Derren Brown new TV show.

[Azrael 5]

Is on Channel 4 now in UK! Repeated a couple of times on E4 next few days for those who didn't know it was on.

Then we can all worship at the feet of Derren. ;)

[firecoins]

I really enjoy his stuff. Wish he was on American TV!

[Big Les]

The self-expose/sum-up at the end was great, using video clips of the various suggested words and numbers. I only conciously spotted and remembered the incredibly blatant "influential" myself, waiting for it to crop up later.

The nail up the nose wasn't up to blockhead standards IMO, but still made me wince!

[Azrael 5]

The self-expose/sum-up at the end was great, using video clips of the various suggested words and numbers. I only conciously spotted and remembered the incredibly blatant "influential" myself, waiting for it to crop up later.

The nail up the nose wasn't up to blockhead standards IMO, but still made me wince!

As a "magician" myself I can't decide wether he actually influenced tehse people or not.I tend to think "not" as it's a huge gamble to rely on suggestion alone.But as when I saw him live I've no idea how the newspaper trick works-in whole at least.:boggled:

[firecoins]

As a "magician" myself I can't decide wether he actually influenced tehse people or not.I tend to think "not" as it's a huge gamble to rely on suggestion alone.But as when I saw him live I've no idea how the newspaper trick works-in whole at least.:boggled:
Have you read Pure Effect? I think Brown uses alot of suggestion in his work.

[andyandy]

As a "magician" myself I can't decide wether he actually influenced tehse people or not.I tend to think "not" as it's a huge gamble to rely on suggestion alone.But as when I saw him live I've no idea how the newspaper trick works-in whole at least.:boggled:

i was wondering that myself....not that i'm a proper magician or anything :)

some bits such as the forcing of choosing page 14 and the selection of the piece of paper with "influential" on i would have thought would have worked without the previous subliminal cues -
i'm sure you could do some statistical research to show that in a situation where an entire auditorium of people is waiting on your choice (in the case of the newspaper headline) that you would be self conscious enough to not want to keep people waiting too long, whilst not wishing to choose the first couple of headlines, thus "spoiling" the drama....i also noticed he tapped the paper three times quite loudly before reading the third article - quite a blatant cue to choose it (i watched derren brown previously explaining using similar techniques to direct someone to choosing a particular card....)
Put all this together, I'd expect the third article would be chosen in most occasions regardless of previous subliminal spookiness....

equally in the choosing of the number of pieces to count off - that's just a rather simple magician's trick - as long as you know where the piece is that you want to be chosen is, you can manipulate which pieces you count to ensure they end up with the requied one...

but how to direct someone in the audience to choose p14 over the other 3 possible sides, and then to drop half the torn up page does seem rather a lot to leave to chance....
maybe the back of page 14 was not "attractive" - say an advert or the financial section....but even so it's impressive...

after watching derren brown's The Heist, he does seem to have a remarkable ability to control people's actions

:boxedin:

[andyandy]

this is the "black ball/white ball trick" from the show - the daily mail subliminal hint is 3mins 25 ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KveY44NCNOM

"choose, daily, mail..."

:D

[Azrael 5]

Without revealing secrets-it is obvious after re-watching,page 14 wasn't forced or influenced.Derren read ads from one paper over different pages until girl said stop.She didn't know what page the ads were on.So the "14" suggestion was bluff.

Yes I've read Pure Effect,but suggetsion on a small scale is one thing to do it as Derren cheekily claims in the end of show VT is another!
I think I have it figured out now mostly.The choosing of the actual word on a piece of paper is still foxing me though.

[andyandy]

stupid tags :)

this is the correct link....

[yt]KveY44NCNOM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KveY44NCNOM

[andyandy]

double post

[tkingdoll]

I have it on very good authority that he employs some very mundane trickery that would leave his most rabid NLP-loving fans in tears of disappointment. Oh well, it makes for good TV.

[andyandy]

I have it on very good authority that he employs some very mundane trickery that would leave his most rabid NLP-loving fans in tears of disappointment. Oh well, it makes for good TV.

it's interesting isn't it? it's almost as if we're more impressed with "science" than "magic" now - do a magic trick - and no matter how good it is, it's just a trick - but explain how it wasn't actually a trick at all - that it was mind-control - and it becomes all the more impressive....

derren seems to blur the line really well between magic tricks and non-tricks.....

this youtube clip is of derren using a simple trick "out of this world" to imply (or show how succeptible people are to the suggestion of) supernaturality of image....

KldRmpIDv10

edit.
mod note. i don't ever post in this section so i don't know what precisely constitutes "revealing magic secrets" - if naming tricks does then feel free to edit that bit....

[firecoins]

I have it on very good authority that he employs some very mundane trickery that would leave his most rabid NLP-loving fans in tears of disappointment. Oh well, it makes for good TV.
I am not authority enough. The man is a magician.

[Darat]

I do find it a little bit amusing that some of his fans seem to have forgotten what he says about his tricks http://www.derrenbrown.co.uk/

"He doesn't claim to be a mind-reader, instead he describes his craft as a mixture of magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship."

Once the camera is rolling or he is being interviewed as "Darren Brown the entertainer" he is playing a part. In other words what magicians have always done.

[tkingdoll]

At TAM4, Penn was saying that magicians don't reveal their methods for two reasons. One, to keep them safe, and two, because many of them are so utterly simple, mundane and downright ugly, the audience would either not believe it or just be turned off magic forever.

This is particularly true for Derren Brown, although I really admire his skill and the packaging he's woven around his tricks. But by golly, some folk would be horrified if they knew their favourite psychology stunts are aided by hidden cameras and microphones. So much so, that I doubt they'd believe it.

But I think that adds to his act, not takes away. Magic is all about presentation, who cares what the mechanics are?

[brodski]

I have it on very good authority that he employs some very mundane trickery that would leave his most rabid NLP-loving fans in tears of disappointment. Oh well, it makes for good TV.

Yes, one of my friends appeared on one of his TV shows when she was a psychology student. She made some very revealing observations.

[Azrael 5]

Yes, one of my friends appeared on one of his TV shows when she was a psychology student. She made some very revealing observations.

Do tell.

[Big Les]

Do tell.

Yes, and feel free to PM one or more of us if you'd rather not reply on the thread. :D

I'm not too surprised to hear that his explanation was not in fact the method he used; like all magicians you can't trust him as far as you could throw him. He muddies the waters further these days with his apparent "debunking" stance and associated demonstrations.

[brodski]

Do tell.

Yes, and feel free to PM one or more of us if you'd rather not reply on the thread. :D

I'm not too surprised to hear that his explanation was not in fact the method he used; like all magicians you can't trust him as far as you could throw him. He muddies the waters further these days with his apparent "debunking" stance and associated demonstrations.

PM sent.

[Azrael 5]

Yes, and feel free to PM one or more of us if you'd rather not reply on the thread. :D

I'm not too surprised to hear that his explanation was not in fact the method he used; like all magicians you can't trust him as far as you could throw him. He muddies the waters further these days with his apparent "debunking" stance and associated demonstrations.

Have you seen the analysis from Seance Big Les? I dont want to bash Derren,but some of his claims of not using stooges is rather dubious.

It doesn't matter if you haven't actually seen Seance but it was part of a thread on the old forum.Anyway here it is thanks to Darat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhaUpOkShOQ

2.86 seconds that I cannot figure out.:confused:

[Mr Clingford]

I'm not a magician but freediving is a hobby of mine and therefore I was very interested in his walking on broken glass stunt. Presumably the putting the bag over the head induces a diving reflex with vasconstriction of the extremities. The lack of pulse in the wrist shows that the bloodflow has been reduced to the hands and feet and with less blood in them it is safer to walk on the glass. Of course the glass may not be normal glass (despite what he said) and as the glass gives under his weight it might not be so dangerous to walk on it anyway?

Thoughts?

[Darat]

I'm not a magician but freediving is a hobby of mine and therefore I was very interested in his walking on broken glass stunt. Presumably the putting the bag over the head induces a diving reflex with vasconstriction of the extremities. The lack of pulse in the wrist shows that the bloodflow has been reduced to the hands and feet and with less blood in them it is safer to walk on the glass. Of course the glass may not be normal glass (despite what he said) and as the glass gives under his weight it might not be so dangerous to walk on it anyway?

Thoughts?

All of that is just showmanship. You can walk on a carpet of broken glass - that has been carefully swept to ensure the height of the shards and peices are all the same - with very little fear of cutting your feet since the pressure is even distributed and there is nothing sticking up above the level of the glass height. What this trick uses is our experience that broken glass cuts - it does when forced into the skin.

It's rather like firewalking - there is nothing at all mysterious to doing that apart from it is "counter intuitive".

[Azrael 5]

...and the pulse stopping is a trick and the plastic bag over the head is just dumb."The Great Prestoni" never did that!! :D
The newspaper prediction on the other hand hurts my brain.

[andyandy]

is there any reason that there's so few threads in conjourer's corner? I've never ventured in here before, and it would be nice to read past ones - but the threads page stops on page 1.....do i need to show my magic circle membership to get higher level access? :D

[PenguinWarrior]

is there any reason that there's so few threads in conjourer's corner? I've never ventured in here before, and it would be nice to read past ones - but the threads page stops on page 1.....do i need to show my magic circle membership to get higher level access? :D



I've got a couple of theories. The first is that magic is a field that a reasonably small percentage of the population is interested in, and that applies to skeptics as much as it does the general population.

The second is that the only thing worth talking about in magic is how the tricks are done, and that is not allowed here. This reduces conversation to the level of "Magician/Trick X was good wasn't he/she/it?" "Yes, I quite enjoyed him/her/it" "Nah, he/she/it was boring", and a little bit of coded language by those trying to get around the rules. I think this is incredibly stupid, personally, but the whole "Thou shalt not reveal the secrets, verily" is sadly rather ingrained in the collective psyche of magicians, despite the fact that it is, in my opinion, half the fun finding out exactly how the git did it. Since this is a site based on an organisation run by a magician, it is therefore not surprising that this rule is enforced, despite the fact that it basically cripples the level of discourse. Oh, well.

I recognise that people feel differently about the whole revealing of secrets thing, but they are not the type of people who would come here anyway. I love KNOWING. Hell, figuring out the secrets behind tricks/deception/mysteries is what being a skeptic is largely about. And it's not as if it ruins the trick. The solution of the pulse slowing/stopping trick for example is beatifully simple, despite the fact that the trick itself seems utterly baffling at first. Baffled, then enlightened, that's what magic should be about.

That's why I never post here, anyhow. Or come here, really. I only popped in to see if there was any discussion of Derren Brown's new show. And now I depart, in a puff of smoke.

*Puff*

[Mr Clingford]

I don't remember seeing the glass being raked - is that hidden at some point from the theatre audience too?

This pulse thing - is it a trick of physiology or something that can't be revealed type thing?

I couldn't remember that "The Great Prestoni" name which annoyed me - but having got it, thanks Azrael 5, I googled it and found it to come from a Dick Van Dyke show!

[Azrael 5]

The pulse stop is physiology,but also a magic trick-can't see it having any other use.So no revealing online.

[DJM]

Does anyone have any clue about the newspapers part? It looked like there were so many different free choises. It looks just impossible, especially if the word is indeed from a real paper! I've never seen anything like this.

[tkingdoll]

I don't remember seeing the glass being raked - is that hidden at some point from the theatre audience too?

This pulse thing - is it a trick of physiology or something that can't be revealed type thing?

I couldn't remember that "The Great Prestoni" name which annoyed me - but having got it, thanks Azrael 5, I googled it and found it to come from a Dick Van Dyke show!

Randi himself has revealed how the pulse trick is done, I've seen the video online but can't find the link - it's the Carlos documentary. I'm sure someone posted a link in the forum a few months ago, it's there somewhere but I checked the links section and can't find it so it must be in a thread. Worth a watch!

[firecoins]

Randi himself has revealed how the pulse trick is done, I've seen the video fonline but can't find the link - it's the Carlos documentary. I'm sure someone posted a link in the forum a few months ago, it's there somewhere but I checked the links section and can't find it so it must be in a thread. Worth a watch!
I know how the pulse effect is done. Its quite simple but can be played like a miracle by an expert showman.

[tkingdoll]

I know how the pulse effect is done. Its quite simple but can be played like a miracle by an expert showman.

What I love about that trick is how simple it is. When I saw the vid I realised I would never, ever have thought of that.

Here's an interesting thought: if we're not allowed to reveal how tricks are done, how would we debunk someone who was claiming Derren could really read minds?

[firecoins]

Here's an interesting thought: if we're not allowed to reveal how tricks are done, how would we debunk someone who was claiming Derren could really read minds?

From the front page of Derren's website

Derren Brown is a unique force in the world of illusion - he can seemingly predict and control human behaviour.
He doesn't claim to be a mind-reader, instead he describes his craft as a mixture of magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship.
Whatever you choose to call it, his unparalleled performances amaze and unsettle all those who watch him. This is a powerful and provocative form of entertainment, unlikely to be imitated for a long while.


From the description of the Devil's Picturbook DVDs Derren sells on the magician's side of his website.


For ten years Derren was a professional close-up magician before making the move to perform only mind-reading. It was with his card-magic that he made a name for himself, and this tape contains all of that world-class card repertoire. The viewer is then taken into examples and explanations of his unique brand of direct mind-reading with cards which has gone some way towards revolutionising mentalism for the new Millennium.


The fact that Derren has a magician's side of his website should be more than enough proof. Derren creates the illusion of mindreading.

[tkingdoll]

Derren has published some of his effects.



Well, Randi has revealed the pulse trick on TV, but I still can't say how it's done in here. Hmm...but could I do it in another thread? A true believer probably wouldn't state their beliefs in this section of the forum anyway.

[firecoins]

Well, Randi has revealed the pulse trick on TV, but I still can't say how it's done in here. Hmm...but could I do it in another thread? A true believer probably wouldn't state their beliefs in this section of the forum anyway.
This conjurer's section so there is no need to reveal the secret. If your dealing with someone who believes Derren is for real...show Derren's website. Derren is not claiming to be real. He claims to be doing illusions.

[tkingdoll]

This conjurer's section so there is no need to reveal the secret. If your dealing with someone who believes Derren is for real...show Derren's website. Derren is not claiming to be real. He claims to be doing illusions.

See, there's the problem. Lots of people are rabid fans and read his website all the time, and they still believe he has magic powers.

I saw his live show a few years ago and he went to such great pains to explain how spiritualism isn't real. He then did a trick in which he got a woman to contact his 'dead' friend, and in the lobby afterwards stupid middle-aged women were gasping over how he was talking to the dead. Unless you could actually tell/show them how it was done, there's no way "it's just a trick" would convince them.

[Azrael 5]

If they don't believe Derren when he says it's fake,and he's the one doing it,then what hope is there for them?

[tkingdoll]

If they don't believe Derren when he says it's fake,and he's the one doing it,then what hope is there for them?

The problem is often the claim that "this is a trick" rather than "this is a trick and here's how it's done". In a perverse way, they are actually asking for evidence. Bit like skeptics!

[firecoins]

The problem is often the claim that "this is a trick" rather than "this is a trick and here's how it's done". In a perverse way, they are actually asking for evidence. Bit like skeptics!
Well its simple. Perform the effect yourself! Don't tell the secret because these people are idiots. If even Derren says its fake and they don't believe him than they are idiots.

[tkingdoll]

Well its simple. Perform the effect yourself! Don't tell the secret because these people are idiots. If even Derren says its fake and they don't believe him than they are idiots.

Millions of people qualify as idiots, but that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile educating them. It's not always as simple as "be rational or be stupid", for many people it's a slow process, particularly those who have never been exposed to critical thinking in any way.

It's problematic to say "I want you to believe this is a trick but I cannot give you the evidence that it is". And yet we complain when people think it's real.

[Darat]

As Admin:

Randi imposed the "no revealing tricks" conditions on his Forum a long time ago and it did raise some hackles back then and accusations that he was being hypocritical. But to be be blunt we just have to live with it.

The issue regarding needing to explain a trick to help explain to someone why their conclusion was in error has come up a few times in the past (but I've not seen it for a couple of years) - Members just pointed to other sites and other forums where tricks are explained rather then post the actual trick here. Have to add I never saw a trick being explained changed anyone's belief that a certain effect could be explained without any call to supernatural powers or phenomena...

Also there is a bit if a grey area, for example if Randi has explained a trick in a SWIFT article I'd let someone post that here.

[Garrette]

PM sent.Could I trouble you for a pm, too?

Azrael5 and a couple of others can vouch that I'm a bit of a magician.

Thanks.

[Garrette]

In reference to the no-revealing-secrets thing, perhaps a restricted-access sub-forum is called for? Or maybe there isn't enough of a call for it after all.

It would need someone to act as a sort of administrator and to "vett" (sp?) applicants. There are a few accomplished magicians here who could do it (I'm not one of them).

[brodski]

Could I trouble you for a pm, too?

Azrael5 and a couple of others can vouch that I'm a bit of a magician.

Thanks.

Pm sent, I'm not discriminating between magicians and non magicians here (otherwise I wouldn't be able to let myself see what i wrote ;) ), but i see a difference between posting this information on a public forum where the casual reader my see it and have their illusions shattered, and using the PM system, where only people who have asked for the information can read it.
Kid of like the difference between seeing one of those "secrets of magic revealed" TV shows, and going to the library to read a book on how to perform magic tricks.

[Garrette]

Pm sent,Got it. Many thanks.

[Azrael 5]

Brodski was this at Seance recording,did you find out?

Garrette, latest show being sent tomorrow!!

[Garrette]

Garrette, latest show being sent tomorrow!!Great. If you were Hawk one, and if somebody had nominated me this month, I'd perform perverse sexual favors for you!

Heck, maybe I will anyway, but I'll probably be alone when I do...

[firecoins]

Millions of people qualify as idiots, but that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile educating them. It's not always as simple as "be rational or be stupid", for many people it's a slow process, particularly those who have never been exposed to critical thinking in any way.

It's problematic to say "I want you to believe this is a trick but I cannot give you the evidence that it is". And yet we complain when people think it's real.
how does revealing the secret all of a sudden help the see the light? They won't believe that is the method. They want to believe it to be real even though the person performing the effect has already said its fake.

[Azrael 5]

Dunno what Hawk One is Garette,but thanks. :)

[Garrette]

how does revealing the secret all of a sudden help the see the light? They won't believe that is the method. They want to believe it to be real even though the person performing the effect has already said its fake.I certainly don't know tkingdoll's position on this, and I'm not certain I even know mine, but I suspect she is thinking along these lines (at least I am thinking along these lines):

Many believers will believe regardless of the evidence, but not all of them will and possibly not most. Since I don't know how to tell the difference on sight, I assume a specific believer is amenable to accepting the evidence. Even if they don't immediately drop their beliefs, perhaps the mere introduction of evidence is enough to begin them thinking, to set them on the road that will eventually lead them to rational conclusions.

[brodski]

Brodski was this at Seance recording,did you find out?


i didn't see my friend in the end, but when i do I'll ask her and let you know.

[pjh]

I watched this show, and was amazed at how ordinary it was compared to his TV shows.

- We've seen 'predictions' locked away in safes/envelopes for years.

- 3 Physiological 'non-tricks' - (pulse stopping, walking on glass and nail in the head).

- He also seemed to go out of his way to make it obvious how he was doing his signature "I know when you're lying" routine by using a very dodgy looking pad and balls.

If I'd have paid money to see that show in a theatre I'd have been right disappointed, highlighting for me once again that in his TV shows Derren relies far to much on cameras and editing. On a stage I have to say he came across as barely competent.

And yet those who must believe still want to see Derren as some sort of master of the human mind, capable of reading thoughts/body language and subliminally forcing his subjects to make predefined choices.

[JonWhite]

I've always enjoyed Derren Brown. I've seen him live and watched most of his TV stuff. I've got to agree with pjh however in that - with the exception of "Russian Roullette" which in itself really didn't justify being any more than a 5 minute piece - "Something Wicked.." was the weakest show I've seen. It really was almost entirely composed of re-packaged magic/mentalism tricks. Knowing how the majority of it was performed sadly detracted even the items I didn't. A real pity!

[Azrael 5]

I watched this show, and was amazed at how ordinary it was compared to his TV shows.

- We've seen 'predictions' locked away in safes/envelopes for years.

- 3 Physiological 'non-tricks' - (pulse stopping, walking on glass and nail in the head).

- He also seemed to go out of his way to make it obvious how he was doing his signature "I know when you're lying" routine by using a very dodgy looking pad and balls.

If I'd have paid money to see that show in a theatre I'd have been right disappointed, highlighting for me once again that in his TV shows Derren relies far to much on cameras and editing. On a stage I have to say he came across as barely competent.

And yet those who must believe still want to see Derren as some sort of master of the human mind, capable of reading thoughts/body language and subliminally forcing his subjects to make predefined choices.

That's TV for ya! Editing,favourable camera angles etc.Just for the record though,there was nothing dodgy about the balls-I know how it's done.
Why would you be dissapointed in the theatre? Are you cheated when David Copperfield "flys" or saws himself in half? Still just a trick.Ok so Derren has set himself up for a big fall as a result of his TV work,but he is still entertaining.

[JonWhite]

Perhaps you've hit the nail on the head Azrael (or should that be shoved the nail up your nose?). Most of Derren's previous work has been of a very high calibre and so it probably is unrealistic to expect the bar to be set so high all the time. Maybe an over-exposure could also be partly to blame..

[pjh]

That's TV for ya! Editing,favourable camera angles etc.
No I mean that to pull off some of his tricks he breaks the implicit contract with the TV viewer that the TV recording is a fair representation of what a viewer 'present' would see.
Just for the record though,there was nothing dodgy about the balls-I know how it's done.
I was implying that the pad he used for them to write their mother's maiden names on was obviously a prop.

Why would you be dissapointed in the theatre? Are you cheated when David Copperfield "flys" or saws himself in half? Still just a trick.Ok so Derren has set himself up for a big fall as a result of his TV work,but he is still entertaining.
As I said, if I'd have been very pissed to have paid top dollar to see a fairly simple 'sealed envelope' followed by nail in nose, stopped pulse and walking on glass, even wrapped up in Derren's banter.

[Azrael 5]

There was more to the show,but some was edited.So you would have got more for you rmoney.I agree that blockhead(nail in nose)and the glass walking were pointless though.I would like to have seen his previous tour televised(it was based around spiritualism and seances and was much better)."Fairly simple" sealed envelope? Isn't anything simple if you know how it's done? ;)

[DJM]

What you watched on TV was only 1:15 hours long, the uncut show is over 2 hours. There were a couple of very cool stuff that were cut because of time limit. I really don't understand those who say that these things are too simple. I'm not a magician myself and I have no idea how most of his stuff could be done. Like Azrael said, everything is simple when you already know the secret.

By the way, I kinda doubt anyone could know how to do the trick with the newpapers at the end. It was something I've never seen before, not this way at least. I'd like to hear some theories about it.

[NeilC]

I do like Derren Brown and liked the show. It did however confirm that the TV shows are edited to the point of being meaningless (like most TV as it happens) and that he really is just at the same level as many other decent mentalist acts out there.

I could work out every one of the effects on the TV show. But then I am an amateur magic buff and have read a fair amount on mentalism. I must say I thought the balls in the bag effect was pretty weak. Even my wife worked it out instantly.

The finale effect was excellent and was harder to workout in details but easier if you consider that perhaps it doesn't go exactly along those lines each time. I think you need to know a few things about mentalism to track it completely.

I'm beginning to find his presentation angle quite tiresome now - the whole psychobabble thing has been taken too far and doesn't even make sense in the context of many of the effects.

Having said all that, I enjoyed the show and admire his performance skills.

[LushyLouTheMagicShoe]

PM sent.

Could I have the PM as well??

I saw the show last night ... the thing about the number 14 is clearly ridiculous, the woman has to say a combination first for the briefcase and she actually says both 15 and 13 during it.

Personally I thought this live show was better than his last ones ... the influential teaser was as good as anything he does with the aid of the cameras on tv

[pjh]

The finale effect was excellent and was harder to workout in details but easier if you consider that perhaps it doesn't go exactly along those lines each time. I think you need to know a few things about mentalism to track it completely.
This makes me wonder about your amateur magician skills. How you get to the word is entirely irrelevant, the sealed envelope routine can be done in a number of ways, the thing which 'shows off' the magician's skill is the length of time between the word being revealed and the opening and reveal of the envelope.

Magicians have been doing sealed predictions for years, be they words or drawings. Derren's gimmick is to pretend he influences the subject's choice in some way, but you've got to remember that it's just a gimmick, it's magicians banter.

[NeilC]

This makes me wonder about your amateur magician skills. How you get to the word is entirely irrelevant, the sealed envelope routine can be done in a number of ways, the thing which 'shows off' the magician's skill is the length of time between the word being revealed and the opening and reveal of the envelope.

Magicians have been doing sealed predictions for years, be they words or drawings. Derren's gimmick is to pretend he influences the subject's choice in some way, but you've got to remember that it's just a gimmick, it's magicians banter.

Not entirely sure what you mean. There are tons of different sealed envelope routines.

How you get to the word, in this case is entirely relevant. As far as I could tell it was mostly a force routine. The nature and seeming fairness of the forces are surely paramount.

From what I could tell Derren used zero influencing techniques. Clearly all that is sham.

[Baron Samedi]

i was wondering that myself....not that i'm a proper magician or anything :)

some bits such as the forcing of choosing page 14 and the selection of the piece of paper with "influential" on i would have thought would have worked without the previous subliminal cues -
i'm sure you could do some statistical research to show that in a situation where an entire auditorium of people is waiting on your choice (in the case of the newspaper headline) that you would be self conscious enough to not want to keep people waiting too long, whilst not wishing to choose the first couple of headlines, thus "spoiling" the drama....i also noticed he tapped the paper three times quite loudly before reading the third article - quite a blatant cue to choose it (i watched derren brown previously explaining using similar techniques to direct someone to choosing a particular card....)
Put all this together, I'd expect the third article would be chosen in most occasions regardless of previous subliminal spookiness....

equally in the choosing of the number of pieces to count off - that's just a rather simple magician's trick - as long as you know where the piece is that you want to be chosen is, you can manipulate which pieces you count to ensure they end up with the requied one...

but how to direct someone in the audience to choose p14 over the other 3 possible sides, and then to drop half the torn up page does seem rather a lot to leave to chance....
maybe the back of page 14 was not "attractive" - say an advert or the financial section....but even so it's impressive...

after watching derren brown's The Heist, he does seem to have a remarkable ability to control people's actions

:boxedin:

It looks like Youtube pulled the video of the trick, sadly. Do you remember what happened in this one? Not the secrets, but what the audience sees

[Azrael 5]

From what I could tell Derren used zero influencing techniques. Clearly all that is sham.

Presentation! Nothing to do with a sham at all.Is it a sham when a magician waves a hand before his assistant's eyes to hypnotize them prior to sawing in half? When David Copperfield flaps his arms to make himself "fly"?

God some people on here are such pedants! Magic itself is a sham,is it not? :rolleyes:

[pjh]

Presentation! Nothing to do with a sham at all.Is it a sham when a magician waves a hand before his assistant's eyes to hypnotize them prior to sawing in half? When David Copperfield flaps his arms to make himself "fly"?

God some people on here are such pedants! Magic itself is a sham,is it not? :rolleyes:

This argument has been done to death with regards to Mr Brown.

Let's say Copperfield at the end of his show "showed" how it was done, and this involved super powerful magnets and a special anti-gravity device from a Russian physicist. Look I wasn't "really flying", it was this new mag-lev technology - very hush hush.

Let's also say that a substantial proportion of the audience believes that explanation at face value, and it contributes to the overall 'woo-ishness' out there regarding anti-grav. You (and others) have argued that this is fair play for magicians, their job is to deceive, and their audience enters a pact that allows for this.

I on the other hand think that this just adds to the overall level of dumb beliefs and is counter-productive. I just want to be able to stand up and say, "Yes enjoy the magician, but his explanations are just more misdirection."

How you get to the word, in this case is entirely relevant. As far as I could tell it was mostly a force routine. The nature and seeming fairness of the forces are surely paramount.
If he used any 'forces' he was doing it the hard way. What exactly do you think was forced, and why do you think that he would do it any other way than the traditional 'sealed envelope' methods, which are simpler, produce the same effect and are 100% successful.

[DJM]

What a huge sham... Maybe he's related to Sylvia Brown(e)? :rolleyes:

I really have no idea how Derren can be more honest than he is. He keeps telling all the time how everything he does is involved magic, showmenship, psychology, misdirection. So he openly admits that a lot of his stuff are tricks that related to magic and people shouldn't really believe what he does. Like he said on that live show, he's always honest about his dishonesty. How many magicians do you know that openly state that at every show? And I don't even think any magician needs to say anything because it should be obvious for everyone that it's all just a show, and not every word a magician says is true. This is what magic is all about! They are not less than some actors playing a role.

If people till want to believe everything Derren does is real then it's only their fault, not his.

[NeilC]

Presentation! Nothing to do with a sham at all.Is it a sham when a magician waves a hand before his assistant's eyes to hypnotize them prior to sawing in half? When David Copperfield flaps his arms to make himself "fly"?

God some people on here are such pedants! Magic itself is a sham,is it not? :rolleyes:

Err you appear to have completely the wrong end of the stick.

Sham =fake = not real = not the method used.

That's all I'm saying - that the supposed verbal cues are not how the trick works, obviously.

[NeilC]

If he used any 'forces' he was doing it the hard way. What exactly do you think was forced, and why do you think that he would do it any other way than the traditional 'sealed envelope' methods, which are simpler, produce the same effect and are 100% successful.

Don't mean to be rude but did you actually see the effect? I can't quite work out why you are saying what you are.

It was, to my mind, obviously a series of forces plus an alternate outcome or two. What makes you think physical forces are not 100% successful? I'm not talking verbal forces here. What other method do you propose he used to produce the effect? You think he let the whole thing run as it appeared and merely changed the contents of the envelope, and the case and the video clips right at the end? In that case you have to wonder: why he went through such a conveluted selection process and why other pretend verbal cues don't appear in the act and subsequent video revelation - I've watched it a couple of times and it's only the Mail and 14 etc that are mentioned. That would be one hell of an outcome to lose to fate.

We're not supposed to disclose secrets so it's hard to discuss but then I don't KNOW the secrets I can only say what he MIGHT have done - at least what he COULD have done to produce the same effect. Take the choice of page number and word: He selected the Times newspaper used, he read out the new stories, he showed that the one she selected was on Page 14. Take the choice of piece of paper. He handled the torn up strips, he took them out of view before putting them on the table. Both situations open to competely reliable physical forces.

[NeilC]

It looks like Youtube pulled the video of the trick, sadly. Do you remember what happened in this one? Not the secrets, but what the audience sees

A woman was randomly selected to hold a locked briefcase at the start of the show. She was to try to crack the combinations lock during the break. He threw some newspapers out into the crowd and made a point of saying you could take them home if you wanted. She was called up onto the stage. She selected one of the people with a paper The Mail. He supposedly influenced her to pick some number which appeared to open the lock. Inside the case was another case. He selected The Times. He read out stories, unseen by us, from it until she chose one. He showed her that this was on page 14. Therefore page 14 of the Mail was used, but not just page 14 but the whole sheet it was on. This was torn in two and one selected which involved the person in the audience handing it to another person seated next to them. The paper was torn into pieces and one lot held in one hand and the other in the other. The girl on stage selected one of the handfuls. DB then carried this handful, ostensibly at fingertips, to a table on the stage. The girls selected a number 1-10, She chose 8 and he counted down 8 pieces and she ended up with the 9th as it happened. She was told to circle a long word that was complete (ie had all it's letters - the piece was small and torn). She picked influential. He got her to confirm that there were other long words on it. An envelope that had been placed on a stand earlier (pretty early on) was opened by her and it contained a banner of the the word influential in cutout. He then opened the case and it contained a page 14 of the Mail with the world influential circled in pen. He then showed video clips of the show demonstrating that he had supposedly influenced the crowd by inserting the words Mail, 14, influential, circle the word etc repeatedly and obviously throughout the show.

[DJM]

I think it's the best effect I've ever seen, I was totaly blown away by everything. Especially with the way that it all started at the beginning of the show with the suitcase and then video clips at the end... pure genius! It's the kind of thing I would only expect to see on his regular TV shows.

[Baron Samedi]

Thanks Splossy. Now I can see why you all are a little upset with him. It does sound like a typical envelope prediction test. At least when Penn & Teller do it on stage, the audience is told that it's just a trick done by a whole lot of cheating. :) I'll have to agree that DB is treading very close to that fun vs. fraud deception. While magician's have been giving phony explinations for years, when they mention that their dead pet bunny Fluffy has given them mental powers, they do so an the beginning of the act. But doing so at the end, people will walk away thinking that it's legitimate. Mind you, don't Criss Angel and David Blaine do the same thing? I remember an episode of CA where he spent the entire show 'training' so he could lift a car at the end, and then a big display of his ripped abs. I somehow don't think it was the exercise that allowed him to lift the car.

[NeilC]

No worries.

BTW I'm not remotely upset by DB or anyone else. I think it's perfectly legitimate for a magic performer to give fake justification and methods for his act.

[wombatwal]

Could I have the PM as well??

I saw the show last night ... the thing about the number 14 is clearly ridiculous, the woman has to say a combination first for the briefcase and she actually says both 15 and 13 during it.

Personally I thought this live show was better than his last ones ... the influential teaser was as good as anything he does with the aid of the cameras on tv

Could I also have the PM please.

[DJM]

Well it's pretty obvious that most likely all those explanations in the video are not the truth, but he does all that to make the trick much more amazing than it would normally be. That is his job, to amaze the people in the audience. I don't think his explanations are any different than when every mentalist in the world makes it seems like he can read people's minds during the show, while he's only using some tricks to achive all that. It's basicially the same thing. If magicians would start being completly honest during shows, then it would become pretty boring..

[Azrael 5]

I think some people- pjh especially-are just better off watching soaps on TV,that way they know it's all pretend and don't have to worry about it!
Derren is a magician,I don't care what he claims(I do believe there is some suggestion involved in his act,although his act obviosly cannot rely on it!)as long as it is in the parameters of a magic act.If he starts claiming psychic ability then I'll get worked up!!

[pjh]

Derren is a magician,I don't care what he claims(I do believe there is some suggestion involved in his act,although his act obviosly cannot rely on it!)
Well people like you believe all sorts of wacky things that there is no evidence for. Your belief in Derren's "powers of suggestion" is no difference from some other nutjob's belief in the psychic powers of Uri Geller.

You both believe what you *want* to be true and fail to see that Derren and uri both do magic tricks. In your worldview you want it to be possible to subliminally influence people, in much the same way as Sylvia Browne's fans do.

I think some people- pjh especially-are just better off watching soaps on TV,that way they know it's all pretend and don't have to worry about it!
As you have just admitted you DON'T KNOW IT'S ALL PRETEND, in fact you have stated the opposite, you *believe* he genuinely can use a form suggestion to influence people.

I have no problem with people being amazed by magicians, I don't think it's right that he cons gullible people like you into thinking his powers of suggestion are real.

[DJM]

pjh, have you even seen his shows? He's been doing so many things during the last few years that can't be done just by normal tricks. Like: making people in the subway forget where they are supposed to go, making someone fall asleep for hours until the sun is down, making a girl lose her voice and control her moves by using a voodoo doll and so many other things that can't be described just as "tricks". And no, he doesn't use any stooges. He said a lot of times that if someone found he's been using stooges, his career would be over. And the papers would pay a lot of money for someone to speak up.

It makes sense that during his live shows he would take less chances. But the stuff on his TV shows are sometimes more than just magic tricks.

[pjh]

pjh, have you even seen his shows? He's been doing so many things during the last few years that can't be done just by normal tricks. Like: making people in the subway forget where they are supposed to go, making someone fall asleep for hours until the sun is down, making a girl lose her voice and control her moves by using a voodoo doll and so many other things that can't be described just as "tricks". And no, he doesn't use any stooges. He said a lot of times that if someone found he's been using stooges, his career would be over. And the papers would pay a lot of money for someone to speak up.

It makes sense that during his live shows he would take less chances. But the stuff on his TV shows are sometimes more than just magic tricks.

Yes I've seen all his shows.

Look I'm not saying he uses 'stooges', I'm saying he doesn't use suggestion/hypnosis/NLP/reading body language/subliminal messages. He uses standard conjuring techniques which he has tricked you (and others) into believing you're seeing something else.

Just because you can't figure out how they're performed doesn't mean he's doing them the way he 'explains' he does them.

[DJM]

Just because you can't figure out how they're performed doesn't mean he's doing them the way he 'explains' he does them.


Well I have a feeling that you don't how it's being performed either... You can only guess that all of his stuff isn't as the way as he says it is.

It's obvious there are some effects using regular tricks, but I think there's also a few things that is just impossible to do without using some kind of hypnosis and suggestion. Unless you have some kind of inside info that nothing is real, you can only speculate about that.

It looks like we are in agreement that he's not using any stooges. So I'm a little confused when you say that what he's using are standard magic tricks. If it's so standard then why not everone is doing the same amazing things that he's done? And how the heck can you make someone foreget his next stop using a magic trick? :confused:

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

I don't have much of a magic background, but I worked out how he did quite a few tricks during the show. Sky Plus is amazing for rewinding and watching in slow motion.

I haven't got right to the end, but I'm at the point where he got the girl to 'guess' the combination of the lock.

Does it spoil my enjoyment? Not really, but maybe a little bit of the 'magic' is lost. But I am more likely to watch his shows in the future as I want to try to work out how he does everything. You have to admire the man for claiming the mind-reading niche as his own, and for being skilled to pull it off in a live environment, and producing great TV shows, even though we know there must be editing going on, and the possibility of stooges.

I'd agree that he probably takes a lot less risk during a live show, hence why some of the tricks were easy to work out, such as the balls in the bag.

ETA: when I say I worked out how he did tricks, I mean I worked how I think he might have done them

[andyandy]

Well people like you believe all sorts of wacky things that there is no evidence for. Your belief in Derren's "powers of suggestion" is no difference from some other nutjob's belief in the psychic powers of Uri Geller.

You both believe what you *want* to be true and fail to see that Derren and uri both do magic tricks. In your worldview you want it to be possible to subliminally influence people, in much the same way as Sylvia Browne's fans do.


As you have just admitted you DON'T KNOW IT'S ALL PRETEND, in fact you have stated the opposite, you *believe* he genuinely can use a form suggestion to influence people.

I have no problem with people being amazed by magicians, I don't think it's right that he cons gullible people like you into thinking his powers of suggestion are real.

You seem to have misunderstood Azrael's posts. Maybe you could read them again a bit slower?

Not wishing to misrepresent your position, do you believe (as your post implies) that suggestion can not be used to influence people at all?
There's really no need to throw out the human psychology baby with the NLP bathwater.....

[pjh]

It looks like we are in agreement that he's not using any stooges. So I'm a little confused when you say that what he's using are standard magic tricks. If it's so standard then why not everone is doing the same amazing things that he's done? And how the heck can you make someone foreget his next stop using a magic trick? :confused:

I think in that question of yours I bolded I begin to see why Derren's stuff causes a disconnect. When a magician saws a woman in half you don't ask "How did he saw that woman in half" you ask "how did he make me believe I saw a woman being sawed in half".

It's the same for Derren. The question is not "how did he make that man forget his station", the question you should be asking is "how did he make me believe I watched him make a man forget his station".

The woman is not really sawn in half (it's an illusion!) what makes you think the man really did forget his station?

[DJM]

I'm sorry, but your explanation just doesn't make sense. When a magician cuts someone in half, then you know that there has been preparation before and that the woman knows exactly what she needs to do. If some magician cuts some girl he just met on the street, then I would agree with you.

This is how it goes with Derren: he goes to the subway, asks a random person where he's heading. A few seconds later that person forgets it. If there was some kind of preparation, then that would be consided a stooge and could get Derren in trouble, especially when there are so many people on the train. And by the people's expressions it looks very real to me. If you want to see stooges, check out Criss angel and see how it's simple to see a fake expression by someone.

And how about the time Derren made someone to give him his things on the street? It's impossible to do that unless they planned it before, which is again considered a stooge. I really can't think of any magic trick that makes someone give your their stuff. If you know which magic stores sell that stuff, then it would be great to know!

The question is not "how did he make that man forget his station", the question you should be asking is "how did he make me believe I watched him make a man forget his station".

I really have no idea what you mean by that. How can you do something like this without using stooges? It just doesn't make sense. Do you have any theories behind your claims, or you are just speculating everything?

[pjh]

I'm sorry, but your explanation just doesn't make sense. When a magician cuts someone in half, then you you know that there has been preparation before and that the woman knows exactly what she needs to do. If some magician cuts some girl he just met on the street, then I would agree with you.
Yes you *know* that the woman wasn't cut in half, you know you were tricked into seeing a woman being cut in half.

This is how it goes with Derren: he goes to the subway, asks a random person where he's heading. A few seconds later that person forgets it. If there was some kind of preparation, then that would be consided a stooge and could get Derren in trouble, especially when there are so many people on the train. And by the people's expressions it looks very real to me. If you want to see stooges, check out Criss angel and see how it's simple to see a fake expression by someone.

Again you are taking the trick at face value. Women are not *really* cut in half, people do not *really* forget their stations, we are the ones being tricked into 'seeing' an illusion.

And how about the time Derren made someone to give him his things on the street? It's impossible to do that unless they planned it before, which is again considered a stooge. I really can't think of any magic trick that makes someone give your their stuff. If you know which magic stores sell that stuff, then it would be great to know!
Once again don't consider what you saw a magician do to be a 'fact'. The illusion is to trick the audience (you and me) into seeing something amazing. Just because you saw Derren make people give him something spontaneously on the street doesn't mean that someone gave him something spontaneously on the street - merely that that's what you were tricked into 'seeing'. It's an illusion!

I really have no idea what you mean by that. How can you do something like this without using stooges? It just doesn't make sense.
All of this can be done without using stooges.

[NeilC]

For that stage show none or very little suggestion/influencing work was required to produce the effects.

For some of his other work he does do a fair bit and has pushed the boundaries between magic, mentalism, hypnotism and suggestion. other performers like Kenton Knepper and more recently Luke Jermay also do a lot of this sort of stuff and it can work surprisingly well on the right people.

There is a reasonably well known and published suggestive method for getting people to forget things which involves waving the hand in front of the face after series of suggestions. If remember the name of it I'll post back but I think it or something similar might also appear in Jermay's "7 Deceptions". That book also features a "method" of getting someone to see the lines on their palm start to wriggle about.

These things don't work all the time on all people so they are no good for most stage show tours etc but ideal for close-up situations. The trick is to weave them into other, more traditional effects so that if they fail at least AN effect happens that is still impressive - again Jermay's act and books include a lot of this. Of course on a TV show you don't need to worry as you only show what works.

I'm not saying this is how DB did his tube stop thing - for all I know the people could have been pre-hypnotised or whatever. But you might be surprised what you can do with certain people (usually girls in my experience).

Something I made and and do myself - it a simple divination of card dressed up by the victim writing the name of a loved one on a marked card shuffled into a pack of 5 cards. Holding the victim's hand and I stare through their eyes long enough to make them feel uncomfortable (silence, anticipation and looking odd makes more people feel uncomfortable when they are not leading the procedings) whilst touching each card in turn. When you get to the right one you refocus into their eyes and pause and say, with gravity "did you feel...THAT.....that pressure that WARMTH..." and nod bit "yes...I can too...how weird" etc. If you look convinced and convincing then most of the time they will say they felt it and will feel it, partly because their focus is now on it and maybe you are pressing a bit harder but also a lot because you are telling them it's happening and are convincing. When the cards is revealed they are often quite...well.. disturbed! LOL

If you don't believe me, try it out. But do it with intensity and belief or it's just a big joke.

I imagine it would work even better if I could sum the the chutpah to grow a goatee and wear black clothes etc

[pjh]

For some of his other work he does do a fair bit and has pushed the boundaries between magic, mentalism, hypnotism and suggestion. other performers like Kenton Knepper and more recently Luke Jermay also do a lot of this sort of stuff and it can work surprisingly well on the right people.

Look, first of all 'hypnotism' (as seen on stage) is a form of play acting, where the hypnotist chooses those from the crowd that are willing to play along and make a bit of a fool of themselves.

Hypnotism as an explanation for a magic trick is plain dumb. Derren started his career as a hypnotist, and knows exactly what stage hypnosis involves. Because people like yourself have been dissing his effects as "oh well he just hypnotises them", he has categorically stated that he doesn't use an 'hypnosis' to achieve his effects.

I'm not saying that stage hypnotism doesn't exist, clearly it does (as a form of role-play) and many entertainers can build a show around it, but it's not an explanation of any sort for any of Derren's effects.

[Morwen]

I don't get all the furor. I've seen Derren Brown's shows, and he has some really excellent effects, dressing up old tricks in new clothes. He never claims to be anything other than a magician, and what he says in stage is part of the show. Out of the stage, and sometimes in it, he's a staunch sceptic; he very clearly and loudly speaks out against psychics and frauds. His effects are good, but not requiring any explanation beyond standard conjuring tricks.

That being said, I have no idea how he does them (except for a few of them). I want to believe he doesn't use stooges, but I don't know either way, although I'm quite convinced he doesn't have any mental powers nor subliminally influences people as he says he does. Moreover, I think sometimes the explanatios are ridicully simple. Of course, I'm also convinced David Copperfield cannot fly by himself. And I'm not angry at either of them for cheating me into believing, for the duration of their shows, that they can do these things. That's their job.

[NeilC]

Look, first of all 'hypnotism' (as seen on stage) is a form of play acting, where the hypnotist chooses those from the crowd that are willing to play along and make a bit of a fool of themselves.

Hypnotism as an explanation for a magic trick is plain dumb. Derren started his career as a hypnotist, and knows exactly what stage hypnosis involves. Because people like yourself have been dissing his effects as "oh well he just hypnotises them", he has categorically stated that he doesn't use an 'hypnosis' to achieve his effects.

I'm not saying that stage hypnotism doesn't exist, clearly it does (as a form of role-play) and many entertainers can build a show around it, but it's not an explanation of any sort for any of Derren's effects.

Hmm. I don't really like the way you debate. You pick one thing, leap upon it, make bold statements with no back up and then label me as "people like yourself". Each time I've addredsed specific points or asked you questions you've just moved on. Why not take some time to actually understand what people are writing before firing off thinking you know what they are saying? Go back and answer some of the points made about the show, forces etc etc. What about my references to Jermay's work? Can you actually refute things on the basis of information or are you just shouting from a fixed viewpoint here?

The exact nature of hypnotism is debatable. Go look it up before thinking you know it all. I didn't say his magic tricks are done using hypnosis but merely that he utilises elements of his stage hypnosis background in his TV shows. If you take the tube effect and put it in a stage hypnosis act then it would make complete sense. However I also proposed another, established method, which of course you chose to ignore.

You are not dealing with starry eyed Brown fans or Brown haters here.

[DJM]

I'm not saying that stage hypnotism doesn't exist, clearly it does (as a form of role-play) and many entertainers can build a show around it, but it's not an explanation of any sort for any of Derren's effects.

How do you know that? Did you ask him? I recommend you to read about The Handshake Induction and see it's just what Derren did on the street that time. Like Splossy said, these things don't work on anyone, that's why he only does it on his show. He probably needs to try it on several people until it works. But all these things do exist, so there's no reason why Derren doesn't do it sometimes. It makes much more sense than claiming it as some kind of illusion when most chances that there are no actors involved.

You keep saying there's an explanation for everything he does, yet you don't say what it is. And I don't believe that the people just play along because you would notice it in their reactions. Like I said, compare the people on his shows and the ones on Mindfreak, and you could tell the difference between the two without a problem.

[Azrael 5]

Pick a stranger and put them on the spot with a TV camera in their face,hurry them,confuse them and very likely they could forget their stop.Not everytime(indeed Derren admits it doesn't work all the time,and showed some that didn't.)Is that suggestion? A suggestible state maybe? I don't say he relies on suggestion in a trick's entirety neither.
Have you seen the trick on one series of Trick of the Mind where he plays Scissors Paper Stone with a football fan,and states from the off what the outcome will be? Thats not a trick in the literal,sleight of hand,sense and relys on psychology and suggestion.
I have been interested in magic for 25 years and know a hell of a lot of techniques,when you watch magic(however the tricks are claimed to be done)then being decieved is something you accept.

Most on here ,pjh,know I don't believe in Gellar,Browne or any woo so to accuse me of it shows your ignorance.Read what I write,not what you think I write.

[pjh]

The exact nature of hypnotism is debatable. Go look it up before thinking you know it all.
The exact nature of stage hypnotism is not debatable. It's a form of play acting. If you want to indulge some woo belief then fine.

I didn't say his magic tricks are done using hypnosis but merely that he utilises elements of his stage hypnosis background in his TV shows.
You hypothesised that he might. Derren has said he doesn't and anyway play-acting is not an explanation of these effects.
If you take the tube effect and put it in a stage hypnosis act then it would make complete sense. However I also proposed another, established method, which of course you chose to ignore.
Which I seemed to have missed, please outline it for me.
You are not dealing with starry eyed Brown fans or Brown haters here.
No I'm dealing with gullible 'must believe in some woo' people. Only your 'woo' seems to be hypnotism, suggestion and NLP.

How do you know that? Did you ask him? I recommend you to read about The Handshake Induction and see it's just what Derren did on the street that time.
I love how the fun loving skeptics suggest that Derren does no harm, and yet here in the same thread we see woo-woo stuff like handshake inductions. Possibly it's not his (Derren's) fault, but folks like DJM think that NLP and handshake inductions are real in part because of Derren's work.

Derren doesn't use handshake inductions for the simple fact that THEY DON'T WORK they're part of this made up baloney called NLP.

[NeilC]

You have decided, incorrectly, that I and others are "believers" in NLP etc. I'm not. But clearly trying to have a rational discussion with you, when you are so convinced in your pigeon holing of people is a waste of time. You proudly adopt the role of Lone Skeptic but it's ill considered seeing as you don't know what you are talking about and are incorrect in assigning beliefs to the people you are talking to.

The exact nature of stage hypnotism IS debatable as is proven by the many debates that are still ongoing. Some studies show that play acting is a major part. Some indicate a strong suggestive and mild trance state. That changes nothing. I know this already. It's not relevant to the discussion bearing in mind the type of effect I mentioned that COULD have used it to produce the effect as seen on TV. And seeing as you don't even know which effect I was suggesting that it might be part of (well actually I suggested a different method which, again, you've avoided addressing) then why are you arguing about it?

I notice you still haven't answered any of the points made on his stage act which you liked put down to "A sealed envelope" with no further explanation. I believe my explanation to be perfectly possible and quite probable.

Do I believe in hypnotism? Well what is hypnotism exactly? It's not a simple question to construct yet alone answer.

Do I believe in suggestion? Yes. It is proven to work. Advertising uses it. I've used it in magic effects. Does DB use it? Yes - he does on the lecture videos I have of his and he demonstrated it when I met him and his producer Anthony Owen through a mutual friend. Is it the mainstay of his act? Not really. Did he use it in the stage show? Not to my knowledge - this was almost pure old- fashioned mentalism right out of Corrinda.

Do I believe in NLP - no.

[pjh]

Pick a stranger and put them on the spot with a TV camera in their face,hurry them,confuse them and very likely they could forget their stop.Not everytime(indeed Derren admits it doesn't work all the time,and showed some that didn't.)Is that suggestion?
Ahh yes. I can influence a coin to land heads up, it only works half the time but still that's impressive right? Is that suggestion?

Have you seen the trick on one series of Trick of the Mind where he plays Scissors Paper Stone with a football fan,and states from the off what the outcome will be? Thats not a trick in the literal,sleight of hand,sense and relys on psychology and suggestion.
Why isn't it? Do you understand the terms "dual reality" and "instant stooge" as they apply to Derren's work. Derren *cannot* tell when you're lying and Derren cannot influence you into choices in rock/scissors/paper, nor predict which ones you will make.

Most on here ,pjh,know I don't believe in Gellar,Browne or any woo so to accuse me of it shows your ignorance.Read what I write,not what you think I write.
Alright then, do you believe that Derren could rely on psychology and suggestion to win the Rock Scissors Paper World Championships (http://www.rpschamps.com/)? If not why not, what do you think was different about the clip/game you mentioned from his TV series? Are you even open to the 'suggestion' that what you saw was an illusion (for us- the viewers benefit). The illusion being that he *could* predict what the guy was going to do, does not mean that he *actually* did it, and hopefully without labouring the point too much in the same way magicians create the illusion that they saw women in half, Derren *creates the illusion* that he can influence/read the outcome of a RSP game.

[NeilC]

That's mostly true.

Are YOU open to the idea that Derren can, subconsiously, plant the name of a playing card into someone's mind so that when asked to name a card they name it and it is the same as the one they have in their pocket?

[pjh]

The exact nature of stage hypnotism IS debatable as is proven by the many debates that are still ongoing. Some studies show that play acting is a major part. Some indicate a strong suggestive and mild trance state.
No stage hypnotism is not. If you want to believe that at any meaningful level that a person can be hypnotised in 30 seconds to believe their shoe is a pet dog then fine, I'll leave you to your beliefs.

I notice you still haven't answered any of the points made on his stage act which you liked put down to "A sealed envelope" with no further explanation. I believe my explanation to be perfectly possible and quite probable.
I mean how hard is it to believe that once the word is arrived at, an assistant off-stage clips the letters together into a similar envelope and it is switched as part of the routine.

Do I believe in suggestion? Yes. It is proven to work. Advertising uses it.
This is another myth people trot out. If 'suggestion' worked in advertising we'd all be drinking new recipe Coke. 'Suggestion' doesn't have half the power over us as some folks would like to believe.

I've used it in magic effects. Does DB use it? Yes - he does on the lecture videos I have of his and he demonstrated it when I met him and his producer Anthony Owen through a mutual friend. Is it the mainstay of his act? Not really. Did he use it in the stage show? Not to my knowledge - this was almost pure old- fashioned mentalism right out of Corrinda.
And here's the problem, all of Derren's 'suggestion' techniques in his books are ways of providing a subject with information in a subtle manner. There is a convincing argument that the person being deceived about the 'suggestion' is the magician himself.
Do I believe in NLP - no.
Take that up with DJM and his handshake pattern interrupt then.

Are YOU open to the idea that Derren can, subconsiously, plant the name of a playing card into someone's mind so that when asked to name a card they name it and it is the same as the one they have in their pocket?
I've seem the video where Derren demonstrates this and I must say I'm not convinced. The messages are obvious enough for the person to pick up consciously and go along with him 'to be nice'. I'm open to it, but I'm not sure how you could convince me it was suggestion rather than concious cooperation.

At a high certain level obviously suggestion works, I mean the smell of fresh bread may well make me think "I'd like a loaf". At the level of giving me enough information to pick a specific card 'subconsciously' at a success rate high enough to use as a magic trick in front of a live audience? then I'm skeptical.

[NeilC]

"No stage hypnotism is not. If you want to believe that at any meaningful level that a person can be hypnotised in 30 seconds to believe their shoe is a pet dog then fine, I'll leave you to your beliefs."

Yes it is debatable as is the entire nature of hypnosis. But that isn't relevant to the effect you haven't even seen. Play acting would be fine.

"I mean how hard is it to believe that once the word is arrived at, an assistant off-stage clips the letters together into a similar envelope and it is switched as part of the routine."

In the case of that effect, given the placement of the envelope, given the contents of the case, given the video clips of the pretend verbal cues - very, very hard indeed. It was a series of forces. Your answer makes no sense. Watch the show again and I think you will have to agree. The exact method of the force of the "long" word from the paper fragment is well known.

"This is another myth people trot out. If 'suggestion' worked in advertising we'd all be drinking new recipe Coke. 'Suggestion' doesn't have half the power over us as some folks would like to believe."

Depends what you mean by suggestion. Showing well photographed food makes people want to buy it. Showing attractive people with the life-style you want makes people want the product. I'd call that suggestion, maybe you don't.

"And here's the problem, all of Derren's 'suggestion' techniques in his books are ways of providing a subject with information in a subtle manner. There is a convincing argument that the person being deceived about the 'suggestion' is the magician himself."

I don't find it remotely convincing. Whether it's "suggestion" is a moot point. What is a fact is that you can get the info to them without their conscious knowledge. I've tried it. It works. They kind of know "something" is going on but are dumbfounded when the card is revealed. Suggestion, influencing, implanting whatever you want to call it, it's not consious co-operation. Furthermore, with the Jermay effect with the lines on the hand wriggling and my own divination effect outlined in an earlier post - that is pure suggestion. I'm telling the person what to feel and they feel it. It's not much, it's close enough to the truth and it requires the right sort of person but you can influence minor feelings and decisions. The old card count force is a classic example of some social influencing that is subconcious but almost 100% effective.

"I've seem the video where Derren demonstrates this and I must say I'm not convinced. The messages are obvious enough for the person to pick up consciously and go along with him 'to be nice'. I'm open to it, but I'm not sure how you could convince me it was suggestion rather than concious cooperation."

Well maybe you should actually try it and see. It's not cooperation as such. It's not mystical but it feels like it is to the subject. It's leading them - again, I'd call it suggestion but maybe that's the wrong word.

"At a high certain level obviously suggestion works, I mean the smell of fresh bread may well make me think "I'd like a loaf". At the level of giving me enough information to pick a specific card 'subconsciously' at a success rate high enough to use as a magic trick in front of a live audience? then I'm skeptical."

I agree. Which is why he does it one on one where he has a lot of control and on TV specials where all the failures and leadup work can be edited out. On the stage show he reverted to physical mentalism - clip-boards, glimpses, alternative outs, physical forces etc.

[DJM]

Why isn't it? Do you understand the terms "dual reality" and "instant stooge" as they apply to Derren's work. Derren *cannot* tell when you're lying and Derren cannot influence you into choices in rock/scissors/paper, nor predict which ones you will make.

Dude, he doesn't use any stooges in this stuff, get over it. If some football fan that was there would tell the media that Derren had told him in advanced what to do, Derren's career would be over. Do you really think he would risk everything for some rock-scissors-paper game? I love it that you think you have an explanation for everything but say things with no basis.

By the way, I liked it more when he told people how many fingers they were holding up even with their hands in the pockets... oh wait, they probably just told him that on the phone the day before.

I can even see the headlines in the papers all over the UK: Derren Brown caught cheating over a fingers in the pocket game. :rolleyes:

And I have no idea if it's the Handshake Induction that was doing the job, it was just one explanation for that effect that I could think. He chould have done something else entirely to influence him. All I'm saying is I really doubt that the person on the street was playing along, especially when the camera was very far fom there. And like I said, it's too much risky to use stooges while he keeps saying that he would never do that.

[Azrael 5]

No I don't suppose Derren could win RPS championship,but for us uneducated fools maybe you could PM one of us the secret to RPS on Derren's prog? I don't think the guy was an instant stooge,I think he was influenced.I have had slight sucess at the same technique and also at the coin in hand trick using *gasp* body language ,suggestion etc.

I don't think you know what you are talking about really pjh.

Derren *cannot* tell when you're lying and Derren cannot influence you into choices in rock/scissors/paper, nor predict which ones you will make.

I can tell when someone is lying to me ,so why can't Derren?

[Azrael 5]

Dude, he doesn't use any stooges in this stuff, get over it. If some football fan that was there would tell the media that Derren had told him in advanced what to do, Derren's career would be over. Do you really think he would risk everything for some rock-scissors-paper game? I love it that you think you have an explanation for everything but say things with no basis.

By the way, I liked it more when he told people how many fingers they were holding up even with their hands in the pockets... oh wait, they probably just told him that on the phone the day before.

I can even see the headlines in the papers all over the UK: Derren Brown caught cheating over a fingers in the pocket game. :rolleyes:

And I have no idea if it's the Handshake Induction that was doing the job, it was just one explanation for that effect that I could think. He chould have done something else entirely to influence him. All I'm saying is I really doubt that the person on the street was playing along, especially when the camera was very far fom there. And like I said, it's too much risky to use stooges while he keeps saying that he would never do that.

LOL.
Also in his first TV series when he walked a man backwards through a market to locate a hidden picture the man had placed,the man had told the TV crew where to find it who in turn told Derren.Yep,it wasn't muscle reading becasue that isn't real.Probably a stooge.

Isn't that the old adage of magic-either a camera trick or a stooge.The guy on RPS game was thick as two short planks and wouldn't have taken much influencing! :p

[JonWhite]

[quote=Azrael 5;2226086]I would like to have seen his previous tour televised(it was based around spiritualism and seances and was much better)

The spiritualist/seance elements from the second half of that live show were packaged and televised as a one hour special under the title of (and I'm sure you could predict this) "Seance", airing before the actual tour itself took place. It really was much better than "Something Wicked.." Methinks I'll have to hunt for an old VHS of it that's lying around somewhere...

Does Derren use stooges? Personally I'd say not directly. "Dual reality" also called "Invisible compromise" has been mentioned, whereby with clever use of language the subject hears one thing and the audience interprets it differently. The girl onstage being fed the padlock combination right under our noses seemed like a pretty good example.

Regarding the hypnotic debate, as a qualified (but not practising) hypnotherapist who has dabbled in some stage work I believe that subjects perform as they do via a combination of BOTH role playing and suggestibility with the ratio varying according to the individual. On a couple of occasions I have encountered that very rare person that would act in a hypnotised way - forgetting their name, being unable to move, etc - with only the briefest of inductions (most people require a great deal more preparation). Is it genuine? From the stage hypnotists perspective then who cares as long as the audience percieve the subjects to be behaving according to their hypnotic "will". Subjects working with such high profile performers as Derren or Paul Mckenna have already been in essence been pre-conditioned with both the expectation and belief in their wondrous hypnotic abilities, which is immediately half the battle won.

[Azrael 5]

[quote=Azrael 5;2226086]I would like to have seen his previous tour televised(it was based around spiritualism and seances and was much better)

The spiritualist/seance elements from the second half of that live show were packaged and televised as a one hour special under the title of (and I'm sure you could predict this) "Seance", airing before the actual tour itself took place. It really was much better than "Something Wicked.." Methinks I'll have to hunt for an old VHS of it that's lying around somewhere...

Does Derren use stooges? Personally I'd say not directly. "Dual reality" also called "Invisible compromise" has been mentioned, whereby with clever use of language the subject hears one thing and the audience interprets it differently. The girl onstage being fed the padlock combination right under our noses seemed like a pretty good example.

Regarding the hypnotic debate, as a qualified (but not practising) hypnotherapist who has dabbled in some stage work I believe that subjects perform as they do via a combination of BOTH role playing and suggestibility with the ratio varying according to the individual. On a couple of occasions I have encountered that very rare person that would act in a hypnotised way - forgetting their name, being unable to move, etc - with only the briefest of inductions (most people require a great deal more preparation). Is it genuine? From the stage hypnotists perspective then who cares as long as the audience percieve the subjects to be behaving according to their hypnotic "will". Subjects working with such high profile performers as Derren or Paul Mckenna have already been in essence been pre-conditioned with both the expectation and belief in their wondrous hypnotic abilities, which is immediately half the battle won.

I have Seance,thanks.
The combination lock I think was a magic prop and whatever numbers she came up with on stage would have worked,once Derren had "adjusted" it! ;)

[pjh]

I don't think you know what you are talking about really pjh.
And I think you're gullible and easily fooled, let's leave it at that shall we?
I can tell when someone is lying to me ,so why can't Derren?
Despite bizarre claims like yours, it is in fact *not* that easy to tell when people are lying. Are you suggesting that we could replace much of our criminal justice system with infallible lie detectors like yourself? Or maybe now you're going to tell me that your power to detect lies doesn't quite work all them time, similar in fact to my power to influence a coin to come up heads.

Dude, he doesn't use any stooges in this stuff, get over it.
I certainly am not saying he uses stooges. An "instant stooge" is not a stooge in that sense.

[JonWhite]

Ha Ha. The lock as a prop? Even better!! Dammit, even I'm falling for his psychobabble!!!

[Azrael 5]

And I think you're gullible and easily fooled, let's leave it at that shall we?

Despite bizarre claims like yours, it is in fact *not* that easy to tell when people are lying. Are you suggesting that we could replace much of our criminal justice system with infallible lie detectors like yourself? Or maybe now you're going to tell me that your power to detect lies doesn't quite work all them time, similar in fact to my power to influence a coin to come up heads.


I certainly am not saying he uses stooges. An "instant stooge" is not a stooge in that sense.

All my responses refer to Derren brown's act,okay? Not life.:rolleyes:
You get someone on stage from the audience,they are nervous,maybe intidimated and so their actions are heightened and they give off visible signs.
I am certainly not gullible,nor easily fooled.So let's not leave it;let's carry on with your wealth of knowledge about Derren Brown's act and magic in general.:cool:

[DJM]

I certainly am not saying he uses stooges. An "instant stooge" is not a stooge in that sense.

This is what I really don't get. You keep giving explanations about instant stooges and stuff like that, but you don't even say what you mean about that.

I have no idea how he can have an instant stooge at the rock scissors paper or hands in pockets game, when there are so many people around him. From what I know an instant stooge is someone who gets the info at the spot. How does it work in this case? How does the person know which move to make? And why do you call it an instant stooge instead of a regular one?

I'd really like to hear your thoughts about that, instead of just vague speculations. And it's not breaking the rules of the forum, because it's just a theory and not the known secret.


And about the lock, I thought it was pretty obvious since he was holding the suitcase for a few seconds at the end. ;)

[Garrette]

Without going into detail, DJM (particularly since I have not since this show yet), instant stooges can be created instantly, sometimes with as little as a wink or an unobservable squeeze on the shoulder.

[DJM]

Well I just watched that part again and I can't see any obvious signals, and also there's a big crowd around to notice stuff like that. Of course they could have planned everything in advanced, but I guess that would already make it a regular stooge..

In my opinion I don't see any difference between an instant stooge and a regular one, and Derren clearly says that he doesn't use any of that. There's dual reality which works for both the crowd and the participant, but it's clearly not the case here.

[Azrael 5]

Yes I think Garette is right.But I also don't think the RPS lad was a stooge of any description.

[brodski]

Could I also have the PM please.

Sent.

And I've just spoken to my friend about her experience with DB, and yes the show was Séance (as some of you guessed) and she confirmed my recollection of her version of the events I put in the PM.

[Garrette]

Well I just watched that part again and I can't see any obvious signals,I hope not; he wouldn't be much of a magician if you did.

and also there's a big crowd around to notice stuff like that. You don't think magicians can get away with applying pressure with a hand already resting on a shoulder without a crowd noticing?

(There are myriad other ways, so if DB's hand isn't on anyone's shoulder it doesn't change the point.)

Of course they could have planned everything in advanced, but I guess that would already make it a regular stooge..Yes.

In my opinion I don't see any difference between an instant stooge and a regular one,I do, though I also see a difference between an instant stooge and someone who is not a stooge at all.

and Derren clearly says that he doesn't use any of that. Does he? Or does he leave wiggle room in how he words it? Or does he say all of this while "in show mode" therefore making it all suspect?

As I said, I haven't seen the show yet, so I have no idea how he's done anything, so I'm not suggesting he uses stooges at all, pre-planned or instant. But your dismissals don't hold up.

There's dual reality which works for both the crowd and the participant, but it's clearly not the case here.Clearly? I'm not a master magician, but I know quite a bit about methods and I have seen some great ones at work. What you think is clearly impossible and what actually is impossible are not necessarily the same thing.

[DJM]

Here's a clip of that, it's around the end:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TsJ0IYQpWwA&mode=related&search=

As you can see he plays with several different people, so I doubt they were all in it.

[firecoins]

This argument has been done to death with regards to Mr Brown.

Let's say Copperfield at the end of his show "showed" how it was done, and this involved super powerful magnets and a special anti-gravity device from a Russian physicist. Look I wasn't "really flying", it was this new mag-lev technology - very hush hush.

Let's also say that a substantial proportion of the audience believes that explanation at face value, and it contributes to the overall 'woo-ishness' out there regarding anti-grav. You (and others) have argued that this is fair play for magicians, their job is to deceive, and their audience enters a pact that allows for this.

I on the other hand think that this just adds to the overall level of dumb beliefs and is counter-productive. I just want to be able to stand up and say, "Yes enjoy the magician, but his explanations are just more misdirection."


If he used any 'forces' he was doing it the hard way. What exactly do you think was forced, and why do you think that he would do it any other way than the traditional 'sealed envelope' methods, which are simpler, produce the same effect and are 100% successful.
THis argument that Derren Brown is a magician and does what magicians do is a valid argument because He IS a magician and IT IS what magicians do. Yet most people don't believe magicians have supernatural powers. People believe Derren has powers because they want to believe he has powers.

[Garrette]

Here's a clip of that, it's around the end:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TsJ0IYQpWwA&mode=related&search=

As you can see he plays with several different people, so I doubt they were all in it.Thanks. That helps.

Watch the bit about the lady in the underground. Look for the camera cuts and the varying crowd. In one cut he goes from several people up close to no one around.

For the girls in the bar: Pre-show by the nature of the effect and buttressed by the observation that all the girls immediately respond when one of their thoughts is exposed, indicating they already knew that DB was right.

For the rock, paper, scissors: Initially he was simply waiting. For the back-turned bit I have another hypothesis but am unsure of it.

[pjh]

Here's a clip of that, it's around the end:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TsJ0IYQpWwA&mode=related&search=

As you can see he plays with several different people, so I doubt they were all in it.
In every game, the spec 'plays' what Derren played in the last round.

Also it's worth noting that there may well be common normal patterns that people follow when playing this game, but even if there's not winning is a 50/50 chance, so 3 in a row is only 1/8. It's well known that people prefer particular cards when asked, possibly a quick study of choices on RSP on novices would reveal preferences there.

It's hard to know how many failed attempts are thrown away and not shown, but even if you discount the fact that the spec plays Derren's previous choice each hand, it wouldn't take much filming to put together the sequence there.

[DJM]

This video is very cool:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MOfUcg-y1FE

I think I managed to figure the connections between some of the words used. Also the feedback on the page give some interesting opinions about how the drawing thing works.. I can't think of a magic trick to achive all of this, can you?

[Garrette]

In every game, the spec 'plays' what Derren played in the last round. I'm ashamed I missed that.

[Garrette]

I can't think of a magic trick to achive all of this, can you?The whole point is that this is a useless question. It doesn't matter if you, I, or everyone on this board can't think of a magic trick to achieve something. That would not mean it's not a magic trick.

I know how to do this trick:

I show up at a place of your choosing. You have a stack of telephone books that you obtained and have guarded. You pick one of the telephone books randomly (for effect, it's best if it's a thick one, but it's not necessary). It's placed on a podium in full view of the audience.

You pick someone you know is not a stooge. They person opens the book to ANY page. They pick ANY phone number on that page.

It is shown to match my prediction, in a sealed envelope that you have been keeping in your own pocket since before we started, and you open it yourself and read the number yourself.

I could dress it up with the appearance of suggestibility and psychological influence, but it's not necessary.

It looks impossible. It feels impossible. It is clearly impossible.

But it's not impossible.

If you want to know how, then buy Barrie Richardson's Theatre of the Mind.

[pjh]

This video is very cool:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MOfUcg-y1FE

I think I managed to figure the connections between some of the words used. Also the feedback on the page give some interesting opinions about how the drawing thing works.. I can't think of a magic trick to achive all of this, can you?

Look, this forum explicitly forbids the revealing of the secrets used by magicians. This is not a game where you post a link to a youtube of a DB effect and ask people to explain it to you.

Are you still convinced about Derren's powers of suggestion, and do you have any other comments of the first clip (Rock Scissors Paper)?

[DJM]

Look, this forum explicitly forbids the revealing of the secrets used by magicians. This is not a game where you post a link to a youtube of a DB effect and ask people to explain it to you.

Are you still convinced about Derren's powers of suggestion, and do you have any other comments of the first clip (Rock Scissors Paper)?

I wasn't trying to find any secrets about anything, was just wondering if there was some trick behind it instead of a real phsyology thing. He says at the beginning that he's going include some magic in it, so was interested to know if there was also something more than that. Isn't that the whole theme of this thread? I thought this video would be a cool thing to discuss, and it's clearly related to what we've been talking about. There's no need to be rude about it.

And yes, I do think there's power of suggestion, but the rock scissors paper isn't a good example for it, as it could always be luck or edits. I've seen Derren do stuff much more impressive than that.

Garrette, does the person need to know anything about the effect for it work? He seems pretty impressed at the end.

[andyandy]

Look, this forum explicitly forbids the revealing of the secrets used by magicians. This is not a game where you post a link to a youtube of a DB effect and ask people to explain it to you.




Are you determined to misrepresent everyone's posts? It just makes it seem as though you have some pretty basic English comprehension problems.....:rolleyes:

Build a strawman! Tear it down! Oh yeah. That feels good.....I'll do it some more. :)

[Garrette]

Garrette, does the person need to know anything about the effect for it work? He seems pretty impressed at the end.If you're talking about your last link, I don't know. Haven't watched it yet. (Actually, I began to, but I don't have audio on the computer I'm at, so stopped).

But this seems close to asking about method.

[tkingdoll]

The whole point is that this is a useless question. It doesn't matter if you, I, or everyone on this board can't think of a magic trick to achieve something. That would not mean it's not a magic trick.

I know how to do this trick:

I show up at a place of your choosing. You have a stack of telephone books that you obtained and have guarded. You pick one of the telephone books randomly (for effect, it's best if it's a thick one, but it's not necessary). It's placed on a podium in full view of the audience.

You pick someone you know is not a stooge. They person opens the book to ANY page. They pick ANY phone number on that page.

It is shown to match my prediction, in a sealed envelope that you have been keeping in your own pocket since before we started, and you open it yourself and read the number yourself.

I could dress it up with the appearance of suggestibility and psychological influence, but it's not necessary.

It looks impossible. It feels impossible. It is clearly impossible.

But it's not impossible.

If you want to know how, then buy Barrie Richardson's Theatre of the Mind.

Derren does this trick at his live shows, and dresses it up by claiming to have memorised the phone book before the show by speed memory methods.

[Garrette]

Derren does this trick at his live shows, and dresses it up by claiming to have memorised the phone book before the show by speed memory methods.Which goes to show I'm just as good as Derren Brown, right? Right? Please say right...

Which really goes to show it's not what you know but what you do with it.

[tkingdoll]

Which goes to show I'm just as good as Derren Brown, right? Right? Please say right...

Which really goes to show it's not what you know but what you do with it.

But are you as handsome?

[Garrette]

But are you as handsome?If you have a skepdudes calendar you may judge for yourself...

[tkingdoll]

Derren's in the skepdude calendar??!!

Kidding. I get mine at TAM, I'll scrutinise it well and let you know how you rank on the TK Hot List.

[Garrette]

Derren's in the skepdude calendar??!!

Kidding. I get mine at TAM, I'll scrutinise it well and let you know how you rank on the TK Hot List.I'm all aquiver.











No, really, I am.












Make it stop.

[DJM]

Which goes to show I'm just as good as Derren Brown, right? Right? Please say right...
Which really goes to show it's not what you know but what you do with it.

Well it's pretty different than the video I posted. Feel free to post your thoughts about it if you get the chance to view it.

And I was very impressed about the phonebook routine. It only goes to show that sometimes it's much better not to know the secret behind some things.

By the way, for us you are even better than him. ;)

[Garrette]

If I get a chance to view it, I'll let you know, DJM

Now I'm blushin'

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

[quote=JonWhite;2230823]

I have Seance,thanks.
The combination lock I think was a magic prop and whatever numbers she came up with on stage would have worked,once Derren had "adjusted" it! ;)

The lock was definately a prop, I saw him go back to the case once it was on stage and put his hand on the lock. No reason for him to do that unless he was manipulating it. :rolleyes:

[Azrael 5]

[quote=Azrael 5;2230844]

The lock was definately a prop, I saw him go back to the case once it was on stage and put his hand on the lock. No reason for him to do that unless he was manipulating it. :rolleyes:

I had to read this three times before I understod the inference.
Are you saying I'm wrong? If so do you wish to put money on it? :cool:

[pjh]

Have you seen the trick on one series of Trick of the Mind where he plays Scissors Paper Stone with a football fan,and states from the off what the outcome will be? Thats not a trick in the literal,sleight of hand,sense and relys on psychology and suggestion.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TsJ0IYQpWwA&mode=related&search

So now we've looked at the video are you still clinging to your claim or are you open to any suggestion that what you saw is not psychology and suggestion but a form of trick performed by Derren Brown.

[Azrael 5]

Look, this forum explicitly forbids the revealing of the secrets used by magicians. This is not a game where you post a link to a youtube of a DB effect and ask people to explain it to you.

Are you still convinced about Derren's powers of suggestion, and do you have any other comments of the first clip (Rock Scissors Paper)?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TsJ0IYQpW...related&search (http://youtube.com/watch?v=TsJ0IYQpWwA&mode=related&search)

So now we've looked at the video are you still clinging to your claim or are you open to any suggestion that what you saw is not psychology and suggestion but a form of trick performed by Derren Brown.

Read your initial comments.Are we discussing secrets or not? :rolleyes:

[pjh]

Read your initial comments.Are we discussing secrets or not? :rolleyes:

Ahh yes, after you "exposing" how a trick was done, you now want this rule to apply.

Notice I'm not asking you *how* it was really done, because quite frankly I'm sure you don't know, I'm just asking if you remain convinced that it was done in the manner you've already posted in this thread (suggestion and psychology). I fail to see how in doing that you expose any more of the trick, by giving a yes/no answer to that question.

And if I start posting clips of DB in forum and ask how they're done then please feel free to chastise me.

:rolleyes:

[DJM]

I have no idea how he does this thing, as well as almost all other stuff that he does. Most likely that no one can know for sure, we can always just have some theories what he could be using.

And I don't even see why he would need a trick in this game, there are thousands of experts that can win it most of the time. The whole thing is about reading other people's reactions and trying to figure out what the next move could be. It's a game that involves some strategy, not only guessing. They don't have championships of that for nothing.

And stop being sarcastic of me posting those videos, it's not nice.

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

[quote=FarSideOfTheMoon;2231671]

I had to read this three times before I understod the inference.
Are you saying I'm wrong? If so do you wish to put money on it? :cool:

You've noted an inference I didn't mean to make ... so sorry for that.

I shouldn't have made that post, it's close to the wind with revealing secrets I guess. But when you watch something so obvious, is it a 'secret'?

[Azrael 5]

[quote=Azrael 5;2231859]

You've noted an inference I didn't mean to make ... so sorry for that.

I shouldn't have made that post, it's close to the wind with revealing secrets I guess. But when you watch something so obvious, is it a 'secret'?

Cool.
Maybe I shouldn't have made my point about the padlock-although it was tongue in cheek,I didn't "expose the trick" pjh.
Regards the RPS clip,I don't quite understand.How is it a "trick"?

[DJM]

Regards the RPS clip,I don't quite understand.How is it a "trick"?

Didn't you already realize that everything Derren ever does is either tricks or stooges? There's really nothing else.

I heard that even when he goes to the bathroom he has a magic prop to help him out with that. :eek:

[pjh]

Regards the RPS clip,I don't quite understand.How is it a "trick"?
It's a trick in that what you are seeing is an illusion, what you think is really happening is not - hence it's a trick - you know the things magicians do?

Didn't you already realize that everything Derren ever does is either tricks or stooges? There's really nothing else.
Half right (he doesn't use stooges). What else would you expect from a magician? HE DOES TRICKS! - get over it.

[DJM]

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand you..

It's not even a magic effect, it's just a simple game that's being played all over the world by millions of people. Why would he need to trick something like this? It's not like he's taking someone's finger and cuts them in half. It's just a game that involves some kind of stratedy.

if there was a way to use tricks in this game, then everyone would win the RPS championships by trickery, since you make it seem like a simple thing.

How is it even possible to use in a trick in a game like this? Is there any kind of basis in your claims or just throw things in the air? :confused:

[pjh]

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand you..

It's not even a magic effect, it's just a simple game that's being played all over the world by millions of people. Why would he need to trick something like this? It's not like he's taking someone's finger and cuts them in half. It's just a game that involves some kind of stratedy.
Look - I can't say it any simpler than this - IT'S AN ILLUSION. He makes you (and the audience) believe he can win consistently at RSP, but this doesn't mean he actually can (or does). As long as he's created the illusion that he can do it, then he's done his job AS A MAGICIAN.

if there was a way to use tricks in this game, then everyone would win the RPS championships by trickery, since you make it seem like a simple thing.
Yes. There are trick ways to bend a spoon and make it look like you are doing it using ESP. These tricks won't work under controlled conditions. Derren's illusion here would not allow him to win at RSP in a championship.

How is it even possible to use in a trick in a game like this? Is there any kind of basis in your claims or just throw things in the air? :confused:

There have been a number of trivial solutions already provided :

- Derren is delaying his choice until after the spec has made theirs.
- Derren has convinced them to play a strategy he knows he can beat (Notice they always play what Derren played in the last round).
- Derren filmed a lot of these and showed the ones he won

There are other possibilities. It's extremely arrogant of you to suggest that just because you can't think of a way to make a trick happen, then there's no way it's a trick? Are you saying that it's impossible for you to be tricked by a magician, and that you can figure out every magic trick by looking at them?

I'm sorry you got taken in and believed Derren's psychological explanations. This is why I think Derren is doing something wrong, people like you end up believing what they're seeing isn't magic. Then people just a little bit more gullible than you start spending money on body language books and attending NLP courses.

You need to get over it, Derren is a magician, he does tricks. It really is that simple. His psychological explanations are another form of misdirection.

[DJM]

I think you should stop misreading people's posts and then call them arrogant, and "people like you". I never once claimed that it couldn't be a trick, just that I can't see how it's done. That's why I was interested to hear your theories about it. I know Derren is a magican and I know that most of the times uses tricks, I've been saying that all along. But I do think that at some cases he might not need to use tricks to achive the effect. I have no idea if it's true, I can only guess about it!

It's really annoying me that all through this thread you've been misreading my posts and read whatever you want to read, and then call me arrogant. I never said I know anything about how does his things, I can only have theories about it and ask others for their own.

At least I don't say that I'm 100% right about everything and always look for some other people's opions about it. Unlike what you do, which is saying "I'm always 100% right and I can't be wrong about anything!" Now, that's arrogant, and even a bit childish.

[DJM]

And as for your theories: (by the way, didn't you say at first that they are all instant stooges?)

- Derren is delaying his choice until after the spec has made theirs.

I don't remember seeing that so he could have only waited for no more than half a second so it won't be obvious. If that's the case, then it's still very very impressive to see someone else's movement in that short time, you need a fast instinct for that. I don't think it's much of a trick but some kind of strategy in the game. And I doubt a lot of people can have an instinct like this. Very impressive in my oipion, even if maybe it doesn't follow the "official rules" of the game.

- Derren has convinced them to play a strategy he knows he can beat (Notice they always play what Derren played in the last round).

Just like you said, a strategy! That's what I was saying! It's still very clever to know just how it works and imagine what someone else is thinking at the moment. I won't be surprised if a lot of RPS players use ideas close to that.

- Derren filmed a lot of these and showed the ones he won

I already said that was an option, but from the people's reaction I don't think he used much of that. But I guess no one can know for sure unless they were there.

If anyone has any more theories about this, I would be interested to hear. And maybe I could learn some tips as I usually suck at this game. :(

[Azrael 5]

So its seems pjh knows everything!

It's all editing and stooges and camera tricks.You are a joke man.None of us are gullible,we know he is a magician.
You seem to think he uses no suggestion/psychology whatsoever,I disagree.So in keeping with the core belief of this forum-show some evidence(along with your membership of Magic Circle natch.)

[pjh]

So its seems pjh knows everything!

It's all editing and stooges and camera tricks.You are a joke man.None of us are gullible,we know he is a magician.
You seem to think he uses no suggestion/psychology whatsoever,I disagree.So in keeping with the core belief of this forum-show some evidence(along with your membership of Magic Circle natch.)
What evidence have you got that Geller never bent a spoon with his mind?

Derren is a magician, I don't think he uses stooges (where have I said that he does?), I therefore believe (until someone provides evidence to the contrary) that he uses the standard techniques of magicians the world over to achieve his effects.

You're the one making a claim (Some of Derren's effects are done purely using suggestion/psychology), what evidence do you have to back it up.

Do you still think that the RSP sequence is pure psychology/suggestion as you claimed earlier in this thread?

[Azrael 5]

Do you still think that the RSP sequence is pure psychology/suggestion as you claimed earlier in this thread?

Its certainly not a "magic trick" in the sense of the phrase,there seems to be some persuasion involved,yes.Of course Derren uses magic principles the smae as anyone else,but there effects that combine those with psychology.Why not?

[DJM]

Derren is a magician, I don't think he uses stooges (where have I said that he does?), I therefore believe (until someone provides evidence to the contrary) that he uses the standard techniques of magicians the world over to achieve his effects.?

Why do you even consider RPS as something magical? You need to be a magician to be good at it? It's not like he was doing something that is impossible to explain. There are so many others who are good in the strategies of this game, so why not him as well? It's not just about guesses, there are a lot of other stuff behind it.

It looks like you insist so much that he always uses tricks, that you don't even care that we are talking here about a simple game, not magic! He could be using some strategies to win, like many other players, but I wouldn't call it tricks.

Now, if the football fan was holding real scissors rather than his fingers, then that would be a trick, and a very cool one at that!

[firecoins]

What evidence have you got that Geller never bent a spoon with his mind?

Derren is a magician, I don't think he uses stooges (where have I said that he does?), I therefore believe (until someone provides evidence to the contrary) that he uses the standard techniques of magicians the world over to achieve his effects.

You're the one making a claim (Some of Derren's effects are done purely using suggestion/psychology), what evidence do you have to back it up.

Do you still think that the RSP sequence is pure psychology/suggestion as you claimed earlier in this thread?

Geller has to prove he has used his mind to bend spoons and not the other way around. Since simplier sleight of hand methods exist that create the illusion, this more likely the method over the unprovable mind method. Watch Geller get busted by Johnny Carson on the Tonight Show.
http://windycitymike.com/2006/07/28/uri-geller-busted-on-carsons-tonight-show/

As a magician I can attest that using stooges is a standard method. David Blaine and Cruss Angle have used the method on their tv show.

Magicans, good ones, use psychology and are considered experts in psychology in the context of performing magic effects. Derren Brown uses the same psychology as other magicians and mentalists use.

[pjh]

Its certainly not a "magic trick" in the sense of the phrase,there seems to be some persuasion involved,yes.Of course Derren uses magic principles the smae as anyone else,but there effects that combine those with psychology.Why not?

Fine, we'll agree to disagree.

I am certain that Derren cannot consistently win a fair RSP against anyone, and what we see in that clip is an illusion.

I'd bet £1,000 that Derren can't beat me in RSP :)
http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html

[DJM]

That article is such a bunch of rubbish. Derren has said so many times that he's mostly a magician.

And I'm so sure Simon knows all the secrets to all the tricks Derren has ever done, he even performs them. :rolleyes:

[Ralfy]

Brodski,
Can you send me the PM please.

Ralfy

[Garrette]

I think people are talking past each other in reference to whether Rock-Paper-Scissors is a magic trick here, or at least ignoring that there can be a gray area of whether or not something is a trick.

I can certainly see where RPS can be a trick, I think it is in this environment. Whether the trick uses delay tactics, a subtly-proffered-yet-defeatable strategy, stooges, multiple filmings, or something else, I have no idea, but it is a trick nonetheless.

If I were performing a stage mentalism show, and for five minutes in the middle of it I did an I-never-lose-at-RPS-because-of-my-mind-powers schtick, it would certainly be a trick. The fact that DB does it on the street doesn't change that.

And the point about controlled conditions is a good one. I agree that DB could not win an RPS championship (or at least has no more chance of winning it than any other student of the art). The thing about magic tricks is not just that they are performed under controlled conditions, but they are performed under controlled conditions which do not appear to be controlled.

That's what DB does. It's what any competent magician does.

[Garrette]

To clarify my last post: When I say that magic tricks are performed under controlled conditions, I mean conditions controlled by the magician. Performing under conditions controlled by a knowledgeable third party intent on removing possibilities for skullduggery is not wise.

[Monkey Napoleon]

Derren Brown has published a massive amount of the basic effects behind his tricks on the internet in e-text form.

[pjh]

Derren Brown has published a massive amount of the basic effects behind his tricks on the internet in e-text form.
I know your new user status may impede this slightly but you could attempt to back up that statement with a link to where Derren published a 'massive amount' of his basic effects on the internet.

[DJM]

These are all fake things that people put under his name. I remember he said that he has someone to help him remove things like that from Ebay and other sites.

[firecoins]

Absoulute Magic and Pure Effect are his 2 books for magicians. I have Pure Effect.

Devil's Picturebook is a dvd on card magic exclusively available from the magician's side of his website.

[NeilC]

There is a lot of fake DB stuff out there but having said that, a lot of it is actually quite accurate in method. You can download it from P2P networks.

Re: RSP - I have to agree with PJH that it is probably (i'd say 90%+) not what it seems. The DB team take what I would call some pretty big liberties with the TV shows, editing out all sorts of things making working out the trick from the effect impossible sometimes. He's done effects that I KNOW the working of but the actual work/move/sleight has been cut out completely. I don't mind that but some of the bigger effects are not what is shown at all. I remember he did a mind-reading effect on some morning TV show and as the music/credits started I just caught the subject (a presenter) saying something like "amazing, that was what I wrote down earlier"....but on TV you saw nothing written down.

Quite how the RSP effect is done I don't know but I wouldn't rule out anything. One possible solution might be that he has told them to try to outguess him and then proceeds to make it completely simple and then throws the viewer off with some verbals. It's possible he has worked out a good guessing method or some influencing which is used in combination with more mundane stuff to throw a single explanation off. I've not seen enough of it to comment.

I've never got to the bottom of his famous £1 coin effect - that one baffles me. I'm sure I will be dissappointed when I find out.

[Garrette]

I have both Absolute Magic and Pure Effect and enjoyed them but thought that they were ultimately disappointing from a technical standpoint.

From the standpoint of learning how DB view the magic profession and how he approaches his shows, they're great.

Didn't know about Devil's Picturebook. Now I have to decide if it's worth a purchase.

[NeilC]

If you like card magic then it's a great buy. I mean, his card magic is SUPERB - better than most card magicians I've seen. Some good sleight of hand, great misdirection and even bettern routining/presentation.

The mental card stuff is quite interesting too. I've performed a couple of the effects myself just to see how the go down and they produce complete astonishment.

One effect which I love doing is where he gets a deck of cards and someone shuffles it. Another person selects a card and remembers it and returns it. They are shuffled. The first person deals the cards down one at a time whilst DB/you go through a lie-detecting/guessing routine where you come up with the right card. When you get it you shout STOP and person who has been dealing cards all this time turns over the card they happen to have in their hand...and it's the chosen card. It's all about dressing up and hamming up a facile effect and removing the one possible explanation which produces a total mind boggler.

[Garrette]

Thanks, Splossy; I may now get it.

[firecoins]

If you like card magic then it's a great buy. I mean, his card magic is SUPERB - better than most card magicians I've seen.
My argument with this is he is a card magician. While he in known as a mentalist his career started out as a card magician.

[Azrael 5]

Thanks, Splossy; I may now get it.

You remember that bonus I mentioned in my PM?
..................;)

[Garrette]

You remember that bonus I mentioned in my PM?
..................;)Oh, my. That may be worth three beers. Even real, non-stereotypical, non-lite beers.

[trader08]

Hi All,

I recently saw the new Derren Brown special and I've been a fan of his for the past months (searched and watched basically anything and everything that had him in it).

First I thought his stuff was very original and if for nothing more he's doing stuff that's not "JUST" magic. What I mean is the Seance stuff and the semi-debunking of fortune tellers. I find that stuff very interesting because I've always believed there is no such thing as fortune telling, spiritual healers, Feng Shui, etc. It's great to see some guy on TV show you how they can perform these miracles and tell you it's all a hoax and that he has no more special power than the average joe, he just has more information. Very comforting to say the least.

The problem I've found is that with all cons, you can never be sure of where the truth ends and the lies begin. And I must say I wanted to believe in his NLP abilities as I've only recently been introduced to this field and wanted to learn and cultivate this ability. Unfortunately the degrees of NLP/suggestion powers that he seems to be advocating have been so impressive that I had to figure out exactly how much is really NLP/Suggestion and how much is showmanship. For example, can you really make someone not move their legs just by touching them? Can you really make someone fall asleep just by listening to a phone message? Can you really make someone totally forget what they wrote down on a piece of paper of what they wanted for their birthday and implant the notion that a RED BMX bike is what they wrote and want?

For me, I would have said "NO" to the first two since it just doesn't seem logical. But the last one, this ability of hiding double meanings and thus feeding the subconscious is a very interesting idea that I'd like to think is possible. Question is, is it possible to his RED BMX degree? I simply don't know. What I do know is that he's advocating that it is possible in the show "The Heist" and reinforces this theory again in his recent show with the number "14" and "Daily Mail" fiasco.

I've read the arguments that alot of the stuff he did were magic tricks, such as the lock is probably a trick lock, and the picking of 7 piece by the girl was really a force (maybe the wrong affect I'm describing) seen in many card tricks, since she said 7 but he actually took the 8th piece of paper and handed that to the girl to find the word influence.

Man that was a long babel about nothing. Here's the question:

How much influence does NLP/Suggestion really have on the results he gets in his shows? or are they really 90% magic tricks?

I would have said about 50%+ of his results were achieved through NLP/Suggestion but after reading this thread, I'm starting to question if that's way too high.

[Azrael 5]

pjh in this thread,would disagree but I would say 10% maybe less is suggestion/psychology.as for things you mentioned like falling asleep aftera phone call and the BMX bike trick,as it's on TV it's hard to know.But I doubt those were done in the way they appeared.

[Garrette]

I'm with Azrael. I don't know how to do everything he does, but I know enough to strongly indicate that it is almost entirely standard magic.

[sat556]

With regard to the 'force' type tricks, I find these fascinating. I have been doing some myself of late with varied success. Does if follow though, that if you can (for example) force somebody to pick a certain card simply by suggesting it to them, that you can then take this much further, even to the degree of Heist?

[trader08]

I'd like to take my question a little bit further and ask why people like pjh and splossy think that body language and NLP are made up?


I'm sorry you got taken in and believed Derren's psychological explanations. This is why I think Derren is doing something wrong, people like you end up believing what they're seeing isn't magic. Then people just a little bit more gullible than you start spending money on body language books and attending NLP courses.



Do I believe in NLP - no.


I must say I am one of the gullible ones that thought NLP and body language does exist. Am I the lone ranger in these forums? is there something Splossy and pjh know that I don't?

It would be appreciated if they can elaborate on why they feel these things are make belief.

Personally I've seen a couple of videos on both topics and think they're very real and appliable (hmm.. not a word apparently). Therefore I would love to hear some counter arguments towards the NLP and body language subject.

Thanks.

[pjh]

It's been a fraught debate, caught up in language. I'd like to say that 0% of Derren's effects use suggestion/psychology, but then someone will say that *all* magic is psychology and suggestion.

So if you're from the UK, I'd say that Derren uses no more psychology than Paul Daniels.

I'd like to take my question a little bit further and ask why people like pjh and splossy think that body language and NLP are made up?
What makes you think that it's real?

In relation to Derren (and other magicians), please don't take anything he does as evidence for anything. If you want to find out how possible it is to read body language and detect liars, then look for evidence in the real world.

For example if it was possible (and provable) to reliably detect liars and lies then our criminal justice system would be dramatically different.

So take an effect that Derren does, forget his explanation - and try and find evidence that other people can reliably do it under controlled conditions. If no one else does and Derren is a magician (and admits he's tricking you) then the default position is that he's not really doing it - you're watching an illusion.

[Jekyll]

So if you're from the UK, I'd say that Derren uses no more psychology than Paul Daniels.

I don't think this is quite right, a lot of the effects he does, are just conventional magic, but some of them such as holding someone's arm and letting them guide you to a hidden object or making someone electrocute someone else until they appear to fit and pass out are old carnival tricks or from existing psychological literature and just work without the need for further trickery.

The fun for me is in trying to work out where that line lies in his shows.

[Azrael 5]

I don't think this is quite right, a lot of the effects he does, are just conventional magic, but some of them such as holding someone's arm and letting them guide you to a hidden object or making someone electrocute someone else until they appear to fit and pass out are old carnival tricks or from existing psychological literature and just work without the need for further trickery.

The fun for me is in trying to work out where that line lies in his shows.

Exactly my sentiments.pjh you cannot stae-without proof-that none of his effects use psychology/suggestion,as Jekyll pointed out the walking a man thru a market to a hidden photograph with merely a touch is psychology.Some effects such as his blair witch type effect(where a girl in dark woods feels something touch her)involves putting the person in a suggestible state to enhance the trick.

That's two effects right there pjh.Your comments?

[trader08]

It's been a fraught debate, caught up in language. I'd like to say that 0% of Derren's effects use suggestion/psychology, but then someone will say that *all* magic is psychology and suggestion.


Wow, if that were true I would definitely be disappointed. May I ask which shows you've watched that have caused you to come to this conclusion?

Is hypnosis not a form of suggestion? or are you suggesting that hypnosis in your books is ruled under the "magic" category? Derren Brown does alot of hypnosis in his shows, such as making someone fall asleep, are you suggesting such tricks fall under the magic category or is it just a stooge pretending to fall asleep?

Personally, if the person was a stooge than Derren Brown is unfairly representing himself as he specifically states at the beginning of the show that he does "NOT" use stooges in his show. Therefore, assuming he's not lying and the person really did fall asleep, then if it's not hypnosis, what would you call it.



What makes you think that it's real (referring to NLP/suggestion)?

In relation to Derren (and other magicians), please don't take anything he does as evidence for anything. If you want to find out how possible it is to read body language and detect liars, then look for evidence in the real world.

For example if it was possible (and provable) to reliably detect liars and lies then our criminal justice system would be dramatically different.


I see, personally I don't think I have any delusions that Derren Brown can detect "All" lies. That he can sit across a table to any of the poker champions in a poker game and use his powers to achieve a 100% accuracy of when a bluff is on. That would be some feat indeed.

Having said that, I don't believe that NLP/Suggestion makes such a statement either. To me NLP/Suggestion is kind of like the lie detector (polygraph machine), if a person is conditioned with the ability to cheat it, they "CAN" beat it. However for the avg joe, the lie detector does indeed work and equally for the average joe, NLP/Suggestion does work on them.

NLP/Suggestion is no magic pill where if you utilize it, you can make a person do what you want them to do all the time. That's not the case at all. I feel what it does is it pushes the person towards a certain conclusion, like how a good salesman will have a higher conversion rate because of not what he says, but how he says it.

NLP is the packaging of thought transfer. You can package a DVD in a plain plastic case with the normal cover on it, or you can do a "Limited" edition one like the nice "Lord of the Ring" DVD box, formatting it to resemble a book. To someone who doesn't like the movie, it will probably not matter, but the ones that like the movie and the ones that are indifferent, you have just given them an extra nudge just because it looks special. In addition, alot of people followed LOTR through it's original book format and creating this resemblance brings back that good feeling that you originally had when you first enjoyed that book. NLP is the packaging that creates the good feeling not to unequivocally force you to do something, but to nudge you along.



So take an effect that Derren does, forget his explanation - and try and find evidence that other people can reliably do it under controlled conditions. If no one else does and Derren is a magician (and admits he's tricking you) then the default position is that he's not really doing it - you're watching an illusion.

I think that's a very fair statement. Unfortunately I simply don't have the means to prove or disprove Mr. Brown in such fashion. That's why I come to communities such as this to find guidance and hopefully listen to both sides of the fence and get a better view of what is being presented to me.

[pjh]

Exactly my sentiments.pjh you cannot stae-without proof-that none of his effects use psychology/suggestion,as Jekyll pointed out the walking a man thru a market to a hidden photograph with merely a touch is psychology.
You're kidding right?

A guy who knows where something is hidden leads Derren (who also knows) to where it's hidden. What psychology/suggestion are you saying is going on here?

Some effects such as his blair witch type effect(where a girl in dark woods feels something touch her)involves putting the person in a suggestible state to enhance the trick.
I'm not getting into another hypnotism debate. My position is there is no such thing as a 'suggestible state', and Derren has repeatably said that no hypnotism is used to achieve his effects. If you want to believe that hypnotism somehow explains his tricks or shows his psychological powers then that's up to you.

[Jekyll]

You're kidding right?

A guy who knows where something is hidden leads Derren (who also knows) to where it's hidden. What psychology/suggestion are you saying is going on here?

The guy is not meant to lead Derren to where it is. Derren doesn't need to know where it is. The guy resists less when his arm is moved towards the object then when it is moved away (same principles at work here as people tricking themselves with dowsing or oweegee boards). If you want an physicist's perspective on it you could try reading "Surely you're joking Mr. Feynman"

I'm not getting into another hypnotism debate. My position is there is no such thing as a 'suggestible state', and Derren has repeatably said that no hypnotism is used to achieve his effects. If you want to believe that hypnotism somehow explains his tricks or shows his psychological powers then that's up to you.
Of course there are suggestible states. After watching a horror movie you're more likely to be startled by a noise.

[Azrael 5]

A guy who knows where something is hidden leads Derren (who also knows)

pjh would you like to state without doubt that the man in the market effect(where the man walked backwards anyway)was just a magic trick and nothing else? As it was on TV i have no idea if Derren knew where the photo was-BUT-I do know Derren didn't need to know.

I'm not getting into another hypnotism debate. My position is there is no such thing as a 'suggestible state', and Derren has repeatably said that no hypnotism is used to achieve his effects. If you want to believe that hypnotism somehow explains his tricks or shows his psychological powers then that's up to you.

Did I say hypnotism? When you walk through a cemetery at night why are you scared? Likewise when you watch a horror film and exterior noises make you jump.Is this not a form of suggestion or conditioning?

You take a scared girls into the woods,weave a scary story;a heightened sense of fear will be created.
To bleat on about Derren doesn't do this,that ,the other please say how he does do it.

[pjh]

The guy is not meant to lead Derren to where it is. Derren doesn't need to know where it is. The guy resists less when his arm is moved towards the object then when it is moved away (same principles at work here as people tricking themselves with dowsing or oweegee boards).
Maybe the police should get Derren in, he could get suspects to lead him to where bodies are buried and the drugs are hidden.

I'm amazed there are people who believe this is anything but a trick.
If you want an physicist's perspective on it you could try reading "Surely you're joking Mr. Feynman"
Why would you want a physicist's opinion on a magic trick?

As it was on TV i have no idea if Derren knew where the photo was-BUT-I do know Derren didn't need to know.
Either Derren knew OR the man wanted to (and did) lead him. Neither needs any further explanation.

[Azrael 5]

Maybe the police should get Derren in, he could get suspects to lead him to where bodies are buried and the drugs are hidden.

I'm amazed there are people who believe this is anything but a trick.

Why would you want a physicist's opinion on a magic trick?


Either Derren knew OR the man wanted to (and did) lead him. Neither needs any further explanation.

Google Hellstromism(sp?)or muscle reading pjh,here is one link to start you.
http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/muscle%20reading.html

Are you obsessed with the police btw? And the Blair witch effect?
What would we do without your intuitive knowledge? :rolleyes:

[Garrette]

Maybe the police should get Derren in, he could get suspects to lead him to where bodies are buried and the drugs are hidden.You're assuming guilt and also assuming suspects will have the similar motivations as a willing participant in an evening's entertainment.

You're also assuming the truly guilty suspect won't just smile and sit down.


I'm amazed there are people who believe this is anything but a trick.It is a trick. It's a trick based on unknowing movements, much like the ideomotor effect.


Why would you want a physicist's opinion on a magic trick?This particular physicist was inquisitive enough and intelligent enough to be able to piece together things others could not, including how to break into various safes, the combinations to which he could not possibly know (according to all the other smart people there).

Either Derren knew OR the man wanted to (and did) lead him. Neither needs any further explanation.The first would suffice, but is not necessary. The second is closer to the mark, but only if you broaden the meaning of "wanted to" to include the condition under which the man both wanted to do as he was told (i.e., hide the object and not give clues to its whereabouts) AND wanted the effect to work.

The method isn't perfect, though skilled and practiced people can approach 100%.

I've done it at a very very very amateur level involving short distances and relatively large objects.

[DJM]

If Derren had known in advance where the subject was, he would have found it in just about 30-40 minutes, which would still make it seem real. I doubt that he would be wasting about 2 hours of everyone's time just running in circles for fun.

But of course we already know that pjh has inside info about the show, so he must be correct about this like always.. :rolleyes:

[pjh]

I've done it at a very very very amateur level involving short distances and relatively large objects.

I have a huge problem with all these 'magic tricks' where the 'magic' is a supposed mind state of a subject.

On the face of it:
"Man you knows where something is leads magician to that thing"
Now that's hardly a spectacular trick is it?

Ahhh but he's not really leading me, well yes I know I asked him to, kind of, but he's trying not to lead me. Well actually that won't work, he has to want to lead me, just he doesn't lead me ... it's like wow - magic!

How do you know that these amateur attempts weren't people helping you very consciously for social reasons?

[DJM]

How do you know that these amateur attempts weren't people helping you very consciously for social reasons?

And how do you know that they were? Exactly!

[Azrael 5]

I have a huge problem with all these 'magic tricks' where the 'magic' is a supposed mind state of a subject.

On the face of it:
"Man you knows where something is leads magician to that thing"
Now that's hardly a spectacular trick is it?


It is when man is walking backwards and can't see where he is going.But he was probably a stooge anyway,or it was camera editing or..or or...
:rolleyes:

[pjh]

It is when man is walking backwards and can't see where he is going.But he was probably a stooge anyway,or it was camera editing or..or or...
:rolleyes:
Do explain exactly what you're claiming here by 'man is walking backwards and can't see where he's going'. What difference does that make?

If I know the layout of a warehouse and know where something is, it doesn't seem to be that hard to walk to it backwards? How does this affect anything?

[Jekyll]

On the face of it:
"Man you knows where something is leads magician to that thing"
Now that's hardly a spectacular trick is it?

So why do you think Derren Brown needs to cheat then?

[DJM]

Because pjh says so.

[Azrael 5]

Because pjh says so.

LOL. :D
Beats the Magic Cafe anyday DJM,eh? :p

On the face of it:
"Man you knows where something is leads magician to that thing"
Now that's hardly a spectacular trick is it?

I'll try again.It is when person leading doesn't speak and is merely giving off psychological(oops I said it again)signals.

[DJM]

LOL. :D
Beats the Magic Cafe anyday DJM,eh? :p .

Actually over at the Cafe it's also pretty fun. After all, it's not every that you get to talk to people wo believe Uri Geller and Sylvia Browne are the real thing.. :rolleyes:


About Derren, if he made me go after him in circles for 2 hours and then I found out that he knew where the subject was all along... Well, let's just say that in that case I would try to fix the head nod for him. ;)

[Garrette]

I have a huge problem with all these 'magic tricks' where the 'magic' is a supposed mind state of a subject.

On the face of it:
"Man you knows where something is leads magician to that thing"
Now that's hardly a spectacular trick is it?So you're complaint now is simply that the effect isn't an entertaining one?

That's fine. There's some magic I don't care for, either.

How do you know that these amateur attempts weren't people helping you very consciously for social reasons?I don't know that with absolute certainty.

[NeilC]

I'd like to take my question a little bit further and ask why people like pjh and splossy think that body language and NLP are made up?

I must say I am one of the gullible ones that thought NLP and body language does exist. Am I the lone ranger in these forums? is there something Splossy and pjh know that I don't?

It would be appreciated if they can elaborate on why they feel these things are make belief.

Personally I've seen a couple of videos on both topics and think they're very real and appliable (hmm.. not a word apparently). Therefore I would love to hear some counter arguments towards the NLP and body language subject.

Thanks.

Maybe I was putting it badly when I said I didn't believe in NLP per se. I don't believe Brown uses it much.

I also don't buy into many of the claims that NLP can accomplish many of the things that the practitioners say it can. Or indeed that it is anything new outside of very common psychology. Ie it's the emperors new clothes - rebranded, repacked but old stuff.

Body language? Well obviously we do transmit information via out bodies. But can Derren tell reliably if you are lying? No. How do I know that? Well the tricks I've seen where he apparantly does use body language are very easily explained by other methods.

Thing is, I can explain a possible and very likely method fo each and every effect in that show and none of it uses NLP or body language. So if he can use those things then he ought at least to perform effects that can't be done any other way or what is the point? Some of the TV show stuff does look like that and maybe some of it is - I just don't know because the format is so editable.

if you read my other posts you will see that I do allow for him using some psychological techniques, just not in that show.

[NeilC]

Skepdic in NLP: http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html

[Bob Klase]

I also don't buy into many of the claims that NLP can accomplish many of the things that the practitioners say it can. Or indeed that it is anything new outside of very common psychology. Ie it's the emperors new clothes - rebranded, repacked but old stuff.

I agree with that. One of the better known proponents of NLP for magicians is kenton Knepper. I've read some of his stuff (Wonder Words) and like most NLP proponents I think he greatly exaggerates its usage and abilities.

I'd guess that the most common (and perhaps most effective) use for NLP type techniques in magic is to leave suggestions so the magic is mis-remembered as being much better than it was. And that happens even without knowing anything about NLP. There have been a lot of times when I'd hear someone describing a trick I did to someone else a day or more after doing it. Usually I'd be thinking "I wish I could what they were describing, that's impossible".

[Garrette]

I haven't read Wonder Words in a couple of years; I don't recall NLP as part of it. Now I'll have to dig it out.

Regarding the rest of your post, I agree. Such suggestion is a significant part of how the Balducci Levitation is taught. After levitating, you're supposed to turn around quickly with an excited look on your face and ask "How high did I get?"

The subtle bit is that you have your hands in front of you, one above the other and palms facing, about a foot and a half apart. The idea is that when the spectator tells someone else about it, they will have their hands the same distance apart to show how high you got.

[Bob Klase]

I haven't read Wonder Words in a couple of years; I don't recall NLP as part of it. Now I'll have to dig it out.

NLP is just a part of it. I don't remember if he even refers to the term NLP in there, but it's in there. And some descriptions/ads for it even point out: Mentalist Kenton Knepper collaborated with Rex Stevens Sikes [Celebrity Consultant and NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) Vice President and IDEA Seminars Trainer]

[trader08]

Skepdic in NLP: I can not post link, see above

Thanks for the link, definitely an interesting perspective, I've been to that site before but for whatever reason, it just never occurred to me to lookup NLP there haha...

I only recently came across NLP and body language reading and then saw Derren Brown on Youtube, from there I was obsessed in determining exactly how much NLP/suggestion and body language reading is really in Derren Brown's work. More accurately, exactly how powerful is NLP/suggestion?

From my recent research into Banachek and Osterlind's work, I think I'm confident in feeling that Derren definitely is overstating his NLP/Suggestion and body reading abilities.

As for NLP/Suggestion and body language reading, I'm also confident that they do still have a place in social settings and thus worth considering. Having said that, it's usefulness is definitely not to the degree that Derren and teachers of these discipline seem to suggest. I would equate it to card counting for blackjack, your ability to count cards will not guarantee that you will make money on every sitting, but the overall net effect by performing it consistently will result in a higher probability of coming out ahead as oppose to not counting cards.

[tkingdoll]

Thanks for the link, definitely an interesting perspective, I've been to that site before but for whatever reason, it just never occurred to me to lookup NLP there haha...

I only recently came across NLP and body language reading and then saw Derren Brown on Youtube, from there I was obsessed in determining exactly how much NLP/suggestion and body language reading is really in Derren Brown's work. More accurately, exactly how powerful is NLP/suggestion?

From my recent research into Banachek and Osterlind's work, I think I'm confident in feeling that Derren definitely is overstating his NLP/Suggestion and body reading abilities.

As for NLP/Suggestion and body language reading, I'm also confident that they do still have a place in social settings and thus worth considering. Having said that, it's usefulness is definitely not to the degree that Derren and teachers of these discipline seem to suggest. I would equate it to card counting for blackjack, your ability to count cards will not guarantee that you will make money on every sitting, but the overall net effect by performing it consistently will result in a higher probability of coming out ahead as oppose to not counting cards.

He's a magician, that's all there is to it. He employs all the tricks and stunts any other magician (like Copperfield or Blaine) does, and packages in them in...shall we say a novel way.

Apply the same skepticism you do when Copperfield tells you he's sawing a woman in half.

[Big Les]

It's been said here before, but the NLP/psychology angle is a replacement "schtick" for the old style paranormal "explanations" for this kind of magic. Once, "woo" was believable, but modern audiences are somewhat more savvy, and bored with the old stuff to a certain extent. Thus putting their tricks down to (ostensibly more believable) pseudoscience rather than the supernatural, Derren and co can draw in a new generation of audiences. His debunking of supernatural stuff augments this and lends credibility to the idea that he's somehow "legit". His "debunkings" may well be, but like all magicians, don't trust him; he's bound to be up to something! :D

[tkingdoll]

It's been said here before, but the NLP/psychology angle is a replacement "schtick" for the old style paranormal "explanations" for this kind of magic. Once, "woo" was believable, but modern audiences are somewhat more savvy, and bored with the old stuff to a certain extent. Thus putting their tricks down to (ostensibly more believable) pseudoscience rather than the supernatural, Derren and co can draw in a new generation of audiences. His debunking of supernatural stuff augments this and lends credibility to the idea that he's somehow "legit". His "debunkings" may well be, but like all magicians, don't trust him; he's bound to be up to something! :D

Dammit, I was trying to be more subtle than that :D

But you nailed it, right on the nose.

[mollyblack]

I know I'm new here, but I was at the forum party and have a page to link to (finally - being sick is no fun), but if I could get the PM as well, I would be thrilled.

Friends with Curt Burgess (name dropping a photographer who shot for the calendars for this year) and I may either/and photograph/model for this next one. We'll see.

Anyway, I wanna know because I love stuff like that. I have a couple great books on Mentalism, and I'm off to check the NLP thing.

So, PM please? :drool:

[HappyHarryHampton]

What disgusts me is not Derren Brown (he's a good illusionist).. it's the majority of the public who unquestioningly accept that his tricks are psychological and that he uses his special knowledge of the human mind etc.
Read the coments on YouTube and be amazed at how people just believe what they are told by a perceived authority figure (Derren in this case) without any question.

Are they insane?

Derren is misdirecting them into thinking this is psychology but they just won't accept it.

Point it out YouTube and expect it to get flagged as spam.

Sickening.

[tkingdoll]

What disgusts me is not Derren Brown (he's a good illusionist).. it's the majority of the public who unquestioningly accept that his tricks are psychological and that he uses his special knowledge of the human mind etc.
Read the coments on YouTube and be amazed at how people just believe what they are told by a perceived authority figure (Derren in this case) without any question.

Are they insane?

Derren is misdirecting them into thinking this is psychology but they just won't accept it.

Point it out YouTube and expect it to get flagged as spam.

Sickening.

Derren, is that you? ;)

[Azrael 5]

It's troll time again.

[HappyHarryHampton]

'It's troll time again'?

What?

I don't understand.

I am merely pointing out my disgust with the members of the public (not Derren Brown) who see Derren Brown perform a trick, describe it as psychology and believe what he says.

I'm not having a go at Derren Brown, it's the unquestioning public.

Check out Derrens videos on Youtube and read the comments.

People are just stupid.

I particularly loved the comment about the dog track video where I pointed out the ticket swop on his first booth vist... apparantly I was wrong because 'Derren immediately had her under his control'.

Lots of people buying the NLP stuff.

Lots of people buying his ability to put people under immediate hypnosis.

Go and read them.

It you question them you get flagged as spam (what a crap option that is)

I'm sure Derren Brown finds it highly amusing.

People need to question everything they are told.

[Azrael 5]

Go tell the public then,not us.This forum is only available to members,all who know what Derren does.

[DJM]

BitterHarry, you've bumped 3 different threads in order to tell the exact same thing about Derren. We know very well that that he's a mentalist who mostly creates illusions. That's what mentalists do, give false explainations about their effects, whether it's psychological or supernatural. Derren is being honest about what he does, because he admits that he's combining magic, showmanship and misdirection in his effects.

Like Azrael 5 said, stop spamming the forum with the exact same thing.. Some of those who reply on YouTube also think Criss Angel can fly, mostly kids post there. Don't take it too seriously.

[HappyHarryHampton]

Hmmm... spamming am I?

I didn't start any of the threads I've contributed to and everything I have said is in context.

There sure are some touchy Derren Brown fans here.

Derren is honest about his dishonesty?

Really? How is anyone supposed to square that circle?

[JonWhite]

I'm not having a go at Derren Brown, it's the unquestioning public.

yet

Derren is honest about his dishonesty?

Really? How is anyone supposed to square that circle?


Errr...?

[DJM]

Hmmm... spamming am I?

I didn't start any of the threads I've contributed to and everything I have said is in context.

There sure are some touchy Derren Brown fans here.

Derren is honest about his dishonesty?

Really? How is anyone supposed to square that circle?

Yes, Derren is honest about his dishonesty, something that he keeps saying so that the viewers would understand as much as they can. He wants everyone to question what he does, especially since magic and mentalism is very close to his heart. That's why he's shared things with the magic community over the years.

And I don't think Derren's fans are touchy, they are just tired of all those who try to twist/don't understand what mentalism is all about. If you check some of the other known mentalists out there, you will see that Derren is not much different. Actually he's much more honest than some of them.

[AgeGap]

Really excited when I saw the thread title. Wow, new show.

Oops.

[DJM]

You can get excited again, as there's a new one hour special by Derren this month on the 25th, called The System. And I've read that Trick or Trick will be back for second season pretty soon!

[JonWhite]

Really excited when I saw the thread title. Wow, new show.

Oops.


Nooo.......... be excited!

New Derren Brown show "The System (http://badpsychics.com/thefraudfiles/modules/news/article.php?storyid=625)".


ETA: Dagnammit!!! DJM just beat me to it whilst I was so thoughtfully finding the link. :)

[DJM]

Nooo.......... be excited!

New Derren Brown show "The System (http://badpsychics.com/thefraudfiles/modules/news/article.php?storyid=625)".


ETA: Dagnammit!!! DJM just beat me to it whilst I was so thoughtfully finding the link. :)

Great, it worked! I knew that you were planning to post about that, as you are part of The System program. Nothing but mind control.

Please sign this agreement over here.. ;)

[Azrael 5]

You can get excited again, as there's a new one hour special by Derren this month on the 25th, called The System. And I've read that Trick or Trick will be back for second season pretty soon!

Oh lets hope not.Maybe he can do an episode on Gerry and Kate.Make them believe they didn't kill their daughter. ;) :p

[randomnut]

Hey,
Would just like to say i'm a big fan of Derren Brown, seen him live a few times. He's always honest about his dishonesty, and youre never under any illusion he is using any psychic powers, but always leaves you wondering and in awe about how he did it, which is the real magic of magic.

I would be very interested if someone could PM me as mentioned earlier in the thread outlining how he does some of his tricks. I do know of a few, which if anyone is interested please PM me, but I would be very keen to learn more.

[Azrael 5]

Hey,
Would just like to say i'm a big fan of Derren Brown, seen him live a few times. He's always honest about his dishonesty, and youre never under any illusion he is using any psychic powers, but always leaves you wondering and in awe about how he did it, which is the real magic of magic.

I would be very interested if someone could PM me as mentioned earlier in the thread outlining how he does some of his tricks. I do know of a few, which if anyone is interested please PM me, but I would be very keen to learn more.

Glad you know he's just a magician.Want to know he does his tricks? Learn magic.Should only take you a few years.;)
No one on here will tell you.

[randomnut]

Glad you know he's just a magician.Want to know he does his tricks? Learn magic.Should only take you a few years.;)
No one on here will tell you.


I just mentioned that as a few people mentioned earlier about PM'ing is all.

Yeah I find it funny people think he actually does have some powers, as he openly says otherwise. He is just a very very very good performer, seeing his live shows is awesome.

[Azrael 5]

Regular members may PM each other.But as you only have 2 posts its a bit optimistic to ask.:)

[DJM]

Regular members may PM each other.But as you only have 2 posts its a bit optimistic to ask.:)

Well, you are a regular member here and I still ignored all the PM's you have sent to me asking for secrets. :blush:

[Azrael 5]

Well, you are a regular member here and I still ignored all the PM's you have sent to me asking for secrets. :blush:

You ignore all my PMs full stop it seems.Layman. :p

[JonWhite]

Looks like DB's new show "The System" is to go out on Channel 4 on Feb. 1st at 9pm.

DB News (http://www.derrenbrown.co.uk/news)


(hoorayyy, beat DJM to it for once! :D)

[DJM]

Actually I already posted about it a few days ago in the other Derren thread..

[DJM]

Just kidding. ;)