and Ethiopia, they will move on to Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda unless they can be repelled or, preferably, squished.


ZANZIBAR, TANZANIA - The Islamist forces in Somalia expanded their offensive on Saturday, witnesses said, and began attacking the seat of the transitional government from a new direction.

According to residents in the Bakal area north of Baidoa, the inland city where the transitional government is based, Islamist forces rushed in with several dozen pickup trucks bristling with heavy guns. Before this, their attacks had been limited to the south and the east of Baidoa, where they met stiff resistance and suffered many casualties.

They didn't even stop to ask if the locals would be willing to convert ti Islam before firing on them.


Meanwhile, in Mogadishu, the seaside capital of Somalia and the Islamists' stronghold, the Islamist defense chief put out a public call for Muslim fighters worldwide to join the war against the transitional government and the Ethiopian forces protecting it. The Islamists vowed to turn their country into a third front of jihad, after Afghanistan and Iraq.

"Our country is open to Muslims worldwide," said the defense chief, Yusuf Mohamed Siad. "Let them fight in Somalia and wage jihad."

http://www.startribune.com/722/story/895455.html

[Polaris]

Oh, hush. Islam is the religion of peace and white knuckle terror.

As long as the Jihadis get everything they want, that is.

Fixed it for you.

[fuelair]

Strategic bombing has nothing to do with fears - you wipe crap off your bottom you don't carefully pick it away.

[Dave1001]

Fascism will come to America carrying a cross and a flag, or some such thing. ;)

[CFLarsen]

After months of posturing, skirmishes and failed attempts at arriving at a peaceful or diplomatic solution the much dreaded conflict provoked by Islamic militias committed to jihad (as a means of Islamicizing the greater horn of Africa and moving south from there) has begun in earnest.

You really think religious wars is a new phenomenon on Africa's Horn? :rolleyes:

[SteveGrenard]

You really think religious wars is a new phenomenon on Africa's Horn? :rolleyes:

Where have I said this? I am sorry you are bored by this. Checking my job description, nowhere can I find it is my job to either entertain or amuse you. Why don't you go back to the thread on sexualizing young girls?

On Sunday, Abdulrahim Ali Modei, the Islamists’ information minister, conceded at a news conference that many of the Islamist troops had been killed, but he did not sound discouraged.

“These are victories,” he said. “Our soldiers are in paradise now.”

New York Times Today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/25/world/africa/25somalia.html?th&emc=th

A very brief history from the above URL:

We’re so sick of war,” said Ahmed Issa, a shopkeeper in Beledweyne. “We’ll obey anybody.”

Much of Somalia has been mired in anarchy since 1991, when the central government collapsed, setting off a long, nasty interclan war. While the United Nations and donor countries struggled to get a new government on its feet, a grass-roots movement of Islamic courts began to gain power.


edited to add:


Nairobi - Somalia's encircled interim government said on Monday that it had closed all land, air and sea borders of the Horn of African nation.

The government is encircled by Council of Islamic Court fighters in its south-central provincial base of Baidoa and has no control over its borders.

"The government has decided to close our borders, air space and sea space," said government spokesperson Abdirahman Dinari.

"We are requesting the international community, especially neighbouring states, to help us effect this."

The government is defended by neighbouring Ethiopia, which began launching air strikes against the Islamic fighters on Sunday.

http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/News/0,,2-11-1447_2048653,00.html

[Charlie Monoxide]

A carpet bombing of "The God Delusion" translated in the local languages might help a bit .....

Charlie (rocking in a free [from religion] world) Monoxide

[Gurdur]

....Predictably if and once the muslims conquer ALL of Somalia and Ethiopia, they will move on to Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda unless ...
This is rank hysteria. While I personally dislike the Islamic Courts of Somalia, they haven't got a hope in hell of conquering Ethiopia - they simply lack the means and men; as for Kenya, the Somali brigands have always been a problem on Kenya's northern border, and likely will be for a long time, yet the Somalis haven't got a hope in hell of conquering Kenya (same lack of means and men), let alone Tanzania, sheeeeeeeeeeesh. I mean, once you start hysterically talking about the Islamists of Somalia conquering Tanzania, I just think you haven't got the slightest clue about the geography there or the state of Tanzanian military preparedness.

[Hutch]

This is rank hysteria. While I personally dislike the Islamic Courts of Somalia, they haven't got a hope in hell of conquering Ethiopia - they simply lack the means and men; as for Kenya, the Somali brigands have always been a problem on Kenya's northern border, and likely will be for a long time, yet the Somalis haven't got a hope in hell of conquering Kenya (same lack of means and men), let alone Tanzania, sheeeeeeeeeeesh. I mean, once you start hysterically talking about the Islamists of Somalia conquering Tanzania, I just think you haven't got the slightest clue about the geography there or the state of Tanzanian military preparedness.

Gurdur's nailed it. Ethopia has a large and experienced military (from fighting Eritria the past decade or more) and can take care of itself.

Politics and religion are interwined here and trying to sort out one (Islam) from the other (political control of ports, trade, resources) is simplistic in the extreme.

IMHO as always..

[SteveGrenard]

This is not rank hysteria, it is an assesment of their game plan. Islam already has all of North Africa west of the Horn, they have made inroads in West Africa in Nigeria and if we listen to the hysterical rantings of al Zawahiri and others it is obvious they want an African caliphate. Whether they suceed or not, I agree, you guys are right. The lesson here is not that the islamicists are going to succeed, they won't as you say. The lesson is how many hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians/children will suffer and die as a result of their escapades or ambitions.

[CFLarsen]

This is rank hysteria. While I personally dislike the Islamic Courts of Somalia, they haven't got a hope in hell of conquering Ethiopia - they simply lack the means and men; as for Kenya, the Somali brigands have always been a problem on Kenya's northern border, and likely will be for a long time, yet the Somalis haven't got a hope in hell of conquering Kenya (same lack of means and men), let alone Tanzania, sheeeeeeeeeeesh. I mean, once you start hysterically talking about the Islamists of Somalia conquering Tanzania, I just think you haven't got the slightest clue about the geography there or the state of Tanzanian military preparedness.

The Islamic Courts Union is a hodgepodge of clans, each with their own agenda, and their own interpretation of Islam. They form no real threat to the real armies of Tanzania, Uganda, and Kenya.

Thus, it isn't just rank hysteria, it is blatant ignorance on Steve's behalf.

Or, perhaps, Steve actually knows what the situation is, but just chooses to misrepresent the facts, in order to gain support his crusade.

It would not be the first time Steve has been caught lying. Far from it.

[CFLarsen]

This is not rank hysteria, it is an assesment of their game plan. Islam already has all of North Africa west of the Horn, they have made inroads in West Africa in Nigeria and if we listen to the hysterical rantings of al Zawahiri and others it is obvious they want an African caliphate. Whether they suceed or not, I agree, you guys are right. The lesson here is not that the islamicists are going to succeed, they won't as you say. The lesson is how many hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians/children will suffer and die as a result of their escapades or ambitions.

The lesson here is that your ignorance knows no boundaries.

Just because people are Muslims, they are not necessarily the rabid Islamicists found in some parts of Ethiopia, far from it.

What is the dominant religion in Ethiopia?

[SteveGrenard]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Africa

For religious breakdown of all of Africa.

but Ethiopia has its own page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Ethiopia

Islam ranks second after Christianity in Ethiopia.

[CFLarsen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Africa

For religiopus breakdown of all of Africa.

Ethiopia has its own page:

What is the dominant religion in Ethiopia?

[CFLarsen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Africa

For religious breakdown of all of Africa.

but Ethiopia has its own page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Ethiopia

Islam ranks second after Christianity in Ethiopia.

Thank you.

So, Muslims are fighting Muslims. A Jihad against....Muslims?

:rolleyes:

[SteveGrenard]

What is the dominant religion in Ethiopia?

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church. Why?

[CFLarsen]

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church. Why?


Religions:
Muslim 45%-50%, Ethiopian Orthodox 35%-40%, animist 12%, other 3%-8%
CIA World Fact Book (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/et.html#People)

Any comment?

[SteveGrenard]

Not wrong. Your question was what is the dominant religion in Ethiopia? You cannot define "dominant" by a plus or minus 5%-10% shift in population based on an estimate by the CIA. Ha. The government of
Ethiopia would disagree with you.

More relevant in this situation is the religious make-up of Somalia which is listed as being virtually 100% muslim. So yes, you have muslims fighting muslims with Ethiopia defending its own borders against incursions by the Union of Islamic Courts. They are also allies of the non UIC muslims and
defending them. If you think Ethiopia has nothing better to do than waste its manpower and bullets on this you are mistaken. They are flying air raids against the UIC forces as far away as Mogadishu in order to defeat them.

I did not characterize the conflict as jihad, the UIC has. Get your attributions straight. There are plenty of quotes out there attributing the jihad statement to them. You are lying by trying to attribute that to me. As usual.

And as usual as an apologist for islam, you overlook the terrible cost in human lives this conflict will cause because one group, the UIC, wants to shariaize Somalia and then move on from there. I grant the strong possibility they will not suceed but their defeat will come at an enormous price. Just another example of how Islam embraces violence.

[CFLarsen]

Not wrong. Your question was what is the dominant religion in Ethiopia? You cannot define "dominant" by a plus or minus 5%-10% shift in population based on an estimate by the CIA. Ha. The government of Ethiopia would disagree with you.

I place a hell of a lot more trust in the CIA's figures than in the government of Ethiopia. And, it isn't just the CIA's figures. From the links Wikipedia pointed to:

The country has an area of 472,000 square miles, and its population was approximately 74 million. An estimated 40 to 45 percent of the population belonged to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church (EOC). The EOC was predominant in the northern regions of Tigray and Amhara.

Approximately 45 percent of the population was Sunni Muslim. Islam was most prevalent in the eastern Somali and Afar regions, as well as in all the major parts of Oromia in the east and south.
US Dept. of State (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71301.htm)

Religions:
Muslim 45%-50%, Ethiopian Orthodox 35%-40%, animist 12%, other 3%-8%
CIA Fact Book (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/et.html)

Wipe your face, Steve. There's egg all over it.

More relevant in this situation is the religious make-up of Somalia which is listed as being virtually 100% muslim. So yes, you have muslims fighting muslims with Ethiopia defending its own borders against incursions by the Union of Islamic Courts. They are also allies of the non UIC muslims and
defending them. If you think Ethiopia has nothing better to do than waste its manpower and bullets on this you are mistaken. They are flying air raids against the UIC forces as far away as Mogadishu in order to defeat them.

So, Muslims fighting Muslims?

I did not characterize the conflict as jihad, the UIC has. Get your attributions straight. There are plenty of quotes out there attributing the jihad statement to them. You are lying by trying to attribute that to me. As usual.

You open this thread with the title "jihad". You are the liar here, Steve. As usual.

And as usual as an apologist for islam,

Nonsense. I point out the flaws in your argument. That does not make me an apologist for Islam.

you overlook the terrible cost in human lives this conflict will cause because one group, the UIC, wants to shariaize Somalia and then move on from there.

Nonsense. I point out the flaws in your argument. That does not make me overlook any cost in human lives.

I grant the strong possibility they will not suceed but their defeat will come at an enormous price. Just another example of how Islam embraces violence.

Can you make up your mind? First, you say that the UIC will move on to other countries after defeating Ethiopia, now you say there's not much hope they will succeed.

You are babbling.

[SteveGrenard]

Religions:
Muslim 45%-50%, Ethiopian Orthodox 35%-40%, animist 12%, other 3%-8%
CIA Fact Book

Wipe your face, Steve. There's egg all over it.

Place all the trust you want in the CIA's figures. I don't object to them even though I question how they know what they are in this particular region.
I suggets they are best guess estimates.

Show me where the CIA says Islam is the "dominant" religion in Ethiopia. Show me where dominance is defined by numbers, even a 5% or 10% plurality. You asked for the "dominant" religion in Ethiopia. The Orthdox Church is the "dominant" religion in that country for a multitude of reasons, none of which is related to the fact that they may be equal to or even have 5or 10% lesser numbers than the muslims. You equate everything with the nice neat little world you live in where a simple majority is required to pass, remove or change a law. This is Africa, not Denmark. A smaller group, even a much smaller one, can be dominant over a larger one here. It is a foreign concept in Denmark that whoever has the guns has the dominance but not in Africa. Whoever controls the government and defends it has the dominance and they're the ones with the guns.

When you preface a question with "dominant" expect to be answered correctly. I answered you correctly.

[SteveGrenard]

Larsen:You open this thread with the title "jihad". You are the liar here, Steve. As usual.

After reading that this was the term used by the jihadists, I certainly opened the thread with this title. You either are lying or you failed to see the reference.You do need to read the links as I am constrained from re-publishing them in their entirety on this forum. If I did you would complain and get them removed.

so in case you missed it:

"Our country is open to Muslims worldwide," said the defense chief, Yusuf Mohamed Siad. "Let them fight in Somalia and wage jihad."

[CFLarsen]

Place all the trust you want in the CIA's figures. I don't object to them even though I question how they know what they are in this particular region.
I suggets they are best guess estimates.

You don't object to them, yet you dismiss them.

:hb:

Show me where the CIA says Islam is the "dominant" religion in Ethiopia. Show me where dominance is defined by numbers, even a 5% or 10% plurality. You asked for the "dominant" religion in Ethiopia. The Orthdox Church is the "dominant" religion in that country for a multitude of reasons, none of which is related to the fact that they may be equal to or even have 5or 10% lesser numbers than the muslims. You equate everything with the nice neat little world you live in where a simple majority is required to pass, remove or change a law. This is Africa, not Denmark. A smaller group, even a much smaller one, can be dominant over a larger one here. It is a foreign concept in Denmark that whoever has the guns has the dominance but not in Africa. Whoever controls the government and defends it has the dominance and they're the ones with the guns.

When you preface a question with "dominant" expect to be answered correctly. I answered you correctly.

Nonsense. You want to argue that 35-40% is larger then 45-50%, go right ahead.

:hb:

After reading that this was the term used by the jihadists, I certainly opened the thread with this title. You either are lying or you failed to see the reference.You do need to read the links as I am constrained from re-publishing them in their entirety on this forum. If I did you would complain and get them removed.

so in case you missed it:

You have been on a crusade against these "jihadists" for months now. You are not fooling anyone with this nonsense.

[Pyrrho]

Could one of you define "jihad"? Thanks.

[Zygar]

Jihad, crusade. Two sides of the same coin.

[SteveGrenard]

Could one of you define "jihad"? Thanks.

In the context of this thread jihad = holy war

[SteveGrenard]

You don't object to them, yet you dismiss them.


Show me where I "dismiss" them. I questionned how they got the numbers they publish.



Nonsense. You want to argue that 35-40% is larger then 45-50%, go right ahead.

A plurality of 5 to 10% does not translate into the "dominant" position. Ethiopians are not out conducting polls/votes on every issue. The dominant power and force in Ethiopia is populated by members of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. It has nothing to do with numbers. You asked for the "dominant" group by religious persuasion. I gave it to you. I would still like to know why this is important to you or this conversation?


You have been on a crusade against these "jihadists" for months now. You are not fooling anyone with this nonsense.

For 5 years actually, since 9-11-01 to be exact. And you are not opposed to jihadists? You support Islam's right or privilege to invoke jihad or holy war? I don't know who "these" jihadists are you refer to ....but I am opposed to using holy war by any group to achieve a position of power or dominance or to inflict terrorist inspired fear.



What does the Arabic word jihad mean?

One answer came last week, when Saddam Hussein had his Islamic leaders appeal to Muslims worldwide to join his jihad to defeat the "wicked Americans" should they attack Iraq; then he himself threatened the United States with jihad.

As this suggests, jihad is "holy war." Or, more precisely: It means the legal, compulsory, communal effort to expand the territories ruled by Muslims at the expense of territories ruled by non-Muslims.

The purpose of jihad, in other words, is not directly to spread the Islamic faith but to extend sovereign Muslim power (faith, of course, often follows the flag). Jihad is thus unabashedly offensive in nature, with the eventual goal of achieving Muslim dominion over the entire globe.

Jihad did have two variant meanings through the centuries, one more radical, one less so. The first holds that Muslims who interpret their faith differently are infidels and therefore legitimate targets of jihad. (This is why Algerians, Egyptians and Afghans have found themselves, like Americans and Israelis, so often the victims of jihadist aggression.) The second meaning, associated with mystics, rejects the legal definition of jihad as armed conflict and tells Muslims to withdraw from the worldly concerns to achieve spiritual depth.

Jihad in the sense of territorial expansion has always been a central aspect of Muslim life.

That's how Muslims came to rule much of the Arabian Peninsula by the time of the Prophet Muhammad's death in 632. It's how, a century later, Muslims had conquered a region from Afghanistan to Spain. Subsequently, jihad spurred and justified Muslim conquests of such territories as India, Sudan, Anatolia, and the Balkans.

Today, jihad is the world's foremost source of terrorism, inspiring a worldwide campaign of violence by self-proclaimed jihadist groups:

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/990

[Ralph]

In the context of this thread jihad = holy war


Maybe a better example of jihad would be CFLarsens obsessive "campaign" against every single thing that you post.

Like most religious wars--it seems so silly & pointless.

[Zygar]

Maybe a better example of jihad would be CFLarsens obsessive "campaign" against every single thing that you post.

Like most religious wars--it seems so silly & pointless.

I think it goes both ways.

Mostly, I think Claus just likes to harrass the predictable ones. T'ai Chi was a perfect example, but he seems to have taken a leave of absence.

[Ralph]

[QUOTE=Zygar;2204279]I think it goes both ways.

Really? I can't think of a single situation where Claus posted a news article and was subjected to a personal attack from Steve.

It seems pretty one-sided to me.

[Zygar]

I think it goes both ways.

Really? I can't think of a single situation where Claus posted a news article and was subjected to a personal attack from Steve.

It seems pretty one-sided to me.

What I mean is that Steve is on a Crusade, and Claus is on a Jihad against Steve's Crusade. It's all just one big holy war.

[CFLarsen]

Show me where I "dismiss" them. I questionned how they got the numbers they publish.

Nonsense. You refuse to acknowledge the fact that the dominant religion in Ethiopia is Islam.

A plurality of 5 to 10% does not translate into the "dominant" position. Ethiopians are not out conducting polls/votes on every issue. The dominant power and force in Ethiopia is populated by members of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. It has nothing to do with numbers. You asked for the "dominant" group by religious persuasion. I gave it to you. I would still like to know why this is important to you or this conversation?

Because it shoots down your claim that these "jihadists" are waging war against non-Muslims. As your own sources clearly show, they are also waging war against other Muslims.

For 5 years actually, since 9-11-01 to be exact.

Why have you just recently begun to rant against them here, on this forum?

And you are not opposed to jihadists? You support Islam's right or privilege to invoke jihad or holy war? I don't know who "these" jihadists are you refer to ....but I am opposed to using holy war by any group to achieve a position of power or dominance or to inflict terrorist inspired fear.

I am referring to the jihadists you are referring to. :rolleyes:

[Ralph]

[QUOTE=Zygar;2204337 It's all just one big holy war.[/QUOTE]

I rest my case.

[Polaris]

Thank you.

So, Muslims are fighting Muslims. A Jihad against....Muslims?

:rolleyes:

Yeah, that's never happened before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Iraq_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemen_civil_war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Northern_Alliance

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/ladin.htm

For this last link, this is the operative paragraph:

Al-Qa'ida's goal is to "unite all Muslims and to establish a government which follows the rule of the Caliphs." Bin Laden has stated that the only way to establish the Caliphate is by force. Al-Qa'ida's goal, therefore, is to overthrow nearly all Muslim governments, which are viewed as corrupt, to drive Western influence from those countries, and eventually to abolish state boundaries.

Could one of you define "jihad"? Thanks.

Think "Kampf" in German. Like "jihad" it means "struggle" to the apologists, but in reality it means the brutal murder and torture of everybody who disagrees with you, including (indeed especially) those who claim to be identified with you but diverge in small seemingly innocuous ways.

[Merko]

Uh. Somalia has been torn by war for years and years. What these fundamentalists did, except harassing people for watching football and similar grave sins, is to reduce the violence by fighting off some of the war lords. Unfortunately, the neighbouring countries can't have this, it seems, so they are mounting for war.

[Merko]

Jihad is pretty synonomous with "crusade". Except "crusade" is probably more literal.

[steverino]

The lesson here is that your ignorance knows no boundaries.

Had I responded to you this way, I would have gotten warned or kicked out of the forum for being uncivil. For a guy with over 30,000 posts, I am surprised that you seem quite incapable of making your point without personally attacking. You are short-fused with chip on shoulder. I find your bullying overpowers your points, and serves to confuse those of us who could otherwise get something out of the geopolitical realities as you see them.

This thread is about a genuine concern that war is escalating in a troubled spot on a troubled continent, and Steve is valid to offer up the topic on his thread. Geeze, Merry Christmas.

[Pardalis]

BTW, it seems the horn of Africa will eventualy drift into the Indian ocean...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,405947,00.html

Now back to the topic.

[SteveGrenard]

BTW, it seems the horn of Africa will eventualy drift into the Indian ocean...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,405947,00.html

Now back to the topic.

You only have to wait about 10 million years or so.

[Polaris]

Jihad is pretty synonomous with "crusade". Except "crusade" is probably more literal.

The word "jihad" has multiple meanings, and the explanation thereof is not difficult to find with a google search.

It comes from the Arabic word "itjihad" which means "struggle" - as in, the internal struggle to be submissive to Allah. In one of the early Suras in the Quran, while Mohammad was still not secure in his victory over the Meccans and hadn't let power go to his sick little head, the language goes (to paraphrase), "the greater jihad is fought after a man returns from the battlefield (lesser jihad, in the literal translation)."

This has been cherry-picked many times by apologists like CAIR, MAYA, etc., to show that Mohammad was a peaceful man and the origins of Islam refudiate terrorism. They neglect to mention that this Sura was written before the massacre of the Jews of Quraysh, and Mohammad's rape of a woman of that tribe while her male relatives lay dead and bleeding in close proximity, because he was stressed and needed an outlet, and before he had a poetess assassinated for criticizing him.

All this is academic anyway. In terms of vernacular language, "crusade" doesn't mean "holy war" in the West anymore. But when a few Muslims get together and talk about going on a jihad, it's a safe bet that they're not talking about meditating about whether to eat mangos or not.

[Merko]

All this is academic anyway. In terms of vernacular language, "crusade" doesn't mean "holy war" in the West anymore.


For some very influential people, it clearly does:
"This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while."
-- George W Bush, September 16 2001.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010916-2.html


But when a few Muslims get together and talk about going on a jihad, it's a safe bet that they're not talking about meditating about whether to eat mangos or not.

No, it's definitely going to be something much more personal and related to religion. But of course, in the west, "jihad" is synonymous with war. However, in Muslim countries, "crusade" could of course never be anything else than a zealous, unjustified war against Muslims.

[steverino]

But of course, in the west, "jihad" is synonymous with war. However, in Muslim countries, "crusade" could of course never be anything else than a zealous, unjustified war against Muslims.

I find that the "in the west" label used to contrast "us" from Muslim nations does not apply because 5 million Americans are Muslim and 50 million Europeans are Muslim. As these 55 million Muslims live in the west and may or may not share identical Muslim values as those living in what we label "Muslim countries," it is inaccurate to generalize in such ways.

[Polaris]

I find that the "in the west" label used to contrast "us" from Muslim nations does not apply because 5 million Americans are Muslim and 50 million Europeans are Muslim. As these 55 million Muslims live in the west and may or may not share identical Muslim values as those living in what we label "Muslim countries," it is inaccurate to generalize in such ways.

Seven million, according to NPR today.

[Merko]

I find that the "in the west" label used to contrast "us" from Muslim nations does not apply because 5 million Americans are Muslim and 50 million Europeans are Muslim. As these 55 million Muslims live in the west and may or may not share identical Muslim values as those living in what we label "Muslim countries," it is inaccurate to generalize in such ways.

Sure, it's a generalisation. But everything is. Pick a word, and you'll find a subpopulation that has a significantly different connotation for it than the average person.

For the record, I've seen "jihad" being used by western Muslims to describe some completely peaceful religious self-struggle. And I really doubt it was to make a point of it, since it was in an overwhelmingly intra-Muslim discussion.

[CFLarsen]

Yeah, that's never happened before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Iraq_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemen_civil_war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Northern_Alliance

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/ladin.htm

For this last link, this is the operative paragraph:

Exactly. Steve is so wrong on so many levels, but he refuses to admit it. Heck, he even ignored all your sources.

Had I responded to you this way, I would have gotten warned or kicked out of the forum for being uncivil. For a guy with over 30,000 posts, I am surprised that you seem quite incapable of making your point without personally attacking. You are short-fused with chip on shoulder. I find your bullying overpowers your points, and serves to confuse those of us who could otherwise get something out of the geopolitical realities as you see them.

Those of you who don't have the experience us "old-timers" have, are, unfortunately, at a disadvantage: You are not aware of Steve's past.

Steve Grenard has lied, misrepresented, misquoted, broken copyright laws on a regular basis, embellished his reputation, padded his influence, as well as threatened with lawsuits and accused people of the worst things imaginable. E.g., that the reason I moved back to Denmark from the US was because of Denmark's laxer laws on pedophilia.

He has instigated an anonymous smear campaign against JREF. He constantly tries to discredit skeptics, and Randi in particular. He tried to get the JREF site on the list of banned sites, because it contained words that he himself had put there. He was very eager to post words like "Randi" and "pedophilia" close together, so the whole site would be banned from libraries.

Steve tries constantly to control what skeptics are allowed to say. He was able to silence the skeptics on his own, now defunct, SurvivalScience board, by summarily banning all those who were also members on JREF, regardless of whether they had posted something offensive to Steve or not. The records show that 27 members were banned, but Steve himself now claims that the number was 200. But he can't silence skeptics here, no matter how hard he tries.

His other antics include a claim that Randi "engineered" the Horizon programme on homeopathy to "discredit" homeopathy. He has also claimed that Emily Rosa's mother "scam" the nurses. He claimed that Prometheus (publisher of many skeptical books) are "extolling the virtues of pedophilia and prostitution" in their catalogue. There are, as you might have guessed, many others.

But not a single claim has ever been backed up with evidence. So, if you'll pardon me, I don't have a lot of patience with people like that.

This thread is about a genuine concern that war is escalating in a troubled spot on a troubled continent, and Steve is valid to offer up the topic on his thread. Geeze, Merry Christmas.

Steve's latest project has been a month-long crusade to vilify Muslims regardless of whether they are moderate or rabid terrorists. He is not genuinely concerned about the escalating situation in the area, he is merely abusing it for his rants against Muslims.

Note that he completely ignores that the ICU is fighting other Muslims. He ignores Polaris' links, which proves him wrong. Had he been genuinely concerned, he would have been swayed by the evidence. He is not.

His agenda in this crusade is another: If you disagree with his wild accusations, or dare prove him wrong, you are automatically supporting fundamentalist Islamist methods.

[steverino]

Those of you who don't have the experience us "old-timers" have, are, unfortunately, at a disadvantage: You are not aware of Steve's past.

Steve Grenard has lied, misrepresented, misquoted, broken copyright laws on a regular basis

WOW! I am in way over my head here. :boxedin:

I guess my response to all this is to say that it is obvious there is all this history between you and Steve and when you respond to his current posts, your points are obfuscated by your anger toward him. I, for one, miss the points you make, some of which I probably would agree with, or at least, learn from, because of your anguish over past issues.

If you find Steve a valid danger, it seems to me you'd serve your interests best by not responding to his threads and posts for the sake of your "safety" and mental health, if what you say is true. That stripper who accused those Duke students of raping her returned from her car and went back into their place as she left her purse there.

[SteveGrenard]

I clearly acknowledged that the jihad being conducted by the UIC, a word (jihad) which they use and which has been quoted/attributed to their spokespeople throughout the world.... includes muslims fighting muslims. You find this amusing? Not true? What? When you re-posted the links provided to you that there is enormous precedent for muslims fighting muslims, instead you take a new position that I didn't acknowledge this and that you knew this all along. So let's be clear on your duplicity here in re-quoting people by re-quoting those links together with the statement by you to which those links were a response to:


Originally Posted by CFLarsen
Thank you.

So, Muslims are fighting Muslims. A Jihad against....Muslims?

to which you were supplied with the following links:


Yeah, that's never happened before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Iraq_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemen_civil_war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Northern_Alliance

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/ladin.htm


To which I add yes, like it has happened before, is happening right now in Iraq and has happened in plenty of other instances. By the way the above links failed to include Muslim Iraq's attack on Muslim Kuwait which precipitated the first Gulf war. When one side uses the word "jihad" to describe their "struggle" it doesn't mean they are not waging jihad against fellow muslims. Conclusion: their compulsion to employ violence is so great they are even willing to kill their fellow co-religionists and do so routinely.

Here is another example:



On the northern front, government and Ethiopian troops entered the town of Bulo Barde, where just two weeks ago an Islamic cleric said anyone who did not pray five times a day would be executed. Government and Ethiopian troops were headed for Jowhar, 90 kilometers north of Mogadishu, after driving Islamic troops from Bandiradley, Adadow and Galinsor.

http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/international/news/20061226p2g00m0in031000c.html



I wonder if the imam would excuse someone who was out fighting the Ethiopians? The Ethiopians entered the town with no resistance probably because everyone was praying at the time or they were dead for not doing so.

[Severian]

This is not rank hysteria, it is an assesment of their game plan. Islam already has all of North Africa west of the Horn, they have made inroads in West Africa in Nigeria

So, the Ethiopian invasion of Somalia - is somehow supposed to represent Islamic aggression against Ethiopia!

Weird. "Islam" doesn't control all those North African countries - a great assortment of political regimes do. None of them are Islamic fundamentalist, except for the Somali UIC regime which will probably be short-lived. And arguably Sudan, but that's pretty arguable since the Sudanese regime jailed Turabi and started sharing intelligence with Washington. I'd be more scared of Islamic fundamentalism taking over the world, if they had more luck taking over majority-Muslim countries.

Of course, the UIC have rhetorically promised to aid ethnic Somali rebels in the Ogaden region. But so have other Somali regimes.

One of those regimes - Siad Barre's - actually did invade Ethiopia - with U.S. help - in the late 70s. The USSR and Cuba were aiding Ethiopia then. AFAIK nobody at the time claimed this represented the inherent aggressiveness of Islam or whatever.

The one government that's definitely aiding the UIC in Somalia, BTW, is Eritrea. Eritrea has a mixed Muslim-Christian population, and its leaders probably aren't religious at all, given their ideological past. (The same goes for Ethiopia's political leaders, BTW.) Probably Eritrea is aiding the UIC simply because Ethiopia is on the other side. Just another example of power politics trumping religion.

[SteveGrenard]

Ethiopia states its position in the AP report below. The U.S. backs Ethiopia in this conflict because it feels the UIC is alQueda inspired, funded and controlled and alQueda is definitely our enemy. I agree and support my country on this.
History and alliances change so quickly in these areas they are of no concern in the current situation. When happened in 1970 stays in 1970.


Associated Press

3 Sides Prepare for Battle in Somalia

By MOHAMED OLAD HASSAN 12.26.06, 2:38 PM ET


Somalia government soldiers, joined by troops from neighboring Ethiopia, advanced toward Somalia's capital Tuesday as Islamic fighters dug in and promised a "new phase" in the war - a chilling pronouncement from a movement that has threatened suicide attacks.

Somalia called on the Council of Islamic Courts militias, bloodied by a week of artillery and mortar attacks, to surrender and promised amnesty if they lay down their weapons, government spokesman Abdirahman Dinari said.

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2006/12/26/ap3282427.html


Not quoted above is that Ethiopia says when it is finished in Somalia it will get out. Read the entire reference which I cannot reprint since it would be a violation which the islamic apologists here would report me for.

By finished they mean the rightful government (even if it is muslim which it is) be placed back in control and the Union of Islamic Courts jihadists are either dead, defeated under an amnesty or chased out.

[Severian]

And? So? Words reverse the fact of who is invading who?

Eh, nevermind, I should stop arguing with a troll.

[steverino]

And? So? Words reverse the fact of who is invading who?

Eh, nevermind, I should stop arguing with a troll.

Geeze. You have 10 posts under your belt and already you are name-calling? I think there is enough nuance and compexity in African politics that all points of view can be discussed intelligently without personal attacks.

Most of us living in western countries hear more about Muslims in the Middle East, former Yugoslavia, and France. Their political dynamic in central Africa less so. Why not simply help enlighten us and take a positive tact?

I admit I know little about Ethiopia, other than its Jewish population that immigrated to Israel, the Ethiopian dudes who park cars here at the Space Needle, oh, and that two hundred bucks I sent Oprah in the '90's during one of the famines.

[Gurdur]

Had I responded to you this way, I would have gotten warned or kicked out of the forum for being uncivil.
You claiming you are treated differently? I doubt it. Stop whining.
For a guy with over 30,000 posts, I am surprised that you seem quite incapable of making your point without personally attacking. You are short-fused with chip on shoulder.
You're being extremely hypocritical, Stevie, aren't you? ;) I've seen far worse and far more immature coming from you, so maybe you should just settle down and concentrate on the topic, which happens to be Somalia, not your claims of being treated differently etc.
Geeze, Merry Christmas.
You too.

[steverino]

maybe you should just settle down and concentrate on the topic, which happens to be Somalia, not your claims of being treated differently etc.

How exactly does YOUR above critique of me relate to Somalia?:D

[Gurdur]

How exactly does YOUR above critique of me relate to Somalia?:D
It gets you back onto the point --- once you've stopped playing your childish games. This thread is NOT about you, it's about Somalia, so get there.

[SteveGrenard]

And? So? Words reverse the fact of who is invading who?

Eh, nevermind, I should stop arguing with a troll.

Words certainly do count . I see you are new here and have only 10 posts so you can be forgiven for not knowing that this forum operates on words, the source of words and the study and discussion of words. We're all abut words and have nothing else to trade in.

And words don't so much reverse anything such as who is invading who but if you are taking the pro-Islamic position that these poor islamicists from the CIC are being beaten up by Ethiopia and the legitimate government of Somalia with which Ethiopia is allied, then why not just say so? Who is a
troll?

Yes, Ethiopia has "invaded" Somalia but you fail to recognize the fact that the CIC has also invaded Somalia and Ethiopia's invasion is in support of the U.N. backed and recognized legitimate government and against the islamicists/CIC. If this is a problem for you why not just say so?


The Associated Press

Published: December 26, 2006

WASHINGTON: The U.S. State Department signaled support on Tuesday for Ethiopian military operations against Somalia, noting that Ethiopia has had "genuine security concerns" stemming from the rise of Islamist forces in its eastern neighbor.

Spokesman Gonzalo Gallegos also noted that the Ethiopian military acted at the request of the Somalia's internationally-backed secular government, which has been resisting with little success the spreading influence of the more powerful Islamist forces.

Do you understand these words so far? Good. I read the pro-Islamic, anti-US and anti Ethiopian propaganda/words as well but I don't believe it. If you do, at the very least why not say so? Otherwise make a personal visit to Somalia and get the true picture and report back here when you return., that is if you don't trust words.



Gallegos had no information on whether the United States has been bolstering the Ethiopian military through delivery of supplies. He noted that Ethiopia has said that its action is intended to prevent further aggression by the Islamic Courts.

The Bush administration has been increasingly alarmed by the growing strength of the Islamic militias, and the welcome they reportedly have given to al-Qaida militants.

The Islamic militants operate under the umbrella of the Council of Islamic Courts (CIC).

Got that so far? What do you think? Psst. I think we are delivering "supplies" to Ethiopia. Good for us.


The government has no presence in Somalia's capital, Mogadishu, its reach limited to the western town of Baidoa. In contrast, the CIC has dominated the country's entire southern region.

You think this is not true?


A priority U.S. goal in Somalia is the capture of three reputed al-Qaida militants wanted for the bombings of U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998 and a hotel in Kenya in 2002. The three are from Sudan, Kenya and the Comoros Islands, located off Africa's east coast.

Al-Qaida militants are operating with "great comfort" in Somalia, Assistant Secretary of State Jendayi Frazer said recently.

The Islamists have caused unease here by expressing interest establishing a "Greater Somalia" that would include ethnic Somali regions of Ethiopia, Kenya and Djibouti.

Oops. There it is, the previously dismissed pro-islamic apologists claim that the CIC has no designs on Ethiopia or Kenya. Oh well. I am glad he is so much more in the know than the feet on the ground in the region.


Two weeks ago, the Pentagon recommended a new U.S. military command for Africa, which is seen as having greater strategic importance to America since the start of the fight against terrorism.

At present, U.S. military responsibility for Africa has been split among several commands, all based elsewhere.

The United States has consistently backed the establishment of an African force to help defend the Baidoa government, thus creating a power balance between the government and the CIC and thus enhance prospects for negotiations on power sharing.

But with Ethiopia's invasion, creation of the force now seems highly unlikely.

Ethiopia has been backing the Somali government for months while Eritrea has been supporting the Islamists.

A report by a U.N. panel last month said that in addition to Ethiopia and Eritrea, weapons had been sent to armed groups in Somalia by Egypt, Yemen, Libya, Iran, Djibouti, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Uganda. Most of the nations have denied the allegations.

The shipments would be in violation of a U.N. arms embargo against Somalia, in effect since 1992.

And who would thought it? We can pretty much guess where the Ethiopian shipments went, wonder where the muslim states' weapons ended up? Care to guess?

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/12/26/america/NA_GEN_US_Ethiopia_Somalia.php

As I said above I back my country's current position which is to back Ethiopia and the UN sanctioned, true government of Somalia and not the jihadists calling themselves (the Union) or Council of Islamic Courts.

[Merko]

By finished they mean the rightful government (even if it is muslim which it is) be placed back in control and the Union of Islamic Courts jihadists are either dead, defeated under an amnesty or chased out.

Rightful government? That "government" isn't even a real government to begin with, and I don't think it has done anything to deserve being called "rightful". It's a band of crooks that has ruined Somalia for years, without offering anything that a government is supposed to: like security, health care, or education.

We may not like the UIC but the reason they are having some success is that they have actually been able to make some progress in fighting off these warlords and maintaining some kind of order. Many people will find it preferrable to be forced to say their prayers, than constantly having to worry about bands of robbers calling themselves a "government" that can turn up at any moment, killing people, taking their belongings, or do anything they might feel like.

The UN has sanctioned some warlords as a "government", hoping that they'd behave a bit better than some other warlords, and perhaps restore some of the law and order that Somalia needs so desperately. I don't think there is anything wrong with that per se, but this is definitely not a government that can legitimately claim to represent Somalia. I'm not saying that the UIC can either - the truth is that Somalia is in a state of anarchy.

I also think it's deeply counterproductive to label the UIC "al Qaeda sympathisers" or similar at this stage. I don't doubt you can find some terrorists hiding in this area, but that does not mean the UIC has made a principle of supporting them. However, if we start defining them as an enemy nevertheless, they will pretty much end up on that side by default.

[Mycroft]

WOW! I am in way over my head here. :boxedin:


No you're not.

Having looked into "Steve's past" and found very little to substantiate Larsen's allegations, I can say your impressions are very much on target.

The nutshell version is this:

Years ago Grenard lost someone close to him, and for a brief time was looking into the paranormal for ways to contact the dead. Nothing every came of it, and after a while he stopped.

While he was looking into it, he seems to have endured some ridicule from skeptics, who don't believe in such things.

One of those skeptics was Clause Larsen, who apparently believes that if you disagree with someone on one thing, you must then disagree with them on everything forever, no matter how much time has gone by on that one thing.

That’s the nut-shell version. Many details have been left out.

Now watch me get attacked. :D

[Zep]

No you're not.

Having looked into "Steve's past" and found very little to substantiate Larsen's allegations, I can say your impressions are very much on target.

The nutshell version is this:

Years ago Grenard lost someone close to him, and for a brief time was looking into the paranormal for ways to contact the dead. Nothing every came of it, and after a while he stopped.

While he was looking into it, he seems to have endured some ridicule from skeptics, who don't believe in such things.

One of those skeptics was Clause Larsen, who apparently believes that if you disagree with someone on one thing, you must then disagree with them on everything forever, no matter how much time has gone by on that one thing.

That’s the nut-shell version. Many details have been left out.

Now watch me get attacked. :DWith respect, I do disagree with you. I came to a similar conclusion about Steve independently from Claus - the most parsimonious explanation (remember Occam??) is not that Steve believes sincerely in what he is posting here, nor that he is even a fanatic on the subjects he so singularly chooses. I feel a much more succinct and logical conclusion runs along the lines that Claus has outlined a few times.

But while I generally agree with Claus on what the situation is as it stands, I really do disagree with his method of response to the situation.

[CFLarsen]

WOW! I am in way over my head here. :boxedin:

Yes. But now you know more about Steve's background.

I guess my response to all this is to say that it is obvious there is all this history between you and Steve and when you respond to his current posts, your points are obfuscated by your anger toward him. I, for one, miss the points you make, some of which I probably would agree with, or at least, learn from, because of your anguish over past issues.

If you find Steve a valid danger, it seems to me you'd serve your interests best by not responding to his threads and posts for the sake of your "safety" and mental health, if what you say is true. That stripper who accused those Duke students of raping her returned from her car and went back into their place as she left her purse there.

I don't find Steve a danger to me. He is a danger to skepticism, if we let him rant without countering his false claims, lies and accusations.

To which I add yes, like it has happened before, is happening right now in Iraq and has happened in plenty of other instances. By the way the above links failed to include Muslim Iraq's attack on Muslim Kuwait which precipitated the first Gulf war. When one side uses the word "jihad" to describe their "struggle" it doesn't mean they are not waging jihad against fellow muslims. Conclusion: their compulsion to employ violence is so great they are even willing to kill their fellow co-religionists and do so routinely.

Conclusion: Your point is totally destroyed.

So, the Ethiopian invasion of Somalia - is somehow supposed to represent Islamic aggression against Ethiopia!

Weird. "Islam" doesn't control all those North African countries - a great assortment of political regimes do. None of them are Islamic fundamentalist, except for the Somali UIC regime which will probably be short-lived. And arguably Sudan, but that's pretty arguable since the Sudanese regime jailed Turabi and started sharing intelligence with Washington. I'd be more scared of Islamic fundamentalism taking over the world, if they had more luck taking over majority-Muslim countries.

Of course, the UIC have rhetorically promised to aid ethnic Somali rebels in the Ogaden region. But so have other Somali regimes.

One of those regimes - Siad Barre's - actually did invade Ethiopia - with U.S. help - in the late 70s. The USSR and Cuba were aiding Ethiopia then. AFAIK nobody at the time claimed this represented the inherent aggressiveness of Islam or whatever.

The one government that's definitely aiding the UIC in Somalia, BTW, is Eritrea. Eritrea has a mixed Muslim-Christian population, and its leaders probably aren't religious at all, given their ideological past. (The same goes for Ethiopia's political leaders, BTW.) Probably Eritrea is aiding the UIC simply because Ethiopia is on the other side. Just another example of power politics trumping religion.

Well said.

No you're not.

Having looked into "Steve's past" and found very little to substantiate Larsen's allegations, I can say your impressions are very much on target.

The nutshell version is this:

Years ago Grenard lost someone close to him, and for a brief time was looking into the paranormal for ways to contact the dead. Nothing every came of it, and after a while he stopped.

While he was looking into it, he seems to have endured some ridicule from skeptics, who don't believe in such things.

One of those skeptics was Clause Larsen, who apparently believes that if you disagree with someone on one thing, you must then disagree with them on everything forever, no matter how much time has gone by on that one thing.

That’s the nut-shell version. Many details have been left out.

Indeed. And those "details" show us that you are not interested in looking at the evidence.

Among the "details":

Steve didn't just "look into" the paranormal for ways to contact the dead. He was heavily involved, to a degree where he was a close associate of Don Watson and Gary Schwartz. He did experiments with psychics. He is still listed on Don Watson's website as a "friend", "hero", "collaborator", and "kindred spirit". (http://www.enformy.com/links.htm#Steve)

Your whitewash of Steve is telling, but not effective.

Now watch me get attacked. :D

Sorry to disappoint you, but you are not going to get "attacked". You have been shown the evidence several times, only you choose not to see it. If you prefer to lie about it, that is your decision.

[SteveGrenard]

Lest anyone here believe the islamic apologists who are trying to claim the CIC/UIC is not engaged in a holy war or jihad against fellow muslims, the following report made to the Security Council seems to indicate otherwise:


UNITED NATIONS — The conflict between Somalia's transitional government and Islamic militants has escalated dangerously, as Islamist leaders threaten a "holy war" against advancing government troops and allied Ethiopian forces, a U.N. special envoy told the Security Council on Tuesday.

Relaying reports from U.N. representatives on the ground, envoy Francois Lonseny Fall said the situation was quickly deteriorating as government forces advanced on the Islamist-held capital, Mogadishu, from two directions. The soldiers have taken control of several towns in the southern part of the country that had been held by the Islamic Courts Union, Fall said, and have ordered the closure of the country's borders to keep out fighters from Eritrea and other nearby countries.

Somali government forces have been bolstered by about 4,000 troops from neighboring Ethiopia, whose Christian government fears the spread of Islamic challengers across its borders. Ethiopian airplanes bombed the Mogadishu airport Monday to stop arms and foreign fighters from reaching the Islamic militias.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-somalia27dec27,1,2790733.story?coll=la-headlines-world


Also lest anyone doubt the creeping spread of islam throughout Africa, based on Islamic ambitions of African domination, the following map should lay that notion to rest. As the dark and light green areas demonstrate. Do we also really need to tell the apologists why islamicists want to control Africa and kill as many people as possible to accomplish that? It's called mineral wealth.

Do the illiterate, poorer jihadist fighters, whipped into an islamic fury, by the higher ups care bout mineral wealth or are they fighting to impose their religion? Yes they are led to believe they are in a holy war. But the higher ups, the Saudi type royals and other upper echelon muslims who support and push these agendas have their eye on that wealth. It would not be the first time the governing elite sent their supplicants into battle for a false notion while the true reason was to expand their own wealth. This is all about a giant land grab including that what lays below it.

It is naive to believe otherwise ...

[CFLarsen]

Lest anyone here believe the islamic apologists who are trying to claim the CIC/UIC is not engaged in a holy war or jihad against fellow muslims

Who are you talking about?

Name them, and present quotes that show they are "islamic apologists".

[hammegk]

If you prefer to lie about it, that is your decision.
Oh. Your approach.:)

[SteveGrenard]

Who are you talking about?

Salim Lone, for example. One, no doubt, of many.

Name them, and present quotes that show they are "islamic apologists".

I just did name one. See above. You can have a whole article full (opinion piece) of "quotes" by Salim:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/26/opinion/edlone.php

[Mycroft]

Indeed. And those "details" show us that you are not interested in looking at the evidence.

I looked at the evidence. Probably more than you are aware of. In the past SG was into some woo woo stuff, there is no doubt of that.

If you were confronting him on his paranormal beliefs, I’d be all for it. Communicate with the dead? Let’s see the evidence!

But you don’t do that. Instead you confront him on everything. It doesn’t seem to matter how trivial or how far removed from any topic for skepticism, if Steve says it you attack him for it.

You’re not promoting skepticism when you challenge him on the details of a ten year old resume you found online, or hold him responsible for poorly kept statistics on South American (or wherever) stingray deaths, or bash him on his political beliefs on the dangers of radical Islam. All you’re doing is waging a personal vendetta that makes you look like the jack-ass. The only damage Steve has ever done to skepticism is to make you look like a raving nut-case.

And the kicker is there is no evidence Steve Grenard still believes in contacting the dead. It’s quite possible he looked into it, participated in a few experiments, and then decided there was nothing to it. Do you have anything recent from him promoting that stuff? I couldn’t find anything.

Which, if you think about it, is the core of skeptical thought. Randy doesn’t say to dismiss paranormal phenomena out of hand, he says look at the evidence and make up your mind.

People learn and grow with time. A person who begins as a woo woo can change into a skeptic, but not if the skeptics are only interested in bashing him.


Among the "details":

Steve didn't just "look into" the paranormal for ways to contact the dead. He was heavily involved, to a degree where he was a close associate of Don Watson and Gary Schwartz. He did experiments with psychics. He is still listed on Don Watson's website as a "friend", "hero", "collaborator", and "kindred spirit". (http://www.enformy.com/links.htm#Steve)

Yeah, that “enformy” nonsense is a lot like “orgone” nonsense, isn’t it?

So what? Does that mean everyone listed on that page and everyone remotely related to Donald Watson should be subject to personal attack wherever they go? I don’t think so. Challenge them on the “enformy” nonsense if they espouse it and leave it at that.


Your whitewash of Steve is telling, but not effective.

I’m not interested in whitewashing anything. Steve’s past is what it is. The difference is I recognize it’s not justification to attack him on anything and everything he does or says. If he pushes woo woo science, by all means challenge him. When he doesn't, leave him alone.


Sorry to disappoint you, but you are not going to get "attacked". You have been shown the evidence several times, only you choose not to see it. If you prefer to lie about it, that is your decision.

See? Now you’re calling me a liar while bizarrely claiming not to attack me. Come back to reality, Larsen. You will like how firm the ground feels here.

[CFLarsen]

Salim Lone, for example. One, no doubt, of many.



I just did name one. See above. You can have a whole article full (opinion piece) of "quotes" by Salim:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/26/opinion/edlone.php

Anyone can find someone with stupid opinions. Why do you think anyone would be convinced by this guy?

[Mycroft]

Anyone can find someone with stupid opinions. Why do you think anyone would be convinced by this guy?

Did you say:

Who are you talking about?

Name them, and present quotes that show they are "islamic apologists".

Yes or no?

[Gurdur]

Seeing as to how the latest news is that the Islamic Court militias are on the run all the way back to Mogadishu after the first time of meeting a halfway modern army with actual artillery and an airforce (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6212807.stm), maybe there doesn't quite need to be this rampant fear about the Somali Islamists taking over Africa.

[SteveGrenard]

Seeing as to how the latest news is that the Islamic Court militias are on the run all the way back to Mogadishu after the first time of meeting a halfway modern army with actual artillery and an airforce (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6212807.stm), maybe there doesn't quite need to be this rampant fear about the Somali Islamists taking over Africa.

Exactly. But I think there always needs to be concern and fear. If you fall for the premise that you needn't be concerned you may be overrun. Ethiopia took action on its fear and the U.N. and the U.S. backed them and the non-Islamic Court but otherwise muslim government of Somalia.

The report this AM was that the Ethiopians and UN backed government forces of Somalia were 50 kms from Mogadishu so theCIC/UIC (aka ICU) may be more than just chased back to that city.

[CFLarsen]

Seeing as to how the latest news is that the Islamic Court militias are on the run all the way back to Mogadishu after the first time of meeting a halfway modern army with actual artillery and an airforce (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6212807.stm), maybe there doesn't quite need to be this rampant fear about the Somali Islamists taking over Africa.

"Running" is putting it mildly. (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/12/27/somalia.ethiopia.reut/index.html)

[CFLarsen]

Exactly. But I think there always needs to be concern and fear.

If you fall for the premise that you needn't be concerned you may be overrun. Ethiopia took action on its fear and the U.N. and the U.S. backed them and the non-Islamic Court but otherwise muslim government of Somalia.

The report this AM was that the Ethiopians and UN backed government forces of Somalia were 50 kms from Mogadishu so theCIC/UIC (aka ICU) may be more than just chased back to that city.

So, you want to keep us in a perpetual state of fear, regardless of the situation. All you are doing is trying to create an atmosphere of ongoing panic.

That way, we won't have time to think, and are more easily controlled.

No thanks, Steve. I prefer to think for myself, and not be controlled by people like you.

[SteveGrenard]

Anyone can find someone with stupid opinions. Why do you think anyone would be convinced by this guy?

Er, because there are?

Okay, like I mean it is a blatantly opinionated piece but Salim Lone obviously has some who follow his islamic apologism and anti-American rhetoric. It is fascinating that he blames the U.S. for destabilizing the Horn of Africa while the map of almost half the continent is turning green for islamicism. He would have many believe we want Soamlia's oil and control over its shipping lanes but he negelects to mention the more realistic assesment that it is the muslim gulf states who covet these assets as well ....especially since they lay at their doorstep. I appreciate the fact that it is hard for you to understand how any reader of this could be so stupid but you of all people don't usually underestimate stupidity. There are over 2000 press reports worldwide on this conflict and its background, a number of which side with Lone's position. Just because his name is Lone doesn't mean he's completely a_Lone in this....pun intended.

[CFLarsen]

He would have many believe we want Soamlia's oil

What oil?

[aggle-rithm]

Oh, hush. Islam is the religion of peace.



...and once all the infidels are dead, it'll be peaceful as hell.

[HarryKeogh]

So, you want to keep us in a perpetual state of fear, regardless of the situation. All you are doing is trying to create an atmosphere of ongoing panic.

I hate it when people post reactionary fear-mongering stuff like that. (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=406590&postcount=1)

[CFLarsen]

I looked at the evidence. Probably more than you are aware of. In the past SG was into some woo woo stuff, there is no doubt of that.

If you were confronting him on his paranormal beliefs, I’d be all for it. Communicate with the dead? Let’s see the evidence!

But you don’t do that. Instead you confront him on everything. It doesn’t seem to matter how trivial or how far removed from any topic for skepticism, if Steve says it you attack him for it.

Of the 237 threads Steve has opened, I have responded to exactly 69. Of the last 300 threads Steve has participated in, I have responded to exactly 92.

You have been proven wrong. Do you admit this?

You’re not promoting skepticism when you challenge him on the details of a ten year old resume you found online

What you leave out is that Steve claimed a doctorate he didn't write on his resume. You may think that academic fraud is irrelevant, I don't.

, or hold him responsible for poorly kept statistics on South American (or wherever) stingray deaths,

Again, you can't get it right. He claimed statistics he couldn't back up. Calling him on that is very skeptical.

or bash him on his political beliefs on the dangers of radical Islam.

I call Steve on his false claims, designed to create as much fear as possible. Nowhere have I defended radical Islam, or ignored the dangers.

All you’re doing is waging a personal vendetta that makes you look like the jack-ass. The only damage Steve has ever done to skepticism is to make you look like a raving nut-case.

And the kicker is there is no evidence Steve Grenard still believes in contacting the dead. It’s quite possible he looked into it, participated in a few experiments, and then decided there was nothing to it. Do you have anything recent from him promoting that stuff? I couldn’t find anything.

Does that mean he has given it up? Do you think you will get a clear statement from Steve, saying that he does not believe that any psychic can talk to the dead? Go ahead, try.

Which, if you think about it, is the core of skeptical thought. Randy doesn’t say to dismiss paranormal phenomena out of hand, he says look at the evidence and make up your mind.

That's exactly what I do, Mycroft: I investigate claims, and when they don't hold up to scrutiny, I point it out.

People learn and grow with time. A person who begins as a woo woo can change into a skeptic, but not if the skeptics are only interested in bashing him.

Ask Steve. Go on.

Yeah, that “enformy” nonsense is a lot like “orgone” nonsense, isn’t it?

Who are now dismissing paranormal phenomena out of hand?

[SteveGrenard]

What oil?

Sorry, the "region's oil."

The following is from Lone's opinion piece. As a former UN official spokeserson in Iraq I have to assume there is some truth involved when he makes a statement like this, at least that there is oil in the region and that the shipping lanes that pass adjacent to the Horn of Africa exist. That the U.S. wants these but islamic states in the middle east don't is, well, absurd.

As with Iraq in 2003, the United States has cast this as a war to curtail terrorism, but its real goal is to obtain a direct foothold in a highly strategic region by establishing a client regime there. The Horn of Africa is newly oil-rich, and lies just miles from Saudi Arabia, overlooking the daily passage of large numbers of oil tankers and warships through the Red Sea.


Salim Lone, who was the spokesman for the UN mission in Iraq in 2003, is a columnist for The Daily Nation in Kenya.

On the specific liklihood of Soamlia's oil reserves, see the following PDF:

http://www.rangeresources.com.au/docs/News%20Article%206%20October%202005.pdf

[CFLarsen]

Sorry, the "region's oil."

What oil?

The Horn of Africa contains
...the countries of Djibouti, Ethiopia, Eritrea and Somalia.
Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_of_Africa)

Combined oil production: 0 barrels a day.

But, from the same source:

Sudan and Kenya are sometimes included as well.

Sudan: 401,300 barrels a day.

Kenya: 0 barrels a day.

Compare to Saudi Arabia's 9.475 million barrels a day.

Yeah, the Horn of Africa is one hotbed of oil... :rolleyes:

(All figures are from 2003).

The following is from Lone's opinion piece. As a former UN official spokeserson in Iraq I have to assume there is some truth involved when he makes a statement like this, at least that there is oil in the region and that the shipping lanes that pass adjacent to the Horn of Africa exist. That the U.S. wants these but islamic states in the middle east don't is, well, absurd.

His opinion is contradicted by facts:

"Somalia has no proven oil reserves, and only 200 billion cubic feet of proven natural gas reserves. Somalia currently has no hydrocarbon production.
Source (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Somalia's_oil_industry)

Also here. (http://www.indexmundi.com/map.aspx?lesson=y&v=Oil+-+production(bbl%2Fday))

On the specific liklihood of Soamlia's oil reserves, see the following PDF:

http://www.rangeresources.com.au/docs/News%20Article%206%20October%202005.pdf

Rubbish. The paper speaks of the possibility of oil. It is nowhere "specific".

I think it is way overdue that you went back to your study room and began to find some facts, instead of blindly reporting any bozo's opinion, as long as it serves your purpose of fear mongering.

[SteveGrenard]

Q's for Claus Larsen:

1.And what does oil production have to do with the presence of oil in the ground?

2. So you are saying that the islamicists, particularly the upper echelons and leaders, have no interest in Africa's mineral wealth -- oil, diamonds, gold, uranium, whatever and are trying to take over the continent merely to spread the word of allah and to impose their sharia on humanity?

[CFLarsen]

And what does oil production have to do with the presence of oil in the ground?

What "presence of oil in the ground"? Show me a map of where the oil is in the Somalia ground, and how much there is.

Show me facts, Steve. Don't give me opinions.

[SteveGrenard]

What "presence of oil in the ground"? Show me a map of where the oil is in the Somalia ground, and how much there is.

I didnt predicate my question on the existence of such maps. I asked you very simply how your data on production relates to what's in the ground.

Show me facts, Steve. Don't give me opinions.

Informed opinion from qualified geologists precedes any exploration for oil.

A stable government helps investors decide if they want to invest in that exploration.


----------------------------------------------
Here is a report from a correspondent on the ground in the capital:

http://somalinet.com/news/world/Somalia/6219

[CFLarsen]

2. So you are saying that the islamicists, particularly the upper echelons and leaders, have no interest in Africa's mineral wealth -- oil, diamonds, gold, uranium, whatever and are trying to take over the continent merely to spread the word of allah and to impose their sharia on humanity?

Nice moving of the goal posts.

You opened this thread about the Horn of Africa. Not Africa in general.

I didnt predicate my question on the existence of such maps. I asked you very simply how your data on production relates to what's in the ground.

Because it is very good evidence of how much faith the oil companies have in the prospects of how much oil there is in the ground. If they discover a big find, they will go after it, especially when the price is so high as it is today.

Did you check the price on gasoline lately, Steve?

Informed opinion from qualified geologists precedes any exploration for oil.

A stable government helps investors decide if they want to invest in that exploration.

----------------------------------------------
Here is a report from a correspondent on the ground in the capital:

http://somalinet.com/news/world/Somalia/6219

This is not about oil. This is about how the radical Islamists are losing, thereby proving you wrong.

Do you have any evidence that there is oil in Djibouti, Ethiopia, Eritrea and Somalia, yes or no?

[HarryKeogh]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/8594592e6a7705d9.bmp (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3356)

[hammegk]

Do you have any evidence that there is oil in Djibouti, Ethiopia, Eritrea and Somalia, yes or no?Yes, I do. (But if I told you what it was you'd have to be killed. So I won't. Happy now?) :)

[SteveGrenard]

And by the way as UIC or CIC or ICU or whatever acronym it is being called tonight is being surrounded in Mogadishu as government and Ethiopian troops surround (but not attack) the city, this little tidbit appears in a BBC report.


I hope they're having a good time and send a postcard back to their guys in Somalia.

The UIC's two most senior military commanders - the defence chief, Yusuf Indade, and his deputy, Abu Mansur - are currently both on the Hajj pilgrimage in Mecca.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6212807.stm

[Severian]

(CFL Larsen responding to Steve Grenard) The lesson here is that your ignorance knows no boundaries.
Had I responded to you this way, I would have gotten warned or kicked out of the forum for being uncivil.

Why is Steve allowed to have obvious sock puppet accounts? And aren't multiple accounts another symptom of trollishness?

[SteveGrenard]

Check this out .....

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/3697_the_list_2_16_2003.asp

[Merko]

You can have a whole article full (opinion piece) of "quotes" by Salim:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/26/opinion/edlone.php

I think this is a well-informed and insightful analysis of the situation. For sure I don't like it when any country is ruled by laws that prohibit people from watching football, but Salim Lone is completely right in saying that the best antidote to terrorism in Somalia is stability. And that the IUC have actually been able to provide some of that. And that, therefore, it is foolish to throw Somalia back into civil war.

[Merko]

Check this out .....

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/3697_the_list_2_16_2003.asp

Why are you posting this list? I don't find any Grenard on it. What is the point?

[CFLarsen]

Check this out .....

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/3697_the_list_2_16_2003.asp

Yes, the Steve list. Which has nothing to do with the discussion.

Do you have any evidence that there is oil in Djibouti, Ethiopia, Eritrea and Somalia, yes or no?

Islamists withdraw from Mogadishu (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/12/28/somalia.reut/index.html)
A top Somali Islamist leader said on Thursday that all Islamist forces had withdrawn from the capital Mogadishu.

"We have withdrawn all the leaders and members who worked in the capital," Sheikh Sharif Ahmed told Al Jazeera television by telephone.

How would you describe the progress of this "jihad" you were speaking of, that had "begun in earnest", only four days ago?

Are these "jihadists" succeeding or not?

[SteveGrenard]

Why are you posting this list? I don't find any Grenard on it. What is the point?

Because it is as stupid as your assertion I have sock puppets.

[SteveGrenard]

How would you describe the progress of this "jihad" you were speaking of, that had "begun in earnest", only four days ago?

Are these "jihadists" succeeding or not?

I hope you're right and this is the end of it.

[CFLarsen]

I hope you're right and this is the end of it.
Sarcasm aside,

How would you describe the progress of this "jihad" you were speaking of, that had "begun in earnest", only four days ago?

Are these "jihadists" succeeding or not?

[SteveGrenard]

The point is it is premature to assess what you are asking. No sarcasm intended. only a possible object lesson.

[AWPrime]

Why is Steve allowed to have obvious sock puppet accounts? And aren't multiple accounts another symptom of trollishness?
And how can we be sure that you aren't a sockpuppet?

[CFLarsen]

The point is it is premature to assess what you are asking. No sarcasm intended. only a possible object lesson.

Rubbish. If you can assess that this "jihad" had "begun in earnest" four days ago, based on the news, then you can describe the progress of this "jihad" as it is today.

Are these "jihadists" succeeding or not?

[SteveGrenard]

There are over 2000 press reports on the conflict right now. A fair numer of them provide reports such as the following which make optimism cautious and which why, I at least,think your question is premature. You may continue your ad hominem rantings while I try to explain to you that while you may think my response is rubbish, it is obvious you are merely regurgitating bait.



PETER CAVE: Somali Government troops, backed by Ethiopian forces, have rolled into Mogadishu.

Only hours before the troops entered the capital, Islamic militants who'd held the city for six months fled, pledging to make a last stand in southern Somalia.

Al-Qaeda has also called for jihadists to help counter "the invasion of Somalia by the crusader state Ethiopia".

The threats have raised fears that Somalia could descend into an Iraqi-style war, with Islamists turning to insurgent tactics.

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2006/s1819083.htm


Evidence of further uncertainties underpinning my assertion that your question is extremely premature and meaningless at this point:


How a war ends often depends on how it began. Take the one that boiled over in Somalia last week. Islamist forces attacked a legal government guarded by an invading Ethiopian army. Which side had just cause? The answer isn't so easy.

Both the UN and the African Union, two international bodies that often intervene in sovereign nations, largely stood by, argued, or scratched their collective heads as the fighting in Somalia raged on.

Secretary-General Kofi Annan declared a UN-backed intervention was not needed.

The Islamists, known as the Union of Islamic Courts (UIC) and made up of various religious clans in Somalia, declared "holy war" Dec. 20 and invited foreign jihadists to join in. Neighboring Ethiopia, a largely Christian nation, claimed the UIC was meddling with Ethiopia's Muslim minority. And the US (supporting Ethiopia) claimed the Islamists were creating a terrorist state, using child soldiers, and committing Taliban-like abuses.

Thursday, with the Islamists having lost control of Somalia's capital, Mogadishu, world diplomats were still trying to figure out how to apply lessons learned from conflicts of the past 15 years, such as Rwanda, Bosnia, East Timor, Kosovo, and the US military's disastrous 1992 food mission in Somalia.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1229/p08s02-comv.html


And to the last line above, I add the lesson of the "Mission Accomplished" banner. If the insurgency and guerilla fighting promised by the UIC fails to materialize over the next six months and things settle down in Somalia then the effort warrants a positive re-assesment.

I have bolded the releveant comments. If the world's diplomats can't figure out what is going to happen next why by any stretch of the imagination do you think I can? Unless, of course, as indicated above, it is nothing more than your usual flame bait.

[Merko]

Because it is as stupid as your assertion I have sock puppets.

It was not my assertion. I certainly don't believe you are Steverino. He seems to be more reasonable than you.

[SteveGrenard]

Sorry: severian's assertion to which you injected yourself and I was replying. Nebermind.

Is there any other derailing of the Somalia conflict that you would like to engage in?

[UserGoogol]

Also lest anyone doubt the creeping spread of islam throughout Africa, based on Islamic ambitions of African domination, the following map should lay that notion to rest. As the dark and light green areas demonstrate. Do we also really need to tell the apologists why islamicists want to control Africa and kill as many people as possible to accomplish that? It's called mineral wealth.

Do the illiterate, poorer jihadist fighters, whipped into an islamic fury, by the higher ups care bout mineral wealth or are they fighting to impose their religion? Yes they are led to believe they are in a holy war. But the higher ups, the Saudi type royals and other upper echelon muslims who support and push these agendas have their eye on that wealth. It would not be the first time the governing elite sent their supplicants into battle for a false notion while the true reason was to expand their own wealth. This is all about a giant land grab including that what lays below it.

It is naive to believe otherwise ...

I might be misunderstanding you, and I apologize in advance if I am, but that seems like something of a conspiracy theory. Islamic Jihadists, a fairly diverse group of people in so far as terrorists united by a common religion can be, are being manipulated by a bunch of upper echelon muslims who want to make the big bucks? That's not how the world works. We humans are tragically stupid creatures who are perfectly capable of coming up with bad ideas on their own without some nefarious cabal helping things along, to suppose one exists seems illogical. There are certainly some people trying to make some money off of it, but to call that the driving force seems a bit extreme.

[CFLarsen]

There are over 2000 press reports on the conflict right now. A fair numer of them provide reports such as the following which make optimism cautious and which why, I at least,think your question is premature. You may continue your ad hominem rantings while I try to explain to you that while you may think my response is rubbish, it is obvious you are merely regurgitating bait.

Evidence of further uncertainties underpinning my assertion that your question is extremely premature and meaningless at this point:

Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish.

You were, as always, very quick to cry wolf when the Islamists were starting "in earnest" their "jihad" meant to "Islamicizing the greater horn of Africa and moving south from there" only five days ago.

And to the last line above, I add the lesson of the "Mission Accomplished" banner. If the insurgency and guerilla fighting promised by the UIC fails to materialize over the next six months and things settle down in Somalia then the effort warrants a positive re-assesment.

But you have all the reservations in the world, when the shoe is on the other foot. You simply can't bring yourself to say that this Islamist insurgency was soundly beaten.

It is scaremongering, nothing else.

[Merko]

Is there any other derailing of the Somalia conflict that you would like to engage in?

No, I'd rather see we staid out of it. But this is what will happen: The IUC have been driven back for now, but they will surely not give up. Somalia will be torn back into the civil war it never really got out of, but which has been moderated by the IUC. Western countries will provide the 'government' and other selected warlords with weapons to keep this civil war up, with the rationale that it will hinder the 'jihad' which wasn't there in the first place. Some Muslim states may provide the IUC with weapons, additionally some African states may assist them because they are the enemy's enemy.

Eventually, the West will get itself another enemy and forget about the World Islamic Conspiracy much the way people quickly forgot about the World Communist Conspiracy. Then maybe Somalia can get peace.

[SteveGrenard]

No, I'd rather see we staid out of it. But this is what will happen: The IUC have been driven back for now, but they will surely not give up. Somalia will be torn back into the civil war it never really got out of, but which has been moderated by the IUC. Western countries will provide the 'government' and other selected warlords with weapons to keep this civil war up, with the rationale that it will hinder the 'jihad' which wasn't there in the first place. Some Muslim states may provide the IUC with weapons, additionally some African states may assist them because they are the enemy's enemy.

You are not alone in believing the Islamists will not give up.


Eventually, the West will get itself another enemy and forget about the World Islamic Conspiracy much the way people quickly forgot about the World Communist Conspiracy. Then maybe Somalia can get peace.

Complacency such as you describe may be the worst enemy.

And to Larsen's rant:

You were, as always, very quick to cry wolf when the Islamists were starting "in earnest" their "jihad" meant to "Islamicizing the greater horn of Africa and moving south from there" only five days ago.

Playing it down will not make the problem go away. Islamification of the Horn is still the stated goal of the UIC. Any fool can look at the map of Africa and (I blew it up for you) find the Islamo-Dixon line. Defenders of the UIC would like Africans below the line to minimize the threat, not be concerned and adopt the don't worry attitude. It sounds like your banging on that drum.


But you have all the reservations in the world, when the shoe is on the other foot. You simply can't bring yourself to say that this Islamist insurgency was soundly beaten.

It is scaremongering, nothing else.

And who would I, of all persons, be scare mongering? The Ethiopians? The rest of Africa below the the green head of hair (for Islam) the continent has grown in the past few deacdes? They don't need me for that.

.

FRESH TWIST?

Analysts said a government victory was in no way certain and that the conflict could be about to take another turn.

"I think we're at a crossroads right now," said Ken Menkhaus, Horn of Africa specialist at Davidson College in Charlotte, North Carolina.

He said the government could exploit splits within the SICC and attract some members to join a unity government.

"But alternatively this could be the beginning of a new kind of war," Menkhaus said.

One in which the Islamists are going to fight their kind of war ... an asymmetrical war involving a combination of hit and run guerrilla attacks, car bombings, assassinations and possibly even selected acts of terrorism on other parts of East Africa."

Islamist leader Sheikh Sharif Ahmed said his forces were united and determined to push out Ethiopian forces, but had retreated to avoid more bloodshed.


http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-12-29T135208Z_01_L28593467_RTRUKOC_0_UK-SOMALIA-CONFLICT.xml&pageNumber=2&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage2


As one of the first to sound the warning (more than a year before the dramatic seizure of Mogadishu) about the gathering strength of radical Somali Islamists, I cannot but evince satisfaction at the recent turning of the tide, given the success of Ethiopian forces. The developments of recent months looked ominous—with Osama bin Laden’s June 30 endorsement of the ICU’s establishment of a proto-state, based on their interpretation of Islam and Ayman al-Zawahiri’s recent characterization of Somalia as the “southern garrison of Islam.” The rhetorical flourishes of Al-Qaeda commanders could find concrete expression as foreign radicals flowed freely into the country. And in November, a monitoring group created by the UN Security Council’s Sanctions Committee reported that international compliance with the more than decade-old arms embargo against the former Somali Democratic Republic was severely lacking, with the “usual suspect” state supporters of terrorism—including Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Syria—providing large quantities of armaments, personnel, and training to the ICU’s armed forces.
Ethiopia has made a major contribution to the war on Islamist terrorism in general, and the security of the Horn of Africa in particular, by taking on a dangerous Islamist threat that no one else would confront. It must now finish what it has started, lest it all have been in vain. The United States, which tacitly blessed the intervention, must now not only ensure that its proxy has the sufficient resources to achieve the necessary military victory, but also work diplomatically to ensure that Somalia’s political stability is consolidated—and the Horn is not lost.

http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=13266

[CFLarsen]

Playing it down will not make the problem go away. Islamification of the Horn is still the stated goal of the UIC. Any fool can look at the map of Africa and (I blew it up for you) find the Islamo-Dixon line. Defenders of the UIC would like Africans below the line to minimize the threat, not be concerned and adopt the don't worry attitude. It sounds like your banging on that drum.

Nobody is playing it down. But this "jihad", which you so confidently claimed had "begun in earnest" a few days ago, didn't stand a chance against a small military force. UIC got its derriere kicked, good and proper.

No "jihad" this time. You even manage to sound disappointed.

And who would I, of all persons, be scare mongering? The Ethiopians? The rest of Africa below the the green head of hair (for Islam) the continent has grown in the past few deacdes? They don't need me for that.

You have made it clear that your intention is to create a perpetual state of fear. We should all live our lives in continuing dread over these "jihads".

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-12-29T135208Z_01_L28593467_RTRUKOC_0_UK-SOMALIA-CONFLICT.xml&pageNumber=2&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage2

http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=13266

More moving of goal posts. You opened this thread to discuss the "jihad" in the Horn of Africa, not Africa in general.

[SteveGrenard]

Nobody is playing it down. But this "jihad", which you so confidently claimed had "begun in earnest" a few days ago, didn't stand a chance against a small military force. UIC got its derriere kicked, good and proper.

Well it certainly seems as if you are playing it down. The threat of conflict between the UIC and the Somali Government/Ethiopia has been raging for months, hence the "begun in earnest" phrase ...but

No "jihad" this time. You even manage to sound disappointed.

Do I have to constantly remind you that it was not I who used the word jihad but the various quotable sources for the UIC in the world's press? I gave examples above. The UIC was calling it jihad, they are still calling it jihad and promise to return. See Post#106. I will be dissapointed if this turns out to be true.

You have made it clear that your intention is to create a perpetual state of fear. We should all live our lives in continuing dread over these "jihads".

I have not created the fear, the Islamists who spread their religion, Koranic and Sharia based rule of law, are doing this all by themselves. They do not need me to help them. I agree we shouldn't let their terroristic activities and threats paralyze us with fear but we shouldn't turn our back on them either. By downplaying the truth Larsen you are creating vulnerabilities which, of course, happens to be a tactic used to defeat one's enemies. You are falling for it. We fell for it in Iraq and in many other conflicts where the opening days of a conflict were unabashed victories only to be followed by guerilla war, insurgency and a second front. I hope I am wrong.

A lot of people complain about Christian missionaries, but I have never heard of them doing military recruiting. This is just another example of activities going on in mosques that must be halted if terrorism is ever going to end. From AP:


Muslim missionaries from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Pakistan have been visiting mosques in East Africa to recruit young men for holy war.

Moderate Muslim leaders say the part-time preachers go from mosque to mosque spouting sermons of hate, then offer young men a chance to wage holy war in Iraq, Afghanistan or Pakistan.

A moderate Muslim leader in Tanzania says most older clerics try to warn their congregations that the extremists distort Islam.

Most people in Zanzibar follow a mystical form of Sufi Islam, which emphasizes peace and harmony, so they tend to reject the missionaries' fiery rhetoric.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/000996.php


Another website points to a far deeper agenda, that of da‘wa, or using taxpayer-funded schools to proselytize for Islam. www.DawaNet.com's goals are summed up by an article it hosts: "How to Make America an Islamic Nation." But what concerns us is a page, "Dawa in public schools," that portrays public schools as "fertile grounds where the seeds of Islam can be sowed inside the hearts of non-Muslim students. Muslim students should take ample advantage of this opportunity and present to their schoolmates the beautiful beliefs of Islam." This, the website asserts, is best achieved through both direct and indirect steps. Direct means overt da‘wa:…..

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2236





Muslim missionary activity (Dawah)

Dawah means to "invite" (in Arabic) to Islam, the second largest religion next to Christianity. From the 7th century it spread rapidly from the Arabian Peninsula with explorers, traders and caravans after the death of the prophet Muhammad.

Political leaders (originally the Caliphs, meant to head both religion and the universal Islamic community) actively and often aggressively spread their rule, thus spreading a wider Muslim social order. To those ends many waged holy wars (the military application of jihad 'by the sword', jihad bis saif) against non-Muslim states, or even declared a war holy against 'heretical' muslims. For example, the Islamic conquest of the Indian subcontinent proceeded through the 7th to 12th centuries.

In some Muslim states, other creeds were treated as a protected minority, such as the millets in the Ottoman empire and even the Hindu majority in 'Hind'(ustan) of the Mughal Empire - as long as they accepted Muslim rule, refrained from public worship and paid a tax called jizya. While these state actions certainly went further than strictly missionary activity, they served as a great aid in converting conquered lands. Once state authority was wrested from the Dar al-Harb (land of war) to the Dar al-Islam (land of Islam), Islamic rulers such as in the Balkans under the Ottoman Empire were relatively accommodating for non-Muslims, especially the people of the book" (Christians and Jews) - despite the controversial devshirme recruitment of Janissary troops under the Ottomans.

Islam moved into Europe, Africa and Southern Asia through explorers and later Arab generals, sometimes resulting in both small conflicts and larger battles like the Battle of Kosovo in 1448, the Fall of Constantinople in 1453, the 1456 Siege of Belgrade and the Siege of Vienna in 1529.

However, once the political expansion, "planting the green banner of faith" had met its limits, the focus had to shift from the "integral" model of Islamizing whole communities, to voluntary conversion drives, or "dawah", which had always been important.

Since the 20th century, funding by Muslim governments was used to open Islamic schools and mosques. Generous donations, especially from Gulf States, has enabled Islam to make significant advances, especially in Africa.

A Muslim missionary is often called a Caller to Islam which is the English adaptation of the Arabic word Da`ee or Da'i for one who proselytises for Islam.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionary


Larsen:More moving of goal posts. You opened this thread to discuss the "jihad" in the Horn of Africa, not Africa in general.

The problem in Africa is much larger than the Horn as significant and serious a problem as this is. If the UIV is allowed to prevail there they would build strength and move on which is why they must be stopped and defeated where they are. Don't for one minute think the above map is lost on the people and governments in the gray areas.

I find it hysterical that you of all people are all of a sudden complaining about derailment (which isn't derailment but relevant and connected) when you are the undisputed lord of derailment and goal post shifting.

[SteveGrenard]

Any lingering doubts or concerns are expressed in the press. I only know what I read about this as unlike yourself Larsen I have no special insight or secret information from the region:


Heavily armed troops were apparently forging their way to Kismayo, some 500 kilometres south of Mogadishu, Somali news agency Shabelle reported.

Meanwhile, Islamist leaders in Kismayo continued to urge followers to wage jihad (holy war) on Ethiopia, through guerilla war tactics.

"I call on the Islamic Courts fighters, supporters and every true Muslim to start an insurgency against the Ethiopian troops in Somalia. We are telling the Ethiopians in Somalia that they will never succeed in their mission," Shabelle quotes Islamist chairman Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed as saying.

Ethiopian Prime Minister Meles Zenawi said this week that the country's US-backed mission "to protect itself and the transitional government from terror attacks" was 75 per cent complete

The Islamists said their retreat was a change in military strategy and has threatened before that it would switch to a campaign of guerilla war tactics against Ethiopia.

Experts have warned that the Somali conflict could escalate into a regional war, and the UN has said some 10 countries are somehow meddling in the country's affairs.

http://www.playfuls.com/news_10_6862-Somali-Troops-Head-South-To-Remaining-Islamist-Bastion.html

This is from this morning's news.

[CFLarsen]

Well it certainly seems as if you are playing it down.

I'm not. So stop lying about it.

The threat of conflict between the UIC and the Somali Government/Ethiopia has been raging for months, hence the "begun in earnest" phrase ...but

If it has been "raging" for months, then this botched, amateurish attack by a small group is hardly evidence of it having "begun in earnest". Your description is just further evidence of your scare tactics.

Do I have to constantly remind you that it was not I who used the word jihad but the various quotable sources for the UIC in the world's press? I gave examples above. The UIC was calling it jihad, they are still calling it jihad and promise to return. See Post#106. I will be dissapointed if this turns out to be true.

What a load of crap, Steve. You are solely responsible for what you put in your own threads and posts. If you don't want to call it a "jihad", don't.

I have not created the fear,

That is a bald-faced lie. You were the one insisting that we should all live in continuous fear.

the Islamists who spread their religion, Koranic and Sharia based rule of law, are doing this all by themselves. They do not need me to help them.

You sure are quick to offer them your help, willingly.

I agree we shouldn't let their terroristic activities and threats paralyze us with fear but we shouldn't turn our back on them either. By downplaying the truth Larsen you are creating vulnerabilities which, of course, happens to be a tactic used to defeat one's enemies. You are falling for it. We fell for it in Iraq and in many other conflicts where the opening days of a conflict were unabashed victories only to be followed by guerilla war, insurgency and a second front. I hope I am wrong.

More rubbish and lies from you.

The problem in Africa is much larger than the Horn as significant and serious a problem as this is. If the UIV is allowed to prevail there they would build strength and move on which is why they must be stopped and defeated where they are. Don't for one minute think the above map is lost on the people and governments in the gray areas.

I find it hysterical that you of all people are all of a sudden complaining about derailment (which isn't derailment but relevant and connected) when you are the undisputed lord of derailment and goal post shifting.

You can find it as "hysterical" as you like, Steve. If you want to discuss the spreading of Islamistic ideas throughout Africa, do so. Just don't whine, when I point out that you are moving the goalposts.

Any lingering doubts or concerns are expressed in the press. I only know what I read about this as unlike yourself Larsen I have no special insight or secret information from the region:

I have not claimed special insight or secret information. Stop lying.

[SteveGrenard]

The Council of Islamic Courts, the umbrella group for the Islamic movement that ruled Mogadishu for six months, has pledged to continue its fight, despite military losses.

"I want to tell you that the Islamic courts are still alive and ready to fight against the enemy of Allah," Sheik Sharif Sheik Ahmed, the group's leader, told residents in Kismayo.

"We left Mogadishu in order to prevent bloodshed in the capital, but that does not mean we lost the holy war against our enemy," he added. The group wants to transform Somalia into a strict Islamic state.

The interim Somali government and its Ethiopian allies, who accuse the Islamic group of harboring al-Qaida terrorists, hope to close the net before the Islamists can slip away amid reports that some foreign fighters are trying to flee through neighboring Kenya or by boat.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/12/30/mogadishu.somalia.ap/

[SteveGrenard]

I'm not. So stop lying about it.

You may feel it is lying about you, but I am entitled to my opinion. It is that you have given every indication in the latter half of this thread to minimize and play down the threat the Islamic militants pose to the region as well as to all of Africa. The tactic is well known. When will we hear about the poor beaten downtrodden Islamicists who didn't have a chance against the government forces and their Ethiopian allies?


If it has been "raging" for months, then this botched, amateurish attack by a small group is hardly evidence of it having "begun in earnest". Your description is just further evidence of your scare tactics.

The UIC repeatedly called for holy war and jihad. They set the playing field.

Also they used the deception of defending their position when six months ago they were the invaders. You should check the definition of scare because you seem to be confusing it with "aware." Not only am I not suggesting anyone be scared of these bums, I am suggesting they vigorously defend against their incursion and desire to impose political and religious rule over a population who literally speaking, the day before, couldn't care less about them.


What a load of crap, Steve. You are solely responsible for what you put in your own threads and posts. If you don't want to call it a "jihad", don't.

This has got to be the most egregious example of shooting the messenger anyone has ever seen. It is also designed to stifle dissent and censor cited references. You honestly believe that every poster on this forum is solely responsible for "what" is put in their posts and threads when such insertions are quoted source material they did not originate but may rely on to support or dispute an argument. I suppose they ought to add this to the rules, calling it Larsen's Law#1.

And on that note, I insert the following reference just received from a much longer piece in today's Houston Chronicle. As you can see the Ethiopian liberators are getting a mixed reception and the UIC is still making threats. Again, I hope they are truly and completely defeated for good.


In northern Mogadishu, residents said men with scarves over their faces and assault rifles in their hands lurked on street corners. Mogadishu has plenty of gunmen, of every age and every clan, but gunmen hiding their identity is something new and may be a sign of a developing insurgency.

"We're going to turn this place into another Iraq," said Abdullahi Hashi, a construction worker who said he was part of a new underground movement to fight the Ethiopians.

Many analysts have said that if the Ethiopian troops protecting the internationally recognized transitional government of Somalia linger in the country too long and their intervention turns into a full-scale occupation, it will uncork a long and nasty guerilla war.

At the same time, it seems that many Somalis appreciate the presence of the Ethiopians for helping to bring some stability.

Just a few hours after the protests, thousands of residents came out to warmly greet Ali Mohammed Gedi, the prime minister of the transitional government and one of the leaders who called in the Ethiopian muscle.

Many people in Mogadishu are still absorbing the power shift that occurred this week, when the Islamists who once ruled much of the country quickly collapsed under Ethiopia's overwhelming force, enabling the transitional government to suddenly take control.

Islamist leaders said Friday that they were not simply giving up. While most of their troops have abandoned the cause — shedding their uniforms and shaving their beards — the Islamist leadership said it was regrouping in Kismayo, a city along Somalia's southern coast.

Not far from Kismayo is a lightly populated, forested area that Western intelligence officers said has served as a terrorist hideout for many years.


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/world/4434069.html


That is a bald-faced lie. You were the one insisting that we should all live in continuous fear.

Please cite where I wrote "we should all live in continuous fear." I said we should fear them and never turn our back on them. But your exaggeration of my statements makes a case for Larsen Law#2, which is always to rephrase and exaggerate a quote to make one's point.


You sure are quick to offer them your help, willingly.


Show me where I said I was offering them my help. Talk about lies, geez.



More rubbish and lies from you.

This is the best you can do? This is the substantial reply to a citation you can give?


You can find it as "hysterical" as you like, Steve. If you want to discuss the spreading of Islamistic ideas throughout Africa, do so. Just don't whine, when I point out that you are moving the goalposts.

You're the only one whining around here. You are a laugh a minute riot. Islamist ideas? Is this a joke? We are talking about forced conversions, conversion at the point of a gun and Shariazation with all that it entails as a legal system.



I have not claimed special insight or secret information. Stop lying.

Well you certainly make it sound like you know what's going to happen next. Maybe you just have the gift of prophesy eh?

[CFLarsen]

But I think there always needs to be concern and fear.

Your call.

[SteveGrenard]

UserGoogol: There are certainly some people trying to make some money off of it, but to call that the driving force seems a bit extreme.

If you think so. It doesn't take many to support the assertion. The pyramid is always smaller at the top. There is stratification in the Islam and it is naive to think that the upper strata aren't interested or would refuse profits as a benefit of islamization. I agree that the lower strata have their religious zeal as the driving force; but, the upper strata just manipulate it. e.g. Saudi royals & buddies funding Wahhabism.

Here is report exemplifying how islam recruits its jihadists:


Now a prisoner of war and admitted to Baidoa regional hospital, with an intravenous tube inserted in his left arm, Mohamed told PANA that UIC officials closed the school he was attending and forced everybody to go to war.

"I had a queer feeling because fighting a war was something that I never expected. Really, I was misguided," he said.

http://www.angolapress-angop.ao/noticia-e.asp?ID=498223

[Darth Rotor]

Sarcasm aside,

Are these "jihadists" succeeding or not?
At what, and on what time horizon? War is like a game where play is continuous, and it isn't over until one side quits.

DR

[AWPrime]

Its good to have a mild fear of bees when there are killer bees around.

[Darth Rotor]

Rubbish. If you can assess that this "jihad" had "begun in earnest" four days ago, based on the news, then you can describe the progress of this "jihad" as it is today.

Are these "jihadists" succeeding or not?
To Larsen and Steve:

You both seem to be arguing about the tip of an iceberg. Claus, your hard-on for Steve does you no credit. I understand your distaste for his position against skepticism, something you care about deeply. That does not need to color every discussion you have with him, on every topic. The matters in the Horn of Africa are beyond the bounds of Skepticism's survival or viability. The political aims of Islamists are not some chimera that Steve Grenard made up, they are a real political force in the world.

Various Jihadists, to include Al Qaeda, have been operating under their own timeline, and pursuing their own agendas, for some years in Somalia. The US CENTCOM has an operation (they certainly did while I was over in theater a few years ago) called JTF HOA (http://www.hoa.centcom.mil/). This is a Joint Task Force that deals with the Horn of Africa. It is technically a CTJF, a Combined Joint Task Force, in that US and allied forces work together.

Some maritime elements of that TF hit the news last year due to their successes against Somali pirates. Most of what is on JTF HOA's unclassified web site isn't the good dirt on what occurrs on the ground. I won't discuss details beyond a few points. (Note: my own Operational background includes knowledge of classified operations that I can't legally discuss: NDA rules, laws, etc.)

The US has had (see Robert Kaplan's "Imperial Grunts" for a good open source discussion of this matter) a low key, Spec Ops-CA-Psyops heavy mission in the Horn of Africa for some years. Its specific purpose is to counter the influence, at the local level, of the Al Qaeda/Jihadist agenda. The long term Al Qaeda aims are more like a political infiltration, and slow turn to the Jihadist, reactionary Muslim political side. Ethiopia, with its considerable Muslim popultion, has every reason to be concerned.

The overt Jihadist combat operations were risky, and seem to have been, perhaps, a premature tipping of the hand. For the past year, the Jihadists have made some gains over their previous position, but the outcome is still very much in doubt.

That the game isn't over does not mean that the US, and its allies, can pat themselves on the back and consider the game done thanks to a modest repuls of a Jihadi overture.

Clausewitz, for the sound byte: "In war, the outcome is never final." The set back for the Jihadist cause is a small part of a very long game, like a few bowls in a cricket match.

The sort of low intensity war that JTF HOA is working on is very much a matter of playing for the long term political gain. Steve may sound like a Cassandra to you, and be shrill, Claus. Perhaps you don't like him for a lot of reasons. That doesn't make him wrong on this matter.

DR

[hammegk]

I have a dream ... I see Steve, with gun, dressed as an air marshall on a plane Claus is just boarding, eyes nictating, alligator drumstick in hand ..

[SteveGrenard]

Thank you DR for taking the time and making the effort to explain the "law" of war. I, for one, found it very enlightening and applicable to this particular situation.

You have truly grokked this subject for us.

Grok (IPA /gɹɑk/ (GA) or /gɹɒk/ (RP), both rhyming with rock) is a verb that connotes knowledge greater than that which can be sensed by an outside observer. It is an understanding beyond empathy and intimacy. In grokking, one experiences the literal capabilities and frame of reference of the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok

------------------------------------------------------
Doesn't the US have a small base on the HOA? Camp Le Monier in Djibouti. Also the French have a much larger contingent there.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/djibouti.htm

[CFLarsen]

I'm still waiting, Steve.

[hammegk]

Are you holding your breath?

[SteveGrenard]

Needed:


Washington also should lean hard on the government of Saudi Arabia to crack down on the Wahhabi charity money that fuels the Somali Islamist war machine. If the Saudis don't want those petrodollars coming back at them in a few years as RPGs fired by anti-royalist fundamentalists based in Somalia, it behooves them to overcome the reservations they have shown about squeezing fellow Wahhabists.

Above excerpted from an essay in the Los Angeles Times December 22 by: Garrett Jones, a retired CIA case officer who has served in the Middle East, Africa and Europe.

The entire piece is worth a read at:

www.newsobserver.com/559/story/524005.html


Caution:


As a result, it is crucial to pay attention to what happens in Somalia from here on in ...

Because there is no reason to think that forces on EITHER side will be willing to let the other one triumph ...

Which means not only is this likely to go on for quite a while, becoming more and more bloody as time goes on, but that the burning embers of Somalia can very easily jump over to the Arabian peninsula and the rest of the western littoral of the Persian Gulf, which is already primed to explode as a result of the Sunni / Shiite conflict that Bush's insane invasion of Iraq has put front and center in the Arab / Muslim world ...

http://www.grokyourworld.com/louisxiv/2006/12/somalia_horn_of.html


Why?


In the Middle East, all concerned are totally convinced that God is on their side - at the same time, all concerned also have blood on their hands - all of them, and a lot of blood, too.

In laying out their narrative of how this miserable situation has emerged, most of what any one group says about its adversaries is pretty much correct - the problem is that they all leave out of their account any mention of anything THEY might have done to contribute to the on-going mess.

Speaking globally, nearly everyone in the world has a very strong - and very emotional -- opinion about what goes on in the region - especially, although not exclusively, in Israel / Palestine - but at the same time, no one - including the actors themselves - have the slightest idea of what's motivating the other actors in the situation ... except, of course, having instinctive knowledge about how to push the "Other's" emotional buttons.

(excerpted from grokyourworld above)

[CFLarsen]

Somali militia abandon stronghold (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6220797.stm)

Somali Islamist militiamen have fled the southern port city of Kismayo - their last major stronghold.

The retreat from Kismayo is seen as a major reversal for the Union of Islamic Courts (UIC), a militia that swept through much of Somalia last year.

A large-scale intervention by Ethiopian troops has helped the government seize UIC-held ground over the past week.

The Islamists had withdrawn to Kismayo on Thursday, after abandoning the capital Mogadishu as a result of heavy fighting involving Ethiopian artillery, tanks and aircraft.

But early on Monday, Somali Prime Minister Ali Mohamed Ghedi told AFP news agency: "Kismayo is already in the hands of the government. The Islamists have run away."

So much for this "jihad" beginning "in earnest" in the Horn of Africa. :rolleyes:

[hammegk]

Yeah, it's amazing what well-timed and well-placed force can accomplish.

[CFLarsen]

Defense Minister Says Last Somali Islamic Stronghold Has Fallen (http://www.fox19.com/Global/story.asp?S=5931924&nav=0zHF)
Ethiopian-backed government forces captured the last remaining stronghold of the Islamic movement in southern Somalia, the Somali defense minister said Friday, hours after warlords met with the president and promised to enlist their militiamen in the army.

The "Islamic jihad" started in "earnest" in the Horn of Africa, my butt.

[Darth Rotor]

The "Islamic jihad" started in "earnest" in the Horn of Africa, my butt.
This is 4GW, Claus, not a football match.

Per my previous post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2216502&postcount=114), I'll suggest that quite a few of the jihadis "melted back into the population" and weren't caught in that "stronghold." Time works to their advantage.

I find the folks who are crowing over this turn of events to be a bit shortsighted. I hope I understand correctly that such is not your intention, but rather to defuse a "chicken little" sort of message.

DR

[CFLarsen]

It was.

[SteveGrenard]

MOGADISHU, Jan 15 (Reuters) - Somali gunmen fired at a convoy of Ethiopian troops in Mogadishu in the latest attack on forces backing the government, threatening efforts to restore effective rule in the chaotic Horn of Africa nation.

Saying Mogadishu was "in chaos", President Abdullahi Yusuf appointed officials on Monday to take charge of the city where Somali troops, backed by Ethiopian forces, ousted Islamists in a lightning December offensive.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L15182922.htm

[Darth Rotor]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L15182922.htm

Heard that up to "three month's martial law" has been decreed, on the radio, and that the UN backs this decree.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Way to make the case for black helicopters. :p That is sure to please the people. :p

DR

[SteveGrenard]

The Islamic Courts Union/SICC is taking credit for attacks in Mogadishu yesterday or today or whatever day it is over there; they're handing out leaflets admonishing/threatening anyone cooperating with the "government" will suffer the consequences

More

By Guled Mohamed

MOGADISHU, Jan 28 (Reuters) - Gunmen attacked a Somali security boss and fired rocket-propelled grenades at police stations in the latest wave of guerrilla-style ambushes on the government and its Ethiopian allies, residents said on Sunday.

Gunmen opened fire on Mogadishu Police Chief Ali Said's convoy on Sunday afternoon, witnesses said. He survived, but one civilian was wounded in the ensuing shootout.

(snip)

Leaflets circulating at the weekend in Mogadishu, and purporting to be from the defeated Somalia Islamic Courts Council (SICC), urged residents to avoid collaboration with Ethiopians or face "losing lives and property".



http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L28864678.htm

which just goes to prove that these islamic fanatics are not as easy to get rid of as some may want you to believe...let's see we got muslims fighting muslims in Somalia, we got them fighting each other in Gaza and the West Bank, in Iraq of course ... any place else?

[CFLarsen]

The Islamic Courts Union/SICC is taking credit for attacks in Mogadishu yesterday or today or whatever day it is over there; they're handing out leaflets admonishing/threatening anyone cooperating with the "government" will suffer the consequences

They'd have to, wouldn't they? I mean...now that your dire warning that the Jihad had "begun in earnest" turned out to be false.

which just goes to prove that these islamic fanatics are not as easy to get rid of as some may want you to believe...let's see we got muslims fighting muslims in Somalia, we got them fighting each other in Gaza and the West Bank, in Iraq of course ... any place else?

Gee! Some fanatic religious people are threatening others with leaflets!

Next, it will be the comfy chair!!

[SteveGrenard]

The "Islamic jihad" started in "earnest" in the Horn of Africa, my butt.

Yup.

Fighting deepens in Mogadishu
20/02/2007 21:01 - (SA)



Mogadishu - Fierce artillery battles between security forces and suspected Islamists killed at least 12 people in Somalia's capital on Monday night and forced thousands of residents to flee.

The fighting was the heaviest in the coastal city since Ethiopian troops helped Somali government fighters ousted the powerful Islamist movement from Mogadishu late last year.

http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/News/0,,2-11-1447_2072356,00.html



Yeah, it's over – Not. Oh well.

[CFLarsen]

Are you seriously comparing this with what you opened this thread with?

[SteveGrenard]

Hmm...let's see, you are saying I called for jihad? I don't think so. And unless you have some new definition of jihad for us to consider it is the islamic forces that are conducting this war, this "struggle" not me. You want to play it down, fine, your privilege but as you have been constantly reminded it is not over as much as you would like to have everyone think so. It was just a matter of time. These islamicists are 100% predictable and always will be.


NAIROBI, Kenya, Feb. 20 — Fierce mortar attacks killed more than 10 civilians in Somalia today, but this is the new status quo.

A series of attacks killed 10 people, doctors and witnesses said, and added further damage to one home, above.

Nearly every day, government forces and insurgents shell each other across Mogadishu’s already dilapidated neighborhoods, scattering limbs and any remaining traces of hope. Gun prices are soaring and more clans are joining the underground, while an outbreak of cholera sweeps the countryside.


www.nytimes.com/2007/02/20/world/africa

and 328 more reports at Google News this afternoon.

[Darth Rotor]

Hmm...let's see, you are saying I called for jihad? I don't think so. And unless you have some new definition of jihad for us to consider it is the islamic forces that are conducting this war, this "struggle" not me. You want to play it down, fine, your privilege but as you have been constantly reminded it is not over as much as you would like to have everyone think so. It was just a matter of time. These islamicists are 100% predictable and always will be.



www.nytimes.com/2007/02/20/world/africa

and 328 more reports at Google News this afternoon.
How soon before the UN attempts some enabling behavior and provides a mission to Somalia? Or, maybe, donor nations are skeptical that further aid will do any good.

We shall see, it is early yet in the game.

DR

[SteveGrenard]

from 2005:


news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/2/hi/africa/4382311.stm

Somali 'jihad' on foreign troops

A militant Somali Muslim cleric has warned of a Holy War or "Jihad" if foreign peacekeepers are deployed. Sheikh Hassan Dahir Aweys is a senior member of the Islamic courts, which has a militia, and is accused by the United States of having links to al-Qaeda.


The islamicists have been at their jihad thingie for several years now. It's just starting to warm up.....it's perfectly logical to state that with the onset of hostilities between the secular and islamic governments a few months ago the jihad was beginning in earnest ......



From 2006:


Somali Islamist orders 'holy war'

A Somali Islamist leader has ordered a "holy war" to drive out Ethiopian troops, after they entered the country to protect the weak interim government.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/5204212.stm


PS: Holy war is a euphemism also for jihad.