Need help debunking possible urban legend

[Lisa Simpson]

I belong to a Yahoo group for owners/breeders of Japanese Bobtail cats. Banzai, The Greatest Cat in the Universe, is a JBT. So anyway, this morning, a message appeared in my inbox from the group, telling of a man in the UK who is being forced out of the mink farming business because of legislation passed in Parliament. Now this guy is supposedly going around trying to buy Bengal kittens. Included in this message were two links:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/news/112000/26/mink.shtml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/real_story/4919980.stm

I was immediately suspicious. The guy moved his mink farming business to Denmark in '03, so why would he be back in the UK buying cats for coats? Before I post back to the group, I would like to know if anyone in the UK has heard of such a thing. I checked on Snopes, but no luck.

And just for your amusement - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOIyUHxKbMg

[Amapola]

I'm not real clear on what this guy is being accused of - he is buying bengal kittens for what reason? To breed them? Or to make them into fur coats?

If the accusation is that he is buying up kittens with the plan to skin them and make them into fur coats, well, my mind just boggles. The cheapest bengal kitten I can find is $350.00. Most of them cost between $500.00 and $600.00 each, with some going for even more. That's an awful lot of money to pay for a cat skin. I just did a little research and found that it takes 24 cat skins to make a coat. So even at $350.00 each, that fur would cost the guy $8,400.00. Then of course he would need to sell it at a profit. That seems a little difficult.

If the guy is being accused of breeding bengals with the intent to skin them, well, again I think that could be a little stretch of the truth. If you can sell your kittens for $350.00 each, why on earth would you knock them in the head and skin them?

Apparently in some countries there IS a trade in dog and cat fur. It is outlawed in the USA. So I suppose it is possible the guy is raising cats for their fur, but if he is using bengals, it seems to me he has more money than sense.

[brodski]

More general background here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6165786.stm
The issue seems to be dog and cat furn coming from china. there is no evidence of dog and cat fur being produced in the EU. If this guy is buying cats and dogs for the fur trade in the UK, then he is acting illegally, also the Uk has some of the strictest animal welfare legislation in the world, if he where planning to run a cat and dog fur business, why would he do it in the UK, and not Denmark where he is already based?
I call BS.

[Darat]

Looking at the places that do still buy dog and cat pelts it appears the price for a dog pelt is around £3 and for a cat around £2 so like Amapola I just can't see how it would be financially worthwhile in a country like Denmark or the UK to "farm" cats (especially pedigree cats) for their pelts.

[Lisa Simpson]

I'm not real clear on what this guy is being accused of - he is buying bengal kittens for what reason? To breed them? Or to make them into fur coats?

Yes, I believe the inference is he's buying up Bengal cats both to breed and then make them into fur coats. I assume it's because Bengal cats' fur looks mink-like.

[Darat]

Yes, I believe the inference is he's buying up Bengal cats both to breed and then make them into fur coats. I assume it's because Bengal cats' fur looks mink-like.

Has to be baloney then. No furrier is going to mistake cat pelts for mink pelts and he just won't be able to make money selling the pelts on to people who do make clothing from cat skins and in that it would be an even "more" illegal activity then other fur farming in the UK and it just ends up in the realm of cuckoo-land.

[sophia8]

As Amapola points out, this guy will not be buying Bengal kittens to turn them into fur coats - not if he's sane, anyway.
What makes Bengal cats so valuable is they they are are hybrids of domestic cats and a type of small leopard known as the Asian Leopard Cat. This makes breeding them expensive, as you have to start off with at least one Asian Leopard, with all the attendent paperwork, inspection, licencing and housing. You can breed them from hybrid kittens, but the Bengal genetic pool is so small at the moment that you have to reintroduce the original leopard line every now and then.
Also, Bengal cat breeders ay that you have to get to at least the fourth-generation cross before you get cats that are suitable for domestication - too much leopard makes them unsuitable as pets.
If the guy's already been a mink breeder, it's no big stretch for him to switch to exotic cats. Maybe it's the fact that he's previously been breeding mink that's making the Peta-poopers think he's going to be breeding these cats for fur.

[Lisa Simpson]

I posted to the group that maybe, just maybe, it might be an urban legend. I will report back if there are any follow up posts to mine.

BTW, how much does a pet-quality Bengal kitty sell for in the UK?

[sophia8]

Yes, I believe the inference is he's buying up Bengal cats both to breed and then make them into fur coats. I assume it's because Bengal cats' fur looks mink-like.Nope - Bengal cats are spotted and short-haired. Nothing at all like mink.
Here's some cute Bengal kitty pictures (http://www.bengal-kittens.net/)

[Lisa Simpson]

According the post, he's looking for cats without rib markings.

[sophia8]

BTW, how much does a pet-quality Bengal kitty sell for in the UK?
Bengals typically sell for around £300 to £500 in the UK these days. For more advanced owners, top quality showing and breeding cats can cost from £800 to a few thousand pounds, depending on the quality of the individual cat.
Buying your Bengal cat (http://www.bengalcat.co.uk/pet/buying/index.htm)

[Darat]

Boris's breeder (not my avatar photo) also breeds Bengals and was charging around £400-500 when I bought Boris for £350. That's for a kitten judged to just be "pet quality" so they are still toward the top end price for pedigree cats in the UK.

[Big Les]

This is crap. Not only are Bengals bloody expensive as has been covered, but the breeding community in the UK is very small; someone within it would know about this and would have alerted the police and/or RSPCA.

Smacks of UL to me; along the lines of the old Chinese restaurant serving customers "mystery meat" that turns out to be dog/cat. Classic gross-out / culture clash myth, only in this case it's a minority interest group (fur trade people), rather than an ethnic group, that's being attacked. You know; "those strange yellow people will eat anything, and are coming here to feed us our pets" has become "those evil fur breeders, deprived of their animal stock, are coming to turn our pets into coats". Demonising a perceived enemy.

[Lisa Simpson]

Well, someone just responded with "Denmark and the UK aren't that far apart, just a ferry ride." Um...distance was never my argument. So, I responded back saying essentially "why go to the UK to commit a crime, when his business is legal in Denmark?" Which is what I said the first time, but apparently not well enough.

Truthfully, I wouldn't be surprised if I get kicked out of the Yahoo group for arguing.

[Amapola]

I read a little more about this and I have heard some of the claims about cat fur. One is that it is being marketed as "rabbit fur" in some areas where cat fur is illegal. OK. I used to raise and show rabbits, and have owned many cats. I simply can not see someone getting the two mixed up. I would certainly know in an instant. I have to be skeptical about this claim, despite that they say "experts" can not tell the difference without a DNA test. I may not be an expert, but I can certainly tell the difference.

The second claim is that cat fur is marketed as "fake fur" in areas where cat fur is illegal. Let me tell you - you have to be some kind of stupid to mix up a pelt (with leather, coming off an animal) with fake fur (woven on a loom out of threads). Not that there aren't some dumb people out there. But aren't government inspectors supposed to be trained in stuff like this? They can't ALL be total morons. I am thinking they can actually spot things like this.

I don't doubt there is an actual cat fur trade, but I think the claims are a little exaggerated.

This is where I read this: The Cat Fur Trade (http://www.messybeast.com/cat-fur.htm).

[Lisa Simpson]

I still cannot see someone buying pedigreed cats for the fur trade. Just too darned expensive.

[aries]

HI :)

I don'thoe the situation is in the UK, but in Denmark, the mink farming business is legal. However, there has been some debate over the import of cat and dog skin used for fur coats, i.e. used to them hem ? inside the fur coat :( :( : :whine: :(

I think people were offended by two things a) that dog and cat skins were passed off as an being from rabbits and b) that the dogs and cats were skinned alive :shock: :whine: :( :whine: :shock:

And yes, Denmark and the UK may still only by a boatride away, but you still have to get from Esbjerg on the Danish west coast to Copenhagen (which is in the east of Denmark) to get to the big fur dealers. And this usually takes about 5-6 hours.... or so...

[Lisa Simpson]

Do you know if it is legal to buy/breed cats and dogs for the purposes of the fur trade in Denmark?

[supercorgi]

I'd say UL. For one thing, from the new article, it doesn't sound like he was raising all that many minks in England:

Mr Cobbledick processes 30 mink pelts every year at his farm, one of 13 in England.

Hardly enough to make one coat (minks aren't large). Bengal or exotic cats are very expensive. You'd make a lot more money selling them to fanciers than you would by breeding them for pelts. Cat hair couldn't in any way be mistaken for mink - if anyone was to breed domestic cats for their pelts - they're doing it for the pattern, and you cannot pass that off as any other type of fur. I think that this guy has lost his income in one animal related business and has simply moved on to another. Not that that's great --anyone breeding animals for profilt (US puppymills come to mind) is not doing a favor to the animals!

[supercorgi]

I don't doubt there is an actual cat fur trade, but I think the claims are a little exaggerated.

This is where I read this: The Cat Fur Trade (http://www.messybeast.com/cat-fur.htm).
Oh my god! I've read this and I'm appalled! Cats skinned while they're alive?! How horrible. I don't have a problem with raising domesticated animals for the fur trade as long as they're treated humanely and their deaths are humane. I couldn't be a meat eater and not hold that position. Yet, it is difficult too difficult to reconcile that position with my love for my big, fat, 17 pound tabby cat. :( I wish such things didn't happen - we always use the animals we domesticate but why can't it be done humanely?

It's weird, I don't have any problem with rabbit skins (although I've had bunnies as pets) but the idea of wearing cat fur just appalls me. I guess because I've always identified too closely with cats. But I've had ferrets too and ferch is a common fur. :(

[Mongrel]

I think people were offended by two things a) that dog and cat skins were passed off as an being from rabbits and

My first question would be - Given the breeding rates between rabbits and cats or dogs...why?

Secondly, what's the laws in Denmark regarding import of live animals? I know in the UK we have a long quarantine period without all sorts of certification.

[Amapola]

Oh my god! I've read this and I'm appalled! Cats skinned while they're alive?! How horrible. I don't have a problem with raising domesticated animals for the fur trade as long as they're treated humanely and their deaths are humane. I couldn't be a meat eater and not hold that position. Yet, it is difficult too difficult to reconcile that position with my love for my big, fat, 17 pound tabby cat. :( I wish such things didn't happen - we always use the animals we domesticate but why can't it be done humanely?

It's weird, I don't have any problem with rabbit skins (although I've had bunnies as pets) but the idea of wearing cat fur just appalls me. I guess because I've always identified too closely with cats. But I've had ferrets too and ferch is a common fur. :(

Supercorgi, I would take those claims with a pound of salt. I know they talk about some horrible stuff but the things that I happen to know about, as I already said, seem pretty exaggerated.

I did once know a fur guy, (he raised mink, not cats of course!) and he used gas. It was humane and painless. All the claims of "it ruins the fur if the animal dies before it is skinned" are pure BS. (And I'm actually speaking from experience, here.) Fur breeders also don't try and keep their animals in small, dirty cages; now that DOES ruin the fur, for crying out loud. I am sure there are people who are really rotten and don't treat their animals well, but those people generally go out of business. If they have not gone out of business, by all means we should try and put them out of business - but not every breeder is the same.

I think these claims are made, are then circulated as "true", and then everyone assumes that EVERY fur breeder is a rotten creep. (And that is actually the plan, from the perspective of fanatic groups like PETA.) Some of them probably are, just like some garbage collectors, some accountants and some fire men are rotten creeps. But it does not mean they all are.

It sounds like China would be the biggest place cats are being raised for fur - that is, if the writer can be trusted at all, there are so many other wrong "facts" in the article. They need a market, of course. Cat fur is illegal in the USA and I think someone said it was illegal in the UK too. If the EU has or does ban it, that would really restrict the market.

[brodski]

They need a market, of course. Cat fur is illegal in the USA and I think someone said it was illegal in the UK too. If the EU has or does ban it, that would really restrict the market.

The process of baning the import of cat fur in the EU has begun, the "manufacture" of at pelts is already illegal in the EU.
The problem will be with illegal import of cat fur and counterfeit products (cat fur passed of as fake fur, or other real fur items). The problem is not with the training and competence of our Trading Standards Officers, it's the fact that there are so few of them.

[Modified]

Cats skinned while they're alive?! How horrible.

There has to be another way.

I know, I know, but there it was just sitting there.

[Lisa Simpson]

I gave up arguing with the group. Apparently, the argument "why would he need to buy cats when he has a mink farm?" was beyond their understanding. Sometimes I forget the rest of the internet isn't as smart as the people who frequent this forum.

[aries]

Do you know if it is legal to buy/breed cats and dogs for the purposes of the fur trade in Denmark?

HI :)

@ Lisa (and everyone else)

I'm not aware of the law regarding this. I'm not a lawyer, let alone a specialist in corporate law or the legal implications of this. But I know that in Denmark, as well as in other countries we do have an Animal Protections Act (or Bill) which
states that animals shouldn't be harmed and that the people harming animals can get a fine or go to jail (if the case is severe enough).

However, I don't think that anyone in Denmark would make such a farm where you breed cats & dogs :( just to get furs from them. (maybe dann knows something about this...)

It is so inbred in our culture that cats & dogs are pets, not animals used for anything else so that if a person would start such a farm, I doubt that the authorities would grant/give the farm a license. And my best guess that this this also (rightly, imo) would get a public outcry against it.

In other parts of the world, say Greenland i.e. - dogs are seen mainly as a means of transportation as they are needed to pull the sleigh.

[Cuddles]

Secondly, what's the laws in Denmark regarding import of live animals? I know in the UK we have a long quarantine period without all sorts of certification.

The main reason for the UK quarantine system is because we're an island that doesn't have many of the diseases that exist on the continent. I don't know about Denmark specifically, but it seems unlikely that any mainland country would bother with a quarantine to keep out diseases they already have.

Some information here (http://www.workindenmark.dk/Pets/0/4/0). It seems very easy to get pets into Denmark, and as long as you kill them quickly and humanely it is perfectly legal to do so. I didn't find anything about skinning them afterwards though, and I'd guess there are stricter rules governing this than simply putting down unwanted pets.