Bigfoot- Anybody Seen one?

[SweatyYeti]

So what's the big deal SY? I can talk about it here, if I am asked. I am fine with that.



No problem, John...:)...I wasn't inferring that you shouldn't discuss your sighting here.

I was just providing some info for you, as a head's-up as to the direction the conversation was inevitably heading. That's all.


I'm glad that you're discussing it here......because, as I pointed-out in a previous post...as far as I'm concerned, the more you talk about your sighting, on any board (without seriously contradicting yourself, of course) the stronger the weight it carries.

[desertgal]

I'm glad that you're discussing it here......because, as I pointed-out in a previous post...as far as I'm concerned, the more you talk about your sighting, on any board (without seriously contradicting yourself, of course) the stronger the weight it carries.

"The stronger the weight it carries"?

Towards what? Proof of the existence of Bigfoot? Even if consistently related, it is still a 27 year old sighting made by a 9 year old boy whose memory, as a grown man, is as fallible as any other. Really, not that much different than a thousand other pieces of anecdotal evidence-except, possibly, even less reliable because it is being recounted after a significant passage of time.

How is that weighty evidence towards the existence of Bigfoot?

(No offense intended, John.)

[SweatyYeti]

"The stronger the weight it carries"?

Towards what? Proof of the existence of Bigfoot?




In a word....No.


Never will you see this report on the NBC Nightly News...


"Earlier today, Charlie in Cinncinnati threw a nutty like you wouldn't believe, swearing up and down that he actually saw a real Bigfoot....going so far as to hold his breath for 4 minutes, till he turned blue and croaked.

Scientists say there's NO WAY he ever would have given his life for the cause, unless he truly did see such a beast...therefore, scientists are hailing this event as tragic proof positive of bigfoot's existence.
Case closed".



"Eyewitness sighting reports" of Bigfoot will never rise to the level of hard, undeniable proof of Bigfoot's existence.

[LTC8K6]

the more you talk about your sighting, on any board (without seriously contradicting yourself, of course) the stronger the weight it carries.

Just when I thought Sweaty couldn't surprise me he comes up with a logic nuke!

[SweatyYeti]

Desertgal wrote:

"The stronger the weight it carries"?

Towards what?



In-between the two (known) extremes of hard proof, and nothing....there is an un-known gray-area...of "weight"...defined in terms of "probabilities".


That 'gray-area' (probabilities....chances...odds) is where the varying strengths of Bigfoot sighting reports lie.

[William Parcher]

Gray area might be synonymous with blurry... like Bigfoot.


"I think Bigfoot is blurry, that's the problem. It's not the photographer's fault. Bigfoot is blurry. And that's extra scary to me, because there's a large, out-of-focus monster roaming the countryside. Run. He's fuzzy. Get outta here!"

Mitch Hedberg (http://www.entertonement.com/clips/jldzshdsrh--Bigfoot-is-BlurryComedy-Mitch-Hedberg-Mitch-Hedberg-Strategic-Grill-Locations-)

[desertgal]

In-between the two (known) extremes of hard proof, and nothing....there is an un-known gray-area...of "weight"...defined in terms of "probabilities".


That 'gray-area' (probabilities....chances...odds) is where the varying strengths of Bigfoot sighting reports lie.

A 27 year old memory of a then 9 year old boy increases the probability of the existence of Bigfoot?

Huh.

I saw Santa Claus when I was nine. Granted, Santa has never been proven to exist, and most insist he is just a fable made up to sell merchandise, but he sure has been seen by a lot of kids over the years. So, that must increase the probability that he does exist.

Sorry, but the only probability that increases with anecdotal sightings of Bigfoot is the probability of reinforcing belief in his existence. They do not increase the probability of his existence.

Gray area might be synonymous with blurry... like Bigfoot.

"I think Bigfoot is blurry, that's the problem. It's not the photographer's fault. Bigfoot is blurry. And that's extra scary to me, because there's a large, out-of-focus monster roaming the countryside. Run. He's fuzzy. Get outta here!"

Mitch Hedberg

I love that quote. :D

[HarryHenderson]

(I) Gotta give Kitakaze an A+ for his 'passionate effort' in trying to convince WGBH things are not always as they seem. And doing it with a consistent respect for WGBH's very real angst. Sadly, I don't think it's gonna change his mind at this juncture. There is always hope though, and the fact WGBH has only been 'back' into Bigfooting just a few years gives hope he'll 'see the light' soon enough. And while I won't pretend to understand the 'trauma' he experienced in his 'sighting', it seems to me that a believable, 'reasonable explanation' of it all would substantially diminish if not alleviate entirely the after-effects he's been experiencing all these years. Or not.

I wonder if hearing/experiencing/reading REAL cases/stories/instances (involving more 'everyday' activities than Bigfooting) where it was clearly proven (sooner or later) a 'witness' was completely mistaken and otherwise simply wrong about what he/she said they 'saw and experienced'...would help? No? 'Cause I don't think he's convinced he SAW Bigfoot™ near as much as he's convinced his MIND ISN'T/WASN'T playing tricks on him.

[makaya325]

A 27 year old memory of a then 9 year old boy increases the probability of the existence of Bigfoot?

Huh.

I saw Santa Claus when I was nine. Granted, Santa has never been proven to exist, and most insist he is just a fable made up to sell merchandise, but he sure has been seen by a lot of kids over the years. So, that must increase the probability that he does exist.

Sorry, but the only probability that increases with anecdotal sightings of Bigfoot is the probability of reinforcing belief in his existence. They do not increase the probability of his existence.



I love that quote. :D


Just to add here: The more sightings, the LESS likely of its existence. Everytime someone sees a bigfoot, and finds no evidence, the less likely it is for it to exist, since every added sighting opens for opportunities for evidence to be gathered

[WGBH]

A 27 year old memory of a then 9 year old boy increases the probability of the existence of Bigfoot?


If you are talking about me I was 17. Not that it matters.

[SweatyYeti]

A 27 year old memory of a then 9 (17...actually) year old boy increases the probability of the existence of Bigfoot?

Huh.

I saw Santa Claus when I was nine. Granted, Santa has never been proven to exist, and most insist he is just a fable made up to sell merchandise, but he sure has been seen by a lot of kids over the years. So, that must increase the probability that he does exist.

Sorry, but the only probability that increases with anecdotal sightings of Bigfoot is the probability of reinforcing belief in his existence. They do not increase the probability of his existence.




Throw in a "Yup" with that "Huh". :)


One big difference with your 'Santa' analogy.......how many 17 year olds report seeing Santa Claus? How many 35 year olds report seeing him? How many 50 year olds report seeing him?


Nice try, desertgal....but perhaps you can find a more realistic analogy.

[makaya325]

Throw in a "Yup" with that "Huh". :)


One big difference with your 'Santa' analogy.......how many 17 year olds report seeing Santa Claus? How many 35 year olds report seeing him? How many 50 year olds report seeing him?


Nice try, desertgal....but perhaps you can find a more realistic analogy.

Sweaty does have a point: However, he does not address the fact that as each sighting is reported, the verifiable evidence stays the SAME? It seems like whenever this creature is reported, every "Physical case" is full of contradictory reports, bogus tracks, and artificial fibers "Unknown hair" is viewed as high ranking evidence.

[WGBH]

(I) Gotta give Kitakaze an A+ for his 'passionate effort' in trying to convince WGBH things are not always as they seem. And doing it with a consistent respect for WGBH's very real angst. Sadly, I don't think it's gonna change his mind at this juncture. There is always hope though, and the fact WGBH has only been 'back' into Bigfooting just a few years gives hope he'll 'see the light' soon enough. And while I won't pretend to understand the 'trauma' he experienced in his 'sighting', it seems to me that a believable, 'reasonable explanation' of it all would substantially diminish if not alleviate entirely the after-effects he's been experiencing all these years. Or not.

I wonder if hearing/experiencing/reading REAL cases/stories/instances (involving more 'everyday' activities than Bigfooting) where it was clearly proven (sooner or later) a 'witness' was completely mistaken and otherwise simply wrong about what he/she said they 'saw and experienced'...would help? No? 'Cause I don't think he's convinced he SAW Bigfoot™ near as much as he's convinced his MIND ISN'T/WASN'T playing tricks on him.


I agree Harry, Kit and most of the people involved in this thread make it very interesting and they have great ideas. The thing is, I never came here trying to get them to change my mind. Although, if a strong enough reason came up, I may have. It just didnt. I heard the same things I have always encountered before.

I love learning new things and there are smart people here to teach me. I would love to get research ideas and constructive research criticism from the people here. I just do not need negativity and ridicule. I get plenty of that already. I know it is silly to most of you that we are out there chasing a imaginary ape man through the woods, but I am not a liar or a bad person. I guess I am just wierd. We do not need to be nasty to each other.

[desertgal]

Throw in a "Yup" with that "Huh". :)


One big difference with your 'Santa' analogy.......how many 17 year olds report seeing Santa Claus? How many 35 year olds report seeing him? How many 50 year olds report seeing him?


Nice try, desertgal....but perhaps you can find a more realistic analogy.

Well, sure, because the idea of a large hominid roaming the North American continent for centuries without anyone getting a single shred of verifiable proof of his existence is so much more realistic than the myth of Santa Claus...after all, adults see Bigfoot, and adults are NEVER mistaken, NEVER make stuff up, NEVER scam, NEVER hallucinate, NEVER dream, etc....:rolleyes:

[makaya325]

Well, sure, because the idea of a large hominid roaming the North American continent for centuries without anyone getting a single shred of verifiable proof of his existence is so much more realistic than the myth of Santa Claus...after all, adults see Bigfoot, and adults are NEVER mistaken, NEVER make stuff up, NEVER scam, NEVER hallucinate, NEVER dream, etc....:rolleyes:

Desert, while one is based on real people( Santa Claus WAS real. Saint Nicholas is proof), the other one is believed to be a modern version of Gigantopithecus Blacki, yet with ZERO evidence of on NA!

I would take my chances with SANTA!:p

[desertgal]

Desert, while one is based on real people( Santa Claus WAS real. Saint Nicholas is proof)

No, and I've explained this to you before. The Saint Nicholas you keep referring to was Saint Nicholas of Myra (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=23), and he was NOT the basis for the Santa Claus myth. The Santa Claus myth (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=35) began with a satirical fiction written by Washington Irving, and the only common denominators between Saint Nicholas of Myra and Irving's Saint Nicholas were the name, and that they both had Dutch origins. Irving's fictional character evolved into "Santa Claus", used to promote commercial sales at Christmas time.

Saint Nicholas of Myra lived the qualities that encouraged the Catholic Church to confer sainthood upon him. Santa Claus is a marketing tool. To insist they are one and the same makes light of the compassionate and humanitarian efforts of the real St. Nicholas.

[Vortigern99]

No, and I've explained this to you before. The Saint Nicholas you keep referring to was Saint Nicholas of Myra (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=23), and he was NOT the basis for the Santa Claus myth. The Santa Claus myth (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=35) began with a satirical fiction written by Washington Irving, and the only common denominators between Saint Nicholas of Myra and Irving's Saint Nicholas were the name, and that they both had Dutch origins. Irving's fictional character evolved into "Santa Claus", used to promote commercial sales at Christmas time.

Saint Nicholas of Myra lived the qualities that encouraged the Catholic Church to confer sainthood upon him. Santa Claus is a marketing tool. To insist they are one and the same makes light of the compassionate and humanitarian efforts of the real St. Nicholas.

The above is not wholly accurate, though pieces of it are. The Dutch Sinter Klaas, aka the Northern European figure of "Father Christmas" is far older than Irving's story, stretching back to medieval times -- and possibly before, if we can accept the similarities between the Germanic god Wotan and the various elements of "Father Christmas" (under many names in many nations) as he is depicted/portrayed/imagined today. In short, Santa Claus is just another name -- the American one -- for an ancient figure of Yule and the Winter Solstice.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled bigfoot discussion. (Interestingly, the two are related, bigfoot and Santa, insofar as both have ties to the "Wild Man of the Woods" figure known the world over. But that is not really the topic here, and I apologize for the sidebar.)

[desertgal]

The above is not wholly accurate, though pieces of it are. The Dutch Sinter Klaas, aka the Northern European figure of "Father Christmas" is far older than Irving's story, stretching back to medieval times -- and possibly before, if we can accept the similarities between the Germanic god Wotan and the various elements of "Father Christmas" (under many names in many nations) as he is depicted/portrayed/imagined today. In short, Santa Claus is just another name -- the American one -- for an ancient figure of Yule and the Winter Solstice.


--Thread drift--

Thanks for the correction-interesting info. Still, my point remains - Mak should not confuse the St. Nicholas of Irving's story with St. Nicholas of Myra. :)

--End Thread Drift--

[makaya325]

No, and I've explained this to you before. The Saint Nicholas you keep referring to was Saint Nicholas of Myra (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=23), and he was NOT the basis for the Santa Claus myth. The Santa Claus myth (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=35) began with a satirical fiction written by Washington Irving, and the only common denominators between Saint Nicholas of Myra and Irving's Saint Nicholas were the name, and that they both had Dutch origins. Irving's fictional character evolved into "Santa Claus", used to promote commercial sales at Christmas time.

Saint Nicholas of Myra lived the qualities that encouraged the Catholic Church to confer sainthood upon him. Santa Claus is a marketing tool. To insist they are one and the same makes light of the compassionate and humanitarian efforts of the real St. Nicholas.


What i believe, is that an old ancient myth, involving presents, promoted and supported bf's existence. BTW, i just spoke to bf!

Makaya: So, bf, how r u gonna dead wit the jref on your Pregnant sun tan lotion? Sry to say, patty, but me and WP think you looked a little "Flabby" in Both pictures. Im sorry to say! Lmao

[SweatyYeti]

Well, sure, because the idea of a large hominid roaming the North American continent for centuries without anyone getting a single shred of verifiable proof of his existence is so much more realistic than the myth of Santa Claus...after all, adults see Bigfoot, and adults are NEVER mistaken, NEVER make stuff up, NEVER scam, NEVER hallucinate, NEVER dream, etc....:rolleyes:



The basic...(or 'root')...difference between the possibility of Bigfoot's existence, and the possibility of Santa Claus' existence lies in the concept of "plausibility".

Before weight can be assigned to a piece of evidence...the subject's (of the evidence..."Bigfoot", or "Santa") basic 'plausibility' needs to be determined.

One simply considers whether the basic idea of another species of bipedal primate existing is plausible......and, is the basic idea of a guy flying around the world in one night, in a sleigh being 'driven' by magical reindeer, bringing presents to all the kids in the world plausible?


Another example:

Suppose, for example, that a reasonably reliable source tells me...

(a) that President Clinton has vetoed legislation that places restrictions on trade with China and...

(b) that Newt Gingrich has switched to the Democratic party.

Most people would be much more confident of the truth of the first report than of the second, even though the source is identical.

The difference lies in the a priori plausibility of the claims.


Here's a link to the article:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/extraproof.html

[kitakaze]

Because there have been SEVERAL sighting reports from that specific area.

Is that it? That is all it took to get ABS members from all over the country to decide to undertake organizing an expedition in search of reliable evidence of Bigfoot there? Didn't anybody raise the obvious objection that the largest land mammal in North America probably isn't hanging about the pavilion and handicapped area of a hugely popular, not at all remote McPark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU_Ti7Nlka4) that is covered every week with Bigfoot enthusiasts and known to your Bigfoot searching group to be worked by Bigfoot hoaxers?

Here's just some of the weekly Salt Fork footers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJQJa40-auc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LabFbYJbcL4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI4JaI2QYYI

And here's some of your Salt Fork Bigfoot hoaxers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNa9ijjZqNg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWK5vg6K9vU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb6_3Nrdmzk&feature=related

Seems pretty out there to me to seriously think a breeding population of massive wood apes are remaining undiscovered by science whilst tossing rocks at Bigfoot enthusiasts in regular public usage places of Salt Fork.

I am not downplaying anything. I just try not to dwell on them. They are always there.


Have you ever considered that maybe it's not Bigfoot enthusiasts you need but rather proper therapy and counselling?

That is just your opinion and you are welcome to it.

What is not my opinion are people who claim face to face encounters with Reptoids.

What makes John Cartwright's experience less fantastical than Barry King's?:

GIzRSzpydPY

More Reptoids (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96beoSorFSw&NR=1).

We can't just blow those guys off, John. There's some guy out there that will get up in front of a Ufology conference with the shakes and the wavering voice who will emotionally recount his Reptoid sighting and stun the audience with the rawness of the tale. What makes his experience less likely than yours?

A desire to believe? What thread have you been reading? I do believe. I saw one.

It's quite simple. When you say there are those that know Bigfoot exists you are literally saying that categorically Bigfoot exists. If skeptics make definitive statements like that (Bigfoot doesn't exist), Bigfoot enthusiasts have a hissy fit. You can not show that you didn't experience a dream/hallucination/distorted memory and you have no reliable evidence to suggest otherwise. The fact that you didn't have such an experience again says nothing more than the fact that the conditions that created the situation were not again replicated. You weren't placed hungry, tired, and scared with a gun up in an effective isolation chamber in the dark of night again.

What brought that spider sighting on ?

Other than to say the human mind, I have no idea. I had certainly never seen such a spider before yet there I was having sleep paralysis and vividly seeing a great big spider wrapping its many awful legs around my hand and sinking its evil fangs into the flesh between my thumb and forefinger. It's the kind of thing that when it's over and you're fully awake you just want to put it out of your head. It never happened again and doesn't make me flip out when I see a spider but I'm not in any rush to pick one up. Basically spiders are to me what bears are to Stephen Colbert.

Fine, I can live with that.

I guess this means we are done here?

We're done in the sense that you've made it clear you will irrationally refuse to accept any other explanation than having seen a real Bigfoot. I'm not insulting you when I say irrational but it is simply not rational to look at the circumstances of your experience and deny that it may be the very real human phenomenom of dreams/hallucinations/distorted memories.

Before I tried two separate tracks with you. One where I approached it from the angle that you did not see what you think you saw because 9 x 6 ft monster apemen do not exist in the Great Dismal Swamp and the other accepting the premise fully.

So that's the only way you will allow us to proceed; to accept your sighting based on your feelings about it and drop any explanations regarding the fallibility of human perception. So let's go that way. I gave you links about who to contact for the Great Dismal Swamp. Will you take the proactive role of contacing them and discussing the things we have talked about? Remember that the other sighting you linked (http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=6267) was not the same individual as yours but one that was taller and had a different appearance. We're talking about what would be a real species of animal and in fact the largest mammal in North America right there in North Carolina. We don't need Bigfoot enthusiasts to help us know what's really going on so are we going to do this or what? C'mon, I'll even give us a theme song...

Nq8QDbp_oiw

Do you think these guys have to worry about getting eaten by 9 x 6 ft monster apemen?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BDa16VVSx8

[makaya325]

Is that it? That is all it took to get ABS members from all over the country to decide to undertake organizing an expedition in search of reliable evidence of Bigfoot there? Didn't anybody raise the obvious objection that the largest land mammal in North America probably isn't hanging about the pavilion and handicapped area of a hugely popular, not at all remote McPark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU_Ti7Nlka4) that is covered every week with Bigfoot enthusiasts and known to your Bigfoot searching group to be worked by Bigfoot hoaxers?

Here's just some of the weekly Salt Fork footers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJQJa40-auc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LabFbYJbcL4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI4JaI2QYYI

And here's some of your Salt Fork Bigfoot hoaxers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNa9ijjZqNg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWK5vg6K9vU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb6_3Nrdmzk&feature=related

Seems pretty out there to me to seriously think a breeding population of massive wood apes are remaining undiscovered by science whilst tossing rocks at Bigfoot enthusiasts in regular public usage places of Salt Fork.



Have you ever considered that maybe it's not Bigfoot enthusiasts you need but rather proper therapy and counselling?



What is not my opinion are people who claim face to face encounters with Reptoids.

What makes John Cartwright's experience less fantastical than Barry King's?:

GIzRSzpydPY

More Reptoids (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96beoSorFSw&NR=1).

We can't just blow those guys off, John. There's some guy out there that will get up in front of a Ufology conference with the shakes and the wavering voice who will emotionally recount his Reptoid sighting and stun the audience with the rawness of the tale. What makes his experience less likely than yours?



It's quite simple. When you say there are those that know Bigfoot exists you are literally saying that categorically Bigfoot exists. If skeptics make definitive statements like that (Bigfoot doesn't exist), Bigfoot enthusiasts have a hissy fit. You can not show that you didn't experience a dream/hallucination/distorted memory and you have no reliable evidence to suggest otherwise. The fact that you didn't have such an experience again says nothing more than the fact that the conditions that created the situation were not again replicated. You weren't placed hungry, tired, and scared with a gun up in an effective isolation chamber in the dark of night again.



Other than to say the human mind, I have no idea. I had certainly never seen such a spider before yet there I was having sleep paralysis and vividly seeing a great big spider wrapping its many awful legs around my hand and sinking its evil fangs into the flesh between my thumb and forefinger. It's the kind of thing that when it's over and you're fully awake you just want to put it out of your head. It never happened again and doesn't make me flip out when I see a spider but I'm not in any rush to pick one up. Basically spiders are to me what bears are to Stephen Colbert.



We're done in the sense that you've made it clear you will irrationally refuse to accept any other explanation than having seen a real Bigfoot. I'm not insulting you when I say irrational but it is simply not rational to look at the circumstances of your experience and deny that it may be the very real human phenomenom of dreams/hallucinations/distorted memories.

Before I tried two separate tracks with you. One where I approached it from the angle that you did not see what you think you saw because 9 x 6 ft monster apemen do not exist in the Great Dismal Swamp and the other accepting the premise fully.

So that's the only way you will allow us to proceed; to accept your sighting based on your feelings about it and drop any explanations regarding the fallibility of human perception. So let's go that way. I gave you links about who to contact for the Great Dismal Swamp. Will you take the proactive role of contacing them and discussing the things we have talked about? Remember that the other sighting you linked (http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=6267) was not the same individual as yours but one that was taller and had a different appearance. We're talking about what would be a real species of animal and in fact the largest mammal in North America right there in North Carolina. We don't need Bigfoot enthusiasts to help us know what's really going on so are we going to do this or what? C'mon, I'll even give us a theme song...

Nq8QDbp_oiw

Do you think these guys have to worry about getting eaten by 9 x 6 ft monster apemen?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BDa16VVSx8

Wgbh, out of any researcher, I encourage you to promote synergy!!!

[makaya325]

Is that it? That is all it took to get ABS members from all over the country to decide to undertake organizing an expedition in search of reliable evidence of Bigfoot there? Didn't anybody raise the obvious objection that the largest land mammal in North America probably isn't hanging about the pavilion and handicapped area of a hugely popular, not at all remote McPark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU_Ti7Nlka4) that is covered every week with Bigfoot enthusiasts and known to your Bigfoot searching group to be worked by Bigfoot hoaxers?

Here's just some of the weekly Salt Fork footers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJQJa40-auchy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LabFbYJbcL4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI4JaI2QYYI

And here's some of your Salt Fork Bigfoot hoaxers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNa9ijjZqNg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWK5vg6K9vU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb6_3Nrdmzk&feature=related

Seems pretty out there to me to seriously think a breeding population of massive wood apes are remaining undiscovered by science whilst tossing rocks at Bigfoot enthusiasts in regular public usage places of Salt Fork.



Have you ever considered that maybe it's not Bigfoot enthusiasts you need but rather proper therapy and counselling?



What is not my opinion are people who claim face to face encounters with Reptoids.

What makes John Cartwright's experience less fantastical than Barry King's?:

GIzRSzpydPY

More Reptoids (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96beoSorFSw&NR=1).

We can't just blow those guys off, John. There's some guy out there that will get up in front of a Ufology conference with the shakes and the wavering voice who will emotionally recount his Reptoid sighting and stun the audience with the rawness of the tale. What makes his experience less likely than yours?



It's quite simple. When you say there are those that know Bigfoot exists you are literally saying that categorically Bigfoot exists. If skeptics make definitive statements like that (Bigfoot doesn't exist), Bigfoot enthusiasts have a hissy fit. You can not show that you didn't experience a dream/hallucination/distorted memory and you have no reliable evidence to suggest otherwise. The fact that you didn't have such an experience again says nothing more than the fact that the conditions that created the situation were not again replicated. You weren't placed hungry, tired, and scared with a gun up in an effective isolation chamber in the dark of night again.



Other than to say the human mind, I have no idea. I had certainly never seen such a spider before yet there I was having sleep paralysis and vividly seeing a great big spider wrapping its many awful legs around my hand and sinking its evil fangs into the flesh between my thumb and forefinger. It's the kind of thing that when it's over and you're fully awake you just want to put it out of your head. It never happened again and doesn't make me flip out when I see a spider but I'm not in any rush to pick one up. Basically spiders are to me what bears are to Stephen Colbert.



We're done in the sense that you've made it clear you will irrationally refuse to accept any other explanation than having seen a real Bigfoot. I'm not insulting you when I say irrational but it is simply not rational to look at the circumstances of your experience and deny that it may be the very real human phenomenom of dreams/hallucinations/distorted memories.

Before I tried two separate tracks with you. One where I approached it from the angle that you did not see what you think you saw because 9 x 6 ft monster apemen do not exist in the Great Dismal Swamp and the other accepting the premise fully.

So that's the only way you will allow us to proceed; to accept your sighting based on your feelings about it and drop any explanations regarding the fallibility of human perception. So let's go that way. I gave you links about who to contact for the Great Dismal Swamp. Will you take the proactive role of contacing them and discussing the things we have talked about? Remember that the other sighting you linked (http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=6267) was not the same individual as yours but one that was taller and had a different appearance. We're talking about what would be a real species of animal and in fact the largest mammal in North America right there in North Carolina. We don't need Bigfoot enthusiasts to help us know what's really going on so are we going to do this or what? C'mon, I'll even give us a theme song...

Nq8QDbp_oiw

Do you think these guys have to worry about getting eaten by 9 x 6 ft monster apemen?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BDa16VVSx8

hjg

1935, four ligers from two litters were reared in the Zoological Gardens of Bloemfontein, South Africa. Three of them, a male and two females, were still living in 1953. The male weighed 750 lb. and stood a foot and a half taller than a full grown male lion at the shoulder.

Although ligers are more commonly found than tigons today, in At Home In The Zoo (1961), Gerald Iles wrote "For the record I must say that I have never seen a liger, a hybrid obtained by crossing a lion with a tigress. They seem to be even rarer than tigons."[2]

[Blackdog]

What i believe, is that an old ancient myth, involving presents, promoted and supported bf's existence. BTW, i just spoke to bf!

Makaya: So, bf, how r u gonna dead wit the jref on your Pregnant sun tan lotion? Sry to say, patty, but me and WP think you looked a little "Flabby" in Both pictures. Im sorry to say! Lmao
My lather is wally right.

[rockinkt]

Makaya - you were asked nicely not to quote long posts when you had nothing relevant to post.
You agreed to stop doing it.
Yet here you are again quoting long posts and adding your completely inane remarks.
I think it's about time that everyone put you on ignore.

Kit - I blame you for this monster! ;)

DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!

[kitakaze]

Makaya - you were asked nicely not to quote long posts when you had nothing relevant to post.
You agreed to stop doing it.
Yet here you are again quoting long posts and adding your completely inane remarks.
I think it's about time that everyone put you on ignore.

Kit - I blame you for this monster! ;)

DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!

Quiet dignity and grace...

mC-mO-WtVJo

Ooooh mama!

[Blackdog]

LMAO :D



Now, pull the plug. ;)

[rockinkt]

Awesome Kit! You da man!

[WGBH]

Is that it? That is all it took to get ABS members from all over the country to decide to undertake organizing an expedition in search of reliable evidence of Bigfoot there? Didn't anybody raise the obvious objection that the largest land mammal in North America probably isn't hanging about the pavilion and handicapped area of a hugely popular, not at all remote McPark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU_Ti7Nlka4) that is covered every week with Bigfoot enthusiasts and known to your Bigfoot searching group to be worked by Bigfoot hoaxers?

The park was chosen for its central location to the majority of the membership. We do not "hang around the pavilion" we hike into the woods. Not all that remote? Kit you need to do some research. First of all the town that the park is in is very very small. Just to get to the lodge of Salt Fork you drive 7 miles off the Hwy from the park entrance. Then to get to any of the picnic areas is many more miles. I would estimate by the time you get near any of the 3 main sighting areas in the park you are at least 15 miles from the nearest Hwy.Then we still hike further into the woods. Hoaxers? the only time the hoaxers are bad is during the conference. You can spot the hoaxes easily because they are close to the main trails. I will admit that the park is crowded with too many researchers now, but IT IS STILL VERY REMOTE. Hoaxing is something we need to worry about no matter where we go and the reason why researchers do not give away exact locations.

The park is a beautiful park, so is the lodge. It's not always about Bigfoot


Here's just some of the weekly Salt Fork footers:

So?


Seems pretty out there to me to seriously think a breeding population of massive wood apes are remaining undiscovered by science whilst tossing rocks at Bigfoot enthusiasts in regular public usage places of Salt Fork.

You really need to see the vastness if the park before you say things like that.

Have you ever considered that maybe it's not Bigfoot enthusiasts you need but rather proper therapy and counselling?

I have thought I need therapy or counseling yes. My friends are not a problem.


What is not my opinion are people who claim face to face encounters with Reptoids.

What makes John Cartwright's experience less fantastical than Barry King's?:

GIzRSzpydPY

More Reptoids (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96beoSorFSw&NR=1).

We can't just blow those guys off, John. There's some guy out there that will get up in front of a Ufology conference with the shakes and the wavering voice who will emotionally recount his Reptoid sighting and stun the audience with the rawness of the tale. What makes his experience less likely than yours?

Have no idea what you are talking about here with this alien stuff. I am not blowing them off, just cant comment on something I don't know.

It's quite simple. When you say there are those that know Bigfoot exists you are literally saying that categorically Bigfoot exists. If skeptics make definitive statements like that (Bigfoot doesn't exist), Bigfoot enthusiasts have a hissy fit. You can not show that you didn't experience a dream/hallucination/distorted memory and you have no reliable evidence to suggest otherwise. The fact that you didn't have such an experience again says nothing more than the fact that the conditions that created the situation were not again replicated. You weren't placed hungry, tired, and scared with a gun up in an effective isolation chamber in the dark of night again.

Skeptics DO make statement like Bigfoot does not exist, scroll up and read. It does not bother me at all if they do say it. I was not tired. Not that hungry and was not scared until the sighting. It was not pitch dark, it was DAWN. The sighting occurred in broad daylight. You are getting facts wrong now and making assumptions.

Other than to say the human mind, I have no idea. I had certainly never seen such a spider before yet there I was having sleep paralysis and vividly seeing a great big spider wrapping its many awful legs around my hand and sinking its evil fangs into the flesh between my thumb and forefinger. It's the kind of thing that when it's over and you're fully awake you just want to put it out of your head. It never happened again and doesn't make me flip out when I see a spider but I'm not in any rush to pick one up. Basically spiders are to me what bears are to Stephen Colbert.

I am not a spider fan myself.

We're done in the sense that you've made it clear you will irrationally refuse to accept any other explanation than having seen a real Bigfoot. I'm not insulting you when I say irrational but it is simply not rational to look at the circumstances of your experience and deny that it may be the very real human phenomenom of dreams/hallucinations/distorted memories.

I will listen to explanations. I am not obligated to agree.The key word above being May.

Before I tried two separate tracks with you. One where I approached it from the angle that you did not see what you think you saw because 9 x 6 ft monster apemen do not exist in the Great Dismal Swamp and the other accepting the premise fully.

So that's the only way you will allow us to proceed; to accept your sighting based on your feelings about it and drop any explanations regarding the fallibility of human perception. So let's go that way. I gave you links about who to contact for the Great Dismal Swamp. Will you take the proactive role of contacing them and discussing the things we have talked about? Remember that the other sighting you linked (http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=6267) was not the same individual as yours but one that was taller and had a different appearance. We're talking about what would be a real species of animal and in fact the largest mammal in North America right there in North Carolina. We don't need Bigfoot enthusiasts to help us know what's really going on so are we going to do this or what? C'mon, I'll even give us a theme song...

OK

Nq8QDbp_oiw

Do you think these guys have to worry about getting eaten by 9 x 6 ft monster apemen?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BDa16VVSx8

:D

[kitakaze]

Wgbh, out of any researcher, I encourage you to promote synergy!!!

hjg

1935, four ligers from two litters were reared in the Zoological Gardens of Bloemfontein, South Africa. Three of them, a male and two females, were still living in 1953. The male weighed 750 lb. and stood a foot and a half taller than a full grown male lion at the shoulder.

Although ligers are more commonly found than tigons today, in At Home In The Zoo (1961), Gerald Iles wrote "For the record I must say that I have never seen a liger, a hybrid obtained by crossing a lion with a tigress. They seem to be even rarer than tigons."[2]

I chocolate Wednesday finger manager it kiwi.

Why do you do this to me, little mak? Why must my large multi-quoted post be quoted in its entirety not once but actually twice literally directly below it with completely non sequitur and nonsensical commentary? How can that possibly be anything but clutter? I've lost count of asking you not to do that.

Ooooh mama...

[SweatyYeti]

kitakaze wrote:


WGBH wrote:

A desire to believe? What thread have you been reading? I do believe. I saw one.


It's quite simple. When you say there are those that know Bigfoot exists you are literally saying that categorically Bigfoot exists.

If skeptics make definitive statements like that (Bigfoot doesn't exist), Bigfoot enthusiasts have a hissy fit.

You can not show that you didn't experience a dream/hallucination/distorted memory and you have no reliable evidence to suggest otherwise.



Here's the beauty of that, kitty....:D......for those folks who have seen a real, live Bigfoot......they don't need to SHOW, or PROVE that they've seen one in order to say that categorically Bigfoot exists.


If someone has actually seen Bigfoot....they have proof of it's existence...and it's absolutely appropriate for them to state that Bigfoot exists.....as a proven fact, for them, even though it's not a proven fact for us.

[desertgal]

One simply considers whether the basic idea of another species of bipedal primate existing is plausible......and, is the basic idea of a guy flying around the world in one night, in a sleigh being 'driven' by magical reindeer, bringing presents to all the kids in the world plausible?

Nope, sorry, not in agreement. Yes, the basic idea of another species of bipedal primate existing is far more plausible than the concept of Santa Claus. But, that a moderate to large population of bipedal primate could exist in North America-more specifically, the lower 48 United States-for centuries without a single shred of verifiable evidence is far less plausible and defies credulity.

Good effort, though.

[desertgal]

If you are talking about me I was 17. Not that it matters.

Sorry. my mistake. :)

[tsig]

I chocolate Wednesday finger manager it kiwi.

Why do you do this to me, little mak? Why must my large multi-quoted post be quoted in its entirety not once but actually twice literally directly below it with completely non sequitur and nonsensical commentary? How can that possibly be anything but clutter? I've lost count of asking you not to do that.

Ooooh mama...

Can this really be the end

The be stuck inside of Salt Fork

With the Bigfoot blues again.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060806132208AAFqMks

[SweatyYeti]

Nope, sorry, not in agreement. Yes, the basic idea of another species of bipedal primate existing is far more plausible than the concept of Santa Claus.



Absolutely true! ;)




But, that a moderate to large population of bipedal primate could exist in North America-more specifically, the lower 48 United States-for centuries without a single shred of verifiable evidence is far less plausible and defies credulity.

Good effort, though.


Here...you're confusing the concept of 'plausibility' with the concept of 'probability'.


To be continued...:)...

[kitakaze]

The park was chosen for its central location to the majority of the membership. We do not "hang around the pavilion" we hike into the woods. Not all that remote? Kit you need to do some research. First of all the town that the park is in is very very small. Just to get to the lodge of Salt Fork you drive 7 miles off the Hwy from the park entrance. Then to get to any of the picnic areas is many more miles. I would estimate by the time you get near any of the 3 main sighting areas in the park you are at least 15 miles from the nearest Hwy.Then we still hike further into the woods. Hoaxers? the only time the hoaxers are bad is during the conference. You can spot the hoaxes easily because they are close to the main trails. I will admit that the park is crowded with too many researchers now, but IT IS STILL VERY REMOTE. Hoaxing is something we need to worry about no matter where we go and the reason why researchers do not give away exact locations.

The park is a beautiful park, so is the lodge. It's not always about Bigfoot

I guess the need for a central location for the ABS members to get together and squatch ended up hindering the groups purpose of obtaining reliable evidence and researching Bigfoot. I know that if I had a group called the American Bigfoot Society and wanted to produce evidence of Bigfoot that might have any chance of being taken seriously, I would not take my group to a heavily visited and managed recreational park that is constantly inhabited by Bigfoot enthusiasts, including those from rival associations that seek to discredit each other, as well as being the target of known Bigfoot evidence hoaxes. Hey, look! I got this footprint from the park with the hoaxers in it. Let's make a report about it. Who's with me?

I know that you guys during your expedition at Salt Fork didn't just hang around the pavilion but I also know that when members of the group smelt what they thought to be a possible Bigfoot, you were very close to the pavilion. The point being for critical thinking, you see, is that if it was in fact Bigfoot then OMG, holy crap, there's a massive wood ape that is in very close proximity to a large number of people in a part of the park with heavy public usage. Yet for some reason this animal which would be one of the largest mammals in North America that is prone to screaming, howling, emitting horrible smells, smacking tries with great big sticks, tossing great big rocks at people, and approaching dangerously close to armed humans has never been discovered by science. Even worse, park officials are apparently helpless in addressing this major hiccup with their recreational park. Yes, come; waterboard, horseback ride, play golf, and the one that the kids love - dodge Bigfoot missiles and infrasound waves.

Does this video not show at about 2:10 Don Keating right by the pavilion?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMc_hEFBwOI

John, don't take this the wrong way but by your own description above, you have a very poor and limited concept of what the word "remote" means. This is not unexpected from a person that hasn't been in the woods for 26 years since he thought he saw a Bigfoot which was his first time in the woods. You tell me I need to do some research but see, the thing is that I make it my business to research what it is that I'm saying. I think you need to look at this video of Salt Fork again:

wU_Ti7Nlka4

It's a brave new wave, you know, and it's a very simple matter for me to slap up a Google map of Salt Fork to be abe to see in hyper-detail the place that we are talking about:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=salt%20fork%20state%20park&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

I can also take the park's website and see exactly what's going on in the park:

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/tabid/785/default.aspx

I think by looking at the Google map and the map provided by the park's website (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Portals/2/parkmaps/saltforkparkmap.pdf) I can see where the handicapped area and the pavilion is. Can you confirm where it is? It should be listed here under the wheelchair access listing:

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/facilitiesmaps/access/tabid/491/Default.aspx

Calling that area as remote is like some kind of joke. Let me show you what remote is, John. Come check out Strathcona Provincial Park (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strathcona_Provincial_Park) here on Vancouver Island:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=strathcona%20provincial%20park&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

Try farting around with the zoom with that for a while. See, your neat little McPark there in Ohio with the golf course and the resort lodge is 70 km². The land Salt Fork is on was purchased in 1960 for recreational purposes and construction of recreational facilities began in 1968. It is a place deisgned for the use of humans at play and leisure. Now compare that with the the Strath's 2,458.07 km². You can fit thirty-five - that's 35 - of those Salt Fork McParks in the Strath. Check out some images from the park...

Della Falls (highest falls in Canada):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Della_Falls.jpg

Love Lake:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Strathcona_Love_Lake.jpg

Forbidden Plateau:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Forbidden_Plateau%2C_Strathcona_Provincial_Park_4. jpg

Various:

http://www3.telus.net/Mount_Arrowsmith/pictures/WinterSummitAboveForest.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1439/1372378883_d8d0cb69b5.jpg

http://www.speakwell.com/well/2004winter/media/edward3.jpg

See, dude, that is what remote looks like. Any self respecting Bigfoot that had any chance of succesfully avoiding being discovered by mankind would be hanging out there and not picking through the trash like a hobo and dicking around with sticks in the woods freaking out guys like these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpV7moUmLzg

Trust me, if there are sasquatches in this world, they are not in Salt Fork. What we do know is running around there are footers and hoaxers.

Here again is how you catch a sasquatch in Salt Fork:

2QpnrN0uBbs

So?

So? So I showed you that every week there are people poking around Salt Fork looking for Bigfoot. They've got nothing.

You really need to see the vastness if the park before you say things like that.

LOL.

Hopefully you have some new perspective on what constitutes vast.

I have thought I need therapy or counseling yes. My friends are not a problem.

If they discourage you from seeking other explanations from your sightings then no matter how well your good friends mean, they are being part of the problem. You owe it to yourself to at least try giving professional help a try. I don't think your therapist would ever tell you not to go into the woods with your friends but they would certainly try and help you re-examine your own perceptions and experiences for the better.

Have no idea what you are talking about here with this alien stuff. I am not blowing them off, just cant comment on something I don't know.

But don't you see the point I am making? You are not unique is what I am showing you. And I don't mean that in terms of Bigfoot. What my point is is that people see and experience all sorts of messed up things and it doesn't mean they are crazy whether it comes in the form of a reptoid, demon, 9 x 6 ft monster apeman or whatever. You can comment on it and to not try and see if you can connect what they have experienced from what you experienced is like giving up before you've even started to address your own demons.

Skeptics DO make statement like Bigfoot does not exist, scroll up and read. It does not bother me at all if they do say it. I was not tired. Not that hungry and was not scared until the sighting. It was not pitch dark, it was DAWN. The sighting occurred in broad daylight. You are getting facts wrong now and making assumptions.

Who stated categorically that Bigfoot doesn't exist? I did as a hypothetical but I made it clear I was doing that. I don't think I'm making assumptions here. You said that it was dark when you got into the stand and you were in an enclosed area. it would have been very easy to start to doze off. You said that you were scared to be in the woods and you were left totally alone with a gun. Nevertheless, you had at the most six hours sleep before you got into the stand and were there for hours. Your own report says you were feeling very groggy right before the sighting. That is exactly how I've felt when having sleep paralysis. I also didn't have to be in any high state of stress when it has happened.

You really need to check these out...

Sleep Paralysis With David Hufford

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDpA0MJx780

http://soulsmack.com/

Science of SP Pt 1: Don't Move!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7aAe0mqY9c

Science of SP Pt 2: Listen Up!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_7GoWKBAMs&feature=channel

Now think very carefully about the sleeping problems you've been having all this time.

I will listen to explanations. I am not obligated to agree.The key word above being May.

Sure thing and that's great. Two questions...

1) When could you realistically go and look into getting some counselling or therapy?

2) When and who will you contact regarding Great Dismal Swamp park and wildlife officials to get some information?

Let me give you some contact info:

ELIZABETH CITY STATE UNIVERSITY
Department of Geological, Environmental,
and Marine Sciences
(252) 335-3735

http://www.geocities.com/great_dismal_swamp/index.html


Great Dismal Swamp Wildlife Refuge:

Mailing Address: 3100 Desert Road, Suffolk, Virginia 23434
Phone: (757) 986-3705 Fax: (757) 986-2353

Web mail: greatdismalswamp@fws.gov

http://www.fws.gov/northeast/greatdismalswamp/

Please do this for yourself. I really want to see you be able to have some freedom back in your life.

[desertgal]

Here...you're confusing the concept of 'plausibility' with the concept of 'probability'.


No. I understand the difference quite clearly, thanks. But, since you insist, please show me the verified evidence that supports the plausibility of the many and varied anecdotes of BF's existence.

You said that a jolly red man in a suit, flying around the world in a sleight isn't plausible. You're right-but that's just details, man. For that matter, we've seen details, on this forum, of Bigfoot being an invisible creature who morphs between dimensions, creeps into people's homes so he can steal screwdrivers and eat beans from a can, practically visits Bulletmaker on a daily basis, and, in Europe, has extrasensory communication with a Swedish mental case.

In fact, while you are at it, never mind the anecdotes-please just show me the verified evidence of the existence of Bigfoot. I'll wait.

[WGBH]

I guess the need for a central location for the ABS members to get together and squatch ended up hindering the groups purpose of obtaining reliable evidence and researching Bigfoot. I know that if I had a group called the American Bigfoot Society and wanted to produce evidence of Bigfoot that might have any chance of being taken seriously, I would not take my group to a heavily visited and managed recreational park that is constantly inhabited by Bigfoot enthusiasts, including those from rival associations that seek to discredit each other, as well as being the target of known Bigfoot evidence hoaxes. Hey, look! I got this footprint from the park with the hoaxers in it. Let's make a report about it. Who's with me?

Rival association? LOL! Yeah, we do water balloon fights and panty raids during our park sleepovers.....jeez.

Everywhere we research is a known target for Bigfoot hoaxers.

The supposed print was found in a deep ravine at least a half mile from any known trail. No report will be done on it if it turns out to be from a known animal or a hoax.

I know that you guys during your expedition at Salt Fork didn't just hang around the pavilion but I also know that when members of the group smelt what they thought to be a possible Bigfoot, you were very close to the pavilion. The point being for critical thinking, you see, is that if it was in fact Bigfoot then OMG, holy crap, there's a massive wood ape that is in very close proximity to a large number of people in a part of the park with heavy public usage. Yet for some reason this animal which would be one of the largest mammals in North America that is prone to screaming, howling, emitting horrible smells, smacking tries with great big sticks, tossing great big rocks at people, and approaching dangerously close to armed humans has never been discovered by science. Even worse, park officials are apparently helpless in addressing this major hiccup with their recreational park. Yes, come; waterboard, horseback ride, play golf, and the one that the kids love - dodge Bigfoot missiles and infrasound waves.

This is nothing but a weak attempt by you to discredit the ABS, but I will play along. The park is closed to the general public at dark. Yes there are
Bigfoot researchers running around sometimes, but the Park Rangers will chase you back to the lodge or out of the park if you act stupid or they don't know you. You are acting like Salt Fork is our club house. THe ABS has had ONE outing. We are a brand new Organization. We have another outing planned this summer and it's not at Salt Fork.

Does this video not show at about 2:10 Don Keating right by the pavilion?:

No, that is a different picnic area, not the handicapped one. But that area shown has had encounters.

John, don't take this the wrong way but by your own description above, you have a very poor and limited concept of what the word "remote" means. This is not unexpected from a person that hasn't been in the woods for 26 years since he thought he saw a Bigfoot which was his first time in the woods. You tell me I need to do some research but see, the thing is that I make it my business to research what it is that I'm saying. I think you need to look at this video of Salt Fork again:

Of course its not the PNW or Vancouver Island, but VERY few places are! You are trying to paint a picture of Salt Fork not being a remote wilderness and it is.


Calling that area as remote is like some kind of joke. Let me show you what remote is, John.

See above answer.


Trust me, if there are sasquatches in this world, they are not in Salt Fork. What we do know is running around there are footers and hoaxers.

You love trolling you tube for silly video.


So? So I showed you that every week there are people poking around Salt Fork looking for Bigfoot. They've got nothing.

Uhmm.. news flash. No one has anything yet. You are redundant.


Hopefully you have some new perspective on what constitutes vast.

I know what constitutes vast. I have seen it and experienced it.



If they discourage you from seeking other explanations from your sightings then no matter how well your good friends mean, they are being part of the problem.

They don't discourage me from anything.


You owe it to yourself to at least try giving professional help a try. I don't think your therapist would ever tell you not to go into the woods with your friends but they would certainly try and help you re-examine your own perceptions and experiences for the better.

Duh



But don't you see the point I am making? You are not unique is what I am showing you. And I don't mean that in terms of Bigfoot. What my point is is that people see and experience all sorts of messed up things and it doesn't mean they are crazy whether it comes in the form of a reptoid, demon, 9 x 6 ft monster apeman or whatever. You can comment on it and to not try and see if you can connect what they have experienced from what you experienced is like giving up before you've even started to address your own demons.

I never made claims to be unique. I am addressing my demons.



Who stated categorically that Bigfoot doesn't exist? I did as a hypothetical but I made it clear I was doing that. I don't think I'm making assumptions here. You said that it was dark when you got into the stand and you were in an enclosed area. it would have been very easy to start to doze off. You said that you were scared to be in the woods and you were left totally alone with a gun. Nevertheless, you had at the most six hours sleep before you got into the stand and were there for hours. Your own report says you were feeling very groggy right before the sighting. That is exactly how I've felt when having sleep paralysis. I also didn't have to be in any high state of stress when it has happened.


Please do this for yourself. I really want to see you be able to have some freedom back in your life.

Thanks for being concerned.

[Spektator]

In a nearby county right now there have been two reports of a lion--not a puma, cougar, panther, or bobcat, but an African lion--wandering around near a highway. One witness insists that he saw it and it weighs "four or five hundred pounds." There are no reports of anyone's having lost a lion. I'll try to keep tabs on the story and see if anyone ever turns up a real lion--or if any alternate explanation comes along.

I think it's just too easy to mistake something else for a lion--or a bigfoot--for eyewitness accounts to have much weight.

Edited to add: I heard about this on the radio, but I've found a newspaper article here:http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/news/article/19840/

[GT/CS]

In a nearby county right now there have been two reports of a lion--not a puma, cougar, panther, or bobcat, but an African lion--wandering around near a highway. One witness insists that he saw it and it weighs "four or five hundred pounds." There are no reports of anyone's having lost a lion. I'll try to keep tabs on the story and see if anyone ever turns up a real lion--or if any alternate explanation comes along.

I think it's just too easy to mistake something else for a lion--or a bigfoot--for eyewitness accounts to have much weight.

Edited to add: I heard about this on the radio, but I've found a newspaper article here:http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/news/article/19840/

It was probably this.;)

[atpeace]

Actually, just to clarify my position I have no idea what he smelled and don't want to say that it might've emanated from a bear.
I just feel that a physical source of odour cannot be ruled out as less likely than a hallucinated one.

I do have to ask for some clarification from someone who knows the area in question, the swamps I've been to here in Australia all smell bloody awful for the most part does the one in question have a similar sort of odour?

As I understand it the odour that occurs in swamps can be attributed to the rotting vegetation and animals, coupled with the moistness of the area.
The rotting process can lead to build ups of noxious smelling gases, especially if trapped under the usual layer of mud that is in a swamp.

If expelled this could create a small pocket of less oxygenated air, which could potentially have a foul smell (ie swamp gas).

The lack of oxygen in the area could bring on some of the symptoms that WGBH described (ie nausea etc) and if he was feeling faint enough it's also possible that he may have started to hallucinate things.

It could also explain why the rest of the group did not smell anything by the time they got back, it had dissipated.

Note:
I'm not claiming this is what happened, nor that it's even likely just that it might be another possible explanation.

WGBH,
(if you've addressed this I missed it) Have you given any serious thought to Archangel's ideas? When you visit the swamp I sure would ask about Archangel's questions. This is an avenue that I should think you wouldn't consider insulting to you: " I am either a daydreamer,a hallucinator or a nut case, a liar, ..." Maybe you'll find someone in the know there who could corroborate what Archangel is proposing and it could clear it all up for you.
Don't just get your info from the net, talk to someone who knows the place.
Who knows what you might find out?


btw Kitakaze, I understand what you are saying about "vast" and "remote" But "McPark" is being a little rough on Salt Fork. It really is a nice place, many like it and it can feel remote for some of us when compared to the surrounding megalopolis that is ClevelandColumbusCincinnatiPittsburgh. Hey, we got what we got.:)

ap

[atpeace]

P.S. WGBH, You don't have to mention bf at all to whomever you talk to. Just describe your symptoms in the stand and mention Archangel's points. It could prove cathartic.
ap

[William Parcher]

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/b41628bd.jpg

[WGBH]

P.S. WGBH, You don't have to mention bf at all to whomever you talk to. Just describe your symptoms in the stand and mention Archangel's points. It could prove cathartic.

Right, never mention the B- word when talking to people. This I am well aware of.


btw Kitakaze, I understand what you are saying about "vast" and "remote" But "McPark" is being a little rough on Salt Fork. It really is a nice place, many like it and it can feel remote for some of us when compared to the surrounding megalopolis that is ClevelandColumbusCincinnatiPittsburgh. Hey, we got what we got.

ap

Right, its not the PNW, but it is a nice state park with TONS of wildlife.

[kitakaze]

Right, its not the PNW, but it is a nice state park with TONS of wildlife.

Yes, the Salt Fork State Park and Wildlife Area has...


Major Wildlife Game Species
Life Histories
Beaver

Bobwhite Quail

Coyote

Deer

Fox Squirrel

Gray Fox

Gray Squirrel

Grouse

Mink

Mourning Dove

Muskrat

Opossum

Pheasant

Rabbit

Raccoon

Red Fox

River Otter

Turkey

Woodchuck

Woodcock

Major Waterfowl Species Life Histories
Black Duck

Blue-winged Teal

Canada Goose

Canvasback

Green-winged Teal

Mallard

Wood Duck


Common
Non-game Birds
American Kestrel

Bald Eagle

Great Blue Heron

Northern Harrier

Osprey

Red-tailed Hawk

Turkey Vulture


Major Fish Game Species Life Histories
Black Crappie

Bluegill

Bullhead

Channel Catfish

Common Carp

Flathead Catfish

Green Sunfish

Hybrid Striped Bass

Largemouth Bass

Longear Sunfish

Muskellunge

Northern Pike

Pumpkinseed Sunfish

Rainbow Trout

Redear Sunfish

Saugeye

Smallmouth Bass

Walleye

White Bass

White Crappie

Yellow Perch

Salt Fork Wildlife Area (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/wild_resourcessubhomepage/WildlifeAreaMaps/SoutheastOhioWildlifeAreaMaps/SaltForkWildlifeArea/tabid/19828/Default.aspx)

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Portals/9/Images/hunting/Wildlife%20Area%20Maps/pub155.gif

You'll see that first link features species histories for all the game species including track images, sounds, and even some nice wild game recipes. I don't know about you but the Mommy's Rabbit Nuggets (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/WildOhioCookbook/smallgamerecipes/tabid/20469/Default.aspx#rabbit%20nuggets), Squirrel Pot Pie (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/Wildlife_Cookbooklandingpage/smallgamerecipes/tabid/20469/Default.aspx#squirrel%20pie), and Crunchy Doves (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/Wildlife_Cookbooklandingpage/smallgamerecipes/tabid/20469/Default.aspx#crunchy%20doves) look delish! :drool::forks:

What that list does not include is a species of massive 9ft bipedal wood apes. Forget the Bigfoots, where's the bears? If a population of bears with their ultra-sensitive nose, digging paws with claws, sharp teeth and hearing can not maintain some breeding numbers in the 70 km² of the park, why should I believe that a big loping wood ape can do it for at least 40 years and not make it on the game list? The park doesn't have a problem with Bigfoots, it has a problem with silly Bigfooters.

[WGBH]

.
What that list does not include is a species of massive 9ft bipedal wood apes. Forget the Bigfoots, where's the bears? If a population of bears with their ultra-sensitive nose, digging paws with claws, sharp teeth and hearing can not maintain some breeding numbers in the 70 km² of the park, why should I believe that a big loping wood ape can do it for at least 40 years and not make it on the game list? The park doesn't have a problem with Bigfoots, it has a problem with silly Bigfooters.

Actually the park pimps it Bigfoot sightings.

Silly Bigfooters rule! Skeptics drool.

PS. You did a awesome job on that list!

[mikeyx]

Yes, the Salt Fork State Park and Wildlife Area has...


Major Wildlife Game Species
Life Histories
Beaver

Bobwhite Quail

Coyote

Deer

Fox Squirrel

Gray Fox

Gray Squirrel

Grouse

Mink

Mourning Dove

Muskrat

Opossum

Pheasant

Rabbit

Raccoon

Red Fox

River Otter

Turkey

Woodchuck

Woodcock

Major Waterfowl Species Life Histories
Black Duck

Blue-winged Teal

Canada Goose

Canvasback

Green-winged Teal

Mallard

Wood Duck


Common
Non-game Birds
American Kestrel

Bald Eagle

Great Blue Heron

Northern Harrier

Osprey

Red-tailed Hawk

Turkey Vulture


Major Fish Game Species Life Histories
Black Crappie

Bluegill

Bullhead

Channel Catfish

Common Carp

Flathead Catfish

Green Sunfish

Hybrid Striped Bass

Largemouth Bass

Longear Sunfish

Muskellunge

Northern Pike

Pumpkinseed Sunfish

Rainbow Trout

Redear Sunfish

Saugeye

Smallmouth Bass

Walleye

White Bass

White Crappie

Yellow Perch

Salt Fork Wildlife Area (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/wild_resourcessubhomepage/WildlifeAreaMaps/SoutheastOhioWildlifeAreaMaps/SaltForkWildlifeArea/tabid/19828/Default.aspx)

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Portals/9/Images/hunting/Wildlife%20Area%20Maps/pub155.gif

You'll see that first link features species histories for all the game species including track images, sounds, and even some nice wild game recipes. I don't know about you but the Mommy's Rabbit Nuggets (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/WildOhioCookbook/smallgamerecipes/tabid/20469/Default.aspx#rabbit%20nuggets), Squirrel Pot Pie (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/Wildlife_Cookbooklandingpage/smallgamerecipes/tabid/20469/Default.aspx#squirrel%20pie), and Crunchy Doves (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/Wildlife_Cookbooklandingpage/smallgamerecipes/tabid/20469/Default.aspx#crunchy%20doves) look delish! :drool::forks:

What that list does not include is a species of massive 9ft bipedal wood apes. Forget the Bigfoots, where's the bears? If a population of bears with their ultra-sensitive nose, digging paws with claws, sharp teeth and hearing can not maintain some breeding numbers in the 70 km² of the park, why should I believe that a big loping wood ape can do it for at least 40 years and not make it on the game list? The park doesn't have a problem with Bigfoots, it has a problem with silly Bigfooters.

as a counter argument, a typical NW CT state forest, the stuf there; fisher cats, black bears, moose, deer, coyete, bobcat

hat is there and not generally known: mountain lion and timber wolves, bodies of later taken by the CT dep....

official records never tell the whole story, there are feral llamas as well, they escape occasionally from local farms

[kitakaze]

Actually the park pimps it Bigfoot sightings.

Silly Bigfooters rule! Skeptics drool.

Really? I'd love to hear how they do that.

PS. You did a awesome job on that list!

You just were excited about Mommy's Rabbit Nuggets.:D

[kitakaze]

as a counter argument, a typical NW CT state forest, the stuf there; fisher cats, black bears, moose, deer, coyete, bobcat

hat is there and not generally known: mountain lion and timber wolves, bodies of later taken by the CT dep....

official records never tell the whole story, there are feral llamas as well, they escape occasionally from local farms

Mike, do you mean there have been cougar and wolf bodies found by wildlife officials in CT?

I know there was a hoaxed cougar sighting.

http://connecticuthuntingtoday.com/blog/index.php/2008/03/07/connecticut-cougar-sighting-revealed-as-a-hoax/

http://berealct.wordpress.com/2008/03/08/cry-wolf-in-connecticut-lately-you-may-be-right/

[mikeyx]

Mike, do you mean there have been cougar and wolf bodies found by wildlife officials in CT?

I know there was a hoaxed cougar sighting.

http://connecticuthuntingtoday.com/blog/index.php/2008/03/07/connecticut-cougar-sighting-revealed-as-a-hoax/

http://berealct.wordpress.com/2008/03/08/cry-wolf-in-connecticut-lately-you-may-be-right/

cougars unconfirmed, wolves raiding a sheep farm, two shot, two bodies confirmed. This is information I came by unofficially, I dont if the DEP would officially admit it, I would hope so.

[atpeace]

Actually the park pimps it Bigfoot sightings.


I was told it is one of the few state parks where the rangers will talk about the bigfoot sightings there, seen by staff and visitors.

Though rare they are increasing:
In 1999, there was a sighting of a bear bounding across the Cambridge (10 miles from Salt Fork) Country Club. In the same year, a bear was killed by a vehicle on U.S. Route 52 in Scioto County.--from Wildlife Haven of Crestline Ohio.
ap

[kitakaze]

cougars unconfirmed, wolves raiding a sheep farm, two shot, two bodies confirmed. This is information I came by unofficially, I dont if the DEP would officially admit it, I would hope so.

So nothing solid regarding cougars (though there are bobcats which people could mistake for cougars). As for the wolves, how reliable is that information you have regarding the shot dead animals? If confirmed that would be an example of an extirpated species returning to an area it once inhabited. I think you might agree this is a very far cry from massive undiscovered wood apes loping about Salt Fork State Park tossing rocks over by where the pavilion is, would you not?

[RayG]

Wgbh, out of any researcher, I encourage you to promote synergy!!!

Mak, again with the quoting of huge portions of text? I suspect you're not familiar with this little gem...

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/2324a3337c76fdfd.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=16677)

It can be summed up in one word -- B r e v i t y.

RayG

[kitakaze]

1) Rival association? LOL! Yeah, we do water balloon fights and panty raids during our park sleepovers.....jeez.

2) Everywhere we research is a known target for Bigfoot hoaxers.

3) The supposed print was found in a deep ravine at least a half mile from any known trail. No report will be done on it if it turns out to be from a known animal or a hoax.

Sasquatch Watch Radio: Guests are the ABS Expedition Team (http://www.blogtalkradio.com/sasquatchwatchradio/2009/04/21/Sasquatch-Watch-Radio-Guests-are-the-ABS-Expedition-Team). ABS Salt Fork State Park Expedition - April 16th-18th, 2009 (Following time codes in pink refer to this show)

1) I don't understand your sarcasm. By your own group's admission there were other Bigfoot organizations active in the area prior to and during the time you were there (27:30). Billy Willard mentioned he believes MonsterQuest Ohio Grass Man episode has greatly increased the number of Bigfoot enthusiasts in the area and that he was amazed the number of other footers that were in the area even on a Thursday night in the park (50:00). Member Toby Tollman (http://americanbigfootsociety.weebly.com/board-of-directors.html) noted the situation was particularly bad with other Bigfoot groups in the area on Friday and Saturday. He noted that Friday night alone while gearing up in the parking lot that 4 or 5 other Bigfoot researchers had stopped there. He goes on to say that it got so bad that proper radio communication was not possible because of other Bigfoot searchers messing around on the expedition's radio channel (51:20) and that he later saw 4 flashlights in the area he was researching.

You sarcastically brush off the idea of rival Bigfoot groups and yet Toby noted how every Bigfoot searcher from another group out there had something bad to say about Don Keating of the Eastern Ohio Bigfoot Investigation Center who briefly visited your expedition and was the organizer of the Ohio Bigfoot conference happening May 1st-3rd in Salt Fork only two weeks after your expedition.

What kind of Bigfoot gong show was going on out there? You were in the handicapped picnic area which was said to have multiple encounters and said to be the place where most Bigfoot researchers go (30:20) that was chosen because Eric Altman had a sighting in area (45:07). This is the same freakout sighting that Eric Altman speaks about here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMc_hEFBwOI) where he's right in the exact area of the sighting pointing to the bush at 7:40 the Bigfoot stood behind. Earlier in response to that video you said this:

Yes they are talking to Bigfoot enthusiasts. It is a Bigfoot conference. What they are discussing had nothing to do with the ABS. The encounter they are discussing happened in October 2008 and neither of them are ABS members. The crowd is very interested because that is what they come there for, to hear Bigfoot encounter stories. As silly as that may seem to scoftics.

What you don't see is the crowd of Bigfoot researchers standing waaay in the rear with bored looks on their faces. What you do not see is that someone had placed a hoaxed Bigfoot print in a spot during the tour that it would be found. You do not see Don Keating pointing it out and pointing out why the print is fake to all of those people. When I told my encounter story I was shocked by the reaction. I always expect laughs and ridicule. What I expect is what I received in that article from New Zealand.

Do not use a Bigfoot conference as a example of what goes on in Bigfoot research. Promoting a DVD and conference and giving a crowd what they came there for is not the same thing.

You just before said the park pimps the idea they have Bigfoot sightings to you guys. Did it ever occur to you that park staff might be doing some of the hoaxing? A little funny business can go a long way amongst Bigfoot enthusiasts and they stand to greatly profit from it with the big annual conference and flood of paying footers.

2) A group of Bigfoot hoaxers was known to be active in the area. A giant stick structure was found 75 yards from the picnic area that measured 12 ft high by 18 ft across, required multiple people to create, and literally had bark squareknots used in its construction (25:50). Multiple similar structures were seen around the park 28:50. Now in 2006 one of your fellow ABS expedition members, Joedy Cook (MonsterQuest Ohio Grassman episode - from 4:20) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuOgj6Eteag), found a baboon skull in a roost area of the park where he had seen buzzards featured by MQ. The skull was perfectly clean and fleshless and identified as being a baboon by Esteban Sarmiento. How interesting. A nice perfect baboon skull left out in the open in a place where Bigfoot enthusiasts poke about. How easy to hoax is that?

3) At least half a mile from any known trail? What happened to in your group's own words at least 300 feet from the trail (16:40)? The sounds like a bit of exaggeration. The apparent track was 6 inches long (20:10) with only two clear digits and was found by Joedy Cook in a creek area after a noise was heard in that general direction. 20 feet away from where that imprint was found up on a bank Joedy Cook found what was the second imprint which in your group's words was what the group believed to be probably a knuckle print (17:40) which was said to be in very good condition with clear digits.

BTW, Melissa said that there would be a full report with pictures released to the general public (33:50). I feel confident that no such report will be released to the general public.

This is nothing but a weak attempt by you to discredit the ABS, but I will play along. The park is closed to the general public at dark. Yes there are
Bigfoot researchers running around sometimes, but the Park Rangers will chase you back to the lodge or out of the park if you act stupid or they don't know you. You are acting like Salt Fork is our club house. THe ABS has had ONE outing. We are a brand new Organization. We have another outing planned this summer and it's not at Salt Fork.


I am not seeking to discredit the ABS. I am laying out the events by your group's own words and setting them against the realities of the area. Here are the park's hours:

Q. What are the park hours?
A.
Day use areas are open from 6 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. with the exception of John Bryan, Headlands Beach, Nelson Kennedy Ledges, Crane Creek, and Hocking Hills. The hours for the parks noted are one half-hour before sunrise to one half-hour after sunset. Swimming areas are open from daylight to dusk, where swimming is available. Campgrounds are open 24 hours daily, with visiting hours from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m.


http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/parks/faq/tabid/84/Default.aspx

Billy Willard states that he had searched for Bigfoot in the park before with Eric Altman and the Pennsylvania Bigfoot Society (49:30). He also says that he ran into fellow Bigfoot enthusiasts from other groups that he had been in the field with (Blue Tracker, Phil Brocko (SP), Nancy from West Virginia who was poking about shining her flashlight on ABS people asking who they were) (51:45). The fact is that in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJQJa40-auc) from 1:30 we see Treba and Terry Jahn (they were featured witnesses in the Ohio Grassman episode seen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3e8wjgQbzk) from 7:00) along with Don Keating discussing how they are in the park every weekend till 3 or 4 am. The MQ clip says that when they had their sighting it was not until just after midnight when a ranger had come to visit them asking them when they were going to leave.

I think I've made my point overwhelmingly clear. By the facts as your own group acknowledged, SFSP was a pretty ridiculous place to have an expedition. It seems like it was a location influenced most of all by convenience.

No, that is a different picnic area, not the handicapped one. But that area shown has had encounters.

Are you sure? Because in that video it starts out with Don Keating motioning towards the nearby pavilion and later in the video Eric Altman is recounting his sighting tale and is definitely in the area where you guys were as is made clear by Billy Willard's own words speaking to Eric where he acknowledges that they went to that handicapped area due to Eric's sighting there (45:07). If you look closely it seems to be the same area as the beginning of the video and Don Keating can barely be made out standing off-frame to the side of Eric and Mike. I don't think I was mistaken.

Why don't you just use the Google map or one of the other two I posted and indicate where the handicapped picnic area you were in? You just said the ABS won't return there so it's not like it affects your report and you admit that there already is hoaxing in the area.

Here, I'll even give you a SFSP camprground map to make it even easier:

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Portals/2/parkmaps/saltforkcampmap.pdf

Of course its not the PNW or Vancouver Island, but VERY few places are! You are trying to paint a picture of Salt Fork not being a remote wilderness and it is.

Yes, VI is one of those very special places in the world. I'm not painting SFSP as something it's not. It may be Ohio's biggest park but it's still relatively quite wee. If you think it's remote, just take the google map I linked and zoom around so you can see the way the land actually looks. It may feel remote but it's not remote. Most importantly is ludicrous to think that a species of 9 ft wood ape could slink around the park and get the many thousands of calories it needs in a day without ever being discovered by science. Really, really silly.

You love trolling you tube for silly video.

Yes. Yes, I do. I love checking out silly Bigfoot enthusiast videos on youtube because they love putting them up. Youtube killed Bigfoot, don't you know? Here's some great silly video - cop talks to West Virginia footers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDIAe-VWl-0

I love that lady's voice starting at 00:50. Recognize anybody?

I never made claims to be unique. I am addressing my demons.

Thanks for being concerned.

See, Im trying to get some kind of answer from you about when you will...

a) Seek counselling.

And...

b) Get in touch with the appropriate wildlife officials to get some concrete answers.

[atpeace]

WGBH,
You said your friends spend most of their time debunking. Obviously they have debunked everything since they have not offered anything, so when do you all say when?

Why don’t researchers spend two weeks- no tents, no provisions- in the woods linked arm in arm two-by-two or three-by-three wearing three-foot hats, and see how that works and what they leave behind? I am not being a smart a**. That may prove to be an eye-opening evidential expedition. Stop trying to prove to the world bf exists. Prove it to yourselves using what you do “know” about bf.

Stop the tunnel vision and look at the really BIG picture that is bf when out in the woods or desert or neighborhood or anywhere else its been seen.

Bf does not leave any “normal” animal evidence, it leaves something “else” and we are going to find that “else”. Does that really make sense to you?

The next time you walk through the woods do so with an open mind not just of what you think is, but what quite obviously isn‘t.

ap

[kitakaze]

WGBH,
(if you've addressed this I missed it) Have you given any serious thought to Archangel's ideas? When you visit the swamp I sure would ask about Archangel's questions. This is an avenue that I should think you wouldn't consider insulting to you: " I am either a daydreamer,a hallucinator or a nut case, a liar, ..." Maybe you'll find someone in the know there who could corroborate what Archangel is proposing and it could clear it all up for you.
Don't just get your info from the net, talk to someone who knows the place.
Who knows what you might find out?

Peace, I agree that Angel's idea bears investigations as well. The nausea mentioned comes to mind first.


btw Kitakaze, I understand what you are saying about "vast" and "remote" But "McPark" is being a little rough on Salt Fork. It really is a nice place, many like it and it can feel remote for some of us when compared to the surrounding megalopolis that is ClevelandColumbusCincinnatiPittsburgh. Hey, we got what we got.:)

ap

I think going between Tokyo and Vancouver Island is about as extreme as one can get going from different ends of the spectrum. Peeing behind a bush feels remote when you live in Tokyo. I'm sure if you live in Cincinnati or there abouts and have been having one too many bouts of road rage lately, Salt Fork is a nice place to get away to if you get that urge to ventilate a coyote (http://www.dnr.ohio.gov/wildlife/dow/Photos/PhotoDetailHorizontal.aspx?id=22774&page=1&count=12&Gallery=Hunting&SubGallery=Small%20Game&pos=0), teach the kids a fun new activity for Easter (http://www.dnr.ohio.gov/wildlife/dow/Photos/PhotoDetailHorizontal.aspx?id=21873&page=2&count=12&Gallery=Hunting&SubGallery=Small%20Game&pos=20), do some 4x4in' (http://www.ohiotraveler.com/images/sp%20SALT%20FORK%20CHALET%20GOLF%20VIEW.jpg), or go be a hermit for a while (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Portals/19/jun05/images/beachlg.jpg). I just think it might be about one of the silliest places to go look for 9 ft monkey men. That's even without all the Bigfooters and hoaxers on the loose there.

But, hey... that's just me.

[atpeace]

I think going between Tokyo and Vancouver Island is about as extreme as one can get going from different ends of the spectrum. Peeing behind a bush feels remote when you live in Tokyo. I'm sure if you live in Cincinnati or there abouts and have been having one too many bouts of road rage lately, Salt Fork is a nice place to get away to if you get that urge to I just think it might be about one of the silliest places to go look for 9 ft monkey men. That's even without all the Bigfooters and hoaxers on the loose there.

But, hey... that's just me.

I was not disagreeing with you. I was just defending Salt Fork as not deserving the "McPark" moniker (at least to us city folks), that's all.
No harm no foul.
ap

[tsig]

I was told it is one of the few state parks where the rangers will talk about the bigfoot sightings there, seen by staff and visitors.

Though rare they are increasing:
In 1999, there was a sighting of a bear bounding across the Cambridge (10 miles from Salt Fork) Country Club. In the same year, a bear was killed by a vehicle on U.S. Route 52 in Scioto County.--from Wildlife Haven of Crestline Ohio.
ap

I was born and raised in Scioto County Ohio on a large farm in a very rural area near the Shawnee State Forest and do not recall any sightings. All of us boys roamed the woods both hunting and just for fun; in the winter with the snow on a favorite game was to let someone have a 10 minute head start and then track him. We never saw BF tracks.

[WGBH]

WGBH,
You said your friends spend most of their time debunking. Obviously they have debunked everything since they have not offered anything, so when do you all say when?

We are not quitters.

Why don’t researchers spend two weeks- no tents, no provisions- in the woods linked arm in arm two-by-two or three-by-three wearing three-foot hats, and see how that works and what they leave behind? I am not being a smart a**. That may prove to be an eye-opening evidential expedition. Stop trying to prove to the world bf exists. Prove it to yourselves using what you do “know” about bf.

Why does it matter to you so much what we do? I don't care what you do in your spare time.

Stop the tunnel vision and look at the really BIG picture that is bf when out in the woods or desert or neighborhood or anywhere else its been seen.

Bf does not leave any “normal” animal evidence, it leaves something “else” and we are going to find that “else”. Does that really make sense to you?

I am not into paranormal Bigfoot. :D

The next time you walk through the woods do so with an open mind not just of what you think is, but what quite obviously isn‘t.

ap


This is what I do.

[WGBH]

[

1) I don't understand your sarcasm. By your own group's admission there were other Bigfoot organizations active in the area prior to and during the time you were there (27:30). Billy Willard mentioned he believes MonsterQuest Ohio Grass Man episode has greatly increased the number of Bigfoot enthusiasts in the area and that he was amazed the number of other footers that were in the area even on a Thursday night in the park (50:00). Member Toby Tollman (http://americanbigfootsociety.weebly.com/board-of-directors.html) noted the situation was particularly bad with other Bigfoot groups in the area on Friday and Saturday. He noted that Friday night alone while gearing up in the parking lot that 4 or 5 other Bigfoot researchers had stopped there. He goes on to say that it got so bad that proper radio communication was not possible because of other Bigfoot searchers messing around on the expedition's radio channel (51:20) and that he later saw 4 flashlights in the area he was researching.

You understand my sarcasm all to well. You are a master of it. The radio problems are not bad if you just change the channel on the radio. :D The date for the ABS expedition in Mid April was set for over six months. Don Keating's conference was originally scheduled on May 16. Because they scheduled the Yakima Round-up that same day, Don unfortunately had to move his conference up to May 2. This moved the ABS expedition closer to conference time and thus is a reason for there being so many yahoos in the woods doing their pre-conference hoaxing. Also, there was a BFRO pay per camp expedition that weekend in near-by Beaver Creek. Yes it sucked that there were too many people around.

Right? It was unfortunately crowded. The thing is you are trying to make it seem like there were 100 people running around the area when there were 20.But yes even that many were too much. I am used to just going out with 2 or 3 people. What can we do? We are there we may as well try.

You sarcastically brush off the idea of rival Bigfoot groups and yet Toby noted how every Bigfoot searcher from another group out there had something bad to say about Don Keating of the Eastern Ohio Bigfoot Investigation Center who briefly visited your expedition and was the organizer of the Ohio Bigfoot conference happening May 1st-3rd in Salt Fork only two weeks after your expedition.

Right? Don is a gruff old man, lots of people don't like that. The ABS has no problem with and work with Don.

What kind of Bigfoot gong show was going on out there? You were in the handicapped picnic area which was said to have multiple encounters and said to be the place where most Bigfoot researchers go (30:20) that was chosen because Eric Altman had a sighting in area (45:07). This is the same freakout sighting that Eric Altman speaks about here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMc_hEFBwOI) where he's right in the exact area of the sighting pointing to the bush at 7:40 the Bigfoot stood behind. Earlier in response to that video you said this:

Bigfoot gong show:D...and I am the one being sarcastic? That is funny though.

We did plenty of good things that weekend. There were training seminars for the new researchers in the group. There were great hikes in a beautiful park.

Eric did not freak out, the person he was with did. Eric still does not say that he saw anything except a large shadowy figure. He does not say it was a Bigfoot

You just before said the park pimps the idea they have Bigfoot sightings to you guys. Did it ever occur to you that park staff might be doing some of the hoaxing? A little funny business can go a long way amongst Bigfoot enthusiasts and they stand to greatly profit from it with the big annual conference and flood of paying footers.

Of course they promote the conference to bring in guests.


2) A group of Bigfoot hoaxers was known to be active in the area. A giant stick structure was found 75 yards from the picnic area that measured 12 ft high by 18 ft across, required multiple people to create, and literally had bark squareknots used in its construction (25:50). Multiple similar structures were seen around the park 28:50. Now in 2006 one of your fellow ABS expedition members, Joedy Cook (MonsterQuest Ohio Grassman episode - from 4:20) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuOgj6Eteag), found a baboon skull in a roost area of the park where he had seen buzzards featured by MQ. The skull was perfectly clean and fleshless and identified as being a baboon by Esteban Sarmiento. How interesting. A nice perfect baboon skull left out in the open in a place where Bigfoot enthusiasts poke about. How easy to hoax is that?


If the park staff is doing the hoaxing what can we do about that? Hoaxing is hoaxing, it is a hurdle we always deal with no matter where you research. It is easily identified in most cases. The yahoos who fall for some of the easily spotted hoaxes deserve it. The structure was hilarious it even had square knots used to tie it together. We spent half the conference weekend explaining to casual Bigfoot enthusiasts who did not know better that it was a hoax.I remember some one mentioning it during the conference presentations to NOT present anything found that weekend as evidence.

3) At least half a mile from any known trail? What happened to in your group's own words at least 300 feet from the trail (16:40)? The sounds like a bit of exaggeration. The apparent track was 6 inches long (20:10) with only two clear digits and was found by Joedy Cook in a creek area after a noise was heard in that general direction. 20 feet away from where that imprint was found up on a bank Joedy Cook found what was the second imprint which in your group's words was what the group believed to be probably a knuckle print (17:40) which was said to be in very good condition with clear digits.

There are hiking trails, game trails and then there are marked trails that are used by the park guests. The print was found at least a half mile or even more off the marked trails used by the park guests. It was not an exaggeration. When Billy says the print was 300 feet off trail, he meant a game trail.

I was not present in the area when the tracks were found, so I can't comment on what happened. I was hiking in a different area. I arrived in the area after getting a call on my radio they were already casting them.

BTW, Melissa said that there would be a full report with pictures released to the general public (33:50). I feel confident that no such report will be released to the general public.

We shall see.

I am not seeking to discredit the ABS. I am laying out the events by your group's own words and setting them against the realities of the area. Here are the park's hours:

Yes you are seeking to discredit the ABS, stop fibbing. If you are out in that park ANYWHERE after dark the Rangers will stop you, ask you what you are doing. Sometimes they will ask you to return to the lodge, your camp site or LEAVE the park. I have gotten stopped several times when driving to a area. We tell them we are with Don and they leave us alone.



http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/parks/faq/tabid/84/Default.aspx

Billy Willard states that he had searched for Bigfoot in the park before with Eric Altman and the Pennsylvania Bigfoot Society (49:30). He also says that he ran into fellow Bigfoot enthusiasts from other groups that he had been in the field with (Blue Tracker, Phil Brocko (SP), Nancy from West Virginia who was poking about shining her flashlight on ABS people asking who they were) (51:45). The fact is that in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJQJa40-auc) from 1:30 we see Treba and Terry Jahn (they were featured witnesses in the Ohio Grassman episode seen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3e8wjgQbzk) from 7:00) along with Don Keating discussing how they are in the park every weekend till 3 or 4 am. The MQ clip says that when they had their sighting it was not until just after midnight when a ranger had come to visit them asking them when they were going to leave.

The people you mentioned came out there to say hi to all of us because they are our friends. After saying goodbye they went to another area of the park or left. Sometimes the Rangers do not see you sometimes they do. It is a large park.Terry and Treba were in the actual picnic area sitting at a bonfire when their encounter happened. A Ranger will not ask you to leave if you are just sitting around a fire and you are a frequent park visitor.

I think I've made my point overwhelmingly clear. By the facts as your own group acknowledged, SFSP was a pretty ridiculous place to have an expedition. It seems like it was a location influenced most of all by convenience.

That depends on what you expect to get from it. We got to meet friends and teach new researchers techniques and experience a great wildlife area. It is a good place to research when there are not too many people around. This is just a negative spin from a skeptic.


Are you sure? Because in that video it starts out with Don Keating motioning towards the nearby pavilion and later in the video Eric Altman is recounting his sighting tale and is definitely in the area where you guys were as is made clear by Billy Willard's own words speaking to Eric where he acknowledges that they went to that handicapped area due to Eric's sighting there (45:07). If you look closely it seems to be the same area as the beginning of the video and Don Keating can barely be made out standing off-frame to the side of Eric and Mike. I don't think I was mistaken.

Yes, I was mistaken. That is the handicapped area. I was just able to watch the video. I cannot watch you tube videos at work. I thought you were talking about the video with Don standing on the picnic table.

The one where he is standing on the picnic table is the area where Terry and Treba had their encounter.

Why don't you just use the Google map or one of the other two I posted and indicate where the handicapped picnic area you were in? You just said the ABS won't return there so it's not like it affects your report and you admit that there already is hoaxing in the area.

You will need to get someone more experienced at map reading to point out the area to you. I can only get there myself by driving. Remember I am inexperienced in the woods


Here, I'll even give you a SFSP camprground map to make it even easier:

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Portals/2/parkmaps/saltforkcampmap.pdf



Yes, VI is one of those very special places in the world. I'm not painting SFSP as something it's not. It may be Ohio's biggest park but it's still relatively quite wee. If you think it's remote, just take the google map I linked and zoom around so you can see the way the land actually looks. It may feel remote but it's not remote. Most importantly is ludicrous to think that a species of 9 ft wood ape could slink around the park and get the many thousands of calories it needs in a day without ever being discovered by science. Really, really silly.

That is just your opinion.



Yes. Yes, I do. I love checking out silly Bigfoot enthusiast videos on youtube because they love putting them up. Youtube killed Bigfoot, don't you know? Here's some great silly video - cop talks to West Virginia footers:

Yes I can see that you love watching silly you tube Bigfoot videos. I don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDIAe-VWl-0

I love that lady's voice starting at 00:50. Recognize anybody?



See, Im trying to get some kind of answer from you about when you will...

a) Seek counselling.

And...

b) Get in touch with the appropriate wildlife officials to get some concrete answers.

When and if I seek counseling is my private business. I will let you know of course. If you mean when I will talk to Dismal Swamp officials, whenever I get the chance.

[atpeace]

I was born and raised in Scioto County Ohio on a large farm in a very rural area near the Shawnee State Forest and do not recall any sightings. All of us boys roamed the woods both hunting and just for fun; in the winter with the snow on a favorite game was to let someone have a 10 minute head start and then track him. We never saw BF tracks.

In no way was I relating bear sightings to bf sightings. I was just commenting on Kitakaze's question "Where are bears?" My family has spent upteen thousand hours in Washington county woods and no bf there either. Or bear.
I like to hear about species returning to areas and I know many interested in "bf like" stuff do to.



WGBH,
I have an acerbic tone, I admit. (three strokes has interfered with my brains
checks and balances, so to speak, among other things). I apologize. But what I have said I stand behind.

What about Archangels proposal?

ap

[mikeyx]

So nothing solid regarding cougars (though there are bobcats which people could mistake for cougars). As for the wolves, how reliable is that information you have regarding the shot dead animals? If confirmed that would be an example of an extirpated species returning to an area it once inhabited. I think you might agree this is a very far cry from massive undiscovered wood apes loping about Salt Fork State Park tossing rocks over by where the pavilion is, would you not?

wolves bodies are i dep hands, guess that depends how paranoid you are

[WGBH]

In no way was I relating bear sightings to bf sightings. I was just commenting on Kitakaze's question "Where are bears?" My family has spent upteen thousand hours in Washington county woods and no bf there either. Or bear.
I like to hear about species returning to areas and I know many interested in "bf like" stuff do to.

I have heard the same from many friends who live there in Ohio. There are not that many bear sightings. We see lots of bear here in VA and in NC. When I went to PA we saw bears everywhere.

WGBH,
I have an acerbic tone, I admit. (three strokes has interfered with my brains
checks and balances, so to speak, among other things). I apologize. But what I have said I stand behind.

No worries and no need to apologize.

What about Archangels proposal?

ap


What was archangels proposal? I guess I need to scroll up and read it. Edit: I scrolled up about 4 pages and could not find it.

[kitakaze]

What was archangels proposal? I guess I need to scroll up and read it. Edit: I scrolled up about 4 pages and could not find it.

It was shown on the page just before this one. Here it is again:

Actually, just to clarify my position I have no idea what he smelled and don't want to say that it might've emanated from a bear.
I just feel that a physical source of odour cannot be ruled out as less likely than a hallucinated one.

I do have to ask for some clarification from someone who knows the area in question, the swamps I've been to here in Australia all smell bloody awful for the most part does the one in question have a similar sort of odour?

As I understand it the odour that occurs in swamps can be attributed to the rotting vegetation and animals, coupled with the moistness of the area.
The rotting process can lead to build ups of noxious smelling gases, especially if trapped under the usual layer of mud that is in a swamp.

If expelled this could create a small pocket of less oxygenated air, which could potentially have a foul smell (ie swamp gas).

The lack of oxygen in the area could bring on some of the symptoms that WGBH described (ie nausea etc) and if he was feeling faint enough it's also possible that he may have started to hallucinate things.

It could also explain why the rest of the group did not smell anything by the time they got back, it had dissipated.

Note:
I'm not claiming this is what happened, nor that it's even likely just that it might be another possible explanation.

[WGBH]

It was shown on the page just before this one. Here it is again:

Ah, I missed that, I must have been hallucinating. :D Thanks for that Kit.

We were not in the swamp proper but the property was near the border. Nevertheless, The smell did have a bit of that swampy methane odor mixed in with the wet dog,rotting flesh smell.

Did I smell swamp gas and hallucinate? I would answer that the same way I have the other theory's submitted. Anything is possible, but I find it unlikely. I will admit that it is more likely then a sleep or brain disorder. I guess this is another thing I ask the park officials if I can ever get down there. We are getting swamped (pun intended) at work and it is hard for me to get away.

[kitakaze]

Ah, I missed that, I must have been hallucinating. :D Thanks for that Kit.

We were not in the swamp proper but the property was near the border. Nevertheless, The smell did have a bit of that swampy methane odor mixed in with the wet dog,rotting flesh smell.

IOW, swamp gas smell. Please understand that a species of animal that often reeks to high heaven in a place like the eastern U.S. is an animal found.

Did I smell swamp gas and hallucinate? I would answer that the same way I have the other theory's submitted. Anything is possible, but I find it unlikely.

I fell down.

:faint:

OK, wait... yep, I'm up again.

Things which are known and studied scientific phenomenoms, gas emissions from rotting vegetation in swamps and hallucinations associated with lack of oyxgen intake, are unlikely but a *9* *x* *6* *ft*, larger than a grizzly bear, upright, bipedal, gamma radiation-proportioned, member of a monster apeman species heretofore undiscovered by science living amongst two of the most industrialized nations on Earth on the Eastern Seaboard of the United States of America escapes this transient classification by you as "unlikely"??

Oops, down again.

:faint:

I will admit that it is more likely then a sleep or brain disorder.

Sleep paralysis can happen to any completely healthy, normal, sane individual. I don't think it's a disorder of any kind just by itself. It can be associated with sleeping disorders but by itself is a common condition:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/cgi/mesh/2007/MB_cgi?field=uid&term=D020188

I guess this is another thing I ask the park officials if I can ever get down there. We are getting swamped (pun intended) at work and it is hard for me to get away.

Let your fingers do the walking:

Let me give you some contact info:

ELIZABETH CITY STATE UNIVERSITY
Department of Geological, Environmental,
and Marine Sciences
(252) 335-3735

http://www.geocities.com/great_dismal_swamp/index.html


Great Dismal Swamp Wildlife Refuge:

Mailing Address: 3100 Desert Road, Suffolk, Virginia 23434
Phone: (757) 986-3705 Fax: (757) 986-2353

Web mail: greatdismalswamp@fws.gov

http://www.fws.gov/northeast/greatdismalswamp/

Please do this for yourself. I really want to see you be able to have some freedom back in your life.

[WGBH]

Dude, that was hilarious!

[kitakaze]

Dude, that was hilarious!

Poignant-irony-makes-me-reconsider-my-perceptions hilarious or quirky-throwaway-Seinfeld-style-observational-humour hilarious? I was shooting for the former.

[atpeace]

Hey WGBH, good luck with it all. I mean that.
Gotta adios. It's summer and the last place I wanna be is behind the boob tubes aristocratic cousin.
ap

[kitakaze]

You love trolling you tube for silly video.
Yes. Yes, I do. I love checking out silly Bigfoot enthusiast videos on youtube because they love putting them up. Youtube killed Bigfoot, don't you know? Here's some great silly video - cop talks to West Virginia footers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDIAe-VWl-0

I love that lady's voice starting at 00:50. Recognize anybody?

Hey, John, remember Nancy from West Virginia?:

Billy Willard states that he had searched for Bigfoot in the park before with Eric Altman and the Pennsylvania Bigfoot Society (49:30). He also says that he ran into fellow Bigfoot enthusiasts from other groups that he had been in the field with (Blue Tracker, Phil Brocko (SP), Nancy from West Virginia who was poking about shining her flashlight on ABS people asking who they were) (51:45).

Look who I found!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoZW6x-x9Ro

It's Nancy!

Little teepee nest? Rectangular territorial markers with little mini stick formation garnish? Bigfoot arches? Remarkable, incredible finds?

:dl:

OMG, that is too funny! It's like Bigfoot has time enough in between scrounging the 12,000+ calories it needs everyday and eluding teh huamns to engage in creating freestyle post-modern interpretive art structures all about the woods. What the heck is the matter with these people? It's like the reams of camouflage has affected their minds and reduced them to dolts. They are literally stumbling about the woods screaming and hollering at everything they find with 6 year old child logic thinking it's Bigfoot...

WOW! Look at this arch! That is huUU~uge! Look! Another X! And right over here... Check it out! My head fell right out of my butt!

*facepalm*

Wow. It's a good thing she just visited the ABS expedition while it was happening and wasn't actually part of it...

Nancy? Nancy... Put the stick down, Nancy. No, Nancy. The stick is not a Bigfoot hairbrush. Please leave the stick alone and stop shouting, Nancy. You'll scare the Bigfoots away.

She isn't like one of those super teh-good-Lord-Jesus Bigfooters, is she?

Oh, wait. Yahtzee...

My husband Bernie and I are the Snodsquatch Research Team of the Upper Ohio Valley. We had our first accual sighting on Febuary 9, 2009. We send approximately 36 hours a week in the feild research. We have become freinds with some many great people who share the same interest and are determand to find out the truth about these very real creatures. Hopefully, by the grace of God. we will be able to prove that they are a living being and placed on the endangered species list. Thanks to the firstbillyjack who brought his courage for us to not be affraid to go out there and look. Also, we would like to thank Don Keating for all his help and understanding with our research. Good luck to ALL of our fellow researchers and never give up. KEEP ON SQUATCHEN !!!

Hallyberry, Praze Teh Lord!

http://www.youtube.com/user/nancy1wv

That's nice they want Bigfoot on the endangered species list. Yeah, you know. That thing they keep seeing in Ohio, Virginia, North Carolina, and the rest of the continent. The absolute cherry on top, though, is that they thank thefirstbillyjack for teaching them not to be afraid of looking in the woods for Bigfoot! That is the one and very same thefirstbillyjack (http://www.youtube.com/user/thefirstbillyjack) who posted the video of the porcupine in the tree that he proceeded to flee from in terror, believing it to be a baby Bigfoot and also has literally 300 squatching videos on youtube. Questioning his competence made Melissa have a fit and suspend me at the SFB.

Anyhow, nice video of a pretty waterfall on her youtube user page there.

"Rumour has it that they do Satanic rituals here on Halloween":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_38yeoENok&feature=channel_page

"At least somebody had the good sense to put "god" on the tree" (nature's much prettier when you paint it).

I wonder if the Satanic ritual dudes ever run into Bigfoot when they're out there conjerin' Teh Devul. I suppose they might think it was Beelzebub himself.:D

[WGBH]

Kit,

Oh Boy the stories I could tell you about Nancy....

Here's one,

Nancy had this one video she posted on you tube that has a supposed "Bigfoot call" at Salt Fork. That it was the same weekend as the ABS expedition and the call she says are Bigfoot are Joedy Cook. He is a researcher from Ohio and a fellow ABS member. We were out hiking and goofing around that day in the park and Joedy was demonstrating his calls for us. I almost spit my water on my computer when I played it I was laughing so hard.

Nancy is a nice lady, bless her heart, but she sees Bigfoot behind every tree. She also circles them in red. :D

That poor guy the real billy jack, I feel sorry for him. He gets out there in the woods alone and gets really scared. I can hear it in his voice on those videos. It scares me that he goes out there alone. He actually fell waist deep in a frozen pond and almost died from exposure last winter.

[ElectricVoodoo]

WGBH,
I have an acerbic tone, I admit. (three strokes has interfered with my brains
checks and balances, so to speak, among other things). I apologize. But what I have said I stand behind.

What about Archangels proposal?

ap

three strokes has interfered with my brains checks and balances, so to speak, among other things

ap,
I don't mean to change the subject, but as a physician this is rather alarming. I hope you are under the care of the competent doctor lest you get a fourth and possibly fatal stroke. We are a resilient species, but preventing any further trauma to your body would be a wise course of action. There are certain things you can do as well as certain things you can abstain from doing which will benefit you.
Apologies for getting off topic, but it has been my job for over a quarter of a century to care about medical problems.

[makaya325]

Sorry for the other night, people. It was a bad scene i had experienced.

[desertgal]

Sorry for the other night, people. It was a bad scene i had experienced.

No offense, Mak, but drinking and posting don't mix.

[kitakaze]

Sorry for the other night, people. It was a bad scene i had experienced.

I bet I know what scene you were in...

let me explain- after a couple 6 packs of koff beer, lol, I might have exxagerated the et life possibility. When sober and clear, i full believe that alien life (microbes) definitely exist elsewhere, in the form of contaminance and of other-wordly evolution. When it comes to complex life, i then put on my debunker cap.

You were in the Wild Indian (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BEBgvzJvSE) again, weren't you?

This is where you should post when you've been into grampa's cough syrup again:

http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=28

[kitakaze]

Kit,

Oh Boy the stories I could tell you about Nancy....

Here's one,

Nancy had this one video she posted on you tube that has a supposed "Bigfoot call" at Salt Fork. That it was the same weekend as the ABS expedition and the call she says are Bigfoot are Joedy Cook. He is a researcher from Ohio and a fellow ABS member. We were out hiking and goofing around that day in the park and Joedy was demonstrating his calls for us. I almost spit my water on my computer when I played it I was laughing so hard.

Nancy is a nice lady, bless her heart, but she sees Bigfoot behind every tree. She also circles them in red. :D

Nancy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l1p6h1o6Kk) seems like a sweet lady. Hopefully somebody helps her to be less inept at critical thinking.

All I can think about when I see this video is what would happen if a real live Bigfoot were to just walking out of that hole and fling some poo at her:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUp8QtHRKrA&feature=related

We can't be to hard on Nancy, though, because she's helped both you, me, and all the ABS. My youtube silly footer video interest has payed off big-time. Remember the smell that initiated the events on the Saturday of your expedition that culminated in thinking you guys had a possible encounter?

Everyone, take a deep breath here. Kitakaze is not planning on "bashing" those of us involved in the expedition. He will ask questions and give his opinions. Speaking for myself only, he is welcome to ask me questions about anything I am permitted to discuss pending BOD approval. I also am not frightened to listen to his opinions.

I can understand why he would think Don was involved. He knows that Salt Fork is Don's territory. Also, I need to make a correction about the length if time Don was there Thursday. Don was in the woods with Billy, Joedy and Myself for about 1 1/2 hours before we brought him over to the picnic area to say hi to the rest of the group. KK may also have misunderstood the familiar, playful banter on the radio between friends like Billy and Don.

I also know that KK is aware that myself and Billy are from Virginia. I am fairly sure it says it on my Avatar and Signature. LOL

I do want to mention that KK did not mention the Saturday happenings of the sounds of something charging right at Billy and Myself. And More importantly the odor that we all experienced. But he may have been getting around to it.

Edited typo

http://searchforbigfoot.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=1297&view=findpost&p=13065

I was going to discuss further details such as smells later. It was the smell of something like urine after the group had regrouped that you noticed (?) that got people going towards the direction where the possible encounter happened. That's just going from memory so I could be wrong. The sounds you mention are also in my notes but my first big post was getting monster so I had to break it off.


http://searchforbigfoot.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=1297&view=findpost&p=13070

Billy and I first smelled the odor as we were climbing out of the ravine towards to pavilion. Billy went to meet with the others. I was angry and continued to walk around the perimeter of the wood line. I was not ready to give up and pack it in for the night. I had a gut feeling that whatever it was Billy and I heard and smelled was still around the area. As I was walking near the area Billy and I had just climbed out of, the smell hit me again. I yelled to everyone to get over there. That was when others also smelled the odor and some went back down into the ravine.

Yes it smelled like urine, but really strong like ammonia. It almost burns your sinuses. Very strong. But this is just my opinion. Others may feel different. I am not making claims that what I heard or smelled was a Bigfoot. But it was something.

http://searchforbigfoot.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=1297&view=findpost&p=13072

What struck me was the breeze was blowing uphill from the ravine into our faces, so whatever the smell was, it was coming from out of the ravine.

http://searchforbigfoot.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=1297&view=findpost&p=13074

Yeah, I remember about you being choked with not having more occur as well as the burning sensation mentioned. Melissa mentioned it as well, IIRC. WHat else do you think might have been responsible for the smell. Were you in the proximity of anything you can think of that might emit any type of strong smell. For example, skunk cabbage. Or what about the pavilion? Anything there that might do it? A burning ammonia smell from a primate would be highly bizarre.

http://searchforbigfoot.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=1297&view=findpost&p=13077

QUOTE (kitakaze @ Apr 30 2009, 11:04 PM)
Is it possible something could have been dumped or left there?


Its possible, although I don't know why anyone would do that. I never got the idea of something being dumped. What I smelled had a more musty odor to it , the first thing I thought of was a wet animal smell, but thats just what I smelled.

http://searchforbigfoot.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=1297&view=findpost&p=13082

Musty like in a stale way? I hear musty and I think of like a moldy bacterial-type odour. The ammonia thing is a very chemical smell. You guys mentioned the pavilion. What smells might have come from there? Did you find that it had such a strong odour has to cause a burning sensation as was mentioned by Melissa and John?

http://searchforbigfoot.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=1297&view=findpost&p=13087

Musty as in wet animal, like I said, that's what I first thought of. I was at the pavilion all night, along with others, and I never smelled anything from there. What I smelled was not extremely strong, to me anyway. So that would be a no with the burning sensation.

http://searchforbigfoot.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=1297&view=findpost&p=13102

What I smelled, was the smell of urine. When I first smelled it, it was as if I had walked into a wall of it. The smell was rancid, as if someone had set urine in the sun for a couple days.

Yes, I did say this smell caused a "burning sensation" in my sinuses. I am thinking that would be because I have bad allergies, and very sensitive sinuses (campfires have given me sinus infections) This would be the first time I ever smelled something like this in the field.

Like you Kit, I brought up the idea of the smell coming from the Pavillion, but this was checked out and believe it or not, the Pavillion area of this park is kept in very good condition. No one complained of any "urine smell" earlier or any other time while at this handicapped parking area. In fact, we had our BBQ at this Pavillion earlier in the day (while it was still warmer out) and no one said a word about odd smells, or complained about the smell of urine.

Wammy is correct when he said the wind was coming up from the ravine, so the wind would have taken the smell away from where I was, had it been coming from the Pavillion. In fact, I didnt catch the smell until walking past the pavillion, then just before the woodline, it was gone (thankfully).


This issue is still under investigation. Members of the ABS want solid answers too, regardless of what the answer might be.

http://searchforbigfoot.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=1297&view=findpost&p=13107

Well, for you and the rest of the ABS you can thank Nancy from West Virginia via kitakaze for solving the mystery for you. Drum roll, please...

TADAAA!

sN9Do7_cLYA

Isn't that awesome? Thanks, Nancy! You showed me the handicapped picnic area and solved the mystery of the ABS' mysterious pee pee smell.

I'm just going to go ahead and start my timer to see how long that thread will remain up before Melissa hides it from public view.;)

Wow. What would be crazy is if someone tried to discount that obvious busting of the possible Bigfoot stink attack by claiming it was something else. Yes, it smelled like urine but there was something else. The Bigfoot smell and the pee pee smell were just happening at the same time.:boggled:

And Melissa says skeptics never do anything positive. I found the answer to your mystery stink! Hi five, Mel? No? Didn't think so. I think it delicious that it was me of all people that found it. She's just going to hate that. Hee hee... :D

Looking at that handicapped picnic area the idea of it being remote or that there could be undiscovered massive wood apes sneaking about around there makes it very hard not to burst out laughing. I realize it's different for you with so little experience in the woods and no one can criticize you for that, but if was on that trip like that and we arrived there and somebody said that was where we were doing our expedition, I'd ask them what was wrong with their head. The only reason people think there might be a Bigfoot in Salt Fork State Park is because you have inept people like Don Keating promoting and perpetuating the idea. I know you will disagree with me that Don Keating is inept so I'll just ask you to watch this video of him being taken by Nancy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_XK-XTSbHE&feature=channel_page

Keating thinks he's found dermals in that alleged Bigfoot track there. Dude. Dermals...

*facepalm*

Oh Sweet Zombie Jesus. Look at the ground there. It's fall-down stupid. That is the epitome of footer too far gone. Ay ay ay. We need to pull this bad boy out...

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/cpttripps/thestupiditburns.jpg

Poor Nancy. She's giddy with joy in that video.

That poor guy the real billy jack, I feel sorry for him. He gets out there in the woods alone and gets really scared. I can hear it in his voice on those videos. It scares me that he goes out there alone. He actually fell waist deep in a frozen pond and almost died from exposure last winter.

Check out this video of thefirstbillyjack...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qqadqdcbh8&feature=channel_page

I hope he knows how to use that knife. The funny thing about this video is that he's talking about how he had just recently had a sighting. The man has as of today 304 videos on youtube and all these claimed sightings yet he can't seem to get one on camera. You know when he's not looking for Bigfoot he looking for Dogman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ryekmN-_zI&feature=channel

Very, very silly.

[WGBH]

[QUOTE=kitakaze;4816679]

We can't be to hard on Nancy, though, because she's helped both you, me, and all the ABS. My youtube silly footer video interest has payed off big-time. Remember the smell that initiated the events on the Saturday of your expedition that culminated in thinking you guys had a possible encounter?

Kit, I am at work and I cannot view you tube videos. I would hope that you are not subscribing to Nancy's theory that the smell that we encountered was caused by the restrooms. If so, Let me pause here and get my breath back from laughing.

...OK, I can breath now.

First of all, the area that Nancy was showing in that video is on the complete opposite side of the picnic area from the ravine in question. If you look at the bottom of the comments from that video you will see me arguing that fact with her.

Also, those restrooms are kept locked most of the time, especially at night. This helps to keep the animals out. But, because you seem to think this is a major metropolitan area and not a wilderness area you would not have come to that conclusion.

Also,Billy Willard (who does enviromental inspections of ground water, fuel tanks and septic systems for his profession) and myself went back to the site 2 weeks after the event and used his professional equipment to test that theory and see if a septic leak or drainage problem was the cause. It was not.

You see Kit, although your crtitcal thinking is good you just do not give us the credit of being a step ahead of you and being critical of ourselves.

A more critical thinker would have come to the conclusion that the urine smell was from a known animal such as a fox or a coyote. Even inexperienced woodsman like myself thought of that.

That restroom theory was thought of and tested. NEXT??


Well, for you and the rest of the ABS you can thank Nancy from West Virginia via kitakaze for solving the mystery for you. Drum roll, please...

Yeah, uh-huh. You and Nancy make quite the team and are made for each other.


Isn't that awesome? Thanks, Nancy! You showed me the handicapped picnic area and solved the mystery of the ABS' mysterious pee pee smell.

When will you start making your debut in her silly videos?


I'm just going to go ahead and start my timer to see how long that thread will remain up before Melissa hides it from public view.;)

I don't think anyone really cares except you.

Wow. What would be crazy is if someone tried to discount that obvious busting of the possible Bigfoot stink attack by claiming it was something else. Yes, it smelled like urine but there was something else. The Bigfoot smell and the pee pee smell were just happening at the same time.:boggled:

It is never crazy to look for alternative answers. It's just where you look and who you look with. But I am glad you found your research partner in Nancy.

And Melissa says skeptics never do anything positive. I found the answer to your mystery stink! Hi five, Mel? No? Didn't think so. I think it delicious that it was me of all people that found it. She's just going to hate that. Hee hee... :D

You found nothing. You took the educated guess that we all did and we investigated that option.

Looking at that handicapped picnic area the idea of it being remote or that there could be undiscovered massive wood apes sneaking about around there makes it very hard not to burst out laughing. I realize it's different for you with so little experience in the woods and no one can criticize you for that.

[B]You just did critcize me for that.B]

You have no idea. Just because there is a restroom you think it is not a wild area.

[Drewbot]

You have no idea. Just because there is a restroom you think it is not a wild area.[/B]

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=salt%20fork%2C%20oh&rlz=1W1GDNA_en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

Please show the location on the map. Honestly it doesn't look all that wild.

It kind of looks Ohio-ey.

[WGBH]

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=salt%20fork%2C%20oh&rlz=1W1GDNA_en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

Please show the location on the map. Honestly it doesn't look all that wild.

It kind of looks Ohio-ey.

Location of what? The handicapped picnic area? If I had a location of the Salt Fork Lodge, I may be able to figure out the area where that is, by using the roads as a guide. The nearest town is 20 miles away and that town is small. The area outside the park is very rural an mostly Ammish folk. Even the Highway leading to the park is one lane each way. If you are in the handicapped picnic area you are 15 miles from any Hwy. No, it is not the PNW, but it is not Tokyo either. It is 7 miles from the park gate to the Lodge.

[kitakaze]

John, you should really have a look at the video I posted. We're not looking at any restroom theory. Not having seen the video and talking about restrooms is going to seem silly when you can see the video. Just check it out tonight and then you'll be like "Right. OK. We're not talking about restrooms at all." When you see the video just pause it at 00:20 and just kind of stare at the screen. The entire idea of Bigfoot putting the stink on you guys with the pee pee smell is going to seems very, very silly after you do that. Unfortunately, just in this case it seems Nancy "look, another X!" from West Virginia has a leg up on the American Bigfoot Society when it comes to investigative abilities.

Ouch.:o

[Drewbot]

Location of what? The handicapped picnic area? If I had a location of the Salt Fork Lodge, I may be able to figure out the area where that is, by using the roads as a guide. The nearest town is 20 miles away and that town is small. The area outside the park is very rural an mostly Ammish folk. Even the Highway leading to the park is one lane each way. If you are in the handicapped picnic area you are 15 miles from any Hwy. No, it is not the PNW, but it is not Tokyo either. It is 7 miles from the park gate to the Lodge.

Here is a satellite image of the S.F. Lodge. S.F. Lodge is less than 2 miles from INTERSTATE 77.

http://maps.google.com/maps?sourceid=navclient&q=salt+fork+lodge,+ohio&ie=UTF8&hl=en&ll=40.111689,-81.528168&spn=0.047525,0.095787&t=h&z=13


John, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but who told you the lodge was 20miles away from the nearest town?

ODELL, OH is 5.8 miles away

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=odell,+oh&daddr=salt+fork+lodge,+oh&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&sll=40.129515,-81.50205&sspn=0.047513,0.095787&ie=UTF8&ll=40.13256,-81.495209&spn=0.095021,0.191574&t=h&z=12

CAMBRIDGE, OH is 15.8 miles away

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=cambridge,+oh&daddr=salt+fork+lodge,+oh&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&sll=40.025774,-81.590052&sspn=0.023793,0.047894&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=12


WEBSITE SHOWING MORE SALT FORK BIGFOOT BUSINESS
http://www.angelfire.com/oh/ohiobigfoot/sfsp.html

FROM the location of the sighting on the website above- Cambridge Ohio is only 6.5Miles from the sighting. Cambridge OH is a town of approx. 13000 people.
http://maps.google.com/maps?daddr=Jefferson,+OH+(Salt+fork+sighting)&geocode=CciGrTf6o8ZuFQODYwId3UUk-yHoszQLzax8jQ&dirflg=&saddr=cambridge,+oh&f=d&hl=en&dq=Salt+fork+sighting&sll=40.076035,-81.508899&sspn=0.006295,0.006295&cid=10195213653116236776&ie=UTF8&z=12

[WGBH]

[QUOTE=Drewbot;4817350]Here is a satellite image of the S.F. Lodge. S.F. Lodge is less than 2 miles from INTERSTATE 77.

As the crow flies I guess.I cant see through trees. As I told you you have to drive 7 miles from the lodge to the park entrance. I have noted this on the odometer. You cannot drive through the woods Drew.

http://maps.google.com/maps?sourceid=navclient&q=salt+fork+lodge,+ohio&ie=UTF8&hl=en&ll=40.111689,-81.528168&spn=0.047525,0.095787&t=h&z=13


John, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but who told you the lodge was 20miles away from the nearest town?

ODELL, OH is 5.8 miles away

I was talking about Cambridge. which is 15 as you said below. Odell is probably more of a cluster of Ammish houses, but you can call it a town if you want.

You also need to understand how Hilly and windy these roads are it takes time to drive them.



http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=odell,+oh&daddr=salt+fork+lodge,+oh&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&sll=40.129515,-81.50205&sspn=0.047513,0.095787&ie=UTF8&ll=40.13256,-81.495209&spn=0.095021,0.191574&t=h&z=12

CAMBRIDGE, OH is 15.8 miles away

I was talking about Cambrindge ok so its 15 and not 20.


WEBSITE SHOWING MORE SALT FORK BIGFOOT BUSINESS
http://www.angelfire.com/oh/ohiobigfoot/sfsp.html

FROM the location of the sighting on the website above- Cambridge Ohio is only 6.5Miles from the sighting. Cambridge OH is a town of approx. 13000 people.

What sighting are you talking about? and Again 6.5 miles as the crow flies, not by road.


What is the point of this anyway? If you guys are so sure the park is not remote. Let me drive you to the Picnic area and drop you off.

[JohnWS]

Found this on StateParks.com (http://www.stateparks.com/salt_fork.html)

Before settlement, Ohio lay in the heart of a vast forest wilderness stretching from the Appalachian Mountains to the Great Plains.

By 1900, most of Ohio's original forest was decimated. In its place stood wheat, corn, oats, hay and thriving cities.

Through conservation efforts over the past few decades, a magnificent regrowth has occurred. Today, nearly 30 percent of the state is once again supporting a thriving forest. This is most evident in the rugged, unglaciated hill region of southeastern Ohio including Salt Fork State Park.My bold

So - where did those giant creatures go when the habitat was decimated? They must have been lurking close by to come back so quickly.

[Drewbot]

So - where did those giant creatures go when the habitat was decimated? They must have been lurking close by to come back so quickly.


JohnWS,

I wonder... The Mountain Lion was also decimated from Ohio, and it hasn't officially returned. One reason these western creatures don't make it back to the east, is a little thing called the MISSISSIPPI River. Another would be highways. The eastern half of the country is far more populated by roads, than the vast areas of the West.

[tsig]

John, you should really have a look at the video I posted. We're not looking at any restroom theory. Not having seen the video and talking about restrooms is going to seem silly when you can see the video. Just check it out tonight and then you'll be like "Right. OK. We're not talking about restrooms at all." When you see the video just pause it at 00:20 and just kind of stare at the screen. The entire idea of Bigfoot putting the stink on you guys with the pee pee smell is going to seems very, very silly after you do that. Unfortunately, just in this case it seems Nancy "look, another X!" from West Virginia has a leg up on the American Bigfoot Society when it comes to investigative abilities.

Ouch.:o

The whole idea that a state park could harbor BF's is beyond stupid.

I grew up in southern Ohio and for five years lived near Chillicothe. My back property line abutted the line for the Scioto Trail State Forest, a very wild piece of ground.

Our neighbor across the road had live all his life (65 years) there and daily roamed the woods.

I never had a BF visit and my neighbor never mentioned seeing one.

If there had been any BF's the fox hunters would have shot them or got drunk with them.

Between the fox, turkey, squirrel,deer, and rabbit hunters the woods are seldom silent.

[makaya325]

No offense, Mak, but drinking and posting don't mix.

I know. I acted like a complete moron a couple days back.

[WGBH]

John, you should really have a look at the video I posted. We're not looking at any restroom theory. Not having seen the video and talking about restrooms is going to seem silly when you can see the video. Just check it out tonight and then you'll be like "Right. OK. We're not talking about restrooms at all." When you see the video just pause it at 00:20 and just kind of stare at the screen. The entire idea of Bigfoot putting the stink on you guys with the pee pee smell is going to seems very, very silly after you do that. Unfortunately, just in this case it seems Nancy "look, another X!" from West Virginia has a leg up on the American Bigfoot Society when it comes to investigative abilities.

Ouch.:o

I'm very sorry. It's a touchy subject. When you mentioned Nancy and the restrooms. I have been arguing with that kook for months about it.

I also had a bad day at work.

I will need to start waiting to get home from work before I respond to these video questions. It has bitten me twice now.

Sorry agiain

[kitakaze]

No worries, take your time. If the video showed her pointing the camera at the restrooms and saying that was where the smell was coming from, I'd be pretty skeptical given the way the scenario with the urine smell was described by ABS people. Like I said, just pause the video at 00:20 when you get home. It should be like one of those hand-meets-forehead-drags-down-face moments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN9Do7_cLYA

Somebody needs to get Nancy into birdwatching or something that has to do with something actually in the woods in Salt Fork. She's going to end up being ambushed by an angry possum mama or be on the losing end of a territorial fight with a wild turkey. She's basically just a walking tetanus shot dart board.

[WGBH]

No worries, take your time. If the video showed her pointing the camera at the restrooms and saying that was where the smell was coming from, I'd be pretty skeptical given the way the scenario with the urine smell was described by ABS people. Like I said, just pause the video at 00:20 when you get home. It should be like one of those hand-meets-forehead-drags-down-face moments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN9Do7_cLYA

Somebody needs to get Nancy into birdwatching or something that has to do with something actually in the woods in Salt Fork. She's going to end up being ambushed by an angry possum mama or be on the losing end of a territorial fight with a wild turkey. She's basically just a walking tetanus shot dart board.

Yeah that is the video I was talking about.

[kitakaze]

Yeah that is the video I was talking about.

You had a look, paused at 00:20, and could see that we aren't talking about smells emanating from restrooms? You realize what that is, don't you?

I mean, how could anyone seriously with a straight face suggest that the pee pee smell noticed by the ABS in the area was not coming from that but rather possibly a giant wood ape putting the stink on you? Wouldn't you feel completely ridiculous to do so? I couldn't imagine anyone seriously doing that given what's in front of us and not rightfully expecting to receive real scoffing. That is actually quite scoff-worthy. I will confidently scoff at that. That and the idea that a species of powerful stink emanating huge wood ape far bigger than any black bear could be in a manicured, managed, and regularly patrolled area like what we see in that video acquiring its daily 12,000+ calories and remaining undiscovered by science. It's like basically a paranormal claim to me. Like a straight woo shot, no ice.

[Crowlogic]

.....

[Crowlogic]

After reading this entire thread I want to say bravo kids you've done a credible job at maintaining a level of decency! Hello John I've been over to your site and bringing your encounter here while not the easiest place in the world to navigate through the personalities is not a place where kindness in the form of humoring as a kindness is going to fill you up with empty calories. Whatever calories of knowledge you get will be the kind that will give valid energy.

While I've never seen a Sasquatch and have grave reservations that they managed to hold on into the last quarter of the 20th century maybe they did, apparently your's did at least.

Perhaps you did see a bipedal unclassified ape munching leaves in the forest. After all if it lives it eats. The only point I have contention is the overall size of the creature. For decades I simply took at face value the size reports. Some of which you know are simply stupendously big. However I took the time recently to scale some sasquatch to various sized and when I brought up a 12 ft sasquatch next to a 5'9" man it became clear to me that anything that big would be cutting a pretty wide swath through its environment. So my only question is was it really that big? Do you think your 9 footer may have been somewhat smaller say 7'-8' which is still huge.

Also there has been issue with the amount of detail you may have seen at 50 yards. I don't have any issues at all with the details you may have seen. 50 yards is 150 ft. The driveway leading up to my studio loft is 50 yards long. From there I can easily make out details passersby in the street. 150' is not a huge distance by any means. Also you saw that animal through 17 year old eyes. At 17 my eyes were pretty sharp. I suspect that the majority of posters here are considerable older than 17 and it is unfair for shall we say middle agers 35-55yrs to discount what a pair pair of 17 year old eyes are capable of seeing at 150'.

Basically that's about all I wanted to say. I hope in the end this forum and your own research helps to sort it out for you.

[WGBH]

You had a look, paused at 00:20, and could see that we aren't talking about smells emanating from restrooms? You realize what that is, don't you?

I mean, how could anyone seriously with a straight face suggest that the pee pee smell noticed by the ABS in the area was not coming from that but rather possibly a giant wood ape putting the stink on you? Wouldn't you feel completely ridiculous to do so? I couldn't imagine anyone seriously doing that given what's in front of us and not rightfully expecting to receive real scoffing. That is actually quite scoff-worthy. I will confidently scoff at that. That and the idea that a species of powerful stink emanating huge wood ape far bigger than any black bear could be in a manicured, managed, and regularly patrolled area like what we see in that video acquiring its daily 12,000+ calories and remaining undiscovered by science. It's like basically a paranormal claim to me. Like a straight woo shot, no ice.

Simple, because that is a storm water drain not a sewer and its on the opposite side of the picnic area (at least 100 yards) from the ravine where the odor was encountered.

Also, no one ever said the smell encountered was from a Bigfoot anyway.So get your facts correct.

It's also weird that in the post above you gave the impression that you did not subscribe to Nancy's restroom/drainage pipe theory and yet here you are agreeing. So which is it Kit?

[WGBH]

After reading this entire thread I want to say bravo kids you've done a credible job at maintaining a level of decency!

I think the fireworks are about to launch Crow and I have fallen into their clever trap! eep! :D

Hello John I've been over to your site and bringing your encounter here while not the easiest place in the world to navigate through the personalities is not a place where kindness in the form of humoring as a kindness is going to fill you up with empty calories. Whatever calories of knowledge you get will be the kind that will give valid energy.

I do not look for kindness here Crow. I look for ideas. I do not fear what their opinions are.

While I've never seen a Sasquatch and have grave reservations that they managed to hold on into the last quarter of the 20th century maybe they did, apparently your's did at least.

Perhaps you did see a bipedal unclassified ape munching leaves in the forest. After all if it lives it eats. The only point I have contention is the overall size of the creature. For decades I simply took at face value the size reports. Some of which you know are simply stupendously big. However I took the time recently to scale some sasquatch to various sized and when I brought up a 12 ft sasquatch next to a 5'9" man it became clear to me that anything that big would be cutting a pretty wide swath through its environment. So my only question is was it really that big? Do you think your 9 footer may have been somewhat smaller say 7'-8' which is still huge.

I saw what I saw.

No I am very sure it was well above 8 ft and probably 9 ft. I played soccer for 20 years. A soccer goal is 8 ft. It was well beyond that. I could see where its head was compared to the tree.

Also there has been issue with the amount of detail you may have seen at 50 yards. I don't have any issues at all with the details you may have seen. 50 yards is 150 ft. The driveway leading up to my studio loft is 50 yards long. From there I can easily make out details passersby in the street. 150' is not a huge distance by any means. Also you saw that animal through 17 year old eyes. At 17 my eyes were pretty sharp. I suspect that the majority of posters here are considerable older than 17 and it is unfair for shall we say middle agers 35-55yrs to discount what a pair pair of 17 year old eyes are capable of seeing at 150'.

There were details I could not see very well Crow. Such as the eyes and the fingernails. Also, It may have been less then 50 yds. It was just an estimate and I was 10 ft up in a tree, so that could make it seem farther then it was. I could see the back, shoulders, arms and hands well. My eyes were always sharp. I just started wearing glasses two years ago and I am 44.

Basically that's about all I wanted to say. I hope in the end this forum and your own research helps to sort it out for you.



I hope so to and thanks.

[HarryHenderson]

Excellent discussion, even if it is about Bigfoot. ;)
Poignant-irony-makes-me-reconsider-my-perceptions hilarious or quirky-throwaway-Seinfeld-style-observational-humour hilarious? I was shooting for the former.
Dude™, it's been both hilarious-es, and that's a good thing. Is there some kind of award we can bestow on you when you do yet another terrific and so ******* funny job of repulsing those pesky (but) ProBigfooters™? Seriously, your craftsmanship is impeccable.

The fact you still have WGBH's 'attention' is surprising, even if obvious why. I mean (and I mean it respectfully), he's still stalled on 'he saw Bigfoot'. Actually, it is true that WGBH has transformed (and possibly redeemed) himself from a literal BFF 'forum troll' to an almost famous and esteemed member of the entire Bigfoot Community™, pro and con. Gotta respect that. Maybe when WGBH finally does realize there is no Bigfoot, and he will, Kitakaze will be first in line for yet another of those awards we decided in the paragraph above to regularly give him? We can only pray.

[Crowlogic]

[QUOTE=WGBH;4819035]I hope so to and thanks.[/QU

[kitakaze]

Excellent discussion, even if it is about Bigfoot. ;)

Dude™, it's been both hilarious-es, and that's a good thing. Is there some kind of award we can bestow on you when you do yet another terrific and so ******* funny job of repulsing those pesky (but) ProBigfooters™? Seriously, your craftsmanship is impeccable.

The fact you still have WGBH's 'attention' is surprising, even if obvious why. I mean (and I mean it respectfully), he's still stalled on 'he saw Bigfoot'. Actually, it is true that WGBH has transformed (and possibly redeemed) himself from a literal BFF 'forum troll' to an almost famous and esteemed member of the entire Bigfoot Community™, pro and con. Gotta respect that. Maybe when WGBH finally does realize there is no Bigfoot, and he will, Kitakaze will be first in line for yet another of those awards we decided in the paragraph above to regularly give him? We can only pray.

Harry, I can't believe I haven't given you a great big formal welcome here. Welcome to the the JREF, you great big jackass!:) It's great to have you here. Your posts at the SFB were always entertaining. We talked about this in PM a little but I couldn't believe the stuff you got away with there. AT least once a day there I would read one of your posts and think to myself we can do that here? No, really, we can do that here?? I literally started doing the copypasta on some of your posts to my email along with mine because I thought you were going to join me on the way out of the sandbox.

It really made me laugh. I would be checking my posts to make sure I had enough please, sorry, and thank you's in them and then I'd see you throw something up that was like if George Carlin and Andrew Dice Clay went drinking together. When you told Melissa that she was scaring you and refused not to stop talking about whether we thought the Freeman casts were real in the thread devoted to that admitted hoaxer's collection my face just kind of went...

:jaw-dropp

I felt like Eddie Murphy as kid watching his Dad at the cookout... (NSFW)

u_n5JWzj6yU

(First person to catch the Bigfoot reference in there wins.)

It's great to have John here, too. After the last couple months at SFB and listening to the various blogtalk radio shows I have realized what a serious support network of friends John has in Bigfootery USA. I think it's amazing and to his credit that he's even here and listening to us still.

[WGBH]

Excellent discussion, even if it is about Bigfoot. ;)

Dude™, it's been both hilarious-es, and that's a good thing. Is there some kind of award we can bestow on you when you do yet another terrific and so ******* funny job of repulsing those pesky (but) ProBigfooters™? Seriously, your craftsmanship is impeccable.

The fact you still have WGBH's 'attention' is surprising, even if obvious why. I mean (and I mean it respectfully), he's still stalled on 'he saw Bigfoot'. Actually, it is true that WGBH has transformed (and possibly redeemed) himself from a literal BFF 'forum troll' to an almost famous and esteemed member of the entire Bigfoot Community™, pro and con. Gotta respect that. Maybe when WGBH finally does realize there is no Bigfoot, and he will, Kitakaze will be first in line for yet another of those awards we decided in the paragraph above to regularly give him? We can only pray.

Harry, How many times must I tell you? Bigfoot is real. :D

"Esteemed member of the Bigfoot Community?" WTF? You actually think people other then my friends give a crap what I say or do? Even I am not that deluded and I saw Bigfoot.

[kitakaze]

Simple, because that is a storm water drain not a sewer and its on the opposite side of the picnic area (at least 100 yards) from the ravine where the odor was encountered.

Also, no one ever said the smell encountered was from a Bigfoot anyway.So get your facts correct.

It's also weird that in the post above you gave the impression that you did not subscribe to Nancy's restroom/drainage pipe theory and yet here you are agreeing. So which is it Kit?

1) Now you're saying that the smell was encountered in the ravine rather out of the ravine by the picnic area as was explicitly stated by ABS members in the Sasquatch Watch radio show. I have the notes and the time codes here. Shall I give you the exact words you guys said?

2) Of course you guys didn't say definitively that you encountered Bigfoot in some manner. I never said you did. Not even thefirstbillyjack does that (most of the time). Only the very stupidest Bigfooters do that. Those with any sense know to simply heavily intimate the idea such as Eric Altman did about his alleged sighting there (Billy Willard called it a sighting) and the ABS did regarding smells, tracks, sights, and sounds.

3) There is no contradiction whatsovever. You've added drainage pipe to the restroom theory. I'm not talking about restrooms. As I said, I'd be skeptical of restrooms being the source. Now regarding the drainage pipe thing...

there is a sewage drain in the dip behind the bathroom. and to the left of the park is a solid white manhole cover that goes down to the ravine on th left. and yes we have had the strong smell of urine there. sometimes it will come in waves and sometimes a steady solid oder.

[WGBH]

Originally Posted by nancywv @ youtube
there is a sewage drain in the dip behind the bathroom. and to the left of the park is a solid white manhole cover that goes down to the ravine on th left. and yes we have had the strong smell of urine there. sometimes it will come in waves and sometimes a steady solid oder.

Billy checked that out. It was not the case. It is not a sewer anyway, it's a storm water drain. The restrooms are on a septic system.

[WGBH]

1) Now you're saying that the smell was encountered in the ravine rather out of the ravine by the picnic area as was explicitly stated by ABS members in the Sasquatch Watch radio show. I have the notes and the time codes here. Shall I give you the exact words you guys said?


Yes, I first encountered the smell when Billy and I were climbing OUT of the ravine. We were still 100 ft down in the ravine. Its on the show archive listen again.

It was encountered both in the ravine AND when I was standing at the tree line that goes back down into the ravine. I smelled it again when I was standing alone at the tree line and I called other members over and they smelled it also.

Who cares anyway? We got no evidence worth anything that night. Just a good story. Smells are not good enough evidence.

[kitakaze]

Originally Posted by nancywv @ youtube
there is a sewage drain in the dip behind the bathroom. and to the left of the park is a solid white manhole cover that goes down to the ravine on th left. and yes we have had the strong smell of urine there. sometimes it will come in waves and sometimes a steady solid oder.

Billy checked that out. It was not the case.

I'm going to need something better than an effective nuh-uh. You guys smelt pee pee and were in an area that had sewage pipes and obviously toilets. I have no reason to doubt that the Bigfoot enthusiast who is there and very familiar with the park can't reliably pinpoint the stink. Trying to wrangle some hope to keep it footy just makes you guys look silly. I would just concede that there is no reason the pee pee smell you guys came across wasn't simply from people's pee pee, but that's just me.

Well as I told you in the chat room, they just opened up the restroom. until then the people that were camping there were using the storm drain as a urinal. that is why the smell of urine is coming from the drain. It doesn't matter how many days I am there. I was just telling you we smell that smell often in that area. I hope you do find something. We check the area when we smell it also and it always comes from the same spot. good luck

[kitakaze]

Who cares anyway? We got no evidence worth anything that night. Just a good story. Smells are not good enough evidence.

Because as you yourself said and I quoted you here, it was important in considering the possibility that you really did encounter Bigfoot there at SFSP. The only thing we can see evidence of is that there was some kind of Bigfooter gong show going on out there and the timing for your expedition was highly unfortunate (and IMO in just about the worst place possible).

I'm sure that you guys will take it as a learning experience for the next expedition in the summer.

[WGBH]

I'm going to need something better than an effective nuh-uh. You guys smelt pee pee and were in an area that had sewage pipes and obviously toilets. I have no reason to doubt that the Bigfoot enthusiast who is there and very familiar with the park can't reliably pinpoint the stink. Trying to wrangle some hope to keep it footy just makes you guys look silly. I would just concede that there is no reason the pee pee smell you guys came across wasn't simply from people's pee pee, but that's just me.

I edited the post above and you were too quick for me. We are not trying to wrangle anything, and you are the one being silly. Just smelling something no matter the source is not proof anyway. Be it phantom Bigfoot or phantom sewer.

Also, it is funny that you are betting on Nancy in this race. If you only knew Kit...if you only knew. But go for it, knock yourself out.

[WGBH]

The only thing we can see evidence of is that there was some kind of Bigfooter gong show going on out there and the timing for your expedition was highly unfortunate (and IMO in just about the worst place possible).

How can you see that? You were not there. This is nothing more then your biased, venom filled opinion and you can keep it.

I'm sure that you guys will take it as a learning experience for the next expedition in the summer.

It's always a learning experience. Good and bad.

[tsig]

Yes, I first encountered the smell when Billy and I were climbing OUT of the ravine. We were still 100 ft down in the ravine. Its on the show archive listen again.

It was encountered both in the ravine AND when I was standing at the tree line that goes back down into the ravine. I smelled it again when I was standing alone at the tree line and I called other members over and they smelled it also.

Who cares anyway? We got no evidence worth anything that night. Just a good story. Smells are not good enough evidence.

Especially since no one knows what a BF smells like.

[desertgal]

I know. I acted like a complete moron a couple days back.

Well, I'll give you bonus points for admitting that. :)

[Crowlogic]

I give this thread about another 2 pages before it goes south into a flame war.

[Jungle Jim]

I give this thread about another 2 pages before it goes south into a flame war.

I'd like to know how it ever got to sixteen pages.

[WGBH]

Especially since no one knows what a BF smells like.

I remember what I smelled in 1982. Will not forget it. The question is did it come from the animal I witnessed.

[WGBH]

I give this thread about another 2 pages before it goes south into a flame war.

If is does, I will not be around to see it. I am not interested in that and have better things to do.

[WGBH]

I'd like to know how it ever got to sixteen pages.

Not because of your input.

[Skeptical Greg]

Yes, I first encountered the smell when Billy and I were climbing OUT of the ravine. We were still 100 ft down in the ravine. Its on the show archive listen again.

It was encountered both in the ravine AND when I was standing at the tree line that goes back down into the ravine. I smelled it again when I was standing alone at the tree line and I called other members over and they smelled it also.

Who cares anyway? We got no evidence worth anything that night. Just a good story. Smells are not good enough evidence. You are aware that all kinds of animals mark their territory with urine, aren't you ?

[WGBH]

You are aware that all kinds of animals mark their territory with urine, aren't you ?

Yes, and that is the direction I am leaning in for an explanation. Not the restroom/drain theory.

[desertgal]

I'd like to know how it ever got to sixteen pages.
Not because of your input.

Is there a rule that says JJ couldn't remark on the thread because he hasn't posted in it consistently? If so, please point it out to me-I must have missed it.

[Spektator]

Hope this is not too off-topic, but the phantom lion is still said to be roaming the suburban wilds of a nearby county. However, even though there are now more witnesses, the sightings don't seem to make a whole heck of a lot of sense. According to this story (http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/news/article/20148/)in the Gainesville (Ga) newspaper, some people say it's an African lion, some say it's a mountain lion. One man swore it left scat in his yard, but the poop isn't any kind of cat poop. Another one found its paw print, but the print turned out to be from a bear. Someone else said it killed his chickens, but the physical evidence suggests dogs were to blame. Meanwhile, no lions have turned up, and some people are suggesting that folks might be seeing nothing more than a house cat. Others are supposing that some pet owner has lost his exotic big cat . . . though no big cat has actually been photographed and efforts to lure one into a trap have resulted in no captures.

I offer this only because it seems to indicate that at least some bigfoot witnesses may not have seen what they thought they saw.

[LuvGodzilla]

Yes, and that is the direction I am leaning in for an explanation. Not the restroom/drain theory.

I have smelled deer, elk and moose urine and it's pretty strong when it's fresh. Also my dog always wants to roll in fresh urine spots.

I do have a question for you. Was the wind blowing that night, normally wind (air currents) travels downhill at night.

I'm also wondering why you are so reluctant to seek professional help for your nightmares. I can't imagine that your health hasn't suffered from sleep disturbance (deprivation).

[WGBH]

I have smelled deer, elk and moose urine and it's pretty strong when it's fresh. Also my dog always wants to roll in fresh urine spots.

I do have a question for you. Was the wind blowing that night, normally wind (air currents) travels downhill at night.

No, there was not a strong wind in any direction that night. It was also cold (low 40's).


I'm also wondering why you are so reluctant to seek professional help for your nightmares. I can't imagine that your health hasn't suffered from sleep disturbance (deprivation).

Well, the best answer for that would be stubbornness. I have never received anything but a negative reaction when discussing my encounter. I hate talking about it in public and to strangers. Even Doctors.

Yes my health has suffered. I never realized how a good night's sleep can improve me, until I took the sleep drugs and felt the difference. The problem is, that I hate the groggy before and after effects.

[WGBH]

Is there a rule that says JJ couldn't remark on the thread because he hasn't posted in it consistently? If so, please point it out to me-I must have missed it.

Apparently not.

[WGBH]

Hope this is not too off-topic, but the phantom lion is still said to be roaming the suburban wilds of a nearby county.

I offer this only because it seems to indicate that at least some bigfoot witnesses may not have seen what they thought they saw.

Not off topic and it sure is a possibility.

[makaya325]

Hope this is not too off-topic, but the phantom lion is still said to be roaming the suburban wilds of a nearby county. However, even though there are now more witnesses, the sightings don't seem to make a whole heck of a lot of sense. According to this story (http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/news/article/20148/)in the Gainesville (Ga) newspaper, some people say it's an African lion, some say it's a mountain lion. One man swore it left scat in his yard, but the poop isn't any kind of cat poop. Another one found its paw print, but the print turned out to be from a bear. Someone else said it killed his chickens, but the physical evidence suggests dogs were to blame. Meanwhile, no lions have turned up, and some people are suggesting that folks might be seeing nothing more than a house cat. Others are supposing that some pet owner has lost his exotic big cat . . . though no big cat has actually been photographed and efforts to lure one into a trap have resulted in no captures.

I offer this only because it seems to indicate that at least some bigfoot witnesses may not have seen what they thought they saw.


It always could have been a stealthy Puma, or big feline. Do you even realize that felines are one of the most secretive and sly animals of them all?

For every phantom lion case there is, there are several real cases that turn up to be true.

[Spektator]

It always could have been a stealthy Puma, or big feline. Do you even realize that felines are one of the most secretive and sly animals of them all?

For every phantom lion case there is, there are several real cases that turn up to be true.

I suppose it might be. I understand from the findings of Thomas Smothers that pumas are crafty about hiding in crevasses.

[kitakaze]

Yes, and that is the direction I am leaning in for an explanation. Not the restroom/drain theory.

Putting the pee pee smell aside for a minute, I'm going to give people some links who might be wondering what we are talking about. I am talking to John (WGBH) about two things. One his his alleged sighting of a 9 x 6 ft Bigfoot in the swamp in Pasquatank County NC, close to the Pasquatank River, near Elizabeth City and the Great Dismal Swamp.

Here are two links for that encounter story:

Deer hunter witnesses a large, gorilla like animal (http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=3335)

'Round the mulberry bush (http://blogsquatcher.blogspot.com/2009/04/round-mulberry-bush.html)

The other thing I am discussing with John here is an excursion he went on in April with his Bigfoot enthusiast organization, the American Bigfoot Society. More information can be found here:

Sasquatch Watch Radio: Guests are the ABS Expedition Team (http://www.blogtalkradio.com/sasquatchwatchradio/2009/04/21/Sasquatch-Watch-Radio-Guests-are-the-ABS-Expedition-Team)

2009 Expedition Discussion Squatchwatch Radio, Salt Fork State Park (http://searchforbigfoot.org/index.php?showtopic=1297)

John, how do you think it is that the state of Ohio and the people that run the Salt Fork State Park have been unable to confirm the massive rock-throwing monster wood-apes loose in their recreational park?

[WGBH]

.

The other thing I am discussing with John here is an excursion he went on in April with his Bigfoot research organization, the American Bigfoot Society.

John, how do you think it is that the state of Ohio and the people that run the Salt Fork State Park have been unable to confirm the massive rock-throwing monster wood-apes loose in their recreational park?

Because they do not go out looking for it.

[Vortigern99]

But WGBH, you and dozens of others do go out looking for it in that area alone -- never mind all the other groups around the USA which also "go out looking for it" -- and still there is no non-hoaxable, independently verified evidence for the animal's existence. Doesn't this tell you anything?

Also, if the animal really exists, it seems plausible that a 9x6 animal is going to be spotted whether you're "out looking for the thing" or not. Park rangers, botanists, zoologists, bird watchers, and park attendees aren't out looking for mosquitoes, either, but I bet they come across a few now and again.

[makaya325]

Because they do not go out looking for it.

To add to Kitz: We must accept that forest officials have failed to discover a population of 9x6 monsters running around in areas that are close to civilization. Sorry, friend, but that defies the laws of nature: An animal that big would have to be found sooner or later. I mean it can stay there forever and not be found...unless its not an animal...were talking about BF the animal, not BF the shapeshifter..are we not?

[kitakaze]

To add to Kitz: We must accept that forest officials have failed to discover a population of 9x6 monsters running around in areas that are close to civilization. Sorry, friend, but that defies the laws of nature: An animal that big would have to be found sooner or later. I mean it can stay there forever and not be found...unless its not an animal...were talking about BF the animal, not BF the shapeshifter..are we not?

This may seem a nitpick but John would tell you that just because the creature that he believes he saw was 9 x 6 ft, it doesn't mean they all are. He might think that creature he saw was simply a larger than average male. He'll also tell you that signs of the creature are being found by everyday people so essentially the creature is being found in a way. The problem is that qualified officials are not looking for the creature and it is simply to elusive being a master of its own environment.

That is where I expect John to be coming from.

[tsig]

I remember what I smelled in 1982. Will not forget it. The question is did it come from the animal I witnessed.

Yeh, the one you see in the mirror. How do you know what BF smells like?

[tsig]

Yes, and that is the direction I am leaning in for an explanation. Not the restroom/drain theory.

The fact is that people pissed into a drain. If you want proof just go into any bar in Cambridge and use the restroom.

[makaya325]

This may seem a nitpick but John would tell you that just because the creature that he believes he saw was 9 x 6 ft, it doesn't mean they all are. He might think that creature he saw was simply a larger than average male. He'll also tell you that signs of the creature are being found by everyday people so essentially the creature is being found in a way. The problem is that qualified officials are not looking for the creature and it is simply to elusive being a master of its own environment.

That is where I expect John to be coming from.

I will guarantee John that there are no animals over 50 lbs living undiscovered in NA.

[desertgal]

I will guarantee John that there are no animals over 50 lbs living undiscovered in NA.

You can't guarantee the non-existence of an undiscovered animal.

[makaya325]

You can't guarantee the non-existence of an undiscovered animal.

Yes you can Desert

I know, you cant guarantee the non-existence of, lets say, an undiscovered Monkey living in Borneo.

You can guarantee the non-existence of a giant Primate living undiscovered in a populated country.

[desertgal]

You can guarantee the non-existence of a giant Primate living undiscovered in a populated country.

You're flip flopping again.

[makaya325]

You're flip flopping again.

How am i flip flopping? I am using common sense when i say that You cant rule out a, lets say, small species of Gibbon or Orangutan in Borneo, but you can rule out a population of giant monsters roaming the ever growing US.

[kitakaze]

Because they do not go out looking for it.

Are they insane? Are they completely incompetent at the jobs they do? The people whose jobs it is to maintain and patrol that park can't or won't find the massive stinking wood apes that chuck rocks and sticks at their park visitors, scream like ladies, roar like monsters, bang on trees, approach their camps, and slink about the picnic areas? These fricking Bigfeets are worse than drunken hillbillies.

These creatures you believe are there in that park have to act just like real animals. This particular animal is going to need about at least 12,000 calories a day. It is going to have to devote considerable time to doing that. Smaller but still sizable animals like bears make themselves known when they come into parks like that because they are inevitably drawn towards human food sources such as garbage recepticals. You might say that the Bigfoots as large primates are too smart for that and will avoid doing such things but by your own enthusiast organizations thinking, these creatures are habitually approaching humans in the SFSP.

These creatures also have to hump. They need to be able to attract a mate that isn't like its sister. They are going to have to compete for mates and contend with rivals for resources. They are going to have call out to each other and find each other. It is basically impossible that they can do any of this while having eluded detection by the people who run the park. Park officials and staff may light-heartedly encourage some of the many Bigfoot enthusiast visitors with their yearly conference at the park's conference center and money spent in the park to think Bigfoot might be there but if that really was the case, they would know about it and it would be no joke. There's no way that a park for which the sole reason for its existence is recreation is going to allow massive, potentially harmful creatures to run loose about the park unchecked. People who can't understand this are having like some kind of misfire going on in their heads.

For the Bigfoots in SFSP it would be like this...

Oh, me so excited! That sounds like a nice hairy babe calling out to me. Me hope she has a great big rump and nice childbearing hips. If me very lucky she won't be my cousin and maybe even will have nice hairy boobies that stick way out directly from her lower torso just like they do on those hairy babes out in California. Maybe me shall bring her this half eaten corn on the cob me got from the dumpster over by the handicapped picnic area and two of these buffalo chicken wings me yoinked from one of the hairless puny one's campsites. If it turns out to be another one of those puny ones making the babe noises come out from the weird little boxes, me will be so mad me just might throw a pig. Me doesn't want that to happen because pigs aren't easy to find around here. Oh luck be a hairy lady tonight.

For the hairless puny ones in SFSP it would be like this...

Oh, Ronny, come quick! Bring the camcorder. The Bigfoots are panthooting over by the blackberry bushes again. Wow, that dirty white one is really big! Looks like that reddish one is pretty young. I love it when they slap there chests like bongos. The ranger told me September is their mating season. Eww, look at that! The reddish one just had a great big poop. Oh heavens, Ronny. They better not poop near our campsite. Bigfoot poop is just the worst. Remember last year when my sister Jean was camping in the Adirondacks and she found a great big Bigfoot poop in her tent? Ruined the tent, it did. Had to cut the trip short and it was Labor Day weekend just like now. She had to throw out the tent. $149 dollars it was. She got it from the Eddie Bauer outlet on sale. $149 dollars on sale? The pirates!

Oh, Ronny, look! The smaller reddish one is running away. Look, there he goes up the tree. It's funny, you know. You'd think they'd be better climbers with those great big long arms they got. You remember Liz from Punderson. She was at the Christmas party. She had her nose done, by the way. Well anyway, she was here earlier this summer and she said she saw one of the younger Bigfoots fall right out of a tree just over by the resort lodge. Broke its leg, the poor thing did. Screamed to high heaven like a dying lady, it did. They had to shoot the poor thing with the dart gun and take it to the animal shelter. Not before it put the stink on everyone, though. She said she nearly got sick in a bush, it was so bad. The parks magazine did a piece on it with pictures and everything. Oh, you should have seen it. It was such a sight. I have it at home somewhere. They put the Bigfoot in this special wagon they made so that it could roll around till its leg mended and they could let it go. Bigfoot on wheels! I remember the park staff named him J.J. after Burt Reynold's character in "Cannonball Run". Isn't that something?

Oh, there goes the white one! Isn't it strange how they hold their arms straight down when they run? Make them look kind of gimpy, if you ask me. Oh, wait till Jean sees this. Did you get all that?

And that is how real life would sound if Bigfoot were real and lived in Salt Fork.

[makaya325]

Are they insane? Are they completely incompetent at the jobs they do? The people whose jobs it is to maintain and patrol that park can't or won't find the massive stinking wood apes that chuck rocks and sticks at their park visitors, scream like ladies, roar like monsters, bang on trees, approach their camps, and slink about the picnic areas? These fricking Bigfeets are worse than drunken hillbillies.

These creatures you believe are there in that park have to act just like real animals. This particular animal is going to need about at least 12,000 calories a day. It is going to have to devote considerable time to doing that. Smaller but still sizable animals like bears make themselves known when they come into parks like that because they are inevitably drawn towards human food sources such as garbage recepticals. You might say that the Bigfoots as large primates are too smart for that and will avoid doing such things but by your own enthusiast organizations thinking, these creatures are habitually approaching humans in the SFSP.

These creatures also have to hump. They need to be able to attract a mate that isn't like its sister. They are going to have to compete for mates and contend with rivals for resources. They are going to have call out to each other and find each other. It is basically impossible that they can do any of this while having eluded detection by the people who run the park. Park officials and staff may light-heartedly encourage some of the many Bigfoot enthusiast visitors with their yearly conference at the park's conference center and money spent in the park to think Bigfoot might be there but if that really was the case, they would know about it and it would be no joke. There's no way that a park for which the sole reason for its existence is recreation is going to allow massive, potentially harmful creatures to run loose about the park unchecked. People who can't understand this are having like some kind of misfire going on in their heads.

For the Bigfoots in SFSP it would be like this...

Oh, me so excited! That sounds like a nice hairy babe calling out to me. Me hope she has a great big rump and nice childbearing hips. If me very lucky she won't be my cousin and maybe even will have nice hairy boobies that stick way out directly from her lower torso just like they do on those hairy babes out in California. Maybe me shall bring her this half eaten corn on the cob me got from the dumpster over by the handicapped picnic area and two of these buffalo chicken wings me yoinked from one of the hairless puny one's campsites. If it turns out to be another one of those puny ones making the babe noises come out from the weird little boxes, me will be so mad me just might throw a pig. Me doesn't want that to happen because pigs aren't easy to find around here. Oh luck be a hairy lady tonight.

For the hairless puny ones in SFSP it would be like this...

Oh, Ronny, come quick! Bring the camcorder. The Bigfoots are panthooting over by the blackberry bushes again. Wow, that dirty white one is really big! Looks like that reddish one is pretty young. I love it when they slap there chests like bongos. The ranger told me September is their mating season. Eww, look at that! The reddish one just had a great big poop. Oh heavens, Ronny. They better not poop near our campsite. Bigfoot poop is just the worst. Remember last year when my sister Jean was camping in the Adirondacks and she found a great big Bigfoot poop in her tent? Ruined the tent, it did. Had to cut the trip short and it was Labor Day weekend just like now. She had to throw out the tent. $149 dollars it was. She got it from the Eddie Bauer outlet on sale. $149 dollars on sale? The pirates!

Oh, Ronny, look! The smaller reddish one is running away. Look, there he goes up the tree. It's funny, you know. You'd think they'd be better climbers with those great big long arms they got. You remember Liz from Punderson. She was at the Christmas party. She had her nose done, by the way. Well anyway, she was here earlier this summer and she said she saw one of the younger Bigfoots fall right out of a tree just over by the resort lodge. Broke its leg, the poor thing did. Screamed to high heaven like a dying lady, it did. They had to shoot the poor thing with the dart gun and take it to the animal shelter. Not before it put the stink on everyone, though. She said she nearly got sick in a bush, it was so bad. The parks magazine did a piece on it with pictures and everything. Oh, you should have seen it. It was such a sight. I have it at home somewhere. They put the Bigfoot in this special wagon they made so that it could roll around till its leg mended and they could let it go. Bigfoot on wheels! I remember the park staff named him J.J. after Burt Reynold's character in "Cannonball Run". Isn't that something?

Oh, there goes the white one! Isn't it strange how they hold their arms straight down when they run? Make them look kind of gimpy, if you ask me. Oh, wait till Jean sees this. Did you get all that?

And that is how real life would sound if Bigfoot were real and lived in Salt Fork.

Kitz is right. That is not to say that a Population could exist in a much larger area, like the northwest territories.

To add: With mating, animals usually make LOUD, and i mean LOUD, moans and screams. If 2 bigfoots were mating, someone would definitely hear it and go to see whats going on. Instead, we end up with silence in the forest: The E! true story of the Ninja Bigfoots of Salt Fork park!

[WGBH]

Are they insane? Are they completely incompetent at the jobs they do? The people whose jobs it is to maintain and patrol that park can't or won't find the massive stinking wood apes that chuck rocks and sticks at their park visitors, scream like ladies, roar like monsters, bang on trees, approach their camps, and slink about the picnic areas? These fricking Bigfeets are worse than drunken hillbillies.

These creatures you believe are there in that park have to act just like real animals.

Who said I believe they are in Salt Fork? It's possible, but seeing is believing.

This particular animal is going to need about at least 12,000 calories a day. It is going to have to devote considerable time to doing that. Smaller but still sizable animals like bears make themselves known when they come into parks like that because they are inevitably drawn towards human food sources such as garbage recepticals.

Bears are sighted rarely in SFSP. Yes, you are correct the theory is they do feed out of the dumpsters when they can. The problem is the park is not that crowded in the winter except for possibly the Lodge. So the dumpsters are not full of food.


You might say that the Bigfoots as large primates are too smart for that and will avoid doing such things

Correct

but by your own enthusiast organizations thinking, these creatures are habitually approaching humans in the SFSP.


Incorrect

These creatures also have to hump. They need to be able to attract a mate that isn't like its sister. They are going to have to compete for mates and contend with rivals for resources. They are going to have call out to each other and find each other. It is basically impossible that they can do any of this while having eluded detection by the people who run the park. Park officials and staff may light-heartedly encourage some of the many Bigfoot enthusiast visitors with their yearly conference at the park's conference center and money spent in the park to think Bigfoot might be there but if that really was the case, they would know about it and it would be no joke. There's no way that a park for which the sole reason for its existence is recreation is going to allow massive, potentially harmful creatures to run loose about the park unchecked. People who can't understand this are having like some kind of misfire going on in their heads.

Nice opinion, but that's all it is.

For the Bigfoots in SFSP it would be like this...

Oh, me so excited! That sounds like a nice hairy babe calling out to me. Me hope she has a great big rump and nice childbearing hips. If me very lucky she won't be my cousin and maybe even will have nice hairy boobies that stick way out directly from her lower torso just like they do on those hairy babes out in California. Maybe me shall bring her this half eaten corn on the cob me got from the dumpster over by the handicapped picnic area and two of these buffalo chicken wings me yoinked from one of the hairless puny one's campsites. If it turns out to be another one of those puny ones making the babe noises come out from the weird little boxes, me will be so mad me just might throw a pig. Me doesn't want that to happen because pigs aren't easy to find around here. Oh luck be a hairy lady tonight.



For the hairless puny ones in SFSP it would be like this...

[B]Oh, Ronny, come quick! Bring the camcorder. The Bigfoots are panthooting over by the blackberry bushes again. Wow, that dirty white one is really big! Looks like that reddish one is pretty young. I love it when they slap there chests like bongos. The ranger told me September is their mating season. Eww, look at that! The reddish one just had a great big poop. Oh heavens, Ronny. They better not poop near our campsite. Bigfoot poop is just the worst. Remember last year when my sister Jean was camping in the Adirondacks and she found a great big Bigfoot poop in her tent? Ruined the tent, it did. Had to cut the trip short and it was Labor Day weekend just like now. She had to throw out the tent. $149 dollars it was. She got it from the Eddie Bauer outlet on sale. $149 dollars on sale? The pirates!

Oh, Ronny, look! The smaller reddish one is running away. Look, there he goes up the tree. It's funny, you know. You'd think they'd be better climbers with those great big long arms they got. You remember Liz from Punderson. She was at the Christmas party. She had her nose done, by the way. Well anyway, she was here earlier this summer and she said she saw one of the younger Bigfoots fall right out of a tree just over by the resort lodge. Broke its leg, the poor thing did. Screamed to high heaven like a dying lady, it did. They had to shoot the poor thing with the dart gun and take it to the animal shelter. Not before it put the stink on everyone, though. She said she nearly got sick in a bush, it was so bad. The parks magazine did a piece on it with pictures and everything. Oh, you should have seen it. It was such a sight. I have it at home somewhere. They put the Bigfoot in this special wagon they made so that it could roll around till its leg mended and they could let it go. Bigfoot on wheels! I remember the park staff named him J.J. after Burt Reynold's character in "Cannonball Run". Isn't that something?

Oh, there goes the white one! Isn't it strange how they hold their arms straight down when they run? Make them look kind of gimpy, if you ask me. Oh, wait till Jean sees this. Did you get all that?

And that is how real life would sound if Bigfoot were real and lived in Salt Fork.

That was... interesting.

[Vortigern99]

Kit, you certainly have a way with words! I'll leave it at that, because my attempts at satirical absurdity meant to point up the flaws in others' belief systems will just sound mean-spirited and derogatory. Somehow your method is as effective as it is damn funny. :D

[Crowlogic]

To add: With mating, animals usually make LOUD, and i mean LOUD, moans and screams. If 2 bigfoots were mating, someone would definitely hear it and go to see whats going on. Instead, we end up with silence in the forest: The E! true story of the Ninja Bigfoots of Salt Fork park!

Ever hear snakes mating? How about rabbits? Hell they mate so often rabbit sex noise should be the universal sound backdrop of much of the planet. How much time have you actually spent in the woods/wilderness? Most of the time insects and birds are the dominant sounds. And could you or Jane and Joe state park visitor actually determine what the mating sounds of the forest in a given place actually are? Ever see Chimps mate? Not so noisy as you think!

[makaya325]

Ever hear snakes mating? How about rabbits? Hell they mate so often rabbit sex noise should be the universal sound backdrop of much of the planet. How much time have you actually spent in the woods/wilderness? Most of the time insects and birds are the dominant sounds. And could you or Jane and Joe state park visitor actually determine what the mating sounds of the forest in a given place actually are? Ever see Chimps mate? Not so noisy as you think!

Bears, Gorillas, and the other large mammals make plenty of loud noises, due to the size of their voice boxes and the tremendous amount of vocalization they generate through their lungs. Unless BF is a ninja, there is no way it can be mating and going unseen at the same time.

[WGBH]

Unless BF is a ninja, there is no way it can be mating and going unseen at the same time.

Are you serious?

[Vortigern99]

You may wish to take mayaka's posts with a grain -- make that a pound -- of salt. He delights in making overstatements, miscalculations and outright errors so that others can come behind him and correct him.

In short, not all primates mate whilst howling at the top of their lungs. If BF is a real animal, it's at least plausible that it might get away with silent boinking.

EDIT: However, what is not plausible, as kitakaze has pointed out, is that the rangers and curates of a manicured public park -- even one covering hundreds of square miles -- could not possibly be ignorant of the presence of a breeding population of giant stinking wood apes which 1) show little fear of human observation or encounters, 2) need upwards of 10,000 calories per day and 3) hurl sticks and stones at humans (contradictory points, but I'm just going by the anecdotal accounts). Zoologists, botanists and bird watchers, not to mention recreational visitors, would have seen these animals on many occasions and their existence would have been verified time and again.

[kitakaze]

Who said I believe they are in Salt Fork? It's possible, but seeing is believing.

Your skepticism is encouraging. I very rarely say this but I think it is actually literally impossible that Bigfoots could be in Salt Fork feeding, breeding, and all that unknown to science. I would like to hear some hypothetical model of how it would be possible.

So you don't believe Bigfoot is in SFSP, which is a good thing, but just out of curiosity I have a question...

The ABS Salt Fork excursion consisted of 12 individuals from various parts of the U.S. coming together their for a type of zoological research. How much money in total would you say was spent by ABS members for that excursion?

Bears are sighted rarely in SFSP. Yes, you are correct the theory is they do feed out of the dumpsters when they can. The problem is the park is not that crowded in the winter except for possibly the Lodge. So the dumpsters are not full of food.


Yes, black bears are an extremely rare occurence in SFSP. It's like a big deal. You know what is neat about bears? They have these just insanely sensitive noses that allow them to seek out food sources from very far away and buried in the ground. They have the wicked claws and sharp teeth that allow them to scrounge out things to eat from unlikely places. Bigfoot doesn't have that. No badass claws, crazy noses, or big sharp canines. Where do you suppose a clan of Bigfoots is getting its 12,000+ calories while remaining undetected by park officials and staff? You know, because this is something that has to happen to break into the realm of possibility.

Incorrect


The ABS doesn't believe the encounter reports from SFSP? They don't believe Eric Altman had a sighting at the handicapped picnic area? That is neither what they said (Billy Willard's words about why you guys were there) or what was written in the thread at the SFB. What the heck were they doing there?

And you don't think the Bigfoots are approaching people? You yourself gave me an encounter report featuring a ten foot tall - that's 10 feet - Bigfoot that approached two armed people with 12 gauge shotgun and rifle only 30 feet away.

Ho * ly * Crap *

http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=6267

Nice opinion, but that's all it is.

And yet you're basically just saying "nuh-uh" without offering anything of substance in debate of a conclusion i've made based on the facts of the situation of SFSP. You don't believe Bigfoot is in SFSP because you haven't seen it but how is it possible that Bigfoot could be inhabiting a highly used recreational area for people and families and officials just be standing there with there hands in their pockets. Where is the failure of basic common sense here? Under what circumstances could a species of monster wood ape live in SFSP undetected by the people whose jobs are managing the park? I really want to see if you can mentally kind of work this out.

That was... interesting.

I hope you liked it. I enjoyed writing it. It is colourful and whacky but what it also is is exactly the sort of thing we should be seeing if Bigfoot as described by Bigfoot enthusiasts is living in SFSP and is in fact a real primate species. It's humour borne from common sense about the way things should really be.

I often get the sense with Bigfoot enthusiasts that they've become so distracted by the community aspects of their sub-culture that they somewhere along the way decided not to think things through. It's almost like they kind of know on some fundamental level that Bigfoot doesn't really exist and allow themselves to just continue playing Woods & Wildmen for the fun of it. I don't think they really think of Bigfoot as being an actual real animal. It's basically like some figure or manifestation of a philosophy they have. It's the pursuit of a mystery and things don't need to really make sense because it's fun.

The perfect poster for this is Don Keating being filmed by Nancy in SFSP kneeling over what they think is a possible Bigfoot print in the grass and dirt by the handicapped picnic area with a magnifying glass and little flag thinking he's found dermals and then losing them. The ground surface is literally physically impossible to retain detail as fine as dermatoglyphics and these guys are gathered around this thing giddy with excitement. It's like, yep, that's Bigfootery.

Take this video and pause it at 00:51 and have a look where they are. The idea that Bigfoot is on the loose their is about as nuts as the idea that there is dermals in the grass and leaves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Auy7Z5pW3D8&feature=related

[Crowlogic]

You may wish to take mayaka's posts with a grain -- make that a pound -- of salt. He delights in making overstatements, miscalculations and outright errors so that others can come behind him and correct him.

In short, not all primates mate whilst howling at the top of their lungs. If BF is a real animal, it's at least plausible that it might get away with silent boinking.

EDIT: However, what is not plausible, as kitakaze has pointed out, is that the rangers and curates of a manicured public park -- even one covering hundreds of square miles -- could not possibly be ignorant of the presence of a breeding population of giant stinking wood apes which 1) show little fear of human observation or encounters, 2) need upwards of 10,000 calories per day and 3) hurl sticks and stones at humans (contradictory points, but I'm just going by the anecdotal accounts). Zoologists, botanists and bird watchers, not to mention recreational visitors, would have seen these animals on many occasions and their existence would have been verified time and again.

No argument from me that park personnel would be versed in the local flora and fauna. No argument either about west of the Rockies either. I happen to have logged a great deal of time in the Adirondacks on official research and it convinced me that at least in that region don't even tease yourself with the idea of Bigfoot.

However after at the end of the day no amount of sarcasm, logic, humor, understanding and logic is going to change the fact that WGBH has his sighting to come to terms with. I'm of the opinion that he'll either find what he's looking for or the search will go on until the weight of negative evidence resets the imperative from finding confirmation of what he saw one of to sometimes we encounter things that are off the radar and remain off the radar. But I think he needs the hands on approach he's engaged in.

[Vortigern99]

You may be right. I cannot speak to what WGBH "needs" in an emotional or psychological sense. That is not the purview of this thread, this site or my involvement in it. I can only assess his and others' accounts, examine the information they offer versus other information I have memorized or at my fingertips, and apply whatever degree of critical thinking I'm capable of, in order to try and discern the facts.

In this case, the facts appear to indicate that WGBH imagined, dreamed or misinterpreted what he saw 27 years ago, if he indeed saw anything at all and did not hallucinate it out of whole cloth, and that he is currently engaged in a live-action roleplaying game involving giant stinking wood apes and silly persons running amok in a manicured park 6 miles from the nearest township.

[WGBH]

Your skepticism is encouraging. I very rarely say this but I think it is actually literally impossible that Bigfoots could be in Salt Fork feeding, breeding, and all that unknown to science. I would like to hear some hypothetical model of how it would be possible.

So you don't believe Bigfoot is in SFSP, which is a good thing, but just out of curiosity I have a question...

The ABS Salt Fork excursion consisted of 12 individuals from various parts of the U.S. coming together their for a type of zoological research. How much money in total would you say was spent by ABS members for that excursion?

We stayed in 2 cabins that sleep 6. The cabins were $180 a night. For 3 days. So that's $90 per person. Plus gas money to get there and food costs.
People came from Texas,Virginia, Wisconsin,Ohio and Indiana that I can remember.



Yes, black bears are an extremely rare occurence in SFSP. It's like a big deal. You know what is neat about bears? They have these just insanely sensitive noses that allow them to seek out food sources from very far away and buried in the ground. They have the wicked claws and sharp teeth that allow them to scrounge out things to eat from unlikely places. Bigfoot doesn't have that. No badass claws, crazy noses, or big sharp canines. Where do you suppose a clan of Bigfoots is getting its 12,000+ calories while remaining undetected by park officials and staff? You know, because this is something that has to happen to break into the realm of possibility.

I would think omnivorous foraging like the bears do.



The ABS doesn't believe the encounter reports from SFSP? They don't believe Eric Altman had a sighting at the handicapped picnic area? That is neither what they said (Billy Willard's words about why you guys were there) or what was written in the thread at the SFB. What the heck were they doing there?

What do these ABS questions and attacks have to do with a thread about "seeing Bigfoot"?

Well, I will play along, I guess. The ABS does subscribe to the theory that Salt Fork could possibly be a area of Bigfoot activity. Eric saw something, but by his own admission, did not get a good look. The sightings have dropped off significantly because of the increased human activity in the park.



And you don't think the Bigfoots are approaching people? You yourself gave me an encounter report featuring a ten foot tall - that's 10 feet - Bigfoot that approached two armed people with 12 gauge shotgun and rifle only 30 feet away.

Ho * ly * Crap *

http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=6267

You asked me about more Bigfoot reports from the area of NC. So I pointed it out when I saw it. That's all. Don't read more into it then that. For someone who professes the scientific methods, you sure jump to conclusions.



And yet you're basically just saying "nuh-uh" without offering anything of substance in debate of a conclusion i've made based on the facts of the situation of SFSP. You don't believe Bigfoot is in SFSP because you haven't seen it but how is it possible that Bigfoot could be inhabiting a highly used recreational area for people and families and officials just be standing there with there hands in their pockets. Where is the failure of basic common sense here? Under what circumstances could a species of monster wood ape live in SFSP undetected by the people whose jobs are managing the park? I really want to see if you can mentally kind of work this out.

How would you know any facts about SFSP? Have you been there? Define highly used. Define undetected. Are you not here discussing reported sightings in SFSP? Unless you have spoken to the park staff, you have no idea what they know. I can mentally work it out fine,thanks. The park and surrounding areas could be used as a habitat for this undiscovered animal.



I hope you liked it. I enjoyed writing it. It is colourful and whacky but what it also is is exactly the sort of thing we should be seeing if Bigfoot as described by Bigfoot enthusiasts is living in SFSP and is in fact a real primate species. It's humour borne from common sense about the way things should really be.

Well, at least you enjoyed writing it.


I often get the sense with Bigfoot enthusiasts that they've become so distracted by the community aspects of their sub-culture that they somewhere along the way decided not to think things through. It's almost like they kind of know on some fundamental level that Bigfoot doesn't really exist and allow themselves to just continue playing Woods & Wildmen for the fun of it. I don't think they really think of Bigfoot as being an actual real animal. It's basically like some figure or manifestation of a philosophy they have. It's the pursuit of a mystery and things don't need to really make sense because it's fun.

What a crock of Sh#t this is.

The perfect poster for this is Don Keating being filmed by Nancy in SFSP kneeling over what they think is a possible Bigfoot print in the grass and dirt by the handicapped picnic area with a magnifying glass and little flag thinking he's found dermals and then losing them. The ground surface is literally physically impossible to retain detail as fine as dermatoglyphics and these guys are gathered around this thing giddy with excitement. It's like, yep, that's Bigfootery.

How would you know this about the substrate and it's ability to hold dermals? You were there? What is your expertise regarding tracks and track casting? You use the skill a lot in the Tokyo night clubs?

Take this video and pause it at 00:51 and have a look where they are. The idea that Bigfoot is on the loose their is about as nuts as the idea that there is dermals in the grass and leaves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Auy7Z5pW3D8&feature=related

Nope, I'm done looking at the silly youtube videos you seem to LOVE. Find someone else who cares, I don't.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Are you serious?

Yes John, I'm sad to say he is serious.

[kitakaze]

You may wish to take mayaka's posts with a grain -- make that a pound -- of salt. He delights in making overstatements, miscalculations and outright errors so that others can come behind him and correct him.

In short, not all primates mate whilst howling at the top of their lungs. If BF is a real animal, it's at least plausible that it might get away with silent boinking.

EDIT: However, what is not plausible, as kitakaze has pointed out, is that the rangers and curates of a manicured public park -- even one covering hundreds of square miles -- could not possibly be ignorant of the presence of a breeding population of giant stinking wood apes which 1) show little fear of human observation or encounters, 2) need upwards of 10,000 calories per day and 3) hurl sticks and stones at humans (contradictory points, but I'm just going by the anecdotal accounts). Zoologists, botanists and bird watchers, not to mention recreational visitors, would have seen these animals on many occasions and their existence would have been verified time and again.

To be clear, Salt Fork is not hundreds of square miles. We can easily see this when we actually look at it from above...

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=salt%20fork%20state%20park&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

Salt Fork State Park is 17,229 acres. That's 70 km2 and 27.03 square miles. John thinks it is really vast because Billy Willard drove him around it in a car and they thought how easy it would be for Bigfoot to hide there.

[kitakaze]

No argument from me that park personnel would be versed in the local flora and fauna. No argument either about west of the Rockies either. I happen to have logged a great deal of time in the Adirondacks on official research and it convinced me that at least in that region don't even tease yourself with the idea of Bigfoot.

Sweaty really likes to tease himself.

However after at the end of the day no amount of sarcasm, logic, humor, understanding and logic is going to change the fact that WGBH has his sighting to come to terms with. I'm of the opinion that he'll either find what he's looking for or the search will go on until the weight of negative evidence resets the imperative from finding confirmation of what he saw one of to sometimes we encounter things that are off the radar and remain off the radar. But I think he needs the hands on approach he's engaged in.

I think it's admirable. What I really think John needs is counselling with a qualified professional therapist and to talk to experts on the Great Dismal Swamp about the possibility of a species of monster wood ape living in there.

I think that would really be grabbing the bull by the horns. I'm not sure how serious John is about doing what's right about dealing with his problems. We simply can't compete with the community of friends he has in Bigfootery. That's a club I don't see John turning away from and I don't feel interested in trying to get him to do it. That will only make him defensive and resistent. Once John starts talking to the appropriate professionals about his experience I feel he will really have started down the path to liberating himself from what I think has been a debilitating fantasy.

I of course will change my thinking on the subject when somebody gives me reliable evidence of a 10 foot giant that will come 30 feet close to men with guns. Is it unreasonable to expect that there really should be some?

[kitakaze]

We stayed in 2 cabins that sleep 6. The cabins were $180 a night. For 3 days. So that's $90 per person. Plus gas money to get there and food costs.
People came from Texas,Virginia, Wisconsin,Ohio and Indiana that I can remember.


$540 for accommodations, however much was spent on food, gas, and any flights taken. It has to be in the thousands among the twelve of you, I would think. All the expenses you guys went through and effort transporting gear to squatch in a place literally infested with Bigfooter yeehaws. I think the best thing is that you guys all got to meet each other and strengthen your friendships and community. It's too bad it wasn't in some place that could conceivably harbour monster wood apes unknown to science.

I would think omnivorous foraging like the bears do.

Oh, c'mon, John. You're a smart guy. That is just lame. It's like you didn't read what I wrote or even bother to try thinking about it. The Bigfoots are not going to be able to do what the bears do and if they do do what the bears do, bingo bango, they've been found. You yourself noted that it is a very rare occurence for a black bear to be in Salt Fork. I checked and found pretty much nothing. The only reference I could find to a black bear in Salt Fork was here:

"A pair of bald eagles nests somewhere near the lodge, a park naturalist said. Another employee told me a black bear had been spotted in the park. (http://www.dispatch.com/live/contentbe/EPIC_shim.php?story=dispatch/travel/stories/salt_fork.html&adsec=travel)"

Apparently bears that have been in the park have wound up at dumpsters. If Bigfoots are in Salt Fork, they are certainly not doing what bears are doing. You write "omnivorous foraging" casually like you haven't even thought about it. Bears have these excellent noses and they can eat all sorts of junk. You said...

"Bears are sighted rarely in SFSP. Yes, you are correct the theory is they do feed out of the dumpsters when they can. The problem is the park is not that crowded in the winter except for possibly the Lodge. So the dumpsters are not full of food."

Huh? We're talking about Ohio so it's not like any bear that somehow wandered in to the park would be farting around there in the winter. Dude, that is how the bears can survive. They go into a hardcore hyperphagia in the fall where they eat up to 20,000 kcal/day getting ready for winter torpor:

"Black bears increase their caloric intake from 8000 kcal/day in the summer to between 15,000 and 20,000 kcal/day in the fall to build up a large enough fat store to survive the the winter (Nelson, 1980)."

http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/midorcas/animalphysiology/websites/2006/mineri/page%205.htm

Any bear that finds itself in Salt Fork, particularly in the fall is going to be making a beeline for human food sources like dumpsters. The thing that will help them make that beeline is that fantastic nose. They will literally be following their noses, which are seven times more powerful than that of a dog's, towards human food. They have those great big snouts which are there for a reason. Their nasal mucosa area is about 100 times larger than in humans and they can smell a meal more than 1 km away. (http://www.bearaware.bc.ca/bears/bears_content_4c.html) Bigfoots do not have big snouts with such noses nor any of the other powerful specialized tools and adaptions for survival in North America that bears have. Any Bigfoot that is maintaining a species in Salt Fork is going to most likely have a nose with a poorly developed sense of smell like a gorilla or an orangutan (or a human) and do a lot of unguided wandering to find its food which will inevitably bring it in contact with the people who operate and manage the park. Basically the idea that they could find 12,000+ calories per day and not be found is totally insane.

Let's say you're this guy...

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_8961492354fae059f.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=14295)

(Which just happens to be an image taken in Dellroy, Carroll County, Ohio which is only one county away from Guernsey County where Salt Fork is. The image was taken by this guy (http://www.ourbigfoot.com/) and more info can be found here (http://www.cryptomundo.com/bigfoot-report/ourbigfoot/).)

And you find yourself in one of these places...

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1222

SFSP sighting location.

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1221

SFSP sighting location.

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1223

"X" marks spot where Bigfoot print was found.

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1224

From Don Keating's website this image shows the Salt Fork ranger station where his site maintains that a ranger had four Bigfoot sightings including this one literally at the window of the ranger station:

""I looked up and spotted a very large face staring in at me. It had it's face right up to the window. When I saw it, I instinctively swung at it. As a result, my fist went through the window. I had to go to the hospital and have over 100 stitches put into my hand and arm. What I observed on the face of this thing that I swung at was this...
It had a brow ridge. Its nose was not human like but it was not pointed like a bears nose would be either. The nose was 'tight and twisted up'. The eyes were black in color. The lips on the mouth were not shaped like a human but more gorilla like. The ears were small and placed near the head; not sticking out like a humans ears. The skin on the face was leather like and dark in color."

The incident took place between 7:30 and 8 p.m. in the spring of 1972.

http://www.angelfire.com/oh/ohiobigfoot/sfsp.html

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1225

Same as above.

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1226

Location of above sighting and ranger station within SFSP.

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1227

SFSP sighting location.

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1228

SFSP sighting location.

http://www.angelfire.com/oh/ohiobigfoot/sfsp.html

Bigfoot mode...

Oh man, me starving. Me need some food and me got hairy babe and littlefoot to feed. What are me going to eat? Oh boy, can you smell that? Smells like somebody's grilling some brats. Holy cow is me tummy rumbling. Oh, jeez, look over there. That naked puny one is throwing out a box of soggy donuts that got rained on into the dumpster. Hey, me not picky for that. Me need 12,000 calories a day and that will be great help.

...Arrgh! Nope. No way. Me must have will power. Me must resist. Me can not risk being shooten by boomstick of naked puny ones or have me soul stolen by scary flashing box. Me must go eat some sticks and bugs. Me hope me can eat enough sticks and bugs to keep enough strength up to throw some rocks, bang on some trees, and make some more abstract interpretive art structures in the woods tomorrow. Me wish me had super nose and some sharp claws like those smarmy, self-righteous bears. It's a hard knock life for me Bigfoot. Oh well, at least me have me stick.

1) What do these ABS questions and attacks have to do with a thread about "seeing Bigfoot"?

2) Well, I will play along, I guess. The ABS does subscribe to the theory that Salt Fork could possibly be a area of Bigfoot activity. Eric saw something, but by his own admission, did not get a good look.

3) The sightings have dropped off significantly because of the increased human activity in the park.


1) It's about people seeing Bigfoots and the reasons for ABS showing up in Salt Fork where they think they might have seen Bigfoot in the form of eyeshine.

2) Eric said he saw a conical-shaped head and shoulders 4 to 5 feet wide. What did he see if not a Bigfoot? You guys did take the possibility that he really did see a Bigfoot there to bring members of the ABS from all over the country to do their first expedition there. If it was me I would say that Eric and Mike were bumbling in the woods and freaking themselves out and if anyone disagreed and wanted me to spend hard-earned money to go to Salt Fork and join the Bigfooter gong show, I'd tell them to have a nice trip.

That's just me and anyone who thinks Eric Altman's sighting was a good justification to come to the handicapped picnic area of Salt Fork can scrutinize his story for themselves...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMc_hEFBwOI

We can always check what's on the video from the cameras strapped on trees around the park in the Sasquatch Triangle...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXQV87cOJrE

A-ha... Deer, deer, deer.... guy in camo with gun... deer... guy with gun.. Ooo! Is that Bigfoot? Oops, dear again.

3) What kind of factual verification can you offer to verify your claim that "sightings have dropped off significantly because of the increased human activity in the park"? It's really easy to just write but can you back that up with facts? You know, something like a footer database showing a recent big drop-off in SFSP sighting.

You asked me about more Bigfoot reports from the area of NC. So I pointed it out when I saw it. That's all. Don't read more into it then that. For someone who professes the scientific methods, you sure jump to conclusions.


Am I jumpy? I don't think so. Are you retracting the 10 ft Bigfoot in NC with the Bigfoot coming close to armed humans sighting as being helpful in supporting your 9 x 6ft Bigfoot in NC coming close to armed human sighting?

By all means, be my guest.

"I often get the sense with Bigfoot enthusiasts that they've become so distracted by the community aspects of their sub-culture that they somewhere along the way decided not to think things through. It's almost like they kind of know on some fundamental level that Bigfoot doesn't really exist and allow themselves to just continue playing Woods & Wildmen for the fun of it. I don't think they really think of Bigfoot as being an actual real animal. It's basically like some figure or manifestation of a philosophy they have. It's the pursuit of a mystery and things don't need to really make sense because it's fun."

What a crock of Sh#t this is.


I find it strange that I find myself pointing out to a moderator and now administrator of an internet forum (SFB) about being mindful of the MA of the board they are posting on. While cursing is allowed at your board, it is not allowed here at the JREF, especially stepping around the autocensor. I don't particularly care at all if you do but I just thought you should know that for future refence and avoid getting mod warnings.

Anyway, I disagree. Very few Bigfoot enthusiasts seem to employ thinking that they actually truly consider Bigfoot to be a real animal. It's like they allow for Bigfoot to behave in a way that no animal possibly could just to maintain the suspension of disbelief. It's like they will do mental gymnastics to do it if necessary but more often then not they'll just opt to be lazy thinkers and say something like "they probably do it just like a bear does".

1) How would you know any facts about SFSP? Have you been there? Define highly used. Define undetected. Are you not here discussing reported sightings in SFSP? Unless you have spoken to the park staff, you have no idea what they know.

2) I can mentally work it out fine,thanks. The park and surrounding areas could be used as a habitat for this undiscovered animal.

1) That's like a joke or something, right? I can't know any facts about the SFSP without having been there? You mean the following websites fill my office with lies?:

Ohio Department of Natural Resources Salt Fork State Park information website (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/tabid/785/default.aspx)

ODNR Division of Wildlife - Salt Fork Wildlife Area information website (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/wild_resourcessubhomepage/WildlifeAreaMapsLandingPage/SoutheastOhioWildlifeAreaMaps/SaltForkWildlifeArea/tabid/19828/Default.aspx)

You mean I can not ascertain any valuable knowledge regarding the possibility of Bigfoot being in the SFSP by looking directly at it via satellite imaging with the ability to zoom in so close anywhere I want so as to be able to make out individual cars and trees?:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=salt%20fork%20state%20park&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

And this is coming from a guy who has been living under the oppression of PTSD from an experience of a sighting that may or may not have happened for over 27 years without ever having talked to an wildlife and environment experts from the area where it happened?

These are yes/no questions, BTW. Kind of like did you just write something horrendously silly and poorly thought? Yes. Yes, you did.

2) Then I ask you to proceed to mentally work it out for me. Please go ahead and explain exactly how "the park and surrounding areas could be used as a habitat for this undiscovered animal" without being identified by science.

For your reference...

Highly used: Here you go...

Activity Facilities Quantity
Resource Land, acres 17229
Water, acres 2952
Activities Fishing yes
Hunting yes
Hiking Trail, miles 14
Bridle Trails, miles 12
Picnicking yes
Picnic Shelters 0
Swimming Beach, feet 2500
Beach Concession yes
Nature Center yes
Summer Nature Programs yes
Boating Boat Rental yes
Boating Limits UNL
Fuel For Sale yes
Seasonal Dock Rental 470
Launch Ramps 10
Winter Snowmobiling yes
Sledding yes
Ice Skating yes
Ice Fishing yes
Ice Boating yes
Cross-Country Skiing yes
Ice Fishing yes
Facilities Family Cottages 54
Lodge Rooms 148
Restaurant yes
Golf Course holes 18
Tennis yes
Game Room yes
Indoor Swimming Pool yes
Outdoor Swimming Pool yes
Camping Non-Electric Campsites 0
Campsites with Elec. 192
Full Service Campsites 20
Pets Permitted yes
Campground Beach yes
Showers yes
Flush Toilets yes
Dumpstation yes
Group Camp, capacity 150
Horsemen Campsites 20
Rent-A-Campsites 3

Undetected: Unconfirmed, unverified, unknown. Known factually beyond the beliefs of Bigfoot enthusiast park visitors like Don Keating whom the park can thank for singlehandedly increasing park visitation and increased profits with large yearly seminars (http://jeffc.me/21st-annual-ohio-bigfoot-conference). Potentially aggressive monster wood apes are unconfirmed as maintaining a breeding population with in SFSP by officials and staff. What threat this represents to park visitors remains unassessed.

1) How would you know this about the substrate and it's ability to hold dermals? You were there?

2) What is your expertise regarding tracks and track casting? You use the skill a lot in the Tokyo night clubs?

1) I'm looking right at a guy kneeling in the grass and leaves with a magnifiying glass saying he found dermals and then oops, proceeds to not be able to find what he was looking at for several minutes. I am fairly certain we are not looking at any kind of reliable evidence of Bigfoot in SFSP.

2) I don't need any experience looking at tracks when I am DJing in Tokyo night clubs, just playing them.;)

I do find it just a little weird that you are questioning my experience in the woods. Especially when you know where I am know (which is where I grew up). I'm not trying to be mean, it's just you yourself admit your being inexperienced. I'm sure you haven't forgotten the Vancouver Island pictures I shared. I have plenty of experience looking at animal tracks of all kinds. I only get nervous when I see bear or cougar tracks. Half of all fatal cougar attacks on humans have been on this island, don't you know? I do not get nervous when I see imprints such as these from SFSP:

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1229

I don't know how anyone looks at something like that and thinks it's real without their head imploding.

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1230

That's ketchup, you see. Ketchup. How interestingly it has been so artfully placed.

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1231

You see, Bigfoot, having connections to UFO's, has the ability to just simply vapourize any vegetation beneath its foot.

How silly of me to doubt these people... :rolleyes:

[LONGTABBER PE]

I gotta admit- those pictures are obvious frauds

[RayG]

It's possible, but seeing is believing.


Seeing + believing does not automatically equal truth.

RayG

[WGBH]

I gotta admit- those pictures are obvious frauds

I agree. But these pictures are not being pushed by myself or any of my affiliated groups as being legit.

[WGBH]

Seeing + believing does not automatically equal truth.

RayG

Please clarify this statement. Are you infering that I am a liar Ray?

[kitakaze]

Please clarify this statement. Are you infering that I am a liar Ray?

Easy now. I think that's the over-defensiveness you've picked up along the way. Ray simply means having seen something and believe without question to be what you thought you saw does not mean that is the actual truth. You know, like big, freaky spiders and Reptoids. He's not insinuating you are a liar at all but rather simply that it has not been ruled out that you were mistaken. Know what I mean?

[WGBH]

Kitakaze,

I am finished with this discussion with you.When the insults begin against myself and my organizations,(and I knew it only a matter of time), the conversation ends. When you finish searching youtube for silly videos, grow up and stop practicing the junk internet science you accuse myself and others of using, look me up. Until then I wish you good health and good life.

If anyone else has questions regarding me personally or my encounter I will be more then happy to answer.

[Cainkane1]

Why avoid contact with humans? Gorillas don't, chimpanzees don't, Baboons don't so why Sasquatch? If this hugh hairy walking upright creature does exist and if it were discovered it would probably be the best thing that ever happened to it. It would be protected and studied. It would be fed and cared for. Its habitat would be protected and there would be many other perks from associating with humans.

I've seen park rangers feeding wolves so why not drop some fruit and nuts on Sasquatch? Medical care man I better quit talking.

[kitakaze]

Kitakaze,

I am finished with this discussion with you.When the insults begin against myself and my organizations,(and I knew it only a matter of time), the conversation ends. When you finish searching youtube for silly videos, grow up and stop practicing the junk internet science you accuse myself and others of using, look me up. Until then I wish you good health and good life.

If anyone else has questions regarding me personally or my encounter I will be more then happy to answer.

That's unfortunate and I think you're over-reacting but that's your prerogative. I don't think I've insulted you or your Bigfoot enthusiast club in anyway. I have on numerous occasions given you praise,defended you, and your friends. I think the idea of going squatching in Salt Fork is silly but I think you're big enough to handle a debate like that. Maybe you guys had more or less information than I do. It's not impossible. If you'd like an out from the discussion or it simply irritates you, I can understand but please don't make it seem like I'm being harsh or personal. That's not my style. I don't think I've said anything to you that is unreasonable or any rational thinking person would not think of under the given circumstances. Please point out where I have, and I will apologize.

Or you can bail. Your choice.

ETA: And please point out my junk internet science. I don't like using bad information and am always grateful to anyone who can help me get rid of it.

[Drewbot]

If anyone else has questions regarding me personally or my encounter I will be more then happy to answer.


Have you told a doctor about your Bigfoot encounter?

What did he/she say when you told them about bigfoot?

Are you treated for Depression?

When did this treatment start? Were you treated before the bigfoot encounter?

[WGBH]

Why avoid contact with humans? Gorillas don't, chimpanzees don't, Baboons don't so why Sasquatch? If this hugh hairy walking upright creature does exist and if it were discovered it would probably be the best thing that ever happened to it. It would be protected and studied. It would be fed and cared for. Its habitat would be protected and there would be many other perks from associating with humans.

I've seen park rangers feeding wolves so why not drop some fruit and nuts on Sasquatch? Medical care man I better quit talking.

If you feel like opening that can of worms, and I really don't, I would sugest you google Bigfoot Habituation cases. Then start a different thread about it.

[WGBH]

Have you told a doctor about your Bigfoot encounter?

What did he/she say when you told them about bigfoot?

No, I only said I was having problems sleeping.

Are you treated for Depression?

No

When did this treatment start?

If you mean when did I start using valium to help me sleep, I think it was around last Christmas (08). I only use it when absolutely neccessary.

Were you treated before the bigfoot encounter?



No, I had no health issues when I was 17. I was a young healthy state and college level athlete. Not a fat old man like I am now. :D

[Drewbot]

No, I had no health issues when I was 17. I was a young healthy state and college level athlete. Not a fat old man like I am now. :D

Is this doctor you have talked to, either a psychiatrist or a psychologist?

If not, have you considered talking to one, and telling them about the Bigfoot encounter? Perhaps they would be able to offer you a solution, or explanation you'd be more willing to accept.

[WGBH]

Is this doctor you have talked to, either a psychiatrist or a psychologist?

No

If not, have you considered talking to one, and telling them about the Bigfoot encounter? Perhaps they would be able to offer you a solution, or explanation you'd be more willing to accept.

Considered it yes, followed through no. I am not lookin for an explanation, just rest.

[makaya325]

Yes John, I'm sad to say he is serious.

Come on Long. Since BF is imaginary, why cant i turn him into a ninja?:(

[makaya325]

Kitakaze,

I am finished with this discussion with you.When the insults begin against myself and my organizations,(and I knew it only a matter of time), the conversation ends. When you finish searching youtube for silly videos, grow up and stop practicing the junk internet science you accuse myself and others of using, look me up. Until then I wish you good health and good life.

If anyone else has questions regarding me personally or my encounter I will be more then happy to answer.

WGHB, did you expect to come in here and think people would believe you really did see a bf, which currently is non-existent and breaks many rules of nature, instead of hallucinations or misidentifications, both well known phenomona studied and documented. If you know what you saw, then it isnt worth getting angry because Kitz doesnt accept your explanation for your sighting. You just need to provide better evidence my friend.

[WGBH]

WGHB, did you expect to come in here and think people would believe you really did see a bf, which currently is non-existent and breaks many rules of nature, instead of hallucinations or misidentifications, both well known phenomona studied and documented.

No, I hoped people would act civil.

If you know what you saw, then it isnt worth getting angry because Kitz doesnt accept your explanation for your sighting. You just need to provide better evidence my friend.

I do know what I saw. I am not angry that he does not believe what I saw, I just have better things to do then be insulted. I am trying to get evidence, but you are making the error of thinking I am trying to get it for you.

[Vortigern99]

WGBH, you appear to be caught up in kit's opinion that belief in BF, especially in this manicured park, is "silly" and "insane". You're hypersensitive to insult and derogation. As a result, you're missing the line of logic and reasoning that has led him to the conclusion that these beliefs are "silly". You're not accepting his valid points that bears have a variety of physiological tools to help them acquire nutrition, and that a giant primate, lacking these features, cannot realistically obtain the caloric intake required to fuel its body throughout the year. No scat. No bones. No hair. No independently verified sightings. This after 5 decades of an avid, nationwide search by hundreds if not thousands of individuals, year after year after year. Someone calling the belief "silly" is an understatement. If it offends you you may wish to consider examining the line of reasoning which led to the insult, to see if the term has any merit.

[makaya325]

I do know what I saw. I am not angry that he does not believe what I saw, I just have better things to do then be insulted. I am trying to get evidence, but you are making the error of thinking I am trying to get it for you.

Why do you pick the most unlikely explanation (Bigfoot) over more plausible explanations that actually exist?

[WGBH]

WGBH, you appear to be caught up in kit's opinion that belief in BF, especially in this manicured park, is "silly" and "insane". You're hypersensitive to insult and derogation. As a result, you're missing the line of logic and reasoning that has led him to the conclusion that these beliefs are "silly". You're not accepting his valid points that bears have a variety of physiological tools to help them acquire nutrition, and that a giant primate, lacking these features, cannot realistically obtain the caloric intake required to fuel its body throughout the year. No scat. No bones. No hair. No independently verified sightings. This after 5 decades of an avid, nationwide search by hundreds if not thousands of individuals, year after year after year. Someone calling the belief "silly" is an understatement. If it offends you you may wish to consider examining the line of reasoning which led to the insult, to see if the term has any merit.

I am not hypersensitive to it Vort. I just dont care. I don't have listen to the insults. I understand completely the ideas he and you are putting out there. You are just going about it differently.

[makaya325]

I am not hypersensitive to it Vort. I just dont care. I don't have listen to the insults. I understand completely the ideas he and you are putting out there. You are just going about it differently.

You dont get mad when, over at the bff, members accept your sighting as genuine, yet you get mad over here when people, while still considering bigfoot, think that your sighting was unlikely to be of a bigfoot.

[WGBH]

You dont get mad when, over at the bff, members accept your sighting as genuine, yet you get mad over here when people, while still considering bigfoot, think that your sighting was unlikely to be of a bigfoot.

Members at the BFF accept my sighting?:jaw-dropp Have you been reading this thread at all?

[makaya325]

Members at the BFF accept my sighting?:jaw-dropp Have you been reading this thread at all?

What I meant to say was that Most Johnny-box-of-rocks Critical thinkers over at the BFF accept your sighting.

[kitakaze]

Considered it yes, followed through no. I am not lookin for an explanation, just rest.

John, I can't help but be confused by this statement when trying to reconcile it with your past statements:

Before I get put up on the gallows, am I the only one here who will admit to a sighting?

I will answer serious questions. I will not answer insulting questions or respond to insults in general. If you are really interested about my encounter that is fine, but I am not here for your entertainment. I am here hoping for answers and ideas, hopefully you are too.

Kit,

I totally agree with what you said. It is hard to wrap ones mind around this. I have no explanation for what I saw. But I did see it. Who says it lives in the swamp? Maybe it was just passing through? The area has tons of deer and other wildlife. I am not an outdoors man. I am just now learning about the woods. I do not know what the heck happened to me. But I hope to understand it someday.

Everyone,

No, I do not feel lucky about what happened to me. I was thrust into this against my will. I tried for 25 years to not talk about it. If I could make it go away, I would do so without a second thought. You think I like being attacked and ridiculed? You think I like being called a liar or a lunatic? I am in this only for answers.

What are the questions you have for which you seek answers?

To know more verifiable information about the animal I witnessed. And to be honest, a little vindication would be nice also.

So one of your questions is not, "Did I see a Bigfoot?"

Absolutely not.

I have thought about the theory that I might have had some type of seizure. My only question would be, Why only then? I have never had another one BEFORE or SINCE that day. But who knows? maybe

So, here I am. I do not care who helps me or gives me good ideas.Bigfoot believers OR skeptics. I just want answers period.

Well, let's review shall we. I am either a daydreamer,a hallucinator, a nut case, a liar, or I saw an undocumented animal. If it were you, which would you want to chose?

The most important thing I need to know about Bigfoot is, does it exist. I will leave the rest to people that care about such things.

Are you no person at all if you walk out with no hat? You feel you must choose a hat?

Yes, I need to know the answer.

No, I have not seen anything in the past year. Experienced some sounds, smells and prints.Call that what you want. We only had activity worth mentioning ONCE. Right now I am not searching the woods for answers. I am following people around and getting comfortable. I am not looking for Bigfoot.

Did I smell swamp gas and hallucinate? I would answer that the same way I have the other theory's submitted. Anything is possible, but I find it unlikely. I will admit that it is more likely then a sleep or brain disorder. I guess this is another thing I ask the park officials if I can ever get down there. We are getting swamped (pun intended) at work and it is hard for me to get away.

Many of the things you've written above seem contradictory to me. You aren't looking for answers/you are only looking for answers. You need some answers/you don't care about answers. You undeniably saw Bigfoot/it's possible you were wrong.

You say you are willing to consider other ideas but then you show that you are quite unwilling to consider other ideas. You consider the 9 x 6 ft monster wood ape to be the simplest answer and show no hope of revising the stance when people give you proof that people can strongly believe they experienced something vividly that they did not. You are provided with alternative explanations which you show interest in and when asked to provide some silver bullet against them, you provide an argument that isn't supported by the facts and show no hope of revising your thinking.

As I said before, I've explored two ways to approach your experience. One is to proceed under the premise that you did not see what you think you saw because 9 x 6 ft monster wood apes larger than grizzly bears do not exist in the swamps of NC and that one of the known human phenomena that can lead to faulty perceptions need to be explored. It was something that while indicating some superficial willingness to consider, you had already decided from the outset was unacceptable. It's as if any words you write in consideration are simply going through the motions of being open to possibilities but in actuality you've completely closed your mind to any human phenomena explanation.

Hmmm... Anything is possible but it seems unlikely to me.

It's like there's just this major cognitive dissonance going on making this huge misfire happen. Something that happened in 1982 that you didn't report until 1998 and you said you were probably drunk when you did it is a scenario that doesn't lend itself to arguments against the infallibility of human memory and perception. It beeing told in a highly expanded version later after becoming involved with Bigfoot enthusiasts doesn't help either.

The other way I explored was to proceed under the premise that you did see what you thought you saw and to try and work out a functioning model for how that can be made to reconcile with reality. That's where the arguments for what can realistically be expected to exist in certain environments come in. You may not think it is silly for a species of just truly immense upright mammals to be in places like Salt Fork or sharing the woods with hunters in NC uncatalogued by science but there are many perfectly valid reasons to think the idea to be highly implausible if not impossible.

I think for the benefit of your future discussions here things need to be made totally clear about the limitations of your open-mindedness. If you are only willing to superficially consider human phenomena, then people here should get the forthrightness from you to let them know any real consideration of anything other than "I saw what I saw. I know what I saw and I saw Bigfoot." At least that way they have some idea of what they're up against and can properly consider whether or not it's worth the effort to engage you on the posibility of you being mistaken about what you think you saw.

[WGBH]

I am not looking for an explanation, just rest.
Kit,

You could have saved yourself a ton of quoting. I was talking about explanations from a Doctor about my Bigfoot encounter, as Drew asked. The thousand things you quoted about my looking for answers were from field work and yes even research suggestions here. It had nothing to do with seeing a Doctor about my sleep problems.

I am not looking for a Doctor to explain what happened to me. Because, no matter if I am crazy, day dreaming, or I really saw a Bigfoot. It would all be conjecture. I would be looking for help in dealing with the after effects, not the sighting.

[kitakaze]

I am not hypersensitive to it Vort. I just dont care. I don't have listen to the insults. I understand completely the ideas he and you are putting out there. You are just going about it differently.

I somewhat disagree with this and will provide what I think is the evidence to the contrary. I don't think "hypersensitive" is the right word. I think it would be better to say you are sensitive and sometimes over-defensive based upon past experiences unrelated to this board.

Let's review. Before we got into this discussion in this thread you said the following about the prospect of being questioned by members here:

Sure, I will answer your questions. Just remember that there are other possible witnesses who may be watching. I don't care if you are rough on me, I will answer you. I do worry about the others though. So try not to scare them away.

So we see there the expression of having a good stiff upper lip and a stoic resolve. Sounds like a guy who an handle the environment he's in and isn't afraid to get in the mix. Let's see how things actually turned out...

No I have no evidence. We were only having a discussion. Well, I seem to have worn out my welcome. It happens a lot. It was nice talking to a few of you.

Thanks

What? So soon? He's outta he? Why? What happened? Ohhh... right. Xblade and dafydd expressed the inevitable idea that John might not be telling the complete truth about what he saw. That's two. Two people expressing natural doubt was all it took at the immediate outset of the discussion to send John packing.

But he did not stay gone. People like myself, mikeyx, longtabber, William Parcher, and many others were defending him and offering words of support. John decided not to leave and continued the discussion. And then this happened...

Since the topic has turned from my encounter, to why I was banned from the BFF. There is no more need for me here. Ask the people at the BFF why, if you need to know. Then believe them if you want to. I really do not care.

Goodnight

Two more guys made John get up from the table and head for the door again (though it was really just one). Black Dog was expressing skepticism over the reason John said he was tossed from the BFF and that if he wasn't being accurate about that, there was the possibility that he wasn't being accurate about his sighting, as well. Rockinkt had his own opinion that John misremembered something but expressed that BD's opinion shouldn't be unduly dismissed.

I tried to explain to John what I thought was the reasoning for that and while offering support encouraged him not to take it to personally. Boom - he went for the door. Then on this page we have the following...

Please clarify this statement. Are you infering that I am a liar Ray?

Say what? Liar? Does John have no idea who RayG is? RayG will tell you that you are a liar if he thinks so. In a way I thought was very clear Ray said that seeing something and believing it to be something does not equate that it is fact actually what you think you saw. What I think is kneejerk defensiveness from John made him suspect Ray was calling him a liar. I think he's just had a rough time apparently in places like the BFF so he easily thinks people will call him liars here. I've seen basically a whopping total of 3 people who intimated that John might not be telling the truth. The overwhelming reception of him here has been completely supportive and with people genuinely wanting to offer assistance.

And here is John bailing from a lively yet civil debate with me more centered on whether or not there might be Bigfoots in Salt Fork...

Kitakaze,

I am finished with this discussion with you.When the insults begin against myself and my organizations,(and I knew it only a matter of time), the conversation ends. When you finish searching youtube for silly videos, grow up and stop practicing the junk internet science you accuse myself and others of using, look me up. Until then I wish you good health and good life.

If anyone else has questions regarding me personally or my encounter I will be more then happy to answer.

I haven't seen any attempt to qualify the accusation I am being harsh and personal. I see him saying that I am being insulting but when I look I see many compliments to John and words of support for him and his peers. I completely disagree with their reasonings on certain subjects and make what I think is a good effort to illustrate exactly why I think so and where I'm coming from. Yeah, I think it's silly to think there are Bigfoots in Salt Fork and I've given many thus far unrefuted reasons to think so.

Saying I think it is silly, insane, and impossible for there to be Bigfoots in SFSP is a conclusion I have reached after assessing the facts available to me. I have made it perfectly clear that either myself or John and his group of friends may not have all the facts. I could be wrong. John has made the intimation that I can't really know anything about Salt Fork without actually having been there myself (which is odd when he refutes the observations of people who have been there much more than he has). I welcome the attempt to show that. If I'm wrong, I revise. That is what a skeptic does. I don't think John and the ABS were drivelling idiots for squatching in Salt Fork. By John's own admission there were other factors in play that were out of there control. That and the fact that this new Bigfoot enthusiast club was committed to getting together and by their reasonings SFSP was not an unreasonable place for them to do it. I would think the ABS collectively was deeply stupid if they returned to SFSP with the facts as I know them. If there are more pertinent facts in support of Bigfoots in SFSP, I would certainly be open to them and change my stance based on them.

John tells me I am criticizing others for junk internet science while employing it myself. I want to know where I do this so I can fix it. I don't think I've done it but I'm open to being proven wrong. I think John is maybe wound up a bit tight and needs to employ a bit more of that stoicism he showed in that first quote above. I think if John remembers that people don't need to be supportive of Bigfoot to be supportive of him and his search for answers and peace of mind, he won't be so quick to walk away from the discussions.

[kitakaze]

Kit,

You could have saved yourself a ton of quoting. I was talking about explanations from a Doctor about my Bigfoot encounter, as Drew asked. The thousand things you quoted about my looking for answers were from field work and yes even research suggestions here. It had nothing to do with seeing a Doctor about my sleep problems.

I am not looking for a Doctor to explain what happened to me. Because, no matter if I am crazy, day dreaming, or I really saw a Bigfoot. It would all be conjecture. I would be looking for help in dealing with the after effects, not the sighting.

Oh noes... Woops, did I have some kind of brainfart? So you would seek professional help to deal with the effects of PTSD but you wouldn't seriously consider the possibility that they could show you that your memory was distorted? OK, I understand.

I am going to switch focus back from trying to get you to reconsider the sensibility of thinking Bigfoot could be hiding a species in SFSP to approaching your experience as a memory and do so in a way that is not insulting to you. It would really help me if we could keep in mind that I don't think you are an idiot or that your Bigfoot group is a bunch of idiots. I don't want to have to sugarcoat everything I say because if I do, I'll feel like I'm talking to Melissa (which can be a chore when she makes up half of what you're saying). I really want you to seek professional help and to talk to experts in NC but maybe we can see what conjecture can bear out.

[RayG]

Please clarify this statement. Are you infering that I am a liar Ray?

Not in the least. I'm saying the brain interprets things that the eyes see. Sometimes it gets them right, sometimes it doesn't. That's why optical illusions work.

Just because we see something, and think it to be one thing, doesn't mean it is. I once had an instance while driving where a horse-sized white goat ran across the road in front of my moving vehicle. There was no goat. There was no horse. What my tired brain interpreted was a white tissue in the corner of the dash that was blowing in the breeze.

On another occasion, while sitting in the passenger seat of a moving vehicle, I saw up ahead, a large bipedal, dark figure walking along the side of the road. It turned out to be a tree-like bush, but had our vehicle turned off the road prior to getting to the object, I would have thought it was a large human walking along the side of the road. Someone with more romantic thoughts might have chalked it up to a bigfoot sighting had they not driven right past it.

In both instances my brain was fooled into thinking one thing, when in fact, that's not the thing my brain thought it was.

So... in both these instances, seeing + believing did not equate to the truth.

Hope that clarified.

I would also urge you seek professional help in dealing with the nightmares and unreasonable fear. Professionals are there to help not make fun of you, and what you have described is nothing to be ashamed of.

RayG

[RayG]

WGBH, I just wanted to illustrate another example of eyewitness accounts that were incorrect.

Remember the London subway rider (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2005/07/22/london-050722.html) that was killed by London police a few years ago because they were convinced he was a terrorist? Eyewitness accounts of the incident were quite unreliable:

Some said he was Asian - he was Brazilian
Some said he jumped over the subway turnstile - he went through the gate in a normal fashion
Some said he was wearing a winter coat - it was a denim jacket
Some said he was wearing a bomb with wire hanging down from it - he was not
Some said he tripped and fell getting on the train - the police caused him to fall
Some said the police challenged/warned him prior to shots being fired - they did not
Some said passengers were told to get off the train prior to the shooting - they were not
Some said he was shot 4, 5, 6, 8 or 11 times (actually 11 in total)

How could both police and eyewitnesses be so mistaken? Surely the police are cool-headed, better trained, and have greater observational skills than regular civilians? Surely the witnesses were credible people, well-educated, not on drugs, not blind, not lying, and not mentally challenged? Why were these mistakes made?

Because our memories and perceptions are not perfect.

RayG

[Tricky]

A few bickery off-topicky posts sent to AAH. Please don't be bickery and off-topicky.

[ElectricVoodoo]

You dont get mad when, over at the bff, members accept your sighting as genuine, yet you get mad over here when people, while still considering bigfoot, think that your sighting was unlikely to be of a bigfoot.

If you presented your thoughts in a clear and coherent manner perhaps there would be no frustration. You talk daggers in one liners.

[kitakaze]

A few bickery off-topicky posts sent to AAH. Please don't be bickery and off-topicky.

Needed more cat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAknbzPVml8&feature=related).

(that thing that went to that place, I mean)

So, John, how long after you had the original experience did you start having the nightmares?

When would you say it was the worst?

[makaya325]

WGBH, I just wanted to illustrate another example of eyewitness accounts that were incorrect.

Remember the London subway rider (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2005/07/22/london-050722.html) that was killed by London police a few years ago because they were convinced he was a terrorist? Eyewitness accounts of the incident were quite unreliable:

Some said he was Asian - he was Brazilian
Some said he jumped over the subway turnstile - he went through the gate in a normal fashion
Some said he was wearing a winter coat - it was a denim jacket
Some said he was wearing a bomb with wire hanging down from it - he was not
Some said he tripped and fell getting on the train - the police caused him to fall
Some said the police challenged/warned him prior to shots being fired - they did not
Some said passengers were told to get off the train prior to the shooting - they were not
Some said he was shot 4, 5, 6, 8 or 11 times (actually 11 in total)

How could both police and eyewitnesses be so mistaken? Surely the police are cool-headed, better trained, and have greater observational skills than regular civilians? Surely the witnesses were credible people, well-educated, not on drugs, not blind, not lying, and not mentally challenged? Why were these mistakes made?

Because our memories and perceptions are not perfect.

RayG


Ray, for every Suspect being mistaken, how many are correctly identified? Police and eyewitnesses are correct many times on the news. Homo sapiens are not that dumb. It seems like you are trying to use ONE SPECIFIC case to point out unreliability concerning testimony. Yes, no one is perfect, but we are not to be underestimated concerning what we see. during Some of the times we report something, we are dead on.

[I Am He]

Same ole flip flop I see, huh...... Mak.





I Am He

[desertgal]

Ray, for every Suspect being mistaken, how many are correctly identified? Police and eyewitnesses are correct many times on the news. Homo sapiens are not that dumb.

There you go again, offering assumption as fact. Any cop can tell you, and I know Longtabber will agree, that eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable. Even immediately following a crime, when the memory should be freshest, eyewitnesses can be mistaken about weight, height, hair color, eye color, build, clothing, shoes, actions, statements, lighting, weather, etc. There are a multitude of factors that affect observation and memory. Do a little research, and see how many people have been mistakenly identified in a lineup, or wrongfully accused based on eyewitness accounts. For that matter, look and see how many times 20 different witnesses will offer 20 completely different accounts of the same event. It's not a matter of being dumb. Human memory is supremely fallible, and humans can be decidedly inaccurate in their observations-especially under stress.

Police are "more accurate on the news" in what way? In relating details of a crime? Of course they are. They don't rely solely on eyewitness accounts. It's called "evidence" and it helps them piece the details of the crime together.

"Some of the time" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

[makaya325]

There you go again, offering assumption as fact. Any cop can tell you, and I know Longtabber will agree, that eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable. Even immediately following a crime, when the memory should be freshest, eyewitnesses can be mistaken about weight, height, hair color, eye color, build, clothing, shoes, actions, statements, lighting, weather, etc. There are a multitude of factors that affect observation and memory. Do a little research, and see how many people have been mistakenly identified in a lineup, or wrongfully accused based on eyewitness accounts. For that matter, look and see how many times 20 different witnesses will offer 20 completely different accounts of the same event. It's not a matter of being dumb. Human memory is supremely fallible, and humans can be decidedly inaccurate in their observations-especially under stress.

Police are "more accurate on the news" in what way? In relating details of a crime? Of course they are. They don't rely solely on eyewitness accounts. It's called "evidence" and it helps them piece the details of the crime together.

"Some of the time" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

You are trying to point out few cases to make people look unreliable, when in fact there are times where eyewitnesses alone have been accurate.

[desertgal]

You are trying to point out few cases to make people look unreliable, when in fact there are times where eyewitnesses alone have been accurate.

I didn't say there weren't.

You said one case does not prove that eyewitness accounts are unreliable. You said human beings are not to be underestimated about what they see. You are wrong.

I said that eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable. I didn't cite any cases.

Try reading. Try learning. The Internet is for more than trolling message boards.

The Unreliability of Eyewitness Identifications (http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20010516.html)

Eyewitness Identification: Cognitive Aspects (http://psy.ucsd.edu/~hflowe/eyepsych.htm)

That is just a small dosage of 45,500 results which indicate that eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable:

Google Search: reliability of eyewitness accounts (http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS263&=&q=reliability+of+eyewitness+accounts&aq=2&oq=reliability+of+eye).

Show some information that backs up your assertions that human beings "are not to be underestimated about what they see", and that the unreliability of eyewitness accounts is limited to a few cases. Folks here are interested in critical thinking, not baseless assumptions and anecdotes you make up as you go along.

[makaya325]

I didn't say there weren't.

You said one case does not prove that eyewitness accounts are unreliable. You said human beings are not to be underestimated about what they see. You are wrong.

I said that eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable. I didn't cite any cases.

Try reading. Try learning. The Internet is for more than trolling message boards.

The Unreliability of Eyewitness Identifications (http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20010516.html)

Eyewitness Identification: Cognitive Aspects (http://psy.ucsd.edu/~hflowe/eyepsych.htm)

That is just a small dosage of 45,500 results which indicate that eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable:

Google Search: reliability of eyewitness accounts (http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS263&=&q=reliability+of+eyewitness+accounts&aq=2&oq=reliability+of+eye).

Show some information that backs up your assertions that human beings "are not to be underestimated about what they see", and that the unreliability of eyewitness accounts is limited to a few cases. Folks here are interested in critical thinking, not baseless assumptions and anecdotes you make up as you go along.

I was assuming that it is viewed that, since eyewitnesses are not always perfect, that they must be wrong about things that lack evidence. Instead of dismissing them, you should be looking to see if their is any consistency in sightings in specific geographical regions, in certain parts of the year, and how frequent they occur. That, my friend, is not due to eyewitness unreliability, but that of an animals ecological niche, even thought bigfoot reports dont share this.

[makaya325]

Rayg's terrorist analogy is useless. One thing all of the witnesses had in common is that they ALL identified him as a HUMAN, not a bear, wolf, or otter, so that shows people are good at identifying what species is what. People know the difference between a ghillie suit and a 9ft tall behemoth.

[ElectricVoodoo]

WGBH,

I have some honest questions for you.

You expressed much confidence that the creature you saw was nine feet tall by six feet wide (at the shoulders).

Do you stand firmly behind this, or are you (even somewhat) doubting the estimated measurement's accuracy based upon what a recreation of this creature might look like?

Furthermore, and forgive me if this has been answered, but where did the six foot shoulder estimate originate from and how did you come to this?

Do you stick by the estimated height of nine feet and the estimated shoulder width at six feet?

[makaya325]

Well, if WGBH saw something that required looking up at, im guessing it was quite large?

[desertgal]

I was assuming that it is viewed that, since eyewitnesses are not always perfect, that they must be wrong about things that lack evidence.

Your reasoning has now descended into the inane.

If there is no evidence to support eyewitness testimony, it cannot be proven to be either right or wrong. It is merely an anecdote, and has no value without evidence to support it.

Instead of dismissing them

I haven't. Without evidence to support them, they remain anecdotes. Neither dismissed nor valuable.

You should be looking to see if their is any consistency in sightings in specific geographical regions, in certain parts of the year, and how frequent they occur. That, my friend, is not due to eyewitness unreliability, but that of an animals ecological niche, even thought bigfoot reports dont share this.

I'm not your friend. And you are simply babbling now.

I presented evidence to back up my statement that eyewitness testimony can be notoriously unreliable. I have met my burden of proof. You have not. Your claim is that eyewitness testimony is more often reliable than not. Prove your claim. Or, at least, back up your claim. Or back up a claim.

[desertgal]

Rayg's terrorist analogy is useless. One thing all of the witnesses had in common is that they ALL identified him as a HUMAN, not a bear, wolf, or otter, so that shows people are good at identifying what species is what. People know the difference between a ghillie suit and a 9ft tall behemoth.

Longtabber, if you see this, would you explain to genius here what is wrong with his statement? I realize he's forgotten more about investigating than you will ever know, but it might be worth a try. ;)

[desertgal]

Rayg's terrorist analogy is useless. One thing all of the witnesses had in common is that they ALL identified him as a HUMAN, not a bear, wolf, or otter, so that shows people are good at identifying what species is what. People know the difference between a ghillie suit and a 9ft tall behemoth.

I see. So, by that reasoning, at least some of the eyewitness accounts of Bigfoot must be true. So, you do believe in Bigfoot.

[tsig]

I see. So, by that reasoning, at least some of the eyewitness accounts of Bigfoot must be true. So, you do believe in Bigfoot.

It seems to depend on which hand is in the sock.

[desertgal]

It seems to depend on which hand is in the sock.

Sigh. I miss the old days, when "sock puppet" just meant Shari Lewis and Lambchop.

[WGBH]

WGBH,

I have some honest questions for you.

You expressed much confidence that the creature you saw was nine feet tall by six feet wide (at the shoulders).

Do you stand firmly behind this, or are you (even somewhat) doubting the estimated measurement's accuracy based upon what a recreation of this creature might look like?

Furthermore, and forgive me if this has been answered, but where did the six foot shoulder estimate originate from and how did you come to this?

Do you stick by the estimated height of nine feet and the estimated shoulder width at six feet?


Again, if you are asking if I made the animal stand still while I measured it, NO. It was well over the 8 ft mark , therefore around nine. The shoulders were between 5 and 6 ft wide.

[makaya325]

I see. So, by that reasoning, at least some of the eyewitness accounts of Bigfoot must be true. So, you do believe in Bigfoot.

I did not say that. I said that people CAN Potentially be good eyewitnesses, maybe not all of the time, but perhaps rarely.

[kitakaze]

Again, if you are asking if I made the animal stand still while I measured it, NO. It was well over the 8 ft mark , therefore around nine. The shoulders were between 5 and 6 ft wide.

John, why would you say that? That wasn't what ColMD was asking at all. I don't think he was asking for you to simply repeat yourself but rather how you determined the size. The height you said you knew because you played soccer and the net is 8ft but where did you mention establishing the shoulders of the thing you saw from the waist up?

[desertgal]

I did not say that. I said that people CAN Potentially be good eyewitnesses, maybe not all of the time, but perhaps rarely.

Which has exactly been my point. That eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable does not mean that it is 100% unreliable. There are, and have always been, fairly accurate eyewitness accounts, but none of them should be used as the sole evidence to support a case.

Why didn't you just say you agreed nine posts ago, and saved us both the trouble of arguing it out? Dang.

[makaya325]

Which has exactly been my point. That eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable does not mean that it is 100% unreliable. There are, and have always been, fairly accurate eyewitness accounts, but none of them should be used as the sole evidence to support a case.

Why didn't you just say you agreed nine posts ago, and saved us both the trouble of arguing it out? Dang.

Darn it, error on me. I agree with your points Desert. Even though eyewitnesses cant be used to support a specific incident, cant we use them to lead us in the right direction?

[WGBH]

John, why would you say that? That wasn't what ColMD was asking at all. I don't think he was asking for you to simply repeat yourself but rather how you determined the size. The height you said you knew because you played soccer and the net is 8ft but where did you mention establishing the shoulders of the thing you saw from the waist up?

My best estimates.

[makaya325]

My best estimates.

Curious here: Do you wear prescription glasses or contact lense's? If not, may i ask how good is your vision?

[WGBH]

Curious here: Do you wear prescription glasses or contact lense's? If not, may i ask how good is your vision?

I do now. I started wearing glasses 3 years ago. Not then.

[WGBH]

Needed more cat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAknbzPVml8&feature=related).

(that thing that went to that place, I mean)

So, John, how long after you had the original experience did you start having the nightmares?

When would you say it was the worst?

Sorry, just noticed this.

Very soon after. They vary in intensity. Sometimes I am fine for weeks and sometimes I get hardly any sleep for days.

[desertgal]

Darn it, error on me. I agree with your points Desert. Even though eyewitnesses cant be used to support a specific incident, cant we use them to lead us in the right direction?

I can't say yes or no-it depends on what you are investigating, what other evidence you have, and how it all matches up. I've researched crime for 20 years, but I'm not in law enforcement, so I'm not an authority. Some knowledge, yes, but not as much as what I don't know.

From witnessing investigations and trials-and LT can correct me if I'm wrong-physical and circumstantial evidence are far more reliable and speak more truth in any investigation than eyewitness accounts. And if there is no physical/circumstantial evidence to support eyewitness accounts, then they should be viewed as anecdotal evidence. Might give you a few accurate hints, but it shouldn't be used to prove your case.

Locard's Principle: The subject will always leave something, no matter how small, of himself at the scene, and he will always take something, no matter how small, from the scene away with him. If you're lucky, and you look hard enough, those somethings will be big enough for you to find and match up.

Which is why I don't believe Bigfoot exists, or that eyewitness accounts of him are at all reliable. No one has ever found any of the somethings that would exist if the eyewitness accounts were true and accurate.

[ElectricVoodoo]

Again, if you are asking if I made the animal stand still while I measured it, NO. It was well over the 8 ft mark , therefore around nine. The shoulders were between 5 and 6 ft wide.

No, that wasn't what I was asking at all. One of my questions is pretty much what kitakaze related and that is how did you arrive at the 5-6' width of what you saw? The other was if you currently have any doubts about its height to width ratio?

If the answer to the first is "a guess" and the answer to the second is "no" then I have no further questions or comments. I'm just trying to put this into perspective, and to note the sheer size of what you saw.

[WGBH]

No, that wasn't what I was asking at all. One of my questions is pretty much what kitakaze related and that is how did you arrive at the 5-6' width of what you saw? The other was if you currently have any doubts about its height to width ratio?

If the answer to the first is "a guess" and the answer to the second is "no" then I have no further questions or comments. I'm just trying to put this into perspective, and to note the sheer size of what you saw.

They were both estimates. I am certain about the height because I has a tree for reference. The width is a guess. I believe my estimates on target to be that this animal was over eight feet tall and closer to 9 feet and that its shoulders were 5 to 6 ft wide. OK?

[ElectricVoodoo]

They were both estimates. I am certain about the height because I has a tree for reference. The width is a guess. I believe my estimates on target to be that this animal was over eight feet tall and closer to 9 feet and that its shoulders were 5 to 6 ft wide. OK?

Fair enough, that's all I was asking.

[wicked_ways]

Which is why I don't believe Bigfoot exists, or that eyewitness accounts of him are at all reliable. No one has ever found any of the somethings that would exist if the eyewitness accounts were true and accurate.


Hey desertgal,
what of historian's invisible, interdimensional bigfoot?
they could certainly commit the perfect crime. :D

sorry, i just read that thread, and it was just as good as the corndog simpson thread. i do love this forum. :)

[kitakaze]

They were both estimates. I am certain about the height because I has a tree for reference. The width is a guess. I believe my estimates on target to be that this animal was over eight feet tall and closer to 9 feet and that its shoulders were 5 to 6 ft wide. OK?Fair enough, that's all I was asking.

Eet vas deesh beeg...

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_217054a23021ae5fa0.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=16558)

OK?

[kitakaze]

Sorry, just noticed this.

Very soon after. They vary in intensity. Sometimes I am fine for weeks and sometimes I get hardly any sleep for days.

Does there seem to be any pattern or triggers?

How did your parents react to having there 17 year old son left in the woods alone with a gun after never having touched one or been in the woods before?

How did your parents react when your behaviour began changing drastically and the screaming in the night started very soon after the trip to the swamp with the Hatfields?

From sunrise to the time of your sighting how much time had elapsed would you estimate?

[WGBH]

Does there seem to be any pattern or triggers?

Well I am not sure, but If I go to sleep with Bigfoot on my mind, I am in for a long sleepness night. Such as if I talk to a witness or write up a sighting report. Most of the time I do not listen to the Bigfoot radio shows, I just chat in the chat rooms with friends.

How did your parents react to having there 17 year old son left in the woods alone with a gun after never having touched one or been in the woods before?

They knew I was going. I guess they trusted their neighbor to look after me. The rifle was not an issue, my friends Dad knew I was not going to fire it. It made me uncomfortable.

How did your parents react when your behaviour began changing drastically and the screaming in the night started very soon after the trip to the swamp with the Hatfields?

My Mom always asked me what I was dreaming, I told her I did not remember. My dad never commented or never noticed. When I finally told her about my sighting last year the first thing she said to me was "this is what is causing the nightmares isn't it?"

From sunrise to the time of your sighting how much time had elapsed would you estimate?

About 2 1/2 to 3 hours. It was about 8 or 9 am. We woke around 5 am and they showed me how to fire the gun and put the safety on then we had to walk to the stands. I estimate I got in the stand at 6 am maybe? I am not certain what time the sun actually was well up.

[WGBH]

Eet vas deesh beeg...

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_217054a23021ae5fa0.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=16558)

OK?

Looking at this graphic, I would say the height is about right, but the width looks a bit broad. If that is 6 ft wide, I would go with 5 ft.

[SweatyYeti]

Ray, for every Suspect being mistaken, how many are correctly identified? Police and eyewitnesses are correct many times on the news. Homo sapiens are not that dumb. It seems like you are trying to use ONE SPECIFIC case to point out unreliability concerning testimony. Yes, no one is perfect, but we are not to be underestimated concerning what we see. during Some of the times we report something, we are dead on.


I was thinking the same thing myself, mak, when I read that.

"Flawed observations by eyewitnesses in general' simply doesn't account for many of the Bigfoot sighting reports....because, as in John's case....(and in many other similar cases)....the chance (also known as "probability") that he misidentified a Bear, or a Deer, or a Coyote for a huge, massive, upright walking, human-looking...:rolleyes:, awful-smellin' Ape-Man is pretty much zero.

[tsig]

Again, if you are asking if I made the animal stand still while I measured it, NO. It was well over the 8 ft mark , therefore around nine. The shoulders were between 5 and 6 ft wide.

And your eyes never lies.

[tsig]

They were both estimates. I am certain about the height because I has a tree for reference. The width is a guess. I believe my estimates on target to be that this animal was over eight feet tall and closer to 9 feet and that its shoulders were 5 to 6 ft wide. OK?

I think you are a liar. You lied then and you are lying now.

[desertgal]

Homo sapiens are not that dumb.

"Flawed observations by eyewitnesses in general' simply doesn't account for many of the Bigfoot sighting reports....because, as in John's case....(and in many other similar cases)....the chance (also known as "probability") that he misidentified a Bear, or a Deer, or a Coyote for a huge, massive, upright walking, human-looking...:rolleyes:, awful-smellin' Ape-Man is pretty much zero.

Speaking of apparent contradictions... :D

[Drewbot]

John, Which of the following scenarios do you think is a more reasonable (to the general public) explanation for your sighting?

A. You saw a Giant, Hairy, Bipedal Primate, of an unclassified, undiscovered nature, and were traumatized by this encounter post-sighting.

B. You were hunting, and tired, and you hallucinated or dreamed that you saw something that resembles what we call Bigfoot.

[WGBH]

I think you are a liar. You lied then and you are lying now.

I'm sorry, I think you have mistaken me for someone who cares what you think.

[WGBH]

John, Which of the following scenarios do you think is a more reasonable (to the general public) explanation for your sighting?

A. You saw a Giant, Hairy, Bipedal Primate, of an unclassified, undiscovered nature, and were traumatized by this encounter post-sighting.

B. You were hunting, and tired, and you hallucinated or dreamed that you saw something that resembles what we call Bigfoot.

I don't care what is more reasonable to the general public. I care what is the truth and that would be A.

[tsig]

I'm sorry, I think you have mistaken me for someone who cares what you think.

Then why are you posting here? You have mistaken me for someone who cares about your feelings. You saw something that bothered you. Get a life. Why should we take your lies seriously?

[tsig]

I don't care what is more reasonable to the general public. I care what is the truth and that would be A.

How much money are you making off the truth?

[desertgal]

I don't care what is more reasonable to the general public. I care what is the truth and that would be A.

Okay. We've established that.

Can we end this pointless thread now? It's circular-skeptics offering suggestions and John responding that he saw Bigfoot. I thought, at first, that he might have come here for answers to help with the trauma he suffered, but, since he has rejected every explanation offered, that isn't so. We can't help much with the PTSD, except offer suggestions, whch we have.

John can now tell his friends that he wasn't swayed by the skeptics, which I'm guessing was the intent all along.

I suggest we all request that this thread be closed, or just let it die. We're just chasing our own tails.

[WGBH]

Then why are you posting here?

I was asked to answer questions.

[WGBH]

How much money are you making off the truth?

Wow, that was stunningly ignorant.

[makaya325]

I was thinking the same thing myself, mak, when I read that.

"Flawed observations by eyewitnesses in general' simply doesn't account for many of the Bigfoot sighting reports....because, as in John's case....(and in many other similar cases)....the chance (also known as "probability") that he misidentified a Bear, or a Deer, or a Coyote for a huge, massive, upright walking, human-looking...:rolleyes:, awful-smellin' Ape-Man is pretty much zero.

I know what you mean sweaty. Unlike lake monsters and ufo's, which have tons of explanations, Bigfoot doesnt have many.

[desertgal]

I know what you mean sweaty. Unlike lake monsters and ufo's, which have tons of explanations, Bigfoot doesnt have many.

Oh, for the love of...

How many explanations do you think there could be in the deep woods? You aren't exactly going to see, say, a weather balloon there.

It's a Bigfoot.
It's a figment of the imagination/trick of the mind
It's an hallucination.
It's a lie.

So, that's three plausible, proven explanations against one mythical one. I'm sure other folks could think of more.

But, since Sweaty is sure that the majority of all those sightings must be Bigfoot, then, please, Sweaty, do share with us the verified proof of Bigfoot that makes that explanation more plausible than any other. We'll wait.

As for the idea that a bear could never be mistaken for a Bigfoot, that is just downright stupid. Obviously, Sweaty hasn't spent too much time in the woods, and has definitely never encountered a bear. As for the idea that intelligence has anything to do with tricks of the mind or that anyone can control the mind to the point that all observations would be 100% accurate, that is just as stupid.

Hell, I knew a guy in the Sierra Nevada Mountains who swore up and down that one dark night, he came out of his tent and saw a Bigfoot in the moonlight. Said it was moving and rustling and he could hear it breathing. Scared him so bad, he ran to his truck and took off. When he and his buddies went back the next day to get his stuff, "Bigfoot" turned out to be a freaking tree, the rustling was squirrels in the pine needles, and the 'breathing' he heard was the wind blowing through a hollow in a dead tree, combined with his own breathing.

Please tell us the "tons" of explanations there are for lake monsters, though.

[makaya325]

:DOh, for the love of...

How many explanations do you think there could be in the deep woods? You aren't exactly going to see, say, a weather balloon there.

It's a Bigfoot.
It's a figment of the imagination/trick of the mind
It's an hallucination.
It's a lie.

So, that's three plausible, proven explanations against one mythical one. I'm sure other folks could think of more.

But, since Sweaty is sure that the majority of all those sightings must be Bigfoot, then, please, Sweaty, do share with us the verified proof of Bigfoot that makes that explanation more plausible than any other. We'll wait.

As for the idea that a bear could never be mistaken for a Bigfoot, that is just downright stupid. Obviously, Sweaty hasn't spent too much time in the woods, and has definitely never encountered a bear. As for the idea that intelligence has anything to do with tricks of the mind or that anyone can control the mind to the point that all observations would be 100% accurate, that is just as stupid.

Hell, I knew a guy in the Sierra Nevada Mountains who swore up and down that one dark night, he came out of his tent and saw a Bigfoot in the moonlight. Said it was moving and rustling and he could hear it breathing. Scared him so bad, he ran to his truck and took off. When he and his buddies went back the next day to get his stuff, "Bigfoot" turned out to be a freaking tree, the rustling was squirrels in the pine needles, and the 'breathing' he heard was the wind blowing through a hollow in a dead tree, combined with his own breathing.

For all we know, you COULD be making it up

Please tell us the "tons" of explanations there are for lake monsters, though.

Lake monsters: Birds, otters, waves, seiches, boats, sub's, dogs, moose, wakes, logs, rocks, sturgeon, pike, gar, beavers, ducks, snakes, hoaxes, seals, light distortion, etc

Bigfoot: hmm...lets see....Bears (haha), suited humans (Some one clean my key board, bc i spit out my coffee laughing so hard!), Sleep paralysis (That could explain some sightings). Um, thats just about it. Dont try to lump hallucinations with other disorders, please.

[desertgal]

For all we know, you COULD be making it up

Yeah, I could. But, I'm not. And not all of us are somewhat less than honest.

Lake monsters: Birds, otters, waves, seiches, boats, sub's, dogs, moose, wakes, logs, rocks, sturgeon, pike, gar, beavers, ducks, snakes, hoaxes, seals, light distortion, etc

Seals? In a lake?

21...yup, that's TONS.

Bigfoot: hmm...lets see....Bears (haha),

Okay. Please provide evidence that proves that not a single Bigfoot sighting was actually bear.

Dont try to lump hallucinations with other disorders, please.

A trick of the mind and imagination are neither physical brain nor mental disorders. Nowhere did I say or suggest that they were.

A disorder is made up of a number of symptoms, not just one. If you don't know that, then don't use the word. And learn how to read a post thoroughly. This isn't the first time you've quoted someone as saying something they did not say.

I have a son with a severe developmental disorder. You might take the use (or misuse) of that word lightly, but I absolutely do not. I would never suggest that a single hallucination, trick of the mind, or figment of imagination meant the person had a physical or mental disorder. If you imply or infer again that I did when I didn't, I have no problem reporting your post as a personal attack.

[Vortigern99]

Regional expectation -- a perceptual distortion based on the degree of belief one's local culture places in a given phenomenon -- is another likely contributor to BF sightings. Combine this known and studied phenomenon with sightings of bears, human beings, tree stumps, shadows in the night, and other unidentified objects or animals in the woods, and you have a logical and rational explanation for many BF reports.

Further, as desertgal has noted, hallucination need not be the product of any "disorder". It can result from fatigue, stress, isolation, and/or the state between sleep and waking known as hypnagogia.

Intentional fraud, sometimes involving hair suits, is also a known and documented phenomenon.

So you might wish to add those to your list.

[desertgal]

Regional expectation -- a perceptual distortion based on the degree of belief one's local culture places in a given phenomenon -- is another likely contributor to BF sightings. Combine this known and studied phenomenon with sightings of bears, human beings, tree stumps, shadows in the night, and other unidentified objects or animals in the woods, and you have a logical and rational explanation for many BF reports.

Further, as desertgal has noted, hallucination need not be the product of any "disorder". It can result from fatigue, stress, isolation, and/or the state between sleep and waking known as hypnagogia.

Intentional fraud, sometimes involving hair suits, is also a known and documented phenomenon.

So you might wish to add those to your list.

So. Six plausible, proven explanations against one mythical explanation. I dunno, Sweaty...your argument is starting to look kinda weak...

[Spektator]

Regional expectation -- a perceptual distortion based on the degree of belief one's local culture places in a given phenomenon -- is another likely contributor to BF sightings. Combine this known and studied phenomenon with sightings of bears, human beings, tree stumps, shadows in the night (snip)...

And not only in the night; Creekfreak's daytime "bigfoot" photo was actually just a picture that included a few twigs showing up against a shadowed background. It was a striking illusion, but clearly only an illusion. Well, to everyone but Creekfreak.

[Drewbot]

John, Which of the following scenarios do you think is a more reasonable (to the general public) explanation for your sighting?

A. You saw a Giant, Hairy, Bipedal Primate, of an unclassified, undiscovered nature, and were traumatized by this encounter post-sighting.

B. You were hunting, and tired, and you hallucinated or dreamed that you saw something that resembles what we call Bigfoot.

I don't care what is more reasonable to the general public. I care what is the truth and that would be A.

John, I am not trying to insult you with this line of questioning, I am simply trying to determine if there is a perceived stigma associated with your opinion of what the general public might think of someone who has a hallucination.

Do you believe that someone who has a hallucination should be labeled as 'crazy', or 'nuts'?

Do you believe the general public believes that someone who has a hallucination should be labeled as 'crazy' or 'nuts'?

[WGBH]

John, I am not trying to insult you with this line of questioning, I am simply trying to determine if there is a perceived stigma associated with your opinion of what the general public might think of someone who has a hallucination.

Do you believe that someone who has a hallucination should be labeled as 'crazy', or 'nuts'?

Do you believe the general public believes that someone who has a hallucination should be labeled as 'crazy' or 'nuts'?

I have no experience with hallucinations or people who hallucinate, so I cannot answer these questions.

[Vortigern99]

But you have eyes and the capacity to read and understand information. Yet you have not examined the known and documented human phenomenon of hallucination, at least not to the point of being able to grasp that it can and does occur as a result of fatigue, isolation, stress -- all of which you've described as elements of your sighting. You've also demonstrated in past posts that you have a bias against people who hallucinate, and/or that you believe others harbor such a bias. You're unwilling to accept the most rational explanation for your sighting, probably because you fear being labeled "insane" either by others in your social group, or by your own limited understanding of and bias against the very phenomenon you probably experienced, namely hypnagogic hallucination.

[Correa Neto]

I once saw -and chased for a very brief time- a guinea fowl with two heads (you can use the seach tool to find my "sighting report").

Is this enough of reason to labell me as crazy or nuts?

[WGBH]

But you have eyes and the capacity to read and understand information. Yet you have not examined the known and documented human phenomenon of hallucination, at least not to the point of being able to grasp that it can and does occur as a result of fatigue, isolation, stress -- all of which you've described as elements of your sighting. You've also demonstrated in past posts that you have a bias against people who hallucinate, and/or that you believe others harbor such a bias. You're unwilling to accept the most rational explanation for your sighting, probably because you fear being labeled "insane" either by others in your social group, or by your own limited understanding of and bias against the very phenomenon you probably experienced, namely hypnagogic hallucination.

I have read and do understand the information, I just find the evidence in my case lacking for that to have occured. Please supply me the proof of my bias against people who hallucinate, seeing as I don't even know any people who do. I have news for you bud, I am already called insane, it's not that big a deal to me. In fact it has been thrown around here on this thread several times.The most rational explanation would be that I saw what I saw.

[Vortigern99]

No, that explanation is irrational, for the simple reason that no logical mechanism exists by which a breeding population of 9-foot tall, hideously odorous primates could have gone undetected by biologists, all while obtaining 10000+ calories a day without the required somatic traits to do so (namely good sniffers or claws for digging), in an area of the eastern US which has been studied and researched for decades, and in which far smaller animals have been catalogued and classified, for 50+ years while people are actively looking for it.

And before you accuse my mind of being closed to the idea, I would like to point out to you that until March or April of this year I was a "believer" in that I harbored an opinion that BF could possibly exist hidden away in the forests of NA -- until I began to follow the links offered to me on this site, until my understanding of the caloric requirements of a bear (the only species that comes close to the size and possible diet of a putative BF) made me realize that no animal could obtain that much nutrition without being noticed by professionals, and until my mind began to carefully and critically examine the likelihood that no bone, no hair, no scat, no DNA and indeed no evidence of any kind could have been left behind by a real and extant animal of this kind.

My mind is not closed to the idea: rather, I have entertained it at length,turned it over to examine it from a number of angles as though it were true; and finally concluded based on logic and an analysis of the facts that it is not tenable, logical, rational, reasonable, or probable.

Show me some evidence, and we'll talk. Until then, the only rational conclusion here is that you either 1) experienced a hallucination which you are unwilling to come to terms with based on its apparently vivid reality; 2) you were hoaxed by a third party wearing a suit, or 3) you are willfully hoaxing us. I don't believe it's 3) as tsig does; I think you're simply mistaken about what you saw and that your mind, for whatever reason, is closed to the possibility of hypnagogia.

[WGBH]

1) experienced a hallucination which you are unwilling to come to terms with based on its apparently vivid reality;

That's not what my psychiatrist told me.:D


2) you were hoaxed by a third party wearing a suit,

Not even a remote possibility. For what possible reason would someone want to hoax me? If someone went to all that trouble and cost, I am sure they would have made sure I got a better look then I did.

or 3) you are willfully hoaxing us. I don't believe it's 3) as tsig does;

Why the heck would I want to hoax the JREF forum? LOL!!!

I think you're simply mistaken about what you saw and that your mind,


for whatever reason, is closed to the possibility of hypnagogia.

yes, pretty much.

[kitakaze]

I have no experience with hallucinations or people who hallucinate, so I cannot answer these questions.

Not even beer goggles (http://maaadddog.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/beergoggles.jpg)? :D

[RayG]

I thought you said you didn't seek professional help?

RayG

[kitakaze]

for whatever reason, is closed to the possibility of hypnagogia.

yes, pretty much.

I don't understand why you are closed to that idea. Early in this thread we highlighted a number of aspects of your encounter story that are very consistent with a sleep state-related experience. The only thing you could offer to refute was that it didn't happen again which is an invalid argument that doesn't address the reality of how people can experience such things or the unique circumstances you were under.

[kitakaze]

The most rational explanation would be that I saw what I saw.

I'm sorry, John, but no matter how many times you assert that, it doesn't make it true. 9 x 6ft monster wood apes in NC are no more plausible than the vividly described sightings of Reptoids, Dogmen, Greys, ghosts, chupacabras, etc. People see things that aren't there and believe them all the time. People's minds distort memories all the time. The power of perception is something known and studied. Monster wood apes have no more evidence than E.T. visitors.

[kitakaze]

John, here is the Pasquotank River as seen from above...

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=Pasquotank%20river%20Pasquotank%20County&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

And the Great Dismal Swamp...

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=great%20dismal%20swamp&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

Notice the Pasquotank River is in a narrow corridor of farmland and would also have been in 1982. Note that the Great Dismal Swamp is completely surrounded by farmland with Lake Drummond smack in the middle and the major residential areas of Portsmouth, Norfolk, and Chesapeake to the Northeast and Suffolk to the Northwest. The idea that now or in 1982 a species of up to 9 x 6 ft monster wood ape that screams like a dying lady, roars, throws things at people, approaches hunters, and reeks horribly was/is maintaining a population in there is as bad as calling Reptoids. It is so far gone. Even just thinking that one made it in there somehow is ridiculous.

I'm not insulting you at all, just putting in front of your eyes what we're really dealing with. Look at those photos. Zoom in and out and play around with them. Try and plot out a habitat for Bigfoots and how they got in there without being discovered by modern science. Remember how extensive the history of human manipulation of that environment is.

[HarryHenderson]

Okay. We've established that.

Can we end this pointless thread now? It's circular-skeptics offering suggestions and John responding that he saw Bigfoot. I thought, at first, that he might have come here for answers to help with the trauma he suffered, but, since he has rejected every explanation offered, that isn't so. We can't help much with the PTSD, except offer suggestions, whch we have.

John can now tell his friends that he wasn't swayed by the skeptics, which I'm guessing was the intent all along.

I suggest we all request that this thread be closed, or just let it die. We're just chasing our own tails.
At the risk of a mod beating for following the same poster around the board too closely (joke son - only 2nd quote today), desertgal's suggestion is timely and makes true sense. I've been giving WGBH as much 'slack' as anyone probably could, considering it's been 2-3 YEARS, but it's time to get a grip on reality. WGBH saw Bigfoot! And we need to get over it. Cosmic truth isn't really such a big player in this little game. And besides, had I been the one to see that 9x6 monster depicted in the comparison pic above, I'd be the one regularly seeking the nearest Liquor For Good Mental Health™ store. Yes, the one next to that Cigarettes Make You Breathe Better™ store.

[makaya325]

I'm sorry, John, but no matter how many times you assert that, it doesn't make it true. 9 x 6ft monster wood apes in NC are no more plausible than the vividly described sightings of Reptoids, Dogmen, Greys, ghosts, chupacabras, etc. People see things that aren't there and believe them all the time. People's minds distort memories all the time. The power of perception is something known and studied. Monster wood apes have no more evidence than E.T. visitors.

They do have better evidence than honest republicans! :D

[makaya325]

[QUOTE]No, that explanation is irrational, for the simple reason that no logical mechanism exists by which a breeding population of 9-foot tall, hideously odorous primates could have gone undetected by biologists, all while obtaining 10000+ calories a day without the required somatic traits to do so (namely good sniffers or claws for digging), in an area of the eastern US which has been studied and researched for decades, and in which far smaller animals have been catalogued and classified, for 50+ years while people are actively looking for it.

That paragraph, Vort, made me confident there no monsta's in the woods.

[WGBH]

Not even beer goggles (http://maaadddog.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/beergoggles.jpg)? :D

Well, I must admit yes to that. :D

[WGBH]

I thought you said you didn't seek professional help?

RayG

Not until last week. Please don't ask me to comment on personal medical issues and today will only be my second session anyway.

[WGBH]

John, here is the Pasquotank River as seen from above...

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=Pasquotank%20river%20Pasquotank%20County&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

And the Great Dismal Swamp...

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=great%20dismal%20swamp&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

Notice the Pasquotank River is in a narrow corridor of farmland and would also have been in 1982. Note that the Great Dismal Swamp is completely surrounded by farmland with Lake Drummond smack in the middle and the major residential areas of Portsmouth, Norfolk, and Chesapeake to the Northeast and Suffolk to the Northwest. The idea that now or in 1982 a species of up to 9 x 6 ft monster wood ape that screams like a dying lady, roars, throws things at people, approaches hunters, and reeks horribly was/is maintaining a population in there is as bad as calling Reptoids. It is so far gone. Even just thinking that one made it in there somehow is ridiculous.

I'm not insulting you at all, just putting in front of your eyes what we're really dealing with. Look at those photos. Zoom in and out and play around with them. Try and plot out a habitat for Bigfoots and how they got in there without being discovered by modern science. Remember how extensive the history of human manipulation of that environment is.

Kit what makes you think that the area is the same as 1982? There were not even any major roads except Route 17 in 1982 and then it was only one lane in each direction. When I was down there a few weeks ago the area looks totally different. It used to take 90 mins to get there in 1982, it now takes 45 mins. I am not saying you are wrong but just curious as to your reasoning.
The area has been significantly developed.