The Minimal Facts Approach to the Bible

[Pauliesonne]

Yes.

That's ok, I'll try anything once but I like a rich-flavoured smirnoff.

[Pauliesonne]

I love that you can find no alternative explanation.


How about your complete LACK of critical thinking.

[Zygar]

Guinness is good enough for me.

JamRan, hurry up and give us the location. I'm getting all excited to give up my life and worship at the tomb of Christ!

[The Atheist]

Yes.

That's ok, I'll try anything once but I like a rich-flavoured smirnoff.Hell, you can rack up some Smirnoff, too. Should be a good party, who do we have so far?

Me, RandFan, SezMe, Zygar, you, RamJam (has to lead us to the tomb), Jesus, Santa, The Tooth Fairy, The Fairy Godmother, Tinkerbelle the Fairy, Bugs Bunny, Easter Bunny.

PARTYYYYY!

[Zygar]

Well written, thorough attack.

Thanks, Meg! Unfortunately, you are now the fourth person to make a solid attack on his stance, and so far his tactic is to disagree with one thing you said, then ignore the rest and tell you that you are disingenuous for not just accepting his baseless assertions.

[The Atheist]

Guinness is good enough for me.

JamRan, hurry up and give us the location. I'm getting all excited to give up my life and worship at the tomb of Christ!I think this is worthy of setting up a new church.

"Church of the True Knowledge of the Whereabouts of Jesus' Tomb" is just so unwieldy.

How about, "Church Under New Truth Science". Maybe we could even abbreviate that?

[Zygar]

I think this is worthy of setting up a new church.

"Church of the True Knowledge of the Whereabouts of Jesus' Tomb" is just so unwieldy.

How about, "Church Under New Truth Science". Maybe we could even abbreviate that?

Excellent! I love it. We can even refer to ourselves by the abbreviation.

[The Atheist]

Excellent! I love it. We can even refer to ourselves by the abbreviation.I'll just check whether Fred Phelps or Benny Hinn have the abbreviation trademarked.

[JamRan]

The quote of Josephus saying Jesus was crucified does not come from his questionable portion, so it stands.

Tacitus said "Christus, form whom the name had its origins, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate."

Lucian still mentions the distinquished personage of Christ who was crucified.

Mara Bar-Serapion still mentions the Wise King who was murdered.

Jesus is spoken of in the Talmud.

A hallucination is not an illusion. A hallucination is seeing something that is not there, but an illusion is seeing something that is there, but misinterpreting it.

The evidence we have of the tomb is in the Bible, so if you think there is another plausible scenario then suggest it with support. Without support it is not admissable or worth considering.

Since you can not overturn any of these 5 points, they stand and remain as part of God's Word that protects the Word in truth.

[JamRan]

We should get back to the resurrection because the resurrection makes or breaks the divinity of Christ. Most scholars accept:

1) There was a real person Jesus who died by crucifixion
2) The apostles believed they saw the risen Jesus
3) Paul converted because he believed he saw Jesus resurrected body
4) James converted because he believed he saw Jesus resurrected bodily
5) The evidence points strongly to the tomb being empty.

The challenge for the atheist then is to find a different scenario to these events than Jesus being God. If none is forthcoming, may you give your life to Christ.

[JamRan]

1) There was a real person Jesus who died by crucifixion

You should at least be able to agree with this. Are you there yet?

[JamRan]

Altogether there are 17 non-Christian sources that talk about Jesus within the first 150 years of his death. 12 refer to his death and 7 of his deity.

[JamRan]

2) The apostles believed they saw the risen Jesus
3) Paul converted because he believed he saw Jesus resurrected body
4) James converted because he believed he saw Jesus resurrected bodily

What I think matters though is the apostles were martyred with the testimony of Jesus seeing Jesus raised up. They would not have died for a lie, for they truly believed they saw Jesus raised.

[JamRan]

5) The evidence points strongly to the tomb being empty.

At a ratio of more than 3:1 non-Christian scholars do believe the tomb was empty (study done by G. Habermas).

[RandFan]

1) There was a real person Jesus who died by crucifixion

You should at least be able to agree with this. Are you there yet? No. Even if it were true this establishes nothing.

[RandFan]

Altogether there are 17 non-Christian sources that talk about Jesus within the first 150 years of his death. 12 refer to his death and 7 of his deity. Assuming this is true, and you haven't established it, it does not prove anything and it is unparsimonious. It is more likely that if Christ died people wrote down folklore about Jesus the same why early Americans wrote down folklore about their heroes.

[meg]

A hallucination is seeing something that is not there,

If you think that any of your posts are actually showing a logical argument for Jesus being god, you are hallucinating.

The challenge for the atheist then is to find a different scenario to these events than Jesus being God. If none is forthcoming, may you give your life to Christ.

A simpler explanation would be that the apostles lied.

[The Atheist]

5) The evidence points strongly to the tomb being empty.

At a ratio of more than 3:1 non-Christian scholars do believe the tomb was empty (study done by G. Habermas).:dl:

Priceless!

Hey, JamRan. Have you meet KuriousKathy, our resident fundie who is only ever able to speak in tracts and is unable to answer simple questions? She's single right now, her bloke chucked her in, but I could see you two hitting it off BIG time. Be a lot more fun than sitting here and repeating yourself endlessly.

[JamRan]

It establishes the first thing clearly, Jesus lived and died. Now we need to account for why the apostles believed they saw Jesus resurrected. Since no known hallucinations can account for it, Jesus must been resurrected, and because He is God, since only supernatural can resurrect, not the natural.

[RandFan]

2) The apostles believed they saw the risen Jesus
3) Paul converted because he believed he saw Jesus resurrected body
4) James converted because he believed he saw Jesus resurrected bodily

What I think matters though is the apostles were martyred with the testimony of Jesus seeing Jesus raised up. They would not have died for a lie, for they truly believed they saw Jesus raised. All tall tales. We can't verify any of these stories. Since they rely on magical events parsimony that they are as likely as the local magician actually sawing a woman in half.

[SezMe]

Guinness is good enough for me.
You guys keep worrying about what's on the drink cart. I want to know who's pushing it? Can we get Mary Magdelane? I hear she was pretty hot stuff. Any other harlots? Maybe we can put up some recruitment posters in Saddam and Gamorrah (sp?). They were a partying lot (ugh, what a pun).

[JamRan]

A hallicination is seeing something that is not there like a mirage in a desert, seeing an oasis.

[slingblade]

1) There was a real person Jesus who died by crucifixion

You should at least be able to agree with this. Are you there yet?

Nope. Not there, and probably not likely to ever get there.


Has JamRan proven to anyone's satisfaction yet that the Jesus of the bible was a real person, complete in the persona given in that work? You know, the leper-healing, dead-raising, water-walking guy?

[JamRan]

Since nothing in nature can cause nature to start, we know God did it. It would stand to reason then that God resurrected Christ because we can't account for it any other way; and there is no indication these were mere stories, but real life events.

[JamRan]

You would be calling Paul a liar and the apostles liars and James a liar for claiming Jesus did not exist. There is no reason to suspect this. They went to their death believing in what they really believed in as eyewitness accounts.

[RandFan]

It establishes the first thing clearly, Jesus lived and died. No, but let's concede it so we don't argue over it. Who cares?

Now we need to account for why the apostles believed they saw Jesus resurrected.1.) We don't know that they saw anything.
2.) We don't know if they were deluded.
3.) We don't know if they lied.
4.) We don't know if the stories were made up by someone else and told to other people who wrote it down.

Since no known hallucinations can account for it, Jesus must been resurrected, and because He is God, since only supernatural can resurrect, not the natural.Nope. There is too much we don't know and parsimony rules against magical events. It's more likely that something else happened.

[JamRan]

Those closest to the action admit Jesus was crucified in the Talmud, so this is a very basic fact.

[slingblade]

Since nothing in nature can cause nature to start, we know God did it. It would stand to reason then that God resurrected Christ because we can't account for it any other way; and there is no indication these were mere stories, but real life events.


"There are a number of fallacious ideas contained in this argument. The first is that it assumes that positing god as the creator of the universe somehow solves the problem posed by an infinite regress of causes. Believers who advance this argument tell us that god is the uncaused first cause of existence. However, this does not solve the problem. Any third-grade child could ask the obvious question: Who or what created god?

"If the believer insists that god does not require a cause, that he "just is," then why can he not accept the idea that the universe "just is?" Thus, we see that a natural universe requires the fewest assumptions. In logic this is known both as Occam's Razor and The Principle of Parsimony.

"Notice too another logical fallacy: the circular reasoning of the first cause argument. The believer is saying, in effect: "Everything except god has a cause. Therefore the cause of everything is god." The believer is bringing his conclusion, i.e. that god exists, into his premise, i.e. that everything has a cause. He is trying to exempt god from the first cause argument by simply insisting that god does not require a first cause without supplying any logical reasons why we should accept this as true. The believer tries to set up a "problem" (the existence of the universe) and then immediately try and exempt their "solution" from the foundational premise of the problem. Any believer who continues to use this argument after the fallacies are pointed out is simply proving that there is something other than intellectual integrity guiding his or her actions.

"It should also be pointed out that, since god is usually considered to be objectively unknowable, how does positing something unknowable (god) in place of the unknown (the origin of the universe) explain anything? Moreover, if god is going to be offered as an "explanation" every time we don't know something, why do we need science at all? This is the old "god of the gaps" argument and it too is fundamentally flawed: To ask for an explanation for a particular phenomenon of nature is to ask what specifically has caused it to come about. Answering the question by reference to a supernatural deity does not answer the question, for it tells us nothing at all about what this alleged god actually is, or of how it operates.

"This leads us to the most fundamental error of the first cause argument. The argument wrongly assumes that the universe requires a causal explanation. However, this falls apart once it is realized that the existence of the universe is the irreduceable primary at the base of all causal change. When we speak of the universe, we are speaking of all that exists. If a god exists, it is part of that existence. If it does not exist, it obviously cannot be the first cause of existence. Nothing is outside of existence. Even if it were granted that there were some kind of uncaused first cause, on what basis can it be argued that this must be a supernatural deity? A naturalistic first cause seems never to have entered into the thinking of god-believers. If there is a primary cause, it might just as well be existence itself, which we can perceive, rather than a supernatural agent, which we cannot."

http://atheistalliance.org/library/nelson-why_gods_cannot.php

[RandFan]

You would be calling Paul a liar and the apostles liars and James a liar for claiming Jesus did not exist. That is only ONE option. If it were the only option it would be far more likely that they lied than a man came back from the dead. But there are many other options.

There is no reason to suspect this.Sure there is.

They went to their death believing in what they really believed in as eyewitness accounts. 1.) We don't know this is true.
2.) They could have lied.
3.) This could have been a story told by someone else.

[JamRan]

We know they saw Jesus resurrected.
We know they could not have hallucinated
We know they told the truth
We know these facts were real events.

[The Atheist]

You guys keep worrying about what's on the drink cart. I want to know who's pushing it? Can we get Mary Magdelane? I hear she was pretty hot stuff. Any other harlots? Maybe we can put up some recruitment posters in Saddam and Gamorrah (sp?). They were a partying lot (ugh, what a pun).Hey, I'm fine with the Sodomites, but only if it's not compulsory.

Women, hey, KuriousKathy would be in and there was that supposedly hot christian, Sally. Mary Magdalene, sure. If Solomon could have a thousand concubines, some of them must have been ok.

[JamRan]

The apostles couldn't have lied because they would not go to their deaths with a lie; they really believed it.

[slingblade]

We know they saw Jesus resurrected.
We know they could not have hallucinated
We know they told the truth
We know these facts were real events.

No. We don't.

[RandFan]

Those closest to the action admit Jesus was crucified in the Talmud, so this is a very basic fact. Again, the Talmud is not a transcript from a court proceeding. But let's get that out of the way. Let's concede that Jesus lived and was crucified. What's next?

[slingblade]

The apostles couldn't have lied because they would not go to their deaths with a lie; they really believed it.

I don't believe in them, either.

When do you suppose you'll give up?

[meg]

Yup. They lied. What's so hard to accept about that?

Are you really saying it's easier to believe that dead body disappeared because the whole thing went straight up to heaven to be with his invisible friend than it is to believe some people lied?

[JamRan]

Fortunately God revealed Himself in creation through Christ.

[RandFan]

The apostles couldn't have lied because they would not go to their deaths with a lie; they really believed it. 1.) Sure they could have. It's unlikely but FAR MORE likely than a man coming back from the dead.
2.) The stories are tall tales.

[slingblade]

Fortunately God revealed Himself in creation through Christ.

I don't believe in either of them.

So your answer is "Not yet?"

[JamRan]

Lots of people don't believe in Jesus even with all the evidence. That is why there is a hell.

[slingblade]

Lots of people don't believe in Jesus even with all the evidence. That is why there is a hell.

And I don't believe in an afterlife.

So the amended answer is now "Never?"

[JamRan]

The apostles couldn't have lied because they would not go to their deaths with a lie; they really believed it. Since there is no explanation for seeing Jesus resurrected, then He must have been resurrected.

[RandFan]

Fortunately God revealed Himself in creation through Christ. Fortunately Zeus revealed himself on Mount Olympus. All hail Zeus.

[cyborg]

The apostles couldn't have lied because they would not go to their deaths with a lie; they really believed it.

Rubbish.

[slingblade]

Any believer who continues to use this argument after the fallacies are pointed out is simply proving that there is something other than intellectual integrity guiding his or her actions.

[JamRan]

All these experiences were real events. Paul lived that life because he was moved by God in seeing His Son resurrected.

[RandFan]

The apostles couldn't have lied because they would not go to their deaths with a lie; they really believed it. Since there is no explanation for seeing Jesus resurrected, then He must have been resurrected. 1.) Argument ad nauseam.
2.) Already dealt with.
3.) You are wrong.

[slingblade]

All these experiences were real events. Paul lived that life because he was moved by God in seeing His Son resurrected.


Any believer who continues to use this argument after the fallacies are pointed out is simply proving that there is something other than intellectual integrity guiding his or her actions.

[JamRan]

We should get back to the resurrection because the resurrection makes or breaks the divinity of Christ. Most scholars accept:

1) There was a real person Jesus who died by crucifixion
2) The apostles believed they saw the risen Jesus
3) Paul converted because he believed he saw Jesus resurrected body
4) James converted because he believed he saw Jesus resurrected bodily
5) The evidence points strongly to the tomb being empty.

The challenge for the atheist then is to find a different scenario to these events other than Jesus being God. If none is forthcoming, may you give your life to Christ.

[RandFan]

All these experiences were real events. Paul lived that life because he was moved by God in seeing His Son resurrected. This is a claim. It is a story. It can't be proven.

[slingblade]

He's a stubborn little cuss, isn't he?

[The Atheist]

That is why there is a hell.Thank god for that!

The thought of having to spend all of eternity listening to the bleating of outright bloody idiots, "I told you so" would make the pain of an eternity of red-hot pokers seem mild by comparison.

[JamRan]

Since there is no indication it is a story, it remains true.

[RandFan]

Most scholars accept. {claims snipped} No they don't. You simply claim this. It is not true.

[cyborg]

Most scholars accept:

**** most scholars -we have higher standards.

believed they saw thehe believed he sawhe believed he saw

Gossip. Gossip. Gossip.

The challenge for the atheist then is to find a different scenario to these events other than Jesus being God.

Jesus is Satan.

[slingblade]

Wow. this got boring really fast.

Merry Christmas there, Atheist and RandFan!!

[JamRan]

I think it has been settled. I came here to see if anyone could fathom an explanation for these 5 points, but they can't. And I am glad.

1) There was a real person Jesus who died by crucifixion
2) The apostles believed they saw the risen Jesus
3) Paul converted because he believed he saw Jesus resurrected body
4) James converted because he believed he saw Jesus resurrected bodily
5) The evidence points strongly to the tomb being empty.

God did it! He wins, you lose.

[RandFan]

Since there is no indication it is a story, it remains true. Every indication is that it is just a story. Parsimony dictates that it is just a story. It's just magical thinking.

[The Atheist]

He's a stubborn repetitive, boring, evasive little cuss troll, isn't he?

Fixed yours, too!

[RandFan]

I think it has been settled. I came here to see if anyone could fathom an explanation for these 5 points, but they can't. And I am glad.

1) There was a real person Jesus who died by crucifixion
2) The apostles believed they saw the risen Jesus
3) Paul converted because he believed he saw Jesus resurrected body
4) James converted because he believed he saw Jesus resurrected bodily
5) The evidence points strongly to the tomb being empty. It's just a tall story. Be glad for that.

[JamRan]

Since you can find no indication it is a story, it must be true since we have mutliple attestation for the resurrection of Christ and they died for this testimony.

This means you are going to hell. That's too bad.

[The Atheist]

Wow. this got boring really fast.

Merry Christmas there, Atheist and RandFan!!Merry Christmas, Sling!

Pretty good trolling though. Have to credit where due. 8 pages in 12 hours or so and he hasn't done anything but spout exactly the same ridiculous assertions.

I'll award him the Christophera Award for religious trolling.

[JamRan]

Imagine spending an eternity in hell consciously aware you made he wrong decision?

[JamRan]

I would not wish this on my worse enemy, for notice the words God uses to describe this place. He is trying everything possible to convince you not to go there, so when you go there it will be totally justified.

[The Atheist]

Imagine spending an eternity in hell consciously aware you made he wrong decision?I like it hot.

[cyborg]

God did it! He wins, you lose.

Argument by declaring yourself the winner.

Don't see that too much.

[JamRan]

We lock people up in jail because they are bad people; God locks people in hell for eternity to keep you eternally separated from His sons and daughters. That is a very loving thing to do.

God will not annihilate you, because you are considered intrinsic value to God not instrumental value.

[The Atheist]

I would not wish this on my worse enemy, for notice the words God uses to describe this place. He is trying everything possible to convince you not to go there, so when you go there it will be totally justified.It will. My Episcopalian friends tell me that the sky-daddy is going to give me one last chance to accept him when I snuff it.

I think spitting in his face will probably ensure my eternal torment in hell. All my mates are there, think I want them to have all the fun?

[JamRan]

cyborg,

That's the power of the Holy Spirit, revealing the truth. The only difference today is atheists don't have the courage like they use to to kill Christians like James and Stephen.

[cyborg]

He is trying everything possible to convince you not to go there,

Except, it would appear, anything that would work. And for a so-called "almighty" god trying just does not impress me.

Do or do not. There is no try.

so when you go there it will be totally justified.

Glad that makes you feel easier about being a tool of evil.

[JamRan]

I am just glad I am not going where you are going. It's hot in there!

[meg]

If you want to dedicate your life to a fairy tale, jamran, you just go right ahead. I'm not interested. I'd rather dedicate myself to a life of learning.

[JamRan]

God does everything according to His righteousness and holiness, and that includes doing everything in His might to convince you not to go to hell, but you are made in His image, so you are free to go there still if you don't want to be saved.

[RandFan]

Imagine spending an eternity in hell consciously aware you made he wrong decision?Sure, whatever. I'll imagine what it wasn't like to be a Buddhist, Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, etc., etc.

[cyborg]

That's the power of the Holy Spirit, revealing the truth.

No, that's a delusional Internet user thinking that divine forces give a crap about what is clearly quite an insignificant enough existence that it feels a strong compulsion to mentally masturbate furiously in the face of porn-stars with mighty schlongs who just look on in bemusement.

The only difference today is atheists don't have the courage like they use to to kill Christians like James and Stephen.

Which atheists were those then?

[JamRan]

meg,

Know you are in a fairy tale called puff the magic dragon the universe happened all by itself. That's magic!

[The Atheist]

Ship! Sorry, mate, I forgot to give you your Trolling Score.

Interesting subject: 0/10
Appeal to audience: 10/10 (8 pp in 12 hours is better than Unter and guns.
Typically ignorant Trolling posts: 10/10 (complete lack of answering questions and repeating the same post ad nauseum, a perfect score.)
Timing: starting thread about Jesus on Christmas day: 10/10

30/40, a 75% strike rate. Exceptionally good for a first thread. Do you have an encore?

[RandFan]

God does everything according to His righteousness and holiness, and that includes doing everything in His might to convince you not to go to hell, but you are made in His image, so you are free to go there still if you don't want to be saved.:words:

[slingblade]

So, does this get reported as spam, or will the mods pick it up after egg nog and present unwrapping?

[JamRan]

Still thinking you can come back like a goat eh?

Some of the worse atheists ever: Hitler, Stalin, Polpot.

Something for you to strive for I guess.

[The Atheist]

I am just glad I am not going where you are going. It's hot in there!Yeah, but it's a dry heat.

[cyborg]

Know you are in a fairy tale called puff the magic dragon the universe happened all by itself. That's magic!

I fail to see why this is a problem for you since you seem to like magical events.

[JamRan]

This is why you lose:

Know you are in a fairy tale called puff the magic dragon the universe happened all by itself. That's magic!

[slingblade]

"Come back like a goat?"

OMG, I know what you mean! The Marquis' goat has the BEST comebacks EV-ER! You should have heard what he told tobias that one time? Oh, man! It was priceless!

I wish I could comeback like THAT goat, fer shur man!

[RandFan]

This is why you lose:

Know you are in a fairy tale called puff the magic dragon the universe happened all by itself. That's magic! That's nice.

[JamRan]

Logic states if you see someone resurrected in multiple group settings and there is no way that is possible according to known psychology, then that person was really resurrected (assuming it is not a twin) supernaturally since it is not possible naturally.

[The Atheist]

So, does this get reported as spam, or will the mods pick it up after egg nog and present unwrapping?Oh, I dunno. As long as we keep humouring him, we have only ourselves to blame.

It's kinda fun, shooting christians - even trolling ones, on their god's birthday. The joy of it being a troll is that it's not like a real person where you'd be worried about actually hurting someone's feelings, because it's just a troll and not a real person or opinion. At worst, it's a loony fundie who probably belongs to Southern Baptist.

Have some fun, borrow my AK47 and have a few rounds at 'im!

Help take the christ out of Christmas.

[cyborg]

Still thinking you can come back like a goat eh?

Like a goat? I don't know anyone who would think like that - which may explain some things.

Some of the worse atheists ever: Hitler, Stalin, Polpot.

Hitler was a Catholic.

Something for you to strive for I guess.

Do you strive to be like the Spanish Inquisition? Because this is like a Monty Python Sketch of it.

[JamRan]

Lot's of people don't mind going to hell, they really don't. So the make up magic:

The fairy tale called puff the magic dragon the universe it happened all by itself. That's magic!

[cyborg]

Logic states if you see someone resurrected in multiple group settings and there is no way that is possible according to known psychology, then that person was really resurrected (assuming it is not a twin) supernaturally since it is not possible naturally.

Logic states that dead people don't rise from the *********** dead.

Q.E.D.

[JamRan]

I love it. I can come here and an atheist has no explanation for their:

Fairy tale called puff the magic dragon the universe it happened all by itself. That's magic!

[cyborg]

[B]Lot's of people don't mind going to hell, they really don't.

No. Could you take your abject failure of an ass out of here now? You are a disgrace to your god.

[JamRan]

Logic states dead people don't rise naturally. It doesn't says anything about supernatural resurrection.

[slingblade]

So, we're having a spiral sliced ham, with pineapple glaze, AND a roast turkey. Homemade mashed potatoes, gravy, two kinds of dressing, green beans, rolls, pumpkin and sweet potatoe pies.

What are you folks planning?

Oh, and the thread needs one of these:


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_5604458fa4f96753f.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3323)

[The Atheist]

350 posts today. Already over half the size of the "I don't get..." thread, which has been around since the 8th.

I might have to raise those points a bit, eh?

Tell you what Ramjan, I'll make it an 80% rating. This is great trolling - keep it up and you'll be in the troll Hall of Fame.

[cyborg]

I love it. I can come here and an atheist has no explanation for their:

Fairy tale called puff the magic dragon the universe it happened all by itself. That's magic!

Explain god.

[JamRan]

I am just glad I am not going to hell like you are. Hell is for bad people. I bet you weren't aware you are a bad human being in God's eyes, that is why He has no choice but to put you hell with Satan, the Antichrist and the False Prophet. I think it has something to do with:

The fairy tale called puff the magic dragon the universe it happened all by itself. That's magic!

[cyborg]

Logic states dead people don't rise naturally. It doesn't says anything about supernatural resurrection.

So... logically why couldn't I posit a supernatural psychological delusion? If a natural one is as impossible as a natural resurrection...

[JamRan]

God is triune: God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit. The Father spoke, the Son created, the Spirit executed. When I pray, I pray to the Father, through the Son by the Spirit.

[Zygar]

JamRan, you know nothing, and you have provided nothing.

[The Atheist]

So, we're having a spiral sliced ham, with pineapple glaze, AND a roast turkey. Homemade mashed potatoes, gravy, two kinds of dressing, green beans, rolls, pumpkin and sweet potatoe pies.

What are you folks planning?

Oh, and the thread needs one of these:


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_5604458fa4f96753f.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3323)

Pussy pics are always welcome.

Christmas dinner was hours ago. Ham & chicken, roasted + roast potatoes, yorkshire pudding, broccoli, carrots & fresh corn. Washed down with a drop of finest champagne. Very bloody tasty, if I say so myself. (and I'm allowed to, since I spent all frigging day cooking it!)

[meg]

Logic states if you see someone resurrect the same irrational argument in multiple postings that there is no way that is possible according to known psychology for him to be sane, then that person was really deluded (assuming he is not an idiot) naturally since it is not possible supernaturally.

[JamRan]

Psychology is not supernatural. It's natural. You're contradicting yourself when you say supernatural natural.

A delusion is somethin wrong in the mind. It is not a hallucination seeing something that is not actually there like a mirage in a desert.

[grayman]

Still thinking you can come back like a goat eh?

Some of the worse atheists ever: Hitler, Stalin, Polpot.

Something for you to strive for I guess.

Worst mass-murderer ever: God (the flood).

Something for you to strive for I guess.

;)

[cyborg]

I am just glad I am not going to hell like you are. Hell is for bad people.

Yes bad people... bad as in AWESOME.

Of course you're glad you're not going. You know how inadequate you'd be compared to everyone else.

I bet you weren't aware you are a bad human being in God's eyes,

Couldn't give a frell, god don't get to choose the fact that I'm a bad mamma jamma.

that is why He has no choice but to put you hell with Satan, the Antichrist and the False Prophet.

Can they dance?

[slingblade]

Pussy pics are always welcome.

Christmas dinner was hours ago. Ham & chicken, roasted + roast potatoes, yorkshire pudding, broccoli, carrots & fresh corn. Washed down with a drop of finest champagne. Very bloody tasty, if I say so myself. (and I'm allowed to, since I spent all frigging day cooking it!)

Ohhh, yorkshire puddings! I love them. We're having broccoli, too. Hee, I forgot it's already been Christmas elsewhere. :blush:

[The Atheist]

Logic states if you see someone resurrect the same irrational argument in multiple postings that there is no way that is possible according to known psychology for him to be sane, then that person was really deluded (assuming he is not an idiot) naturally since it is not possible supernaturally.Nah, just a troll. Little boy at home while his mommy and daddy have gone out for Christmas.

Not sick, just playful. Like Sling's kitten. Similar IQ.

[JamRan]

We should get back to the resurrection because the resurrection makes or breaks the divinity of Christ. Most scholars accept:

1) There was a real person Jesus who died by crucifixion
2) The apostles believed they saw the risen Jesus
3) Paul converted because he believed he saw Jesus resurrected body
4) James converted because he believed he saw Jesus resurrected bodily
5) The evidence points strongly to the tomb being empty.

The challenge for the atheist then is to find a different scenario to these events other than Jesus being God. If none is forthcoming, may you give your life to Christ.

[JamRan]

I am just grateful hell exists for you. I consider this God's grace to me to keep you eternally separated from me.

[Zygar]

This is rather embarrassing to watch. It's a little like watching someone masturbate in public or something.

[The Atheist]

Ohhh, yorkshire puddings! I love them. We're having broccoli, too. Hee, I forgot it's already been Christmas elsewhere. :blush:Haha!

Only half an hour left of Christmas day here!

[cyborg]

Psychology is not supernatural. It's natural. You're contradicting yourself when you say supernatural natural.

If you say so. Clearly you're a highly qualified expert on psychology.

A delusion is somethin wrong in the mind. It is not a hallucination seeing something that is not actually there like a mirage in a desert.

Right - so you're saying there's no supernatural ones... you know like visions from god, that sort of thing? Never happens you say? Only natural one's are possible?

Right-e-o. So be it. Your decision. Just remember there is a quote feature.

[Zygar]

Whatever happened to our flight to the tomb of Christ? He seems to have forgotten all about it.

[The Atheist]

That's a whole page in 15 minutes.

Even 80% ain't enough for this guy, this is impressive trolling. It's reached critical mass now and everyone's coming for a look.

85% rating and rising, Jam or whatever the hell your name is, this is brilliant work.

[cyborg]

I am just grateful hell exists for you.

Thanks.

I consider this God's grace to me to keep you eternally separated from me.

Oh no, no, no, you should consider it your god's grace to keep you separated from Hell so the awesome people can get on with it without the inadequates spoiling the buzz.

[grayman]

This is rather embarrassing to watch. It's a little like watching someone masturbate in public or something.

Then don't sit next to me at TAM.

[meg]

We're having orange glazed ham with baby carrots, salad, artichokes, potatoes, and cranberry cake, I believe.

[JamRan]

Isn't He loving? We are all born into sin, and we will all perish except that by God's gracious love, He offers us a way out through the cross. So by accepting His gift of salvation through the precious blood of forgiveness, we can be redeemed and receive eternal life. Nothing is more beautiful than such mercy and grace.

[JamRan]

But if you prefer to call Jesus a liar, then hell is certainly for you. That is just the kind of person you are, so just accept it and try to be happy in hell, cut off from God's plan for those whom He loves.

[cyborg]

Isn't He loving?

Never really noticed that quality from helium.

He offers us a way out through the cross.

Helium offers us ways out through crosses?

[slingblade]

Hey, JimRum, you can have an avatar now!

[JamRan]

Heaven is for everyone, but Hell is for those who don't want Heaven.

[cyborg]

But if you prefer to call Jesus a liar, then hell is certainly for you.

I prefer to call Jesus a square and yes, Hell IS for me. I already pointed this out. Very slow on the uptake aren't you?

That is just the kind of person you are, so just accept it and try to be happy in hell,

Try? Yeah, that'll be so difficult.

cut off from God's plan for those whom He loves.

What's your god's plan for those helium loves?

[cyborg]

Heaven is for everyone, but Hell is for those who don't want Heaven.

No, Hell is for those who are bad enough. We don't want just any old tripe in Hell.

[JamRan]

Pascal's Wager says if Christianity is true, but you reject it, nothing could be worse for you than hell. But if you are wrong, it doesn't matter anyway.

A gambler may bet against God because he wants satisfication now over the next 30 years in the backdrop of 13.7 billion years, but a card counter bets with Christianity every time.

[cyborg]

A gambler may bet against God, but a card counter bets with Christianity every time.

Card counters get kicked in the balls and thrown out of the casino.

Are you saying you're card counting scum?

[JamRan]

Think of it this way.

There is the dimension called hell. It is for the purpose of keeping you away from people like me when I will be in the new city on the new earth with God and the Lamb.

[cyborg]

Think of it this way.

"It".

There is the dimension called hell. It is for the purpose of keeping you away from people like me when I will be in the new city on the new earth with God and the Lamb.

No, it's purpose is to serve people like me who are bad. You are kept out for not meeting the mark.

[JamRan]

It's possible I will get kicked out this forum and the world as a martyr, but there is always another casino, just like there is always the resurrection.

Satan says stop using your mind, don't count the cards, but guess.

[Zygar]

I am a card counter, but the odds on Xtianity are so F$%^ing low that I won't ever bet it again.

[Zygar]

He's a martyr everyone! We're going to kick him out of the forum, then hunt him down, apparently.

[JamRan]

Pascal's Wager says however the low the odds may be about Christianity being right, they are still better odds than atheism or agnosticism or hinduism or buddhism or liberal Christianity.

[cyborg]

It's possible I will get kicked out this forum and the world as a martyr, but there is always another casino

Do they have the same odds?

just like there is always the resurrection.

Or supernatural natural psychological delusions.

Satan says stop using your mind, don't count the cards, but guess.

No, Satan says Blackjack is for pussies and that's why you suggested it. He wants to play poker. Yet again it shows how only awesome people deserve Hell.

[RandFan]

But if you prefer to call Jesus a liar, then hell is certainly for you. That is just the kind of person you are, so just accept it and try to be happy in hell, cut off from God's plan for those whom He loves.Is that it?

[Zygar]

Pascal's wager was undereducated.

[JamRan]

IT's interesting. The odds for all of us are very low, but only one of us wins.

[cyborg]

Pascal's Wager says however the low the odds may be about Christianity being right, they are still better odds than atheism or agnosticism or hinduism or buddhism or liberal Christianity.

Is Pascal's Wager the name of the croupier? I think he's just trying to get the maximum cash out of you for the house you know.

[JamRan]

Pascal's wager could not be overturned. So it must be true, as sure as 2+2=4 for the undereducated.

[cyborg]

IT's interesting. The odds for all of us are very low, but only one of us wins.

The house always wins. They wouldn't have the game otherwise. Must turn a profit you know.

[Zygar]

JamRan, Only one person wins! Doesn't that suck a little for you if you turn out not to be the one?

[JamRan]

Pascal's wager is the casino game we are playing.

[slingblade]

Oh, honey, we don't know what you are playing, but it isn't with a full deck, that's for sure.

[cyborg]

Pascal's wager could not be overturned. So it must be true, as sure as 2+2=4 for the undereducated.

2+2=11 - I don't know what this '4' you speak of is.

[JamRan]

One group of people win as I am the one person here representing that group. I am willing to give up all wealth and pleasures of this life for this opportunity to be with God. It's assured now by the Holy Spirit.

[Zygar]

Wait, we're in a casino? Crap. I need to find more of those hookers.

[cyborg]

Pascal's wager is the casino game we are playing.

Can Pascal make a Wager and make the game? Sounds like a bent game to me! There are laws about this sort of thing you know!

[JamRan]

There is a very special feeling knowing you have something so few other people have to know that God has chosen me before the foundations of the world, and has chosen you for eternal perdition.

[Zygar]

One group of people win as I am the one person here representing that group. I am willing to give up all wealth and pleasures of this life for this opportunity to be with God. It's assured now by the Holy Spirit.

We already told you. Tell us the location. The exact location of the tomb, and we will go and worship and give up our lives to Christ. Just tell us the exact location.

[RandFan]

One group of people win as I am the one person here representing that group. I am willing to give up all wealth and pleasures of this life for this opportunity to be with God. It's assured now by the Holy Spirit. Who cares?

[meg]

So you believe this claptrap just because you're scared not to?

[cyborg]

One group of people win as I am the one person here representing that group.

Are you legally given that power? I think betting on their behalf would be fraudulent otherwise.

I am willing to give up all wealth and pleasures of this life for this opportunity to be with God.

Prove it.

Disconnect from the Internet. Throw your PC out of your window. Declare that you are giving away everything you own to the street - Christmas after all. Take off your clothes and go outside and start walking.

See ya.

[Zygar]

There is a very special feeling knowing you have something so few other people have to know that God has chosen me before the foundations of the world, and has chosen you for eternal perdition.

Why are you trying to save us if he's already chosen us for perdition?

[slingblade]

There is also a very special feeling knowing you have just sat down in a puddle of warm cat-yak, and that your cat chose your seat in which to yak from before the foundation of the house, but has chosen your slippers for something even more heinous.

[RandFan]

There is a very special feeling knowing you have something so few other people have to know that God has chosen me before the foundations of the world, and has chosen you for eternal perdition.Good.

[RandFan]

Why are you trying to save us if he's already chosen us for perdition?:D That's a damn good question.

[Zygar]

You know, this Hell can't be all that bad if JamRan isn't going to be there.

[The Atheist]

20 minutes for the next page, it's slowing down.

And I'm off to bed.

7 more pages by morning?

Enjoy.

[JamRan]

Pascal's Wager was designed by God. It is the perfect game ever invented. It is surprisingly simple so that everyone has an opportunity to play to choose the levere which happens to be a cross.

If you choose Christ, you have eternal life if you are right. If you are wrong, nothing is worse. Torment in hell forever. If you don't choose Christ, but you are right, no big deal. You're annihilated. If you choose Christ, but you are wrong, no big deal. You're annihilated.

There is only one way to win if you can win at all.

[RandFan]

I've had enough. I'm going to go pray to satan and then go to bed after I cast a spell on some poster.

[JamRan]

Just like God righteously tries to save you even though He knows what you are going to do; Christians do the same to help you even though God knows if you believe. Just because you will not believe is no reason for us not to do the right thing.

[Zygar]

I choose Osiris. He's a much more believable God.

[meg]

There is also a very special feeling knowing you have just sat down in a puddle of warm cat-yak, and that your cat chose your seat in which to yak from before the foundation of the house, but has chosen your slippers for something even more heinous.

Amen, sister.

:)

[JamRan]

You don't need to know the exact location to the tomb. Such information does not change a thing.

[cyborg]

Pascal's Wager was designed by God. It is the perfect game ever invented. It is surprisingly simple so that everyone has an opportunity to play to choose the levere which happens to be a cross.

You know like Bacarrat at first you have no clue and then he's right - it really is so simple.

There is only one way to win if you can win at all.

A game you can't win? Hmm, call the gaming authorities - odds must be clear and precise.

[Zygar]

I've had enough. I'm going to go pray to satan and then go to bed after I cast a spell on some poster.

I should do the same. I have Christmas coming up.

[JamRan]

I figure about 1 in 200 people are saved

Since the first Adamic man about 4000 BC, there have been according to latest scientific findings (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/totalpopulation.htm) about 88 billion souls (May 24, 2006). From Adam to Christ there were 76 generations, and a generation averaged out to be 53 years (4000/76). I guess it averages out to 53 because they were having sex before and after the age of 53.

From Christ to today would be about 80 generations (2000 years/25=80) if a generation was 25 years of age. Since people live longer during the millennium, let's assume the average generation is 35 years, after all the average generation was over 50 years of age during the OT period. The generation is commensurate in part with average age. In the millennium we count 29 generations (1000 years/35). 5 billion souls seems like a nice non-overpopulated population size for earth during the millennium. 5 billion x 29 generations = 145 billion souls born in the millennial kingdom.

The New City (Rev. 21) on the New Earth (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/SCLrevelations#newearth) is about the size of India or half the size of United States, for which any more than 1.2 billion resurrected-saved becomes overcrowded. If we assume the savings ratio can not get worse in the millennium than the previous dispensations, then the savings ratio for the 88 billion souls prior to the millennium can not be better than for the 145 billion souls in the millennium, so let us be generous and assume the same savings ratio, at a very minimum, for all dispensations. This creates a formula. 1.2=A*88 + A*145, where A is the savings ratio. A = 1/194 are saved across the OT period, the church age and millennial kingdom.

What happens when you add 100 years from now to the moment before Christ appears (Zech. 14.4) and the millennium starts? There would be about 4 more generations at an average of 9 billion per generation which equals 36 billion souls. During the Great Tribulation, 1/3 of the people of the earth die (Rev. 9.18), so it would seem reasonable that there be at least 7.5 billion before the Great Tribulation starts. As the millennium progresses the population could balance out to average 5 billion. The formula now reads 1.2=B*(88+36) + B*145. B = 1/224 are saved across all dispensations. The further we move forward in time the worse the savings ratio gets.

If we assume the savings ratio remains fixed at 1/194 for the millennium, what then would be the ratio for previous dispensations in 100 years from now? The formula would be 1.2=C*(88+36) + 145/194. In 100 years from today, C=1/274 are saved from Adam to today. What this shows is that the savings ratio during the church age gets absurdly low if Christ returns in 100 years from now. Pray for a soon return of Christ, because it is less likely a person would be saved if Christ returned in 500 or a 1000 years from now. Already, many might say 1 in 194 souls is too low.

Conclusion: this is an intriguing possibility that Christ will return this century, but it is not a declaration. I assume I could still be wrong about some important details that render a different conclusion (however, none have presented to me better estimates).

[cyborg]

Just like God righteously tries to save you even though He knows what you are going to do;

Helium knows what we're going to do? Hmm, maybe precognition requires helium in the brain?

Christians do the same to help you even though God knows if you believe. Just because you will not believe is no reason for us not to do the right thing.

Which is to fumble about like an incompetent fool and make your god look stupid?

[JamRan]

Can you improve these estimates?

[cyborg]

I figure about 1 in 200 people are saved

YOU figure? Come now JamRan, if you really are going to say the above is your working then you do realise that is basically lying and lying is a sin right?

[slingblade]

I figure you're a right nutter!

merry, merry, everyone. I'm going to bed. There's a turkey wants cooking in about 4 hours.

:xmas0662

[cyborg]

Can you improve these estimates?

I can make up numbers sure. That's really easy!

[JamRan]

You have about a 1 in 200 chance of winning, but if you are an atheist it is more like 1 in 500 or 1 in a 1000, whereas for those in Christendom it is more like 1 in 30 or something like that. For Roman Church, they ought to know better not to be involved in sinless goddess worship so their odds are probably like 1 in 500 of being saved for having a pope and claiming eternal life can be lost after new birth.

[Doubt]

Since you can find no indication it is a story, it must be true since we have mutliple attestation for the resurrection of Christ and they died for this testimony.

This means you are going to hell. That's too bad.

Two of the better parts of Christian dogma are compassion and understanding. You are lacking in these. Somehow I cannot imagine that a compassionate god would find your certainty of the fate of others as “Christian like” behavior. I also don’t see how a compassionate god could reject unbelievers whom otherwise live a moral life.

I do find it rather interesting that when asked about god’s inhuman treatment of infants with cancer you appeal to mystery but claim to know the will of god when it comes to unbelievers.

Since our would be Christian has now unmasked himself as a bigot who believe in a god that plays games rather than practices compassion, I think it is time to treat him a bit less gently.

Now speaking as an agnostic and former catholic, I don’t know that there is not a god. But as a person who can use the basic tools of critical thinking, I know that there is no good proof for the god that this particular fool believes in. Or any other for that matter.

But one of the better ways to show what a joke conventional monotheistic religions can be was provided some time back by Doctor X.:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=24549&page=2&highlight=incompetent


Right. Nothing like a real observation. So here is a real observation that requires explanation. Children and adolescents develop a rather nasty tumor of the brain stem. It is infiltrative and not emenable to surgery, radiation or chemotherapy. The latter two merely prolong the decline.

The decline? As with real estate, the watchword for the central nervous system is "location!" The tumor destroys the descending voluntary pathways and centers for the cranial nerves [Enervate facial musculature.--Ed.] whilst preserving the sensory pathways. The child progressively losses control of her body up to her eye muscles--which allows some rudimentary communication. Since the "trigger" for consciousness is located "higher up" she remains conscious throughout the months of decline.

Of course, she can FEEL every ulcer, every pain. She remains completely aware of her condition and deterioration.

Eventually, on a tracheostomy, she will succumb to an infection.

Now, this is not only a real case, it is all too frequent.

This is a case of Unjustified Suffering unless you or anyone else can find some manner in which to justify it. Notice that I do not attack the death--people die. Perhaps she was destined to be the next Celine Dion. . . . It is the Extent and Severity of the suffering that renders it Unjustified Suffering.

If die she must, far quicker and less-severe methods do end a tyke's existence. Forced listening of country-western music, for example.

Since No Alleviation of her suffering occured, we can choose from one of the Five Possible Choices [All Rights Reserved.--Ed.]:

1. No Deity Exists
2. A Deity Exists and He is Evil
3. A Deity Exists and He is Incompetent
4. A Deity Exists and He is Irrelevant
5. A Deity Exists and He is Some Combination of 2-4

you are, of course, free to choose from any one of the Five.

--J.D.



Also note that the Doctor does not post here anymore and we are not exactly on good terms. But the argument is still pretty good.

[JamRan]

These numbers are based on scientific estimates.

[cyborg]

You have about a 1 in 200 chance of winning, but if you are an atheist it is more like 1 in 500 or 1 in a 1000, whereas for those in Christendom it is more like 1 in 30 or something like that. For Roman Church, they ought to know better not to be involved in sinless goddess worship so their odds are probably like 1 in 500 of being saved for having a pope and claiming eternal life can be lost after new birth.

You ass is quite FULL of fractions is it not?

[JamRan]

The formula is no more complicated than this.

Nothing in nature happens all by itself, therefore the uncreated created. Only Jesus fulfills this characteristic. He said He is the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end: All things sum up in Christ.

[cyborg]

These numbers are based on scientific estimates.

Science tells me people don't rise from the dead.

[JamRan]

Do that Math!

[slingblade]

HELLFIRE!

[cyborg]

So, nothing happens by itself apart from Jesus?

So Jesus is nothing is what you are saying?

[JamRan]

Science says naturally man can't rise from the dead. Science doesn't disallow supernatural rising from the dead.

[JamRan]

Have You Noticed Science Can't Prove Itself.

[cyborg]

Do that Math!

I'm too stupid for math. If I could do math do you think I would be gambling against Christianity - sorry - I mean gambling against Christianity, NOT including LIBERALS:mad: :mad: :mad: or CATHOLICS :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

?

[JamRan]

You would not exist if Jesus didn't make you in His image. You could not choose if He did not give you free-choice.

[Zygar]

76 generations? I can trace 15 generations back to only 550 years ago. That number seems a little small.

[cyborg]

Science says naturally man can't rise from the dead. Science doesn't disallow supernatural rising from the dead.

It doesn't disallow supernatural hallucinations either.

Glad we established it's all a big dream then.

Have You Noticed Science Can't Prove Itself.

Prove itself what?

[Zygar]

Crap. He discovered the color and size buttons. This trolling is out of control.

[JamRan]

Mark My Words. Hell is for every soul that rejects the Word and everyone here has been brought close enough to the Word so you have no excuse when you reject the Word. This shows what a bad person you really are that you still reject Christ who died for you. Feel that!

[Doubt]

You would not exist if Jesus didn't make you in His image. You could not choose if He did not give you free-choice.

Jesus was not the part of the holy trinity that claims to have created man.

[cyborg]

You would not exist if Jesus didn't make you in His image.

Is that why I have facial hair at the moment?

You could not choose if He did not give you free-choice.

Do I have to pay for the next choice? Is this a promotional Christmas thing or something? Boy, do I hate the crass commercialisation of Christmas. Totally goes against the spirit of the thing.

[Zygar]

JamRan, have you been on this forum before? Perhaps under another name?

[JamRan]

This is fun!

[slingblade]

Can someone explain to me how to report posts? I know you click the little ! button. Then a page with a text box appears. What goes in the text box?
Do you send them a link to the post(s), or C&P the posts, or what?

[JamRan]

Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Trinity that created man.

[Small Town Jesus]

B]Mark My Words. Hell is for every soul that rejects the Word and everyone here has been brought close enough to the Word so you have no excuse when you reject the Word. This shows what a bad person you really are that you still reject Christ who died for you. Feel that![/B]

You think everyone who has cancer somehow deserves it.

I hope there is a special place in your hell for people like you.

[Zygar]

Hey, JamRan, you've provided nothing, so you're not convincing anyone that we're being lost by making your words bigger and colorfuller. (Yes I made up that word, what are you going to do about it?)

[cyborg]

Mark My Words.

With SHIFT or LMB or doesn't that matter?

Hell is for every soul that rejects the Word and everyone here has been brought close enough to the Word so you have no excuse when you reject the Word.

The Word was cancelled some time ago. Is there a Christmas special on Channel 4 or something?

This shows what a bad person you really are that you still reject Christ who died for you. Feel that!

Feel that! Get down! I'm bad. I know it. Yes I am. BAD.

Wow! Yeah... UH.

[JamRan]

They give you this function so you can use it, not so you can report those who use it. Get real!

[cyborg]

What goes in the text box?

"JamRan is either an ******* or insane - either way he must be stopped!"

[slingblade]

Guess I scared him.


Anyway.......anyone?

[meg]

Well, all the big brightly colored letters are driving me away. Too hard on the eyes. Guess I won't get saved tonight. Damn. Oh well.

Night night all.

[JamRan]

Well, this place is too boring. I have never met such a bunch of dullards before in my life, though if I had to compare I would say that SAB actually could be worse, and IIDB.org comes third. So SAB comes first, Randi comes second and IIDB comes third. Hold on. That gives too much credit to IIDB.org. They are very retarded there too. Ok SAB is most moronical, IIDB and Randi are tied for second place for mental retardation. Just calling it like I see it.

[cyborg]

IT'S TROY!

I knew it!

Disappointed nobody will play with you on SAB? Oh well, sucks that you are quite as pathetic as you are I know but ta ta for now then.

Sure we'll see you again when you get tired of talking to yourself on your forums.

[slingblade]

Oh, Troybot! How fun! Not. Now I really am going to bed. Or back to play Warcraft.


Aw, screw it. who needs sleep?

[Doubt]

This is fun

But then in post #425:


Well, this place is too boring.


Mentaly ill perhaps? Or lying? Or does making inconsistent statements make you a better Christian?

ETA: And those post were only 5 min. apart!

[cyborg]

Doubt, no point. It's Troy. He pretty much sees himself as a Messiah. He's as fruity as they come. I had my suspicions but he confirmed it by calling us 'dullards'. Best not to think about it unless you're prepared to enter a sad, sad world of mental illness.

[Doubt]

Doubt, no point. It's Troy. He pretty much sees himself as a Messiah. He's as fruity as they come. I had my suspicions but he confirmed it by calling us 'dullards'. Best not to think about it unless you're prepared to enter a sad, sad world of mental illness.

I do give him credit for one thing. He makes me happy I am not a Christian.

If I were still Catholic, I might suspect that he is not really a Christian and just an atheist trying to make Christians look bad.

[Pauliesonne]

Just to pause this thread for a sec....

Right now, I'm watching Babe and he just said, " I want my mom. " while the sheepdog held him.

I think I'm going to cry a flood.

[Elizabeth I]

Can you at least accept they believed they saw? If not, why?
What difference does it make if they believed, or if I believe they believed?

Son of Sam believed his dog was telling him to kill people. I believe he was sincere in his belief. That doesn't keep him from being a dangerous lunatic who needs to be shut up for his and our protection.

[Elizabeth I]

A simpler explanation would be that the apostles lied.
Or we could be generous and assume that they were honestly mistaken.

Or suffering mass hysteria.

[Elizabeth I]

Those closest to the action admit Jesus was crucified in the Talmud, so this is a very basic fact.

Crucified in the Talmud? That was one big scroll! Were they able to get the crosses for the two thieves in there two, or just the one?

ETA: what IS it with these people and spelling, grammar, syntax and punctuation?

[Zygar]

Wow. That guy was disturbingly nutty.

[Terry]

They give you this function so you can use it, not so you can report those who use it. Get real!

"they" give it so it can be used to add clarity to complex discussions, not so people can pretend they are playing with crayons.

[The Atheist]

OH, what did you go and suspend him for? You've ruined my prediction about how many extra pages there'd be overnight.

I see page 11 only took 19 minutes to fill, we were on a roll.

[DangerousBeliefs]

Lots of people don't believe in Jesus even with all the evidence.

I didn't see you post much. A scholarly discussion of a historical Jesus doesn't have great evidence.

For the sake of dozens of your posts, lets just say there was a guy named Jesus.

Please show any evidence that he did anything mentioned in the Bible.

I say this because here is a guy with large crowds of people following him... the Romans (allegedly) kill him, and yet... when we go to look for evidence of his great deads, all we have are Christian stories from well after his death.

All the sources you've posted so far are very brief mentions of some guy named Jesus.

On an aside, I would ask that if you believe that JC is the son of God, how do you reconcile the apparent situation of OT... that most of it appears made up? Do you just ignore it? Was Moses just a good story? JC seemed to think he was a real guy, really hanging out with the Egyptians.

[Foster Zygote]

IT'S TROY!

I knew it!

Disappointed nobody will play with you on SAB? Oh well, sucks that you are quite as pathetic as you are I know but ta ta for now then.

Sure we'll see you again when you get tired of talking to yourself on your forums.

Oh. He's the sad little nutter who talks to himself on his own private forum, banning any and all comers, eh?

[Zygar]

OH, what did you go and suspend him for? You've ruined my prediction about how many extra pages there'd be overnight.

I see page 11 only took 19 minutes to fill, we were on a roll.

Well, he did manage to get 169 posts in a period of under 11 hours. Impressive.

[The Atheist]

I didn't see you post much. A scholarly discussion of a historical Jesus doesn't have great evidence.

For the sake of dozens of your posts, lets just say there was a guy named Jesus.

Please show any evidence that he did anything mentioned in the Bible.

I say this because here is a guy with large crowds of people following him... the Romans (allegedly) kill him, and yet... when we go to look for evidence of his great deads, all we have are Christian stories from well after his death.

All the sources you've posted so far are very brief mentions of some guy named Jesus.

On an aside, I would ask that if you believe that JC is the son of God, how do you reconcile the apparent situation of OT... that most of it appears made up? Do you just ignore it? Was Moses just a good story? JC seemed to think he was a real guy, really hanging out with the Egyptians.Pah!

Far too obvious.

Good post, mate. Pretty much how I see it, word for word. This is why I live to take the piss out of them. JamRan? Was that supposed to be a play on Jam[es]Ran[di]?

(I kept getting his name messed up with RamJam who did an outstanding version of Black Betty eons ago.)

[Region Rat]

I just wanted to be a part of this thread. Just missed the star of the show.

Hey mom, look at me!
<jumping up and down behind the newscaster on camera>

From the repitition, I thought it had to be Troy also. Very similar to his "The 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible" threads.

[Ryokan]

Hinduism and Buddhism are false since you can't come back as a goat.

And where does the Buddha claim you can come back as a goat?

I bet you just pulled that out of your ass, didn't you?

[The Atheist]

Well, he did manage to get 169 posts in a period of under 11 hours. Impressive.Yeah, well I had his troll rating up to 85% before I went to bed.

He couldn't help himself in the end, though. Coming out with the large stuff was ultimately his undoing. He had the opportunity to continue on his merry way and this would have been 20 pages this morning, but he blew up. Couldn't take all the pressure and lost it, getting suspended.

FINAL Troll rating = 50%

Analysis: Was headed for trolling Hall of Fame, but getting suspended in the middle of the first attempt cost him dearly. A little more control would have got him over 90. Lasting under 24 hours lost further points. Christophera still in no danger.

[The Atheist]

Very similar to his "The 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible" threads.
Have to ask why they bother with four, or five, or ten. After all, they really only have one and it's the only one they need - "because god says so".

I know a bloke in Morrinsville who has a chat to Jesus in his paddock every morning. How the hell are you ever going to convince that guy that he's completely insane? Outwardly, he lives his [peculiar] life and does no harm. Yet he's as out of touch with reality as Samuel Berkowitz.

[SezMe]

We're having orange glazed ham with baby carrots, salad, artichokes, potatoes, and cranberry cake, I believe.
How come I never hear anybody talk about adult carrots?

[SezMe]

Maybe he was before my time because I have no recollection of this "Troy" Tell me more. Is he active at another circus forum where I can admire his work.

[qayak]

How come I never hear anybody talk about adult carrots?

You're too young, we don't want to corrupt you. :D

[Region Rat]

Maybe he was before my time because I have no recollection of this "Troy" Tell me more. Is he active at another circus forum where I can admire his work.

Troy has been banned from JREF. He used to hang out at this christian forum here http://biblocality.com/forums/index.php. (http://biblocality.com/forums/index.php) This place is a hoot. Members get banned for even asking a question that might be considered anti christian, or might show that the questioner is not a true believer. You have to pass a believers test to get in.

He also spammed another forum under the name of Parture. He was banned from there also.

Check out this thread: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=51794&highlight=troy

Enjoy.

[Foster Zygote]

Troy has been banned from JREF. He used to hang out at this christian forum here http://biblocality.com/forums/index.php. (http://biblocality.com/forums/index.php) This place is a hoot. Members get banned for even asking a question that might be considered anti christian, or might show that the questioner is not a true believer. You have to pass a believers test to get in.

He also spammed another forum under the name of Parture. He was banned from there also.

Check out this thread: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=51794&highlight=troy

Enjoy.

Wow, that was fun! Why haven't we officially adopted Tricky's color coding system?

[The Atheist]

Troy has been banned from JREF. He used to hang out at this christian forum here Can't be the same guy - completely different MO.

[cyborg]

Oh it's him. He recently went on a spree at the SAB forums. His style is quite recognisable and he called us dullards. Trust me - that seals it.

[meg]

I found a link today which (I think) is pretty interesting, which discusses the differences between the accounts of the resurrection, and the disagreements between bibilical scholars as to what it all means, or what really happened. I realize the troll is gone now, but thought, since his arguments were based on a "scholars agree" premise, that it might be useful to share this:


http://www.johnhick.org.uk/article14.html

[RandFan]

I found a link today which (I think) is pretty interesting, which discusses the differences between the accounts of the resurrection, and the disagreements between bibilical scholars as to what it all means, or what really happened. I realize the troll is gone now, but thought, since his arguments were based on a "scholars agree" premise, that it might be useful to share this:


http://www.johnhick.org.uk/article14.htmlExcellent, thanks.

Here's a great video that goes over much of the same. It starts with the OT and is more than an hour long though.

2061773048178434620&q

[Zygar]

Good stuff, Meg and RandFan. Thanks for the resources.

[AZAtheist]

Great video. I've seen a few documentaries like this and their generally consistent but I'm always left with the same question. After all of the information uncovered and noting that the bible is not historically correct, that it's politically motivated, and inconsistent with the facts why do people still look for their god in it? Why do people let it run their lives? Most of the videos end the same way. Generally, the narrator says something like, "Well I was disappointed with what I found but if you look at it literally, you're missing the point". Brings me back to what Kyle from South Park says after hearing the story of John Smith. He says something like, "You know this story and you still believe it?". Out of the mouths of poorly animated babes...

[RecoveringYuppy]

Has anyone in this 480+ thread mentioned that Mark comes in two forms, one of which doesn't mention the post resurrection appearances of Jesus? Pretty good evidence of myth building IMO.

[Ossai]

JamRan
These numbers are based on scientific estimates. Really? What were the studies? Is the raw data available? If they are based on actual estimates, then at least show where you got the population numbers from.

Now let’s actually look at what you posted. Since I’ve been gone for a few days and missed the interesting (i.e. coherent) portion of the thread I’ll start right in.
1. Jesus was not the first and only resurrection claimed. There are a number of other resurrections, prior to Jesus, listed in the bible, both OT and NT. If you go outside the bible, there are plenty of other resurrection stories in various other religions.
2. If, as you seem to claim, the earth is only a few thousands years old, then Jehovah is a liar and a deceiver.
3. The whole Garden of Eden bit is called entrapment. Kind of like handing a loaded gun with no safety to a two year old.
4. The Noaharcian flood did not happen. There is no evidence of it and literally mountains of evidence proclaiming it the steaming pile that it is.
5. Jesus didn’t actually bother to fulfill the messianic prophecies and is even directly exempt from claiming direct decent from David as per YHWH’s direct order and command. Thus without direct Davidic decent, even with the claim of second coming, Jesus cannot be the messiah.
6. If you would actually bother to read Paul, you would notice that Paul was preaching a very gnosis version of Christianity. Actually, if you would bother reading some contextual history, you may even learn that Paul basically took a moderate Jewish movement and transformed it into Hellenistic Christ cult. You’ll also notice that from that point to the end of the book, Jesus is mentioned but his teachings seem to be strangely absent and the writers seem more interested in laying down rules and expanding their powerbase.

Ossai

[kmortis]

JamRan
Really? What were the studies? Is the raw data available? If they are based on actual estimates, then at least show where you got the population numbers from.

Now let’s actually look at what you posted. Since I’ve been gone for a few days and missed the interesting (i.e. coherent) portion of the thread I’ll start right in.
1. Jesus was not the first and only resurrection claimed. There are a number of other resurrections, prior to Jesus, listed in the bible, both OT and NT. If you go outside the bible, there are plenty of other resurrection stories in various other religions.
2. If, as you seem to claim, the earth is only a few thousands years old, then Jehovah is a liar and a deceiver.
3. The whole Garden of Eden bit is called entrapment. Kind of like handing a loaded gun with no safety to a two year old.
4. The Noaharcian flood did not happen. There is no evidence of it and literally mountains of evidence proclaiming it the steaming pile that it is.
5. Jesus didn’t actually bother to fulfill the messianic prophecies and is even directly exempt from claiming direct decent from David as per YHWH’s direct order and command. Thus without direct Davidic decent, even with the claim of second coming, Jesus cannot be the messiah.
6. If you would actually bother to read Paul, you would notice that Paul was preaching a very gnosis version of Christianity. Actually, if you would bother reading some contextual history, you may even learn that Paul basically took a moderate Jewish movement and transformed it into Hellenistic Christ cult. You’ll also notice that from that point to the end of the book, Jesus is mentioned but his teachings seem to be strangely absent and the writers seem more interested in laying down rules and expanding their powerbase.

Ossai
Um, Ossai...JamRan was Troy. He's banned now. Good post tho.

[Ossai]

kmortis
Um, Ossai...JamRan was Troy. He's banned now. Good post tho. I’m off work this week and checking the forum sporadically, so I hadn’t had a chance to read the entire thread when I posted. Oh well.

[ChristineR]

Are you sure he's Troy? Troy didn't believe the earth was only a few thousand years old. Actually the age of the universe was fundamental to his "perfect" proof of the existence of God.

[cyborg]

He called us dullards and he referenced the SAB. He has a real love/hate relationship going with us.

[kmortis]

Are you sure he's Troy? Troy didn't believe the earth was only a few thousand years old. Actually the age of the universe was fundamental to his "perfect" proof of the existence of God.

Well, to be prefectly honest, no. I'm not sure. I'm about 75% sure it was him. They shared certain stylistic similarities, but I can't see through the networking wires, so I cannot tell for sure if they're one in the same. Maybe one of our illustrious mods will shed some light on this, but last I checked, there was no banning posting.

[Jono]

Bzzzt...Try again. The Talmud, which I have studied to a small degree, does NOT mention Jesus. At all. Period.

Yes one thing that is crucial to keep in mind is the fact that there were several people in the Talmud with the same/similar names.

For example, Rabbi Aaron Hyman in his extensive and biographical work on the sages of the Talmud compilations, Toldot Tannaim VeAmoraim, there in it lists some sixtyone different Elazars, fourteen different Hillels and seventyone different Hunas. Now, Josephus lists about twenty different men named Jesus, of these there were at least ten who lived around the time as Jesus Christ. (see John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew, p. 206 n. 6)

Balaam was a sorcerer described even way back before the times of Jesus, in in the Tanchuma [Balak, 5] and in Yalkut Shimoni [Numbers, 771].

As with the discussions and related commentary to the tractates of Shabbat 104 and Sanhedrin 64, therein "Ben Stada" is referred to, and here we see that there was a man named Ben Stada who was considered to be a practicer of black magic. With a mother who's named Miriam but also called Stada. The stepfather was named Pappos Ben Yehudah. And Miriam had an affair with a man named Pandira.

Naturally some might think that this Ben Stada, also known as Ben Pandira, was in fact Jesus. Ben's mothers name was Miriam which is similar to Mary, also Miriam was called "megadla nashaia", women's hairdresser.

But Jesus "stepfather" was Joseph and Ben Stada's stepfather was Pappos Ben Yehudah. Miriam was not Jesus mother and Mary wasn't a hairdresser. Finally, Pappos Ben Yehudah is a relatively known re-appearing figure from other places in the Talmud.

In the Mechilta Beshalach he's discussing the written-torah with Rabbi Akiva and in Talmud Berachot 61b, it is described how Pappos Ben Yehudah was captured and killed by Romans along with Rabbi Akiva. Rabbi Akiva is a known rabbi who lived during the second half of the first century, he was killed around the year 134. So, if Pappos Ben Yehudah was a contemporary of Rabbi Akiva then Yeshu Ben Stada must have been born well after Jesus had died (or ascended), therefor this Yeshu Ben Stada could not have been Jesus Christ.

Furthemore, a standard rabbinic comprehension of these Yeshu passages is that they refer to at least two completely different persons (cf. Tosafot HaRosh, Sotah 47a sv Yeshu, Shabbat 104b sv Ben Stada; Tosafot Shabbat 104b sv Ben Stada; R. Abraham Zacuto, Sefer Hayuchasin 5:6, R. Natan David Rabinowitz, Binu Shenot Dor Vador, pp. 422-425) .

Here's the two Yeshu's mentioned;

*Yeshu (Ben Stada) was around sometime during 100 CE. At times he was referred to Ben Pandira (he shared this name with another Yeshu) however he's mainly Ben Stada. The "Stada" is taken from his mother probably to differentiate him literally from Ben Pandira. He's said to have brought practices of magic/witchcraft from Egypt. His mother was, Miriam (referred to as Stada sometimes), a hairdresser. His stephfather was Pappos Ben Yehudah and Ben Stada was executed for idolatry.

*Yeshu (Ben Pandira) were out gallivanting around 80 BC, his mentor/rabbinical teacher was Rabbi Yehoshua (name sound familiar?) Ben Perachiah. Early he escapated Roman persecution and went to Egypt but when he came back he'd become an idolater. He, along with five of his followers were executed however his teachings remained for a couple of hundred years. His teachings is recorded to have disappeared with the death of Rabbi Yishmael who died 133.

In conclusion, considering the context and related commentaries of these Talmud folios, it is therefor doubtful that they were discussing Jesus Christ as opposed to the more factually relevant "Yeshus", self-proclaimed prophets was not an unusual occurence in those days.

[trashy]

Troy is here too? Sheesh! That guy gets around......

[kmortis]

Troy is here too? Sheesh! That guy gets around......

Troy WAS here. For about four or five months last year. He got banned for spamming, IIRC.

So, are you in the habit of necrothreadmancy?

[trashy]

it's not a habit, just an occasional random occurrence :)