Bigfoot- Anybody Seen one?

[SphereGuy]

I thought WGBH was being patient and answering questions honestly. Not everyone who sees something is a fantasist or an attention seeking liar. Some people actually see things they can't explain, it's happened to me, so why rip them up over it?

[SweatyYeti]

No I have no evidence. We were only having a discussion. Well, I seem to have worn out my welcome. It happens a lot. It was nice talking to a few of you.

Thanks



Hey John...:)....I hope you change your mind, and stick around a while longer.

You haven't really 'worn out your welcome' here. The "skeptics" of Jref just have an extremely strong distaste for any and all evidence pertaining to Bigfoot....so, it's nothing personal.


(A quick reminder.....kitakaze wrote:
"high quality evidence of significant weight to suggest Bigfoot may exist? No. Zilch. )



But, if you do fly......thanks for answering some questions, and giving us Bigfoot proponents some more reason to think that Bigfoot may actually be out there!

[neltana]

Of course WGBH could be making it all up.Without a decent photo or other concrete evidence this discussion is a monumental waste of time and bandwidth.Save it for when we're all sitting aound a campfire.

Sometimes you can learn a lot by listening to people, you know. The guy is being civil and forthcoming, so I really don't understand your upset.

Could he be having us on? Sure. But not everyone who reports this type of thing is making stuff up. Understanding and theorizing about what could be going on (hallucination, the observer being hoaxed, misidentification) can give us perspective and experience when evaluating new reports.

And, if against all odds, he did see a BF, I for one would kinda like to know about it.

[makaya325]

So, while following the wonderful world of bigfoot over the last, say, six-to-eight months, have you not chanced upon mentions of Virginia sightings (discussed by new member wvbig in the "simple question" thread), Oklahoma sightings (discussed at length in numerous MABRC-related threads), Texas sightings (discussed in conjunction with Oklahoma sightings) and Georgia sightings (discussed by the entire BF community from August of last year to just the other day, when a new body was reported found by the selfsame admitted hoaxers)?

Are you even paying attention to the subject you claim to be studying?

I am fully aware of those sightings Vort. I just tend to think that Bigfoot Originated from the pacific northwest. It would seem to be a good hiding place, vaster and more remote than the east.

[makaya325]

No I have no evidence. We were only having a discussion. Well, I seem to have worn out my welcome. It happens a lot. It was nice talking to a few of you.

Thanks

How close were you to the supposed Bigfoot?

[Blackdog]

Do you even read anything here, including the post you quoted?
He said he's leaving.

How close were you to the supposed Bigfoot? He answered that more than once in this thread.
Again, did you even read this thread?

All the lil' mak's can answer that if they want to.

[makaya325]

Do you even read anything here, including the post you quoted?
He said he's leaving.

He answered that more than once in this thread.
Again, did you even read this thread?

All the lil' mak's can answer that if they want to.

Please shut up with your antics.

[William Parcher]

I never believed in demonic possession. Now I do. Mak, I don't know the best way to tell you this, so I'm gonna just give it to you straight. Erik Beckjord is inside you.

[makaya325]

I never believed in demonic possession. Now I do. Mak, I don't know the best way to tell you this, so I'm gonna just give it to you straight. Erik Beckjord is inside you.

Wow. Im a trying my best to contribute to every bf thread, and all i get is negative feedback from two people who have a preconception of me.

[William Parcher]

Wow. Im a trying my best to contribute to every bf thread, and all i get is negative feedback from two people who have a preconception of me.


Possession confirmed. Those are Beckjord's words. We need an Exorcist.

[kitakaze]

Vort,
That is a impressive and thoughtful argument. I actually find your theory does intrigue me and I will keep a open mind to your ideas about what happened to me. Can you do the same for me?

"Bigfoot is not a known, studied, verified or documented organism in any laboratory or scientific paper, beyond the purely speculative. There is no type specimen and no independently corroborated account of its existence.:"

Some of us are working on this problem, it would be nice if we had more help and less criticism.

I'm just getting caught up here but this is excellent and I'm glad I read this. I am proud that when Bigfoot enthusiasts talk about skeptics and the JREF saying that we're full of hatred and simply mock and scoff at people who think they might have seen Bigfoot I can point to this thread and show them they really don't know us at all.

[Blackdog]

Please shut up with your antics.
SHUT UP????? DO you kiss your mother with that mouth?

Again I'll post this old proverb for you,
`It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than to open it and remove all doubt'

Read that over and over and when you think you understand it read it again...that goes for all the lil' mak's.

[Blackdog]

Wow. Im a trying my best to contribute to every bf thread, and all i get is negative feedback from two people who have a preconception of me.
It isn't a preconception, you built your reputation all by yourself. I never even knew you or about you before you started posting here, how can I have any preconception about you?

[kitakaze]

You could be a total fantasist who actually believes the things he makes up,or just a liar,a hoaxer,an attention seeker.You could have experienced an hallucination.I have never met you,I know nothing about you.Any of the above could be true,or there could be other reasons.But you did not see a Bigfoot. I don't drive by,I park here quite a lot.Anyway,if you are not telling a campfire story,what are you doing? Do you have any concrete evidence?No I have no evidence. We were only having a discussion. Well, I seem to have worn out my welcome. It happens a lot. It was nice talking to a few of you.

Thanks

John, you're a tougher guy than that and you absolutely have not worn out your welcome. Dafydd does not represent the whole forum but you have to understand that his perspective is valid. I'm not dafydd and I won't ever categorically state that you didn't see a giant wood ape. You could have. I don't know what you saw and despite what believer fanatics like Sweaty will tell you, noboody else knows either. There are oodles and oodles of noodles who will make claims about seeing Bigfoot, aliens, chupacabras, ghost, Jesus of Nazareth, etc, and dafydd's view is absolutely natural and to be expected. Yet surprisingly you are getting very little of it here.

I'm asking you not to bail when you see a bit of cynicism. You know how to use the ignore feature if you feel it's necessary. We are interested in discussing with you the experience and narrowing down the possibilities. It's interesting and I've been wanting to get into this with you for a while. I actually didn't expect to do it here. I thought we would probably discuss it at Melissa Hovey's board. Considering that they just tossed me out of there with laughable justification and not in accordance with their own rules, this is the only place I can discuss it with you. 'BTW, thank you for letting me know that even as an administrator of the SFB, you abstained from that unfortunate decision to have me taken out of discussions there. Anyway, this is not going to be like the experience you had at the BFF. You are in the company of reasonable, level-headed, and dispassionately interested people. I think xblade and dafydd's comment are the worst you'll get and they're not so very bad at all.

I'll be frank, John. I want to help you in whatever small way I can. People like Melissa say that we do nothing positive and do nothing to help. I think this is positive and helpful. I want you to get out from under a debilitating state. You can't even get in the woods without Billy Willard and that's just know way to live. That's a heavy irrational fear and the first step is to come to terms with it. Look again at all those pictures of Vancouver Island I posted:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4721277

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4748351&postcount=120

Not being able to step into places like that without Billy talking you through for fear of that creature in your mind sucks. I put it on the same level as not being able to have sex because of a past traumatic experience. There is a way for you to get out from under your fears and live like a free man again.

Stick around and maybe we can help you with that.

[kitakaze]

Please shut up with your antics.

SHUT UP????? DO you kiss your mother with that mouth?

Serenity now seems to be losing its potency.

Okey dokey. Time for the big guns...

Bollywood break!:

bIkM1W3U1Zc

[kitakaze]

Wow. Im a trying my best to contribute to every bf thread, and all i get is negative feedback from two people who have a preconception of me.

It's because they see what are indicators that you haven't really abandoned Bigfoot belief:

You said the Eastern United States, Vort. The truth is that Bigfoot sightings, whether real or imaginary, tend to come more from the western part of the country.

I am fully aware of those sightings Vort. I just tend to think that Bigfoot Originated from the pacific northwest. It would seem to be a good hiding place, vaster and more remote than the east.

You may be holding onto to that belief and have modified it to one where you you think about Bigfoot as some very, very rare hominid that lives in secret valleys of Cascadia. You told me you have a romantic desire to believe things like Bigfoot, yeti, yeren, etc. That's your prerogative but it's effecting your arguments presented as those of a skeptic.

I've already shown you that 2/3 of sightings come from outside the PNW. Let's get back to John's experience.

[kitakaze]

Hey John...:)....I hope you change your mind, and stick around a while longer.

You haven't really 'worn out your welcome' here. The "skeptics" of Jref just have an extremely strong distaste for any and all evidence pertaining to Bigfoot....so, it's nothing personal.

Lies.

Reliable evidence, unambiguous images of Bigfoot = yum.


(A quick reminder.....kitakaze wrote:
"high quality evidence of significant weight to suggest Bigfoot may exist? No. Zilch. )

Sucks, hey? Try asking John that question. Wait, you're intellectual cowardice would prevent that from happening so I'll do it for you.

Hey, John. Quick question:

Do you think there is any high quality evidence of significant weight to suggest Bigfoot may exist? I am not talking about just for you but in general.

Thanks. You seem to have a far better grasp on reality than Sweaty does and I remembered this statement from SFB:

Sorry to dissapoint you KK, but I have not found any solid evidence of Bigfoot this year. Unless you count that I was present when other ABS members found possible tracks in April. I did hear and smell things that weekend in Salt Fork, but never had a visual, so it could have been anything.

In the past year I have been out in the field over 30 times in Virginia, Ohio, PA, and Washington. Nada, nothing. But I cant wait to get out there and try again.

I am just so thankful to be able to get out there in the woods.


Back to Sweaty:

But, if you do fly......thanks for answering some questions, and giving us Bigfoot proponents some more reason to think that Bigfoot may actually be out there!

Giving you more reason to believe in Bigfoot is like giving a terrier more reason to hump plush toys. It's going to happen no matter what.

:scorgi:heartbeat::bunnyface:bearface:

[LTC8K6]

You can smell a skunk's spray a good distance and there's no doubt what you are smelling.

I'm thinking that everyone in the area should be commenting on the smell.

Now I'm talking to myself... :D

[Blackdog]

It's because they see what are indicators that you haven't really abandoned Bigfoot belief.
Please don't assume to speak for me. You're as much to blame as he is for his BS. You encouraged him. I think you looked at him as your pet project.

I don't care about his bigfoot belief one way or the other.
He and his friends are playing this board, like all the others he's posted on, for fools.
He(they) Google relevant topics and post them here whether they understand what they are saying or not.

How are his postings any better than any other goofball who posts on any other board?

Screw his age...when I was 20 I at least attempted to form a sentence and tried to think for myself.

[Archangel]

Archangel, if you're familiar with breezes, you might also explain how such an intense odor can have arrived at the recipient's nostrils from fifty yards -- half the length of an American football field -- away.

Yep.

The thing about breezes is they can be directional and they can also carry scents towards you as well as dissipating them once the source of the odour is gone.

This is easily testable if you'd like to do an experiment:

Get a fish from your local fishmonger and place it in a airtight container in your garage, leave it there for a few days.

The fish will start to rot, but no smell should escape as it's an airtight container.
Place a small electric fan behind the container.

Have a friend or family member stand by the fish (but not blocking the fan) and have you stand in the furthest corner away from the fish.

Have your friend open the container, they'll smell the aroma almost immediately whilst you wont smell anything.

Have your friend then turn the fan on to it's lowest setting, the aroma will then drift over to you quite quickly (alternatively for natural dispersion you can leave the fan off and it will still eventually drift over there).

Then to test the ability for scents to dissipate over time, remove the rotting fish and keep the fan on.

The smell will linger for a while and then disappear, although it's possible that you will continue to smell it for a while longer due to the natural oils in the fish clinging to your nostrils.

Now given that WGBH has also said the smell started before the creature was 50 yds away, I think the benefit of the doubt can be given to my experiment with regards to distance.

Once again, I don't believe that WGBH encountered Bigfoot (mainly because it doesn't exist) however that being said, jumping through increasingly ridiculous hoops to claim that his having a Hallucination is the cause of him smelling something unpleasant is the antithesis of Ockham's Razor.

In my opinion he is more likely to have smelled himself a bear, which can be pretty damn rank in my understanding, than it is that he hallucinated the smell.

We know smells exist, we know smells can dissipate from an area once the source is removed and we know that smells can linger in ones nostrils without lingering in the area itself, therefore the claim I responded to (specifically no one else smelled it therefore it does not exist) is not exactly a realistic answer.


To Kitikaze:
Your patience in dealing with MakayaTheTroll is amazing, I'm assuming you're not actually Mahatma Ghandi right?

[WGBH]

Lies.
[B]Hey, John. Quick question:

Do you think there is any high quality evidence of significant weight to suggest Bigfoot may exist? I am not talking about just for you but in general.

:scorgi:heartbeat::bunnyface:bearface:

That is a loaded question KK. The only "high quality" evidence that would suggest Bigfoot exists would be a type specimen. Alive or Dead. (I am no kill of course)

Now a clear, quality video or picture of a Squatch could possibly be enough to get the proper authorities involved in the research. This would be nice.

BTW, I will be around, but I do not think it is in my best interest to talk about my sighting anymore. People are starting to get wound up about it (pro and con). I would just like to be able to participate and contribute to this forum on the Bigfoot threads, not cause problems or arguments. I am here for my education and hopefully to get new research ideas. I am not here to fight.

[lightfire22000]

I saw a gigantic raccoon in the shadow of a wild turkey in my yard and I thought it was one animal for a second.

[William Parcher]

John, it's great to see you back. I honestly enjoy conversing with you and you have been so patient and cooperative with my umpteen questions.

Now, I know that mak has been acting strange in this thread but there is something you should know. You may want to talk to him because his uncle is suffering from what seems to be the same situation as you are. Mak talked about this early last year.



makaya325's Uncle saw a Bigfoot and has been traumatized ever since! (http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=119733)

my uncle, a big game hunter who hunters moose, deer, and bear, was hunting with a friend in maine and had found footprints 17 inches long in imprinted as deep as bear footprints. he told me he followed the tracks with his hunting partner, and this went for at least a mile or 2,and he saw what appeared to be a "gorilla like animal which walked on 2 legs, and had a bad odor. my uncle wasnt sure what it was, and thats why he didnt shoot, since he had only 2 bullets left in his rifle. my uncle was afraid to talk about his sighting, and he being a "macho hunter" broke down in tears telling his sighting and felt if he tried to harm the animal, it would kill him. i never saw my uncle cry like this in my life, and my aunt tells me he doesnt want to talk about it again bc he fears being laughed at.

[WGBH]

John, it's great to see you back. I honestly enjoy conversing with you and you have been so patient and cooperative with my umpteen questions.
]

William, your questions were fine and If you want to talk more about it, feel free to PM them to me.

[Vortigern99]

It occurs to me that we were engaged in a polite and reasoned discussion, a fruitful exchange of ideas, before the thread was hijacked by personality clashes and unnecessary criticism. If we could give WGBH the benefit of the doubt, and treat him with respect as a sincere and truthful person, while using Sagan's so-called "Baloney Detection Kit" (not meant as a slight to the claimant) to analyze the claims being made, we might be able to make some ground here.

We were talking about the overwhelming odor WGBH associated with the animal he witnessed. I suggested that the odor, if objectively real, might have derived from some other unseen but nearby source, such as a refuse heap or decomposing carcass. Archangel seems to think the odor might have emanated from a bear, which I cannot reject as a reasonable possibility without having experienced the odor myself.

WGBH, if you're still willing to talk about your sighting in a respectful yet investigative environment, would you care to comment on these observations? Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide.

[LONGTABBER PE]

That is a loaded question KK. The only "high quality" evidence that would suggest Bigfoot exists would be a type specimen. Alive or Dead. (I am no kill of course)

Now a clear, quality video or picture of a Squatch could possibly be enough to get the proper authorities involved in the research. This would be nice.

BTW, I will be around, but I do not think it is in my best interest to talk about my sighting anymore. People are starting to get wound up about it (pro and con). I would just like to be able to participate and contribute to this forum on the Bigfoot threads, not cause problems or arguments. I am here for my education and hopefully to get new research ideas. I am not here to fight.

John, Dont let a few antagonists get to you- we value your contributions and honesty here

[kitakaze]

That is a loaded question KK. The only "high quality" evidence that would suggest Bigfoot exists would be a type specimen. Alive or Dead. (I am no kill of course)

Now a clear, quality video or picture of a Squatch could possibly be enough to get the proper authorities involved in the research. This would be nice.

It's not meant to be a loaded question. A loaded question is intellectually dishonest and to get you to say something you don't agree with. Your answer amounts to no and shows you are realistic. But what you fail to consider is that if there were matching dermals fro the same trackway, that would be not impossible to fake but under the right conditions, it could be profound. Also this can be said about separate DNA samples that are not human, not a known animal, but a match for each other. That would be great as well. I can think about a number of things, including unambiguous images of good provenance that can be reliable evidence.

BTW, I will be around, but I do not think it is in my best interest to talk about my sighting anymore. People are starting to get wound up about it (pro and con). I would just like to be able to participate and contribute to this forum on the Bigfoot threads, not cause problems or arguments. I am here for my education and hopefully to get new research ideas. I am not here to fight.

Really? I am asking you as a person that respects you and likes your contibutions to reconsider. Two people, xblade and dafydd, were cynical to you. Only two. I doubt they will continue and if they do I will ask politely for those reasonable people to stop. I can't make them stop. They're welcome to their perspectives but I don't think they'll be nasty to you.

It's far better than turtling and keeping that gripping fear you've held onto so long.

[SweatyYeti]

Just a few thoughts, from our local, open-minded skeptics....looking to discuss the evidence for Bigfoot...:)...


kitakaze wrote:
Such an animal as Bigfoot being a large bipedal non-human primate is not impossible in any manner of the word. Totally fine.

Such an animal living, eating, pooping, humping, and dying across the NA continent with no type specimen is beyond ludicrous. Anybody who thinks otherwise needs a reality check.


kitakaze wrote:
Sightings can be interesting but they aren't reliable evidence.

If people kept going into the Carmannah Valley or Gifford Pinchot and seeing Bigfoots consistently there only that would be more interesting than what we have now.
You guys are talking about hundreds of sightings all over the continent every year thinking that's persuasive and you don't even realize you're making yourselves look like idiots.


kitz wrote:

Sweaty, when confronted by the absurdity of Bigfoot existing across North America ..... decides to remedy the situation by compounding the problem globally.



Drewbot wrote:
Thank you Sweaty.

You're point about hairy-beast-sightings extending throughout the entire world, is the second most damning factoid about the Bigfoot myth.

#1 There is no reliable evidence or proof of bigfoot's existence

#2 The fact that hairy beasts are reported by human beings in every forested area of the world, and rural areas, leads one to believe that Bigfoot is not a physical entity, but a psychological and/or neurological one.

Maybe it is a universally-human thing, to see the big hairy boogy man in non-urban places.



More recently...

Longtabber wrote:
John, Dont let a few antagonists get to you- we Value :covereyes your contributions and honesty here


Vortigern wrote:
If we could give WGBH the benefit of the doubt, and treat him with respect as a sincere and truthful person, while using Sagan's so-called "Baloney Detection Kit" (not meant as a slight to the claimant) to analyze the claims being made, we might be able to make some ground here.



"Make some ground here"???......pardon me while I laugh. :D

[kitakaze]

Please don't assume to speak for me. You're as much to blame as he is for his BS. You encouraged him. I think you looked at him as your pet project.

*sigh* BD, sometimes I get the distinct impression you seek out conflict. I encouraged little mak absolutely - to think critically. I need no mini-me's but I do have a pet project - getting people to think realistically about Bigfoot. I like it. I find it mentally stimulating. I consider Vort's turnaround to be by far the best I've seen in a while. Little mak can work his kinks out or be a nuisance, it's his choice. I will only continue to address false claims and poor reasoning. I'm certainly not going to bicker with you over nothing.

Try not to read motivations in me that aren't there. You can guess but when I tell you staright what the deal is, please don't think I'm going to be dishonest with you.

I don't care about his bigfoot belief one way or the other.
He and his friends are playing this board, like all the others he's posted on, for fools.
He(they) Google relevant topics and post them here whether they understand what they are saying or not.

How are his postings any better than any other goofball who posts on any other board?

Screw his age...when I was 20 I at least attempted to form a sentence and tried to think for myself.

You still think makaya is multiple people. I don't. I know his writing and he sends me PM's asking me questions all the time. He romantically likes the idea od Bigfoot. He may grow out of it or he may continue to fool around on discussion boards. When he asks me a question or says something wrong I'll tell him what I think.

I don't need pets, dog. Concubines maybe. Not pets.

[kitakaze]

In my opinion he is more likely to have smelled himself a bear, which can be pretty damn rank in my understanding, than it is that he hallucinated the smell.

Sure, there's no reason why he couldn't have smelt an animal or plant he was unfamiliar with. Of course, there's always the answer that...

maybe he farted.

He just might have made a Dutch Oven in the deer stand and made himself nauseous.:D

To Kitikaze:
Your patience in dealing with MakayaTheTroll is amazing, I'm assuming you're not actually Mahatma Ghandi right?

Thanks, angel. :)

I'm not Ghandi but he has a great smile:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Portrait_Gandhi.jpg

I do have an Aum tattoo, though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Om.svg

It gives me good vibrations...

JK!

[WGBH]

It's far better than turtling and keeping that gripping fear you've held onto so long.

I am going to the Dismal Swamp State Park this Saturday. I am going alone.

[skullerello]

Once, I scared a young lady who was driving the car I was riding in. I clearly witnessed a motorcyclist stop directly in front of us while we were driving, and almost caused a pile-up on the county lane we were motoring along; I was tired, I was in hipnogogic dream-state, and there was no such motorcyclist ahead of us. It was all in my imagination.
Could it be that your "bigfoot encounter" occurred under similar circumstances?!

[Archangel]

We were talking about the overwhelming odor WGBH associated with the animal he witnessed. I suggested that the odor, if objectively real, might have derived from some other unseen but nearby source, such as a refuse heap or decomposing carcass. Archangel seems to think the odor might have emanated from a bear, which I cannot reject as a reasonable possibility without having experienced the odor myself.

WGBH, if you're still willing to talk about your sighting in a respectful yet investigative environment, would you care to comment on these observations? Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide.

Actually, just to clarify my position I have no idea what he smelled and don't want to say that it might've emanated from a bear.
I just feel that a physical source of odour cannot be ruled out as less likely than a hallucinated one.

I do have to ask for some clarification from someone who knows the area in question, the swamps I've been to here in Australia all smell bloody awful for the most part does the one in question have a similar sort of odour?

As I understand it the odour that occurs in swamps can be attributed to the rotting vegetation and animals, coupled with the moistness of the area.
The rotting process can lead to build ups of noxious smelling gases, especially if trapped under the usual layer of mud that is in a swamp.

If expelled this could create a small pocket of less oxygenated air, which could potentially have a foul smell (ie swamp gas).

The lack of oxygen in the area could bring on some of the symptoms that WGBH described (ie nausea etc) and if he was feeling faint enough it's also possible that he may have started to hallucinate things.

It could also explain why the rest of the group did not smell anything by the time they got back, it had dissipated.

Note:
I'm not claiming this is what happened, nor that it's even likely just that it might be another possible explanation.

[kitakaze]

I am going to the Dismal Swamp State Park this Saturday. I am going alone.

Cool! Why? Will you go to the area where you had your sighting?

Are you apprehensive about it?

BTW, isn't it nice discover skeptics are human, too, and this place isn't full of hatred?

[kitakaze]

I saw a gigantic raccoon in the shadow of a wild turkey in my yard and I thought it was one animal for a second.

I'm sorry, lightfire but you'll just have to try harder if you want to impress us with raccoon antics. Our bar has been set pretty high...

http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/game-cam-coon.jpg

:D

[WGBH]

Cool! Why? Will you go to the area where you had your sighting?

Are you apprehensive about it?

BTW, isn't it nice discover skeptics are human, too, and this place isn't full of hatred?

I am going there because I want to get outside this weekend. I have to go alone because I have no other researchers around my area to go with me. I am going to the Dismal Swamp State park. It is only a few miles from the area of my sighting. No I have never been there before. I will be going during the day and I am just going to walk some trails, so I should be OK.If I see a Ranger or a Ranger station, maybe ask a few questions.

[learner]

Once, I scared a young lady who was driving the car I was riding in. I clearly witnessed a motorcyclist stop directly in front of us while we were driving, and almost caused a pile-up on the county lane we were motoring along; I was tired, I was in hipnogogic dream-state, and there was no such motorcyclist ahead of us. It was all in my imagination.
Could it be that your "bigfoot encounter" occurred under similar circumstances?!

Similar story to report. Dark lane, me driving tired, a massive mound of soil appears in the middle of the road just after a bend. I had no time to stop and braced myself as i applied hard braking. I ended up sideways across the lane. I assumed i had missed it somehow and got out to look, Nothing! just a clear lane. I was so tired i was hallucinating. I can still see that mound of soil in my minds eye. Even the colour of the soil.

[JohnWS]

Some time ago (perhaps a couple of years) I'm sure I found some information on-line regarding some 'apparitions' being experienced after a bend in the road.

I think it was suggesting highway hypnosis may somehow trigger the experience due to the added stimulus of bend in the road. I'm sure it also linked this theory to some cultural 'demonic manifestations'. I immediately thought of those bigfoot sightings that are allegedly experienced by drivers.

However, I never saved the link and never found it again. Perhaps it was an hallucination :D. I wish I could find it again!

[Drewbot]

JOHNWS
Many drivers who are falling asleep at the wheel 'see' things just before they go off the road. Many 1 car accident victims will say there was a tire in the road, or a horse in the road, and after investigating, the officer will find evidence of neither.

These are usually considered a falling-asleep-at the wheel incident.

[JohnWS]

It's purely this bend in the road thing that is bugging me (though there may well be nothing too it). I think I even mentioned it to you at the time - I certainly remember seeing reference to police officers investigating an accident only to find the alleged tyre was not present after all.

Edit: It seems after all that I may be suffering from a faulty memory in this case. Googling various permutations of what I was trying to find lead me to a particular alleged 'haunting'. That lead me to look through a book I have. What do I find? A suggestion that some UFO & ghost sightings may be the result of drivers experiencing internally generated phenomena triggered by concentration followed by a sudden change in circumstance - such as a bend in the road!

Perhaps it was an hallucination :D. I wish I could find it again!

[Vortigern99]

Time and again in this thread, we've been introduced to evidence that hallucination is a known and studied human phenomenon, often experienced as a one-time event by otherwise sane and normal persons, with no stigma attached to the phenomenon.

WGBH, no one likes to admit to being duped, especially by the workings of one's own mind; and given your apparently negative outlook on people who have hallucinations, it's understandable that you don't want to consider too deeply the likelihood that you are one of them.

Nonetheless, I invite you to put aside your personal feelings about hallucinations and those who experience them, and to consider empirically that your sighting may very well have been one such instance. The facts of the event as you've reported them -- your hunger, lack of sleep, nausea, collapse, isolation, a new and unfamiliar environment -- are all fully consistent with the conditions we can expect for hallucination to occur.

Others here have been forthcoming with their anecdotal accounts of hallucination. Kitakaze has described in detail the demonic/spectral entity he sometimes sees during one of his recurring episodes of sleep paralysis. Learner and skullerero have both described their road-visions which were almost certainly hypnagogic hallucinations. I myself have experienced mild hypnagogic hallucinations (dreaming about features of the room I'm sleeping in while my eyes are open observing them). No one here is deriding or ostracizing us for being "insane" or mentally incompetent.

If you will examine objectively the facts of your sighting, taking all possibilities into account, you will likely see that there is no cause to reject the most likely, scientific and consistent explanation: that you had a hypnagogic (between sleep and waking) or hypnopompic (post-waking) hallucination.

[Telaynay's G'son]

I'm not (scientifically) sure exactly what we observed but a 14' towerstand similar to the one in the attachment was slammed over within 45 minutes of the observation.

The next day, examination of the stand location revealed no evidence of the struggle necessary (stand weighs ~1200+ lbs. and was nailed to an adjacent tree w/landscape nails) to topple it (one partial heel foot print was found) as it took five grown men and a 1500# winch on a 4WATV to right it.

Go figure...


http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x105/Yuchi1/12-14-2007-50.jpg

[kitakaze]

JohnWS, your avatar is awesome. You have a Bootsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootsy_Collins)foot!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtAFObZVINA&feature=related

[William Parcher]

You have a Bootsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootsy_Collins)foot!


Ahhhh yes, the Motor-Booty Affair. I am Sir Nose and I knows how it goes.

[JohnWS]

Thank you Kit' - that is indeed the source inspiration for my avatar :cool:.

[makaya325]

Please don't assume to speak for me. You're as much to blame as he is for his BS. You encouraged him. I think you looked at him as your pet project.

I don't care about his bigfoot belief one way or the other.
He and his friends are playing this board, like all the others he's posted on, for fools.
He(they) Google relevant topics and post them here whether they understand what they are saying or not.

How are his postings any better than any other goofball who posts on any other board?

Screw his age...when I was 20 I at least attempted to form a sentence and tried to think for myself.

Why do you like attacking every word i post? Do you have a grudge against me? Do you hate me?

[Pywacket]

I usually just lurk around this site and having spent some time now reading this thread I feel the need to a least post just this one time on WGBH's behalf. Please keep in mind that this is only my opinion, based upon my own experiences with "bigfoot-like" creatures in the woods. ;)

John is pretty brave to be posting his experience on this site, for sure, and I am duly impressed at how well he is being treated here, for the most part.

However, I just have to say that I think it is ludicrous for John to accept any other explanation for his encounter except for what it is. He saw a bigfoot-like creature. I believe him.

I wrote a dissertation awhile back on the BFF, that I expounded on more in one of my blog writings, concerning the different personalities in the "bigfoot community". Part of it concerned the differences between "believers" and "knowers".

The difference between John and some others is that John is a "knower", not a "believer". You can "believe" all the evidence (whether it is scientific or not) that you want, but until you have your own sighting, you can never be a "knower". Whether he likes it or not, John is in the class of "Knowers".

Only those who "believe" in bigfoot will argue with a skeptic. Those that "know" these creatures exist won't waste their time. It is something like a Christian arguing with an Atheist about religion. It is a no-winner, for either side.

If you will examine objectively the facts of your sighting, taking all possibilities into account, you will likely see that there is no cause to reject the most likely, scientific and consistent explanation: that you had a hypnagogic (between sleep and waking) or hypnopompic (post-waking) hallucination.


I am not a amateur psychiatrist, like some folks here, however I truly believe that those that claim to have had hypnagogic or hypnopompic hallucinations must be truly weak minded to believe that malarkey and to believe that it applies to John's experience. (Don't take it personal, I am not slamming anybody in particular).

John may be weak willed, but he sure as hell is not weak minded. Anybody that has read his postings on the various forums/messages boards can attest to that.

You guys have been so busy sharpening Occam's Razor in this thread that it has become a dull blade. John has posted his encounter. He has never wavered from what he has originally stated concerning his encounter. I think he has done a pretty good job, considering he was 17 when it happened. I am sure there could be more learned from him, however, his PTSD over the incident probably has closed his mind off to some of the events and he can't recall everything.

One thing I would like to mention, that I hope John finds useful in his quest to unravel this mystery, is that based upon my own experiences with these creatures, I believe that John's encounter involved not one, but two creatures. These creatures hardly ever hunt singularly. They almost always tag-team. I am not sure what the purpose is when they are foraging for plant foodstuffs, unless one is supposed to stand watch while the other eats. When hunting live prey, one seems to always drive the prey into an ambush by the other.

I find it doubtful, that the one that John saw, put "the stink" on him. There is no indication in John's report that the creature passed by his deer stand, before he stepped out in front of him. Given that John was guesstimating that the creature was approximately 50 yds in front of him, I find it doubtful that any smell was being given off from the creature that John could have smelled. I believe that the "stink" that John smelled probably came from the other creature that was hiding in the brush closer to the deer stand.

(Oh, and speaking of the "stink" that John got a whiff of, just like a "creature sighting", there is no way a person can ever truly describe the "smell". It is like nothing you have ever smelled before and once you smell it, you will never forget it. It will make your eyes water and can very well make you "sick to your stomach".)

I don't believe these creatures are harmful to humans, however, it is not the one you see in the woods that you should be worried about, it is his partner hiding behind you in the brush that should give you cause for reflection. :) I can only imagine how much more John's reaction would be if he ascertained that another creature was closer to the deer stand during his encounter.

Of course, like I said earlier in this post, these are only my opinions, base upon my own experience with these creatures. I am not here to post about my experiences. Just to give John some "food for thought" concerning his own encounter.

The only other thing that I would tell John is that I wouldn't let a bad experience when I was 17 keep me from going out and having some fun in the woods.

I think you should buck up, go out into the woods, find the sucker and kick him in the ass! ;)

[Vortigern99]

I am not a amateur psychiatrist, like some folks here, however I truly believe that those that claim to have had hypnagogic or hypnopompic hallucinations must be truly weak minded to believe that malarkey and to believe that it applies to John's experience. (Don't take it personal, I am not slamming anybody in particular).

John may be weak willed, but he sure as hell is not weak minded. Anybody that has read his postings on the various forums/messages boards can attest to that.

Pywacket, if you're implying that by stating my opinion that hallucination is the most likely explanation here, I am an "amateur psychiatrist", my response is that deductive reasoning, and logical analysis of claims, are not the sole province of degreed professionals. They can also be applied by laymen and/or experts in other fields of study.

I said before, and you might have missed this or perhaps find it irrelevant, that in preparation for an unpublished novel, I researched sleep paralysis and hypnagogic hallucination at some length, and wrote about the phenomenon from a first-person, subjective viewpoint. I have also experienced mild episodes on several occasions. This is as much to say that I understand the phenomenon and feel qualified to opine where it appears to be happening, or to have happened.

So, by your phrasing "those that claim to have had hypnagogic or hypnopompic hallucinations must be truly weak minded to believe that malarkey", do you mean to suggest that Kitakaze, for one, actually wrestles with spectres or demonic entities during his sleep, which supernaturally vanish on his waking? That Learner and Skullerero actually witnessed objectively real objects on the road, which then vanished into thin air, and/or which a companion, namely the driver, never saw? That is an interesting claim.

I wonder what you would make of the numerous scientific studies investigating the phenomena of sleep paralysis and hypnagogic hallucination? Is your contention that the investigators in those studies are "weak minded" and believe in "malarkey", because they have concluded that these are effects of the mind, as opposed to real demonic entities that torture people, invisibly to others I might add, while the victims sleep?

Again, you make the most fascinating claims.

[drapier]

One thing I would like to mention, that I hope John finds useful in his quest to unravel this mystery, is that based upon my own experiences with these creatures, I believe that John's encounter involved not one, but two creatures. These creatures hardly ever hunt singularly. They almost always tag-team. I am not sure what the purpose is when they are foraging for plant foodstuffs, unless one is supposed to stand watch while the other eats. When hunting live prey, one seems to always drive the prey into an ambush by the other.




It sounds as if you have had multiple encounters with these creatures. Would you care to tell us about an encounter or two? Do you take a camera with you when you go out to watch them?

[William Parcher]

It occurs to me that John's BF encounter presents a real paradox. Why hasn't somebody killed one yet? They are often described as highly intelligent and wary. Yet this BF exposed itself for a good length of time near a deer stand that also happened to contain a hunter with a rifle. Some other hunter in that situation, seeing the shaggy 9x6 ape creature, and being as certain as John was, would have changed the entire world by aiming and shooting a huge target. Even a non-lethal shot would provide DNA-rich blood.

John's Bigfoot showed that these creatures will expose themselves and apparently not perceive of the danger that a human-constructed hunting stand could present to them. It did not study or determine the fact that the stand contained a lethal threat. It did not avoid the side of the stand with the mail-slot opening that brings death.

John's Bigfoot showed that these creatures are very vulnerable to humans and it makes one wonder why they have not been scientifically confirmed because of this.

[Blackdog]

*sigh* BD, sometimes I get the distinct impression you seek out conflict.
I wouldn't say I seek it out, I think it's more being honest and saying what's on my mind if I feel I want to. Sometimes I'm right and other times I wrong to do so. You might do the same thing too.
I encouraged little mak absolutely - to think critically. I need no mini-me's but I do have a pet project - getting people to think realistically about Bigfoot. I like it. I find it mentally stimulating. I consider Vort's turnaround to be by far the best I've seen in a while. It's kind of easy on a skeptics board considering that a true skeptic is already a critical thinker.
I see you post at SFB, why not BFF? If you really want a challenge you should try it there. You could be the first of many who have tried and haven't achieved the desired results.
Some of those would include me, Wolftrax, RayG, SG, Tube, Longtabber, Desertyeti, JohnWS, Dfoot (sorry if I left anyone out) not to mention many of the oldtime regulars there who don't post here but are still beating there heads against the wall trying to get people to try and use an ounce of critical thinking.

Little mak can work his kinks out or be a nuisance, it's his choice.I'm not sure he has a choice, maybe Mak is what he is.

I will only continue to address false claims and poor reasoning. I'm certainly not going to bicker with you over nothing.I'm not interested in bickering either, and you are welcome to try and get inside of lil' mak's head all you want, I just don't appreciate people speaking on my behalf when they have no idea why I said what I did.

Try not to read motivations in me that aren't there. You can guess but when I tell you staright what the deal is, please don't think I'm going to be dishonest with you.I would appreciate the same courtesy.


You still think makaya is multiple people. I don't. I know his writing and he sends me PM's asking me questions all the time. He romantically likes the idea od Bigfoot. He may grow out of it or he may continue to fool around on discussion boards. When he asks me a question or says something wrong I'll tell him what I think.His posting style has settled down into something more recognizable as one person lately, but you have to admit there have been times he's bounced around from nearly illiterate to almost scholarly. Lately he seems more like a 12 year old.

I don't need pets, dog. Concubines maybe. Not pets.I have two dogs and a cat but a concubine might be nice. Does my wife have to know? :p

[clayflingythingy]

Since BF is a creature of myth, those who think they have seen one need to search for other explantions.

One of my most vivid memories from my childhood was seeing Santus Claus peeping in on me to see if I was "naughty or nice". As a child I thought I saw Santa. As an adult I think I was the victim of an halucination brought on by excitement.

Same with BF. BF doesn't exist so other explanations must be sought.

[makaya325]

Since BF is a creature of myth, those who think they have seen one need to search for other explantions.

One of my most vivid memories from my childhood was seeing Santus Claus peeping in on me to see if I was "naughty or nice". As a child I thought I saw Santa. As an adult I think I was the victim of an halucination brought on by excitement.

Same with BF. BF doesn't exist so other explanations must be sought.

Not only is it non-existent, but something like that Never could have existed.

[Vortigern99]

And yet you expressed to me in a PM only two weeks ago that you believed in BF's existence. And in this very thread, you've opined that BF is more likely to exist in the PNW than anywhere else in NA. How could a non-existent creature be "more likely" to exist in one location than another? Either you think it exists or you don't. Which is it?

[makaya325]

And yet you expressed to me in a PM only two weeks ago that you believed in BF's existence. And in this very thread, you've opined that BF is more likely to exist in the PNW than anywhere else in NA. How could a non-existent creature be "more likely" to exist in one location than another? Either you think it exists or you don't. Which is it?

I would LIKE for it to exist. I guess you can call me romantic. I really want them to exist.

What i believe is that it is incredibly unlikely for the largest NA Mammal to have never been run over, found dead/alive, no fossils, no scat, no nothing. While i do not think it is even real, I BELIEVE that The Bigfoot Phenomona is mainly a Pacific Northwest kind of thing.

[Vortigern99]

Hey, good answer. I want them to exist, too. In that, we agree. The problem, of course, is that there isn't any non-hoaxable, non-anecdotal, independently verifiable evidence for them. But now I'm screwing a dead chimp, so I'll stop.

[William Parcher]

His posting style has settled down into something more recognizable as one person lately, but you have to admit there have been times he's bounced around from nearly illiterate to almost scholarly. Lately he seems more like a 12 year old.


Mak is rather easy to find in the various forums that talk about Bigfoot. It is his habit to create sock puppets on these forums. At present, he is a number of different "people" on the BFF. When the BFF banned "blue bear" and "duke of earl", they simply clipped two toenails. Those were both mak and he lied when he said the duke was a friend.

His "new man" thread here is a scam. He didn't have any epiphany provided by KKZ and Correa. During his years and 1000's of posts on Unexplained Mysteries Forum, he battled with some sharp BF skeptics who explained the exact same things we do here. He's been through this over and over and over already. His makaya325 persona was banned there, but he wears the socks and so he rolls on.

A new man is meaningless as it only means the mak, in this forum, is going to act like a BF skeptic. He picks up a different microphone when he makes his posts on BFF. He is quite the storyteller where the Bigfooters gather. But of course, it's still little mak doing the talking. The naive boy who simply wants to learn is just another persona.

A troll. A human factory cranking out sock puppets like a chicken laying eggs. He is very experienced with that stuff, and UMF and BFF are his playgrounds. We all seek our own pastimes. Mak has chosen his. Itz just another day on teh internets.

[makaya325]

Mak is rather easy to find in the various forums that talk about Bigfoot. It is his habit to create sock puppets on these forums. At present, he is a number of different "people" on the BFF. When the BFF banned "blue bear" and "duke of earl", they simply clipped two toenails. Those were both mak and he lied when he said the duke was a friend.

His "new man" thread here is a scam. He didn't have any epiphany provided by KKZ and Correa. During his years and 1000's of posts on Unexplained Mysteries Forum, he battled with some sharp BF skeptics who explained the exact same things we do here. He's been through this over and over and over already. His makaya325 persona was banned there, but he wears the socks and so he rolls on.

A new man is meaningless as it only means the mak, in this forum, is going to act like a BF skeptic. He picks up a different microphone when he makes his posts on BFF. He is quite the storyteller where the Bigfooters gather. But of course, it's still little mak doing the talking. The naive boy who simply wants to learn is just another persona.

A troll. A human factory cranking out sock puppets like a chicken laying eggs. He is very experienced with that stuff, and UMF and BFF are his playgrounds. We all seek our own pastimes. Mak has chosen his. Itz just another day on teh internets.

Why dont you consider the fact that i am growing up, and am becoming more skeptical of bigfoot, and rethinking my former beliefs?

[WGBH]

(Oh, and speaking of the "stink" that John got a whiff of, just like a "creature sighting", there is no way a person can ever truly describe the "smell". It is like nothing you have ever smelled before and once you smell it, you will never forget it. It will make your eyes water and can very well make you "sick to your stomach".)
;)

Everyone who has been asking me to describe the smell, Pywacket just described it very well.

I am sorry, I need to take a break from answering these questions right now. No one has done anything wrong, my health is not good at the moment. I apologize and I thank you for being kind. I will be OK soon and return.

[learner]

I usually just lurk around this site and having spent some time now reading this thread I feel the need to a least post just this one time on WGBH's behalf. Please keep in mind that this is only my opinion, based upon my own experiences with "bigfoot-like" creatures in the woods. ;)

John is pretty brave to be posting his experience on this site, for sure, and I am duly impressed at how well he is being treated here, for the most part.

However, I just have to say that I think it is ludicrous for John to accept any other explanation for his encounter except for what it is. He saw a bigfoot-like creature. I believe him.

I wrote a dissertation awhile back on the BFF, that I expounded on more in one of my blog writings, concerning the different personalities in the "bigfoot community". Part of it concerned the differences between "believers" and "knowers".

The difference between John and some others is that John is a "knower", not a "believer". You can "believe" all the evidence (whether it is scientific or not) that you want, but until you have your own sighting, you can never be a "knower". Whether he likes it or not, John is in the class of "Knowers".

Only those who "believe" in bigfoot will argue with a skeptic. Those that "know" these creatures exist won't waste their time. It is something like a Christian arguing with an Atheist about religion. It is a no-winner, for either side.




I am not a amateur psychiatrist, like some folks here, however I truly believe that those that claim to have had hypnagogic or hypnopompic hallucinations must be truly weak minded to believe that malarkey and to believe that it applies to John's experience. (Don't take it personal, I am not slamming anybody in particular).

John may be weak willed, but he sure as hell is not weak minded. Anybody that has read his postings on the various forums/messages boards can attest to that.

You guys have been so busy sharpening Occam's Razor in this thread that it has become a dull blade. John has posted his encounter. He has never wavered from what he has originally stated concerning his encounter. I think he has done a pretty good job, considering he was 17 when it happened. I am sure there could be more learned from him, however, his PTSD over the incident probably has closed his mind off to some of the events and he can't recall everything.

One thing I would like to mention, that I hope John finds useful in his quest to unravel this mystery, is that based upon my own experiences with these creatures, I believe that John's encounter involved not one, but two creatures. These creatures hardly ever hunt singularly. They almost always tag-team. I am not sure what the purpose is when they are foraging for plant foodstuffs, unless one is supposed to stand watch while the other eats. When hunting live prey, one seems to always drive the prey into an ambush by the other.

I find it doubtful, that the one that John saw, put "the stink" on him. There is no indication in John's report that the creature passed by his deer stand, before he stepped out in front of him. Given that John was guesstimating that the creature was approximately 50 yds in front of him, I find it doubtful that any smell was being given off from the creature that John could have smelled. I believe that the "stink" that John smelled probably came from the other creature that was hiding in the brush closer to the deer stand.

(Oh, and speaking of the "stink" that John got a whiff of, just like a "creature sighting", there is no way a person can ever truly describe the "smell". It is like nothing you have ever smelled before and once you smell it, you will never forget it. It will make your eyes water and can very well make you "sick to your stomach".)

I don't believe these creatures are harmful to humans, however, it is not the one you see in the woods that you should be worried about, it is his partner hiding behind you in the brush that should give you cause for reflection. :) I can only imagine how much more John's reaction would be if he ascertained that another creature was closer to the deer stand during his encounter.

Of course, like I said earlier in this post, these are only my opinions, base upon my own experience with these creatures. I am not here to post about my experiences. Just to give John some "food for thought" concerning his own encounter.

The only other thing that I would tell John is that I wouldn't let a bad experience when I was 17 keep me from going out and having some fun in the woods.

I think you should buck up, go out into the woods, find the sucker and kick him in the ass! ;)

So i am considered by you to be "truly weak minded" well that's a confident statement from someone that considers himself to be "not even an amateur psychiatrist"

[LONGTABBER PE]

Everyone who has been asking me to describe the smell, Pywacket just described it very well.

I am sorry, I need to take a break from answering these questions right now. No one has done anything wrong, my health is not good at the moment. I apologize and I thank you for being kind. I will be OK soon and return.

Take care of yourself dude

[LONGTABBER PE]

I usually just lurk around this site and having spent some time now reading this thread I feel the need to a least post just this one time on WGBH's behalf. Please keep in mind that this is only my opinion, based upon my own experiences with "bigfoot-like" creatures in the woods. ;)

John is pretty brave to be posting his experience on this site, for sure, and I am duly impressed at how well he is being treated here, for the most part.

However, I just have to say that I think it is ludicrous for John to accept any other explanation for his encounter except for what it is. He saw a bigfoot-like creature. I believe him.

I wrote a dissertation awhile back on the BFF, that I expounded on more in one of my blog writings, concerning the different personalities in the "bigfoot community". Part of it concerned the differences between "believers" and "knowers".

The difference between John and some others is that John is a "knower", not a "believer". You can "believe" all the evidence (whether it is scientific or not) that you want, but until you have your own sighting, you can never be a "knower". Whether he likes it or not, John is in the class of "Knowers".

Only those who "believe" in bigfoot will argue with a skeptic. Those that "know" these creatures exist won't waste their time. It is something like a Christian arguing with an Atheist about religion. It is a no-winner, for either side.




I am not a amateur psychiatrist, like some folks here, however I truly believe that those that claim to have had hypnagogic or hypnopompic hallucinations must be truly weak minded to believe that malarkey and to believe that it applies to John's experience. (Don't take it personal, I am not slamming anybody in particular).

John may be weak willed, but he sure as hell is not weak minded. Anybody that has read his postings on the various forums/messages boards can attest to that.

You guys have been so busy sharpening Occam's Razor in this thread that it has become a dull blade. John has posted his encounter. He has never wavered from what he has originally stated concerning his encounter. I think he has done a pretty good job, considering he was 17 when it happened. I am sure there could be more learned from him, however, his PTSD over the incident probably has closed his mind off to some of the events and he can't recall everything.

One thing I would like to mention, that I hope John finds useful in his quest to unravel this mystery, is that based upon my own experiences with these creatures, I believe that John's encounter involved not one, but two creatures. These creatures hardly ever hunt singularly. They almost always tag-team. I am not sure what the purpose is when they are foraging for plant foodstuffs, unless one is supposed to stand watch while the other eats. When hunting live prey, one seems to always drive the prey into an ambush by the other.

I find it doubtful, that the one that John saw, put "the stink" on him. There is no indication in John's report that the creature passed by his deer stand, before he stepped out in front of him. Given that John was guesstimating that the creature was approximately 50 yds in front of him, I find it doubtful that any smell was being given off from the creature that John could have smelled. I believe that the "stink" that John smelled probably came from the other creature that was hiding in the brush closer to the deer stand.

(Oh, and speaking of the "stink" that John got a whiff of, just like a "creature sighting", there is no way a person can ever truly describe the "smell". It is like nothing you have ever smelled before and once you smell it, you will never forget it. It will make your eyes water and can very well make you "sick to your stomach".)

I don't believe these creatures are harmful to humans, however, it is not the one you see in the woods that you should be worried about, it is his partner hiding behind you in the brush that should give you cause for reflection. :) I can only imagine how much more John's reaction would be if he ascertained that another creature was closer to the deer stand during his encounter.

Of course, like I said earlier in this post, these are only my opinions, base upon my own experience with these creatures. I am not here to post about my experiences. Just to give John some "food for thought" concerning his own encounter.

The only other thing that I would tell John is that I wouldn't let a bad experience when I was 17 keep me from going out and having some fun in the woods.

I think you should buck up, go out into the woods, find the sucker and kick him in the ass! ;)

Welcome to the Octagon Py, just a few comments

>>>John is pretty brave to be posting his experience on this site, for sure, and I am duly impressed at how well he is being treated here, for the most part.

excepting some of the "drive by" posters, the normal BF posters are very understanding. The difference with John is his sincere and honest,forthright attitude and a willingness to listen and discuss.

He didnt come here "convincing" or "arguing" , "selling"or "promoting". He simply came here saying "Here is what happened- now lets discuss it"

I can relate to that having "not sure" encounters myself. ( not posting here to save typing but they are at the BFF in the not sure encounter thread for all to read)

The majority of reception here is directly related to your willingness to think, engage in discussion and honesty. ( Bobbie gets the welcome mat here too)

So to make a blanket statement that "believers" ( or knowers, if you will) walk in as targets to be chewed up isnt supported by the facts

>>>However, I just have to say that I think it is ludicrous for John to accept any other explanation for his encounter except for what it is. He saw a bigfoot-like creature. I believe him.

I respectfully disagree. While its true BF may well factually exist ( and in case there is any doubt- let me state upfront i am applying these same words to MY accounts so I'm talking about ME as well) the scientific odds are that it doesnt. ( that and a quarter is worth 20 cents but still true)

If BF doesnt exist, then regardless of what John, you, me or anyone else thinks they saw, it wasnt a BF.

If one day, a BF is finally acknowledged anywhere except in Ga ( LOL) then many people have every right to come here with a can of whitewash and a wagner power sprayer and the skeptics here will be man and woman enough to stand at parade rest and take it. Until then, the jury is still out.


Its not a personality thing- its reality. In any case of an extreme unlikely scenario- the only logical course of action is to continuiously examine every possibility.

>>>The difference between John and some others is that John is a "knower", not a "believer". You can "believe" all the evidence (whether it is scientific or not) that you want, but until you have your own sighting, you can never be a "knower". Whether he likes it or not, John is in the class of "Knowers".

I agree in principal but not in application. One cannot "know" in truth until all possibilities have been examined. Thats not prehaps "nice" but its the truth.

>>>John may be weak willed, but he sure as hell is not weak minded. Anybody that has read his postings on the various forums/messages boards can attest to that.

I havent seen indication of a weak "will" with John

Anyhoo- welcome

[kitakaze]

John's Bigfoot showed that these creatures will expose themselves and apparently not perceive of the danger that a human-constructed hunting stand could present to them. It did not study or determine the fact that the stand contained a lethal threat. It did not avoid the side of the stand with the mail-slot opening that brings death.

This is just silly. John's Bigfoot knew he was there. It sensed and felt his presence and intent. It wanted John to feel the shock and the awe and turned it up to eleven.

Bigfoot is the Boss of the Woods and has a deep and spiritual connection to all those in the its domain, visitors and denizens alike. Its intuition is perfection and they see you for what you really are. It will never allow itself get close to someone might actually pop a cap in Bigfoot's ass (it would just bounce off, anyway) and to those whom it deems worthy of perceiving its majestic and terrible visage who actually remember to think about blasting it... it simply turns around and gives them The Look...

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1151

[kitakaze]

Everyone who has been asking me to describe the smell, Pywacket just described it very well.

I am sorry, I need to take a break from answering these questions right now. No one has done anything wrong, my health is not good at the moment. I apologize and I thank you for being kind. I will be OK soon and return.

Take your time and be well, John.:)

When you're in the swamp and your palms are sweating and you want to get away just remember...

Bigfoot's got nards. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzeNF3rV1NA)

[kitakaze]

His posting style has settled down into something more recognizable as one person lately, but you have to admit there have been times he's bounced around from nearly illiterate to almost scholarly. Lately he seems more like a 12 year old.

Copypasta.

[JohnWS]

The difference between John and some others is that John is a "knower", not a "believer". You can "believe" all the evidence (whether it is scientific or not) that you want, but until you have your own sighting, you can never be a "knower". Whether he likes it or not, John is in the class of "Knowers".


Addressing the argument here and not the arguer ;).

Once again I'm put in mind of the excellent video posted by Astrophotographer: Open Mindedness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI). The segment I'm thinking of starts a 1.23.

Seeing as bigfoot has never been proved to exist - as of now, I don't see bigfoot as a realistic explanation for anyone's unusual experience (if one is hit by a truck tomorrow that all changes). That is not to suggest people do not have unusual or inexplicable experiences, or that anyone who does is in some way deficient.

As it says in the video - 'I can't explain something, therefore I can explain it.' Insert weird unproven 'explanation' of choice here. All other possibilities are off & dismissed in favour of an unproven 'explanation'.

I think it's human nature to demand answers. In the case unusual experiences probably even more so. But unless you happen to have had a 'bigfoot moment' and actually have one stuck in the freezer or something, in all seriousness, you can't know. What I think you (blanket you) have is a strong conviction and have discounted and closed your mind to any and all other possibilities.

Edit to add: Which is undertandable. Even if you can't explain what happened, there will be some eager bigfoot proponents waiting to provide you with a tailor made 'explanation' (rightly on wrongly, deliberately or otherwise).

[dafydd]

Cool! Why? Will you go to the area where you had your sighting?

Are you apprehensive about it?

BTW, isn't it nice discover skeptics are human, too, and this place isn't full of hatred?

Not hatred,bemused bafflement in my case.If people want to waste their time searching for a non-existent creature,that's up to them.At least they get some fresh air,and it keeps them off the streets.

[dafydd]

That is a loaded question KK. The only "high quality" evidence that would suggest Bigfoot exists would be a type specimen. Alive or Dead. (I am no kill of course)

Now a clear, quality video or picture of a Squatch could possibly be enough to get the proper authorities involved in the research. This would be nice.

BTW, I will be around, but I do not think it is in my best interest to talk about my sighting anymore. People are starting to get wound up about it (pro and con). I would just like to be able to participate and contribute to this forum on the Bigfoot threads, not cause problems or arguments. I am here for my education and hopefully to get new research ideas. I am not here to fight.

I am not calling you a liar,I am not being hostile towards you,I believe that you believe that you saw a Bigfoot,but without evidence it's just another Bigfoot story.I am sorry if I offended you.

[Vortigern99]

Once again I'm put in mind of the excellent video posted by Astrophotographer: Open Mindedness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI). The segment I'm thinking of starts a 1.23.

...

As it says in the video - 'I can't explain something, therefore I can explain it.' Insert weird unproven 'explanation' of choice here. All other possibilities are off & dismissed in favour of an unproven 'explanation'.

What an excellent video! I congratulate the maker(s) on collating complex information -- and for some, challenging ideas -- into such an easily absorb-able series of animated vignettes. I also highly approve of the use of Jack Kirby artwork from the 1960s to achieve this effect.

[WGBH]

Welcome to the Octagon Py, just a few comments

>>>John is pretty brave to be posting his experience on this site, for sure, and I am duly impressed at how well he is being treated here, for the most part.

excepting some of the "drive by" posters, the normal BF posters are very understanding. The difference with John is his sincere and honest,forthright attitude and a willingness to listen and discuss.

He didnt come here "convincing" or "arguing" , "selling"or "promoting". He simply came here saying "Here is what happened- now lets discuss it"

I can relate to that having "not sure" encounters myself. ( not posting here to save typing but they are at the BFF in the not sure encounter thread for all to read)

The majority of reception here is directly related to your willingness to think, engage in discussion and honesty. ( Bobbie gets the welcome mat here too)

So to make a blanket statement that "believers" ( or knowers, if you will) walk in as targets to be chewed up isnt supported by the facts

>>>However, I just have to say that I think it is ludicrous for John to accept any other explanation for his encounter except for what it is. He saw a bigfoot-like creature. I believe him.

I respectfully disagree. While its true BF may well factually exist ( and in case there is any doubt- let me state upfront i am applying these same words to MY accounts so I'm talking about ME as well) the scientific odds are that it doesnt. ( that and a quarter is worth 20 cents but still true)

If BF doesnt exist, then regardless of what John, you, me or anyone else thinks they saw, it wasnt a BF.

If one day, a BF is finally acknowledged anywhere except in Ga ( LOL) then many people have every right to come here with a can of whitewash and a wagner power sprayer and the skeptics here will be man and woman enough to stand at parade rest and take it. Until then, the jury is still out.


Its not a personality thing- its reality. In any case of an extreme unlikely scenario- the only logical course of action is to continuiously examine every possibility.



I am at work and I am still not feeling well but I have this to say.

I have never wanted anything from any of these forums except to be able to talk about my experience. I went to the BFF hoping for help or just someone to chat with about it. Instead, I was stoned at the gate. Even by some "well known and respected researchers". I could have handled the attacks better, I will admit this. But it was very upsetting. I was thinking I had finally found the people I needed to talk to and the place to do so.

Another observation of mine is THERE ARE NO BIGFOOT EXPERTS. How can you be an expert in something you cannot even find? I go to these conferences and watch the presentations and I sometimes just want to stand up and shout that out. Most of the so-called experts have never even witnessed the animal. My point to this is, I seem to be looking for help that is not there and I am extremely frustrated already.

So, here I am. I do not care who helps me or gives me good ideas.Bigfoot believers OR skeptics. I just want answers period.

I get attacked from both sides anyway...

[William Parcher]

So, here I am. I do not care who helps me or gives me good ideas.Bigfoot believers OR skeptics. I just want answers period.

You have been provided with many potential answers. You seem to only want to hear certain kinds of answers. I think you are looking for answers about things like where Bigfoot chooses to sleep, the birth size of their offspring, what part of the body creates the stench, their average longevity, etc.

I could be wrong about that.

[WGBH]

You have been provided with many potential answers. You seem to only want to hear certain kinds of answers. I think you are looking for answers about things like where Bigfoot chooses to sleep, the birth size of their offspring, what part of the body creates the stench, their average longevity, etc.

I could be wrong about that.

Well, let's review shall we. I am either a daydreamer,a hallucinator, a nut case, a liar, or I saw an undocumented animal. If it were you, which would you want to chose?

The most important thing I need to know about Bigfoot is, does it exist. I will leave the rest to people that care about such things.

[William Parcher]

I am either a daydreamer,a hallucinator,

For all practical purposes, these are the same.


a nut case, a liar,

Same again.


or I saw an undocumented animal.



If it were you, which would you want to chose?

Three different hats sitting in a store. Pick the top hat if you want to be a dandy. Pick the cowboy hat if you want to be a wrangler. Take the hard hat if you want to be a skyscraper builder.

Are you no person at all if you walk out with no hat? You feel you must choose a hat?

[Correa Neto]

If you really want an unbiased answer, you must be willing to accept the possibility that you haven't seen a real bigfoot, regardless on how realistic your sighting experience may seem for you.

Remember, the answers to the question "are bigfeet real?" include the "NO" (or "based on the currently available data, no", if you preffer) option. This would mean your experience was atually some sort of hallucination, daydream, etc., regardless on how unconfortable you might feel about this idea. If you are actually looking for the truth, you must leave behind personal feelings and bias about the outcome.

And if this turns out to be the case, so what? Having experiences such as hallucinations, daydreams, etc. won't make you a worse human being. It doesn't mean you are mad.

[William Parcher]

He already told his circle of Bigfooter friends that he unquestionably saw a BF. Pick the wrong hat now and you have to go back and tell them all that you are no longer certain you saw a Biggie. What happens next?

[Correa Neto]

Choose the environment:
a.the internet
b.real life
c.a pink perfect world

Honestly, I think it should not be a problem to admit you may be mistaken about something. At least not usually.

[William Parcher]

I'm talking about your good friends with their common denominator being Bigfoot belief. Some are the "knowers". You tell them you are no longer certain, after forming your friendship from the opposite (I saw a BF for sure). Do they ask you if "those BF skeptics" got inside your head and caused you to switch hats? Do your friends begin to hassle you for that? Do they pull out your extremely detailed report (stunk like hell, saw muscles and tendons) and ask you how that could possibly come from a daydream? Do they suggest that you might be crazy to think it wasn't a Bigfoot?

How does that friendship proceed?

[Correa Neto]

Again, depends on the environment.

a.the internet:
Lots of trolling, name-calling, etc. from some more fanatic emotional types, given the impersonal nature of WWW fora. Many people will accept your position, even if they disagree. Some will say they are not happy with it.

b.real life:
Very few people will confront you in face-to-face contacts; some, however, will hiss behind you. Many people will cahnge subject afer giving you the look... Real friends and nice people will say OK, its your call, even if I can't understand your reasons or disagree with you. Hey, that's not unlike here...

c.a pink perfect world:
Only nice people live here, so they will say OK, its your call, even if I can't understand your reasons or disagree with you.

[WGBH]

Are you no person at all if you walk out with no hat? You feel you must choose a hat?

Yes, I need to know the answer.

He already told his circle of Bigfooter friends that he unquestionably saw a BF. Pick the wrong hat now and you have to go back and tell them all that you are no longer certain you saw a Biggie. What happens next?

Why are we dealing in hypotheticals now? If it was proven that I did not see a Bigfoot, so be it. But It needs to be proof. I would tell them the truth.

I'm talking about your good friends with their common denominator being Bigfoot belief. Some are the "knowers". You tell them you are no longer certain, after forming your friendship from the opposite (I saw a BF for sure). Do they ask you if "those BF skeptics" got inside your head and caused you to switch hats? Do your friends begin to hassle you for that? Do they pull out your extremely detailed report (stunk like hell, saw muscles and tendons) and ask you how that could possibly come from a daydream? Do they suggest that you might be crazy to think it wasn't a Bigfoot?

How does that friendship proceed?

No they do not ask me those questions. No they do not call me names. No they do not pressure me into believing anything, they are my friends. I have 4 people involved in this research who I would consider close friends and that I trust. 3 are enthusiasts, 1 a skeptic and we all go out in the woods together. None of them are witnesses. Would you like to join us?

You are aware that there are skeptics who do actually get out in the woods and search, correct?

[JohnWS]

Edit: Accidentally replied to an old post - redundant.

[William Parcher]

Why are we dealing in hypotheticals now? If it was proven that I did not see a Bigfoot, so be it. But It needs to be proof. I would tell them the truth.


How could it be proven that you didn't see a BF? What would that proof look like?

[WGBH]

How could it be proven that you didn't see a BF? What would that proof look like?

I dunno, One could stroll out in front of me and the other 4 people there do not see it? So I imagine them.

[Spektator]

You are going back to the Dismal Swamp alone soon. What would you say the odds are that you might see a bigfoot again on that trip?

[WGBH]

You are going back to the Dismal Swamp alone soon. What would you say the odds are that you might see a bigfoot again on that trip?

Zero I hope. I don't need to see Bigfoot again. I need to get in the woods.

[LTC8K6]

Well, the description of the creature does not seem to fit bigfoot too well. I'm not sure why one would think it was a bigfoot. A 9'X5' creature of any sort is going to leave all sorts of signs of it's presence and passing in the woods. It's gonna eat a lot and leave a lot behind it. A lot of stripped branches 9 or 10 feet off the ground would be noticed, too.

If I saw the same creature, "bigfoot" is not what would enter my mind as an explanation. This creature could probably pick Patty up and throw her...

[LONGTABBER PE]

I am at work and I am still not feeling well but I have this to say.

I have never wanted anything from any of these forums except to be able to talk about my experience. I went to the BFF hoping for help or just someone to chat with about it. Instead, I was stoned at the gate. Even by some "well known and respected researchers". I could have handled the attacks better, I will admit this. But it was very upsetting. I was thinking I had finally found the people I needed to talk to and the place to do so.

Another observation of mine is THERE ARE NO BIGFOOT EXPERTS. How can you be an expert in something you cannot even find? I go to these conferences and watch the presentations and I sometimes just want to stand up and shout that out. Most of the so-called experts have never even witnessed the animal. My point to this is, I seem to be looking for help that is not there and I am extremely frustrated already.

So, here I am. I do not care who helps me or gives me good ideas.Bigfoot believers OR skeptics. I just want answers period.

I get attacked from both sides anyway...

John, the BFF is what it is ( and we both know), the majority of the "in crowd" over there are clueless ( as evidenced by the "fruits" of their cumulative labor) and have some "secret" whatever as if that means something.

Those "self styled" experts of whom you speak have produced nothing. They know less than nothing.

Personally, I'm glad you are here and hope you enjoy your stay. I think your contributions regarding your experience are good and you might find some answers or at least assistance from some here.

[WGBH]

Well, the description of the creature does not seem to fit bigfoot too well. I'm not sure why one would think it was a bigfoot. A 9'X5' creature of any sort is going to leave all sorts of signs of it's presence and passing in the woods. It's gonna eat a lot and leave a lot behind it. A lot of stripped branches 9 or 10 feet off the ground would be noticed, too.

If I saw the same creature, "bigfoot" is not what would enter my mind as an explanation. This creature could probably pick Patty up and throw her...

Yes, it was a large one, Interestingly enough there is a new BFRO sighting report from 5 years earlier in North Carolina. The description of the animal is similar and it was also a daytime sighting.


http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=6267

[William Parcher]

John, why would that person wait 27 years to report seeing a Bigfoot? Saw it in 1976 and reported it in 1993.

[LTC8K6]

22 gauge rifle ? Don't sound like experienced hunters...

If it was downwind, why did they see it? It should have been gone long before they got there, both from their scent and from the noise.

[manofthesea]

If I saw the same creature, "bigfoot" is not what would enter my mind as an explanation. This creature could probably pick Patty up and throw her...

What would you consider this creature to be then?

Nice thread, don't want to interrupt. But this has been itching at me. Would the creature that J witnessed possibly be a male 'Patty'? One more question actually, if the witness has studied anthropology at all, what species would this creature most likely be?

If it was a homonoid, it would be pretty well depicted and described here:
http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/species.htm

[LTC8K6]

What would you consider this creature to be then?

Unknown or a bear, depending on how good a look I got at it. I was a bigfoot fan as a child and it just doesn't sound like a bigfoot to me.

Standing up and eating berries sounds bear like and when you are a kid, things seem a lot bigger to you.

[WGBH]

John, why would that person wait 27 years to report seeing a Bigfoot? Saw it in 1976 and reported it in 1993.

Good question William. I can only answer for myself. I waited 16 years to make my BFRO report in 1998. I started to get involved in this field in 2006. I have only begun to discuss my encounter openly in the last year and it is still difficult for me to discuss. So, in effect other then my BFRO report I barely talked about my encounter for 24 years.

The reason I never talked about it is because every time I attempted to bring the topic up to a friend or family member, It was treated the same way it was in the woods that day in 1982. With laughter, or cynicism or anger. It still hurt the same way too.

PS When I say discuss openly, I meant before that I only discussed it on Bigfoot forums or Bigfoot radio shows, or within the Bigfoot community.My encounter in the last year has become known by all my friends, family and co-workers.

[WGBH]

What would you consider this creature to be then?

Nice thread, don't want to interrupt. But this has been itching at me. Would the creature that J witnessed possibly be a male 'Patty'? One more question actually, if the witness has studied anthropology at all, what species would this creature most likely be?

If it was a homonoid, it would be pretty well depicted and described here:
http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/species.htm

In my opinion, yes I would consider this to be a large male specimen. Patty was obviously a female. No I have not studied anthropology. It appeared to me to be a very large, bipedal walking, ape like creature. I will leave it to others to classify it.

[WGBH]

Unknown or a bear, depending on how good a look I got at it. I was a bigfoot fan as a child and it just doesn't sound like a bigfoot to me.

Standing up and eating berries sounds bear like and when you are a kid, things seem a lot bigger to you.

What I saw was clearly not a bear. It was too large. It had hands. It had no snout. It had no visible ears. etc,etc...

[Vortigern99]

What I saw was clearly not a bear. It was too large. It had hands. It had no snout. It had no visible ears. etc,etc...

But it was fifty yards away, and you had just awakened from a collapse brought about by nausea, lack of sleep and lack of food, in a strange environment isolated from other people. All of these are classic symptoms of hallucination, whether you're willing to accept this or not.

The odds that you either hallucinated the animal out of whole cloth, or that you distorted a sighting of a bear (which were common to the area), are far higher than that you saw an actual 9'x5' animal which has left no trace of itself despite needing 9000+ calories a day, even in winter, and has massive bones that somehow dissolve into invisibility at death.

[WGBH]

But it was fifty yards away, and you had just awakened from a collapse brought about by nausea, lack of sleep and lack of food, in a strange environment isolated from other people. All of these are classic symptoms of hallucination, whether you're willing to accept this or not.

The odds that you either hallucinated the animal out of whole cloth, or that you distorted a sighting of a bear (which were common to the area), are far higher than that you saw an actual 9'x5' animal which has left no trace of itself despite needing 9000+ calories a day, even in winter, and has massive bones that somehow dissolve into invisibility at death.

What is this lack of sleep? I had at least 6 hours of sleep that night. From 11pm till 5 am. Maybe a bit more. The nausea was from the smell. I did not just wake up. I was never unconscious during the episode, just dizzy and in pain. I sat up for a few minutes before the branch cracking sounds even occurred. I already did see a small bear that morning. I saw what I saw.

Why would I hallucinate a Bigfoot? I hardly knew what one was. Why didn't it look like the costume Andre the Giant wore or like Patty? Up until then, those were the only references I had of what Bigfoot would look like. Good grief, I watched it for about 30 seconds before I realized what it was.

[kitakaze]

Hey, John. Did you get to Dismal yet? I just came back from camping in a ridiculously beautiful area. Check it out (not my images):

http://www.clientcarenetwork.com/Portals/0/ContentFiles/c27026dd-06c1-418c-a2cf-cebbbadfd79e/Images/Goldstream_Waterfall_1_800x600.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_C7oNoMJ1fiI/R_EofJ_h0dI/AAAAAAAAAEE/KRCGNtUGdQE/S692/falls5.jpg

http://shltrip.com/sitebuilder/images/An_Immature_Bald_Eagle_near_goldstream-V2-DSCN4300_3_-760x514.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx6ev9Le1AQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QTs-H2MTYo&NR=1

(Following link has stoners being nuts and some profanity: NSW)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgFRgkDxCuw&feature=related

BTW, John, I noticed that just after I was kicked out of SFB for skepticism the general discussion section and those pertaining to the PGF have been removed from public view by I assume Melissa or another admin. Any idea why that is? I wouldn't think that Genereal anything there warranted secretive behaviour.

[Vortigern99]

What is this lack of sleep? I had at least 6 hours of sleep that night. From 11pm till 5 am. Maybe a bit more. The nausea was from the smell. I did not just wake up. I was never unconscious during the episode, just dizzy and in pain. I sat up for a few minutes before the branch cracking sounds even occurred. I already did see a small bear that morning. I saw what I saw.

Thanks for the correction on the sleep question. I read in your account that you were "tired" and presumed it was from lack of sleep. It remains that you collapsed onto the floor of the deer blind from nausea, curled up into a fetal position, prior to the sighting. I will not include the phrase "lack of sleep" in my future summaries of your symptoms.

Why would I hallucinate a Bigfoot? I hardly knew what one was. Why didn't it look like the costume Andre the Giant wore or like Patty? Up until then, those were the only references I had of what Bigfoot would look like. Good grief, I watched it for about 30 seconds before I realized what it was.

Why would anyone hallucinate anything? Why would Kitakaze hallucinate a spectral demon that torments him while he sleeps? Why would Rollerero hallucinate a motorcycle? Why would Learner hallucinate a pile of dirt? Do you think that Learner's pile of dirt looked exactly like an earlier pile of dirt he had seen, down to its last detail? That Rollerero's motorcycle looked exactly like a motocycle he had once seen? Do you ever dream of things that appear distorted from the form you know them to take in real life? Because that is exactly what hallucination is: a waking dream, or a dream between waking and sleeping.

[kitakaze]

What is this lack of sleep? I had at least 6 hours of sleep that night. From 11pm till 5 am. Maybe a bit more. The nausea was from the smell. I did not just wake up. I was never unconscious during the episode, just dizzy and in pain. I sat up for a few minutes before the branch cracking sounds even occurred. I already did see a small bear that morning. I saw what I saw.

Didn't you say you arrived there at 10 or 11pm?

Also, you didn't say "dizzy" in your report. You said "really groggy":

“I didn’t know what.. when that was happening to me, I don’t know what it was. I really don’t remember what I was thinking. I just knew that I had never felt anything like that. Before or since. Never felt anything like that.”

Readers of this blog will perhaps think of the infrasound hypothesis at this point.

At this point JC was pretty disoriented. “I was really groggy and kind of getting myself back together. I sat back up, and was like, what the hell was that? And I started to look out the deer stand again. Then all the sudden I started hearing something, like footsteps, like branches breaking, like leaves crunching, like bushes rattling. Like something was moving through the forest. I was thinking, oh thank God! I hope it’s my friend and his dad coming to get me out of this.” But it was not his friends returning to fetch him.

Those are classic tells of sleep paralysis. I also would feel very, very groggy and hear movement around me as well.

Why would I hallucinate a Bigfoot? I hardly knew what one was. Why didn't it look like the costume Andre the Giant wore or like Patty? Up until then, those were the only references I had of what Bigfoot would look like. Good grief, I watched it for about 30 seconds before I realized what it was.

Under the premise that you had a hypnogogic hallucination, you didn't hallucinate something realistic at all. You hallucinated a 9 x 6 foot monster bipedal apeman that is a member of a species that lives in North America where every single living mammal species is known and studied in detail. How does a 9 x 6 monster ape bigger than a grizzly bear even live in a swamp? How does a massive, relatively slow-moving upright animal maintain breeding numbers in the eastern U.S. poking about an extremely studied ecosystem while evading being a catalogued member (maybe the biggest) of North American fauna? It boggles the mind. I don't think it is much more realistic than if you hallucinated the Incredible Hulk munching a mulberry tree.

[echocharlie419]

Doesthe clip on Penn&Teller's Bulls hit count?
:duck:

[WGBH]

Hey, John. Did you get to Dismal yet? I just came back from camping in a ridiculously beautiful area. Check it out (not my images):

http://www.clientcarenetwork.com/Portals/0/ContentFiles/c27026dd-06c1-418c-a2cf-cebbbadfd79e/Images/Goldstream_Waterfall_1_800x600.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_C7oNoMJ1fiI/R_EofJ_h0dI/AAAAAAAAAEE/KRCGNtUGdQE/S692/falls5.jpg

http://shltrip.com/sitebuilder/images/An_Immature_Bald_Eagle_near_goldstream-V2-DSCN4300_3_-760x514.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx6ev9Le1AQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QTs-H2MTYo&NR=1

(Following link has stoners being nuts and some profanity: NSW)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgFRgkDxCuw&feature=related

BTW, John, I noticed that just after I was kicked out of SFB for skepticism the general discussion section and those pertaining to the PGF have been removed from public view by I assume Melissa or another admin. Any idea why that is? I wouldn't think that Genereal anything there warranted secretive behaviour.


Yeah, I just got back, It rained just a bit so there were no people around the park area. That kinda spooked me. I just walked about a mile bike trail loop. Billy sounded mad on the phone for me going out alone. I had to explain to him It wasn't the wilderness it was a state park with clear trails so I was OK. I did buy some bear spray like he told me too, but I didn't see any bears.

I did not notice that anything had moved on the forum. You know I don't pay attention to the PGF stuff. I think it may be because Bill Munns is there answering questions.

PS. Great Pics dude! That place is beautiful!

[WGBH]

Didn't you say you arrived there at 10 or 11pm?

Also, you didn't say "dizzy" in your report. You said "really groggy":

You ever been really drunk and had bed spins? That's what it felt like when I was lying there on the floor of the deer stand. Would you call that dizzy or groggy or both? I was also having bad pains in my chest.



Those are classic tells of sleep paralysis. I also would feel very, very groggy and hear movement around me as well.

OK



Under the premise that you had a hypnogogic hallucination, you didn't hallucinate something realistic at all. You hallucinated a 9 x 6 foot monster bipedal apeman that is a member of a species that lives in North America where every single living mammal species is known and studied in detail. How does a 9 x 6 monster ape bigger than a grizzly bear even live in a swamp? How does a massive, relatively slow-moving upright animal maintain breeding numbers in the eastern U.S. poking about an extremely studied ecosystem while evading being a catalogued member (maybe the biggest) of North American fauna? It boggles the mind. I don't think it is much more realistic than if you hallucinated the Incredible Hulk munching a mulberry tree.

I have heard stories they can move really fast, But I only saw it standing still. Did you read the new BFRO report I posted above? The description of the animal is very similar.

I wish someone else would tell their story here. I like hearing other encounter stories.

[kitakaze]

Why would anyone hallucinate anything? Why would Kitakaze hallucinate a spectral demon that torments him while he sleeps?

Yeah, no kidding. Why did I have to hallucinate the lame scary demon? Why couldn't hallucinate something awesome like Bigfoot. I mean, c'mon. Look at my post count. I apparently spend more than 5 minutes a year talking about Bigfoot. Or at least I could have hallucinated a cool demon like the sexy Castlevania succubus. I'd link it but she's too sexy. Google is your friend.

[WGBH]

Thanks for the correction on the sleep question. I read in your account that you were "tired" and presumed it was from lack of sleep. It remains that you collapsed onto the floor of the deer blind from nausea, curled up into a fetal position, prior to the sighting. I will not include the phrase "lack of sleep" in my future summaries of your symptoms.

Vort, sorry bud. I didn't mean to sound like I was mad. I don't care if you say tired or lack of sleep.

Why would anyone hallucinate anything? Why would Kitakaze hallucinate a spectral demon that torments him while he sleeps? Why would Rollerero hallucinate a motorcycle? Why would Learner hallucinate a pile of dirt? Do you think that Learner's pile of dirt looked exactly like an earlier pile of dirt he had seen, down to its last detail? That Rollerero's motorcycle looked exactly like a motocycle he had once seen? Do you ever dream of things that appear distorted from the form you know them to take in real life? Because that is exactly what hallucination is: a waking dream, or a dream between waking and sleeping.

Most if the dreams I have now that I remember. Stinky seems to pop up in them and scare me.

[kitakaze]

Yeah, I just got back, It rained just a bit so there were no people around the park area. That kinda spooked me. I just walked about a mile bike trail loop. Billy sounded mad on the phone for me going out alone. I had to explain to him It wasn't the wilderness it was a state park with clear trails so I was OK. I did buy some bear spray like he told me too, but I didn't see any bears.

Why would Billy be mad at you for going alone? Shouldn't he be freaking out with happiness?

I was just at the most stunning lake and as I was heading into the area I checked a sign board with some info about the lake. There was a notice that a huge black bear had been seen on one of the trails only three days before. We found a women's sunglasses (kinda big with sequins on them) and keys there. We were wondering how they got there and joked we might see the bear coughing out a hair extension and a broken Beyoncé CD.

I did not notice that anything had moved on the forum. You know I don't pay attention to the PGF stuff. I think it may be because Bill Munns is there answering questions.

It's like the whole general discussion section and the research section Basically everywhere that I was regularly posting in and one of the people whom I was respectfully and civilly interacting with and who do not mind polite and reasonable skeptics might ask where the heck I went.

Wouldn't that be weird to remove from public view the entire general discussion section as well as the research section? Also weird that they never returned my email seeking clarification on the nature of my removal. Oh well. Interestingly Washingtonian in his email called it a suspension of my account but this makes it pretty obvious:

kitakaze

Full Member


Group: Banned
Posts: 263
Joined: 25-May 07
From: Tokyo, Japan (now visiting Vancouver Island)
Member No.: 212

Luckily I saved many of my posts there to my email for future refence. I realized when I had a post removed from a thread on the Freeman cast collection politely asking why we could not discuss whether or not we thought the casts from an admitted hoaxer were legitmate that I was in a highly bizarre situation with a Bigfoot enthusiast (Melissa) behaving very weirdly:

[quote name='Melissa' date='May 30 2009, 09:26 AM' post='13854']
This is not the "Did Paul Freeman hoax" thread.
Do not hijack this thread.

Hijack the thread? Seriously? This thread is about Paul Freeman's cast collection. If we can not discuss what we think of the casts, including whether we think they are real or not (which is an absolutely fair question considering the man was an admitted hoaxer), then what exactly is it we are supposed to discuss?
Melissa, could you or someone else explain this to me so I can understand? I don't want to post off-topic and would like to know what this is about so that I might decide to participate in the thread or not. Is there something different about these casts because Meldrum thinks some of them are real?

That's fine, though. I knew she was very irritated and wanted me gone. She cheerleaded Lyndon when he showed up to debate with me and then when he said he gave up and didn't feel like staying she really seemed irritated. That's what happens when you are heavily biased and can't handle healthy discussion and debate regarding a simple black and white zoological question.

Anyway, this is OT. I will discuss it more in an appropriate thread.


PS. Great Pics dude! That place is beautiful!

I literally thought when I was at those falls that John would go nuts if he could see this place. It was PNW rainforest on steroids.

[makaya325]

Why would Billy be mad at you for going alone? Shouldn't he be freaking out with happiness?

I was just at the most stunning lake and as I was heading into the area I checked a sign board with some info about the lake. There was a notice that a huge black bear had been seen on one of the trails only three days before. We found a women's sunglasses (kinda big with sequins on them) and keys there. We were wondering how they got there and joked we might see the bear coughing out a hair extension and a broken Beyoncé CD.



It's like the whole general discussion section and the research section Basically everywhere that I was regularly posting in and one of the people whom I was respectfully and civilly interacting with and who do not mind polite and reasonable skeptics might ask where the heck I went.

Wouldn't that be weird to remove from public view the entire general discussion section as well as the research section? Also weird that they never returned my email seeking clarification on the nature of my removal. Oh well. Interestingly Washingtonian in his email called it a suspension of my account but this makes it pretty obvious:

kitakaze

Full Member


Group: Banned
Posts: 263
Joined: 25-May 07
From: Tokyo, Japan (now visiting Vancouver Island)
Member No.: 212

Luckily I saved many of my posts there to my email for future refence. I realized when I had a post removed from a thread on the Freeman cast collection politely asking why we could not discuss whether or not we thought the casts from an admitted hoaxer were legitmate that I was in a highly bizarre situation with a Bigfoot enthusiast (Melissa) behaving very weirdly:



That's fine, though. I knew she was very irritated and wanted me gone. She cheerleaded Lyndon when he showed up to debate with me and then when he said he gave up and didn't feel like staying she really seemed irritated. That's what happens when you are heavily biased and can't handle healthy discussion and debate regarding a simple black and white zoological question.

Anyway, this is OT. I will discuss it more in an appropriate thread.




I literally thought when I was at those falls that John would go nuts if he could see this place. It was PNW rainforest on steroids.

I Thought that the PNW consists of temperate Rainforests only?

[GT/CS]

I Thought that the PNW consists of temperate Rainforests only?

You thought wrong, and you didn't do any research.

First we need to know what you consider to be the PNW.

[WGBH]

Why would Billy be mad at you for going alone? Shouldn't he be freaking out with happiness?

I was just at the most stunning lake and as I was heading into the area I checked a sign board with some info about the lake. There was a notice that a huge black bear had been seen on one of the trails only three days before. We found a women's sunglasses (kinda big with sequins on them) and keys there. We were wondering how they got there and joked we might see the bear coughing out a hair extension and a broken Beyoncé CD.

I literally thought when I was at those falls that John would go nuts if he could see this place. It was PNW rainforest on steroids.

Billy just worries about me because he has seen me freak out in the woods plenty of times. I am sure deep down he is happy, but he wants me to understand I should not go out alone as inexperienced and scared as I am.
When I told him it was just a park he calmed down.

[LTC8K6]

Billy was right. NC is a bear hotspot and the big ones are near the coast.


http://www.ncgameandfish.com/hunting/big-game-hunting/nc_aa123704a/

"The next morning I decided to stalk the bear," Rose said. "I used cover along ditches to sneak to the field. I shot the bear with a .270 at 175 yards."

The bear weighed 635 pounds. After drying, the skull scored 21, making the All-Time Boone and Crockett record book.

"The bear was a short distance from Dismal Swamp Refuge," Rose said. "That may have helped him get so big."

Robert Norville is the commission's District 2 wildlife biologist. Norville said the biggest bears in the state occur along the Pamlico County-Beaufort County line.

"I remember last year one party brought in a pair of bears that were almost identical and the bears weighed around 450 pounds each," Norville said. "One we checked at the Pamlico-Beaufort line weighed over 600 pounds. For the largest bears in the state, Hyde and Beaufort counties have been swapping bragging rights during recent seasons."


As good as the mountain hunting can be, hunters kill more bears in the coastal region, and bear weights are also heavier.

[LTC8K6]

I would vote that an inexperienced kid got sick in the woods and collapsed, and when he began to recover he saw a big bear standing up and feeding in the distance and blew it out of proportion from being scared and sick and worried and a bit confused about what happened to him.

[LTC8K6]

Apparently one of the biggest American Black Bears ever recorded was a male from North Carolina that weighed 400 kilograms...

[WGBH]

Apparently one of the biggest American Black Bears ever recorded was a male from North Carolina that weighed 400 kilograms...

Interesting fact. I would not have thought that. Most of the black bears I have seen in VA and NC have been small. Now the ones in PA were huge and more prevalent.

[makaya325]

Or WGBH could have seen a Bigfoot. He either saw it or he did not see it. Lets focus on both explanations.

[desertgal]

Or WGBH could have seen a Bigfoot. He either saw it or he did not see it. Lets focus on both explanations.

:confused:

Suggesting that he may have seen a bear IS focusing on the explanation that he did not see a Bigfoot.

[Vortigern99]

We've also addressed the possibility that he did see a bigfoot by asking such pertinent questions as how a breeding population of 9'x5' animals could go undetected, by biologists and/or cameras, in a human-frequented, human-inhabited area, while seeking to fulfill a 9000+ calorie-a-day nutritive requirement, and failing to leave behind any remains of either stool or its massive bones. If it is a real animal, these questions must be logically addressed.

[makaya325]

We've also addressed the possibility that he did see a bigfoot by asking such pertinent questions as how a breeding population of 9'x5' animals could go undetected, by biologists and/or cameras, in a human-frequented, human-inhabited area, while seeking to fulfill a 9000+ calorie-a-day nutritive requirement, and failing to leave behind any remains of either stool or its massive bones. If it is a real animal, these questions must be logically addressed.

While i still dont believe bigfoot is even real, I do not think you can consider the temperate rainforests of the PNW "human frequented". It is far from it. some areas Upstate NY are not very frequented,

[Vortigern99]

We are talking about WGBH's sighting. Stop talking about your beloved PNW and focus on the topic at hand.

[WGBH]

We've also addressed the possibility that he did see a bigfoot by asking such pertinent questions as how a breeding population of 9'x5' animals could go undetected, by biologists and/or cameras, in a human-frequented, human-inhabited area, while seeking to fulfill a 9000+ calorie-a-day nutritive requirement, and failing to leave behind any remains of either stool or its massive bones. If it is a real animal, these questions must be logically addressed.

The simple answer to that question is that the animals are rare and try not to frequent areas inhabited by humans. I also would doubt that they are all 9x5 in stature.

One problem is that there have been no serious scientific studies into this phenomenon done by scientists, Biologists, etc with the resources and money to do the study correctly. This study could take months or years. Right now it is just a bunch of "enthusiasts" as some like to call us, who spend our free time and weekends out looking. We are out there trying and all we ever receive is criticism. So go ahead Scientists and skeptics, get out there and prove me wrong. I can take it.

[Vortigern99]

The burden of proof is on the claimant, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

The contention that no scientists are involved in the search for BF evidence is incorrect. Krantz (dec.) and Meldrum are two that spring most readily to mind; both have written several papers and books on various BF-related topics. And there is still not a shred of evidence for BF that could not be easily hoaxed or imaginatively invented. This stands in direct opposition to every other species of animal in North America. What accounts for this discrepancy?

Whether the area under discussion is human-frequented or not, it is studied by biologists, inc. botanists and zoologists, and I expect (though I do not know this for a fact) by archeologists and paleontologists, just as with nearly every other region of the earth. And yet no hair, stool, DNA, bones or fossilized remains attributable to a massive bipedal hominid have been discovered. Again, what accounts for this astonishing lack of concrete evidence?

[JohnWS]

I can't help but be reminded of this:

Could the woods be full of unknown monsters, the rivers full of unknown monsters? Zoologists don't think so; they've been there repeatedly to look, and it's their profession to find and study new animals. To the pseudoscientist, the absence of evidence for some monster is itself a kind of “proof” the monster exists!

LINK (https://webspace.utexas.edu/cokerwr/www/index.html/distinguish.htm)

[clayflingythingy]

The simple answer to that question is that the animals are rare and try not to frequent areas inhabited by humans. I also would doubt that they are all 9x5 in stature.



Then how do you explain your sighting?

I am willing to wager that the area you were in, is/was frequented by humans...in this case hunters. The fact that you were there in an elevated stand proves the point.

BF, according to the sighting reports, exists coast to coast, which includes areras frequented by humans.

[beachnut]

The simple answer to that question is that the animals are rare and try not to frequent areas inhabited by humans. I also would doubt that they are all 9x5 in stature.

One problem is that there have been no serious scientific studies into this phenomenon done by scientists, Biologists, etc with the resources and money to do the study correctly. This study could take months or years. Right now it is just a bunch of "enthusiasts" as some like to call us, who spend our free time and weekends out looking. We are out there trying and all we ever receive is criticism. So go ahead Scientists and skeptics, get out there and prove me wrong. I can take it.

Rare as a Unicorn. They are rare because they don't exist.

There are no serious scientific studies because you do not do serious scientific studies on fantasy creatures.

Prove you wrong? There are no Bigfoot creatures; you will never prove me wrong.

Having a club and going out and looking for a fictional creature is fun stuff and I have heard sometimes Bigfoot comes and drinks all the beer while most of the club are out looking. But next time that happens just weigh the members again to see where the beer went. Did you take the beer too?

[WGBH]

The burden of proof is on the claimant, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

So predictable a statement and a cop out.

The contention that no scientists are involved in the search for BF evidence is incorrect. Krantz (dec.) and Meldrum are two that spring most readily to mind; both have written several papers and books on various BF-related topics.

Meldrum rarely does FIELD RESEARCH. Krantz has passed on. Bindernagel is getting up there in age and after having a conversation with him, I think he sees Bigfoot behind every tree. Besides, all of these men are attacked on this forum as being incompetent. Now you want to use them as examples of scientists studying the phenomenon? I am talking about independent wild life biologists and scientists.

And there is still not a shred of evidence for BF that could not be easily hoaxed or imaginatively invented. This stands in direct opposition to every other species of animal in North America. What accounts for this discrepancy?

What stands for this discrepancy is that we think we know everything and we do not. As proven by the discovery of new species daily.

Whether the area under discussion is human-frequented or not, it is studied by biologists, inc. botanists and zoologists, and I expect (though I do not know this for a fact) by archeologists and paleontologists, just as with nearly every other region of the earth. And yet no hair, stool, DNA, bones or fossilized remains attributable to a massive bipedal hominid have been discovered. Again, what accounts for this astonishing lack of concrete evidence?

Ever think that maybe they have seen something and just do not want to come forward with it? If you had a grant to study ferns in the PNW, would you want to ruin that by saying you saw a Bigfoot?

[WGBH]

Then how do you explain your sighting?

I am willing to wager that the area you were in, is/was frequented by humans...in this case hunters. The fact that you were there in an elevated stand proves the point.

BF, according to the sighting reports, exists coast to coast, which includes areras frequented by humans.

I am willing to wager you are WRONG. It was private property. Not frequented by humans except during hunting season by its owners. Even the cabins were a good distance from where my sighting was. The cabins did not even have electricity.

[clayflingythingy]

WGBH,

Not frequented by humans except during hunting season. Ok, fair enuff. However, how often did the owners hunt this land?

Here in Ky in the present day you have spring turkey/squirrel season, small game seasons from late summer thru Feb. Deer season starts in late summer for archery, then you have black powder season, and then the modern gun hunt. So it is possible to have land owned "only for hunting" with a human presence for about 8 months out of the year by avid hunters. And I know some avid hunters who hunt almost every weekend.

How many weeks and weekends were the owners, guests, friends actually at this property?

What about neighboring land owners? How often were they out and about on their property.

BTW, your answer to Vort were the same old tired footer arguments that are repeated over and over by bleevers.

[makaya325]

Take it easy people. You can list your explanations for WGBH's sighting, but you will never know what he saw. Only WGBH, and i mean WGBH ONLY, knows what he/she saw that day. Due to a lack of evidence, Trying to explain away His sighting is like beating a dead horse.

[beachnut]

Take it easy people. You can list your explanations for WGBH's sighting, but you will never know what he saw. Only WGBH, and i mean WGBH ONLY, knows what he/she saw that day. Due to a lack of evidence, Trying to explain away His sighting is like beating a dead horse.
He saw Bigfoot. His delusion will not materialize a Bigfoot for the rest of us to find.

[makaya325]

He saw Bigfoot. His delusion will not materialize a Bigfoot for the rest of us to find.

Excuse me? Why are you saying that WGHB has a delusion? The man posted his personal sighting, and was given some alternative explanations for it. He did not agree with those explanations, so nothing will change his mind.

No matter how unlikely, It is very possible that he saw something that lives undetected in a crowded country, defying the laws of nature, yet is very much alive. Do i think WGHB saw a bigfoot? Not likely. Might he have seen it though? Possibly.

[WGBH]

He saw Bigfoot. His delusion will not materialize a Bigfoot for the rest of us to find.

I am not delusional. To find a Bigfoot, you would need to get out in the woods and look. But, you find it much easier to sit behind your computer and insult me. Consider yourself ignored.

[WGBH]

WGBH,

Not frequented by humans except during hunting season. Ok, fair enuff. However, how often did the owners hunt this land?

Deer Hunting season is in the fall. I only went there once.

Here in Ky in the present day you have spring turkey/squirrel season, small game seasons from late summer thru Feb. Deer season starts in late summer for archery, then you have black powder season, and then the modern gun hunt. So it is possible to have land owned "only for hunting" with a human presence for about 8 months out of the year by avid hunters. And I know some avid hunters who hunt almost every weekend.

How many weeks and weekends were the owners, guests, friends actually at this property?

They spent many weekends at the cabins, but you can only go out hunting during the fall.

What about neighboring land owners? How often were they out and about on their property.

At that time there were no close by neighbors to the property. You had to drive miles just to get to a grocery store.

BTW, your answer to Vort were the same old tired footer arguments that are repeated over and over by bleevers.

Yes they are, and his are the same old skeptical arguments against my claims. Seems we never learn, do we?

[clayflingythingy]

So, you were only on the property once.

You state that the owners were often there for the weekends.

In truth, you really don't know how often the property owners were out and about on their land, do you? Rural property requires maintenance just like a home. Fences to repair, fields to mow, downed trees to remove in some cases, and perhaps firewood to cut.

Since you were there only once would you acknowledge it is fair to say you REALLY don't know how much human activity there was on this property?

And how do you know how much the neighboring landowners used their property? Stating you had to drive miles to the nearest grocery is not relevant. Heck, there are still areas in Ky where you have to drive miles to the nearest grocery. But that has nothing to do with how much human activity a piece of property has on it.

[WGBH]

So, you were only on the property once.

You state that the owners were often there for the weekends.

In truth, you really don't know how often the property owners were out and about on their land, do you? Rural property requires maintenance just like a home. Fences to repair, fields to mow, downed trees to remove in some cases, and perhaps firewood to cut.

Since you were there only once would you acknowledge it is fair to say you REALLY don't know how much human activity there was on this property?

And how do you know how much the neighboring landowners used their property? Stating you had to drive miles to the nearest grocery is not relevant. Heck, there are still areas in Ky where you have to drive miles to the nearest grocery. But that has nothing to do with how much human activity a piece of property has on it.

There were no neighbors. There was neighboring land but no structures such as houses at that time. There may have been hunting cabins, but I am not sure.

Of course I knew how much they used the property. It was owned by my best friends father and his Uncle. I was at their house almost daily. They only lived a few doors down from my parents house. Fences? what fences? Fields to mow? What fields? This was wooded property with a clearing for the cabins.

No, I cannot say for certain how much human activity was on the property. But I can say it was not very much. And most of that activity occurred near the cabins when it was not hunting season.

[desertgal]

No matter how unlikely, It is very possible that he saw something that lives undetected in a crowded country, defying the laws of nature, yet is very much alive.

No. It is not "very possible". It is a remote possibility, at best.

"Unlikely" and "very possible", by the way, are a contradiction in terms. If it is unlikely, it cannot be very possible.

For a person who claims to not believe in Bigfoot, your arguments continue to slant in favor of the existence of Bigfoot.

[beachnut]

I am not delusional. To find a Bigfoot, you would need to get out in the woods and look. But, you find it much easier to sit behind your computer and insult me. Consider yourself ignored.
You think you saw Bigfoot. There is no Bigfoot. You are not delusional unless you insist your illusion was a real Bigfoot; I made a mistake to call it a delusion. What is it when you think you see a creature that does not exist? What did we call mermaids when sailors see them? Wishful thinking?

Insult you while I sit in-front not behind of my fast and very quiet computers I built? I don't have to sit at any of my 11 computers long; I have been typing fast and efficiently for over 40 years. I have known for 57 years there is no Bigfoot and I spent much more time in the woods all over the world hiking, scuba diving, flying, and exploring.

I have been in the woods all over the world looking for Bigfoot and we never saw him because he does not exist.

Ignored because there is no Bigfoot. Humans are susceptible to illusions. At a skeptic forum I would expect people to be skeptical of their own perceptions and susceptibility to illusion. I have been trained in my job to recognize illusions so I will not die. I was trained my senses are not accurate in my profession of flying. If we trust our senses blindly and without understanding in flying we crash; you have to learn your limitations.

Spending more time in the woods will not materialize a creature which does not exist. I love being outdoors and have much more time sleeping, hiking, canoing, fishing, exploring outdoors then I will ever have typing fast on my computers.

I believe you saw Bigfoot; there are no Bigfoot creatures on earth except in our imaginations.

[makaya325]

You think you saw Bigfoot. There is no Bigfoot. You are not delusional unless you insist your illusion was a real Bigfoot; I made a mistake to call it a delusion. What is it when you think you see a creature that does not exist? What did we call mermaids when sailors see them? Wishful thinking?

Insult you while I sit in-front not behind of my fast and very quiet computers I built? I don't have to sit at any of my 11 computers long; I have been typing fast and efficiently for over 40 years. I have known for 57 years there is no Bigfoot and I spent much more time in the woods all over the world hiking, scuba diving, flying, and exploring.

I have been in the woods all over the world looking for Bigfoot and we never saw him because he does not exist.

Ignored because there is no Bigfoot. Humans are susceptible to illusions. At a skeptic forum I would expect people to be skeptical of their own perceptions and susceptibility to illusion. I have been trained in my job to recognize illusions so I will not die. I was trained my senses are not accurate in my profession of flying. If we trust our senses blindly and without understanding in flying we crash; you have to learn your limitations.

Spending more time in the woods will not materialize a creature which does not exist. I love being outdoors and have much more time sleeping, hiking, canoing, fishing, exploring outdoors then I will ever have typing fast on my computers.


You are being a complete d!ck, Beach. While you do not believe in bigfoot, that is no reason to call someone's experience a delusion or insist that they could not have seen a bigfoot, which is possible, but unlikely. Until evidence surfaces, we are left assuming what he saw was an illusion, but that could change.

[QUOTE]I believe you saw Bigfoot; there are no Bigfoot creatures on earth except in our imaginations

So...Unlike other phenomona, such as lake monsters and Ufo's, which have loads of explanations...you stumble upon a phenomona involving answering this baffling question: What on earth can be mistaken for a towering, hairy, giant Hominid from 150 ft away in broad daylight? Instead of escaping the question, why not consider that the possibility of bigfoot remains open. I am 99.9% convinced there is no hairy monster alive, but that .1% I can attribute to Longtabber Pe's 2 sightings, whose conviction in bigfoot remains hanging by a thread...Based on HIS two encounters.

[Vortigern99]

NOTE: My original statements are italicized; WGBH's replies are bolded; my new responses are in standard text.

The burden of proof is on the claimant, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

So predictable a statement and a cop out.

It's "predictable" because this is what is required for the scientific method to work. Physical evidence, independent verification, and peer review are necessary before we can accept something as correctly explaining objective reality. Otherwise, anyone could claim anything -- there's a purple-and-green dragon living in my garage!, for example -- and we would all just nod our heads and accept it. I'm sorry, WGBH, but the world cannot work that way.

Skeptical and scientific standards may be inconvenient and troublesome to you, but we need them in order to protect ourselves against outrageous claims. Huxters, shills and snake-oil salesmen of every stripe could simply state a thing -- "Buy this special gun to protect yourself against the bigfoot menace!" -- and we'd line up to purchase what they're selling. I'm not accusing you of selling anything, but others certainly are, and your claims are as founded in the standards of evidence as theirs are. We cannot accept your story at face value.

The contention that no scientists are involved in the search for BF evidence is incorrect. Krantz (dec.) and Meldrum are two that spring most readily to mind; both have written several papers and books on various BF-related topics.

Meldrum rarely does FIELD RESEARCH. Krantz has passed on. Bindernagel is getting up there in age and after having a conversation with him, I think he sees Bigfoot behind every tree. Besides, all of these men are attacked on this forum as being incompetent. Now you want to use them as examples of scientists studying the phenomenon? I am talking about independent wild life biologists and scientists.

I've never said they're incompetent. Not once, nor anything resembling it. You are conflating the opinions of others with my own opinions, then pretending to dismiss my points after you've rejected theirs as derogatory and insulting. So let me be clear: Even if Meldrum and Krantz were/are gifted scientists, dedicated to the scientific method and shining examples of their profession, the fact remains that they haven't turned up any concrete evidence for this animal.

Moving on, given that you're "talking about independent wild life biologists and scientists", is it any wonder that the vast majority of these individuals have little to no interest in pursuing an animal for which no concrete, non-hoaxable evidence exists? Footprints are hoaxable. Anecdotes are hoaxable, possible midsidentifications or hallucinations. The few scant hair samples said to exist are inconclusive and arguable. Film and video is consistently blurry, shaky, inconclusive, hoaxable. All the evidence points to this being a psychological, mythological, folkloric phenomenon, and not a zoological one.

And there is still not a shred of evidence for BF that could not be easily hoaxed or imaginatively invented. This stands in direct opposition to every other species of animal in North America. What accounts for this discrepancy?

What stands for this discrepancy is that we think we know everything and we do not. As proven by the discovery of new species daily.

This "new species every day" argument is spurious and underinformed. The vast majority of new species discovered are plants and invertebrates: spiders, frogs, fish, etc. The new mammals that are occasionally discovered are not "cryptids" for which mysterious reports exist, and for which people have been searching for decades, as is the case with BF.

Generally new mammals are found in remote jungles -- South America, Asia, Africa -- where biologists are only penetrating for the first time in years; in North America, however, there is a vast cadre of botanists, zoologists, bird-watchers, hunters, park rangers, land managers, etc. etc. out combing through every square mile of supposedly uninhabited forest. Those small patches which do elude us are not enough to sustain a breeding population of massive bipeds, which must number in the thousands to fulfill the requirements of genetic viability.

Furthermore, sometimes a new species is an already known and studied animal, but classified as "new" in order to distinguish it from another species in the same genus, previously believed to be the same species. This skews the numbers and makes it seem as though a "new mammal!" has been discovered, when in fact it's an animal we've known about all along, and are only assigning a new taxonomic name to it.

Whether the area under discussion is human-frequented or not, it is studied by biologists, inc. botanists and zoologists, and I expect (though I do not know this for a fact) by archeologists and paleontologists, just as with nearly every other region of the earth. And yet no hair, stool, DNA, bones or fossilized remains attributable to a massive bipedal hominid have been discovered. Again, what accounts for this astonishing lack of concrete evidence?

Ever think that maybe they have seen something and just do not want to come forward with it? If you had a grant to study ferns in the PNW, would you want to ruin that by saying you saw a Bigfoot?

Hogwash. Utter lack of understanding about the scientific community and how it operates. Science thrives on new discoveries. Careers flourish under the aegis of novel ideas and information. Can you imagine the riches that would be attendant to the discoverer of a legendary animal of the order of worldwide fame as bigfoot? The book rights alone would likely secure the lifelong comfort and luxury of that individual. The notion that accredited scientists are not reporting sightings or evidence for the most well-known undiscovered animal in the world because of fear they might be poo-poohed by their university committe is, in a word, incorrect.

No one trained in the scientific method is holding onto information that could change the world because of some imagined anxiety that their funding will evaporate.

I suggest you read up on science, WGBH. Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark is a damn good place to begin to develop your critical thinking skills, and to learn a few things about the worldwide scientific community: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World

[beachnut]

So...Unlike other phenomona, such as lake monsters and Ufo's, which have loads of explanations...you stumble upon a phenomona involving answering this baffling question: What on earth can be mistaken for a towering, hairy, giant Hominid from 150 ft away in broad daylight? Instead of escaping the question, why not consider that the possibility of bigfoot remains open. I am 99.9% convinced there is no hairy monster alive, but that .1% I can attribute to Longtabber Pe's 2 sightings, whose conviction in bigfoot remains hanging by a thread...Based on HIS two encounters. Skeptic forum -

Some of the few explanations for seeing Bigfoot: Active imagination. An illusion. Hoax. Drugs. Mushrooms. LSD. Lots of beer. DTs. Insanity. Brain tumors. Bad bread. Too much glue. MEK sniffing. Gasoline sniffing. Eye problems. Plus meditation, medication, brain lesions, electrical activity in the brain, physical exhaustion, schizophrenia, brain injuries, sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation, emotional exhaustion, brain damage, neurochemical activity in the brain, mental illness, epileptic attack, brain disease, hypnotism, lots of whiskey, lots of whiskey and watching a Bigfoot movie (Harry and the Hendersons(1987)).

Any reports from 1987?

If I read your post correctly you are 0.1 percent away from reality on Bigfoot.

[makaya325]

Skeptic forum -

Some of the few explanations for seeing Bigfoot: Active imagination. An illusion. Hoax. Drugs. Mushrooms. LSD. Lots of beer. DTs. Insanity. Brain tumors. Bad bread. Too much glue. MEK sniffing. Gasoline sniffing. Eye problems. Plus meditation, medication, brain lesions, electrical activity in the brain, physical exhaustion, schizophrenia, brain injuries, sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation, emotional exhaustion, brain damage, neurochemical activity in the brain, mental illness, epileptic attack, brain disease, hypnotism, lots of whiskey, lots of whiskey and watching a Bigfoot movie (Harry and the Hendersons(1987)).

Any reports from 1987?

If I read your post correctly you are 0.1 percent away from reality on Bigfoot.

You like to list ONE explanation into many irreverant ones. It is either

hallucination or a Real animal.

What you listed are all the same things. You just list different names to make it look like there are many explanations. In reality there are not, regardless if it is real or not.

For all of those disorders you listed: Why in the hell would any mentally disabled person be able to not only report, describe, and pin point geographical locations, but how and why would they be outside?

[kitakaze]

[B]
I have heard stories they can move really fast, But I only saw it standing still.

When you are 9 x 6ft and move about in a swamp on two legs, there is a pronounced limit to how fast and stealthy you can be. Particularly when you have a bad habiy of emitting gagging, eye-watering stenches that can be smelt at great distance. An animal like that would have been descended upon by men with guns and dogs long ago. How does a creature that size move about and feed and breed without being described by science. Can you imagine just how much that thing would need to eat? The size of it's droppings? The swathes of branches and leaves that would snag hair from its passing? Once again, bigger than a grizzly bear and on two legs. Think about it.

Did you read the new BFRO report I posted above? The description of the animal is very similar.

Yes I did...

http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=6267

...and there are important differences. That report mentions a ten foot height estimate, bloodshot yellow eyes, and long hair on limbs and head, and prominent canine teeth. It was four years after the release of The Legend of Boggy Creek and mentions another encounter a few years before. It is also again an examply of this alleged creature casually approaching into close distance of armed humans.

I wish someone else would tell their story here. I like hearing other encounter stories.

We've had lots of people from Henry May to Neil Burgstahler discuss what they felt were encounters with Bigfoot. Henry from his balcony and later a dirty white one in front of a person's house at the roadside away from any forest cover. Neil mentioned many things of a more colourful nature as I'm sure you can imagine. Needless to say, Henry had a much better time of it. The irony is that it's easier to explain an uncatalogued species that comes among us but can dematerialize to another dimension than the type that you and Henry describe that is a true giant that flaunts itself in front of us when we are armed and when we are in the middle of our own civilization.

It's just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out there, man. You see where I'm coming from?

[kitakaze]

Well, the description of the creature does not seem to fit bigfoot too well. I'm not sure why one would think it was a bigfoot. A 9'X5' creature of any sort is going to leave all sorts of signs of it's presence and passing in the woods. It's gonna eat a lot and leave a lot behind it. A lot of stripped branches 9 or 10 feet off the ground would be noticed, too.

If I saw the same creature, "bigfoot" is not what would enter my mind as an explanation. This creature could probably pick Patty up and throw her...

:D

No kidding! This thing could throw a pig, a horse, then Patty and play hackysack with some sheep just for fun. How does an animal that size adapt itself to life in North America and settle itself in the eastern U.S. attaining a size greater than grizzlies without any of the essential adaptions bears have (super noses, claws, teeth) to attaining that size? I mean, the only thing that could compare is a Kodiak and there is a very specific reason they get that big...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koMuIHiQw40

[WGBH]

.
It's just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out there, man. You see where I'm coming from?

Yes, I get it completely. Do the people who are accusing me of things like drug abuse get that this is the reason people do not talk about their encounters?

[WGBH]

NOTE: My original statements are italicized; WGBH's replies are bolded; my new responses are in standard text.

Generally new mammals are found in remote jungles -- South America, Asia, Africa -- where biologists are only penetrating for the first time in years; in North America, however, there is a vast cadre of botanists, zoologists, bird-watchers, hunters, park rangers, land managers, etc. etc. out combing through every square mile of supposedly uninhabited forest. Those small patches which do elude us are not enough to sustain a breeding population of massive bipeds, which must number in the thousands to fulfill the requirements of genetic viability.

You need to get out in the woods more.


No one trained in the scientific method is holding onto information that could change the world because of some imagined anxiety that their funding will evaporate.


This is only a opinion. You can vouch for the ethics of every person in the scientific community?

[Vortigern99]

I cannot speak for anyone else, WGBH, but I'm not accusing you of drug abuse. Hallucination under the conditions you describe (isolation, new environment, fatigue, nausea, and collapse) is a known, documented and studied phenomenon among sane, mentally healthy and non-drug-addicted persons.

There is no stigma to having experienced a hallucination, especially given the especial circumstances of the event. Kitakaze has demonic hallucinations several nights a year, I'm given to understand, and speaks about them openly and freely. No one labels him a "nutcase" or whatever, and if they did I expect he wouldn't care, for the simple reason that it isn't true.

Who else should care, but yourself, if you hallucinated something 27 years ago? You attach a negative connotation to a known human experience. Why not consider the likelihood of this over the rather absurd alternative, and face the facts? You thought you saw something that wasn't really there. End of story.

[Vortigern99]

You need to get out in the woods more. This is only a opinion. You can vouch for the ethics of every person in the scientific community?

1. You don't know me, or how much time I've spent "in the woods". If you must know, I grew up in the country, in the woods of East Texas -- specifically Tomball County, Magnolia, and Conroe. I happen to know a thing or two about them. How this impacts whether new mammalian species are discovered "every day", as you've erroneously contended, is another matter. You need to read a few more scientific papers.

2. What a ridiculous requirement! I need to "vouch for the ethics of every person in the scientific community" in order to persuade you that anyone -- layman, scientist, anyone -- who provides irrefutable evidence of BF would have guaranteed riches? That a biologist or primatologist offering such evidence would have their career made for them in an instant? Ethics don't have anything to do with the point I'm making. Did you even read my post? Meldrum et al. make careers out of bigfootery without any concrete evidence at all. Try to imagine what his career, or anyone's, would be like if they produced a body.

3. I'm beginning to see that your logical faculties are impaired, WGBH, and I do believe I'm done trying to convince you of anything.

[WGBH]

I cannot speak for anyone else, WGBH, but I'm not accusing you of drug abuse.

Never said it was you.

There is no stigma to having experienced a hallucination, especially given the especial circumstances of the event. Kitakaze has demonic hallucinations several nights a year, I'm given to understand, and speaks about them openly and freely. No one labels him a "nutcase" or whatever, and if they did I expect he wouldn't care, for the simple reason that it isn't true.

OK, but I cannot speak about hallucination because I have not experienced it.

Who else should care, but yourself, if you hallucinated something 27 years ago? You attach a negative connotation to a known human experience. Why not consider the likelihood of this over the rather absurd alternative, and face the facts? You thought you saw something that wasn't really there. End of story.

I am not attaching anything negative to it. It just did not happen that way. I happen to think your theory is absurd. Face what facts? These are only your opinions. I saw what I saw. I really wish it was the end of the story.

[Vortigern99]

Kitakaze "saw" a spectral demon tormenting him. Rollerero "saw" a motorcycle that the driver of the vehicle didn't, and wasn't actually there. Learner "saw" a pile of dirt that didn't exist.

People "see" things all the time that aren't there. Somehow you believe you are immune to/above known and studied phenomena of the mind. This despite the fact that isolation, a new environment, fatigue, nausea, and collapse are all known symptoms of hallucination. And that you were fifty yards away but saw things in excruciating detail.

You're kidding yourself.

[kitakaze]

While i still dont believe bigfoot is even real, I do not think you can consider the temperate rainforests of the PNW "human frequented". It is far from it. some areas Upstate NY are not very frequented,

Yeah, who the heck would want to frequent places like this, anyway?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAQ9rchinrc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrQcLyJeg8Y&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx6ev9Le1AQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGr8qXnXTW4&feature=related

:rolleyes:

Little mak, it's like you have some amorphous concept of what the PNW is and what occurs here. Look at the way Bigfoot is reported. Listen to what John is talking about. That is a creature that is going to be found. It needs food and is going to love the areas I just posted that have plenty of food and fresh water for them that also happen to be constantly frequented by humans with cameras.

If I were the type of creature that didn't mind stepping in front of armed humans or walking around their habitations, I wouldn't mind coming to a place like this where I could simply bend over and pick up a few thousand of those calories my massive stinking easily-trackable body would need. If I didn't mind the boomsticks that people carried, I certainly wouldn't be to interested in the cell phone or camcorder that takes the images and puts them on teh internets...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-GKJ2KMgRQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptmMqeSqz7I&feature=related

Tube was right, youtube is killing Bigfoot.

[WGBH]

1. You don't know me, or how much time I've spent "in the woods". If you must know, I grew up in the country, in the woods of East Texas -- specifically Tomball County, Magnolia, and Conroe. I happen to know a thing or two about them. How this impacts whether new mammalian species are discovered "every day", as you've erroneously contended, is another matter. You need to read a few more scientific papers.

Fair enough, but you don't know me either. Yet you can make assumptions.

2. What a ridiculous requirement! I need to "vouch for the ethics of every person in the scientific community" in order to persuade you that anyone -- layman, scientist, anyone -- who provides irrefutable evidence of BF would have guaranteed riches?

Who said that they were going to have proof? You did not read my post either. I said If someone was out in the woods studying ferns and they witnessed a Bigfoot. Would they risk their grant to talk about it ? Of course if someone found a specimen they would claim it.

3. I'm beginning to see that your logical faculties are impaired, WGBH, and I do believe I'm done trying to convince you of anything.

Why are my logical faculties impaired? Just because I disagree with your opinion? So, that is your opinion of anyone who disagrees with you? Classic.

[kitakaze]

Yes, I get it completely. Do the people who are accusing me of things like drug abuse get that this is the reason people do not talk about their encounters?

Where was this? Did I miss something? I'm just getting caught up here but I missed where you were accused of drug abuse.

[LTC8K6]

Only WGBH, and i mean WGBH ONLY, knows what he/she saw that day.

He clearly does not know what he saw that day. His description matches nothing exactly, not even bigfoot. If he knew what he saw, there would be nothing to discuss.

[LTC8K6]

If 9 foot tall and 5 foot wide bipeds are roaming the GDS undetected, then there are probably elephants running around undetected in there too. Both would leave similar sign of their presence in the woods...

[RayG]

John, I'm not a psychologist, but I sometimes pretend to be one at work. :D

I don't understanding the horrible fear you felt after your bigfoot encounter. It's not like bigfoot waved a hairy paw/hand in your direction, beams of light shot out of its eyes, and you were suddenly and involuntarily thrown down in a fetal position. From what you've described, it was just some critter sitting there, minding its business, munching on some bushes. Granted, it wasn't an animal you recognized or expected, but it made no threatening gestures in your direction, no roars of rage, no beating of the chest, nothing. Yet you have obviously been deeply affected by the events that day.

I guess I'm scratching my head wondering why? What is it that you found so terrifying about the incident?

RayG

[Vortigern99]

Why are my logical faculties impaired? Just because I disagree with your opinion? So, that is your opinion of anyone who disagrees with you? Classic.

Straw man. I declare my opinion that your, specifically your own, logical faculties are impaired based on your bewildering inability to comprehend the difference between "the ethics of every person in the scientific community" (your phrase) and "the career-making opportunities available to those who provide concrete evidence for BF" (my position), and you accuse me of applying this same diagnosis to "anyone who disagrees" with me. What, pray tell, is the basis for this sweeping generalization? Do you have some evidence to back this up, some other instance of my declaring someone's logical faculties impaired? I'm speaking to you and no one else, WGBH. Your logical faculties are impaired. You are not employing critical thinking processes to distinguish truth from fantasy. You are dismissing reasonable alternatives to your fantasy that a 9 foot beast dwells undetected in the swamplands and forests of the eastern US. A. There is no objective evidence for this creature. B. Hallucination is known and studied, esp. given the symptoms you describe. Somehow, for you A + B = "I saw a bigfoot." Ergo, your logical faculties are impaired. Awaken from your dream, I implore you in the name of reason!

[William Parcher]

Kitakaze "saw" a spectral demon tormenting him.

Kit, why do you say this was a hallucination when nobody has proven that demons do not exist?

[kitakaze]

Kit, why do you say this was a hallucination when nobody has proven that demons do not exist?

This is a very important point. How do I know these dark beings that are gone when I am fully awake are not in fact some type transdimensional visitors?

Paging Dr. Burgstahler...

Paging Dr. Burgstahler...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:John_Henry_Fuseli_-_The_Nightmare.JPG

[Pywacket]

Well, I knew that this thread wouldn't take long to get ugly for you, John. I am telling you, buddy, you can't argue BF with a skeptic. Remember my Christians vs. Atheist example?

I really believe that "some" people are hallucinating that they are psychiatrist's.

And that "some" people are hallucinating that all of their worldly experience, especially in the woods, plus their "age" makes them so knowledgeable that a BF-like creature couldn't exist. Well, I had those same "hallucinations" about my ability as a woodsman, too......until I had my own "encounters" with BF-like creatures, in those same East Texas woods.

Those of us that have enough "experience" to know that these creatures exist will never be able to prove it to those that disbelieve. It is a waste of time trying. That doesn't mean that we are not out trying to get concrete evidence of our claims. Some day, hopefully, someone will be able to provide the proof.

The best thing for us to do, John, is not join a BF discussion with a bunch of skeptics. Especially with the lack of information and experience that you have. It will only raise your blood pressure. ;) I could tell you that you don't want to be using or quoting Meldrum, Krantz, Bendernagle or Fahrenbach in your debates. (Those turkeys don't know their ass from a hole in the ground concerning BF research.)

Just walk away, John. You know what you know. You can't prove it here. :)

[clayflingythingy]

No, I cannot say for certain how much human activity was on the property.

Then the property may have not been the remote, human free area you have convinced yourself it was.

[WGBH]

He clearly does not know what he saw that day. His description matches nothing exactly, not even bigfoot. If he knew what he saw, there would be nothing to discuss.

I know what I saw. I saw a Bigfoot. There have been plenty of encounter stories I have read and heard where the description matches what I saw.

[LTC8K6]

You think you saw a bigfoot.

Rather a large difference.

[LTC8K6]

Well, I knew that this thread wouldn't take long to get ugly for you, John.

Please report anything ugly in this thread to the moderators. If you direct me to such posts, I will gladly report them.

[LTC8K6]

Note that in John's original report he ridicules the people who were with him by calling them "manly" men of the woods. Apparently because they thought it was a bear.

The experienced people on the scene apparently thought it was a bear.

[LTC8K6]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_79347244d109e9af.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=8969)

[William Parcher]

Well, I had those same "hallucinations" about my ability as a woodsman, too......until I had my own "encounters" with BF-like creatures, in those same East Texas woods.


You, and plenty of others.


http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/482c1418.gif

[WGBH]

You think you saw a bigfoot.

Rather a large difference.

No I know I saw one. We can do this all day if you want to.

[WGBH]

Please report anything ugly in this thread to the moderators. If you direct me to such posts, I will gladly report them.

I dont need to report anything. I can just ignore them.

[WGBH]

Note that in John's original report he ridicules the people who were with him by calling them "manly" men of the woods. Apparently because they thought it was a bear.

The experienced people on the scene apparently thought it was a bear.

And? I was probably also drunk when I made my original report. The experienced person. The other was my friend who was younger then I was and he was just following the lead of his father.

[William Parcher]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/79347244d109e9af.jpg


That Biggie is too narrow for the 9x5 template (shown here). He's a shrimp in the 9x6 template.


http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/4f7e3881.jpg

[WGBH]

Well, I knew that this thread wouldn't take long to get ugly for you, John. I am telling you, buddy, you can't argue BF with a skeptic. Remember my Christians vs. Atheist example?

I really believe that "some" people are hallucinating that they are psychiatrist's.

And that "some" people are hallucinating that all of their worldly experience, especially in the woods, plus their "age" makes them so knowledgeable that a BF-like creature couldn't exist. Well, I had those same "hallucinations" about my ability as a woodsman, too......until I had my own "encounters" with BF-like creatures, in those same East Texas woods.

Those of us that have enough "experience" to know that these creatures exist will never be able to prove it to those that disbelieve. It is a waste of time trying. That doesn't mean that we are not out trying to get concrete evidence of our claims. Some day, hopefully, someone will be able to provide the proof.

The best thing for us to do, John, is not join a BF discussion with a bunch of skeptics. Especially with the lack of information and experience that you have. It will only raise your blood pressure. ;) I could tell you that you don't want to be using or quoting Meldrum, Krantz, Bendernagle or Fahrenbach in your debates. (Those turkeys don't know their ass from a hole in the ground concerning BF research.)

Just walk away, John. You know what you know. You can't prove it here. :)

Py,

First of all, I appreciate your advise and kindness. My blood preassure is fine. I am not mad. I was asked to come here and answer questions and I have nothing to hide. I do not lose sleep over who believes my story anymore. I lose sleep from my nightmares. Sure it would be nice to get more kindness, but I can only control myself.

Yes, the so called "experts" in this field have definately been a big dissapointment. I guess I just had higher expectations.

[Telaynay's G'son]

There has been much discussion of the science (or lack thereof) regarding this endeavour.

To that end, I would ask this of everyone...when is science..truly science?

Not being a wisearse, but I recall a couple on instances where the "science" itself became suspect because of the scientists involved.

The first involved revelations in the national mainstream news media (60 minutes, et. al.) that several of the scientists working at the NIHS were also on the payroll of pharmaceutical companies. While that was not necessarily an infraction of the rules, does anyone truly think the prospect of bias (in their work) could be completely ruled out?

Another example involved use of a wildlife management tool (hunting) to help alleviate the overpopulation crisis caused by a certain species of waterfowl. The HSUS filed a lawsuit to stop the hunting and employed the testimony of their own expert witness a scientist/biologist they had hired. However, his testimony failed to pass muster when compared to the ~30 years of scientific data/findings compiled by the government scientists and was (HSUS position) was subsequently relegated to the status of junk science.

The first example was money driven and the second based upon more emotions/feelings than anything else.

My point is not to be skeptical of science but it might be wise to check out the "scientists" especially with reference as to exactly who is signing their paychecks.

Are any of the people in positions of authority/influence that are scoffing at the possibility "something" exists also maintaining a relationship/affinity with any entities (gov't/business, etc.) that are stakeholders in the economics that may be in play?

Make sure the person with all the sheepskin and laurels does not have feet of clay.

[WGBH]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/79347244d109e9af.jpg


That Biggie is too narrow for the 9x5 template (shown here). He's a shrimp in the 9x6 template.


http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/4f7e3881.jpg

Nice picture !

[atpeace]

I know what I saw. I saw a Bigfoot. There have been plenty of encounter stories I have read and heard where the description matches what I saw.

Hey WGBH, are you saying "matches what I saw" in reference to your description of your creature's immense size?

ap

[atpeace]

General Inquiry:

One of my biggest problems with many bf sighting encounters has been sighting visiblity: distance, lighting, speed of subject and speed of witness (automobile/truck), brevity of sighting, obstructions, monochrome color of subject, etc. I began very rudimentary experiments on this last fall and would like to pick it up again. I would welcome any input on how to scientifically go about my study. If anyone has any ideas they would like to share on how to create scientifically sound experiments on sighting visibility please pm me, I would greatly appreciate it.

thankyou
ap

[WGBH]

Hey WGBH, are you saying "matches what I saw" in reference to your description of your creature's immense size?

ap

Both, just look at the sighting report I posted above as an example.

[WGBH]

General Inquiry:

One of my biggest problems with many bf sighting encounters has been sighting visiblity: distance, lighting, speed of subject and speed of witness (automobile/truck), brevity of sighting, obstructions, monochrome color of subject, etc. I began very rudimentary experiments on this last fall and would like to pick it up again. I would welcome any input on how to scientifically go about my study. If anyone has any ideas they would like to share on how to create scientifically sound experiments on sighting visibility please pm me, I would greatly appreciate it.

thankyou
ap

Good idea!

[beachnut]

Where is the East Texas Bigfoot Brand Fertilizer company? Those giant beasts would be a good source of manure. Someone compared missing people to Bigfoot but it appears if you are missing you would want to be Bigfoot you will be seen even though you don't exist (that is the rub you would not exist, but you are seen). Is Bigfoot an intra-dimensional creature? Bigfoot is seen in this dimension but goes potty in the Bigfoot-do-your-business-here-dimension.

I have never seen the Bigfoot creature and never will because fantasies do not exist, but the illusions, hoaxes, and lies about Bigfoot exist. I have seen those. Do people make money off of Bigfoot by outfitting those groups who go searching for Bigfoot?

Is Bigfoot here for the money?
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/1BigFoot.jpg
http://www.cafepress.com/mabrc
To the Mid-America Bigfoot Research Center on-line store, ...

Who is going to market my "Bigfoot Brand Fertilizer", light and airy, like it is almost not there; to be precise exactly not there. Will a bag of hot air sell, can you sell an illusion? Yes http://www.cafepress.com/mabrc

Is believing in an imaginary creature bad? It is profitable for some; is capitalism bad? Freedom to believe and spend our money on whatever we like is cool. But poor Bigfoot is still imaginary; but it will not stop the search for Bigfoot.

[Telaynay's G'son]

Sir (Beachnut),

It is the search for bigfoot that drives the economic engine of those searching for the bigfooter's wallets. The ultimate fantasy is that any attendee would actually walk away as a so-called bigfoot researcher (emeritus, of course). That's because it's mainly a weight reduction program as in the poundage of one's bank account.

However, I do understand there will be a course in how to convert a bigfoot research trailer into a mobile meth lab (sarcasm added) as well as the video on current shake & bake meth recipes with the proviso that it's BYOSB (bring your own soda bottle) in order to keep expenses down.

The highlight though will be the contest to determine how many attendees you have to line up until a full set of teeth are attained. I also hear there may even be a bigfoot wrestling contest provided they can find the guy in the monkey suit from last year. Prizes include a (slightly used) set of Billy Bob teeth for Saturday nights as well as other special ocassions.

There will also be a strict dress code as all flip flops must be matching colors.

Y'all come.

[HarryHenderson]

.....Meldrum et al. make careers out of bigfootery without any concrete evidence at all. Try to imagine what his career, or anyone's, would be like if they produced a body.....
Oprah wouldn't stand a chance. Actually, I find it hard to imagine the agony Meldrum must go through everyday hoping beyond hope that a body somehow shows up before he passes. Okay, I do wonder what Meldrum is really thinking. I'd not be shocked to see some kind of 'monumental Bigfoot discovery' come down where Meldrum is dead center. Where he then "...takes a faded southbound bus that was low on gas and hope, and almost comically, turns right at Albuquerque..." ;)

[kitakaze]

Well, I knew that this thread wouldn't take long to get ugly for you, John. I am telling you, buddy, you can't argue BF with a skeptic. Remember my Christians vs. Atheist example?

:eye-poppi

Where exactly did this thread turn ugly? Post numbers would be great. Why is a dream/hynogogic hallucination unreasonable?

[kitakaze]

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/4f7e3881.jpghttp://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_217054a23021ae5fa0.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=16558)

[tsig]

Ever think that maybe they have seen something and just do not want to come forward with it? If you had a grant to study ferns in the PNW, would you want to ruin that by saying you saw a Bigfoot?

If I had evidence hell yes!!

My fern grant would be small potatoes compared to what I could get for finding BF.

Evidence = hard physical facts

[WGBH]

If I had evidence hell yes!!

My fern grant would be small potatoes compared to what I could get for finding BF.

Evidence = hard physical facts

Of course, but I didn't say hard physical evidence. I said a sighting.

[tsig]

Of course, but I didn't say hard physical evidence. I said a sighting.

If i saw it why not walk over to where it was and get hard physical evidence?

Scat, hair, anything it might have chewed on, footprints...

[LTC8K6]

No I know I saw one. We can do this all day if you want to.

No we can't. I haven't heard anything that suggests you saw a bigfoot, but you are certainly entitled to your beliefs. I don't think you are entitled to claim that you know for certain you saw a bigfoot, but there's nothing I can do about what you claim.

Objective folks can always read and judge what is most likely the truth.

[LTC8K6]

I dont need to report anything. I can just ignore them.

That has little to do with it. We can all ignore them. And I didn't ask you to report them.

Ignore who, though?

I don't want that sort of post or poster here.

An accusation has been made that someone here has been ugly to you. That needs to be addressed.

[makaya325]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_79347244d109e9af.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=8969)

You need to put him in the Dark PNW forests. :D

[WGBH]

John, I'm not a psychologist, but I sometimes pretend to be one at work. :D

I don't understanding the horrible fear you felt after your bigfoot encounter. It's not like bigfoot waved a hairy paw/hand in your direction, beams of light shot out of its eyes, and you were suddenly and involuntarily thrown down in a fetal position. From what you've described, it was just some critter sitting there, minding its business, munching on some bushes. Granted, it wasn't an animal you recognized or expected, but it made no threatening gestures in your direction, no roars of rage, no beating of the chest, nothing. Yet you have obviously been deeply affected by the events that day.

I guess I'm scratching my head wondering why? What is it that you found so terrifying about the incident?

RayG

Ray, I have no idea why it messed me up so bad. The animal never threatened me at all. I would love to answer that. All I can tell you is I have never felt fear like that before or since. It was probably just the fact that I was a kid and a "monster" was right there in front of me.

[SweatyYeti]

Ray, I have no idea why it messed me up so bad.

The animal never threatened me at all.

I would love to answer that. All I can tell you is I have never felt fear like that before or since. It was probably just the fact that I was a kid and a "monster" was right there in front of me.



Hi John....I have a thought concerning what might have caused you to feel the way you did.

Perhaps it was the fact that the creature you were seeing was not fully human...and not fully gorilla/ape.....but something in-between.

Maybe the "freakiness" of such a creature existing...for real...right in front of your eyes was very unsettling, for you.


Did you get that impression....that it was 'human', to some degree??

[kitakaze]

John, why would that person wait 27 years to report seeing a Bigfoot? Saw it in 1976 and reported it in 1993.Good question William. I can only answer for myself. I waited 16 years to make my BFRO report in 1998. I started to get involved in this field in 2006. I have only begun to discuss my encounter openly in the last year and it is still difficult for me to discuss. So, in effect other then my BFRO report I barely talked about my encounter for 24 years.

John, I have some maybe pointless questions.

The 1993 report of the 1976 encounter with the 9-10 ft Bigfoot with the yellow bloodshot eyes, prominent canines, and shaggy limbs and head by the teenagers with the 12-gauge shotgun and 22-gauge rifle for hunting squirrels (!?) - when did you first read that?

Your report in '98 and your involvement in '06 in Bigfootery with a person who gets together with other Bigfoot enthusiasts and looks for Bigfoot - what was going on between then for those intervening 8 years?

2006 and beginning to discuss in 2008 with your fellow enthusiasts you very own personal sighting as a kid - why the hold up?

[kitakaze]

Hi John....I have a thought concerning what might have caused you to feel the way you did.

Perhaps it was the fact that the creature you were seeing was not fully human...and not fully gorilla/ape.....but something in-between.

Maybe the "freakiness" of such a creature existing...for real...right in front of your eyes was very unsettling, for you.


Did you get that impression....that it was 'human', to some degree??

What hominin was ever 9 x 6 ft? That one in front of the armed human. The linked NC report said 9-10 ft. That other one in front of two armed humans. Joycefoot was at the corner of Rt 203 and State Farm Rd in Valatie, NY and was at least 7 ft. At what point does your will to believe burn out and the common sense kick in? That question is as rhetorical as asking why we can't find the biggest land mammals in North America.

[WGBH]

John, I have some maybe pointless questions.

The 1993 report of the 1976 encounter with the 9-10 ft Bigfoot with the yellow bloodshot eyes, prominent canines, and shaggy limbs and head by the teenagers with the 12-gauge shotgun and 22-gauge rifle for hunting squirrels (!?) - when did you first read that?

I read it about 2 weeks ago. I saw it posted under new reports, right in the front section and it caught my eye because it was NC.

Your report in '98 and your involvement in '06 in Bigfootery with a person who gets together with other Bigfoot enthusiasts and looks for Bigfoot - what was going on between then for those intervening 8 years?

If you mean personally, I guess the most notable thing would have been getting sober.

2006 and beginning to discuss in 2008 with your fellow enthusiasts you very own personal sighting as a kid - why the hold up?

Kit, I am not following this last question, but do you mean why the hold up telling my fellow enthusiasts? I STILL have trouble discussing my encounter in person, even around Bigfoot friends. It is a lot easier to do on a internet forum like this.

PS. I'm sorry if I got your question wrong.

[WGBH]

Hi John....I have a thought concerning what might have caused you to feel the way you did.

Did you get that impression....that it was 'human', to some degree??

No I did not get the impression that it was human to any degree. I looked more ape to me.

As far as the fear. I have no idea.

[kitakaze]

Your report in '98 and your involvement in '06 in Bigfootery with a person who gets together with other Bigfoot enthusiasts and looks for Bigfoot - what was going on between then for those intervening 8 years?If you mean personally, I guess the most notable thing would have been getting sober.

OK, so dealing with an alcoholism symptomatic of the PTSD was the most notable. But you submitted your encounter to the BFRO and then what? You obviously must have been doing something else in relation to Bigfoot before hooking up with other people to look for Bigfoot. You made the effort to make a report. What came after that, Bigfoot-wise? Books, forums, BFRO... that type of thing.

2006 and beginning to discuss in 2008 with your fellow enthusiasts you very own personal sighting as a kid - why the hold up? Kit, I am not following this last question, but do you mean why the hold up telling my fellow enthusiasts? I STILL have trouble discussing my encounter in person, even around Bigfoot friends. It is a lot easier to do on a internet forum like this.

PS. I'm sorry if I got your question wrong.

No, no. You got it right. The hold up was you were scared of ridicule from fellow Bigfooters. That was why you didn't discuss it when you first started hanging out with them until 2008. Who was the first person you told via internet and who was the first person you told face to face after you started getting together with Bigfooters in '06?

[WGBH]

OK, so dealing with an alcoholism symptomatic of the PTSD was the most notable. But you submitted your encounter to the BFRO and then what? You obviously must have been doing something else in relation to Bigfoot before hooking up with other people to look for Bigfoot. You made the effort to make a report. What came after that, Bigfoot-wise? Books, forums, BFRO... that type of thing.

In 98 I googled Bigfoot and the BFRO web site came up. So I made my report. No, after I made the sighting report and did the enterview with the BFRO researcher I was not involved in any Bigfoot until 06. No forums, No anything.


No, no. You got it right. The hold up was you were scared of ridicule from fellow Bigfooters. That was why you didn't discuss it when you first started hanging out with them until 2008. Who was the first person you told via internet and who was the first person you told face to face after you started getting together with Bigfooters in '06?

Here is how I got involved in Bogfooting.In 06 I saw the program Sasquatch "Legend meets Science" on TV. Because of my sighting it started to interest me. I googled Bigfoot and Started reading the BFF and other information on Bigfoot like Bobbie Short's web page.

Everything was fine until I made the mistake of copying and pasting my BFRO sighting report on the forum. I was attacked and ridiculed, and eventually banned from the BFF. I think most of it was due to the BFRO hatred on the BFF.

I became heavily involved in listening and chatting on all the blog talk Bigfoot radio shows. I still am involved and I substitute host on many of the shows.

The first person I told personally via the internet about my sighting was Mike Killen who is a board member of NESRA and the host of the blog talk radio show The Bigfoot Quest. We chatted online about my encounter. He was the person who suggested I contact Billy Willard. Other then the BFRO researcher, he was the first person I talked to about my encounter in 25 years.

The second person I told via phone intrerview was your friend Melissa Hovey.:D I think this was shortly before she interviewed me on her radio show. If you listen to that show you can hear how nervous I was.

The first people I talked to about it to face to face were Billy Willard and Tom L. They are the co-directors of my group Sasquatch Watch of VA. This occured on the car ride to the 2008 Ohio Conference. This was in May 2008 and was the first time I returned to the woods in 26 years.

[RayG]

Ray, I have no idea why it messed me up so bad. The animal never threatened me at all. I would love to answer that. All I can tell you is I have never felt fear like that before or since. It was probably just the fact that I was a kid and a "monster" was right there in front of me.

Have you discussed this fear with a professional to try and determine why it messed you up so bad?

RayG

[WGBH]

Have you discussed this fear with a professional to try and determine why it messed you up so bad?

RayG

No Ray I have not. But at this point with the sleep problems I am still dealing with. I have begun to consider seeing a professional.

[Blackdog]

I was attacked and ridiculed, and eventually banned from the BFF. I think most of it was due to the BFRO hatred on the BFF.

You're playing the victim here John. IIRC you weren't exactly Mr. Congeniality yourself. Your banning had nothing to do with your encounter or the vilification of the BFRO.

[desertgal]

No Ray I have not. But at this point with the sleep problems I am still dealing with. I have begun to consider seeing a professional.

Well, I wonder...forgive me if I play amateur psychologist here, and if this has been asked before, I don't mean to replicate the question...but is it possible that there is something else that happened, around the same time, that is the cause of your distress, and your nightmares about Bigfoot are a manifestation of that something else? You mentioned PTSD and a battle for sobriety. It has been my experience-and, again, I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, but a recovering addict and psychiatric patient-that addictions are often the result of childhood trauma. It's not uncommon for people to substitute one childhood experience for another as the source of their trauma, if the real source is too painful to confront.

Just a thought. For what it is worth, I think seeing a professional would be to your benefit, and I wish you the best either way.

[William Parcher]

Everything was fine until I made the mistake of copying and pasting my BFRO sighting report on the forum. I was attacked and ridiculed, and eventually banned from the BFF. I think most of it was due to the BFRO hatred on the BFF.


I tried to find this on BFF, but couldn't. I did see where you pasted your BFRO report into a Dismal Swamp thread, but there was no attacking or ridicule there. Somebody recommended that you start your own thread, but I never found one. Is there a thread sitting on BFF that shows these people going after you and you being banned?

[Drewbot]

JC-
This question relates to after the encounter.

Have you since been diagnosed with a sleep disorder?

Narcolepsy, Sleep Apnea, RLS, etc...?

And... Just to clarify, how old were you when you had the sighting?

Thanks

[WGBH]

JC-
This question relates to after the encounter.

Have you since been diagnosed with a sleep disorder?

Narcolepsy, Sleep Apnea, RLS, etc...?

And... Just to clarify, how old were you when you had the sighting?

Thanks

I was 17 and possibly Sleep Apnea. I snore, but it's not diagnosed.

[WGBH]

You're playing the victim here John. IIRC you weren't exactly Mr. Congeniality yourself. Your banning had nothing to do with your encounter or the vilification of the BFRO.

I did not say my sighting was the cause of it. But it sure started there. I said "eventually led to".
As I have stated here before I was finally banned because of who I associate with in the field.
I have documentation to prove it. But who cares? It's done and I hate that cess pool anyway.

[WGBH]

I tried to find this on BFF, but couldn't. I did see where you pasted your BFRO report into a Dismal Swamp thread, but there was no attacking or ridicule there. Somebody recommended that you start your own thread, but I never found one. Is there a thread sitting on BFF that shows these people going after you and you being banned?

I was not banned as a result of that directly.It was later on. There were other issues and I am not completely without fault of course. As far as what happened to the thread or what thread it was on. I don't know or care. It was a battle zone everywhere. What does this have to do with my sighting? Why dig up old dirt?

[WGBH]

Do not turn this into a discussion about what happened on the Bigfoot Forums. I have no interest in re-opening those old wounds and it has no relevence on my sighting. I will not bring it up again and will not answer questions about it.

[WGBH]

Well, I wonder...forgive me if I play amateur psychologist here, and if this has been asked before, I don't mean to replicate the question...but is it possible that there is something else that happened, around the same time, that is the cause of your distress, and your nightmares about Bigfoot are a manifestation of that something else? You mentioned PTSD and a battle for sobriety. It has been my experience-and, again, I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, but a recovering addict and psychiatric patient-that addictions are often the result of childhood trauma. It's not uncommon for people to substitute one childhood experience for another as the source of their trauma, if the real source is too painful to confront.

Just a thought. For what it is worth, I think seeing a professional would be to your benefit, and I wish you the best either way.

You thoughts are fine,fair and welcome. It was not really a battle for sobriety. It was more of a behavior problem. I do not think I ever got to the point of physical dependency on alchohol. I was just partying every night and I mean EVERY night. I stopped cold turkey.

Yes I do think it is some type of PTSD.

[makaya325]

You thoughts are fine,fair and welcome. It was not really a battle for sobriety. It was more of a behavior problem. I do not think I ever got to the point of physical dependency on alchohol. I was just partying every night and I mean EVERY night. I stopped cold turkey.

Yes I do think it is some type of PTSD.

On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being totally sure it wasnt a bf, and 10 being a bf for sure, where would you fall?

[WGBH]

On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being totally sure it wasnt a bf, and 10 being a bf for sure, where would you fall?

Since no one is perfect, I will say a 9.

[atpeace]

WGBH,
(Since May 2008) Have you found anything at all while out in the woods with fellow searchers that has been even slightly helpful to you in your search for answers to your encounter? Or, in your discussions with them? In other words, do you feel they (sincere proponents) are getting anywhere it all?
ap

i guess I'm wondering if anything in particular has you at a 9? other than that one day so long ago?

[HarryHenderson]

JC, I know you won't appreciate this much, but I vividly remember a time in the past where you weren't so sure of exactly what it was you saw. And I don't mean your general description of the incident has changed really, just that you were at one time more open to the notion you could have simply 'misidentified' something. Going so far as to utter the words (essentially these words - as I remember them in my mind at least) "Harry, I don't know what I saw, but it did scare the snot out of me. I was 17, up in a tree blind and I didn't even want to be there in the first place. I was coerced to go along on that hunting trip cause I'm not even a hunter." Is that even close to anything you remember saying 'back when'? As a caveat, much of that particular discussion was in a 'Saturday night chat room' situation, so a record probably doesn't exist, but I think you already know I 'like you' and there's nothing genuine to be gained on any of our parts by my 'making it all up'.

Is it simply a case of you being more sure now, based on others' descriptions etc.? I'm asking because it's an important distinction IMO. At one time, it could have been deduced, by your own words, that what you saw was possibly ANOTHER HUNTER IN A GHILLIE SUIT, for example, but now you're 90% (?) sure it was a Bigfoot? Are you sure sure? ;)

[WGBH]

JC, I know you won't appreciate this much, but I vividly remember a time in the past where you weren't so sure of exactly what it was you saw. And I don't mean your general description of the incident has changed really, just that you were at one time more open to the notion you could have simply 'misidentified' something. Going so far as to utter the words (essentially these words - as I remember them in my mind at least) "Harry, I don't know what I saw, but it did scare the snot out of me. I was 17, up in a tree blind and I didn't even want to be there in the first place. I was coerced to go along on that hunting trip cause I'm not even a hunter." Is that even close to anything you remember saying 'back when'? As a caveat, much of that particular discussion was in a 'Saturday night chat room' situation, so a record probably doesn't exist, but I think you already know I 'like you' and there's nothing genuine to be gained on any of our parts by my 'making it all up'.

Is it simply a case of you being more sure now, based on others' descriptions etc.? I'm asking because it's an important distinction IMO. At one time, it could have been deduced, by your own words, that what you saw was possibly ANOTHER HUNTER IN A GHILLIE SUIT, for example, but now you're 90% (?) sure it was a Bigfoot? Are you sure sure? ;)

No Harry, I know you would not make it up. I think you may have the context mixed up there. I know it was a "Bigfoot" but wasnt the discussion that night about what is a Bigfoot? Harry, I have always told you and everyone else it was a big ape. It was not a bear, it was not a man. As far as a Ghillie suit. LOL! This is rural North Carolina in the early 80's, most of those people were lucky to have shoes. It was also private property.Yes I was co-erced to be there by my friend, but it was also a new and interesting experience for me. Hell no, Im not a hunter. I had no intention of shooting anything. They knew that! That is why they stuck me alone out in that tree stand and they told me was the worst one of the 3.

I can still see this thing clearly in my head. It is probably burned into my memory. I said 9 because I am very sure about what I saw. I would have said 10 but then the skeptic world would have chased me out of here with torches and pitch forks.

[WGBH]

WGBH,
(Since May 2008) Have you found anything at all while out in the woods with fellow searchers that has been even slightly helpful to you in your search for answers to your encounter? Or, in your discussions with them? In other words, do you feel they (sincere proponents) are getting anywhere it all?
ap

i guess I'm wondering if anything in particular has you at a 9? other than that one day so long ago?

No, I have not seen anything in the past year. Experienced some sounds, smells and prints.Call that what you want. We only had activity worth mentioning ONCE. Right now I am not searching the woods for answers. I am following people around and getting comfortable. I am not looking for Bigfoot.

My discussions with them are usually about who is the hottest female Bigfoot researcher. No, I do not feel we are getting anywhere. I feel we need to try new ideas.

I dont need to see Bigfoot (again). I need proof. If I saw Bigfoot again I probably would not tell anyone. It would be nice if my friends saw one. They deserve it. They work hard out there.

[William Parcher]

but now you're 90% (?) sure it was a Bigfoot?


I would have said 10 but then the skeptic world would have chased me out of here with torches and pitch forks.


John, I'm surprised that you didn't choose 10. You've been talking all this time with convicted certainty. You only chose 9 because skeptics would "chase you out"?

I won't chase you at all if you pick 10. But, try something else... Choose a percentage from 0-100% and don't be afraid. (BTW, the rating you did forces you to choose 70%, 80%, 90%, etc. - which may not be the best way to express your certainty.... i.e. you can't choose 99% that way)

[makaya325]

John, I'm surprised that you didn't choose 10. You've been talking all this time with convicted certainty. You only chose 9 because skeptics would "chase you out"?

I won't chase you at all if you pick 10. But, try something else... Choose a percentage from 0-100% and don't be afraid. (BTW, the rating you did forces you to choose 70%, 80%, 90%, etc. - which may not be the best way to express your certainty.... i.e. you can't choose 99% that way)

I agree with WP. John, It is ok to post your belief percentage of your sighting. Remember: No one here is ridiculing you, we are only suggesting alternative, and IMO, More conceviable, explanations than a giant ape that towers over bears living undetected in this ever growing continent.

[WGBH]

I said 9 because I am very sure about what I saw. I would have said 10 but then the skeptic world would have chased me out of here with torches and pitch forks.

You guys really have no sense of humor do you?

No one is ever perfect and anything is possible. But I will still say 90%.

[Blackdog]

As I have stated here before I was finally banned because of who I associate with in the field.
I have documentation to prove it. But who cares? It's done and I hate that cess pool anyway.
That's a bunch of crap.
Who you associate with in the field? Who's that, Melissa? She isn't banned on the BFF.

Yeah I'd like to see the proof. Right now I think you're making it up and if you'll make that up you'll make up anything.

[DogB]

That's a bunch of crap.
Who you associate with in the field? Who's that, Melissa? She isn't banned on the BFF.

Yeah I'd like to see the proof. Right now I think you're making it up and if you'll make that up you'll make up anything.


This is this relevant how?

I’m kinda enjoying this thread – you want to get messy with John about his behaviour on BFF take it elsewhere why don’t you.

[Blackdog]

Yep you're right boss. Truth doesn't matter here if it concerns another forum.

I suggest you go to this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=133244)and tell the posters there there very same thing.

Sorry I spoiled your fun.

[rockinkt]

This is this relevant how?

I’m kinda enjoying this thread – you want to get messy with John about his behaviour on BFF take it elsewhere why don’t you.

Why don't you take a second or two to actually think about what Blackdog wrote and respond to that instead of showing just how inept you are at reading and comprehending?

BD makes a very valid point. If a person is shown to have lied or changed the facts to color themselves more favorably regarding one situation - that person's credibility becomes an issue.
Since the credibility of John is one of the key factors in play here - it is very important to establish just how credible he is.

[WGBH]

That's a bunch of crap.
Who you associate with in the field? Who's that, Melissa? She isn't banned on the BFF.

Yeah I'd like to see the proof. Right now I think you're making it up and if you'll make that up you'll make up anything.

I could care less what you want to see.

[WGBH]

Why don't you take a second or two to actually think about what Blackdog wrote and respond to that instead of showing just how inept you are at reading and comprehending?

BD makes a very valid point. If a person is shown to have lied or changed the facts to color themselves more favorably regarding one situation - that person's credibility becomes an issue.
Since the credibility of John is one of the key factors in play here - it is very important to establish just how credible he is.

I have not lied.

[DogB]

Why don't you take a second or two to actually think about what Blackdog wrote and respond to that instead of showing just how inept you are at reading and comprehending?

I see. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re perhaps not greatly familiar with the meaning of the word ‘inept’.

BD makes a very valid point.

Not here and now he doesn’t

If a person is shown to have lied or changed the facts to color themselves more favorably regarding one situation - that person's credibility becomes an issue.

Very true…and completely irrelevant. Is John seeking our approval? Did he request our belief? He answered a question posed in the OP and since has been kind enough to answer subsequent questions. If the posters here chose to disbelieve his story then they wouldn’t have responded in the manner they did.

Since the credibility of John is one of the key factors in play here - it is very important to establish just how credible he is.

Perhaps you don’t understand. I don’t give a monkeys why John was banned from BFF. In fact it only increases his credibility with me.

Sure, John could be lying though his teeth. It’s the internet, that stuff happens. Nothing we can do about it if he is. We either take him at face value or go do something else. I choose to remain, feel free to go away if you feel otherwise.

In this case the thread has become (until recently) a quite interesting discussion on alternative theories on what John may have experienced. The most significant development IMHO is John’s fairly stubborn refusal to even entertain the notion of some sort of dream or hallucinatory event. It gives me an insight into a mindset different to my own.

That’s interesting to me.

Your (and Blackdog’s) petty little spat with John, isn’t.

Oh and BTW, I've derailed the thread far too much already. I will not reply to further posts debating this matter.

[SweatyYeti]

Why don't you take a second or two to actually think about what Blackdog wrote and respond to that instead of showing just how inept you are at reading and comprehending?

BD makes a very valid point.

If a person is shown to have lied or changed the facts to color themselves more favorably regarding one situation - that person's credibility becomes an issue.
Since the credibility of John is one of the key factors in play here - it is very important to establish just how credible he is.



Everybody lies, at some point in their lives. (That's true...believe me! ;) )

Does that disqualify everybody on the planet, from ever being able to see a Bigfoot??

[SweatyYeti]

DogB wrote:
Sure, John could be lying though his teeth.




In the vast majority of cases....'lies' are committed for specific reasons.

There are motivating factors behind lies, such as: protecting oneself from blame, or embarrassment....or, sometimes for financial gain....and sometimes, people lie to keep from hurting someone else's feelings.

It's pretty rare that people will lie to, and decieve others, simply for 'recreation'...for the fun of it. And even in cases where people do lie, just 'for the heck of it', or, in performing a practical joke on somebody....how often does that person continue the lie, or deception, for weeks, months, or years.....without any strong motivating factor (like the ones listed above) behind the lie???


How many people engage in 'casual, recreational lies', decieving their friends and their family, for years on end?


Sorry, but...."Discovering that someone has lied" :jaw-dropp previously in their lifetime....does not mean that it's likely that that person is living a lie about seeing Bigfoot.




It’s the internet, that stuff happens. Nothing we can do about it if he is. We either take him at face value or go do something else. I choose to remain, feel free to go away if you feel otherwise.



John's testimony about what he saw goes way beyond 'just posting something on the internet'.

[kitakaze]

Here is how I got involved in Bogfooting.In 06 I saw the program Sasquatch "Legend meets Science" on TV. Because of my sighting it started to interest me. I googled Bigfoot and Started reading the BFF and other information on Bigfoot like Bobbie Short's web page.

Everything was fine until I made the mistake of copying and pasting my BFRO sighting report on the forum. I was attacked and ridiculed, and eventually banned from the BFF. I think most of it was due to the BFRO hatred on the BFF.

I became heavily involved in listening and chatting on all the blog talk Bigfoot radio shows. I still am involved and I substitute host on many of the shows.

The first person I told personally via the internet about my sighting was Mike Killen who is a board member of NESRA and the host of the blog talk radio show The Bigfoot Quest. We chatted online about my encounter. He was the person who suggested I contact Billy Willard. Other then the BFRO researcher, he was the first person I talked to about my encounter in 25 years.

The second person I told via phone intrerview was your friend Melissa Hovey.:D I think this was shortly before she interviewed me on her radio show. If you listen to that show you can hear how nervous I was.

The first people I talked to about it to face to face were Billy Willard and Tom L. They are the co-directors of my group Sasquatch Watch of VA. This occured on the car ride to the 2008 Ohio Conference. This was in May 2008 and was the first time I returned to the woods in 26 years.

Thank you for the explanation, John. Do you have a working link for the radio show where you discuss your encounter? I would like to listen to it and the only link I could find is this broken one:

http://southeastsasquatchassociation.blogspot.com/2008/12/sasquatch-triangle-tonight.html

So the timeline is (please fill in the question marks if you can)....

October-ish '82 - encounter

August '98 - BFRO report submission

? '06 - LMS on TV, you get interested, join BFF, share BFRO report, goes badly, get tossed.

? '06 - you tell Mike Killen online about the encounter, he hooks you up with Billy Willard.

June '07 - you join SFB, eventually become mod, and this year become admin.

December '07 - you tell Melissa about encounter on the phone and do interview on her net radio show.

May '08 - You tell Billy Willard and Tom L (L?) in the car on the way to Ohio Bigfoot Conference about the encounter. After this you go into the woods for the first time in 26 years with Billy walking you through it.

Here's the '09 Ohio Bigfoot Conference (Don Keating on the picnic table, you at 1:36, 3:19):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMc_hEFBwOI

Here's the thing and you might not like it but I like you so I'm going to give it to you straight. You are in a sub-culture of people that are encouraging each other to think there are giant bestial apemen wandering around place like Salt Fork State Park. Who are the guys talking about the encounter in the second half of the video? The guy's talking about a sighting. Dude, is that the May ABS expedition they're talking about?

John, these guys are a sub-culture built in the predication of the concept of a zoological mystery. It involves belief systems and these people do not always behave rationally or think half as critically as they claim. If you lift yourself out of that culture and look at it objectively you can see some Scientology-like elements at play. Remember when Melissa flipped out over HarryH and I discussing Freeman's admitted hoaxing and why people would believe him in the Freeman cast collection thread? She literally told me straight-faced that we couldn't discuss whether we thought they were real. Woooooow, man. John, she had me tossed off her forum for nothing other than civil and informed skepticism. You abstained from that because you had the wits to know that it was just a ridiculous proposition. Now look at Don Keating up on the picnic table in that video with all the Bigfoot enthusiasts gathered around him. Do you not see the sociology of what is happening there? Think like a sociologist would. Bigfootery is really about people, John, and has very little to do with any real animal.

I'm going to try two angles. The first one is just a thought experiement and doesn't need to reflect my actual thinking. Let me just put on my poseur therapist hat here...

John, you didn't see a 9 x 6 monster ape in the Great Dismal Swamp because 9 x 6 montser apes do not exist. There is no Bigfoot and it is impossible that you saw a real Bigfoot (Sweaty should enjoy quoting that out of context). Such a species of creature would be the largest species of mammal living in North America and such a species does not live and breed all across the continent without being known and studied by science. What are real are vivid dreams, sleep-related hallucinations, distorted memories, and trauma-related psychological constructs (ie fantasy). You need help. You do not need help from people like Melissa Hovey or SweatyYeti who will encourage you to think you really did see a 9 x 6 monster ape in the woods. It causes significant harm to your lifestyle and interferes with your ability to be a free and happy human. There are trained professionals where you live in Virginia who help people with things like this and they can help you.

OK.

Let's try the other way. Now I need my devoted Bigfoot enthusiast hat (it's a big fedora)...

John, you saw a Bigfoot. Bigfoot is real. It wasn't a bear or a hallucination, it was simply an elusive and intelligent ape that remains uncatatlogued by science. That is because science doesn't take it seriously when people go out in the woods and see this thing. OK, let's go find this thing. Let's just do it. Where did you see this thing? Great Dismal Swamp? OK, let's go talk to the people who know what's up there...

Great Dismal Swamp National Wildlife Refuge
(http://www.albemarle-nc.com/gates/gdsnwr/)

RESEARCH OF THE GREAT DISMAL SWAMP (http://www.geocities.com/great_dismal_swamp/research.html)

Don't say anything about Bigfoot and just go talk to those people about the animals there. Find out what they know. Ask them about the biggest animals there and what can live there. If it comes down to it, tell them you are sure you saw an orangutan or some type of big ape. If they say "Bigfoot?", you say "Big what? Oooohhh... heh heh... You mean like Andre the giant? No, no. I saw an ape that looked like an orangutan. Could a really big orangutan live there?"

See, John, it's impossible that the people who work in and study that environment missed the giant monster apes - the ones that have no problem coming within 30 feet of people with 12 gauge shotguns. That is where you are going to get your best answers about what you saw there. Please call or email them and let me know when you have.

Those are just two ways I think people can approach your experience about getting the definitive answers that you want so much.

In the mean, here is the thread where you discussed you sighting at the BFF:

Dismal Swamp (http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=18761)

There wasn't any meltdowns in that thread, at least. That was where you first came across Billy Willard:

Bwillard,

You go out looking for them? Here in Virginia? I would be too scared, I almost crapped my pants when I saw one.
Those things look like they could snap me in half!

Be carefull!

John

[WGBH]

Perhaps you don’t understand. I don’t give a monkeys why John was banned from BFF. In fact it only increases his credibility with me.

Your (and Blackdog’s) petty little spat with John, isn’t.


And you should not care why I was banned. I don't care why Black Dog was banned. I am sure it was as unjustified as mine was.

I am not sure why he feels the need to bring old fights here. I am just not interested. It is just so tired and not worth it.

[WGBH]

Thank you for the explanation, John. Do you have a working link for the radio show where you discuss your encounter? I would like to listen to it and the only link I could find is this broken one:

http://southeastsasquatchassociation.blogspot.com/2008/12/sasquatch-triangle-tonight.html

So the timeline is (please fill in the question marks if you can)....

October-ish '82 - encounter

August '98 - BFRO report submission

? '06 - LMS on TV, you get interested, join BFF, share BFRO report, goes badly, get tossed.

? '06 - you tell Mike Killen online about the encounter, he hooks you up with Billy Willard.

June '07 - you join SFB, eventually become mod, and this year become admin.

December '07 - you tell Melissa about encounter on the phone and do interview on her net radio show.

May '08 - You tell Billy Willard and Tom L (L?) in the car on the way to Ohio Bigfoot Conference about the encounter. After this you go into the woods for the first time in 26 years with Billy walking you through it.

Here's the '09 Ohio Bigfoot Conference (Don Keating on the picnic table, you at 1:36, 3:19):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMc_hEFBwOI

Here's the thing and you might not like it but I like you so I'm going to give it to you straight. You are in a sub-culture of people that are encouraging each other to think there are giant bestial apemen wandering around place like Salt Fork State Park. Who are the guys talking about the encounter in the second half of the video? The guy's talking about a sighting. Dude, is that the May ABS expedition they're talking about?

John, these guys are a sub-culture built in the predication of the concept of a zoological mystery. It involves belief systems and these people do not always behave rationally or think half as critically as they claim. If you lift yourself out of that culture and look at it objectively you can see some Scientology-like elements at play. Remember when Melissa flipped out over HarryH and I discussing Freeman's admitted hoaxing and why people would believe him in the Freeman cast collection thread? She literally told me straight-faced that we couldn't discuss whether we thought they were real. Woooooow, man. John, she had me tossed off her forum for nothing other than civil and informed skepticism. You abstained from that because you had the wits to know that it was just a ridiculous proposition. Now look at Don Keating up on the picnic table in that video with all the Bigfoot enthusiasts gathered around him. Do you not see the sociology of what is happening there? Think like a sociologist would. Bigfootery is really about people, John, and has very little to do with any real animal.

I'm going to try two angles. The first one is just a thought experiement and doesn't need to reflect my actual thinking. Let me just put on my poseur therapist hat here...

John, you didn't see a 9 x 6 monster ape in the Great Dismal Swamp because 9 x 6 montser apes do not exist. There is no Bigfoot and it is impossible that you saw a real Bigfoot (Sweaty should enjoy quoting that out of context). Such a species of creature would be the largest species of mammal living in North America and such a species does not live and breed all across the continent without being known and studied by science. What are real are vivid dreams, sleep-related hallucinations, distorted memories, and trauma-related psychological constructs (ie fantasy). You need help. You do not need help from people like Melissa Hovey or SweatyYeti who will encourage you to think you really did see a 9 x 6 monster ape in the woods. It causes significant harm to your lifestyle and interferes with your ability to be a free and happy human. There are trained professionals where you live in Virginia who help people with things like this and they can help you.

OK.

Let's try the other way. Now I need my devoted Bigfoot enthusiast hat (it's a big fedora)...

John, you saw a Bigfoot. Bigfoot is real. It wasn't a bear or a hallucination, it was simply an elusive and intelligent ape that remains uncatatlogued by science. That is because science doesn't take it seriously when people go out in the woods and see this thing. OK, let's go find this thing. Let's just do it. Where did you see this thing? Great Dismal Swamp? OK, let's go talk to the people who know what's up there...

Great Dismal Swamp National Wildlife Refuge
(http://www.albemarle-nc.com/gates/gdsnwr/)

RESEARCH OF THE GREAT DISMAL SWAMP (http://www.geocities.com/great_dismal_swamp/research.html)

Don't say anything about Bigfoot and just go talk to those people about the animals there. Find out what they know. Ask them about the biggest animals there and what can live there. If it comes down to it, tell them you are sure you saw an orangutan or some type of big ape. If they say "Bigfoot?", you say "Big what? Oooohhh... heh heh... You mean like Andre the giant? No, no. I saw an ape that looked like an orangutan. Could a really big orangutan live there?"

Very good approach and one that I will use. I also think it's a good idea to talk to the park personnel if possible.

Those are just two ways I think people can approach your experience about getting the definitive answers that you want so much.

People are welcome to approach it or think what they want about it. All I ask is that they remember I am human and the insults do hurt.

in the mean, here is the thread where you discussed you sighting at the BFF:

Dismal Swamp (http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=18761)

There wasn't any meltdowns in that thread, at least. That was where you first came across Billy Willard:

That is not a thread where there was a meltdown and believe me there were many and not always about my sighting. Most of it was juvenile Bigfoot tribal warfare and yes I was just as guilty as anyone else involved in that mess.

Wow,THANK YOU for finding that Kit. That must have been one of the first times I talked to Billy. I wish I was able to see that again. I can access it from my work computer probably.

I was on two shows that are no longer on the air. I am not sure If I can still find archives for those shows, but I am looking now. I was on Sasquatch Experience which was where Melissa interviewed me and I was on the Squatchdetective show twice. Billy used to co-host that show and he asked me on there. We all know what happened to Steve Kulls regarding the GA hoax. Let's not even go there please.

The two men sharing that encounter in that you tube video are my close friend Eric Altman the Director of the PBS and Mike Feltner. They only saw a shadow figure and Eric does not make claims that it was a Bigfoot. Just that is was interesting.

Kit, Yes there are many people I have been in the field with who see Bigfoot behind every tree or hear one with every twig snap. Melissa is not one of them. She is skeptical. I do not get caught up in that hoopla. It has gotten pretty nuts sometimes, especially the time someone was trying to hoax me. Like I have told you before, I am not interested in anything but the animal. Forget the screams, the plaster casts, the stick structures, the blurry pictures, forget all of it. It can be interesting, but none of it is worth anything as proof.

I have my close circle of friends who are grounded and try to do proper research. We are not encouraging each other we saw anything.

[atpeace]

Here's the '09 Ohio Bigfoot Conference (Don Keating on the picnic table, you at 1:36, 3:19):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMc_hEFBwOI

Here's the thing and you might not like it but I like you so I'm going to give it to you straight. You are in a sub-culture of people that are encouraging each other to think there are giant bestial apemen wandering around place like Salt Fork State Park.


I feel sorry for the kids. If you chose to jerk around a bunch of adult strangers that's bad enough- But kids? Worse yet, your own kids?

ap

[kitakaze]

That's a bunch of crap.
Who you associate with in the field? Who's that, Melissa? She isn't banned on the BFF.

Yeah I'd like to see the proof. Right now I think you're making it up and if you'll make that up you'll make up anything.I could care less what you want to see.

Why don't you take a second or two to actually think about what Blackdog wrote and respond to that instead of showing just how inept you are at reading and comprehending?

BD makes a very valid point. If a person is shown to have lied or changed the facts to color themselves more favorably regarding one situation - that person's credibility becomes an issue.
Since the credibility of John is one of the key factors in play here - it is very important to establish just how credible he is.I have not lied.

John, they have reason to think that you may have made up your encounter. BD doubts that you were banned simply for being friends with Melissa. I don't think that's why you were banned. As BD said, she's not banned there. I've been reading the BFF long before I ever joined the JREF. They don't just chuck people out for such petty, nonsensical reasons like that. Unfortunately, it seems that throwing people out for ridiculous made-up reasons is happening at the board you are an administrator of.

It's not an unfair or irrational thing for some people to think you made up your story. People make up stories to elevate their status in a group and gain acceptance all the time. I've seen it with religious, UFO, ghost, and crypto groups many times. Bullet Maker or Paul Freeman, anyone? I'm not getting that vibe from what I've seen so far with you. The facts as I have seen them indicate that you really believe that you saw a Bigfoot. I think there is a way to definitively answer what you saw that doesn't involve poking every bush or turning every leaf.

Wait a minute... what did I just say?:D

[WGBH]

John, they have reason to think that you may have made up your encounter. BD doubts that you were banned simply for being friends with Melissa. I don't think that's why you were banned. As BD said, she's not banned there. I've been reading the BFF long before I ever joined the JREF. They don't just chuck people out for such petty, nonsensical reasons like that. Unfortunately, it seems that throwing people out for ridiculous made-up reasons is happening at the board you are an administrator of.


They do have every right to think what they want about my encounter. But this has NOTHING to do with my encounter.

OK, I have said I do not want to discuss or re-hash the old BFF crap. But you guys just will not leave it alone will you?

First of all I said, I was banned because of the people I associate with in the field. Who the heck said it was Melissa Hovey? BD did. I have only been in the field with Melissa Hovey ONCE and that was in April. This is just people wanting to pounce on me for being her friend. I had nothing to do with what happened to you on the SFB forum Kit. I told you that. I think you guys obsess about Melissa or something, good grief.

BD has no idea what went on because most of it happened in PM. Now drop it. I am not discussing it again.

Since the topic has turned from my encounter, to why I was banned from the BFF. There is no more need for me here. Ask the people at the BFF why, if you need to know. Then believe them if you want to. I really do not care.

Goodnight

[kitakaze]

That is not a thread where there was a meltdown and believe me there were many and not always about my sighting. Most of it was juvenile Bigfoot tribal warfare and yes I was just as guilty as anyone else involved in that mess.

Well, see, that's all Bigfootery really is to me. For every John Cartwright looking for answers to the inexplicable thing they saw there are ten Fanatic Chimp Bobos threatening a knuckle sandwich to those who diss their personal gods and heroes with questions of hoaxing. For every John Cartwright or AlanF that can see the bigger picture and deal with fair and expected questions to a black and white zoological question, you have ten Melissa Hovey's or Washingtonian's who feign the ability but are really burning for a skeptical atomic wedgy and are incensed when they realize you're going commando to the point that they just screw the rules and hand you your hat.

If you haven't noticed I'm on this kick trying to get you to see the irrational side of Bigfootery and to realize that it can apply to those in your tribe as well. Check this quote from what I suspect might be an excellent new skeptical book about Bigfoot and Bigfootery that William Parcher linked in another thread:

To the white working-class men who are his biggest fans, Buhs contends, Bigfoot is an icon of untamed masculinity, a populist rebel against scientific elites, the last champion of authentic reality against a plastic, image-driven, effeminate consumer society.

Buhs is at his amused best when following the exploits of bigfoot's human handlers—the colorful band of true believers, hoaxers and pseudo-documentarists who constructed this greatest of all shaggy-hominid stories.

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4785560&postcount=96

I don't know about you but I've seen a lot of that in Bigfootery. That has people like Biscardi, Steve Kulls, Fanatic Chimp Bobo Fey, etc written all over it.
Wow,THANK YOU for finding that Kit. That must have been one of the first times I talked to Billy. I wish I was able to see that again. I can access it from my work computer probably.

You're welcome, John. I thought that was neat knowing your great friendship with Billy Willard and all he has done for you to see your first words to him. I disagree with Billy. He is helping you by taking you in the woods, which is fantastic, but he is also encouraging you to think you really did see a 9 x 6 ft monster apeman. Of course you know I find that very hard to accept. IMO, it would almost be better to come up with some Burgstahler-type paranormal explanation than to talk about a giant creature like that being a real species roaming the eastern U.S.. It certainly can't compete with human mind explanations which we know are very real phenomena.

Let me ask you an honest question. Has anyone recently told you something to the effect of to be careful about letting those bastard skoftics get inside your head with sneaky psychobabble and getting you confused about what you know you saw? I think that is probably the case. Yeah, that's me. I'm that guy. I'm the one that is trying to get you to see that so much of what you talk about very, very easily fits within human mind explanations. None of them means you're bat$#!% crazy. They just mean you're human and susceptible to the same conditions as everybody else.

When I was a kid I could have sworn I saw a ghost or some kind of phantasm. Looking back I realized that I was an imaginative kid at the time who was walking the dark and scary way home and had the coolest wall-eyed old Chinese-Canadian school teacher who would freak the crap out of you with ghost stories to the class. You may not think that a monster apeman would make any sense for your mind to make up but there could have been any number of external stimuli that could have been responsible. Something you may not have remembered at all. You could have watched The Legend of Boggy Creek on afternoon matinee TV a month or year before and it went into your mind and linked to that part of you that's afraid of the woods. Who knows? You might have experienced some trauma in the woods that your mind has recreated as a Bigfoot encounter.

The starting point is for you to begin to understand that a species of animal that grows as large as 9 x 6 ft and lives in places like Ohio, Virginia, California, and New York is not going to remain undiscovered by science. It's ludicrous and absurd and the problem right now is that you're surrounded by people with flawed reasoning that are telling you otherwise. I'm not saying that Bigfoot is impossible and your friends like Melissa who don't want you to be affected by teh skoftiks will try and create the false image that we're unreasonable and our minds are just too closed to deal with the truth. So what's the truth then, John? Is someone like Melissa Hovey better equipped to tell you about the truth regarding Bigfoot. Dude. Melissa doesn't know any facts about Bigfoot. Nothing. Nani mo nai. She will be the first to admit that. She hasn't even found a decent, clear maybe Bigfoot print until you guys went together last month to Salt Fork State Park in Ohio and that had only two recognizable digits, was tiny, and was acknowledged as easily being bear.

So who knows? Well, you have people like Pywacket telling you you're a "knower" because you've seen one with your own eyes. What Pywacket should do is reading where I quoted a large chunk of your encounter story and put in vivid colour the parts that are very consistent with some kind of sleep-related phenomenom. You're 90% certain that the image of the massive beast that turned it face in your direction for just but a moment from 50 yards away in your memory in your mind was nothing but a Bigfoot. I'll agree with that. All I want you to consider was that it may never have really been there.

You know, because friends don't let friends believe in Bigfoot:D:

http://www.examiner.com/x-4112-National-Skepticism-Examiner~y2009m2d20-When-people-you-respect-believe-in-Sasquatch

I was on two shows that are no longer on the air. I am not sure If I can still find archives for those shows, but I am looking now. I was on Sasquatch Experience which was where Melissa interviewed me and I was on the Squatchdetective show twice. Billy used to co-host that show and he asked me on there. We all know what happened to Steve Kulls regarding the GA hoax. Let's not even go there please.

Ha!:D

Thanks, I'll look for those shows. So on those three shows did you share your encounter story three times?

The two men sharing that encounter in that you tube video are my close friend Eric Altman the Director of the PBS and Mike Feltner. They only saw a shadow figure and Eric does not make claims that it was a Bigfoot. Just that is was interesting.

Oh, c'mon, John. That's not the way they're talking at all. Eric said...

Something from behind this bush rose up and all I can describe it is a very large shadowy figure... massive, massive shoulders about four and a half, five feet and bullet-type shaped head. Conical-shaped head. If you've seen Jody Cook's figure... head... black head, it looks a lot like that.

Look at that video again from 3:28 at Eric and Mike's storytelling after Don Keating:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMc_hEFBwOI

They're talking Bigfoot to Bigfoot enthusiasts. They're enticing the people gathered around them and listening intently to believe they encountered Bigfoot. That they never use the definitive words "we saw Bigfoot" is irrelevant. They're engaging in the game of Woods & Wildmen. They're out in the woods hoping to experience and if they're lucky they can have their turn at storytelling and at belief reaffirmation time. They're talking about something throwing a couch pillow-sized rock being tossed and how terrified they were. It's prime Bigfootery. Let's go back Eric's turn with the talking stick (wait, holy crap. That stick he's holding... is that actually a talking stick?:D)...

It wasn't bent down where it rose up and you could see its back. It was *straight* up and I yelled out "What the heck is that!?" and he was freaking out and he didn't see it.

- Over to Mike -

I was in the car so... I was saying to ya it was kind of like a horror movie. It's like, you know... *starts patting pockets* keys, KEYS, KEYS! He had the keys and I'm like, looking through the car so...

- back to Eric -

I don't know what I saw but it made me stop the car and pull back in to look again and I had my highbeams back on this bush *pointing behind him* a second time and i jumped out with his spotlight and I had the spotlight on the bush and the highbeams on the bush looking at this thing going "what the hell did I just see?" Nothing there. I stood there for a few minutes listening to see if I could hear something going down into the woods... Nothing. Not a sound.

*pointing at Mike* He's screaming at me "LET'S GET OUTTA HERE!! LET'S GET OUTTA HERE" The story doesn't end there. It actually gets more interesting the next day.

See, John, that's Bigfootery. That's what Bigfootery is - Eric laying down the heavy Bigfoot vibes with a few casual and unimportant disclaimers while people hang on every word while guys are walking around the crowd with cameras and mics. That was the ABS expedition to Salt Fork State Park and look how those guys were behaving. Wow. I mean, I realize they're your friends and I'm not trying to insult them but holy cow, look at that. That behaviour is no different than Darkwing and No Mercy of the MABRC with the noisemaker fleeing in terror after they think they've been surround by four Bigfoots ambushing them. That's the classic search-and-flee that I mentioned at SFB when Melissa got choked about and suspended after I questioned the competence of the non-member (thefirstbillyjack) who posted a video of a porcupine which he fled from thinking it a baby Bigfoot. Think about it reasonably and try to remove yourself from the perspective of a fellow tribe member. Does that behaviour not look at least a little silly to you?

Kit, Yes there are many people I have been in the field with who see Bigfoot behind every tree or hear one with every twig snap. Melissa is not one of them. She is skeptical. I do not get caught up in that hoopla. It has gotten pretty nuts sometimes, especially the time someone was trying to hoax me. Like I have told you before, I am not interested in anything but the animal. Forget the screams, the plaster casts, the stick structures, the blurry pictures, forget all of it. It can be interesting, but none of it is worth anything as proof.

I agree and disagree. I certainly agree in that I don't think Melissa is the type who sees a Bigfoot behind every tree at all but I do not think she is an unbiased critical thinker. Tube once said that Melissa is basically like a groupie in Bigfootery and while that may sound harsh and mean, I can totally understand why he said that. I could take Melissa kicking me out of her forum personally but it is something I absolutely expected and prepared for. When she deletes posts that are simply and politely showing where she was confused about something or for seeking clarification with her dictums she is acting with bias. Her skepticism is not functioning properly.

Why would she flip out when HarryH and I started discussing Paul Freeman's admitted hoaxing? Is that not just facepalm silly? The reason she is having a problem with it is because she's a huge fan of Meldrum who stands by Freeman casts, including ones that have been the center of her feud with Matt Crowley. It's a sore spot and she doesn't think clearly. The weird irony is that she totally writes off Bullet Maker after he says he was hoaxing the MABRC but she does not similarly write off Freeman. What is up with that? That is just bizarre.

When I listen to Melissa speak to a person like Meldrum, Munns, or Noll I can easily discern her total bias in accepting what they say without being able to properly tackle the most basic flaws of their pro-Bigfoot ideas. She simply wants to show her support and doesn't care nearly enough about being an adept interviewer ready to pursue difficult questions to their resolution. I see that when she cheerleads Lyndon to take up the debate with me and scowls and steams when he gives up and says he'll move on because scoftics aren't worth it.

That's just my opinion and I do not at all expect you to agree, just to see how it looks to people that don't share your perspective.

[kitakaze]

They do have every right to think what they want about my encounter. But this has NOTHING to do with my encounter.

OK, I have said I do not want to discuss or re-hash the old BFF crap. But you guys just will not leave it alone will you?

First of all I said, I was banned because of the people I associate with in the field. Who the heck said it was Melissa Hovey? BD did. I have only been in the field with Melissa Hovey ONCE and that was in April. This is just people wanting to pounce on me for being her friend. I had nothing to do with what happened to you on the SFB forum Kit. I told you that. I think you guys obsess about Melissa or something, good grief.

BD has no idea what went on because most of it happened in PM. Now drop it. I am not discussing it again.

Since the topic has turned from my encounter, to why I was banned from the BFF. There is no more need for me here. Ask the people at the BFF why, if you need to know. Then believe them if you want to. I really do not care.

Goodnight

John, please relax and try not to be so sensitive. Please note the part of my post that you did not include in your quote:

It's not an unfair or irrational thing for some people to think you made up your story. People make up stories to elevate their status in a group and gain acceptance all the time. I've seen it with religious, UFO, ghost, and crypto groups many times. Bullet Maker or Paul Freeman, anyone? I'm not getting that vibe from what I've seen so far with you. The facts as I have seen them indicate that you really believe that you saw a Bigfoot. I think there is a way to definitively answer what you saw that doesn't involve poking every bush or turning every leaf.

Wait a minute... what did I just say?:D

I'm trying to address something that I felt could cause you to get upset and storm off. I wanted to show that while it's not unreasonable for BD and rock to think the way they do, I'm showing you I don't think you are lying. And yet it seems you are ready to storm off at the drop of a hat. Try to take it easy. I know you had nothing to do with my removal from the SFB and I have complimented you for abstaining from that decision in this thread and by PM. I appreciated that. If you look at what I wrote without being hyper-defensive, you'll see that I was trying to quell the discussion of the BFF and turn it back to your encounter.

So let's get back to your encounter. What are the silver bullets that are going to blast the idea that what you saw in the Great Dismal Swamp was in your mind?

[kitakaze]

It's pretty rare that people will lie to, and decieve others, simply for 'recreation'...for the fun of it.

Oh Sweet Fancy Moses. Sweaty, why oh why oh why do you make it so easy for me?;)

I saw a small Bigfoot on Mt. St. Helens in 1973. They are real!Cool! Congrats on your sighting, Professor....you're a very lucky guy! :)

:dl:

John's testimony about what he saw goes way beyond 'just posting something on the internet'.

That I will agree with.

[rockinkt]

I'm trying to address something that I felt could cause you to get upset and storm off. I wanted to show that while it's not unreasonable for BD and rock to think the way they do, I'm showing you I don't think you are lying.

Please do not put words in my mouth.

I did not state that I thought John was lying.
I merely pointed out the fact that if one is willing to lie about one situation to put themselves in a better light - one has to factor that willingness to lie into the overall assessment of that person's credibility.

Personally - I think John did see something - but over the years has either consciously and/or unconsciously added to that memory.
I think this is a huge factor in many alleged sightings.

Obtaining statements from witnesses before they have a chance to talk to other witnesses or think about what they have seen is a very important lesson one learns in law enforcement.

Memory is not a snapshot - it a construct that can be altered. That is something that every good investigator knows.

Science is just getting around to "proving" it.

Now, Loftus and many of her colleagues believe that memories are constantly being updated to fit "post-event information," such as events, details, and comments that are experienced later.
http://www.acfnewsource.org/science/false_memories.html

[kitakaze]

Please do not put words in my mouth.

I did not state that I thought John was lying.
I merely pointed out the fact that if one is willing to lie about one situation to put themselves in a better light - one has to factor that willingness to lie into the overall assessment of that person's credibility.

Personally - I think John did see something - but over the years has either consciously and/or unconsciously added to that memory.
I think this is a huge factor in many alleged sightings.

Obtaining statements from witnesses before they have a chance to talk to other witnesses or think about what they have seen is a very important lesson one learns in law enforcement.

Memory is not a snapshot - it a construct that can be altered. That is something that every good investigator knows.

Science is just getting around to "proving" it.

Now, Loftus and many of her colleagues believe that memories are constantly being updated to fit "post-event information," such as events, details, and comments that are experienced later.
http://www.acfnewsource.org/science/false_memories.html

My apologies, rock. I didn't mean to state that you've categorically adopted a stance that John is lying. You raise excellent points which I was thinking about when talking with John about the nature of what he saw. I was going to say that I will accept that he wasn't misidentifying a known animal but then found that I couldn't sit with the idea without objection. You're very right in keeping on the table that John did not have some sleep-state experience but rather an altered memory of something truly seen.

All avenues need to be considered and first and foremost the idea that John did in fact see what he thinks he saw. I'm sure you can understand my desire for this conversation to proceed in a way where John feels he is benefitting from it and isn't being attacked. I only said what I did to respect the notion initiated by BD and encouraged to be fairly considered by you yet quell any feeling by John that he is about to be ganged up on. I want John to fairly consider all possibilities on the table and not end up walking away from the discussion because of the inevitable point where somebody questions his motives. I'm just trying to be mindful of the way he perceives the discussion because from what I have seen, he will easily decide the room will turn on him.

[desertgal]

All avenues need to be considered and first and foremost the idea that John did in fact see what he thinks he saw.

The problem there, of course, is that that question can never be answered. For one thing, the existence of such a creature has never been established. For another, human memory is extremely fallible. For a third, even with his description, we can't see inside his head. Since John is adamant that his memory is correct, we reach a stalemate with other explanations.

It's not that I don't want to help him, but that I don't see how we can. In the end, we'll be left with a circular debate - he believes in what he saw, and we can't establish otherwise.

[desertgal]

How many people engage in 'casual, recreational lies', decieving their friends and their family, for years on end?


You've obviously never read the VisionFromFeeling threads.

[LONGTABBER PE]

You've obviously never read the VisionFromFeeling threads.

so true

[WGBH]

If you haven't noticed I'm on this kick trying to get you to see the irrational side of Bigfootery and to realize that it can apply to those in your tribe as well. Check this quote from what I suspect might be an excellent new skeptical book about Bigfoot and Bigfootery that William Parcher linked in another thread:

I have seen the irrational side of Bigfootry Kitakaze. I see it every day. It sickens me.

You're welcome, John. I thought that was neat knowing your great friendship with Billy Willard and all he has done for you to see your first words to him. I disagree with Billy. He is helping you by taking you in the woods, which is fantastic, but he is also encouraging you to think you really did see a 9 x 6 ft monster apeman. Of course you know I find that very hard to accept. IMO, it would almost be better to come up with some Burgstahler-type paranormal explanation than to talk about a giant creature like that being a real species roaming the eastern U.S.. It certainly can't compete with human mind explanations which we know are very real phenomena.

Billy has not encouraged me about my sighting being real. Billy and I do not talk about it much because he knows it bothers me.

Let me ask you an honest question. Has anyone recently told you something to the effect of to be careful about letting those bastard skoftics get inside your head with sneaky psychobabble and getting you confused about what you know you saw? I think that is probably the case. Yeah, that's me. I'm that guy. I'm the one that is trying to get you to see that so much of what you talk about very, very easily fits within human mind explanations. None of them means you're bat$#!% crazy. They just mean you're human and susceptible to the same conditions as everybody else.

No, They are not worried about skoftics getting inside my head. They are worried about me getting beaten up.

When I was a kid I could have sworn I saw a ghost or some kind of phantasm. Looking back I realized that I was an imaginative kid at the time who was walking the dark and scary way home and had the coolest wall-eyed old Chinese-Canadian school teacher who would freak the crap out of you with ghost stories to the class. You may not think that a monster apeman would make any sense for your mind to make up but there could have been any number of external stimuli that could have been responsible. Something you may not have remembered at all. You could have watched The Legend of Boggy Creek on afternoon matinee TV a month or year before and it went into your mind and linked to that part of you that's afraid of the woods. Who knows? You might have experienced some trauma in the woods that your mind has recreated as a Bigfoot encounter.

I only saw Boggy Creek a few years ago on you tube. It was Campy and the impression it made on some people as children is lost on me.

The starting point is for you to begin to understand that a species of animal that grows as large as 9 x 6 ft and lives in places like Ohio, Virginia, California, and New York is not going to remain undiscovered by science. It's ludicrous and absurd and the problem right now is that you're surrounded by people with flawed reasoning that are telling you otherwise. I'm not saying that Bigfoot is impossible and your friends like Melissa who don't want you to be affected by teh skoftiks will try and create the false image that we're unreasonable and our minds are just too closed to deal with the truth. So what's the truth then, John? Is someone like Melissa Hovey better equipped to tell you about the truth regarding Bigfoot. Dude. Melissa doesn't know any facts about Bigfoot. Nothing. Nani mo nai. She will be the first to admit that. She hasn't even found a decent, clear maybe Bigfoot print until you guys went together last month to Salt Fork State Park in Ohio and that had only two recognizable digits, was tiny, and was acknowledged as easily being bear.

Kitakaze, the people I research with do not approach potential evidence as Bigfoot related. They spend most of their time trying to debunk it.

So who knows? Well, you have people like Pywacket telling you you're a "knower" because you've seen one with your own eyes. What Pywacket should do is reading where I quoted a large chunk of your encounter story and put in vivid colour the parts that are very consistent with some kind of sleep-related phenomenom. You're 90% certain that the image of the massive beast that turned it face in your direction for just but a moment from 50 yards away in your memory in your mind was nothing but a Bigfoot. I'll agree with that. All I want you to consider was that it may never have really been there.

You know, because friends don't let friends believe in Bigfoot:D:

Pywacket was only trying to show his support for what I am attempting to do here.


Thanks, I'll look for those shows. So on those three shows did you share your encounter story three times?

Yes, I talked about it. I probably was nervous and made some errors too, which I am sure will be dissected.



Oh, c'mon, John. That's not the way they're talking at all. Eric said...



Look at that video again from 3:28 at Eric and Mike's storytelling after Don Keating:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMc_hEFBwOI

They're talking Bigfoot to Bigfoot enthusiasts. They're enticing the people gathered around them and listening intently to believe they encountered Bigfoot. That they never use the definitive words "we saw Bigfoot" is irrelevant. They're engaging in the game of Woods & Wildmen. They're out in the woods hoping to experience and if they're lucky they can have their turn at storytelling and at belief reaffirmation time. They're talking about something throwing a couch pillow-sized rock being tossed and how terrified they were. It's prime Bigfootery. Let's go back Eric's turn with the talking stick (wait, holy crap. That stick he's holding... is that actually a talking stick?:D)...

See, John, that's Bigfootery. That's what Bigfootery is - Eric laying down the heavy Bigfoot vibes with a few casual and unimportant disclaimers while people hang on every word while guys are walking around the crowd with cameras and mics. That was the ABS expedition to Salt Fork State Park and look how those guys were behaving.

Does that behaviour not look at least a little silly to you?

Yes they are talking to Bigfoot enthusiasts. It is a Bigfoot conference. What they are discussing had nothing to do with the ABS. The encounter they are discussing happened in October 2008 and neither of them are ABS members. The crowd is very interested because that is what they come there for, to hear Bigfoot encounter stories. As silly as that may seem to scoftics.

What you don't see is the crowd of Bigfoot researchers standing waaay in the rear with bored looks on their faces. What you do not see is that someone had placed a hoaxed Bigfoot print in a spot during the tour that it would be found. You do not see Don Keating pointing it out and pointing out why the print is fake to all of those people. When I told my encounter story I was shocked by the reaction. I always expect laughs and ridicule. What I expect is what I received in that article from New Zealand.

Do not use a Bigfoot conference as a example of what goes on in Bigfoot research. Promoting a DVD and conference and giving a crowd what they came there for is not the same thing.



The rest of your post are personal issues you seem to have with Melissa. I have nothing to do with that and will not comment on it.

[kitakaze]

I have seen the irrational side of Bigfootry Kitakaze. I see it every day. It sickens me.

Let's not forget the dishonest, profiteering side of Bigfootery, too. I'm sure you must feel differently now but was there never a time you supported Tom Biscardi or hoaxers like him?

I can appreciate how the dishonest or irrational side must try your patience. What is the rational side of Bigfootery, though? I'm not saying there isn't one but what is going on in Bigfootery that isn't mired but poor critical thinking and the will to believe? What puts Bigfoot research on better footing than, say, UFO research or ghost research?

The more interesting question is about the irrational side of John. That part of you that is gripped by panic and fear when you are in the woods. The irrational fear of a creature you almost certainly didn't actually see and have no real reason to be afraid of. How do you think is the best way of dealing with all the damage that experience you remember having has done to your lifestyle and personal freedom?

Billy has not encouraged me about my sighting being real. Billy and I do not talk about it much because he knows it bothers me.

Really? He never encouraged you to think you really saw a 9 x 6 monster apeman? Did anyone encourage you to speak here?:

Billy introducing you (The World's Greatest Bigfoot Hunter;)):

nY70DETmQuo

You telling your story:

FqKpndmEnO0

BTW, you said there that when the creature first stepped out you thought "OK, cool. It's a bear," but when it reached out you saw it had a hand and then you thought "Oh my god, this is Bigfoot." You said you then had a panic attack. I find it a bit strange that you would immediately associate what you were seeing with Bigfoot. Rock and others are suggesting that might have a distorted memory of something real. You had zero experience being in the woods and were under very stressful conditions. You didn't submit a written report of what happened until 16 years after the event. If I had to write a report about a cougar I saw around 16 years ago on Vancouver Island, I know for sure that I would be messing up basic and key details of the encounter. I was looking at it from about the same distance as you for about the same period of time.

No, They are not worried about skoftics getting inside my head. They are worried about me getting beaten up.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you mean by beaten up. Do you mean having your credibility questioned? That's rather inevitable, isn't it? You felt you've been beaten up at the BFF. Do you feel that your treatment here has been less than reasonable?

I only saw Boggy Creek a few years ago on you tube. It was Campy and the impression it made on some people as children is lost on me.

Yeah, I just watched it again not so long ago and had the same reaction. You're missing the point, though, which is that there could have been any number of stimuli to allow your mind to create what you remember seeing. It doesn't need to be a movie you saw when you were young and don't remember but that hasn't been ruled out.

Kitakaze, the people I research with do not approach potential evidence as Bigfoot related. They spend most of their time trying to debunk it.

Right, so what evidence from the ABS Salt Fork expedition was difficult to explain without Bigfoot?

Pywacket was only trying to show his support for what I am attempting to do here.

That's cool but Pywacket was classifying you as a "knower". As in you know that Bigfoot exists. I don't think it can be said at all that you know Bigfoot exists. Again, what is the silver bullet that would destroy the possibilty that you experienced a sleep-related phenomenom or had faulty memory?

Yes, I talked about it. I probably was nervous and made some errors too, which I am sure will be dissected.

I've looked for the three shows you mentioned. All the links are busted. Do you know one that works? BTW, John, you're claiming you saw a 9 x 6 ft monster apeman. You should expect people to dissect your testimony. Extraordinary claims and all that jazz.

The rest of your post are personal issues you seem to have with Melissa. I have nothing to do with that and will not comment on it.

Sure thing. I can see how asking your opinion about the ability of the board you are an administrator of to handle the civil contributions of an informed skeptic puts you in an uncomfortable position. Please understand, however, that while I consider irrational behaviour at the SFB and the ABS worthy of discussion, any criticism I have does not need to be taken as reflecting on you personally.

[WGBH]

Let's not forget the dishonest, profiteering side of Bigfootery, too. I'm sure you must feel differently now but was there never a time you supported Tom Biscardi or hoaxers like him?

Yes, there was a time I listened to Tom's show. He even asked me to come on it and tell about my encounter. Luckily people who knew better warned me to steer clear of him and I did. I used to consider Steve Kulls a friend also.


I can appreciate how the dishonest or irrational side must try your patience. What is the rational side of Bigfootery, though? I'm not saying there isn't one but what is going on in Bigfootery that isn't mired but poor critical thinking and the will to believe? What puts Bigfoot research on better footing than, say, UFO research or ghost research?

I don't know enough about ghost and UFO research to comment on that. I only know that the researchers I work with are not bad critical thinkers.

The more interesting question is about the irrational side of John. That part of you that is gripped by panic and fear when you are in the woods. The irrational fear of a creature you almost certainly didn't actually see and have no real reason to be afraid of. How do you think is the best way of dealing with all the damage that experience you remember having has done to your lifestyle and personal freedom?


I did see it. It stood right there in front of me. I am dealing with my fears by getting back out there. It seems to be working except for the sleep issues.



Really? He never encouraged you to think you really saw a 9 x 6 monster apeman?

Did anyone encourage you to speak here?:

Yes, when the Monster Quest producer did not show up, Don Keating asked me to speak about my encounter. It was not planned, I was only at the conference to attend. I told him I was scared but I would do it. I also told him I would feel more comfortable doing it as a part of Billy's presentation.
Hence Billy introducing me.

And Hell yes I am the World's Greatest Bigfooter!:D I have found as much evidence as anyone has, Nothing.:D


BTW, you said there that when the creature first stepped out you thought "OK, cool. It's a bear," but when it reached out you saw it had a hand and then you thought "Oh my god, this is Bigfoot." You said you then had a panic attack. I find it a bit strange that you would immediately associate what you were seeing with Bigfoot. Rock and others are suggesting that might have a distorted memory of something real. You had zero experience being in the woods and were under very stressful conditions. You didn't submit a written report of what happened until 16 years after the event. If I had to write a report about a cougar I saw around 16 years ago on Vancouver Island, I know for sure that I would be messing up basic and key details of the encounter. I was looking at it from about the same distance as you for about the same period of time.

Why would you find it hard for me to associate a Big ape like creature with hands as a Bigfoot? Yes I was panicky. My memory of the event is fine.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you mean by beaten up. Do you mean having your credibility questioned? That's rather inevitable, isn't it? You felt you've been beaten up at the BFF. Do you feel that your treatment here has been less than reasonable?

No, they meant getting insulted and made fun of and only a few have done that. So it's not so bad thus far.



Yeah, I just watched it again not so long ago and had the same reaction. You're missing the point, though, which is that there could have been any number of stimuli to allow your mind to create what you remember seeing. It doesn't need to be a movie you saw when you were young and don't remember but that hasn't been ruled out.

I told everyone what I knew about Bigfoot. I had casually seen the PGF (and most of the planet has) but did not pay much attention to it and cant really remember when and where I saw it. I also saw Bigfoot fight the six million dollar man. I also think there was a live action cartoon show on Saturday mornings that had Bigfoot in it, but I can remember the name of it. That's about all I can think of.



Right, so what evidence from the ABS Salt Fork expedition was difficult to explain without Bigfoot?

I am not following this question. All evidence is difficult to explain as Bigfoot. It could have been any number of things such as other animals and people.
Why are you singling out the ABS other then your dislike for Melissa?

That's cool but Pywacket was classifying you as a "knower". As in you know that Bigfoot exists. I don't think it can be said at all that you know Bigfoot exists. Again, what is the silver bullet that would destroy the possibilty that you experienced a sleep-related phenomenon or had faulty memory?

Well some people do know that Bigfoot exists. They just have no proof. The silver bullet would be if the sleep related phenomenon happened to me AGAIN. It has not. My memory of that event is fine.



I've looked for the three shows you mentioned. All the links are busted. Do you know one that works? BTW, John, you're claiming you saw a 9 x 6 ft monster apeman. You should expect people to dissect your testimony. Extraordinary claims and all that jazz.



I looked also. I cannot find them either. I think I still have them on my Ipod.

I don't care, dissect away, you can find holes in anything if you look long enough. I know I can.

[DogB]

My memory of the event is fine.

Just a point to think about John.

I’m a scientist, Between my training and my work I’ve been a practicing scientist for more than twenty years now. I’ve been professionally trained to have a good memory and an iron grip on reality.

On one occasion that I know about (and I’m sure many more that I don’t) my memory has fooled me completely. I argued with 3 equally qualified colleges about what we had seen and eventually had to drive a 1000 mile round trip to finally convince myself of how badly I had fooled myself.

I believed (right in my gut) I knew what I had seen. I can still produce the mental image right now. And it’s wrong…just plain wrong.

Don’t underestimate the potential for your brain to fool itself. It doesn’t mean you’re stupid, crazy or weak willed. It just means you’re human.

[Spektator]

Way, way upthread I told of how late one night I was driving on a lonely road when off to the side I saw this seven-foot tall shambling thing, brown, with a tiny head for its size. It took me a second to register that it was a guy with a kid riding on his shoulders and a dark brown raincoat draped over them both. For a moment there I really thought I had seen a "creature" of some kind, and even now when I remember how it first looked--well, if I hadn't slowed enough to recognize the two for what they were, I'd have an encounter story to tell.

[kitakaze]

Yes, there was a time I listened to Tom's show. He even asked me to come on it and tell about my encounter. Luckily people who knew better warned me to steer clear of him and I did. I used to consider Steve Kulls a friend also.

Right. I had this in mind when I asked you that:

John Cartwright responds:
July 4th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Hello Everyone,

Mr. Kulls and Ms. Sawyer are Smart, honest and professional. You can trust them to give educated and experienced opinions of reported sightings. Mr. Biscardi can sometimes be over enthusiastic when it comes to being in the media spotlight, but he is very passionate about solving the mystery. Please remember Tom and his team are out there giving a great effort daily.

John Cartwright


http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/kulls-biscardi/

It's good that you've found people of better repute to explore Bigfoot with.

I don't know enough about ghost and UFO research to comment on that. I only know that the researchers I work with are not bad critical thinkers.

I won't say that the people you are involved with in Bigfootery now are gullible or very bad critical thinkers but I think when you are seriously making an effort to find Bigfoot evidence near the handicapped section of Salt Fork State Park in Ohio, it's not unfair to question what critical thinking leads them to believe there is that potential to find something reliable in the way of evidence.

I did see it. It stood right there in front of me. I am dealing with my fears by getting back out there. It seems to be working except for the sleep issues.

But it did not stand right in front of you. You said it was 50 yards away. Also, now your downplaying the severe effects of your PTSD where before you were emphasizing them. An inability to be in the woods without gripping fear, not being able to get proper sleep, and waking up screaming all the time is not fine.

Why would you find it hard for me to associate a Big ape like creature with hands as a Bigfoot? Yes I was panicky. My memory of the event is fine.

I don't think it is. I don't think you can clearly judge how accurate your memory of a 27 year old events is. It may be vivid in your mind but that in no way means it's accurate. I have plenty of vivid memories of things that didn't actually happen or happen the way I remember them. John, I can show you people who have had apparent encounters with reptoids as vivid as anything you experienced. These people will not be swayed from the idea they saw in front of their eyes a reptilian humanoid far closer than your Bigfoot. Those reptilian humanoid sightings are no less fantastical than your 9 x 6 ft monster apeman.

I told everyone what I knew about Bigfoot. I had casually seen the PGF (and most of the planet has) but did not pay much attention to it and cant really remember when and where I saw it. I also saw Bigfoot fight the six million dollar man. I also think there was a live action cartoon show on Saturday mornings that had Bigfoot in it, but I can remember the name of it. That's about all I can think of.

Again, please try and understand that remembering the source of a stimulus that would allow you to create a monster apeman in your mind doesn't need at all to be conciously remembered. There doesn't even need to be one. That is the human mind. It can create things you've never seen. It can create things you never remember having seen.

I am not following this question. All evidence is difficult to explain as Bigfoot. It could have been any number of things such as other animals and people.
Why are you singling out the ABS other then your dislike for Melissa?


It has nothing to do with petty beefs with Melissa's weirdness. I bring up the ABS expedition simply because that was something you were personally involved in and have it in your capacity to objectively reflect upon. The question which you answered is that there is no good reason to think your group found any good evidence of Bigfoot in Salt Fork State Park.

Well some people do know that Bigfoot exists. They just have no proof. The silver bullet would be if the sleep related phenomenon happened to me AGAIN. It has not. My memory of that event is fine.

No, John. Nobody knows Bigfoot exists. Without empirical knowledge there is no knowing in any verifiable way. For you to say that demonstrates a desire to believe.

That is no kind of silver bullet. The human mind doesn't work that way. Think about the uniqueness of the circumstances of the situation you were in. I've already pointed them out and how they are easily conducive to unreliable memories. I have personally experienced a vivid memory that I can describe in intricate detail of a massive spider clamping onto my hand with its wicked fangs. It never happened. I can describe in better detail than your Bigfoot what my spider looked like and the sensation of its attack while I was unable to resist it. These are the things the mind can do. I'm not nuts and I know that there wasn't any real huge spider accosting me. It never happened again. Just becaus eit didn't happen again doesn't mean I went to the exterminator asking to get the fat, evil spiders out of my home.

If you refuse to consider any possibility beyond actually having seen what you think you did 27 years ago, there is nothing your participation in this thread can come to. If you want to be a free man liberated from crippling fear, you can at least try to consider the things we are talking about to you. Frankly, once you've decide there is no way you didn't see a 9 x 6 monster apeman, you're too far gone. There's no turning back.

[tsig]

Right. I had this in mind when I asked you that:



http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/kulls-biscardi/

It's good that you've found people of better repute to explore Bigfoot with.



I won't say that the people you are involved with in Bigfootery now are gullible or very bad critical thinkers but I think when you are seriously making an effort to find Bigfoot evidence near the handicapped section of Salt Fork State Park in Ohio, it's not unfair to question what critical thinking leads them to believe there is that potential to find something reliable in the way of evidence.



But it did not stand right in front of you. You said it was 50 yards away. Also, now your downplaying the severe effects of your PTSD where before you were emphasizing them. An inability to be in the woods without gripping fear, not being able to get proper sleep, and waking up screaming all the time is not fine.



I don't think it is. I don't think you can clearly judge how accurate your memory of a 27 year old events is. It may be vivid in your mind but that in no way means it's accurate. I have plenty of vivid memories of things that didn't actually happen or happen the way I remember them. John, I can show you people who have had apparent encounters with reptoids as vivid as anything you experienced. These people will not be swayed from the idea they saw in front of their eyes a reptilian humanoid far closer than your Bigfoot. Those reptilian humanoid sightings are no less fantastical than your 9 x 6 ft monster apeman.



Again, please try and understand that remembering the source of a stimulus that would allow you to create a monster apeman in your mind doesn't need at all to be conciously remembered. There doesn't even need to be one. That is the human mind. It can create things you've never seen. It can create things you never remember having seen.



It has nothing to do with petty beefs with Melissa's weirdness. I bring up the ABS expedition simply because that was something you were personally involved in and have it in your capacity to objectively reflect upon. The question which you answered is that there is no good reason to think your group found any good evidence of Bigfoot in Salt Fork State Park.



No, John. Nobody knows Bigfoot exists. Without empirical knowledge there is no knowing in any verifiable way. For you to say that demonstrates a desire to believe.

That is no kind of silver bullet. The human mind doesn't work that way. Think about the uniqueness of the circumstances of the situation you were in. I've already pointed them out and how they are easily conducive to unreliable memories. I have personally experienced a vivid memory that I can describe in intricate detail of a massive spider clamping onto my hand with its wicked fangs. It never happened. I can describe in better detail than your Bigfoot what my spider looked like and the sensation of its attack while I was unable to resist it. These are the things the mind can do. I'm not nuts and I know that there wasn't any real huge spider accosting me. It never happened again. Just becaus eit didn't happen again doesn't mean I went to the exterminator asking to get the fat, evil spiders out of my home.

If you refuse to consider any possibility beyond actually having seen what you think you did 27 years ago, there is nothing your participation in this thread can come to. If you want to be a free man liberated from crippling fear, you can at least try to consider the things we are talking about to you. Frankly, once you've decide there is no way you didn't see a 9 x 6 monster apeman, you're too far gone. There's no turning back.

I think I need a BF dictionary:

Field Work = camping in state parks

Research = gossiping about said camping trips

Sightings = everything except seeing BF

[WGBH]

Right. I had this in mind when I asked you that:

It's good that you've found people of better repute to explore Bigfoot with.

Yes, it certainly is. And I never explored anything with them except chatting on the internet.



I won't say that the people you are involved with in Bigfootery now are gullible or very bad critical thinkers but I think when you are seriously making an effort to find Bigfoot evidence near the handicapped section of Salt Fork State Park in Ohio, it's not unfair to question what critical thinking leads them to believe there is that potential to find something reliable in the way of evidence.

Because there have been SEVERAL sighting reports from that specific area.



But it did not stand right in front of you. You said it was 50 yards away. Also, now your downplaying the severe effects of your PTSD where before you were emphasizing them. An inability to be in the woods without gripping fear, not being able to get proper sleep, and waking up screaming all the time is not fine.

I am not downplaying anything. I just try not to dwell on them. They are always there.


I don't think it is. I don't think you can clearly judge how accurate your memory of a 27 year old events is. It may be vivid in your mind but that in no way means it's accurate. I have plenty of vivid memories of things that didn't actually happen or happen the way I remember them. John, I can show you people who have had apparent encounters with reptoids as vivid as anything you experienced. These people will not be swayed from the idea they saw in front of their eyes a reptilian humanoid far closer than your Bigfoot. Those reptilian humanoid sightings are no less fantastical than your 9 x 6 ft monster apeman.

That is just your opinion and you are welcome to it.

Again, please try and understand that remembering the source of a stimulus that would allow you to create a monster apeman in your mind doesn't need at all to be conciously remembered. There doesn't even need to be one. That is the human mind. It can create things you've never seen. It can create things you never remember having seen.

OK



The question which you answered is that there is no good reason to think your group found any good evidence of Bigfoot in Salt Fork State Park.


Not until we hear from the parties who are studying the evidence and a report is finished.



No, John. Nobody knows Bigfoot exists. Without empirical knowledge there is no knowing in any verifiable way. For you to say that demonstrates a desire to believe.

A desire to believe? What thread have you been reading? I do believe. I saw one.

That is no kind of silver bullet. The human mind doesn't work that way. Think about the uniqueness of the circumstances of the situation you were in. I've already pointed them out and how they are easily conducive to unreliable memories. I have personally experienced a vivid memory that I can describe in intricate detail of a massive spider clamping onto my hand with its wicked fangs. It never happened. I can describe in better detail than your Bigfoot what my spider looked like and the sensation of its attack while I was unable to resist it. These are the things the mind can do. I'm not nuts and I know that there wasn't any real huge spider accosting me. It never happened again. Just becausei t didn't happen again doesn't mean I went to the exterminator asking to get the fat, evil spiders out of my home.

What brought that spider sighting on ?

If you refuse to consider any possibility beyond actually having seen what you think you did 27 years ago, there is nothing your participation in this thread can come to. If you want to be a free man liberated from crippling fear, you can at least try to consider the things we are talking about to you. Frankly, once you've decide there is no way you didn't see a 9 x 6 monster apeman, you're too far gone. There's no turning back.

Fine, I can live with that.



I guess this means we are done here?

[atpeace]

I think I need a BF dictionary:

Field Work = camping in state parks

Research = gossiping about said camping trips

Sightings = everything except seeing BF


And don't forget:

Peer Review = "Yeah, I heard it too!"

ap

[WGBH]

I think I need a BF dictionary:

Field Work = camping in state parks

Well, unless you have a huge chunk of private property with a history of sightings, where else would you suggest we do field work except public land?

Research = gossiping about said camping trips

No research is work, gossiping is what you are doing here on the forums.

Sightings = everything except seeing BF

I saw one, scroll up and read.

[desertyeti]

And don't forget:

Peer Review = "Yeah, I heard it too!"

ap


Data = "anecdotes, blurry photos, and bogus tracks"

Analysis = "telling you how to interpret anecdotes, blurry photos, and bogus tracks"

Multiple Working Hypotheses = "what's that?! Bigfoot IS the answer! Kneel before Patty!"

[WGBH]

Data = "anecdotes, blurry photos, and bogus tracks"

Analysis = "telling you how to interpret anecdotes, blurry photos, and bogus tracks"

Multiple Working Hypotheses = "what's that?! Bigfoot IS the answer! Kneel before Patty!"

Can't argue with that. We have nothing and too many present nothing as evidence.

[SweatyYeti]

WGBH wrote:
I guess this means we are done here?



This discussion was done, as soon as it began, John. :)


That's the reason why I posted this...back on page 3...post #119...



Here is a beautiful example of the weight attributed to Bigfoot evidence, in Randi-Land...:)...


I recently asked kitakaze...(a.k.a..."Thunder-Cheeks")....to provide an example of 'Bigfoot evidence' which carries some amount of weight....(weak, or moderately strong)....


Give us all ONE example of Bigfoot evidence which carries either a low, fair, or moderate amount of weight, indicating Bigfoot may exist.



And this is the strongest-rated evidence he could come up with...




Sure thing, Fibby... err... Sweaty.

The PGF has the extremely remote chance of actually showing a Bigfoot.




"Extremely remote"... :wink:


How then could John's report possibly be given any weight, above only a 'remote probability'?



This just in.....from Old Thunder-Butt...:cool:...



Incredibly poor or weak evidence to suggest Bigfoot may exist? Yes.

Reliable or high quality evidence of significant weight to suggest Bigfoot may exist? No. Zilch.






Here are some more recent quotes, highlighting the 'potential weight' a sighting report can have, here in Randi-Land...

Vortigern:
You are dismissing reasonable alternatives to your fantasy that a 9 foot beast dwells....


kitakaze:
Nobody knows Bigfoot exists.




And, a not-so-recent gem....from Greg...:cool:...


"So far, I am not aware of any evidence which indicates with any degree of likeliness, however small, that Bigfoot creatures exist....anywhere in the world."

[WGBH]

So what's the big deal SY? I can talk about it here, if I am asked. I am fine with that.