What to tell the kids?

[MickinEngland]

I never married or had kids but no way would I ever force religion on them (or anybody else for that matter)
But kids ask questions so my advice would be to give them short simple one-line answers, eg -
Q - "Is there a God"
A - "Jesus said there is"

Q - "But why should we believe him?"
A - "Because God was his dad"

Q - "Was he a phoney?"
A - "He did lots of mind-blowing miracles and stuff"

Q - "But does that mean he's the Son of God?"
A - "Why would he lie?"

Q - "Perhaps he lied to become rich and famous?"
A - "Saying he was the son of God got him the death penalty, not fame and fortune"

Q - "Did he really exist?"
A - "The whole nation of Israel and the occupying Roman army saw him"

[Terry]

Q - "Is there a God"
A - "Jesus said there is"

Q - "But why should we believe him?"
A - "Because God was his dad"


a tad circular, isn't it?

[Zygar]

"The Bible is the Word of God because it says it is."

Yes, circular reasoning is all Christianity has going for them. They just hope you "believe" before you get around the circle and realize you are right back where you started.

[fuelair]

A tad circular??!!!!! It's Jesus on a jet propelled Merry-go-round! AND an overfull load.

[MickinEngland]

Ah, but if Jesus was just a run-of-the-mill guru we'd possibly be quite justified in telling him - "on yer bike mate, 'oppit!", but the fact is he did one or two little things that indicate we should maybe listen to him..
Wouldn't that be logical Mr. Spock?
"Yes I'm all ears Mick"

http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jmrcls.html
Bringing little girl back to life
Bringing widows son back to life
Bringing Lazarus back to life
Stilling the storm
Feeding 5000
Walking on sea
Feeding 4000
Coin in fishes mouth
Withering fig tree
Big catch of fish
Water into wine
Another big fish catch
Healing leper
Healing Centurions servant
Healing Peters mother-in-law
Healing sick at evening
Healing paralysed man
Healing haemorraging woman
Healing two blind men
Healing mans withered hand
Healing Canaanite womans daughter
Healing boy with seizures
Healing blind man
Healing deaf and dumb man
Healing another blind man
Healing crippled woman
Healing man with dropsy
Healing 10 lepers
Restoring a cut-off ear
Healing noblemans sons fever
Healing crippled man at Bethesda
Healing a born-blind man
Casting out demons into pigs
Curing a mute lunatic
Casting out dirty spirit
Curing a possessed blind-dumb man
Appeared to his followers after his death
----------------------------------------

[fuelair]

Yeah, right - and who says so: that source of trooth, that good book of raging silliness, that third rate collection of (mostly boring) stories - The Bibble. Sorry, proof needed. (See Dawkins. See scientific method. See research.)

And , no, Mick - Spock (assuming real,of course, )would say "Nope!" and I 'spects Leonard Nimoy, for a mildly different reason, would say "Nope!" also.

[qayak]

I'm sorry but Jesus isn't impressive at all. Benny Hinn does more than this before coffee break on any given Sunday.

Ah, but if Jesus was just a run-of-the-mill guru we'd possibly be quite justified in telling him -. . . (GENERAL SNIPPING OF BS)

[MickinEngland]

I'm sorry but Jesus isn't impressive at all. Benny Hinn does more than this before coffee break on any given Sunday.


Ah, so can we look forward to Hinn claiming the million-buck prize soon?
Sure, Hinn appeals to little old ladies and starstruck sycophants, but most true christians regard him as just another shallow showbizzy TV Evangelist who's not to be taken seriously..
He said once that Jesus will physically appear on stage with him.
Hmm.. that should boost ticket sales and ratings nicely.. ;)

[Kopji]

Happy Holidays to everyone who got a new computer for Christmas.

Mick's biblical reasoning is really about as good as it gets, and he deserves some thanks for not resorting to overly wordy posts and elaborate arguments.

[MickinEngland]

The Bibble. Sorry, proof needed. (See Dawkins. See scientific method. See research.)


Speaking of Dawkins, I had a short snail-mail correspondence with him a few years ago and we got on alright, he was a bit wary at first but softened when I said - "God wrote the Creation/Evolution program, then snapped his fingers to start it, THAT was the Big Bang, so of course I believe in evolution, it's God's handiwork!"

[Ducky]

I never married or had kids but no way would I ever force religion on them (or anybody else for that matter)
But kids ask questions so my advice would be to give them short simple one-line answers, eg -
Q - "Is there a God"
A - "Jesus said there is"

Q - "But why should we believe him?"
A - "Because God was his dad"

Q - "Was he a phoney?"
A - "He did lots of mind-blowing miracles and stuff"

Q - "But does that mean he's the Son of God?"
A - "Why would he lie?"

Q - "Perhaps he lied to become rich and famous?"
A - "Saying he was the son of God got him the death penalty, not fame and fortune"

Q - "Did he really exist?"
A - "The whole nation of Israel and the occupying Roman army saw him"


Why do you want to lie to the child? I bet you would lie about the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus too.

Why do you enjoy lying to children?

[I less than three logic]

Ah, but if Jesus was just a run-of-the-mill guru we'd possibly be quite justified in telling him - "on yer bike mate, 'oppit!", but the fact is he did one or two little things that indicate we should maybe listen to him..
Wouldn't that be logical Mr. Spock?
"Yes I'm all ears Mick"

http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jmrcls.html
Bringing little girl back to life
Bringing widows son back to life
Bringing Lazarus back to life
Stilling the storm
Feeding 5000
Walking on sea
Feeding 4000
Coin in fishes mouth
Withering fig tree
Big catch of fish
Water into wine
Another big fish catch
Healing leper
Healing Centurions servant
Healing Peters mother-in-law
Healing sick at evening
Healing paralysed man
Healing haemorraging woman
Healing two blind men
Healing mans withered hand
Healing Canaanite womans daughter
Healing boy with seizures
Healing blind man
Healing deaf and dumb man
Healing another blind man
Healing crippled woman
Healing man with dropsy
Healing 10 lepers
Restoring a cut-off ear
Healing noblemans sons fever
Healing crippled man at Bethesda
Healing a born-blind man
Casting out demons into pigs
Curing a mute lunatic
Casting out dirty spirit
Curing a possessed blind-dumb man
Appeared to his followers after his death
----------------------------------------

What a nice collection of unsubstantiated anecdotal claims. :rolleyes:

[MickinEngland]

I'm sorry but Jesus isn't impressive at all..


Tell him when you meet him and see who blinks first.. ;)
"Pray that you will be able to stand before me" (Luke 21:36)

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/2310/jesus2ra5.jpg

[Ducky]

Tell him when you meet him and see who blinks first.. ;)
"Pray that you will be able to stand before me" (Luke 21:36)

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/2310/jesus2ra5.jpg

OH, thanks for clearing that up. I was almost certain anglicanized facial features were non-existant in Jesus' homeland at his time of life. Good to know that the belief he was a white european guy still persists.

[Spindrift]

Ah, but if Jesus was just a run-of-the-mill guru we'd possibly be quite justified in telling him - "on yer bike mate, 'oppit!", but the fact is he did one or two little things that indicate we should maybe listen to him..
Wouldn't that be logical Mr. Spock?
"Yes I'm all ears Mick"

http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jmrcls.html
Bringing little girl back to life
Bringing widows son back to life
Bringing Lazarus back to life
Stilling the storm
Feeding 5000
Walking on sea
Feeding 4000
Coin in fishes mouth
Withering fig tree
Big catch of fish
Water into wine
Another big fish catch
Healing leper
Healing Centurions servant
Healing Peters mother-in-law
Healing sick at evening
Healing paralysed man
Healing haemorraging woman
Healing two blind men
Healing mans withered hand
Healing Canaanite womans daughter
Healing boy with seizures
Healing blind man
Healing deaf and dumb man
Healing another blind man
Healing crippled woman
Healing man with dropsy
Healing 10 lepers
Restoring a cut-off ear
Healing noblemans sons fever
Healing crippled man at Bethesda
Healing a born-blind man
Casting out demons into pigs
Curing a mute lunatic
Casting out dirty spirit
Curing a possessed blind-dumb man
Appeared to his followers after his death
----------------------------------------


And your primary sources for these are what?

Remember the gospel is a secondary source having been written long after the events and therefore are suspect as to accuracy.

How about this Q&A:
Q - "Is there a god"
A - No, I've never seen one. (excluding Eric Clapton, of course).

Q - "Shouldn't we believe in one?"
A - "No, some people feel the need to, but there has never been any real proof that a god, if it exists, really cares one way or the other if we believe in them."

Q - "Are gods phoney?"
A - "Yes"

Q - "Is Jesus the Son of god?"
A - "No"

Q - "Perhaps he lied to become rich and famous?"
A - "He may not have lied but his followers probably did."

Q - "Did he really exist?"
A - "Possibly but just because a person existed doesn't make them a god."

[Tricky]

Tell him when you meet him and see who blinks first.. ;)
"Pray that you will be able to stand before me" (Luke 21:36)

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/2310/jesus2ra5.jpg (http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/2310/jesus2ra5.jpg)
I've led a good and upright life and I have little to be ashamed of. If I meet Jesus and he tells me I have sinned because I was misled by the lack of evidence for his divinity, and because he and Dad did a p**s-poor job of delivering their message, then I'll not only look him in the eye, I'll spit in his eye.

Sic semper tyrannis.

[MickinEngland]

What a nice collection of unsubstantiated anecdotal claims.


But if you dismiss the Bible, you'd also logically have to dismiss
Confucius's 'The Analects', the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita and Upanishads, the Taoist Tao-te-Ching,the Buddhist Tripitaka,the Zoroastrian Zend-Avesta etc etc.
I mean, why single out the bible?

[Ducky]

But if you dismiss the Bible, you'd also logically have to dismiss
Confucius's 'The Analects', the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita and Upanishads, the Taoist Tao-te-Ching,the Buddhist Tripitaka,the Zoroastrian Zend-Avesta etc etc.
I mean, why single out the bible?


You didn't answer my question.

Why do you enjoy lying to children?

[MickinEngland]

Remember the gospel is a secondary source having been written long after the events and therefore are suspect as to accuracy."


Nah we know enough about the gospel-writers to be able to do a "This is Your Life" TV show about them.. ;)

Matthew the disciple, formerly Levi (Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27) son of Alpheus, was formerly a tax collector (Luke 5:29-30) one of the 12 apostles handpicked by Jesus (Matthew 9:9), he wrote his gospel between c.60 and 80 AD after Mark wrote his first.

Mark (Latin, "Marcus") also called John, Mark was a cousin of Barnabas (Colossians 4:10), a disciple of Peter (1 Peter 5:13) a helpful co-worker of Paul (2 Timothy 4:11), wrote his gospel c.60AD not long after some Apostolic Letters were written: i.e., James, Galatians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, and Romans. His mother was one of the Marys (Acts 12:12) from an influential and probably wealthy family, and so some speculated that the last supper was held in their home and that he was the young man in Mark 14:51-52 which is not in the other accounts.

Luke, a doctor (2 Tim. 4:11) and a gentile convert (Luke 1:2) probably by Paul who became his traveling companion (Acts 17:1; 20:5, 6-21:18 ). He wrote his gospel c.65 AD; and

John the disciple, (John 13:23) son of Zebedee, the brother of James the "greater" (Matthew 4:21; 10:2; Mark 1:19; 3:17; 10:35) wrote his gospel c.95AD, the last to be written before Revelation. Also from a wealthy family (Mark 1:20; Luke 5:3; John 19:27). His mother was probably Salome (Matthew 27:56; Mark 15:40). He was one of the closest disciples to Jesus among the twelve (Matthew 17:1; 26:37; Mark 5:37; 13:3). He was zealous (Matthew 20:20-24; Mark 3:17; 10:35-41; Luke 9:49, 54). He became one the leaders of the Jerusalem Church (Acts 15:6; Galatians 2:9) and of the seven churches in Asia (Revelation 1:11). He was banished to the island of Patmos where he wrote Revelation.

[brodski]

But if you dismiss the Bible, you'd also logically have to dismiss
Confucius's 'The Analects', the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita and Upanishads, the Taoist Tao-te-Ching,the Buddhist Tripitaka,the Zoroastrian Zend-Avesta etc etc.
I mean, why single out the bible?


we do dismiss all of the above, (well the non Buddhist atheists, agnostics and deists here do).

It is you who singles out the bible as being proof of something, whilst these other texts are not.

[Spindrift]

But if you dismiss the Bible, you'd also logically have to dismiss
Confucius's 'The Analects', the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita and Upanishads, the Taoist Tao-te-Ching,the Buddhist Tripitaka,the Zoroastrian Zend-Avesta etc etc.
I mean, why single out the bible?

The bible gets singled out more often because of the more militant proselityzing that goes along with it.

Who said anything about accepting any of those books as truth?

[Spindrift]

Nah we know enough about the gospel-writers to be able to do a "This is Your Life" TV show about them.. ;)

Matthew the disciple, formerly Levi (Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27) son of Alpheus, was formerly a tax collector (Luke 5:29-30) one of the 12 apostles handpicked by Jesus (Matthew 9:9), he wrote his gospel between c.60 and 80 AD after Mark wrote his first.

Mark (Latin, "Marcus") also called John, Mark was a cousin of Barnabas (Colossians 4:10), a disciple of Peter (1 Peter 5:13) a helpful co-worker of Paul (2 Timothy 4:11), wrote his gospel c.60AD not long after some Apostolic Letters were written: i.e., James, Galatians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, and Romans. His mother was one of the Marys (Acts 12:12) from an influential and probably wealthy family, and so some speculated that the last supper was held in their home and that he was the young man in Mark 14:51-52 which is not in the other accounts.

Luke, a doctor (2 Tim. 4:11) and a gentile convert (Luke 1:2) probably by Paul who became his traveling companion (Acts 17:1; 20:5, 6-21:18 ). He wrote his gospel c.65 AD; and

John the disciple, (John 13:23) son of Zebedee, the brother of James the "greater" (Matthew 4:21; 10:2; Mark 1:19; 3:17; 10:35) wrote his gospel c.95AD, the last to be written before Revelation. Also from a wealthy family (Mark 1:20; Luke 5:3; John 19:27). His mother was probably Salome (Matthew 27:56; Mark 15:40). He was one of the closest disciples to Jesus among the twelve (Matthew 17:1; 26:37; Mark 5:37; 13:3). He was zealous (Matthew 20:20-24; Mark 3:17; 10:35-41; Luke 9:49, 54). He became one the leaders of the Jerusalem Church (Acts 15:6; Galatians 2:9) and of the seven churches in Asia (Revelation 1:11). He was banished to the island of Patmos where he wrote Revelation.


Um, you can't use the text in question when trying to verify the veracity of said text. There needs to be another source.

[brodski]

You didn't answer my question.

Why do you enjoy lying to children?

I think he likes lying to children because his god likes child scarifies (see the story of Abraham, and the prophet Elijah ) and lying to children is about as close as the church can legally get to that these days... ;)

Atheists may make baby Jesus cry, but children’s tears are a like a delicacy to God, so really we’re giving Yahweh what he craves.

[volatile]

Nah we know enough about the gospel-writers to be able to do a "This is Your Life" TV show about them..

Or, in other words... "We know Peter Pan existed because J.M Barrie said he did".

[grayman]

I never knew Jesus had blue eyes.

And MickinEngland, if you lie to children you make baby Jesus cry.

[Tricky]

But if you dismiss the Bible, you'd also logically have to dismiss
Confucius's 'The Analects', the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita and Upanishads, the Taoist Tao-te-Ching,the Buddhist Tripitaka,the Zoroastrian Zend-Avesta etc etc.
I mean, why single out the bible?

How about this: We learn from the moral, useful parts of the bible and all those other books and dismiss the mythological parts.

Are you cool with that?

[volatile]

I mean, why single out the bible?


I think that's the atheist position in a nutshell, Michael.

[Fnord]

(Uh ... Mick? A word, mate... These guys ain't buying it. Trust me. Without material proof, no amount of anecdotal 'evidence' will convince them. Tell ya what; come up with an independent source of testimony of even one miracle, and you might get one or two of these blokes pause for thought. Otherwise, be satisifed that you have completed half of the Great Commission and move along. No sense wasting your wisdom on this crew. You know, "cast ye not thy pearls before swine" and all that. G'day!)

Come now gents, if a man believes that he is telling the truth, then how can he be accused of lying? This legal argument alone absolves anyone of the crime of perjury (or for that matter, the sin of false witness). Mick believes that what he is telling his kids is true, just as any Atheist believes that what he tells his kids is true.

What to tell the kids? Here's what:

"Mommy and daddy believe that there [is|is not] a supreme supernatural being, yet we respect your right to decide for yourself. We [will|will not] send you to a house of worship, but if you should ever decide otherwise, we will support you in that decision. In the meantime, we expect you to study hard in school so that you can make reasoned and informed choices without fear and with a minimum of error. And we love you, too."

Fair enough? Or should we send all kids to the same [secular|religious] brainwashing camp, regardless of their parents' freedom of choice in the children's upbringing?

-Fnord of Dyscordia-

[Forty-Two]

What to tell the kids? Here's what:

"Mommy and daddy believe that there [is|is not] a supreme supernatural being, yet we respect your right to decide for yourself. We [will|will not] send you to a house of worship, but if you should ever decide otherwise, we will support you in that decision. In the meantime, we expect you to study hard in school so that you can make reasoned and informed choices without fear and with a minimum of error. And we love you, too."

Fair enough? Or should we send all kids to the same [secular|religious] brainwashing camp, regardless of their parents' freedom of choice in the children's upbringing?

Nominated.

[Tricky]

I think that's the atheist position in a nutshell, Michael.No, I don't think that, since practically every atheist here will tell you they disbelieve in all gods. Mick (who is probably Irish, but may or not be named Michael) seems to think we pick on the bible. I can see why he might think that, but really it is only because we mostly see Christian theists here.

[MickinEngland]

Um, you can't use the text in question when trying to verify the veracity of said text. There needs to be another source.

How about this one -
[Koran 2.253] "We have made some of these apostles to excel the others, among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by many degrees of rank; and We gave clear miracles to Isa[Jesus] son of Marium [Mary], and strengthened him with the holy spirit. And if Allah had pleased, those after them would not have fought one with another after clear arguments had come to them, but they disagreed; so there were some of them who believed and others who denied; and if Allah had pleased they would not have fought one with another, but Allah brings about what He intends"

[MickinEngland]

I've led a good and upright life and I have little to be ashamed of. If I meet Jesus and he tells me I have sinned because I was misled by the lack of evidence for his divinity, and because he and Dad did a p**s-poor job of delivering their message, then I'll not only look him in the eye, I'll spit in his eye.
Sic semper tyrannis.


Which part of this spoken by Jesus makes you want to spit in his eye? -

"Love God and your neighbour, this is the whole law,
Love one another, love your enemies,
bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you,
greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends,
Hungry and you fed me,
Thirsty and you gave me drink,
A stranger and you took me in,
Naked and you clothed me,
ill and you tended me,
In prison and you visited me.
When you did this to others,
you did it to me.
You're my friends if you follow me, I don't call you servants, I call you friends.
In my fathers kingdom are many mansions,I'm going on ahead to get them ready for you,then come back to take you there with me"

[volatile]

No, I don't think that, since practically every atheist here will tell you they disbelieve in all gods. Mick (who is probably Irish, but may or not be named Michael) seems to think we pick on the bible. I can see why he might think that, but really it is only because we mostly see Christian theists here.

Well, his intention and mine in using that phraseology were clearly different - he's saying "why single out the bible [for criticism]", whereas atheists fill those parentheses with "for belief".

[brodski]

Which part of this spoken by Jesus makes you want to spit in his eye? -

"Love God and your neighbour, this is the whole law,
Love one another, love your enemies,
bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you,
greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends,
Hungry and you fed me,
Thirsty and you gave me drink,
A stranger and you took me in,
Naked and you clothed me,
ill and you tended me,
In prison and you visited me.
When you did this to others,
you did it to me.
You're my friends if you follow me, I don't call you servants, I call you friends.
In my fathers kingdom are many mansions,I'm going on ahead to get them ready for you,then come back to take you there with me"


That's like using Star Trek fan fiction to prove that Captin Kirk is (will be) real...

[qayak]

Ah, so can we look forward to Hinn claiming the million-buck prize soon?

No, and Jesus wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell either. Benny is just a better shyster.

[thaiboxerken]

"Dad, is there a god?"

"No."

That's a bit more honest.

[qayak]

How about this one -
[Koran 2.253] "We have made some of these apostles to excel the others, among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by many degrees of rank; and We gave clear miracles to Isa[Jesus] son of Marium [Mary], and strengthened him with the holy spirit. And if Allah had pleased, those after them would not have fought one with another after clear arguments had come to them, but they disagreed; so there were some of them who believed and others who denied; and if Allah had pleased they would not have fought one with another, but Allah brings about what He intends"

This is Bin Laden's belief. The jews were god's chosen people but they were evil and corrupt so they fell out of favour, to be replaced by the christians. The christians became evil and corrupt so they too fell out of favour with god and were replaced by the muslims.

Bin Laden's stated mission on earth is to make sure muslims do not fall out of favour and he will kill you, me and everyone else to prevent it. Of course, the Vatican did it for years too.

[Soapy Sam]

Why do I think "MickinEngland" is De_bunk, taking the seasonal piss?

[MickinEngland]

Bin Laden's stated mission on earth is to make sure muslims do not fall out of favour and he will kill you, me and everyone else to prevent it. Of course, the Vatican did it for years too.


Yes, but nowadays catholics are basically alright but they waste far too much time praying to Jesus's mum and to 'saints' even though the bible says don't talk to the dead.
And their churches and homes are so full of cheap holy bric-abrac that they look like fancy goods novelty warehouses.. ;)
Hey, poor Fredo in the Godfather went out fishing in a boat, unaware that the guy with him was a hitman. He even tried praying to Mary for a catch -
http://www.thegodfathertrilogy.com/gf2/ram/hailmary.ram

[thaiboxerken]

So you make fun of the catholic mythology but probably won't like it if people make fun of yours.

[Foster Zygote]

a tad circular, isn't it?

I need to sit down before I spew.

[Spindrift]

How about this one -
[Koran 2.253] <SNIP>Irrelevant Koran quote</SNIP>


The Koran was written when? 7th/8th Century at the earliest?

Not exactly a contemporary account. Repeating a fable doesn't make it true.

Quoting "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" does nothing to prove the existence of King Arthur.

[This Guy]

How about this one -
[Koran 2.253] "We have made some of these apostles to excel the others, among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by many degrees of rank; and We gave clear miracles to Isa[Jesus] son of Marium [Mary], and strengthened him with the holy spirit. And if Allah had pleased, those after them would not have fought one with another after clear arguments had come to them, but they disagreed; so there were some of them who believed and others who denied; and if Allah had pleased they would not have fought one with another, but Allah brings about what He intends"

If you consider the Koran as a valid source of information on the workings of God, and considering that it was written so much more recently, why are you a follower of Christ?

Or could it be that you only believe those parts that back up your perceived truths?

[MickinEngland]

If you consider the Koran as a valid source of information on the workings of God, and considering that it was written so much more recently, why are you a follower of Christ?
Or could it be that you only believe those parts that back up your perceived truths?

The book of Mormon is even more recent than the Koran but that doesn't mean we should follow it purely for chronological reasons.. :)
The BoM is a crock, just like the Koran..
The only good thing about the Koran is that despite its anti-Jewish/anti-Christian propaganda, even it dare not try to pretend a miracle-man called Jesus never existed.. :)

[MickinEngland]

So you make fun of the catholic mythology but probably won't like it if people make fun of yours.


Be my guest and take your best shots.. ;)
I'm kewl just like our Main Man -
Jesus said:-"Whoever speaks a word against me shall be forgiven"(Luke 12:10)
Hey look what so-called christians have said to me but I just laugh them off.. ;)

Steve H - "Micks a narrow-minded unchristian unqualified know-nothing silly little man and work-shy racist layabout"
Cymba - "Micks an unchristian aggressive liar showing no fruits of the spirit"
Zeke - "Micks wrong wrong wrong and denies Gods word"
Christian Trucker Pat - "Micks proud,arrogant,self-glorifying, uncharitable,offensive,lacking understanding and talking drivel"
Linda -"Mick's a silly little Brit"
Gloryboundd - "Mick's a senile liar and fool"
Elbown - "Mick you put me off Christianity and i'm a Christian"
SheriNuwine - "Mick you come across as a pervert,do you like cheeky little minxes who play with dollies?"
Sunami - "Mick...the lazy workshy parasite that you are"
Reverend Eric Potts - "You disgust me Mick"

[Cosmo]

They're "so-called christians" because they don't agree with you? That's intellectual dishonesty at its finest, Mick. Nothing to be proud of.

[This Guy]

If you consider the Koran as a valid source of information on the workings of God, and considering that it was written so much more recently, why are you a follower of Christ?

Or could it be that you only believe those parts that back up your perceived truths?

The book of Mormon is even more recent than the Koran but that doesn't mean we should follow it purely for chronological reasons.. :)
The BoM is a crock, just like the Koran..
The only good thing about the Koran is that despite its anti-Jewish/anti-Christian propaganda, even it dare not try to pretend a miracle-man called Jesus never existed.. :)

I'll take that as a yes. :)

[MickinEngland]

They're "so-called christians" because they don't agree with you? .

Nah, they're just pains in the ass whether they agree with me or not :)
Here's what Jesus says about their kind - "Not all who call me "Lord,Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven. Then I'll tell them plainly, I never knew you, get away from me" (Matt 7:21-23)

On the other hand there are plenty of warm decent people around like these below, so just make up your mind which group you'd rather spend eternity with.. ;)
ChildofLight - "So good to read your responses Mick, some are quite witty and made LOL"
Happysandyh - "welcome Mick, welcome welcome!"
HenryS - "You are brilliant Mick in finding appropriate phrases. Another one of your superb emails to store"
Firebrand - "Amen and welcome Mick"
Coconut - "Whew! Thanks for sharing Mick"
Sarah4Jesus - "Listen to Mick in Plymouth, he is a great teacher"
Cathie - "Very wise advice Mick, thanks"
Kierri - "That was one of the best explanations I've ever heard! Yay for Mick in Plymouth"
Haimehenmmli - "I LOVE IT MATE!!! I'm going to put it into my files, with some of my other favorites, from you"
Evachrst3 - "Right on, Mick, I couldn't agree more.Thank you for defending the faith so eloquently".
Devilmademedoit2 - "I love this! Thanks, Mick!"
SweetSummer96 - "Wow. That's a cool story Mick."
Vespasian052 - "Wow! Mick,what an awesome tale.."
Beekpr9 - "Amen to all you have said, Mick!"
Saipan1777 - "Spot on Mick bravo"
Duke Tinn - "Thanks again Mick. Great Stuff"
Apple Pie - "Really good to see you, Mick. Come on over to 4church, we could do with your input and your humour"
Tahella - "Welcome Mick!"
Ainglkiss - "Mick what a wonderful story. You write so well. Keep up the great work"
BlessedOne - "Glad to have you here Mick! Jesus is the way!"
MonkGirl - "Wow, thank you Mick! That is really comforting...and all I really needed to hear!"
WOFman - "Welcome Mick!"
JeffC - "HELL YEAH! PREACH IT BROTHER, THE REALITY WAY! (LUV YUR STYLE....)
Nottonguetied - "I loved those stories from Mick"
Honeybearx - "This was very good reading thank you Mick"
Megan - "Mick, I just wanted to tell you that I loved this story, it was very touching"
Benjoman - "Your one of the only ones from the singles board that I still love Mick"
Allisoneness -"You are the one true Christian on here, keep up the good work and praise the Lord"
Sherry Anne - "Mick i love your posts"
Antipas - "Brilliant yet again Mick"
Easynote - "ROFL Mick you are pure class, another of your timeless classics!"
Kermit - "I love Mick. He is so, how shall I say it, RIGHT ON THE MONEY AND FUNNY, TOO"

[Spindrift]

You keep track of the things people say about you?

Rather full of yourself, aren't you?

[Tricky]

Yes, but nowadays catholics are basically alright but they waste far too much time praying to Jesus's mum and to 'saints' even though the bible says don't talk to the dead.
And their churches and homes are so full of cheap holy bric-abrac that they look like fancy goods novelty warehouses.. ;)
Hey, poor Fredo in the Godfather went out fishing in a boat, unaware that the guy with him was a hitman. He even tried praying to Mary for a catch -
http://www.thegodfathertrilogy.com/gf2/ram/hailmary.ram
Ah. Irish Protestant, I'm guessing. Not surprising considering your forum name. Shall we bring up some of the ugly incidents in your religion's recent history?

[Raphael]

The BoM is a crock, just like the Koran..


And how, exactly, is the Bible not a crock by comparison?

[MickinEngland]

Ah. Irish Protestant, I'm guessing. Not surprising considering your forum name. Shall we bring up some of the ugly incidents in your religion's recent history?


Nah I've never belonged to any Organised Religion,I don't need them to do my thinking for me... ;)
I'm with the Christian Waymarkers UK, it's just a fancy name for a loose collection of a dozen or so non-denominational people scattered around Britain.
We meet up occasionally but keep in touch mostly by e-mails or phone and letters.
Some of us work, some don't, some street-preach, some run house groups, some attend church, some don't..
I'm one of their "scribes", writing short articles etc which are turned into leaflets for handing out to bewildered passersby in city centres..
I also do internet evangelising, trying to let people see christianity isn't as fuddy-duddy and boring as they might think.
I was an administrator and moderator of an internet forum once, but nowadays I just freelance around the net at random for fun..
Just you stick with your uncle Mick.. ;)
"Set up waymarks...set your heart toward the highway" -(Jeremiah 31:21)

[volatile]

I'm one of their "scribes", writing short articles etc which are turned into leaflets for handing out to bewildered passersby in city centres..


I thought you sounded familiar... I think I've recycled your leaflets before, Michael.

Could you start telling us how great God is now? Quit with the Bible quotes and circular logic and get with the proletysing? I think I, for one, am ready to be convinced...

[MickinEngland]

And how, exactly, is the Bible not a crock by comparison?

Well, the Koran says its okay to kill anybody if you think you've got a good cause, and that its okay to beat up your wife to keep her in her place, and that you must kill non-muslims the first chance you get etc etc

And the Book of Mormon says the black race is cursed etc..

So I'll stick with christianity if you don't mind.. ;)

[Tricky]

Well, the Koran says its okay to kill anybody if you think you've got a good cause, The bible says that too, or at least, that's what God does in the OT.

And the Book of Mormon says the black race is cursed etc......and Mormons are Christians. Careful who you start badmouthing here, Mick.

[MickinEngland]

[quote=mattlodder;2206890] Could you start telling us how great God is now? [quote]

You don't need me to tell you,Jesus already told us.. :)
He said nobody has seen God or been to heaven except him, and it blew his socks off so much that he couldn't stop telling people about it.. :)

[volatile]

Well, the Koran says its okay to kill anybody if you think you've got a good cause, and that its okay to beat up your wife to keep her in her place, and that you must kill non-muslims the first chance you get etc etc

And the Book of Mormon says the black race is cursed etc..

So I'll stick with christianity if you don't mind.. ;)

Oh! Where to start with this one?

How about we start with:

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=+Deuteronomy+25%3A11-12) NASB If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.

[MickinEngland]

The bible says that too, or at least, that's what God does in the OT.


Ah, but Jesus overuled the harshness of the OT.. ;)
He said -"It was said 'eye for eye,tooth for tooth' but I say turn the other cheek" (Matt 5:38/39)
And people gladly joined his fan club -
"Through Jesus we are saved,and not through Moses" (Acts 13:39)
"The covenant of Jesus is superior to the old one" (Heb 8:6-13)
"Jesus is worthy of more honour than Moses" (Heb 3:3)
"We serve in the new way of the spirit,not in the old way of the written code" (Rom 7:6)

[Raphael]

Well, the Koran says its okay to kill anybody if you think you've got a good cause, and that its okay to beat up your wife to keep her in her place, and that you must kill non-muslims the first chance you get etc etc

And the Book of Mormon says the black race is cursed etc..

So I'll stick with christianity if you don't mind.. ;)

Your assessment of the moral validity of Islam verses Chrisitanity is irrelevant as an element determining the accuracy of events portayed in the Bible and Koran.

Again, why is the Bible not a "crock" whereas the Koran is?

[Tricky]

Ah, but Jesus overuled the harshness of the OT.. ;)
He said -"It was said 'eye for eye,tooth for tooth' but I say turn the other cheek" (Matt 5:38/39)
And people gladly joined his fan club -
"Through Jesus we are saved,and not through Moses" (Acts 13:39)
"The covenant of Jesus is superior to the old one" (Heb 8:6-13)
"Jesus is worthy of more honour than Moses" (Heb 3:3)
"We serve in the new way of the spirit,not in the old way of the written code" (Rom 7:6)

Then we can safely ignore the Old Testament? Done!

[volatile]

I knew you'd say that.

So, let's go with:

Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

Romans 1:31 - 32 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Matthew 5:29 - 30 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


See, I can copy and paste random bits of Scripture too. Do you have any powers of analyses or logic, or is blunt citation your only recourse?

[Raphael]

Then we can safely ignore the Old Testament? Done!


Hurray! Half way there!:rolleyes:

[MickinEngland]

See, I can copy and paste random bits of Scripture too?


Yes, but yours are totally out of supporting context and are therefore blank rounds, whereas mine are full-metal-jacketed.. ;)

[MickinEngland]

Originally Posted by Tricky http://forums.randi.org/helloworld/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2206930#post2206930)
Then we can safely ignore the Old Testament? Done!

Hurray! Half way there!:rolleyes:
Hurray! Half way there!:rolleyes:



Well done, keep it up and you'll soon be next Archbishop of Canterbury.. ;)

[thaiboxerken]

Ah, but Jesus overuled the harshness of the OT..

So your god changed his mind, thus showing that your god re-evaluated his rules and decided they were too harsh. This shows that even your bible doesn't support belief in a perfect god.

As far as Jesus goes, he was racist.

[MickinEngland]

As far as Jesus goes, he was racist.



Huh? Does this sound racist to you? -
Jesus said "Go into all the world and preach the gospel" (Mark 16:15)

[thaiboxerken]

No, but calling people of certain races "dogs" is racist.

[volatile]

Yes, but yours are totally out of supporting context and are therefore blank rounds, whereas mine are full-metal-jacketed.. ;)

Why are mine out of context and yours aren't? You saying that Romans 1 (all of the damn chapter!) isn't about unbelievers being worthy of death? Why is the Qu'ran (which, I imagine, you've never read) held up for criticism but your precious NT isn't?


Let's have some more "blank rounds", shall we? Jesus the Rapist and Child Murderer in Revelation's a good one.

Revelation 2:22 - 23 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

[volatile]

;2207013][/B]Huh? Does this sound racist to you? -
Jesus said "Go into all the world and preach the gospel" (Mark 16:15)


Ooh! Pick me! Pick me! I know!

The verse you're looking for, is, for example:

Matthew 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.


The context of Matthew 15, as I'm sure you know, is Jesus slagging off the Pharisees, specifically.

[MickinEngland]

Let's have some more "blank rounds", shall we? Jesus the Rapist and Child Murderer in Revelation's a good one.
Revelation 2:22 - 23 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.



Revelation CANNOT be read literally, we have to look at the analogy and metaphor behind it, and even then nobody's sure what its all about.. :)
For example the Hore of Babylon isn't an actual woman, its simply a metaphor for the great bewitching influence of the corrupt world in general, a sort of hideous bride of frankenstein..

[Spindrift]

Revelation CANNOT be read literally, we have to look at the analogy and metaphor behind it, and even then nobody's sure what its all about.. :)
For example the Hore of Babylon isn't an actual woman, its simply a metaphor for the great bewitching influence of the corrupt world in general, a sort of hideous bride of frankenstein..

The 2 Rules of Bible Reading:

1) If the actual text itself makes believers uncomfortable then it's a metaphor and it can mean whatever can be made of it that reinforces belief.

2) If you like what it says, then it must be taken literally and there is no room for interpretation.

[volatile]

Revelation CANNOT be read literally, we have to look at the analogy and metaphor behind it, and even then nobody's sure what its all about.. :)
For example the Hore of Babylon isn't an actual woman, its simply a metaphor for the great bewitching influence of the corrupt world in general, a sort of hideous bride of frankenstein..


Right! So the bits of the bible that support your bonkers theology are literal, but the bits that don't (and, I'm just flicking though Rev. now and, goodness it's horrendous!) are "metaphor"? What about the passages from Peter, Matthew and Romans?

Remind me how I'm supposed to work out which bits are which again?

(If anyone else is keeping score, we're down from "The Bible is the inerrant word of God" via "... except the Old Testament" to "...and Revelation". If we keep this up long enough we might get through all of it by New Year...)

[Zygar]

And the Book of Mormon says the black race is cursed etc..

Actually, the BoM doesn't have any references to black people whatsoever. So you haven't given a good reason not to accept it given that you also said:

The only good thing about the Koran is that despite its anti-Jewish/anti-Christian propaganda, even it dare not try to pretend a miracle-man called Jesus never existed.. :)

The BoM also supports the existence of Jesus and even includes him as a character.

So try again.

[Tricky]

Huh? Does this sound racist to you? -
Jesus said "Go into all the world and preach the gospel" (Mark 16:15)

Yeah, but it was not to be taken literally. He just meant "the places we know of", because nobody knew how big the world was. And of course, world travel was extremely rare in those days, so it just meant, "go tell your neighbors", not "go tell all races". He might have not even known there were other races.

See? We can interpret the Bible too!

[volatile]

Ah, but Jesus overuled the harshness of the OT.. ;)




Well, he kinda did:

Romans 6:14 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/rom/6.html#14) Ye are not under the law, but under grace.

But then again, he kinda didn't:

Matthew 5:18-19 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/5.html#18) Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

See: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/otlaw.html

[Zep]

Genesis, Ch1919:30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. The Seduction of Lot
19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:36 [B]Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.Great stuff from the OT, Mick. Think God ordains this?

[Fnord]

"Dad, is there a god?"

"No."

That's a bit more honest.

To re-iterate, if a man speaks without knowing that he lies, should he be blamed for spreading a falsehood? Can he truly repent and be remorseful for repeating something that he believes is the absolute truth? Ask Galileo.

It's kinda like believing in extraterrestrial aliens; to say "They exist" or "They do not exist" are equally profound statements. A thing can only be proven to exist, it can not be proven to not exist. Lack of proof is not proof of lack.

If the Creator is man's creation, then belief in Him shall fail. But if Man is the Creator's creation, then no argument will stand against Him. Either way, it's a pointless argument.

Believe what you will, and leave the others to their folly.

In the meantime, where's the beer and who brought the cards? :D

-Fnord of Dyscordia-

[thaiboxerken]

Telling the kids nonsense like the OP is just wrong. Not because of the belief in a god, but because he'd be teaching the child circular logic, which is a fallacy.

[Ryokan]

But if you dismiss the Bible, you'd also logically have to dismiss
Confucius's 'The Analects', the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita and Upanishads, the Taoist Tao-te-Ching,the Buddhist Tripitaka,the Zoroastrian Zend-Avesta etc etc.
I mean, why single out the bible?


Have you even read any of these books that I assume you dismiss?

Besides, at least two of those books contain no supernatural at all, the Analects and the (original Theravada) Tripitaka. They're philosophical books, not religious.

[Fnord]

Telling the kids nonsense like the OP is just wrong. Not because of the belief in a god, but because he'd be teaching the child circular logic, which is a fallacy.

Are you willing to 'rescue' such a child from his or her parents, taking full responsibility for the child and raise the child as your own while feeding him or her nothing but syllogisms and rules of reason, without ever presenting the child with something to use those tools on?

Aside from the kidnapping angle, it would be like giving the kid an entire woodshop full of tools, but no knotty pine or mahogany wood to work them on.

I say give them the tools, AND the teachings, and let them draw their own conclusions.

-Fnord of Dyscordia-

[thaiboxerken]

Teaching kids fallacious logic as good logic is not giving them tools to draw their own conclusions with. It's simple indoctrination at that point.

[Z]

But if you dismiss the Bible, you'd also logically have to dismiss
Confucius's 'The Analects', the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita and Upanishads, the Taoist Tao-te-Ching,the Buddhist Tripitaka,the Zoroastrian Zend-Avesta etc etc.
I mean, why single out the bible?


And if you believe Bible, you'd also have to believe the Satanic Bible, Qu'ran, the Analects of Confucius, the Bhagabvad-Gita, the Upanishads, the Tao te Ching, the Tripitaka, the Zend-Avesta, etc. etc.

I mean, why single out the Bible?

[Mojo]

Hey look what so-called christians have said to me but I just laugh them off.. Didn't you say it was Satan (http://www.agnosticforums.com/what-agnostic/33-definition-agnostic-just-so-were-clear-4.html#post2620) saying those things to you?

[bobcarp]

How about this one -
[Koran 2.253] "We have made some of these apostles to excel the others, among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by many degrees of rank; and We gave clear miracles to Isa[Jesus] son of Marium [Mary], and strengthened him with the holy spirit. And if Allah had pleased, those after them would not have fought one with another after clear arguments had come to them, but they disagreed; so there were some of them who believed and others who denied; and if Allah had pleased they would not have fought one with another, but Allah brings about what He intends"

OK, you've convinced me. PRAISE ALLAH!!!!

[Dog Boots]

Well, the Koran says its okay to kill anybody if you think you've got a good cause, and that its okay to beat up your wife to keep her in her place, and that you must kill non-muslims the first chance you get etc etc

And the Book of Mormon says the black race is cursed etc..

So I'll stick with christianity if you don't mind.. ;)

That was possibly the most inept answer I've ever seen to this or any other question posed on this forum. "The Bible is closer to our current moral zeitgeist than the other given alternatives, therefore it is not crock!". I'm confused why so many have even bothered giving detailed answers to this one.

On another note, those comments about you that you posted from other net users, negative and positive,....there are only three possibilities, all of which give me the jibblies:

1. You've kept a record of these
2. you spent an unhealthy amount of time composing those posts
or
3. You made them up

[Fnord]

Teaching kids fallacious logic as good logic is not giving them tools to draw their own conclusions with. It's simple indoctrination at that point.

If you want to teach fallacious logic to children, go right ahead. I'd rather give mine the best and sharpest tools and turn them loose on a fallacious world, than cripple them from the start.

One son is an atheist (college prof), one an agnostic (furniture maker), and one a religionist (fashion artist). This is within statistical parameters.

Even though they are adults, I still insist that they defend their belief systems in a logical and reasoned manner without reference to other belief systems. This way, each of their belief systems will or will not stand on its own. I have not told them what to believe, only that they had better know exactly what it is that they do believe.

-Fnord of Dyscordia-

[thaiboxerken]

That's find, Fnord. However, if you were the type that taught your kids "only faith matters" then you wouldn't be giving them tools to think logically with. If you did like the OP did and taught the kid to use fallacious reasoning, you'd be robbing them of logical facility.

Oh, and religious people cannot defend their belief systems with logic and reason.

[Loss Leader]

Ah, but Jesus overuled the harshness of the OT.. ;)
He said -"It was said 'eye for eye,tooth for tooth' but I say turn the other cheek" (Matt 5:38/39)
And people gladly joined his fan club -
"Through Jesus we are saved,and not through Moses" (Acts 13:39)
"The covenant of Jesus is superior to the old one" (Heb 8:6-13)
"Jesus is worthy of more honour than Moses" (Heb 3:3)
"We serve in the new way of the spirit,not in the old way of the written code" (Rom 7:6)


Imagine how happy I am as a Jew to hear that there was some sort of problem with the Torah that had to be fixed.

I guess I'd be so happy that I'd convert right away to Christianity.

Hold on a second ... the vast majority of Jews didn't convert to anything at all. Christian converts were found almost entirely among the pagans.

This always confused me about Christianity. Your prophet was supposedly sent to save the Jews but the Jews - the people arguably in the best position to judge his true merit - remained unswayed. Christians inherited another religion's false prophet. That's just sad.

[Fnord]

That's find, Fnord. However, if you were the type that taught your kids "only faith matters" then you wouldn't be giving them tools to think logically with. If you did like the OP did and taught the kid to use fallacious reasoning, you'd be robbing them of logical facility.

Oh, and religious people cannot defend their belief systems with logic and reason.

Those subjunctives always mess me up -- why waste time on "what if's"?

I'm trying to dispose of religious views that I can not back up with logic and reason. I hated being a religionist. I'd rather be the guy that the neighbors can rely upon for a hot meal, a cold beer, and a fair turn at the remote control.

-Fnord of Dyscordia-

[Tricky]

Imagine how happy I am as a Jew to hear that there was some sort of problem with the Torah that had to be fixed. LOL. I'm guessing (I've not read the Torah) that it's the same problem as with every religious text: evidence.

Hold on a second ... the vast majority of Jews didn't convert to anything at all. Christian converts were found almost entirely among the pagans.

This always confused me about Christianity. Your prophet was supposedly sent to save the Jews but the Jews - the people arguably in the best position to judge his true merit - remained unswayed. Christians inherited another religion's false prophet. That's just sad.
I hadn't considered this, but if it is true, it does shed a different light on things. Still, if you ask Christians, most will say that he was there to save everybody, not just the Jews. Some will even say that Jews don't nead to be saved because they already have their covenant with God.

It is probably true that numerically, most converts to Christianity were pagans (during the reign of Constantine), but the first Christians were most probably Jews, wouldn't you suppose?

Do Jews consider Jesus a false prophet, or just a non-prophet? I thought their position was that he was a wise man, but was not, and never claimed to be the Messiah. That role was thrust on him by others after he was dead.

But again, I'm much more familiar with Christianity than Judaism, so I am willing to be corrected.

[Loss Leader]

Do Jews consider Jesus a false prophet, or just a non-prophet? I thought their position was that he was a wise man, but was not, and never claimed to be the Messiah. That role was thrust on him by others after he was dead.


The Jews I know don't consider Jesus at all. We have no opinion of him. His life, death, teachings and whatever else have no impact whatsoever on the Jewish religion.

Now, if pressed by christians, I'm sure most Jews would say that Jesus must have been very wise and kind or something. But those people (and myself when I've said it), don't mean it. I did it out of pure self-preservation and I'm sure that most other Jews in that situation had that as their only motivation as well.

[Tricky]

The Jews I know don't consider Jesus at all. We have no opinion of him. His life, death, teachings and whatever else have no impact whatsoever on the Jewish religion.
From the position that Jesus has not impact on the holy books of Judaism, I can see this, but from the standpoint that all Jews must acknowledge the importance of Jesus and Mohammud (whether or not the accounts are true) in daily life, it would seem almost impossible for them to have no opinion of them. I mean, even as an atheist, I have opinions of the various gods and prophets as they are described by others.

[Loss Leader]

From the position that Jesus has not impact on the holy books of Judaism, I can see this, but from the standpoint that all Jews must acknowledge the importance of Jesus and Mohammud (whether or not the accounts are true) in daily life, it would seem almost impossible for them to have no opinion of them. I mean, even as an atheist, I have opinions of the various gods and prophets as they are described by others.

I'm sorry if you didn't like my answer. I'm sure every Jew on earth has some opinion of christians, christianity, muslims and Islam. I'm not sure many Jews know or even care what the central figures of those religions are supposed to have said or done. I've never really understood even the basic tennets of christianity and I certainly could not care less. Even so, I have opinions about christians and christianity's effects on my life and on my society.

[Tricky]

I'm sorry if you didn't like my answer. I'm sure every Jew on earth has some opinion of christians, christianity, muslims and Islam. I'm not sure many Jews know or even care what the central figures of those religions are supposed to have said or done. I've never really understood even the basic tennets of christianity and I certainly could not care less. Even so, I have opinions about christians and christianity's effects on my life and on my society.
Your answer was fine, I just wanted to discuss it some more. Since religion is discussed in this forum, I would have assumed that you cared what other religions had to say, but it is certainly not required. Your knowledge of Judaism is a good bit less common than knowledge of Christianity here, so I welcome your input, even if you don't wish to get into comparitive religion.

Do Jews think that God is "loving"? Does He love everybody?

[Loss Leader]

Your answer was fine, I just wanted to discuss it some more. Since religion is discussed in this forum, I would have assumed that you cared what other religions had to say, but it is certainly not required. Your knowledge of Judaism is a good bit less common than knowledge of Christianity here, so I welcome your input, even if you don't wish to get into comparitive religion.

Do Jews think that God is "loving"? Does He love everybody?

What I'm about to say may sound sarcastic but I mean to answer your question in all seriousness. The best explanation I ever heard of the Jewish view of God is in the movie The Frisco Kid. Gene Wilder and Harrison Ford have been captured by the Indians. They haven't had rain in a while and they ask Gene Wilder's characte, a Rabbi, if his God could make it rain. Wilder respons no and they have the following exchange:

Chief Gray Cloud: [in reference to Avram's god] What does he do?
Avram: He... He can do anything!
Chief Gray Cloud: Then why can't he make rain?
Avram: Because he doesn't make rain. He gives us strength when we're suffering. He gives us compassion when all that we feel is hatred. He gives us courage when we're searching around blindly like little mice in the darkness... but He does not make rain!
[Thunder and lightning begin, followed by a downpour]
Avram: Of course... sometimes, just like that, he'll change His mind.

In answer to your question as to whether the Jewish conception of God is "loving," I am constrained to answer that God is God. I'm aware that this may not be a satisfactory response.

[Tricky]

What I'm about to say may sound sarcastic but I mean to answer your question in all seriousness. The best explanation I ever heard of the Jewish view of God is in the movie The Frisco Kid. Gene Wilder and Harrison Ford have been captured by the Indians. They haven't had rain in a while and they ask Gene Wilder's characte, a Rabbi, if his God could make it rain. Wilder respons no and they have the following exchange:

Chief Gray Cloud: [in reference to Avram's god] What does he do?
Avram: He... He can do anything!
Chief Gray Cloud: Then why can't he make rain?
Avram: Because he doesn't make rain. He gives us strength when we're suffering. He gives us compassion when all that we feel is hatred. He gives us courage when we're searching around blindly like little mice in the darkness... but He does not make rain!
[Thunder and lightning begin, followed by a downpour]
Avram: Of course... sometimes, just like that, he'll change His mind.

In answer to your question as to whether the Jewish conception of God is "loving," I am constrained to answer that God is God. I'm aware that this may not be a satisfactory response.
If Avram's description is a good one, the God of Abraham gives strength, compassion and courage. All of those things seem pretty unambiguously good, especially compassion (because strength and courage could arguably be misdirected).

So I guess my question would be that if God is God (with no description of Him or his qualities), why do you worship Him?

[Loss Leader]

So I guess my question would be that if God is God (with no description of Him or his qualities), why do you worship Him?

From a Jewish perspective, this question makes no sense. It would be like asking "Why does a tree?" or "Why pickle television luminosity?" Jews worship God because he is God. They worship God in the way they do because they were commanded to.

[Tricky]

From a Jewish perspective, this question makes no sense. It would be like asking "Why does a tree?" or "Why pickle television luminosity?" Jews worship God because he is God. They worship God in the way they do because they were commanded to.
How about from your perspective? You don't strike me as the kind of person who obeys orders mindlessly or subscribes to such circular reasoning as "because God is God".

The picture you paint of the Jewish faith is not a flattering one. It presents Judaism as nothing more than a tradition, not a thoughtful view of the way the universe works. I truly hope that this is not an accurate representation of how most Jews think.

[Loss Leader]

How about from your perspective? You don't strike me as the kind of person who obeys orders mindlessly or subscribes to such circular reasoning as "because God is God".

Yeah, well I don't believe in God. I do, however, believe in Jews.

The picture you paint of the Jewish faith is not a flattering one. It presents Judaism as nothing more than a tradition, not a thoughtful view of the way the universe works. I truly hope that this is not an accurate representation of how most Jews think.

I don't agree with you as regards how flattering a portrait of Judaism I've painted. First of all, the vast majority of faithful of all religions worship out of habbit and tradition. Most spend very little time thinking about the deeper questions of their faith. The same is true of Jews. I am sure there are some who spend their entire lives on the question of God's lovingness, his power, the level at which he intervenes, the nature of angels, etc. It just doesn't make up a real part of the life of the average Jew - even the average observant Jew.

Second, there are a lot worse reasons to worship God than I gave. I think the fear of punishment - either in this life or the next - is a disgusting reason to have faith. I would not want to believe in a God, as it has been said, who would punnish me for not believing in him. There are also religions that suffer greatly from inferiority complexes and send people out to proselytize and witness and generally make themselves annoying. We do not suffer from that affliction.

Calling Judaism a tradition as much or more than a religion is not an insult to me or, I expect, to most Jews. The dietary laws, holy days and even the language bind us into one people. It's one of the reasons that we are alone among the religions of the world that can trace our roots right back to Ur and Sumaria.

[Elizabeth I]

Imagine how happy I am as a Jew to hear that there was some sort of problem with the Torah that had to be fixed.

I guess I'd be so happy that I'd convert right away to Christianity.

Hold on a second ... the vast majority of Jews didn't convert to anything at all. Christian converts were found almost entirely among the pagans.

This always confused me about Christianity. Your prophet was supposedly sent to save the Jews but the Jews - the people arguably in the best position to judge his true merit - remained unswayed. Christians inherited another religion's false prophet. That's just sad.
Somebody I know said that when challenged by Christians to "find Jesus," he always answered, "I'm covered under a prior agreement with his father."