Reality check

[MickinEngland]

When trying to understand 'reality' we just haven't a clue because our puny 5 senses just aren't up to the job. For example our eyes/brain tells us this pic is moving, but is it?

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/rotsnake.jpg

The moral? - if we can't even tell if the movement in a tuppeny-ha'penny pic is real or an illusion, how can we be so arrogant as to think we can properly understand the reality of life and the universe?

We need a third party to come in and tell us -
Jesus said - "I'll tell you things hidden since the creation of the world.... I am not of this world" - (Matt 13:35, John 8:23)
-------------------------------------------------

[volatile]

When trying to understand 'reality' we just haven't a clue because our puny 5 senses just aren't up to the job. For example our eyes/brain tells us this pic is moving, but is it?

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/rotsnake.jpg

The moral? - if we can't even tell if the movement in a tuppeny-ha'penny pic is real or an illusion, how can we be so arrogant as to think we can properly understand the reality of life and the universe?

We need a third party to come in and tell us -
Jesus said - "I'll tell you things hidden since the creation of the world.... I am not of this world" - (Matt 13:35, John 8:23)
-------------------------------------------------


We know the movement isn't real, and the process which causes our eyes to perceive movement where there is none is quite well understood, as far as I'm aware. Well understood because, when rational people see something they don't understand, they look for answers.

When irrational people, such as yourself, see things you don't understand, you actually stop looking for answers, as your very incomprehension is enough to invoke your faith reflex...

"I don't get it. So God did it". We call that "argument from personal incredulity" around these parts!

[qayak]

The moral? - if we can't even tell if the movement in a tuppeny-ha'penny pic is real or an illusion, how can we be so arrogant as to think we can properly understand the reality of life and the universe?

Because science demonstrated long ago that our senses could be fooled so they found new tools that went beyond those senses to capture the reality of the universe.

Only ignorant people believe that we rely on our senses alone.

[thaiboxerken]

A lecture about reality from a christian. That's funny.

Next, he'll post about bumblebees.

[grayman]

I have that as wallpaper. :D

[Cosmo]

Mick, I would advise you to stop starting a new thread every time a thought pops into your head. It's considered spamming, and it will quickly get you banned.

[grayman]

Reality check

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When trying to understand 'reality' we just haven't a clue because our puny 5 senses just aren't up to the job. For example our eyes/brain tells us this pic is moving, but is it?

And you tell us God/the Bible is real when it isn't.

[grayman]

But Cosmo, they aren't new thoughts.

[Cosmo]

But Cosmo, they aren't new thoughts.

A fair point. I've edited my post. :)

[MickinEngland]

A lecture about reality from a christian. That's funny..


Jesus wasn't a pic on a monitor screen, he was solid flesh and blood.. :)
How many eyewitnesse would you like?
He travelled all over Israel for 3 long years in front of the people and the occupying Roman Army, that's a lot of eyewitnesses - "I've spoken openly to the world..I said nothing in secret" (John 18:20)
And "Large crowds from Galilee, the Ten Cities, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him" (Matt 4:25) and saw him curing illnesses, raising the dead and speaking of love and kindness and decency in an easy simple way - "And the common people heard him gladly" (Mark 12 :37)
And he pulled crowds of over 4000 and 5000 at two gigs alone (Matt 15:32, Matt 14:13), boy did he rock!
Right Elvis?
"Uh-huh"

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/elvis1.jpg

[thaiboxerken]

Jesus is a mythical hero patterned after many other mythical heroes that predate christianity, he combines aspects from plenty of other christ figures to become the "uber" christ. The little evidence that implies his existence is questionable and there is NO evidence that such a person actually had superpowers. Now, STFU, christer.

Elvis didn't do no drugs!- Penn Gillette.

[volatile]

Jesus wasn't a pic on a monitor screen, he was solid flesh and blood.. :)
How many eyewitnesse would you like?
He travelled all over Israel for 3 long years in front of the people and the occupying Roman Army, that's a lot of eyewitnesses - "I've spoken openly to the world..I said nothing in secret" (John 18:20)
And "Large crowds from Galilee, the Ten Cities, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him" (Matt 4:25) and saw him curing illnesses, raising the dead and speaking of love and kindness and decency in an easy simple way - "And the common people heard him gladly" (Mark 12 :37)
And he pulled crowds of over 4000 and 5000 at two gigs alone (Matt 15:32, Matt 14:13), boy did he rock!
Right Elvis?
"Uh-huh"




You know both Wendy *and* Michael both saw Peter Pan fly, right? How many more eyewitnesses do you want?

[brodski]

Wait, your argument is that because humans are easily fooled, then Jesus really did have superpowers?

[grayman]

Wait, your argument is that because humans are easily fooled, then Jesus really did have superpowers?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/92464591d0f06b743.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3339)

[Foster Zygote]

Jesus wasn't a pic on a monitor screen, he was solid flesh and blood.. :)
How many eyewitnesse would you like?
He travelled all over Israel for 3 long years in front of the people and the occupying Roman Army, that's a lot of eyewitnesses - "I've spoken openly to the world..I said nothing in secret" (John 18:20)
And "Large crowds from Galilee, the Ten Cities, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him" (Matt 4:25) and saw him curing illnesses, raising the dead and speaking of love and kindness and decency in an easy simple way - "And the common people heard him gladly" (Mark 12 :37)
And he pulled crowds of over 4000 and 5000 at two gigs alone (Matt 15:32, Matt 14:13), boy did he rock!
Right Elvis?
"Uh-huh"

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/elvis1.jpg

It's funny you mention Elvis. There are eyewitness accounts from people claiming to have seen Elvis alive and well years after he died.

[dglas]

Here's a reality check for you, Mick.

You and your nonsense are the past.
It's over. We aren't going back. Ever.
Have a nice day.

[MickinEngland]

The little evidence that implies his existence is questionable..


Think it out mate..
When christianity began snowballing in popularity after Jesus's execution, the snooty Jewish prists and the posturing Romans said - "Oops better not let on it was us who killed him, quick shred all the documents implicating us or we'll have a Jesusgate scandal on our hands..
Let's airbrush him out of history and start persecuting christians, and people will soon quickly forget about him"..
Nevertheless 27 books did slip through the net and get published as the New Testament.. ;)

[thaiboxerken]

Think it out mate..

That's a pretty pathetic excuse for the lack of evidence. The Romans weren't the only nation that recorded history in those regions at that time.

[qayak]

God woke, but the nightmare
Did not recede. Word by word
The tower of speech grew,
He looked at it from the air
He reclined on. One word more and
It would be on level with him; vocabulary
Would have triumphed. . .. He leaned
Over and looked at the dictionary
They used. There was the blank still
By his name. . .

[MickinEngland]

That's a pretty pathetic excuse for the lack of evidence. The Romans weren't the only nation that recorded history in those regions at that time.


The Romans ruled most of Europe, and if you gave them the slightest inkling you liked Jesus you'd end up as lion food..

[Tricky]

The Romans ruled most of Europe, and if you gave them the slightest inkling you liked Jesus you'd end up as lion food..
Until the time of Constantine, then it was just the reverse. Does being persecuted make a religion correct?

[MickinEngland]

Until the time of Constantine, then it was just the reverse. Does being persecuted make a religion correct?


This is correct whether anybody's persecuted for it or not -

"Love God and your neighbour, this is the whole law,
Love one another, love your enemies,
bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you,
greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends,
Hungry and you fed me,
Thirsty and you gave me drink,
A stranger and you took me in,
Naked and you clothed me,
ill and you tended me,
In prison and you visited me.
When you did this to others,
you did it to me.
You're my friends if you follow me, I don't call you servants, I call you friends.
In my fathers kingdom are many mansions,I'm going on ahead to get them ready for you,then come back to take you there with me" - Jesus of Nazareth

[thaiboxerken]

The Romans ruled most of Europe, and if you gave them the slightest inkling you liked Jesus you'd end up as lion food..

But other nations had history and documented history at that time.

[qayak]

In my fathers kingdom are many mansions,I'm going on ahead to get them ready for you,then come back to take you there with me" - Jesus of Nazareth


It's taking him a long time to change the bedding, don't you think?

[Zygar]

The Romans ruled most of Europe, and if you gave them the slightest inkling you liked Jesus you'd end up as lion food..

Then the persecuted Mormons must be equally correct.

[Zep]

Genesis, Ch1919:30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. The Seduction of Lot
19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:36 [B]Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.Great stuff from the OT, Mick. Think God ordains this?

[l0rca]

According to nominalist empiricism, you can't exactly understand the world, and the idea of understanding itself is a fallacy. But I'm not going to bother to explain it to someone who uses no logic at all for their arguments.

(What I'd like to see a thread about, however, is new empiricism vs old empiricism. I could learn something about Popper here, I think. I really should read one of his books...)

In other news, people who make conjectures like the point of this thread are a perfect example why logic should be made a high-school course instead of a college one.

EDIT: I'd also like to include that there are more than five senses. I can't believe it's still being taught that there's only five.

[The Don]

Think it out mate..
Nevertheless 27 books did slip through the net and get published as the New Testament.. ;)


Then again 20 books were published in the Aubrey/Maturin series but I don't think that anyone seriously considers that Jack Aubrey was actually a Post Captain (and later Admiral) in the Royal Navy in the 19th Century.

The reason ? A lack of contemporary supporting evidence from unbiased sources. And so it is for Jesus.

[Marquis de Carabas]

We need a third party to come in and tell us -
Jesus said - "I'll tell you things hidden since the creation of the world.... I am not of this world" - (Matt 13:35, John 8:23)
-------------------------------------------------

If we can't even tell if the movement in a tuppeny-ha'penny pic is real or an illusion, how can we be so arrogant as to think we can properly choose the right third party to listen to?

[BracesForImpact]

If we can't even tell if the movement in a tuppeny-ha'penny pic is real or an illusion, how can we be so arrogant as to think we can properly choose the right third party to listen to?

That was my first thought as well. Mick, I'm afraid your argument is rather self-defeating. Your puny senses could not possibly understand any instructions Jesus could ever give you.

[Tormac]

Hi Mick,

I’m mostly a lurker here, but flipping through you’re many posts after my holiday internet break, I thought I might post in one, saying that I think you are spot on in this one.

Human perception can be easily fooled by circumstances. I still see shadows moving in the corner of my eye when I’m alone in the house at 3:00am. This is why it is important to always ask for physical evidence before accepting that something is true.

You’ve made a lot of claims about the nature of God, and reality. Can you produce any physical evidence to promote your claims? (Quoting the bible is not going to get you a lot of traction, any more than quoting Homer reveals the capricious nature of the Gods .)

Since, as your post points out, human perception can be fooled, what evidence can you back up to support your claims?

[MickinEngland]

Your puny senses could not possibly understand any instructions Jesus could ever give you.


Well done, keep it up and you'll make Archbishop of Canterbury.. :)
Jesus tried his best to get his message across to our puny brains by dumbing himself down and using parables etc, but even he admitted we're not capable of taking it all on board -
"You hardly believe me when I tell you earthly things,so how would you believe me if I told you heavenly things?" (John 3:12)

As I've said before, not I nor any christian pretends we know it all.
Atheists however, DO think they know it all.. ;)

[MickinEngland]

Hi Mick,
Human perception can be easily fooled by circumstances. I still see shadows moving in the corner of my eye when I’m alone in the house at 3:00am. This is why it is important to always ask for physical evidence before accepting that something is true.?


Ah, but when differents planes of reality intermittently brush together and inter-react, the "evidence" is usually too fleeting and brief to be pinned down, like the "peripheral images" you saw.
For example a succubus (female demon) once climbed into bed with me but I can't prove it.
And another time a troop of demons pretended to be my family but I can't prove that either..
And I was once psychically attacked by a crop circle entity but I can't prove that either..
But the mere fact we can't prove something to others doesn't mean it didn't happen to us.. :)

Here's the troop of demons incident -
FALSE ARRIVAL by Mick
One Saturday afternoon in the 1970's when i was in my 20's i was home alone while the rest of the family were out shopping in town, and i spent the time up in my room building a plastic model ship.
Around teatime i heard voices in the street outside that sounded like the family returning, then i heard our front gate unlatch, then i heard the key go in the front door, then heard their voices and footsteps come into the hallway.
Then there was dead silence.
I went downstairs to greet them but there was nobody there, i looked in the living room, kitchen, even the garden and garden shed, but nothing, they were nowhere to be seen.
I assumed they must have gone out to do a bit more shopping up the road , and i went back up to carry on with my ship.
After about an hour they came back and i asked my mother if they'd arrived earlier and gone back out again, but she said no, and hadn't a clue what i was talking about.
So i just put the earlier arrival down to a trick of the mind or a "waking dream" or whatever, and felt fascinated and privileged to have experienced it.
A few years later i happened to learn from a paranormal book that the phenomenon is fairly common, and is called "False Arrival", where somebody hears one or more friends or family members come into the house, followed by silence.
But the F.A. that led me to develop a theory on the subject was one featured in a TV prog about the paranormal. The manager of a small engineering firm was working late on his own one night doing the accounts in the old control tower on a disused airfield where his firm was renting some hangars , when he heard footsteps plodding up the stone stairs and stop outside his door.
After a short silence he impatiently called out "Well come on in then!", but nobody did. He went and opened the door but there was nobody there.
Okay here's my theory - we're all born with a "psychic shield" or "force field" or "buffer" around our brains to protect it from - dare i say it - demons and other assorted supernatural phenomena.
But if we're engaged in doing something that requires a lot of mental concentration, like me building that fiddly model ship, and the manager concentrating on his accounts, our "shield" is weakened because we're draining power from it to concentrate on tasks that require a heavy mental workload.
Hence, both of us experienced false arrivals or "visitations" by - who knows? Perhaps a whole troop of demons impersonated my family, i just don't know...
Oh, and here's something else - we hear of students killing themselves after prolonged heavy swotting for exams, so maybe they were concentrating so hard on their studies that mental power was drained from their shield and all sorts of nasties got into their heads...
Maybe thats why the Sabbath is meant as a rest day for us to relax and re-charge our shields?
And maybe prayer is another way to re-charge, by logging onto God and getting a power download?
I also heard of one FA that happened to two people in the street, they left their house with a friend, but halfway down the street the friend realised he'd forgotten something, so he ran back to the house to get it, and his two friends strolled slowly on. Soon they heard his footsteps running up behind them but when they turned round he wasn't there. Shortly after, he came running up for real.
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[Spindrift]

As I've said before, not I nor any christian pretends we know it all.
Atheists however, DO think they know it all.. ;)
[/COLOR][/SIZE]

I love that cop out.

Christian: We don't know it all, but we do know that Jesus was absolutely a god, which is the only thing we need to know, so we don't have to or want to know anything else.

[zizzybaluba]

Atheists however, DO think they know it all.. ;)

I, for one, make no claim that I know 'it all'.
I do claim, however, to be able to tell fact from fiction.

[Spindrift]

Ah, but when differents planes of reality intermittently brush together and inter-react, the "evidence" is usually too fleeting and brief to be pinned down, like the "peripheral images" you saw.
For example a succubus (female demon) once climbed into bed with me but I can't prove it.
And another time a troop of demons pretended to be my family but I can't prove that either..
And I was once psychically attacked by a crop circle entity but I can't prove that either..
But the mere fact we can't prove something to others doesn't mean it didn't happen to us.. :)
<SNIP>SPAM</SNIP>

But it means it's highly unlikely that any of those events occured anywhere but in your mind.

"a crop circle entity" - You were attacked by a board and length of rope?

[thaiboxerken]

Actually, it's the theists that claim to know it all, and their answer to all is "god."

Most atheists I know can admit when we don't know it all. What's really ironic is that when atheists claim that they don't know something, then the theists say "AH HA!! THEREFORE GOD EXISTS!!"

[ceo_esq]

The Romans ruled most of Europe, and if you gave them the slightest inkling you liked Jesus you'd end up as lion food..
Until the time of Constantine, then it was just the reverse.

What makes you think that by legalizing Christianity, Constantine effectively reversed the prior situations of Christians and non-Christians (vis-à-vis lions etc.)? Recall that the Edict of Milan was an edict of religious toleration: "among other things which we saw would be for the good of many, those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred ..."

[Tormac]

Ah, but when differents planes of reality intermittently brush together and inter-react, the "evidence" is usually too fleeting and brief to be pinned down, like the "peripheral images" you saw.
For example a succubus (female demon) once climbed into bed with me but I can't prove it.
And another time a troop of demons pretended to be my family but I can't prove that either..
And I was once psychically attacked by a crop circle entity but I can't prove that either..
But the mere fact we can't prove something to others doesn't mean it didn't happen to us.. :)

. . .
[/SIZE]

Well Mick, this is exactly what I’m getting at. The evidence that I am after is not “fleeting”, but has a material existence in this “plane of reality”.

You’re right that the fact that we can’t “prove” something does not mean that it does not exist. But it seems more likely that things that exist leave bits of themselves behind. I am going to assume that you are not just having me for a laugh with you’re story about being visited by a succubus, or that you have had an experience that could have been a troop of demons impersonating your family.

Reading your story though, I see no reason why you assume that you have demonic entities roaming your house impersonating your family. I sometimes hear foot steps in my house, or see shadowy figures in the corner of my eye. But I don’t assume that I am being haunted by “shadow people”. It is much more likely that I am misinterpreting situations. If I hear a noise in my house late at night, I may check it out, but I assume it is at worst a burglar, and more likely, either an echo of neighbors out late, or one of my cats having fun.

You said that you put it down to a “trick of the mind” or “waking dream”, after you described what happened, but before that you claimed that the occurrence was caused by a troop of demons pretending to be your family. I know it is more exciting to talk about one’s house being haunted but isn’t it more likely that the noises you heard were an echo of neighbor’s talking, or a house creaking as it settles because of changes in temperature?

Its fun to make up theories about how the unexplained works (I've been known to endulge in it at parties after a couple whiskey's myself, depending on the company), but it is a big step between one's theory about why people fall in love, or how angels work, and seriously claiming that one's house is haunted by demons. I'm taking a guess here, that you're endulging more in the party talk sort of thing, but if you seriously think that demons roam from one plane of reality to another like a Micheal Morcock novel, I have to ask why, instead of saying that we can misprecieve things, and experienes are more likely a "trick of the mind".

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Jesus wasn't a pic on a monitor screen, he was solid flesh and blood.. :)
How many eyewitnesse would you like?
He travelled all over Israel for 3 long years in front of the people and the occupying Roman Army, that's a lot of eyewitnesses - "I've spoken openly to the world..I said nothing in secret" (John 18:20)
And "Large crowds from Galilee, the Ten Cities, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him" (Matt 4:25) and saw him curing illnesses, raising the dead and speaking of love and kindness and decency in an easy simple way - "And the common people heard him gladly" (Mark 12 :37)
And he pulled crowds of over 4000 and 5000 at two gigs alone (Matt 15:32, Matt 14:13), boy did he rock!
Right Elvis?
"Uh-huh"

And yet the vast majority who supposedly witnessed all these miraculous things did not believe in him.

Ever wonder why?

[Mojo]

The Romans ruled most of EuropeBut what did they ever do for us?

[Z]

For example a succubus (female demon) once climbed into bed with me but I can't prove it.
And another time a troop of demons pretended to be my family but I can't prove that either..
And I was once psychically attacked by a crop circle entity but I can't prove that either..


Whooop!

Without proof, here, you have nothing.

Believe me - all the encounters I've had faes, dragons, etc., and I don't bring them up because I have no proof.

No proof means it might as well have not happened at all.

[bruto]

I find the initial post interesting but confusing. So, we cannot always believe what we see, unless, of course, we subject it to reason and investigation. Doing that, we have a good chance of determining that things we think we see, such as moving images, gods, monsters, miracles, ghosts and revelations, are illusory, and of understanding why.

Is the original post meant to suggest that there can be no rational explanation for the optical illusion, and that we must then exercise faith to determine that it is not moving? Indeed, it seems our "puny 5 senses" require the use of a brain to prevent us from being deceived. We cannot automatically trust everything we see, just as we cannot automatically trust authority. But while my eyes say the figure is moving, my reason confirms that it is not. Who needs faith for that?

[Ryokan]

But what did they ever do for us?

The aqueduct?

[I less than three logic]

The aqueduct?
Hmph. I've never used it. :)

[Foster Zygote]

As I've said before, not I nor any christian pretends we know it all.
Atheists however, DO think they know it all.. ;)

I love the smell of straw in the morning.

[Foster Zygote]

The aqueduct?

I smell a Python bit coming on.

[Z]

REG:
All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
XERXES:
Brought peace.
REG:
Oh. Peace? Shut up!

[JonnyFive]

Ah, but when differents planes of reality intermittently brush together and inter-react, the "evidence" is usually too fleeting and brief to be pinned down, like the "peripheral images" you saw.
For example a succubus (female demon) once climbed into bed with me but I can't prove it.
And another time a troop of demons pretended to be my family but I can't prove that either..
And I was once psychically attacked by a crop circle entity but I can't prove that either..
But the mere fact we can't prove something to others doesn't mean it didn't happen to us..

Does the fact that you are unable to provide any evidence indicate anything to you?

Could please explain what a "crop circle entity" is? As far as I know and all evidence suggests, crop circles are caused by humans. Do you mean that you were attacked by a person?

[enjoytheview]

Is the original post meant to suggest that there can be no rational explanation for the optical illusion, and that we must then exercise faith to determine that it is not moving? Indeed, it seems our "puny 5 senses" require the use of a brain to prevent us from being deceived. We cannot automatically trust everything we see, just as we cannot automatically trust authority. But while my eyes say the figure is moving, my reason confirms that it is not. Who needs faith for that?

Are you kidding? Faith is the most important tool in these sorts of things. It works the same way as this problem most people would have seen in high school.
A spear fisherman standing on a beach looks down into the water below and sees a fish. The "puny senses" of this fisherman tell him that the fish is a certain distance away, however the fish is closer than it appears. Thankfully, physics tells this fisherman that the refraction of light causes the fish to appear further away than it actually is, and his senses are effectively playing a trick on him God jumps in and corrects the fisherman's mindset and he spears the fish, goes home and eats a freshly caught dinner.

Without God, spear fishermen would go hungry.:)