Hunting ban

[Jon_in_london]

Well, MPs have finally voted in favour of a complete ban on hunting with dogs.

Of course the real reason I wanted to post this is to show you a possibly not safe for work link (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003300646,00.html) showing two toffs who decided to show their naked dilike for this new law.

PS- it isnt law yet, it still has to pass through the House of Lords.
Which it wont.

[Giz]

The wost thing about this legislation is that it makes me almost grateful that we have an unelected second chamber...

[richardm]

Originally posted by Giz
The wost thing about this legislation is that it makes me almost grateful that we have an unelected second chamber...

I take it you don't approve?

(of either!)

[Giz]

Originally posted by richardm


I take it you don't approve?

(of either!)

Correct (I'm ferociously pro-democracy, excepting certain reservations about the UK electorate, who i'm not really sure are ready for the responsibility).

Personally I've never gone fox hunting and have no desire to. However, I don't agree with a bunch of ignorant townies imposing their view of a rural idyl on those who live there.
If one were cynical you might think that Labour are rallying their core vote, this being as miuch a class envy issue as animal rights.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

There is talk of using the parliament act to assert the supremacy of the elected chamber and force this through the House of Lords so I suspect this is the end of hunting with dogs.

At least until the challenges reach the courts. :)

[BillyTK]

After spending my formative years in a fairly rural area, and having had some experience of hunts during that period, I'm happy to follow my prejudices and admit I find it hard to get upset over a bunch of toffs who believe that having a big horse and a 20 Player's accent gives them the right to ride where ever they please.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Giz

However, I don't agree with a bunch of ignorant townies ... this being as miuch a class envy issue as animal rights.

Yes, well... calling them ignorant townies is hardly going to draw them to the cause, is it? And frankly, it doesn't matter whether they understand the way hunting integrates in country life. At one point bear gardens were a deeply integrated part of life, but they and all the sports they housed were rightly done away with and no harm done.

I don't think it has as much to do with class envy, either, to be honest. You'll notice that they're banning hare coursing as well, which certainly wasn't an upper class pastime where I came from. Yet, fox hunting - which townies are meant to believe is just for the nobs - was given a special amendment that would make it possible to continue under licence. (The amendment was rejected , though).

Besides, the hunts are always keen to point out that there are plenty of "Ordinary" people who go along with the hunt (although I suppose ignorant townies wouldn't be expected to know that).

Mind you, there is one particular inconsistency in the pro-fox hunting argument that baffles me. On the one hand we're told that fox hunting is the only effective way to control foxes. On the other hand we're told it's not cruel because they almost never catch the fox.

I'm sure one of these must be wrong.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Giz


Correct (I'm ferociously pro-democracy, excepting certain reservations about the UK electorate, who i'm not really sure are ready for the responsibility).


Don't worry - I'm sure that no matter what the government decides about an elected upper chamber, they'll be careful to make sure the PM gets to decide who's elected to it :D

[Jon_in_london]

Never mind all that crap! what about the boobies! :D

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by richardm


Mind you, there is one particular inconsistency in the pro-fox hunting argument that baffles me. On the one hand we're told that fox hunting is the only effective way to control foxes. On the other hand we're told it's not cruel because they almost never catch the fox.

I'm sure one of these must be wrong.

I liked that one too. There were also claims that hunting was the most efficient method of controlling fox numbers, but that banning hunting would result in a decrease in fox numbers as farmers only tolerate them because they can hunt them. Nice to see logic decided not to get involved in the debate.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet


I liked that one too. There were also claims that hunting was the most efficient method of controlling fox numbers, but that banning hunting would result in a decrease in fox numbers as farmers only tolerate them because they can hunt them. Nice to see logic decided not to get involved in the debate.

Excellent! I must have missed that one :D

I see you live in Scotland. Isn't there a hunting ban there now? How has that affected things? Hordes of horses down at the jobcentres? Seriously - if it's been implemented, has it had an effect? Lots of job losses and / or mass lawbreaking have been promised in England, I gather.

Edited to add: the "it's not cruel because they almost never catch the fox" argument always sounded a bit spurious to me. It seems to me that if you're the odd fox that gets caught, it's plenty cruel enough. It's a bit like saying "Russian Roulette is not dangerous because 5 times out of 6 it's an empty chamber".

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by richardm
Mind you, there is one particular inconsistency in the pro-fox hunting argument that baffles me. On the one hand we're told that fox hunting is the only effective way to control foxes. On the other hand we're told it's not cruel because they almost never catch the fox.

I'm sure one of these must be wrong.

Definitely the former; the words "arse", "torch" and "stick" spring to mind... ;)

[Giz]

Originally posted by richardm


Yes, well... calling them ignorant townies is hardly going to draw them to the cause, is it?



Ah well, I probably meant "bleeding hearts" rather than "ignorant townies" though i'm far from convinced that they realise that nature is "red in tooth and claw", dogs just want to have fun too, and perhaps they're trying a bit to hard to sanitise the countryside. IM(H)O there are some areas of our heritage that could be modernised (monarchy, constitution etc) but fox hunting seems fairly innocuous really.

Also, all the effort exerted against fox hunting could surely have been used far more effectivaly/morally in campaigning for various human issues. But if people want to help the cute little animals rather than do something substantive...

[Shane Costello]

Hasn't the House of Commons anything better to do? Not that I regularly ride with the hounds myself, but seriously, can't the elected representatives of the the British people think of anyhting better to do to improve the lot of the country as a whole?

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by richardm


Excellent! I must have missed that one :D

I see you live in Scotland. Isn't there a hunting ban there now? How has that affected things? Hordes of horses down at the jobcentres? Seriously - if it's been implemented, has it had an effect? Lots of job losses and / or mass lawbreaking have been promised in England, I gather.

Edited to add: the "it's not cruel because they almost never catch the fox" argument always sounded a bit spurious to me. It seems to me that if you're the odd fox that gets caught, it's plenty cruel enough. It's a bit like saying "Russian Roulette is not dangerous because 5 times out of 6 it's an empty chamber".


The ban is causing terrible problems up here - you can't walk down the street without being accosted by someone in a red coat asking for "£50 for a bottle of champers".

We were also promised mass lawbreaking and even "untold chaos" which sounded like fun. A quick search of the BBC website shows four people have appeared in court and none have yet had their cases heard.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

I suspect that most things that most people do every day would fail a "do they have nothing better to do" test. On the other hand if we can keep them occupied talking about foxes and other relatively harmless things, then at least they are not making yet more changes to the design of the new parliament building. So far they have managed to increase the original £40m estimate to £400m. In the papers today they are talking about putting a windfarm on the roof. Wonder how much that will add?

[Ian Osborne]

Originally posted by richardm
On the one hand we're told that fox hunting is the only effective way to control foxes. On the other hand we're told it's not cruel because they almost never catch the fox.

Yes, fox hunters also build false dens to encourage foxes to breed, and encourage farmers to leave certain areas on their land untouched to facilitate their habitats. Pest control? Conservation of wildlife? Make up your mind.

There was no fox hunting in World War II, and the fox population didn't change drastically either way. Mother Nature has been controling populations for millions of years - it's really arrogant to assume it takes an extra effort from mankind to do so, especially when such a vocal interest group is volunteering for the job.