StopSylviaBrowne: Browne & Christianity, Levels of Creation

[RSLancastr]

Two new articles to round out the year:

Sylvia Browne and Christianity (http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com/articles/browneandchristianity.shtml)

Montel: Explaining the Levels of Creation (http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com/articles/montel_explainingthelevels.shtml)

Note that the first is not skeptical, but is written for a specific audience which might find it important.

The second is just... well, read it and see. :)

As always, all comments are appreciated.

[Darat]

I know you say that the first is not skeptical - but I think your concluding line "However, none of them could tell me if there were any such prohibitions against merely pretending to talk with the dead, which is what Browne appears to be doing." does the rest of the article a bit of a disservice - I think a more powerful ending would be along the lines of:

"Sylvia Brown, if she believes in her Church's tenets and what she has published in her books cannot claim to be a Christian as she does not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and mankind's only Saviour."

[Darat]

As for the second one... honestly she sounds like a drunk trying to explain something to someone who is sober - she comes out with words and fragments of phrases yet it is nothing more then an incoherent burble with no reason behind it.

[RSLancastr]

I think a more powerful ending would be along the lines of:

"Sylvia Brown, if she believes in her Church's tenets and what she has published in her books cannot claim to be a Christian as she does not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and mankind's only Saviour."That would definitely be a powerful ending if I were a Christian. Being an agnostic, I don't think I have much place saying who can and cannot claim to be a Christian.

All I felt comfortable doing within the context of that article is pointing out major differences between Browne's brand of Christianity, and that of "mainstream" Christianity.

I leave the "she is/isn't a Christian" opinions to Christians.

[RSLancastr]

As for the second one... honestly she sounds like a drunk trying to explain something to someone who is sober - she comes out with words and fragments of phrases yet it is nothing more then an incoherent burble with no reason behind it.Yup. I thought it pretty much spoke for itself, and simply used the "fairy story" as a way of closing the article.

Personally, I think she sounded like a junior high student doing an oral book report on a book after only reading the table of contents.

[Darat]

That would definitely be a powerful ending if I were a Christian. Being an agnostic, I don't think I have much place saying who can and cannot claim to be a Christian.

All I felt comfortable doing within the context of that article is pointing out major differences between Browne's brand of Christianity, and that of "mainstream" Christianity.

I leave the "she is/isn't a Christian" opinions to Christians.

Fair enough.

[Darat]

Yup. I thought it pretty much spoke for itself, and simply used the "fairy story" as a way of closing the article.

Personally, I think she sounded like a junior high student doing an oral book report on a book after only reading the table of contents.

I do wonder how much of her published material she has actually authored herself? In all her appearances I have seen and heard she hardly seems able to construct a sentence - yet her published words (that I've read on your site) at least manage to resemble sentences - even if their content is as nonsensical as anything she normally says! I suspect she has quite extensive help.

[thatguywhojuggles]

Cool, Sylvia is making up stories about a made up character.

[RSLancastr]

I do wonder how much of her published material she has actually authored herself?I wonder the same thing, and almost expressed that thought in the conclusion, but decided against it.

With any luck, time will tell.

[Brown]

What I find fascinating is the absolute, utter contempt that Browne has for the public. She assumes a populace that is superstitious to the Nth degree and as stupid as a sack of corn meal.

And she makes her living from the unfortunate fact that a significant percentage of the public falls into this category. Well, you know what they say about a fool and his/her money....

[Ladewig]

What I find fascinating is the absolute, utter contempt that Browne has for the public. She assumes a populace that is superstitious to the Nth degree and as stupid as a sack of corn meal.

And she makes her living from the unfortunate fact that a significant percentage of the public falls into this category. Well, you know what they say about a fool and his/her money....

I think you may be going too far here. Many of her clients are filled with grief to the point that their judgement is clouded. Still, I will agree that some of her believers fall into the category that you describe.

[RSLancastr]

I think you may be going too far here. Many of her clients are filled with grief to the point that their judgement is clouded. I agree, Ladewig. Since putting up the site, I have corresponded with a number of people who fell for Browne while in such a state and later regretted it.

[Outhere]

I apologize for not having the article to hand, but in one issue of the Skeptical Inquirer, a comparison was given between Sylvia's writing on some occult matter and a piece by Joe Nickell, I believe. She copied him almost word for word. I'll try to find it, but forgive an old lady who's had too much dinner on New Year's Day and is comfortably settled in her Lazy-Boy.

[Miss Whiplash]

Here you are:

Sylvia Plagiarizes Joe Nickell (http://www.csicop.org/si/2005-09/sylvia.html)

[RSLancastr]

Beat me to it, Vampire!

[Brown]

I think you may be going too far here. Many of her clients are filled with grief to the point that their judgement is clouded. Still, I will agree that some of her believers fall into the category that you describe.This is a good point. Curiously, I'm reminded of Captain Kirk's remark, that "Desperation is a highly emotional state," an observation with which Mr. Spock agreed.

I suspect that Kirk's remark was rather an understatement. Desperation is not only highly emotional, it is a nemesis to logical thinking. Desperation smothers rationality. Desperation is a state of surrender to insanity. Other highly emotional states, such as fear, joy, love, amusement, and even grief do not block out all rational thinking, although they can make rational thinking more difficult.

Desperation is different. Desperate people lose all sense of reason and for that reason are easy prey for charlatans. Sadly, I have seen this happen, even to members of my own family.

It is desperation, not mere grief or any other emotion, that drives people to consult so-called psychics or other charlatans. Many people think that maybe, just maybe, Browne has some legitimate information that will answer their questions. If they weren't in a state of desperation, they'd recognize at once that she is talking out of her bung hole, to put it euphemistically.

That said, I do not retract my assessment that she exhibits the utmost contempt for her audience.

[RSLancastr]

That said, I do not retract my assessment that she exhibits the utmost contempt for her audience.And that I agree with one hundred percent.

[CFLarsen]

So there's seven levels below, and seven levels above. So what I did was, everything that's, you know, like gnomes and fairies, and any thought that we have, is on the lower level.

Sylvia Browne believes in gnomes and fairies?

Yup.

Sylvia Browne believes in gnomes and fairies.

[Spidey13]

But do gnomes and fairies believe in Sylvia Browne?

[Zep]

She will believe in anything, if it pays for her.

[Darat]

But do gnomes and fairies believe in Sylvia Browne?


Nah - they are too sensible to believe in such a made-up character.

[Darat]

She will believe in anything, if it pays for her.

A sort of naturally evolved electronic monk (http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~ard/adams.html)? ;)

[Ladewig]

That said, I do not retract my assessment that she exhibits the utmost contempt for her audience.

Yes, and I am saddened that more of her followers don't see that. Even if people were to believe in ADC I would hope that they could see how rude she is to some of her audience members.

As for the rest of your post, let me repeat what I said in post #11: I agree with your statement that some of her followers are just supertitious and stupid, I just disagreed with the numbers. Upon reflection, I realized my disagreement may have been out of place given that you never were more specific than saying "a significant percentage."

I think my primary motivation for not letting your original post stand without some criticism was knowing that some believers and some fence-sitters lurk here to see what is going on. I don't want those people to think that skeptics are heartless a-holes.

[Brown]

I think my primary motivation for not letting your original post stand without some criticism was knowing that some believers and some fence-sitters lurk here to see what is going on. I don't want those people to think that skeptics are heartless a-holes.I appreciate that. It's also important, I think, not to appear to blame the victim, especially when you seek to direct the criticism exclusively at the charlatan.

In this thread, my disgust is directed exclusively at Browne. Shame on her.

(I expect it's been posted elsewhere, but she is the featured guest on Montel tomorrow, although this may be a rerun. Shame on him, too, by the way.)

[KingMerv00]

Sylvia Browne believes in gnomes and fairies?

Yup.

Sylvia Browne believes in gnomes and fairies.

Step 1: Collect underpants.

Step 2: Contact Sylvia Browne about book deal.

Step 3: Profit!

[CFLarsen]

I appreciate that. It's also important, I think, not to appear to blame the victim, especially when you seek to direct the criticism exclusively at the charlatan.

Yes and no.

Remember Clancie? She knew that psychic Robert Brown was a crook, yet she continued to claim that he was real, to other believers. I have no problems criticizing that, in no uncertain terms.

It is because of people like Clancie that psychics like Sylvia Browne can go on scamming people.

[luchog]

I know you say that the first is not skeptical - but I think your concluding line "However, none of them could tell me if there were any such prohibitions against merely pretending to talk with the dead, which is what Browne appears to be doing." does the rest of the article a bit of a disservice - I think a more powerful ending would be along the lines of:"
On a tangential note, not only does scripture prohibit contacting the dead, but it also states that doing so is not actually possible, and that any actual spirits contacted would be impostors -- "demons and unclean spirits" masquerading as the dearly departed.

[RSLancastr]

Good point. I had forgotten that.

[AK-Dave]

On a somewhat unrelated note, Orac at ScienceBlogs.com has featured the Stop Sylvia Browne (http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com/) site in a post yesterday on his blog Respectful Insolence (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/).
Link: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/01/stop_sylvia_browne.php

[RSLancastr]

On a somewhat unrelated note, Orac at ScienceBlogs.com has featured the Stop Sylvia Browne (http://www.stopsylviabrowne.com/) site in a post yesterday on his blog Respectful Insolence (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/).
Link: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/01/stop_sylvia_browne.phpVery cool, thanks for the heads up on this, Dave!

This probably accounts for the spike in visits to the site yesterday.

I am continually amazed and pleased by the support the site is getting via links from all over.

[rjh01]

RSLancastr
Just done a search on Google. Your site is not mentioned if I type SylviaBrowne. You may need to fix this. If I type "Sylvia Browne" then it is the first site on the second page.

Your results may differ slightly as I am in Australia.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Robert, I think it would be helpful to add this to the Browne and Christianity article: Sylvia doesn't believe in the existence of Satan or Hell, something she's stated in one book and on Montel.

She says that the second she was told those things in Catholic school as a child she "simply knew they weren't true and were just invented to scare people".

Now, could someone please explain to me how it's possible to believe in both a heaven/ Other Side and in reincarnation?

[RSLancastr]

Robert, I think it would be helpful to add this to the Browne and Christianity article: Sylvia doesn't believe in the existence of Satan or Hell, something she's stated in one book and on Montel.EMM, thanks for the suggestion, but I intentionally left these out of the article.

I was trying to contrast her take on things with those of "mainstream Christianity," and so I tried to stick to topics on which mainstream Christianity has somewhat of a consensus, so I would not have to compare her take with that of various denominations.

As I understand it, there is a wide variety of interpretations on the subjects of Hell and Satan within mainstream Christianity. Is Hell a physical place? An allegory? Is it simply being "absent from the presence of God?" Various denominations have their own takes on this, so I left it off of the list.

[Kage]

"light coma" is particularly funny for those of us who are fans of Arrested Development.