Bigfoot- Anybody Seen one?

[Vortigern99]

Right. I think "bigfoot" is studied, though, based on things I have read. It seems that there are quite a few people who really do devote a big part of their lives to "bigfoot", including spending a lot of money on "expeditions".

Of course, the phenomenon of bigfoot sightings is studied, as is the subculture surrounding those sightings, and the various pieces of information that have been put forward as evidence. But the animal itself is not and, as of this afternoon, cannot be studied, since we have no type specimen, no scat, no tissue, no bones, no fossil remains. Once data of this kind is forthcoming, I for one will be happy to say I've been mistaken, congratulate the proponents and witnesses, and then get on with the business of studying what must a fascinating animal.

The most interesting thread on the other forum to me was the one about hallucinating while driving. I know that happens. People, especially driving long distances, can do weird things. I've been a passenger in a car before where the driver fell asleep...and didn't even realize he had fallen asleep. That was even a very short drive, maybe a half hour! Clearly it is a very serious issue, and I have been pleased to see, in newer cars, the instrument panels being moved to the middle instead of being right in front of the driver's eyes. It seems reasonable to me that could very well make a difference in safer driving, and is much easier on the eyes during night driving...in my opinion, anyway.

Exactly, which is why hypnagogic hallucination is a more probable explanation for your sighting than that an undiscovered primate is roaming North America in numbers great enough to viably reproduce yet not great enough to leave remains.

[WGBH]

Please be aware that I came to these forums a bigfoot believer, as did Kitikaze and others. Our open-mindedness to the data and evidence (or lack thereof) have convinced us otherwise. We did not come here with an a priori opinion, asserting that "you will not change my mind!"; instead, we investigated the facts and made our conclusions based on those facts.


At least you came into this by your own choice. I never asked for or wanted this. The subject never interested me in the slightest. I had no choice. I tried to deny and ignore what I saw for 25 years. Much to my frustration, I understand the lack of evidence regarding the existence of this animal.

Your facts are different then mine. I saw one. I heard one. I smelled one. Bigfoot are a reality to me. It was not a hallucination, it was not a sleep disorder, it was not a bear. I will not stop trying.

I realize that it is possible I will never get my answers. Hell, it is likely I will not. It would be easy to say that I hallucinated it all. It would also be lying to myself. I am not a liar to myself or anyone.

[Vortigern99]

But how can you be so certain that you did not hallucinate the animal? If you've looked into hallucinatory phenomena, then you're aware that sight, sound, smell and even touch can be hallucinated in a way that, in the moment, is indistinguishable from reality. You're refusing to consider that you experienced a temporary mental state shared by large numbers of sane, healthy human beings throughout history. Why?

[WGBH]

But how can you be so certain that you did not hallucinate the animal? If you've looked into hallucinatory phenomena, then you're aware that sight, sound, smell and even touch can be hallucinated in a way that, in the moment, is indistinguishable from reality. You're refusing to consider that you experienced a temporary mental state shared by large numbers of sane, healthy human beings throughout history. Why?

I guess the same reason you refuse to believe me. I am stubborn. I am just handicapped by proof.

[kitakaze]

I saw one. I heard one. I smelled one. Bigfoot are a reality to me.

What was the distance of the Bigfoot you smelled, again?

How exactly is it that you think massive, stinky bipedal mammals moving about in human civilization areas of the Eastern Seaboard elude being a known species?

What is it that you think made you start to spasm and go in a fetal position?

[Vortigern99]

I guess the same reason you refuse to believe me. I am stubborn. I am just handicapped by proof.

That's no answer. I "refuse" to believe you not because I'm stubborn, but because there is no evidence of this animal, and because once we begin to analyze the likelihood of a giant odiferous primate roaming one of the most populated continents on the planet, while obtaining 8000+ calories per diem in winter, in numbers sufficient to sustain a viable breeding population, all while somehow avoiding unambiguous photography and failing to leave any scat or mortal remains, we see how the logic of your "proof" breaks down to non-existence.

[WGBH]

What was the distance of the Bigfoot you smelled, again?

How exactly is it that you think massive, stinky bipedal mammals moving about in human civilization areas of the Eastern Seaboard elude being a known species?

What is it that you think made you start to spasm and go in a fetal position?

The odor was the first thing I experienced. Well before I actually had the sighting. I could smell it for a few days in my nose. The animal I witnessed was less than 50 yards away. That is as specific as I can get for distance.

I have no idea how. The area was sparsely populated in 1982. Looking at a google map now is not the same. I am not saying there were not people around, but there were not many.

I have no idea what caused me to feel dizzy, ill and spasm. All I hear are theories. I do know it was not my imagination.

[WGBH]

That's no answer. I "refuse" to believe you not because I'm stubborn, but because there is no evidence of this animal, and because once we begin to analyze the likelihood of a giant odiferous primate roaming one of the most populated continents on the planet, while obtaining 8000+ calories per diem in winter, in numbers sufficient to sustain a viable breeding population, all while somehow avoiding unambiguous photography and failing to leave any scat or mortal remains, we see how the logic of your "proof" breaks down to non-existence.

Lots of unlikely things exist. It is your logic that they do not exist. Nothing wrong with that logic. I operate under the logic that I witnessed what I saw.

[kitakaze]

Lots of unlikely things exist. It is your logic that they do not exist. Nothing wrong with that logic. I operate under the logic that I witnessed what I saw.

John, what logic do you operate under about this woman?

8Q1rv8Xx5u0

xEMdnhXAW5c

[WGBH]

John, what logic do you operate under about this woman?


I am not familiar with this woman. I have no knowledge or interest in what she is speaking about.

[kitakaze]

The odor was the first thing I experienced. Well before I actually had the sighting. I could smell it for a few days in my nose. The animal I witnessed was less than 50 yards away. That is as specific as I can get for distance.

A power stink from a distance that got all up in your nose for a few days. That is some powerful stuff. Did everybody on the car ride home just think you had the toots or what? Actually, that sounds much more like a psychological phenomenon where people perceive a persistent odour in their nose that is not there.

I have no idea how. The area was sparsely populated in 1982. Looking at a google map now is not the same. I am not saying there were not people around, but there were not many.

Actually, yes, there were many people around there in 1982. The Pasquotank River area (http://www.newbegun.com/aa_SiteObjects/aa_IMAGES/siteBits/maps/006-Pasquotank-River.jpg) has been an area of human habitation for a long time now. Elizabeth City didn't pop up in 1995. Giant 9x6 ft monster apes hanging around in this vicinity (http://tarheeltalker.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/ec_birdview.jpg) are not going to be unknown to science.

I have no idea what caused me to feel dizzy, ill and spasm. All I hear are theories. I do know it was not my imagination.

Yeah, that sucks that you felt what you perceived to feel as an electric show that immobilized you, followed by spasms and slumping into a fetal positions, and then feeling really groggy. I suppose it was the infrasound and nothing neurological in origin.

[kitakaze]

I am not familiar with this woman. I have no knowledge or interest in what she is speaking about.

Try to muster it up. She's lucid, articulate, and describes in great detail what she claims to have seen. She is convinced of it. Trust me, it's relevant. I'm worried about this. Apparently not only are there 9x6 ft monster apes poking about putting the stink on people and giving them infra-blasts, there are also Reptoids out there getting into the who knows what. Why didn't she see a Reptoid, John?

[WGBH]

Try to muster it up. She's lucid, articulate, and describes in great detail what she claims to have seen. She is convinced of it. Trust me, it's relevant. I'm worried about this. Apparently not only are there 9x6 ft monster apes poking about putting the stink on people and giving them infra-blasts, there are also Reptoids out there getting into the who knows what. Why didn't she see a Reptoid, John?

Sorry you worry about such things. I am here if you need to talk to someone.

[kitakaze]

Sorry you worry about such things. I am here if you need to talk to someone.

Great, let's discuss the subject. You say you saw a giant 9x6 ft monster Bigfoot in 1982 in the Pasquotank River area of North Carolina. That lady says she saw Reptoids. You are a lucid individual who is convinced of what you say you saw and so is she. What are we to do with this? Why should we consider it more plausible that you saw Bigfoot than her seeing Reptoids? People see things that are not there. People have faulty memories. People convince themselves of fantasies.

Witnesses are talking about Reptoids. What is up with that?

[WGBH]

Great, let's discuss the subject. You say you saw a giant 9x6 ft monster Bigfoot in 1982 in the Pasquotank River area of North Carolina. That lady says she saw Reptoids. You are a lucid individual who is convinced of what you say you saw and so is she. What are we to do with this? Why should we consider it more plausible that you saw Bigfoot than her seeing Reptoids? People see things that are not there. People have faulty memories. People convince themselves of fantasies.

Witnesses are talking about Reptoids. What is up with that?

Great, let's discuss the subject. You say you saw a giant 9x6 ft monster Bigfoot in 1982 in the Pasquotank River area of North Carolina.

Correct

That lady says she saw Reptoids.
OK


You are a lucid individual who is convinced of what you say you saw and so is she. What are we to do with this? Why should we consider it more plausible that you saw Bigfoot than her seeing Reptoids?

Last I checked this thread was not titled Reptoids (whatever that means) anyone seen one? I do not know enough about the woman or the topic to make a comment about it.

People see things that are not there. People have faulty memories. People convince themselves of fantasies.

I am aware that people do these things.

Witnesses are talking about Reptoids. What is up with that?

I have no clue what it is about, but if it troubles you we can start a Reptoid thread and discuss it.

[kitakaze]

I've located the area where Sugar says that she and her husband saw a Bigfoot. She said she was travelling towards Marianna in Lee County, Arkansas on Route 79 and had just passed a prison. The jail was the East Arkansas Regional Unit (http://www.adc.arkansas.gov/facilities/facilities2.html). You can see the area at the following link...

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&source=hp&q=East%20Arkansas%20Regional%20Unit%20&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

Whatever sugar saw was somewhere there between EARU and Marianna running on Route 79. The area has very few small pockets of wooded area, is largely agricultural, and surrounded by human civilization. How do we not have a type specimen for a massive animal that runs down a highway in Lee County, Arkansas?

[kitakaze]

Last I checked this thread was not titled Reptoids (whatever that means) anyone seen one? I do not know enough about the woman or the topic to make a comment about it.

Discussing the woman's claim of seeing Reptoids in relation to your claim of seeing Bigfoot is not off topic. I am showing you that people can convince themselves of seeing things that we know do not exist. Reptoids are no less plausible than Bigfoot. Lots of people say they see Reptoids. That woman could be here insisting that she is not mistaken and did in fact see a Reptoid. Do you think Reptoids exist?

Why should anyone think you saw a real Bigfoot over having something nuerological happen when you say you felt a sensation like an electric shock, couldn't move, had spasms, went to the floor in a fetal position, felt then really groggy, heard footsteps unassociated to what you after saw, and had a weird smell in your nose for days that nobody else could smell? Wow, that's got neurological incident all over it. What rules out a false memory?

[154]

I appreciate your compliment, 154. In return, I would offer one to both Vort and WP...I appreciate and consider your opinion of them then to their benefit.

As for the MM reference, I can only assume you are referring to when Bigfoot INC conglomerate Matthew Moneymaker vowed to sue me to next Tuesday. Moneymaker hates me because I expose him as a sheister and would often talk about him and his weiner Bigfoot enthusiast pals scamming people. I don't believe for a second that Moneymaker actually believes Bigfoot exists. If you want to see more Moneymaker/kitakaze controversy, which I think was relatively minor, just google "Moneymaker kitakaze". It's not that exciting, I think, and I fear legal action from pretend-a-lawyer Moneymaker about as much as I fear Bigfoot incidences while camping.Yeah, I remember somewhere reading that incident shortly afterwards and thinking your opinion was very capable and well-spoken and I was hoping to see a more protracted dialogue. I'll find it again.

It's unfortunate that you've found your experience with skeptical analysis and critical thinking on a skeptic message board so unpleasant.It's unfortunate that you fancy yourself (and WP?) the very embodiment of skeptical analysis and critical thinking, because in that regard, it was only in you that I was disappointed. You see, I'm critical of your skeptical analysis also, and am capable of drawing my own conclusions even if they run contrary to the only ones you perceive as acceptable- your own, but aknowledge your jousting ability. Far from unpleasant, it's my pleasure. Perhaps I'm that masochist?

You may wish to consider, in the future, the potential consequences of posting your opinion that an undiscovered primate, for which there is not a shred of hard evidence, is absolutely, unquestionably real, on a skeptic message board.It's already been considered... thanks though...

I further recommend some reading on the subject of the scientific method and the process of critical thought. Sagan's Demon-Haunted World is a good start. Otherwise you're likely to go through life accepting any ludicrous claim that comes your way, such as that unknown phenomena beyond the workings of the natural world are responsible for bovine decomposition.Edited to remove personal remarks.

Please keep in mind the Membership Agreement and do not use personal attacks to argue your point.

[kitakaze]

I appreciate and consider your opinion of them then to their benefit.

Yeah, I remember somewhere reading that incident shortly afterwards and thinking your opinion was very capable and well-spoken and I was hoping to see a more protracted dialogue. I'll find it again.

I'm losing track of my Bigfoot sightings. 154, can you go back to post #1420 (http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/89614996f85077c1f.jpg) and give me some specifics to look into regarding your sighting?

Moneymaker has an account here but I think he'll be too busy making money to stop by anytime soon with no less than 100 BFRO expeditions for 2010 and a TV series going. There's a lot of people to sucker...

2010 Expeditions for Alumni Only (http://bfro.net/news/expeds_2010.asp)

[Skeptical Greg]

The BFRO has introduced over 4,000 new people to bigfoot field research over the past five years -- more than enough people for local organizers to work with, and become more familiar with.

:o

[154]

...I am starting from the position that you were either hoaxed or are yourself lying about or embellishing something you saw.
I'm losing track of my Bigfoot sightings. 154, can you go back.. and give me some specifics to look into regarding your sighting?From my perspective, I'm just kind of cutting through the chase to the kill. After we fill a page or two, and after Vort, WP and a few others chip in, and we arrive at some satisfaction that I am not lying or embellishing... we will arrive at an impasse of assumed hoax or hallucination beyond which I will be able to do nothing. So then, is there really any benefit to me in going through the exercise and so exposing myself? In the meantime, maybe... and I'll watch you dispose of the others.

Moneymaker has an account here but I think he'll be too busy making money to stop by anytime soon with no less than 100 BFRO expeditions for 2010 and a TV series going. There's a lot of people to sucker...
2010 Expeditions for Alumni Only (http://bfro.net/news/expeds_2010.asp)Maybe he doesn't need their money or their risk?

[sugarb]

From my perspective, I'm just kind of cutting through the chase to the kill. After we fill a page or two, and after Vort, WP and a few others chip in, and we arrive at some satisfaction that I am not lying or embellishing... we will arrive at an impasse of assumed hoax beyond which I will be able to do nothing. So then, is there really any benefit to me in going through the exercise and so exposing myself? In the meantime, maybe... and I'll watch you dispose of the others.

Maybe he doesn't need their money or their risk?

Good point of the eventual impasse. Excellent point. Unfortunately, that would mean that the discussion is essentially over before it begins. I still predict that if my husband registers he'll be a "sock puppet", lol. 154, you are wiser than me.

The Moneymaker guy, though...I don't know if he "needs" their money, but it sure does look to me like he takes advantage of people. But then again, so does the circus and movie theaters and lots of other businesses. We get what we pay for, I reckon. Some people are more willing to part with their money for entertainment's sake than me. I guess the upside to his "expeditions" is that people who otherwise don't get out into nature much have some time to appreciate how fantastic it is. Or at least I hope they do.

[WGBH]

Why should anyone think you saw a real Bigfoot over having something nuerological happen when you say you felt a sensation like an electric shock, couldn't move, had spasms, went to the floor in a fetal position, felt then really groggy, heard footsteps unassociated to what you after saw, and had a weird smell in your nose for days that nobody else could smell? Wow, that's got neurological incident all over it. What rules out a false memory?

Kitakaze,

If this is what you believe happened to me, I am sure I cannot change your mind. If you expect me to agree with it, I'm sorry not going to happen.

[JoeyDonuts]

I PMed Longtabber some time ago to get his words on what I thought might have been a mistake by Joey Donuts, whom I also know, and I had no response. Then I saw in a PM from someone else the proof that he was making it all up.

I guess I haven't really weighed in on this matter on this particular board yet where the Bigfoot community is concerned.

Kit, you have no idea how much I wish I had been wrong about him. I was waiting for some kind of proof from him, specific units, former commanding officers, places he'd been stationed at, anything at all that would have proven his story.

I would have been first in line to issue an apology and vouch for him to anyone that wanted to hear it had that been the case.

Instead, a flood of insults and derision. When that began, I was even more sure he was someone that had fabricated this particular aspect of his persona. I still didn't know for certain, though.

When I contacted various people that were in the three U.S. Army Special Forces Groups during the timeframe Longtabber claimed, nobody recognized his name. Furthermore, they found his claimed "operations" to be ridiculous and highly suspect.

Still not enough, though. It was possible, however infantile and unlikely, that he moved between three seperate SFGs and never crossed paths with any of the people I contacted. He did claim to be 1st SFOD-D (Delta Force) and I'm still not sure of their organizational structure within USSOCOM.

The folks at the POWNETWORK were as skeptical as I was, and did some more digging to uncover his name, which I won't share here. A records request with the National Personnel Records Center returned no records of any sort of any kind of military service. This seems like a grevious invasion of privacy, but when you're suspected of impersonating a member of the US Armed Forces for any reason, this is the hammer you bring down upon yourself.

What is apparent is that Longtabber PE has a very impressive depth of knowledge ABOUT the military with reference to places, things, technology, and organizational structure. All of it can be come across through careful open-source research, Jane's, Global Security, and other such publications.

It is still possible (and extremely unlikely) that Longtabber was in the military under a different name, and personnel of three different SFGs still did not know him. Given that he claimed also to be an E-8 with a PhD, we're dealing with almost ZERO probability. An enlisted servicemember with a doctorate? I bet you can count those on one hand. Surely people would have remembered such a person, given the leadership roles intrinsic to being an E-8 of any service.

The real kicker for me was when I dangled Eric L. Haney's name out there. He was the former Delta Operative who went on to write a book and assist with production of The Unit. Of course Longtabber claimed to not only know him, but to be a close associate.

Eric L. Haney, despite being a confirmed Been There, Done That - is something of a pariah in the Special Forces community because of his publishing noteriety. No real operative name-drops him.

I suppose it also goes without saying that Special Forces operatives are referred to as "Quiet Professionals" for a reason.

ETA: Apologies for the derail. I won't be commenting further on this matter in any threads here. Feel free to PM me if anyone would like more information.

[kitakaze]

Kitakaze,

If this is what you believe happened to me, I am sure I cannot change your mind. If you expect me to agree with it, I'm sorry not going to happen.

Sure, you can change my mind. Feel free to change my mind about which of the following of your own statements did or did not not happen...

"Then I felt like a static electricity shock, it felt like, and kind of.. have you been shocked before, it’s like your just frozen? All the hairs on your body are standing up, and you’re just stuck there, I guess."

"And then I started having some kind of muscle spasms or nervous spasms, really bad, and I kind of slumped down on the floor of the deer stand, and curled up in the fetal position."

"I was really groggy and kind of getting myself back together. I sat back up, and was like, what the hell was that? And I started to look out the deer stand again. Then all the sudden I started hearing something, like footsteps, like branches breaking, like leaves crunching, like bushes rattling. Like something was moving through the forest."[/

[HarryHenderson]

But you were never in the Army. (http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies575.htm)...Check out Longtabber PE for your example...
Well that cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, fore-fleshing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey sh*t he is. Hallelujah. Holy sh*t. Where's the Tylenol?

True story: As a mod on the BFF I was privately 'reprimanded' by none other than Gawd Vella for publicly calling-out (so-to-speak) a BS whiffin' Longtabber PE. Same guy? ;)

Truly, what a moroon! And I'd finally garnered some respect for the guy after watching him here on the JREF. A poultry grower? Cripes!

I'm losing track of my Bigfoot sightings... :D You never fail to make me laugh.

...no less than 100 BFRO expeditions for 2010 and a TV series going. There's a lot of people to sucker...

2010 Expeditions for Alumni Only (http://bfro.net/news/expeds_2010.asp) Do you think Matt Moneymaker is able to sleep at night because he operates under a notion akin to 'I'm a good person darnit because I take people to Bigfoot. Maybe Bigfoot isn't a breathing, foraging, fornicating biological entity, but what's a few 'minor details'. Over on the JREF they say Bigfoot is whatever one needs 'him Bigfoot' to be. So all I do is steer them in a direction, a little, for cash. Yes, I'm a good man!'? Or is it more like 'Chicks, man!'?

...I won't be commenting further on this matter in any threads here. Feel free to PM me if anyone would like more information.
Cool name. Are you Ronin on Bullshido? And while I totally respect and empathize with the 'collective' offense and anger over his fake military career, I'm also not so happy about it all as just another faked-out lettuce eating protoplasm. I don't understand that need some people possess that literally forces them to be 'dishonest' (in some way) in all communication that occurs during interactions with other humans. Maybe the fact his actual profession was so, say left field of his persona's profession that it made it easier for him to always remember where the lies started and stopped. Lying is easy, remembering the lies, not so much. He's definitely one of those that need some of that there genuine 'serious counseling'. :)

[kitakaze]

*deleted for wrong thread*

[kitakaze]

Do you think Matt Moneymaker is able to sleep at night because he operates under a notion akin to 'I'm a good person darnit because I take people to Bigfoot. Maybe Bigfoot isn't a breathing, foraging, fornicating biological entity, but what's a few 'minor details'. Over on the JREF they say Bigfoot is whatever one needs 'him Bigfoot' to be. So all I do is steer them in a direction, a little, for cash. Yes, I'm a good man!'? Or is it more like 'Chicks, man!'?

I think that any funny business that Moneymaker gets up to he rationalizes to himself in Woods & Wildmen mode. Maybe we bring a suit with us once in a blue moon, maybe we have some guys chucking pinecones while I'm watching football in the hotel, maybe we get some yellers and some campsite fiddlers, but it's all for the greater good, man. These expeditions help our organization to continue with the funding and research we really need to do. It's the research, man, the research. You know, that thing where we do the complete and total opposite of what a 12 year old girl could tell you is the right way to bring Bigfoot to the world would be. That thing where hey, yeah, we were surrounded by Bigfoots. They were herding us with pinecones. It was intense! Let's never, ever go back there again nor speak any further of it and go over to this completely unrelated place and do something else.

I think making Moneymaker feel bad about duping people is like trying to make a stage actor feel bad for their perfomance not being who they really are. He is there and he has a role to play. He is Bigfoot LTD and he is the person that brings the real ;);) Bigfoot to the people. I doubt now that Moneymaker does anything himself anymore. Don't say anything to me about anything. I'm oblivious and I do not condone any yada yada yada. Meanwhile, his guys know what do do and when when it's time to go play Woods & Wildmen in the dark with a group of true believers.

Bigfoot is really real. I'll take my pinecone on the shoulder, please. Stay away from the eyes. Not around the eyes, thanks.

[Drewbot]

quoting WGBH
"Then I felt like a static electricity shock, it felt like, and kind of.. have you been shocked before, it’s like your just frozen? All the hairs on your body are standing up, and you’re just stuck there, I guess."

"And then I started having some kind of muscle spasms or nervous spasms, really bad, and I kind of slumped down on the floor of the deer stand, and curled up in the fetal position."

"I was really groggy and kind of getting myself back together. I sat back up, and was like, what the hell was that? And I started to look out the deer stand again. Then all the sudden I started hearing something, like footsteps, like branches breaking, like leaves crunching, like bushes rattling. Like something was moving through the forest."[/

If this doesn't sound like an attack of Sleep Onset REM Sleep (SOREMS), with a bout of cataplexy, then I don't know what Narcolepsy is.

SOREMS: http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/full/161/2/426
Does not indicate Narcolepsy, could be Sleep Apnea.

CATAPLEXY: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cataplexy
Cataplexy manifests itself as muscular weakness which may range from a barely perceptible slackening of the facial muscles to the dropping of the jaw or head, weakness at the knees, or a total collapse. Usually the speech is slurred, vision is impaired (double vision, inability to focus), but hearing and awareness remain normal. These attacks are triggered by strong emotions such as exhilaration, anger, fear, surprise, orgasm, awe, embarrassment, and laughter. Cataplexy may be partial or complete, affecting a range of muscle groups, from those controlling facial features to (less commonly) those controlling the entire body. [3]

Arm weakness
Sagging jaw
Drooping head
Slumping of the shoulders
Slurred speech
Generalized weakness
Knee buckling
When cataplexy happens often, or cataplexy attacks make patients fall or drop things, it can have serious effects on normal activities. It can cause accidents and be embarrassing when it happens at work or with friends. For example, narcoleptics may not pick up babies because they are afraid they may drop them. [4]

[WGBH]

Sure, you can change my mind. Feel free to change my mind about which of the following of your own statements did or did not not happen...



No thanks, not going to change my mind.

[WGBH]

If this doesn't sound like an attack of Sleep Onset REM Sleep (SOREMS), with a bout of cataplexy, then I don't know what Narcolepsy is.

SOREMS: http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/full/161/2/426
Does not indicate Narcolepsy, could be Sleep Apnea.

CATAPLEXY: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cataplexy

The symptoms listed are not what I experienced.

[WGBH]

In regards to LT are you possitive that you have the right person? I contacted this person VIA the face book account and e-mail given by Parcher's link and he responded " I am not the person you are looking for". Also, the e-mail address does not match the e-mail address given by LT at the forum I admin.

[William Parcher]

William Parcher, I would doubt it was even a full minute. I would say that it felt longer than that, but I think that's probably a common sense that unusual things seem to last longer than they actually do. I was in the passenger seat, with my seatbelt on, but yes, I did sort of rotate my body (not fully) as it came up alongside the vehicle and saw it veer over to the ditchline on the opposite side of the road (drivers side).

I was *not*, by the way, wearing my glasses, which I do need to drive, and I'll right away admit that I cannot see long distances without them. From the front, I could because of the illumination (though I couldn't see it clearly). From the rear, when it was to the side and behind, my vision wouldn't allow me to see very far at all. Once it went down the ditchline, that was it for me.

ETA: when a passenger, I only wear my glasses when watching for a correct turnoff or sign, and then I take them off again. This is only relevant because we stopped to make sure we were not lost, and so I *had* had my glasses on. Sometimes after taking them off my vision is a bit blurrier than usual, just to fully disclose. I don't have good vision.


Yeah, I'm sure you saw this thing for less than a minute. Once it's past and then behind the truck you can't see it much if at all. It's very dark at that time in December. Without your glasses, it's probably no different than a tree trunk until it's pretty close anyway.

We were travelling between 40 and 45 mph when we first saw it. I was not driving at the time, as I said, but we had slowed down considerably by the time we finally spoke to one another.


At 40 mph you are travelling 59 feet per second. A minute at that speed would be 3540 feet. How far ahead would the headlamps illuminate?

Maybe you really only saw it for 5-10 seconds.

[mikeyx]

True story: As a mod on the BFF I was privately 'reprimanded' by none other than Gawd Vella for publicly calling-out (so-to-speak) a BS whiffin' Longtabber PE. Same guy? ;)

Truly, what a moroon! And I'd finally garnered some respect for the guy after watching him here on the JREF. A poultry grower? Cripes!



Dont you need to actually have to go into the woods to be footery gawd? He's wrong about that, he's backing the MRP despite overwhelming evidence they were hoaxed or added to one by covering it, he also had a role in censoring that subject, he was on the losing side of the Yakima fiasco, kinda makes one wonder....

[William Parcher]

In regards to LT are you possitive that you have the right person? I contacted this person VIA the face book account and e-mail given by Parcher's link and he responded " I am not the person you are looking for". Also, the e-mail address does not match the e-mail address given by LT at the forum I admin.


John, what is Longtabber PE up to these days?

[Drewbot]

and I kind of slumped down on the floor of the deer stand

Excuse me John, but that is exactly the symptom that indicates cataplexy.

Cataplexy manifests itself as muscular weakness which may range from a barely perceptible slackening of the facial muscles to the dropping of the jaw or head, weakness at the knees, or a total collapse

[WGBH]

Excuse me John, but that is exactly the symptom that indicates cataplexy.

Yes Drew, I collapsed but that was after feeling the OTHER symptoms I felt
which WERE NOT on the list.

[WGBH]

John, what is Longtabber PE up to these days?

No idea WP, I have not talked to him or received a response except for the one I mentioned.

[Drewbot]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4RNWE_enUS310US310&q=hallucination+dark+figure&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

John, outside the Bigfoot community, it seems, people acknowledge that hallucinations may be the cause of them seeing a dark creature. I think if you honestly looked into this, you would be able to put your demons to rest.

[kitakaze]

No thanks, not going to change my mind.

Huh? Change your mind? We're having a misfire here, so let's review...

I asked why we should consider you really saw Bigfoot more likely than having had a neurological experience and summarized some of the major indicators as described by you...

Why should anyone think you saw a real Bigfoot over having something nuerological happen when you say you felt a sensation like an electric shock, couldn't move, had spasms, went to the floor in a fetal position, felt then really groggy, heard footsteps unassociated to what you after saw, and had a weird smell in your nose for days that nobody else could smell? Wow, that's got neurological incident all over it. What rules out a false memory?

You then responded by telling me that those things I described were incorrect in some way...

Kitakaze,

If this is what you believe happened to me, I am sure I cannot change your mind. If you expect me to agree with it, I'm sorry not going to happen.

I responded by asking you to clarify which of your very own words from which my summary came were in correct...

Sure, you can change my mind. Feel free to change my mind about which of the following of your own statements did or did not not happen...

"Then I felt like a static electricity shock, it felt like, and kind of.. have you been shocked before, it’s like your just frozen? All the hairs on your body are standing up, and you’re just stuck there, I guess."

"And then I started having some kind of muscle spasms or nervous spasms, really bad, and I kind of slumped down on the floor of the deer stand, and curled up in the fetal position."

"I was really groggy and kind of getting myself back together. I sat back up, and was like, what the hell was that? And I started to look out the deer stand again. Then all the sudden I started hearing something, like footsteps, like branches breaking, like leaves crunching, like bushes rattling. Like something was moving through the forest."[/

You were saying that if I believed the things I summarized to be what really happened to you, that you were sure you couldn't change my mind, but that you would never agree to those things having happened.

So when I said you felt a sensation like an electric shock, couldn't move, had spasms, went to the floor in a fetal position, felt then really groggy, heard footsteps unassociated to what you after saw, and had a weird smell in your nose for days that nobody else could smell, what part of that description is in conflict with the words you yourself said about your experience?

I don't know what you're talking about with a terse "No thanks, not going to change my mind." Whaaa? It's not about you changing your mind. You are supposed to change my mind by clarifying which of your own statements that I summarized did not actually happen. You see, my summary comes straight from your words and it is your words from your own encounter story that really spell out something neurological.

So again, John, instead of just trying to wave it away, which of these things did not happen?

- Felt a sensation like an electric shock and couldn't move.

- Had spasms, went to the floor in a fetal position.

- Felt then really groggy.

- Soon after heard footsteps unassociated to what you after saw.

- Had a weird smell in your nose for days that nobody else could smell.

[WGBH]

So again, John, instead of just trying to wave it away, which of these things did not happen?

- Felt a sensation like an electric shock and couldn't move.

- Had spasms, went to the floor in a fetal position.

- Felt then really groggy.

- Soon after heard footsteps unassociated to what you after saw.

- Had a weird smell in your nose for days that nobody else could smell.
Kit,

OK, you lost me, but going to comment on what you have listed here in the order it occured:


- Had a weird smell in your nose for days that nobody else could smell.

The odor happened first. It made me have dry heaves. Yes it stayed in my nose for a day or two even after attempting to wash it out.


- Felt a sensation like an electric shock and couldn't move.

It felt like a strong STATIC electrical shock. It made my body hair tingle, My ears were ringing. It felt like my internal organs were getting trauma. It was difficult to breath. There was pain and dizzyness involved. I was totally aware of what was happening to me, I was NOT unconscious.


- Had spasms, went to the floor in a fetal position.

correct

- Felt then really groggy.

After a undetermined amount of time (best guess 5 mins, but I really have no idea how long), I felt well enough to sit up and shake off the effects of the other symptoms.


- Soon after heard footsteps unassociated to what you after saw.

After sitting there for a few mins. I heard the noises of something moving through the woods. Not only footsteps. I also heard twigs and branches snapping, bushes and trees rattling, leaves crunching. After hearing that for a few mins, the animal stepped out and I saw it.


There you go...

[William Parcher]

John, what is Longtabber PE up to these days?


No idea WP, I have not talked to him or received a response except for the one I mentioned.


I'll try a different way. John, what is Longtabber PE not up to these days?

[Óðinn]

Kit,

OK, you lost me, but going to comment on what you have listed here in the order it occured:


- Had a weird smell in your nose for days that nobody else could smell.

The odor happened first. It made me have dry heaves. Yes it stayed in my nose for a day or two even after attempting to wash it out.


- Felt a sensation like an electric shock and couldn't move.

It felt like a strong STATIC electrical shock. It made my body hair tingle, My ears were ringing. It felt like my internal organs were getting trauma. It was difficult to breath. There was pain and dizzyness involved. I was totally aware of what was happening to me, I was NOT unconscious.


- Had spasms, went to the floor in a fetal position.

correct

- Felt then really groggy.

After a undetermined amount of time (best guess 5 mins, but I really have no idea how long), I felt well enough to sit up and shake off the effects of the other symptoms.


- Soon after heard footsteps unassociated to what you after saw.

After sitting there for a few mins. I heard the noises of something moving through the woods. Not only footsteps. I also heard twigs and branches snapping, bushes and trees rattling, leaves crunching. After hearing that for a few mins, the animal stepped out and I saw it.


There you go...

John, are you suggesting that bigfoot "stink" caused all those physical responses? A chemical agent?

[WGBH]

John, are you suggesting that bigfoot "stink" caused all those physical responses? A chemical agent?

I am not suggesting anything. I am just telling what happened.

[Óðinn]

What do you think tho? Why else would you react that way after detecting an odour that made you dry heave and lasted for days? Sounds like some heavy-duty chemical knocked you on your arse.

ETA in other words the stinky sweat from a bigfoot caused you to hallucinate your sighting. ;)

[William Parcher]

...it was running with a kind of forward slant... It had arms longer than a human that swung down at its sides as it ran, not bent at the elbow like a person would run.

You know how people run with their arms up, bent at the elbow? This creature didn't do that. It's arms were at it's sides. They appeared to only sway--and although it was running upright, it appeared to lean more forward than a person would.


Running with a more forward lean than a person. Arms longer than a person and hanging to the side - not bent or swinging.

Sorry for the crude drawings. Were the arms hanging more like A or B?


http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/47ebc6a8.jpg

[WGBH]

What do you think tho? Why else would you react that way after detecting an odour that made you dry heave and lasted for days? Sounds like some heavy-duty chemical knocked you on your arse.

ETA in other words the stinky sweat from a bigfoot caused you to hallucinate your sighting. ;)

That is one theory (pheromones), but who knows? There is also the infra sound theory, but I am sick of theories. I am not a expert on either, so it would be brash for me to make that leap.

[Óðinn]

I think pheromones are a sexual attractant. A bigfoot's stink would be defensive, like a skunk's.

[Cimerian]

Hi, in the bfro forum there is people claiming they see bigfoots regularly. I was following a thread of someone asking how many bigfoots are around in total. One 'field researcher' claimed he identified around 9 specific individuals in Texas, and a few more somewhere else (don't remember the details). His claim was that he visited the same areas for years, thus he saw the same bigfoots more then once. I opened a new thread to ask the obvious question: if you see bigfoot more or less regularly, where are the pictures and the footages? I got an avalanche of angry responses telling how difficult it was to take pictures during the night, if you are scared, in the wild, etc, etc, etc. Finally the field researcher answered. He was friendly and basically told he indeed had good pictures, but the places where the pictures taken are private and he had legal obligations not to release the pictures to the public. Very convenient. He ended inviting me to experience bigfoot myself in one of their expeditions, so I think, based on the null evidence of his claims and the obvious monetary interest, as healthy sketicism, I would disregard his claims.

[WGBH]

I think pheromones are a sexual attractant. A bigfoot's stink would be defensive, like a skunk's.

See? you know more about it then I do.

[Óðinn]

See? you know more about it then I do.

That would be the preferred scenario, as opposed to a sleep hallucination, no?

[WGBH]

Hi, in the bfro forum there is people claiming they see bigfoots regularly. I was following a thread of someone asking how many bigfoots are around in total. One 'field researcher' claimed he identified around 9 specific individuals in Texas, and a few more somewhere else (don't remember the details). His claim was that he visited the same areas for years, thus he saw the same bigfoots more then once. I opened a new thread to ask the obvious question: if you see bigfoot more or less regularly, where are the pictures and the footages? I got an avalanche of angry responses telling how difficult it was to take pictures during the night, if you are scared, in the wild, etc, etc, etc. Finally the field researcher answered. He was friendly and basically told he indeed had good pictures, but the places where the pictures taken are private and he had legal obligations not to release the pictures to the public. Very convenient. He ended inviting me to experience bigfoot myself in one of their expeditions, so I think, based on the null evidence of his claims and the obvious monetary interest, as healthy sketicism, I would disregard his claims.

It's all a load of Bull. What you just stated is the typical response from ALL people claiming habituation and/or multiple sightings. The only thing missing was " I have proof but I am not sharing to protect the animals." Oy! :rolleyes:

[WGBH]

That would be the preferred scenario, as opposed to a sleep hallucination, no?

There is no preferred scenario. I was wide awake during my encounter.There is definitely more of a chance of mis-identification, then hallucination of any type.
A small chance.

[kitakaze]

Hi, in the bfro forum there is people claiming they see bigfoots regularly. I was following a thread of someone asking how many bigfoots are around in total. One 'field researcher' claimed he identified around 9 specific individuals in Texas, and a few more somewhere else (don't remember the details). His claim was that he visited the same areas for years, thus he saw the same bigfoots more then once. I opened a new thread to ask the obvious question: if you see bigfoot more or less regularly, where are the pictures and the footages? I got an avalanche of angry responses telling how difficult it was to take pictures during the night, if you are scared, in the wild, etc, etc, etc. Finally the field researcher answered. He was friendly and basically told he indeed had good pictures, but the places where the pictures taken are private and he had legal obligations not to release the pictures to the public. Very convenient. He ended inviting me to experience bigfoot myself in one of their expeditions, so I think, based on the null evidence of his claims and the obvious monetary interest, as healthy sketicism, I would disregard his claims.

Hi, Cimerian, and welcome to the JREF.

Yeah, that's about the way it goes, isn't it. Wild claim, requisite request for evidence, rain of excuses, oh, I have the pictures but there are legal obligations, you see. It's really quite fascinating and I never tire of seei*snore*

Really, footer people, let's try harder shall we? Put some swagger on it. Try something new. At least people like Bull$#!% Maker had the beans to do crazy things like make a Bigfoot hat and take pictures of that...

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=793

The whole copyright dreck is so tired. Gimme some plush toys and a polaroid and I'll do better than those clowns.

BTW, if you are not banned at the BFRO board now, you should be about sometime tomorrow. Kim Jong Moneymaker or somebody will take care of that.

[kitakaze]

It's all a load of Bull. What you just stated is the typical response from ALL people claiming habituation and/or multiple sightings. The only thing missing was " I have proof but I am not sharing to protect the animals." Oy! :rolleyes:

That's another good one. But hey, wait a second. While the always inevitable lack of proof is indicative of the nature of the claims, once you've claimed Bigfoot is real, what is so out there about claiming habituation? This is something we should absolutely expect with Bigfoot. Bigfoot should be habituated all over the place if they are real. Everything can be habituated from orangutans, chimps, gorillas, etc to humans. Oh, humans are a cinch. Give me some empty cans and half cigarette butts and I will catch you the Wild Woman of the Hood or the elusive West Coast Spotted Hobo.

If you are a big ape with ape eyes, nose, hands etc and you have a choice between pinecones and sticks for lunch or dumpster dining in the park, I think I know how that's going to turn out. If Bigfoot existed, food baiting would have gotten it long ago. If there are no Bigfoots and it's all just a social construct, you'd get decade after decade of nothing, which is exactly what we have.

[Cimerian]

Thanks Kitakaze. At the bfro they haven't banned me, but sometimes they have the bad habit of not posting me. They got specially aroused when with the purest innocence i asked about ufos and bigfoots. When i proposed that, in the light of the complete absence of fossils and other material evidence, they should support the paranormal-ufo-psychic-invisible bigfoot hypothesis instead, the simple didn't posted it.

[LuvGodzilla]

There is no preferred scenario. I was wide awake during my encounter.There is definitely more of a chance of mis-identification, then hallucination of any type.
A small chance.

My son was also wide awake during his encounter with the Lucky Charms Leprechaun during US Army Ranger Training under the conditions of sleep deprivation, stress, dehydration and caloric intake deprivation all while performing in rigorous mountain training on the move in high heat/humidity.

He is not afraid to tell his story as it happened and he is not the only Soldier to deal with this type of neurological affect under these conditions.

He knew he was hallucinating, but it didn't make the Lucky Charms Leprechaun go away. He hadn't eaten that cereal in years and has no clue why that specific character became his hallucination under stress.

Don't disregard that wide awake necessarily means coherent and that the mind doesn't play tricks while the body continues to move and believe it is fully awake.

My son doesn't feel a stigma has been attached to him because he had an interaction with a cereal character because he was well aware of his situation and the cause. He uses it to teach others.

[drapier]

My son was also wide awake during his encounter with the Lucky Charms Leprechaun during US Army Ranger Training under the conditions of sleep deprivation, stress, dehydration and caloric intake deprivation all while performing in rigorous mountain training on the move in high heat/humidity.


By any chance did the aforementioned leprechaun resemble this drawing:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_840745e9d5f86dfb0.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4416) ?

If so, he may have also been sighted in Alabama.

[JoeyDonuts]

In regards to LT are you possitive that you have the right person? I contacted this person VIA the face book account and e-mail given by Parcher's link and he responded " I am not the person you are looking for". Also, the e-mail address does not match the e-mail address given by LT at the forum I admin.

Grrrrr. Breaking my own rule here.

The claims given by the LT at this site and the LT at other sites are remarkably similar. Between the handle and the pervasive use of US Army SFG insignia in avatars, etc., I find it unlikely that we're dealing with separate people.

I'd invite him to come clear up any confusion, but he hasn't even logged on to this site since he was put up in lights on the POWNETWORK.

If I'm wrong about him, I await evidence of it.

However, much like BigFoot, evidence of his military career appears to exist only in the minds of people who really want to believe in it.

[WGBH]

That's another good one. But hey, wait a second. While the always inevitable lack of proof is indicative of the nature of the claims, once you've claimed Bigfoot is real, what is so out there about claiming habituation?

It's not the claim, it's the people who make the claims and the same excuses they use for not getting proof of the claims.

[ynot]

Yep I've seen one! - It only had one kidney and it was dowsing for another one. It then levitated into a waiting UFO and disappeared. :eye-poppi

[kitakaze]

It's not the claim, it's the people who make the claims and the same excuses they use for not getting proof of the claims.

Sure, OK. But why doesn't Bigfoot get habituated? Everything can be habituated. Give me a crate of Oreos and I could habituate you.

You see, think about cougars and black bears. Those are big North American mammals that have been around for a long time. They are really good at what they do. They have very specific evolutionary adaptions that allow them to tough it out in NA. Those animals have to be very successful to stick around and out compete other things like short-faced cave bears and cave lions and so on that are no longer around. But whoa, hey now, Bigfoot owns them. Bigfoot has a greater range than either of those animals. No super smell, no claws, no sharp teeth, no crazy night eyes. No torpor, no insulation, no fire, no tools, no fur. It's snowing, the ground is frozen solid, and you have feet like a human. When do your toes fall off?

So there you have a dumpster with some stale hot dog buns and half-eaten corn on the cob or some pinecones and sticks. What are you going to eat? I'll be having some half-eaten corn on the cob dogs, thanks. Throw the sticks on the fire that I can make because I'm a human.

The point is that I'm not saying it is impossible for Bigfoot to exist, but for Bigfoot to survive and thrive, it is going to have to do things that will invariably result in us having a type specimen for them like we do for every other NA mammal. What makes Bigfoot so special?

[WGBH]

Sure, OK. But why doesn't Bigfoot get habituated? Everything can be habituated. Give me a crate of Oreos and I could habituate you.

You see, think about cougars and black bears. Those are big North American mammals that have been around for a long time. They are really good at what they do. They have very specific evolutionary adaptions that allow them to tough it out in NA. Those animals have to be very successful to stick around and out compete other things like short-faced cave bears and cave lions and so on that are no longer around. But whoa, hey now, Bigfoot owns them. Bigfoot has a greater range than either of those animals. No super smell, no claws, no sharp teeth, no crazy night eyes. No torpor, no insulation, no fire, no tools, no fur. It's snowing, the ground is frozen solid, and you have feet like a human. When do your toes fall off?

So there you have a dumpster with some stale hot dog buns and half-eaten corn on the cob or some pinecones and sticks. What are you going to eat? I'll be having some half-eaten corn on the cob dogs, thanks. Throw the sticks on the fire that I can make because I'm a human.

The point is that I'm not saying it is impossible for Bigfoot to exist, but for Bigfoot to survive and thrive, it is going to have to do things that will invariably result in us having a type specimen for them like we do for every other NA mammal. What makes Bigfoot so special?

I agree, and yes you COULD habituate me with a crate of Oreos.

[CreatureSeeker]

The point is that I'm not saying it is impossible for Bigfoot to exist, but for Bigfoot to survive and thrive, it is going to have to do things that will invariably result in us having a type specimen for them like we do for every other NA mammal. What makes Bigfoot so special?

That's actually an excellent question. If these creatures are real, then they seem to have developed a behavior which includes giving humans humans wide berth. In other words, they don't seem to be confrontational. Whether this is a learned trait or instinctive is a mystery.

I'm seeing a glint of intelligence from you, Kit. Scary.:jaw-dropp

[kitakaze]

I agree, and yes you COULD habituate me with a crate of Oreos.

Don't think I've forgotten your Achilles Heel, John. :D

[kitakaze]

That's actually an excellent question. If these creatures are real, then they seem to have developed a behavior which includes giving humans humans wide berth. In other words, they don't seem to be confrontational. Whether this is a learned trait or instinctive is a mystery.

I'm seeing a glint of intelligence from you, Kit. Scary.:jaw-dropp

I'm flattered. Unfortunately the significance of the point doesn't seem to reveal itself to you as it does to me. Bigfoots have developed a behaviour of giving humans a wide berth? Yes, that's interesting, because they seem to keep being so utterly fail at it. I'll direct you to sugar's posts for a prime example of this. Seems that running towards an Ford F150 bearing down on you with the noise and the lights and the speed in the middle of Route 79 just past the East Arkansas Regional Unit prison just before coming into Marianna would register as a particularly significant brand of FAIL where giving humans a wide berth is concerned.

No, I would say that all the accounts piling up of Bigfoot coming into human habitation and doing all manner of decidely stupid and non-stealthy things would indicate a social construct more than any kind of real animal. You go right ahead and tell me how you separate the real reports from the foo foo, though.

[CreatureSeeker]

I'm flattered. Unfortunately the significance of the point doesn't seem to reveal itself to you as it does to me. Bigfoots have developed a behaviour of giving humans a wide berth? Yes, that's interesting, because they seem to keep being so utterly fail at it. I'll direct you to sugar's posts for a prime example of this. Seems that running towards an Ford F150 bearing down on you with the noise and the lights and the speed in the middle of Route 79 just past the East Arkansas Regional Unit prison just before coming into Marianna would register as a particularly significant brand of FAIL where giving humans a wide berth is concerned.

If you assume that Sugar actually had a bigfoot experience, then I guess you're right. I don't take things at face value.


No, I would say that all the accounts piling up of Bigfoot coming into human habitation and doing all manner of decidely stupid and non-stealthy things would indicate a social construct more than any kind of real animal. You go right ahead and tell me how you separate the real reports from the foo foo, though.
Like a report of anything, you have to use a reasonableness standard that is partly based on common sense and partly based on the credibility of the eyewitness. This is not just for bigfoot reports, but for all things.:jaw-dropp

[kitakaze]

If you assume that Sugar actually had a bigfoot experience, then I guess you're right. I don't take things at face value.


Like a report of anything, you have to use a reasonableness standard that is partly based on common sense and partly based on the credibility of the eyewitness. This is not just for bigfoot reports, but for all things.:jaw-dropp

That's fantastic. Since, then, that you describe yourself as a skeptic, and that if true, sugar's account is one of the more gobsmacking examples that flies in the face of everything you just said about Bigfoot giving humans a wide berth, you join in the investigation of her claim. Certainly as a member of a Bigfoot research orgainzation, the revelations that sugar's account could signify are of great importance to you.

[CreatureSeeker]

That's fantastic. Since, then, that you describe yourself as a skeptic, and that if true, sugar's account is one of the more gobsmacking examples that flies in the face of everything you just said about Bigfoot giving humans a wide berth, you join in the investigation of her claim. Certainly as a member of a Bigfoot research orgainzation, the revelations that sugar's account could signify are of great importance to you.

I'm not familiar with the details of Sugar's encounter except what you mentioned in the thread so I am not in a position to judge the accuracy of her encounter or her credibility. But if you say so...:covereyes

[kitakaze]

I'm not familiar with the details of Sugar's encounter except what you mentioned in the thread so I am not in a position to judge the accuracy of her encounter or her credibility. But if you say so...:covereyes

Go back to post #1428 a few pages back and go from there. There will be some heavy saquatch watching for you to investigate. Dig in.

[CreatureSeeker]

Go back to post #1428 a few pages back and go from there. There will be some heavy saquatch watching for you to investigate. Dig in.

Sounds scary! LOL!:jaw-dropp

[kitakaze]

Sounds scary! LOL!:jaw-dropp

Can I take the LOL and emoticon as an expression of dismissal or disinterest? Have you really looked at what has been posted here about sugar's encounter? Or are you just brushing it off in "scoftic" fashion. Let's see...

- 2006

- Multiple witness. The second looks to be joining us soon.

- Alleged witness doesn't appear to have much interest in talkiing about Bigfoot.

- Detailed description given congruent with many accounts of Bigfoot.

Exactly what is the cause of trite dismissal that you were just telling me is a bad thing to do? Is this the open-mindedness to which you referred?

[CreatureSeeker]

Can I take the LOL and emoticon as an expression of dismissal or disinterest? Have you really looked at what has been posted here about sugar's encounter? Or are you just brushing it off in "scoftic" fashion. Let's see...

- 2006

- Multiple witness. The second looks to be joining us soon.

- Alleged witness doesn't appear to have much interest in talkiing about Bigfoot.

- Detailed description given congruent with many accounts of Bigfoot.

Exactly what is the cause of trite dismissal that you were just telling me is a bad thing to do? Is this the open-mindedness to which you referred?

I haven't dismissed anything. More presumption on your part?

[Marduk]

Exactly what is the cause of trite dismissal that you were just telling me is a bad thing to do? Is this the open-mindedness to which you referred?
I think his brain fell out the gap
:p

[CreatureSeeker]

I think his brain fell out the gap
:p

Clever, but in typical marduk fashion, your comment does not contribute to the discussion. Very disappointing.

[Marduk]

Clever, but in typical marduk fashion, your comment does not contribute to the discussion. Very disappointing.

thats rich, were all waiting for you to contribute to any discussion,
is it going to happen this month or should I come back next year ?

[kitakaze]

For John/WGBH,

Just a little something for perspective. A recent thread on sleep paralysis and vivid hallucinations...

A weird experience with sleep paralysis (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=160784)

[Drewbot]

WGBH-
You claim you were not sleepy. However, one of the main reasons that sleep paralysis(combined with hallucinations) is so freaking scary, is that the victim believes themselves to be awake. Ask anyone who has experienced this on a regular basis, they will tell you that in a typical occurrence, they believe something is in the room/area with them, they try to move, or yell out at the creature, they are unable to do so, and believe the creature is paralyzing them. In reality, it is the bodies natural REM sleep paralysis intruding into the pre-sleep stage of rest. The mind is fully functional (seemingly), and the body is trapped in REM sleep paralysis. Does this sound plausible in your case?

[WGBH]

For John/WGBH,

Just a little something for perspective. A recent thread on sleep paralysis and vivid hallucinations...

A weird experience with sleep paralysis (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=160784)

Thanks Kit,

They have you tube blocked at my work. I will watch it tonight at home.

[Drewbot]

Thanks Kit,

They have you tube blocked at my work. I will watch it tonight at home.

It's just a thread here a JREF John. Not a video.

[WGBH]

It's just a thread here a JREF John. Not a video.

Oh, I already read that a couple days ago.

[kitakaze]

I would like to know something. You've got an animal like so...

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/4f7e3881.jpghttp://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_217054a23021ae5fa0.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=16558)

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1133

Which is in Salt Fork State Park, Ohio smashing windows on ranger houses like this one...

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1225

And in Arkansas running in the middle of the fricking road towards F150 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/%2797-%2700_Ford_F-150_Extended_Cab.jpg)'s on Route 79 just past a prison....

And is hanging around hunter's blinds in North Carolina in front of people with guns...

And this is not a known and catalogued species why?

[mikeyx]

I would like to know something. You've got an animal like so...

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/4f7e3881.jpghttp://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_217054a23021ae5fa0.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=16558)

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1133

Which is in Salt Fork State Park, Ohio smashing windows on ranger houses like this one...

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1225

And in Arkansas running in the middle of the fricking road towards F150 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/%2797-%2700_Ford_F-150_Extended_Cab.jpg)'s on Route 79 just past a prison....

And is hanging around hunter's blinds in North Carolina in front of people with guns...

And this is not a known and catalogued species why?

You're basing your size on a cutout of the Sasquatch from "Alpha Flight" a character of Marvel Comics?

interesting..... Silly even

[kitakaze]

You're basing your size on a cutout of the Sasquatch from "Alpha Flight" a character of Marvel Comics?

interesting..... Silly even

On Dr. Walter Langkowski, yes. John said it was a match for the height and proportions, thus I included it.

[WGBH]

On Dr. Walter Langkowski, yes. John said it was a match for the height and proportions, thus I included it.

Nope, looks a bit too wide. And I told him it was silly months ago when he first posted it.

[kitakaze]

Nope, looks a bit too wide. And I told him it was silly months ago when he first posted it.

Right...

So, you guys think I saw a member of Alpha Flight that was vacationing in the Dismal Swamp? :D

Seriously, I am not following where this line of questioning is headed. I said 5 or 6 ft wide. So maybe it was 5 1/2? Guys the point I was trying to make is that this animal was MASSIVE.

If you are just using the comic character as a size reference then yes it was that big.

[kitakaze]

The 6 inch difference between 9x6 ft Bigfoot and 9x5½ Bigfoot is very important where establishing the zoological reality of Bigfoot is concerned. 9x5½ you're sleek, you're smooth, you're stealthy, you're uncatalogued by science.

9x6? That's no good, Tiny. You're tranqued and tagged.

[WGBH]

Kitakaze, Drew and Vort,

It's sad that you felt a reason to push this so far but not unexpected. I guess you can't get a hint that I did not want this discussion about Bigfoot to head in that direction. OK here goes. I started seeing a psychologist regarding my nightmare issues months ago. I have already mentioned it here before.

This man has a Diploma on his wall that makes it his profession to diagnose my condition and subscribe treatment for it. What that diagnosis was, is not your concern. Suffice it to say my nightmares are not a result of any of the conditions theorized here. If you want to talk about my alleged (your words not mine) Bigfoot encounter or even hurl insults at me, fine that is not a problem. But my medical treatment is not your business or apparently not your concern.

[CptColumbo]

I wear a size 13 shoe, does that qualify me as a Bigfoot? or do I just have bigfeet?



I'm pretty hairy too.

[WGBH]

Everyone,

Can I get a opinion on this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNob1az0Eis&feature=player_embedded#

[kitakaze]

Kitakaze, Drew and Vort,

It's sad that you felt a reason to push this so far but not unexpected. I guess you can't get a hint that I did not want this discussion about Bigfoot to head in that direction. OK here goes. I started seeing a psychologist regarding my nightmare issues months ago. I have already mentioned it here before.

Sad that we decided to push so far the idea that you had a neurological event? Whaaa? It's harrassment, is what it is? :dqueen

John, please select the option that you feel was most likely (which I know will not be #1, but that must be included for completeness).

1) You had a neurological experience, sleep-related and or false memory and never actually saw Bigfoot.

2) Bigfoot hit you with an infrasound blast which frazzled you all up, made you spasm, and hit the floor in a fetal position. Once it incapacitated you it moved over to the mulberry bush on which it wanted to feed 50 yards away.

3) Bigfoot put the stink on you from some type of special glands it has evolved which frazzled you all up, made you spasm, and hit the floor in a fetal position. Once it incapacitated you it moved over to the mulberry bush on which it wanted to feed 50 yards away.

4) There was an unknown agent, wholly unrelated to the moment in which you encountered Bigfoot, which frazzled you all up, made you spasm, and hit the floor in a fetal position.

5) You had some type of seizure, wholly unrelated to the moment in which you encountered Bigfoot, which frazzled you all up, made you spasm, and hit the floor in a fetal position.

This man has a Diploma on his wall that makes it his profession to diagnose my condition and subscribe treatment for it. What that diagnosis was, is not your concern. Suffice it to say my nightmares are not a result of any of the conditions theorized here. If you want to talk about my alleged (your words not mine) Bigfoot encounter or even hurl insults at me, fine that is not a problem. But my medical treatment is not your business or apparently not your concern.

I need you to go right now, John, and put up the quotes of where Vort, Drew, and myself have hurled insults at you. You need to go right now and quote where anyone of us has been pushing you to divulge what your psychologist is telling you. Getting huffy and acting hurt does not mean we are insulting you or prying into a patient/doctor confidentiality.

[kitakaze]

Everyone,

Can I get a opinion on this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNob1az0Eis&feature=player_embedded#

Ugh. Sylvanic theatre foo foo. Don't tell me you don't know about Sylvanic? I wouldn't even call it a hoax. Performance art, maybe. I'm surprised it's still around. We can't tell you anything because the species will be annihilated...

:dl:

[WGBH]

Ugh. Sylvanic theatre foo foo. Don't tell me you don't know about Sylvanic? I wouldn't even call it a hoax. Performance art, maybe. I'm surprised it's still around. We can't tell you anything because the species will be annihilated...

:dl:

Ok, you know more then me. Never heard of them.

[Bitter Monk]

Sure, OK. But why doesn't Bigfoot get habituated? Everything can be habituated. Give me a crate of Oreos and I could habituate you.

I had to break my self imposed lurker status to say that is one of the greatest lines ever written from either side of the debate, anywhere, on the subject. Bravo sir.

[kitakaze]

I had to break my self imposed lurker status to say that is one of the greatest lines ever written from either side of the debate, anywhere, on the subject. Bravo sir.

I am honoured to have been the cause for you decloaking, Bitter Monk. Feel free to sig that. I know how serious Sasquatch Watch are about their oreos. There is even video of Bruce "The Stomach"/Creature Seeker going after John's cookies. Do you want to die, man?

[WGBH]

Sad that we decided to push so far the idea that you had a neurological event? Whaaa? It's harrassment, is what it is? :dqueen

John, please select the option that you feel was most likely (which I know will not be #1, but that must be included for completeness).

1) You had a neurological experience, sleep-related and or false memory and never actually saw Bigfoot.

2) Bigfoot hit you with an infrasound blast which frazzled you all up, made you spasm, and hit the floor in a fetal position. Once it incapacitated you it moved over to the mulberry bush on which it wanted to feed 50 yards away.

3) Bigfoot put the stink on you from some type of special glands it has evolved which frazzled you all up, made you spasm, and hit the floor in a fetal position. Once it incapacitated you it moved over to the mulberry bush on which it wanted to feed 50 yards away.

4) There was an unknown agent, wholly unrelated to the moment in which you encountered Bigfoot, which frazzled you all up, made you spasm, and hit the floor in a fetal position.

5) You had some type of seizure, wholly unrelated to the moment in which you encountered Bigfoot, which frazzled you all up, made you spasm, and hit the floor in a fetal position.



I need you to go right now, John, and put up the quotes of where Vort, Drew, and myself have hurled insults at you. Youu need to go right now and quote where anyone of us has been pushing you to divulge what your psychologist is telling you. Getting huffy and acting hurt does not mean we are insulting you or prying into a patient/doctor confidentiality.

First Part: I have described to you what I felt, and what I saw. Run with it in whatever direction you wish, just don't expect me to participate in that direction. I am used to paying a professional for that.

I never meant to infer insults hurled at me. I meant that I would prefer that instead of the armchair psychology direction we were headed in.

I'm not hurt or huffy.

[WGBH]

I had to break my self imposed lurker status to say that is one of the greatest lines ever written from either side of the debate, anywhere, on the subject. Bravo sir.

It was a very funny line and very true as you can see from my response.

Why the self imposed lurking Sam? Tell everyone here your opinions on my encounter or better yet we can discuss yours. Join in on the fun.

[WGBH]

I am honoured to have been the cause for you decloaking, Bitter Monk. Feel free to sig that. I know how serious Sasquatch Watch are about their oreos. There is even video of Bruce "The Stomach"/Creature Seeker going after John's cookies. Do you want to die, man?

Yep, that bastard stole my oreos and we have the proof.

[kitakaze]

Ok, you know more then me. Never heard of them.

Todd Standing is the the consumate Bigfoot sheister. He makes the requisite crappy video of a guy in a suit, obscured, brief, and shaky and then says yeah, that's the bad footage. The good footage is in the movie I will be premiering. I invite all naysayers to come and see this. Many, many naysayers please come to my movie.:rolleyes:

John, here is your intro to the guano that is Sylvanic...

http://www.sylvanic.com/ (http://www.sylvanic.com/)

ZVLovQ1hWHE

A movie, a novel, the whole enchilada.

Here's some Sylvanic acid for you. They need a skeptic...

OUR NEXT SKEPTIC

We need a skeptic to volunteer to work with our team and see Bigfoot for themselves. Ideally, we would like to have someone from one of the major neworks like CNN or the BBC to be our skeptical journalist. You don’t need money or funding; in fact we would have to insist on supplying everything from your clothing to your supplies.

It doesn't get more real than this: our chosen participant will be surviving a long and arduous expedition into the depths of the Rocky Mountains. Are you in shape enough to jog and hike in extreme altitudes? Once we leave there will be no turning back. And these animals are real. Gigantapithicus males are almost 3 meters tall and weigh in excess of 400kgs. We know almost nothing else about them. If we are in the wrong place at the wrong time, your life my very well be at risk. Can you imagine what it would be like to get charged by a gorilla like Dianne Fossy experienced? Well imagine an animal over twice the size of a gorilla and likely twice as strong.

You need to be someone that can handle the most extreme of external elements. This includes rock climbing, crossing white water rapids, keeping your head when and if we have a grizzly bear charge us, disciplined to the point of spending hours rubbing yourself down with desensitizing fluids.

Anyone taking you on an expedition like this that would guarantee your safety would be a liar. Therefore I will tell you outright: If you come on this expedition you are MOST CERTAINLY risking you life. Before I take any new team members on expedition, I will show them what happened to the last people that did not heed my warnings.

This is the wisdom of a First Nations elder that has been instructing me on the ways of wilderness survival:

If you are not strong you will die.

If you get sick you will die.

If you get injured you will die.

If you do have wisdom you will die.

If you do not abide by the rules of our people without question, you will die.

And if you are strong, wise, never get injured or sick, and abide by the rules of our people without question you still may die.

In the North American wilderness, bears, mountain lions and wolves kill to survive everyday. Many of their victims are people that cross into their homes. Virtually no one ever goes into the woods as deep as we are going. And these predators, as dangerous as they are, are the least of our worries.


ME, ME, ME!!!

[WGBH]

Todd Standing is the the consumate Bigfoot sheister. He makes a the requisite crappy video of a guy in a suit, obscured, brief, and shaky and then says yeah, that's the bad footage. The good footage is in the movie I will be premiering. I invite all naysayers to come and see this. Many, many naysayers please come to my movie.:rolleyes:

John, here is your intro to the guano that is Sylvanic...

http://www.sylvanic.com/ (http://www.sylvanic.com/)

ZVLovQ1hWHE

A movie, a novel, the whole enchilada.

Here's some Sylvanic acid for you. They need a skeptic...



ME, ME, ME!!!

You would be perfect for the job. Thanks for the info also.

[kitakaze]

First Part: I have described to you what I felt, and what I saw. Run with it in whatever direction you wish, just don't expect me to participate in that direction. I am used to paying a professional for that.

I never meant to infer insults hurled at me. I meant that I would prefer that instead of the armchair psychology direction we were headed in.

I'm not hurt or huffy.

OK, I understand. I just prefer we don't have any unnecessary drama. I don't want to hurl anything at you, insults or otherwise, nor do I want to pry into what your psychologist tells you. I don't think he/she could confirm/deny whether or not you saw Bigfoot more than anyone else can.

Now then, moving on. Could you please make a selection from options 1-5 in my previous post? I know it's not #1, so let's see what makes the most sense to you.

[Bitter Monk]

I am honoured to have been the cause for you decloaking, Bitter Monk. Feel free to sig that.

I would be pleased to do so but I'm having a bit of trouble with the control panel. Perhaps it is my uber-noob status.

Why the self imposed lurking Sam? Tell everyone here your opinions on my encounter or better yet we can discuss yours. Join in on the fun.

John I have to admit to being ignorant regarding your encounter. Is there a link you could provide to it?

[kitakaze]

Yep, that bastard stole my oreos and we have the proof.

:D

O - R - E - O, look at that bastard go...

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6997623895

[kitakaze]

I would be pleased to do so but I'm having a bit of trouble with the control panel. Perhaps it is my uber-noob status.

User control panel > edit avatar (under settings & options). Otherwise you might have to post 15 or 20 times. Are you going to use the same avatar?

John I have to admit to being ignorant regarding your encounter. Is there a link you could provide to it?

BFRO Report (http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=3335)

'Round the mulberry bush. (http://blogsquatcher.blogspot.com/2009/04/round-mulberry-bush.html)

[WGBH]

John, please select the option that you feel was most likely (which I know will not be #1, but that must be included for completeness).

1) You had a neurological experience, sleep-related and or false memory and never actually saw Bigfoot.

2) Bigfoot hit you with an infrasound blast which frazzled you all up, made you spasm, and hit the floor in a fetal position. Once it incapacitated you it moved over to the mulberry bush on which it wanted to feed 50 yards away.

3) Bigfoot put the stink on you from some type of special glands it has evolved which frazzled you all up, made you spasm, and hit the floor in a fetal position. Once it incapacitated you it moved over to the mulberry bush on which it wanted to feed 50 yards away.

4) There was an unknown agent, wholly unrelated to the moment in which you encountered Bigfoot, which frazzled you all up, made you spasm, and hit the floor in a fetal position.

5) You had some type of seizure, wholly unrelated to the moment in which you encountered Bigfoot, which frazzled you all up, made you spasm, and hit the floor in a fetal position.



Just a note: On #3 I was not incapacitated when it stepped out and ate at the bush. I was sitting up and watching.

Out of all of those choices, IMO the most unlikely would be #4.

IMO #1 and #5 are a small possibility. Not so much to the JREF.

#2 and #3 are the two main theories from footers.

I think you forgot the possibility that it was a misidentified 9x5 bear. :D

I am sure your response could be a chapter in a book , but I will humor you.

[Tizzy]

I would like to know something. You've got an animal like so...

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_217054a23021ae5fa0.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=16558)


Good god, even if such a horror existed in that form it doesn't seem like it really evolved to walk dense forests. Besides, it's just an outline of an X-Men character, with dramatic hair added... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_Can_Stop_the_Juggernaut!

[WGBH]

John I have to admit to being ignorant regarding your encounter. Is there a link you could provide to it?
Sam,

William Parcher was kind enough to put links to it on Page 1, Post 32 of this thread.

[kitakaze]

Just a note: On #3 I was not incapacitated when it stepped out and ate at the bush. I was sitting up and watching.

Out of all of those choices, IMO the most unlikely would be #4.

IMO #1 and #5 are a small possibility. Not so much to the JREF.

#2 and #3 are the two main theories from footers.

I think you forgot the possibility that it was a misidentified 9x5 bear. :D

I am sure your response could be a chapter in a book , but I will humor you.

Misidentifying a bear would go under false memory, I think. Numbers #2 and #3 are crazy foo foo, AFAIC.

So let's discuss #4. What external agent that did not come from a Bigfoot do you think could floor you just prior to seeing a Bigfoot?

Ever look into people having similar seizures while in the Pasquotank River area?

Also, how coincidental do you think it is that you have a seizure type experience caused by something else just before you see a massive beast unknown to science?

[Bitter Monk]

User control panel > edit avatar (under settings & options). Otherwise you might have to post 15 or 20 times. Are you going to use the same avatar?

It must be my noob status then because I didn't see those options. And yes, no sense in changing avatars now after all this time.

John who was the investigator that handled your BFRO report? I'm guessing since the investigator comments aren't included in the report it is someone no longer with the BFRO?

[WGBH]

Misidentifying a bear would go under false memory, I think. Numbers #2 and #3 are crazy foo foo, AFAIC.

So let's discuss #4. What external agent that did not come from a Bigfoot do you think could floor you just prior to seeing a Bigfoot?

Ever look into people having similar seizures while in the Pasquotank River area?

Also, how coincidental do you think it is that you have a seizure type experience caused by something else just before you see a massive beast unknown to science?

You may be right about #2 and #3, but there is documented use of both by known animals.

I have no idea what could cause that. Possibly some of the things you listed.

No, I never have asked about seizures near the Dismal. I have only been in the area twice. Who would you suggest I ask if I return again?

I never thought that the two things (sighting and sickness) were related at all until i learned of the theories from footers. In fact I barely mentioned sickness in my BFRO report.

[WGBH]

It must be my noob status then because I didn't see those options. And yes, no sense in changing avatars now after all this time.

John who was the investigator that handled your BFRO report? I'm guessing since the investigator comments aren't included in the report it is someone no longer with the BFRO?

It was Mary Green who called and did my interview. The report posted is what I wrote. I also have wondered why no investigator comments were added.

[kitakaze]

You may be right about #2 and #3, but there is documented use of both by known animals.

Show me a mammal that knocks out another animal with infrasound. Dolphins using echolocation clicks from their bulbous heads does not count, and there is no proof that they can stun fish in this manner. In any case, that's not infrasound.

And just how does an ape evolve that?

Show me an animal that knocks out other animals with chemical stink attacks.

And just how does an ape evolve that?

No, I never have asked about seizures near the Dismal. I have only been in the area twice. Who would you suggest I ask if I return again?

Just call them. I gave you the number, remember? Ask them if they've had any reports of people smelling a terrible stink that incapacitated them. Say "I don't know, like a swamp gas or something?" if you feel embarrassed.

I never thought that the two things (sighting and sickness) were related at all until i learned of the theories from footers. In fact I barely mentioned it in my BFRO report.

Let's continue with the premise that they are not related, since Bigfoot putting you to the ground spasming with either infrasound or stink is crazy talk. Don't you find it to be some kind of bizarre coincidence that you have a type of seizure that you've never had in your life and then you see a massive beast unknown to science? Had a seizure, then saw Bigfoot - crazy timing, no?

[Bitter Monk]

I never thought that the two things (sighting and sickness) were related at all until i learned of the theories from footers. In fact I barely mentioned it in my BFRO report.

Perhaps you shouldn't make the connection. When I was 20 I had a non-epileptic seizure. At the time it happened it was one of the most frightening things I'd ever experienced, primarily because I had no idea what was happening to me. Your recounting of the experience from the Blogsquatcher article is very similar to the symptoms I experienced including the nausea preceding the event. I'd be curious to know if you also experienced any sharp increases or decreases in your perceived body temperature or sudden profuse sweating.

The reason I'm sharing this is because my NES happened while I was in a restaurant. Your experience happened in a tree stand in the woods. For me there was no reason to think that anything other than a medical event had happened to me (although I was completely mystified myself). There was nobody that was going to come along and make me think anything to the contrary. In your case you yourself said that you didn't originally associate the experience with what followed it. It wasn't until you were primed by the knowledge that there were those who think that bigfoot can "zap" a person that you began to consider the possibility that one was related to the other.

[Cimerian]

Thanks Kitakaze for sharing the silvanic challenge with us. I wonder what is Gigantapithicus, I know about the Gigantopithecus, which is extinct, lived in Asia, and left a few teeth. No one knows really how tall it was or even if it was biped, as biggie is supposed to be.

[WGBH]

Show me a mammal that knocks out another animal with infrasound. Dolphins using echolocation clicks from their bulbous heads does not count, and there is no proof that they can stun fish in this manner. In any case, that's not infrasound.

And just how does an ape evolve that?

Show me an animal that knocks out other animals with chemical stink attacks.

And just how does an ape evolve that?



Just call them. I gave you the number, remember? Ask them if they've had any reports of people smelling a terrible stink that incapacitated them. Say "I don't know, like a swamp gas or something?" if you feel embarrassed.



Let's continue with the premise that they are not related, since Bigfoot putting you to the ground spasming with either infrasound or stink is crazy talk. Don't you find it to be some kind of bizarre coincidence that you have a type of seizure that you've never had in your life and then you see a massive beast unknown to science? Had a seizure, then saw Bigfoot - crazy timing, no?
I found these by using google,

Tigers can stun prey with infrasound. It is thought that Lions can also, but it has not been studied like it has with tigers. Elephants can use it to communicate for miles. Also used by whales, Giraffe and Sumatran Rhino for communication.

In Gorillas, pheromones or chemical emissions provide information about an individual's health and reproductive status and possibly about the identity, age, and gender of the individual.

Far fetched? sure, but who knows?

Sure it was bizarre, all of it is bizarre.

[WGBH]

Perhaps you shouldn't make the connection. When I was 20 I had a non-epileptic seizure. At the time it happened it was one of the most frightening things I'd ever experienced, primarily because I had no idea what was happening to me. Your recounting of the experience from the Blogsquatcher article is very similar to the symptoms I experienced including the nausea preceding the event. I'd be curious to know if you also experienced any sharp increases or decreases in your perceived body temperature or sudden profuse sweating.

The reason I'm sharing this is because my NES happened while I was in a restaurant. Your experience happened in a tree stand in the woods. For me there was no reason to think that anything other than a medical event had happened to me (although I was completely mystified myself). There was nobody that was going to come along and make me think anything to the contrary. In your case you yourself said that you didn't originally associate the experience with what followed it. It wasn't until you were primed by the knowledge that there were those who think that bigfoot can "zap" a person that you began to consider the possibility that one was related to the other.

Maybe I should not make the connection. It was just a attempt at full disclosure of what happened that day. I do not remember feeling hot and Sweaty, but of course it is possible.

Do you remember if you hallucinated after your seizure? Did you lose consciousness? I was dizzy, in pain and my ears were ringing, but I was conscious and remember trying to figure out what was happening.

[Bitter Monk]

I experienced intense dizziness shortly before I lost consciousness. In fact it was so intense I let myself fall in a controlled fashion so to speak because I knew I was about to go down hard if I didn't do something. During the actual seizure I lost consciousness in the practical sense but retained enough consciousness to figure out that the reason my head was hurting was because I was pounding it against the floor and I needed to cover my head up in order to protect it. When I came to I was in a fetal position with my arms wrapped around my head. The post seizure experience for me was typical of those who experience non-epileptic seizures, i.e. I stood up and dusted myself off without experiencing any lingering symptoms.

[tube]

There are multiple causes for misidentifications, some of them more prosaic than absence seizures or hypnopompic hallucinations. In some cases it's inanimate objects misperceived as animate creatures.

It's happened to me:

http://orgoneresearch.com/2009/11/27/perceptual-illusion-and-cryptozoology/

[Bitter Monk]

There are multiple causes for misidentifications, some of them more prosaic than absence seizures...

I thought that was a typo and you meant absinthe seizure until I googled it.

[RayG]

It was Mary Green who called and did my interview.

There's only one outcome for me when I think of Mary Green as a bigfoot investigator... I just can't help it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5BKX3QCjk0).

RayG

[tube]

Years ago when I was a pharmacist, I witnessed a woman have an absence seizure as she stood before me. I spoke to her, but got no response. After a few moments, her daughter came up to her and literally "shook her out of it", and she came to.

[Óðinn]

Show me an animal that knocks out other animals with chemical stink attacks.

Skunk, some insects, a few others.

And just how does an ape evolve that?
Any way it wants to.

Just call them. I gave you the number, remember? Ask them if they've had any reports of people smelling a terrible stink that incapacitated them. Say "I don't know, like a swamp gas or something?" if you feel embarrassed.
A stink attack would surely affect the recipient based on how close to the source they were. More diluted, the farther away, etc. Apparently, John was quite close to this animal, and dry heaving from the smell. I've dry heaved from a skunk.

ETA so when was this BF "stink" thing first documented anyway? Odd thing to make up, IMO.

[kitakaze]

Tigers can stun prey with infrasound. It is thought that Lions can also, but it has not been studied like it has with tigers. Elephants can use it to communicate for miles. Also used by whales, Giraffe and Sumatran Rhino for communication.

I would like to see some actual scientific documentation showing that tigers can stun prey with infrasound or do anything that would account for your seizure.

This is not it...

Ms4KFAjDPB8

Hey, look. Tcjrsbigfoot infrasound foo foo...

w7H0HUdQ9sA

Bigfoot frazzled his GPS, too.

In Gorillas, pheromones or chemical emissions provide information about an individual's health and reproductive status and possibly about the identity, age, and gender of the individual.

Far fetched? sure, but who knows?

Sure it was bizarre, all of it is bizarre.

Yes, pheromones are real. Pheromones giving you seizures as a defensive or attack function is not.

[WGBH]

I would like to see some actual scientific documentation showing that tigers can stun prey with infrasound or do anything that would account for your seizure.

Yes, pheromones are real. Pheromones giving you seizures as a defensive or attack function is not.

So, you think a tiger stunned me with infrasound? :D I would like to see it documented too. I looked but I could not find any video.

Good night everyone. talk more in the AM.

[kitakaze]

Skunk, some insects, a few others.

Óðinn, skunk spray from the anal glands is foul for sure. It is a sulfur mixture containing butyl thiols. The smell is powerful, but it is in no way neurological. The fact that great horned owls have no problem with skunks is due to the fact that they have pretty much no sense of smell. I would like to see an example of an animal that can emit a stink that can put you into an actual seizure as John described.

Any way it wants to.

This is not how evolution works. By what mechanism does an ape evolve a gland that can emit a stink to incapacitate prey, rivals, or predators?

A stink attack would surely affect the recipient based on how close to the source they were. More diluted, the farther away, etc. Apparently, John was quite close to this animal, and dry heaving from the smell. I've dry heaved from a skunk.

Dry heaving, yes. John was enclosed in a hunting blind. Still does not explain a seizure.

Check this...

Jl7HmfGar60

[Óðinn]

Óðinn, skunk spray from the anal glands is foul for sure. It is a sulfur mixture containing butyl thiols. The smell is powerful, but it is in no way neurological. The fact that great horned owls have no problem with skunks is due to the fact that they have pretty much no sense of smell. I would like to see an example of an animal that can emit a stink that can put you into an actual seizure as John described.
I would say that the effects of oleoresin capsicum was neurological, as well as any number of poisons, which are used as chemical defenses by some animals/insects/plants. The olfactory is the quickest chemical delivery system there is. Air borne chemicals seem like a dandy defense. So where did this stinky BF theory come from?

This is not how evolution works. By what mechanism does an ape evolve a gland that can emit a stink to incapacitate prey, rivals, or predators?
By what mechanism did a skunk evolve their stink? How did a BF evolve a tapetum lucidum? ;) Our current knowledge base of evolution can't answer these.

Dry heaving, yes. John was enclosed in a hunting blind. Still does not explain a seizure.
If that is what he had. Maybe the whole thing was made up.

[kitakaze]

I would say that the effects of oleoresin capsicum was neurological, as well as any number of poisons, which are used as chemical defenses by some animals/insects/plants. The olfactory is the quickest chemical delivery system there is. Air borne chemicals seem like a dandy defense.

You mean this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Pepper_spray_Demonstration.jpg)? What animal emits pepper spray? Certainly John did not exhibit the effects of pepper spray.

So where did this stinky BF theory come from?

That Bigfoot stinks or that the stink could knock you out? The stinky Bigfoot has been around since before the PGF. Meldrum in his LMS book tried to refute the notion by saying it wasn't statistically significant in reports.

By what mechanism did a skunk evolve their stink?

The mechanism that accounts for the fact that skunks are related to Mustelidae (ferrets, weasels, etc) which have similar though less developed glands.

How did a BF evolve a tapetum lucidum? ;)

ROFL!

If that is what he had. Maybe the whole thing was made up.

That is always possible, but whether a false memory, hallucination, or really Bigfoot, I feel John did see something.

[decojuicer]

I would say that the effects of oleoresin capsicum was neurological, as well as any number of poisons, which are used as chemical defenses by some animals/insects/plants.

O.C. Pepper spray is certainly not neurological. I have been sprayed twice(once on purpose for training reasons, and once by accident by a very intoxicated friend). O.C. Pepper spray works on the mucus membranes and is nothing more than a severe irritant. Oleoresin capsicum is in most kitchens and restaurants in this country. It's the active ingredient in cayene pepper sauce likes Tabasco or Frank's Redhot.

If you've ever been slicing hot peppers like jalepeno's or cayene's, or something similar, and wiped your eyes or nose without washing your hands first, you are experiencing the effects of oleoresin capsicum.

I have never heard of it causing seizures or hallucinations in a person. I have, however, seen several people curled up on the floor in the fetal position because of it.

Fun stuff!!

[JoeyDonuts]

+1 on the effects of OC. It does tend to vary somewhat in its effects, but that may have more to do with application of the spray pattern. I've seen some guys shrug it off like it was nothing. Others, it shuts them down right off the bat.

One guy I know of did end up having a seizure, but that could be attributed to stress from the irritant effect, and the fact he didn't disclose he had a history of seizures prior to entering the service.

It is not pleasant, but it is most certainly not a neurological agent anymore than CS gas is.

Had that one too. There's a reason why you're made to cup your hand under your nose.

[clayflingythingy]

I would say that the effects of oleoresin capsicum was neurological, as well as any number of poisons, which are used as chemical defenses by some animals/insects/plants. The olfactory is the quickest chemical delivery system there is. Air borne chemicals seem like a dandy defense. So where did this stinky BF theory come from?


By what mechanism did a skunk evolve their stink? How did a BF evolve a tapetum lucidum? ;) Our current knowledge base of evolution can't answer these.


If that is what he had. Maybe the whole thing was made up.

I consider this to be likley. The whole story "stinks".

[Drewbot]

WGBH, did you doctor prescribe an MSLT (Multiple Sleep Latency Test) to rule out Narcolepsy? I would ask your Pshych. Dr. if he thought your dreams could be related to a sleep disorder. And he CAN NOT rule out Narcolepsy without an MSLT.

[Drewbot]

There are multiple causes for misidentifications, some of them more prosaic than absence seizures or hypnopompic hallucinations. In some cases it's inanimate objects misperceived as animate creatures.

It's happened to me:

http://orgoneresearch.com/2009/11/27/perceptual-illusion-and-cryptozoology/

Right, this happens all the time. The difference is in how you interpret it.

One Example.

If you ever get a chance to sit in a tree stand, as the sun comes up, you can't believe the number of tree stumps, bushes, branches that turn in to Deer. A sideways glance to the right, might show you 10 points of beautiful antlers, however, as the light grows, you can see that it is simply a bare branch blowing in the wind.

[WGBH]

WGBH, did you doctor prescribe an MSLT (Multiple Sleep Latency Test) to rule out Narcolepsy? I would ask your Pshych. Dr. if he thought your dreams could be related to a sleep disorder. And he CAN NOT rule out Narcolepsy without an MSLT.

Not the psychologist. I had already been to Doctors for sleep disorders before turning to the psych. They ran lots of tests and I was not diagnosed with narcolepsy. I asked that we take the conversation away from questions about my current health issues. I am a 45 year old, diabetic, overweight man now. In 1982 I was a very fit 17 year old college level athlete with no health issues.

[WGBH]

I consider this to be likley. The whole story "stinks".

I made up this story why? Because I like being accused of lunacy and dishonesty? Because I like having my friends, family and co-workers ridicule me? I decided after 25 years that I wanted to pull a hoax? No, I wanted to try to get some closure and get some sleep without being drugged.

[Drewbot]

I made up this story why?


To convince others yourself you were not Crazy?

ETA: Not saying you are crazy, just saying that many people who suffer a hallucination falsely believe that because they had a hallucination that they are crazy. I am saying you are trying to convince yourself, that you must have seen Bigfoot, because otherwise, you must have had a hallucination, and therefore I would be crazy, but since you don't want to think you are crazy, you latched on to the Bigfoot explanation.

[LuvGodzilla]

I believe John witnessed something (real or unreal we will never know) and wouldn't try to force it into a sudden onset hallucination box as the only explanation of his experience.

In John's own words he experienced physical symptoms that correlate to medical conditions that can create a delirious state.

John has explained that his health was good at the age of 17. Only he will know this truth.

An experience such as John claims can't just be dismissed by the sudden and inexplicable sleep paralysis theory or hallucinatory state without additional history to support what John states, a one time occurrence.

There are many variables that can factor into how John describes his sudden physical onset of symptoms.

Toxic plant exposure
Contaminated Water Source
Chemical exposure
Drug or Alcohol Use
Dehydration
Sleep Deprivation
Body Temperature Fluctuation
Blood Sugar Imbalance (hyper or hypo)
Fear, releasing adrenaline
Blood Pressure (sudden drop or increase)
Seizure


And the list can go on, these are just an example. I don't know what happened to YOU Drew that keeps you on the Sleep Paralysis or Hallucination bandwagon but you continue to grasp at a singular straw without considering the many other medical reasons that support a physical and mental reaction in the body.

John would have to divulge his personal medical and social history before and after his "experience" for a qualified person to fully be able to diagnose him and explain the whats and whys of what happened to him at age 17. He said he is working on this with professionals whether he chooses to except their explanations or not.

It's not implausible that it's a misidentification either, nor implausible that a private owner of a primate had it escape (or dumped). We shouldn't just discount that an actual large animal was present, nor the type of large animal. I personally do not believe it was a Bigfoot, but that is my opinion and I won't try to force that down his throat.

John has admitted that he'd never hunted, he'd never been in the woods. He was given a firearm with a quick lesson on safety and left in the woods without knowing where he was, without food, in a strange place with no desire to kill anything and I can only imagine the true extent of anxiety in a young man out of his comfort zone.

John's actual condition that he describes points towards several medically related issues that can cause sudden onset delirium and if we couple anxiety, sleep deprivation (based on John's timeline), lack of food (and water?) John's later admittance to diabetes, there are way more reasons to look at a medical cause for John's experience than to shove it into a tiny box labeled sleep paralysis/hypnagogic hallucination.

I can see why John would get frustrated with that being thrown at him again and again. Perhaps we should discuss your experience Drew so we can better understand your insistence and how it has affected you.

What I do not understand about John's insistence that this was Bigfoot is that he appears somewhat unwilling to look towards other explanations based on his physical symptoms that may very well explain his experience and allow him to move on with his life.

I do not believe the infrasound theory and I do not believe that theory fits the physical symptoms experienced by John in the tree stand. The infrasound theory is a stretch and it has no basis in fact concerning a primate, bears or any Large North American Land Mammal.

I would be interested in Drew's reasoning as to why he's latched onto sleep paralysis/hallucination as a reason for some Bigfoot sightings. Drew, do you yourself suffer from this condition? I have experienced sleep paralysis for 35 years with no hallucinations and I have yet to see Bigfoot in my many years in the woods or while driving or while experiencing sleep paralysis. I grew up with the knowledge of Bigfoot. I will attest that the only hallucination I ever experienced was while using LSD as a teen and it simply wasn't a scary monster.

[Drewbot]

And the list can go on, these are just an example. I don't know what happened to YOU Drew that keeps you on the Sleep Paralysis or Hallucination bandwagon but you continue to grasp at a singular straw without considering the many other medical reasons that support a physical and mental reaction in the body.
...

I would be interested in Drew's reasoning as to why he's latched onto sleep paralysis/hallucination as a reason for some Bigfoot sightings. Drew, do you yourself suffer from this condition? I have experienced sleep paralysis for 35 years with no hallucinations and I have yet to see Bigfoot in my many years in the woods or while driving or while experiencing sleep paralysis. I grew up with the knowledge of Bigfoot. I will attest that the only hallucination I ever experienced was while using LSD as a teen and it simply wasn't a scary monster.

At one time, believe it or not, I thought I had an encounter with an Unidentified creature, whilst bow-hunting in the Michigan woods outside of Detroit. Since then I have decided that getting to my spot in the very early morning, as I did that day, is also the best way to trick a whitetail deer. The problem with getting up that early is that you are sleep deprived, and have the tendency to nod-off, while waiting for daylight. Numerous times I have seen 'deer' moving through the woods near me, and as light approaches, realized that it was simply a branch shaped like a deer, or a stump that was the same color as a deer. I have also thought I saw a Black bear standing up on it's hind legs looking at me sitting in my tree stand, and turned out it was just a burned out stump.

This is the personal experience that caused me to research this as the cause for some bigfoot sightings. (not all sightings) however, when someone says they collapsed on the floor, that really pushes the cataplexy angle. Therefore, knowing how underdiagnosed and misdiagnosed Narcolepsy is, from my research, I am concerned that John hasn't had it properly ruled out. And the fact that he has not responded to the question of whether he had an MSLT (nap test) leads me to beleive it hasn't been properly ruled out.

Public experiences can be found in other ways. Ask a police officer if he has ever responded to a person in a ditch early in the morning, and if the driver has ever given odd explanations as to why they ended up that way. Perhaps a tire in the road, which was never located, a baby carriage, a shopping cart etc... These are common examples of normal people experiencing a hallucination.

Now ask a truck driver if he has ever seen odd things while driving at night. You won't believe the things you will hear. I did a poll at BFF, which I can not access, due to my illicit banning, called 'Hallucinations while Driving' or something like that. A large percentage of people at BFF responded that they had hallucinated while driving. There are many examples of the things I am referring to in that thread. So either a large percentage of people interested in Bigfoot have jobs or lives which deprive them of sleep, or a large percentage of Bigfoot Forum readers have sleep disorders or other Hallucination inducing factors, such as those you listed above. Mercury, Bad Water, Paint Fumes, Prescription Drug use, Non-Prescription Drug use... etc...

ETA: if someone could link to the poll at BFF, I'd appreciate it.

[RayG]

ETA: if someone could link to the poll at BFF, I'd appreciate it.

Here ya go (http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=21898&st=66&start=66).

RayG

[LuvGodzilla]

At one time, believe it or not, I thought I had an encounter with an Unidentified creature, whilst bow-hunting in the Michigan woods outside of Detroit. Since then I have decided that getting to my spot in the very early morning, as I did that day, is also the best way to trick a whitetail deer. The problem with getting up that early is that you are sleep deprived, and have the tendency to nod-off, while waiting for daylight. Numerous times I have seen 'deer' moving through the woods near me, and as light approaches, realized that it was simply a branch shaped like a deer, or a stump that was the same color as a deer. I have also thought I saw a Black bear standing up on it's hind legs looking at me sitting in my tree stand, and turned out it was just a burned out stump.

This is the personal experience that caused me to research this as the cause for some bigfoot sightings. (not all sightings) however, when someone says they collapsed on the floor, that really pushes the cataplexy angle. Therefore, knowing how underdiagnosed and misdiagnosed Narcolepsy is, from my research, I am concerned that John hasn't had it properly ruled out. And the fact that he has not responded to the question of whether he had an MSLT (nap test) leads me to beleive it hasn't been properly ruled out.

Public experiences can be found in other ways. Ask a police officer if he has ever responded to a person in a ditch early in the morning, and if the driver has ever given odd explanations as to why they ended up that way. Perhaps a tire in the road, which was never located, a baby carriage, a shopping cart etc... These are common examples of normal people experiencing a hallucination.

Now ask a truck driver if he has ever seen odd things while driving at night. You won't believe the things you will hear. I did a poll at BFF, which I can not access, due to my illicit banning, called 'Hallucinations while Driving' or something like that. A large percentage of people at BFF responded that they had hallucinated while driving. There are many examples of the things I am referring to in that thread. So either a large percentage of people interested in Bigfoot have jobs or lives which deprive them of sleep, or a large percentage of Bigfoot Forum readers have sleep disorders or other Hallucination inducing factors, such as those you listed above. Mercury, Bad Water, Paint Fumes, Prescription Drug use, Non-Prescription Drug use... etc...

ETA: if someone could link to the poll at BFF, I'd appreciate it.

Here is your link to the BFF Poll (http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=21898&mode=threaded&pid=448568) you don't have to be a member to access it, simply cut and pasted your thread name into google.

After you ran that poll Drew did you correlate the data from the responses and if you did, what was the consensus on the type of hallucination? How many saw Bigfoot or any creepy unreal creature?

I appreciate your explanation about why your interested in Sleep Paralysis and hallucination, yet from your description of seeing shapes in the dark of inanimate objects that are truly there and the brain is trying to put them into a recognizable pattern is a common phenomena and not hallucinatory related.

I have this happen on a regular basis while in the forest, day or night, seeing something from a distance whether straight on or peripheral and that brain moment where I'm trying to figure out what I'm seeing. I don't consider that sleep deprivation related.

I do not disagree with fatigued driver's, statistically it's up there with teen age driver's and cell phones as some of the highest reasons for motor vehicle accidents yet are you saying from your research that the fatigued driver has been proven to have a higher percentage of hallucination attributes contributing to driver error or do most fatigued drivers simply fall asleep at the wheel?

The BFF poll does not provide a proper data set to make any quantifiable determination.

I'm a retired EMT, I have responded to many calls of folks who have collapsed and in all my years have not met a single one with a patient history of Narcolepsy, of course many do have sleep apnea and are very overweight with other associated health problems. I don't feel John has any reason to demand a test for a condition he doesn't feel he had at 17 years old. It's not a condition where it's a one time occurance.

Tube gave an excellent example and a link to his website about how the brain perceives something as simple as a bag moving in the wind on the ground while a person is in a moving vehicle and how the brain interpreted this object. It didn't relate to fatigue or to a history of undiagnosed narcolepsy or cataplexy, it simply was an object with a shape and color and movement that the brain did not immediately recognize.

I feel you are placing a great deal of emphasis on a condition that worries You specifically Drew. Do you have Narcolepsy, have you experienced Cataplexy? Do you have sleep apnea and have had it since your teens?

You mention hallucinatory states of people that have had accidents and made claims of objects that don't exist. Yes, I have treated folks at numerous accident scenes where they believed something and in the end Drew, there were generally always a medical reason for their beliefs about their incident, drugs and alcohol, diabetes, blood pressure related issues from heart conditions, stress, and of course severe fatigue. Yet, in my experience, fatigue was low on the list compared to other medical conditions or use of drugs and alcohol.

Hallucinating Bigfoot, now that's a very subjective hallucination. Most people as you pointed out will hallucinate known objects. Can hallucination be attributed to Bigfoot sightings? I'm sure it can and if one were to dig very deep into a witness sighting and asked the proper questions without going against HIPAA legal requirements, I'm sure there will be a few folks out there with disorders that can be attributed to medical conditions creating delusion. I feel that would be fairly rare considering the number of reports.

Did SugarB hallucinate and share it with her husband? Did you hallucinate or did you experience the common phenomena of the brain trying to put into perspective an object not seen clearly under less than optimal visual conditions?

In John's experience he relates what he sees from the deer stand, he sees a small bear, he thinks it might be a cub, perhaps Mama bear wasn't far behind. Bears stink. John's experience in the forest from his statements is "none" before this.

Why would John's suspect hallucination in my opinion act like a bear, stop and eat like a bear, have a large mass like a bear (earlier he witnessed a bear) and possibly stink like a bear? I'm much more inclined to believe that with John's lack of experience, being left alone in a strange environment to kill an animal without knowledge of hunting that he simply was overcome by more pressure and anxiety than he could withstand. I do not truly enjoy encounters with bear and it's a yearly encounter for me more than once on several occasions, and I sure wouldn't want to have my first one as a young person alone far from people that have knowledge and understanding of the environment, the animals in that environment and how to properly defend oneself with a firearm that I've never used. Only John can really explain his real state of mind concerning his experience, he's given some helpful clues in his story.

John has listed his physical symptoms that day several times. He does not claim sleep apnea and I really have to wonder how many healthy and athletically fit non drug or alcohol using 17 years old suffer from sleep apnea. He did not complain of fatigue, he did not complain of symptoms related specifically to a sleep apnea disorder because it doesn't occur only once. He would have been suffering the effects of a sleep apnea condition before and after his experience.

John has claimed over and over this only happened once. The conditions you suggest are medical issues that occur more than once and require treatment. At 17 I'm going to go by John's own health assessment that he was in good shape. At his present age and health I would say sleep apnea would be a concern.

I'm not an expert, I'm trying to correlate where your coming from and why you feel based on the information John has given multiple times that his health at age 17 would have been conducive to a singular occurance of a condition that most people have consistently.

I look forward to perhaps John discussing his reasoning why this doesn't fit his experience without going into a full disclosure of his personal health. John are you willing to discuss the points I brought up concerning your state of mind and any anxieties you had about this trip and the expected killing of an animal, also being left alone out there.

I also look forward to further discussion with you Drew on your research findings and how they apply to "some" Bigfoot sightings. I do not discount that sleep related disorders can be attributed to a small number of witness reports. I just don't feel from John's explanation that it fits his experience.

[Drewbot]

Here is your link to the BFF Poll (http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=21898&mode=threaded&pid=448568) you don't have to be a member to access it, simply cut and pasted your thread name into google. They have my IP address blocked, so I can see a cached page on google, but can't flip through it.

See above post
My point being that Hallucinations are a common occurence, and a much better explanation than a Giant, Unclassified Hairy Biped running around in driveways, backyards and medium sized northeastern cities.

The reason I am pinpointing Narcolepsy with WGBH, is that he had what appears to be an episode of cataplexy triggered by fear. Cataplexy can occur in otherwise healthy people. Maybe he did see a bear, but his collapse at an emotional time, coupled with his years of bad dreams, and the fact that he hasn't had an MSLT tells me he may be one of the many cases of undiagnosed narcolepsy.


I also look forward to further discussion with you Drew on your research findings and how they apply to "some" Bigfoot sightings. I do not discount that sleep related disorders can be attributed to a small number of witness reports. I just don't feel from John's explanation that it fits his experience.
I am only saying that sleep related hallucinations/paralysis account for some sightings as well. And as I explained above, John does fit in well with narcolepsy. Cataplexy does not manifest itself in all Narcolepsy patients, the key to diagnosing narcolepsy is the SOREM (sleep-onset-REM)which are the cause of sleep paralysis, hynogogic hallucinations. Narcolepsy is indicated by a positive SOREM in 2 to 3 or more of 5 naps in an MSLT test.

John, have you ever been as frightened as you were that day when you collapsed?

[WGBH]

To convince others yourself you were not Crazy?

ETA: Not saying you are crazy, just saying that many people who suffer a hallucination falsely believe that because they had a hallucination that they are crazy. I am saying you are trying to convince yourself, that you must have seen Bigfoot, because otherwise, you must have had a hallucination, and therefore I would be crazy, but since you don't want to think you are crazy, you latched on to the Bigfoot explanation.

Not the case.

[WGBH]

John, have you ever been as frightened as you were that day when you collapsed?

No, the most frightening thing WAS NOT when I collapsed. It was later when I SAW a Bigfoot.

[kitakaze]

I believe John witnessed something (real or unreal we will never know) and wouldn't try to force it into a sudden onset hallucination box as the only explanation of his experience.

(snipped for brevity)

Personally, I think this is an excellent post by LuvGodzilla. I feel it is a fine line to walk when discussing John's experience. I feel there is an inherent danger in blindly reinforcing what may never have happened the way footers do for John by filling his head with infrasound and stink attack gobbledygook. I also need to take seriously that I am not a physician or psychologist and can not proporly diagnose John with anything. I can't insist that he had sleep paralysis, and while others like Drew have their reasons to think that is the explanation, I'm not so sure. What I do know is that John had some type of seizure right before he saw what would be the singular most amazing find in zoological history. I am confident John did not see a Bigfoot, but I can't rule out that he really did see something.

Maybe he did see some kind of primate or something else that he did confabulate in his memory. I don't know, maybe he experienced some trauma and had a false memory created. Memory is a creation and very prone to distortion. We all know this. Let's look into each thing point by point, but I am going to try and stay away from playing doctor with John.

Right now I'm going to look into the enviromental agent angle for accounting for John's seizure. I encourage John to contact Great Dismal people but in the meantime I will use the internet to look for stories of people having similar seizures as John in the area. I don't think I'll find anything siginificant, but I prefer it to playing doctor.

[Bitter Monk]

I feel there is an inherent danger in blindly reinforcing what may never have happened the way footers do for John by filling his head with infrasound and stink attack gobbledygook.

This. Even if John did see a bigfoot, which I know is a premise many here wouldn't consider, it doesn't mean that everything that happened that day was caused by the presence of said bigfoot.

[HarryHenderson]

Hi, Cimerian, and welcome to the JREF.

Yeah, that's about the way it goes, isn't it. Wild claim, requisite request for evidence, rain of excuses, oh, I have the pictures but there are legal obligations, you see. It's really quite fascinating and I never tire of seei*snore*

Really, footer people, let's try harder shall we? Put some swagger on it. Try something new. At least people like Bull$#!% Maker had the beans to do crazy things like make a Bigfoot hat and take pictures of that...

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=793

The whole copyright dreck is so tired. Gimme some plush toys and a polaroid and I'll do better than those clowns.

BTW, if you are not banned at the BFRO board now, you should be about sometime tomorrow. Kim Jong Moneymaker or somebody will take care of that.
:D The entire post is laugh out loud funny...Comedy Gold™.

[WGBH]

[QUOTE=kitakaze;5369467]I feel there is an inherent danger in blindly reinforcing what may never have happened the way footers do for John by filling his head with infrasound and stink attack gobbledygook. QUOTE]

Kit,

My Footer friends (all 5 I normally associate with) do not reinforce anything about infrasound or stink. It is merely a theory that is discussed in this research. None of them have ever tried to force that on me. My footer friends know I do not like to talk much about my encounter at all and they never force me to do so. People who I don't know do get curious and ask me questions about it. Like when I go on larger expeditions like with the ABS. Billy will step in and let them know I don't like to discuss it publicly anymore since the Ohio conference fiasco. After I get to know people I can discuss it usually. It is much easier on internet forums, I can just turn off my laptop if I want.

[rockinkt]

This. Even if John did see a bigfoot, which I know is a premise many here wouldn't consider, it doesn't mean that everything that happened that day was caused by the presence of said bigfoot.

True.

BTW - welcome to the JREF BM! :)

It was my pleasure to read your posts and debate issues with you on the BFF and I look forward to your participation here.

[Bitter Monk]

Same to you Rock.

[kitakaze]

Kit,

My Footer friends (all 5 I normally associate with) do not reinforce anything about infrasound or stink. It is merely a theory that is discussed in this research. None of them have ever tried to force that on me. My footer friends know I do not like to talk much about my encounter at all and they never force me to do so. People who I don't know do get curious and ask me questions about it. Like when I go on larger expeditions like with the ABS. Billy will step in and let them know I don't like to discuss it publicly anymore since the Ohio conference fiasco. After I get to know people I can discuss it usually. It is much easier on internet forums, I can just turn off my laptop if I want.

I wasn't thinking of Billy, Bruce, Sean, DB or any other of your main Bigfoot friends. I was thinking more of turkeypants people on forums like the BFF when you were there, or the SFB. I can think of very few footers who would not accept that you saw Bigfoot and were frazzled in some manner. The "'Round the mulberry bush" Blogsquatcher piece would definitely encourage footers to think that way. Have you never had a footer say they think you got blasted by Bigfoot? I very much doubt that. I think you heard it often.

Those people need to take off the asshat and get out of Bigfoot la La Land long enough to pick up a book and read enough to get a grip on reality and let go of infrasound, Bigfoot pets, glowing eyes insanity and other fortean delusions. You know it's crazy, but you won't accept some internal physical/neurological cause for your seizure prior to your sighting, so that leaves you with outside agent causing you to have a seizure not related to the 9x5ft beast unknown to science that you immediately after saw. We know it was not the emission of any animal like a skunk as their sprays are sulfate and not neurologically affecting in any manner.

What does that leave us with? Swamp gas? I don't think there was any meth labs there in 1982 (though I'm sure you could find one around the Pasquotank now). We need to explore every option we can and eliminate all the possibilities that can not account for your experience deductively. Remember, Bigfoot alone can not account for your experience which included a seizure.

[WGBH]

I wasn't thinking of Billy, Bruce, Sean, DB or any other of your main Bigfoot friends. I was thinking more of turkeypants people on forums like the BFF when you were there, or the SFB. I can think of very few footers who would not accept that you saw Bigfoot and were frazzled in some manner. The "'Round the mulberry bush" Blogsquatcher piece would definitely encourage footers to think that way. Have you never had a footer say they think you got blasted by Bigfoot? I very much doubt that. I think you heard it often.


Yes some footers try to tell me I was blasted by Bigfoot or got a stink bomb. Some of them don't believe I saw Bigfoot at all, for example Bruce or Melissa. I am used to it now.

[kitakaze]

True.

BTW - welcome to the JREF BM! :)

It was my pleasure to read your posts and debate issues with you on the BFF and I look forward to your participation here.

Wow, where are my manners?

Very glad you decloaked, Monk, and welcome to the JREF.:)

How does it feel to have that new poster smell? I never registered an account at the BFF, but I was a regular reader of the BFF for years before coming here. We got you, Volsquatch, wolftrax, rockinkt, RayG... it's nice to have some BFF old guard here. I do not read the BFF even a fraction of what I used to and wow! are there some idiots there now.

Hope you stick around.

[kitakaze]

Yes some footers try to tell me I was blasted by Bigfoot or got a stink bomb. Some of them don't believe I saw Bigfoot at all, for example Bruce or Melissa. I am used to it now.

What? Really? What does Bruce Harrington think happened and what does Melissa think happened?

[Bitter Monk]

Wow, where are my manners?

Very glad you decloaked, Monk, and welcome to the JREF.:)

Thank you very much.

How does it feel to have that new poster smell? I never registered an account at the BFF, but I was a regular reader of the BFF for years before coming here. We got you, Volsquatch, wolftrax, rockinkt, RayG... it's nice to have some BFF old guard here. I do not read the BFF even a fraction of what I used to and wow! are there some idiots there now.

It's been quite a while since I've got to sport the noob hat. If I'm going to be a noob somewhere that's good company to start out in.

On topic... John I think kit and I are saying the same thing when it comes to you being primed to the possibility that bigfoot was related to your seizure or episode, and in reading your responses I think you're saying the same. If someone were to ask you point blank (without maybe being an option) if bigfoot induced your seizure would you say yes or no?

[WGBH]

What? Really? What does Bruce Harrington think happened and what does Melissa think happened?

Melissa said:
"I believe John did see something that shook him to the core. But, I have never even told John that I "believe he seen a bigfoot". I believe he had an encounter of some kind, what exactly I can not say. That is as honest as I can be"

Bruce can speak for himself.

[kitakaze]

Melissa said:
"I believe John did see something that shook him to the core. But, I have never even told John that I "believe he seen a bigfoot". I believe he had an encounter of some kind, what exactly I can not say. That is as honest as I can be"

Bruce can speak for himself.

Well, that isn't Melissa saying she doesn't believe you saw a Bigfoot. That's Melissa declaring no opinion one way or the other, other than that she thinks you did see something. That was an expression of neutrality after WP pointed out the irony that she professed to consider evidence claims as hoaxes until proven otherwise. You said Melissa didn't believe you saw Bigfoot at all, which actually wasn't what she said.

Such a nitpick, I know, but I really, really wish someone would sit Melissa down and walk her through the difference between "seen" and "saw". When I hear the phrase "he seen a Bigfoot" I just think of hiked up tights, a sweater with a unicorn on it, haircurlers, a pack of Newports, a bottomless rum and coke, and horrible, horrible teeth.

Bruce, I doubt has said that he thinks you are lying, misidentified something, were seeing things, or experienced a false memory. For a self-described skeptic espousing Bigfoot, Nessie, and Mokele-Mbembe nonsense, I really doubt that he's given you the thumbs down.

[WGBH]

Well, that isn't Melissa saying she doesn't believe you saw a Bigfoot. That's Melissa declaring no opinion one way or the other, other than that she thinks you did see something. That was an expression of neutrality after WP pointed out the irony that she professed to consider evidence claims as hoaxes until proven otherwise. You said Melissa didn't believe you saw Bigfoot at all, which actually wasn't what she said.

Bruce, I doubt has said that he thinks you are lying, misidentified something, were seeing things, or experienced a false memory. For a self-described skeptic espousing Bigfoot, Nessie, and Mokele-Mbembe nonsense, I really doubt that he's given you the thumbs down.

Did I say that Bruce thinks I am lying? Melissa being neutral does not constitute her believing I have seen Bigfoot. You seem to be under the opinion that anyone who goes out and investigates Bigfoot cannot be objective.

The middle part of your post was rude and juvenile and was reported.

[HarryHenderson]

:D Dude yer killin' me!

WGBH, I think you need to become a bit (or a lot) more humbled by the fact you so get an 'above the call of duty' (almost nauseating patience, compassion and concern) treatment here at the JREF. And YET, after receiving such treatment for awhile now you STILL HAVE THE BALLS to 'report' a funny written by YOUR SINGLE BIGGEST JREF ALLY WHO PROMOTES SUCH SPECIAL TREATMENT...because...you have NO ******* CLUE who your friends are? OMG! Inexplicable to me, these people are trying to HELP YOU man!

Unbelievable!!!

[Cimerian]

I don't think it is necessary to invoke hallucinations or altered mind states to account for many of the bigfoot/chupacabra/trolls/fairies sightings. The normal functioning of the visual perception is that the brain constantly constructs an estimation of what it is around. Our visual system does not work as a camera, just producing an exact representation of the 'reality', but instead, based on the few data available, fills the gaps, and create a continuous representation of what surrounds us. In other words, your perception (visual) is generated by your brain, with the help of external stimuli. Look for bistable optical illusions in the web and you can experience it for yourself, the same physical stimulus has 2 different exclusive meanings for your brain. Now, the point is, what your brain is going to generate depends on your previous experience, and on your expectations. So, when you are looking at something non-familiar, your brain will try to match that with its experience, once your brain generates a coherent perception, it tends to stick to that. Second point, memory. Memory is not an exact account of the perception, but again, is a remaining perception. Thus, it is modified every time we retrieve it, and memory is even more susceptible to the expectations and thoughts of the individual. My point is, you don't need to have fever or being starving to see hairy biped things during the night in the woods. It is enough if it is dark and full of vertical shapes (trees) to have a good. So, I would say, reports of people seeing, hearing, or smelling something are not evidence of anything (ha, reports of people touching or being touches are rather nonexistent). I believe they are convinced of what the perceived, but the human brain is a complex machine, can play you a few tricks. Just anecdotal, when I was 5, I saw 2 tall hairy humanoid shapes walking holding hands. It was a dark night, in the backyard of my house in a 5-million population city!

[kitakaze]

Did I say that Bruce thinks I am lying? Melissa being neutral does not constitute her believing I have seen Bigfoot. You seem to be under the opinion that anyone who goes out and investigates Bigfoot cannot be objective.

No, you didn't say Bruce thinks you're lying. You said he doesn't think you saw a Bigfoot at all. You seeing Bigfoot - him: nuh-uh. I then said that I doubt he thinks you are lying or misidentified something or were seeing things or experienced a false memory. Any of those options. See the difference?

The middle part of your post was rude and juvenile and was reported.

If you think I was breaching my MA, then you are more than welcome to report my post. Please understand my comment was not directed at any specific person, but rather what mental image I get when someone uses a phrase like "he seen a Bigfoot". I never said Melissa saunters around with hiked up tights, a sweater with a unicorn on it, haircurlers, a pack of Newports, a bottomless rum and coke, and horrible, horrible teeth. I am expressing the vibe I get from that way of speaking. See the difference?

[CreatureSeeker]

:D Dude yer killin' me!

...you STILL HAVE THE BALLS to 'report' a funny written by YOUR SINGLE BIGGEST JREF ALLY WHO PROMOTES SUCH SPECIAL TREATMENT...because...you have NO ******* CLUE who your friends are? OMG! Inexplicable to me, these people are trying to HELP YOU man!

Unbelievable!!!

I would hardly classify said poster as WGBH's "SINGLE BIGGEST JREF ALLY..." Kitakaze's posts about WGBH's experiences have been rude and condescending. How is that helping WGBH? If anything, it is WGBH who has shown remarkable patience and civility with his detractors in this forum. I am quite sure WGBH knows who his friends are.:D

[HarryHenderson]

I would hardly classify said poster as WGBH's "SINGLE BIGGEST JREF ALLY..." Kitakaze's posts about WGBH's experiences have been rude and condescending. How is that helping WGBH? If anything, it is WGBH who has shown remarkable patience and civility with his detractors in this forum. I am quite sure WGBH knows who his friends are.:D
Oh yes, but of course, pardon me for the interruption, You're so right...and so savvy and...insightful too. I'm at a loss. I now clearly see the error of my ways. Thanks, no really, thanks.

When you all get the chance, you need to thank this man for turning me onto the correct path of Bigfoot Righteousness™.

There is a Bigfoot! HALLELUJAH!!!!

[kitakaze]

I tried googling seizures and the Pasquotank area, but all I got was land seizures for drug offences. Interestingly, our current conversation came up as the fifth google listing. I tried seizures and Great Dismal Swamp and the only thing of interest I got was a study of hyperthermia, heat stroke, and sun stroke in various animals, including bears in the Great Dismal Swamp...

In Bears
Panting. (J1.25.w6)
This was noted in all Ursus americanus - American black bear with body temperatures reaching or passing 42 °C during a study in the Great Dismal Swamp, Virginia and North Carolina, USA. (J1.25.w6)
Apparent weakness. (P85.1.w4)
High body temperature. (D268.w1, J428.34.w1)
If the bear's rectal temperature rises above 104 °F then it is hyperthermic. (D249.w13)

http://wildlife1.wildlifeinformation.org/S/00dis/PhysicalTraumatic/sunstroke.html

Wildlife biologists in Great Dismal taking rectal temperatures of bears - :checkmark

Wildlife biologists finding Bigfoot - :thumbsdow

Well, this bear is clearly hyperthermic. It's rectal temperature is 104 °F and clearly... BOB! Don't move! You are not going to believe this but...

Tried swamp gas and seizures - nothing there but we came in at #8 on google there. Meth labs, Pasquotank, and 1982 - we come in #2. John, you didn't happen to see any smoke or smell anything burning at all, right?

[kitakaze]

I would hardly classify said poster as WGBH's "SINGLE BIGGEST JREF ALLY..." Kitakaze's posts about WGBH's experiences have been rude and condescending. How is that helping WGBH? If anything, it is WGBH who has shown remarkable patience and civility with his detractors in this forum. I am quite sure WGBH knows who his friends are.:D

Have I been rude to John and condescending? I think I've been very friendly with John. I like John. That's why I really try to help find some answers. If you can find where I'm insulting John and being rude to him, Bruce, please quote it for me, and if I was in fact rude or insulting, I will apologize. If we are just going to derail a conversation with yes, you did/no I didn't, I won't be contributing to that.

[kitakaze]

Yes some footers try to tell me I was blasted by Bigfoot or got a stink bomb. Some of them don't believe I saw Bigfoot at all, for example Bruce or Melissa. I am used to it now.

Melissa said:
"I believe John did see something that shook him to the core. But, I have never even told John that I "believe he seen a bigfoot". I believe he had an encounter of some kind, what exactly I can not say. That is as honest as I can be"

Bruce can speak for himself.

For clarity for other posters, CreatureSeeker is the Bruce that John/WGBH is referring.

Bruce, John says you don't believe your fellow Sasquatch Watch member saw a Bigfoot at all. As a self-described skeptic, what do you think he experienced and what options have you suggested?

[kitakaze]

I don't think it is necessary to invoke hallucinations or altered mind states to account for many of the bigfoot/chupacabra/trolls/fairies sightings. The normal functioning of the visual perception is that the brain constantly constructs an estimation of what it is around. Our visual system does not work as a camera, just producing an exact representation of the 'reality', but instead, based on the few data available, fills the gaps, and create a continuous representation of what surrounds us. In other words, your perception (visual) is generated by your brain, with the help of external stimuli. Look for bistable optical illusions in the web and you can experience it for yourself, the same physical stimulus has 2 different exclusive meanings for your brain. Now, the point is, what your brain is going to generate depends on your previous experience, and on your expectations. So, when you are looking at something non-familiar, your brain will try to match that with its experience, once your brain generates a coherent perception, it tends to stick to that. Second point, memory. Memory is not an exact account of the perception, but again, is a remaining perception. Thus, it is modified every time we retrieve it, and memory is even more susceptible to the expectations and thoughts of the individual. My point is, you don't need to have fever or being starving to see hairy biped things during the night in the woods. It is enough if it is dark and full of vertical shapes (trees) to have a good. So, I would say, reports of people seeing, hearing, or smelling something are not evidence of anything (ha, reports of people touching or being touches are rather nonexistent). I believe they are convinced of what the perceived, but the human brain is a complex machine, can play you a few tricks. Just anecdotal, when I was 5, I saw 2 tall hairy humanoid shapes walking holding hands. It was a dark night, in the backyard of my house in a 5-million population city!

Cimerian, I think you made a thoughtful post there and I want to help you in your future contributions at the JREF. While you had some very salient points in that post, you created what I refer to as a textberg. A textberg is daunting chunk of text that causes the average reader to think Well, I just am not even going to try getting through that.

The way to avoid textbergs and invite people to read your posts is to make proper use of paragraphs. Paragraphs are best employed based on managable chunks of information based on subject. As such, let me put that textberg of yours, which contains valuable thoughts, in a more reader friendly format...


I don't think it is necessary to invoke hallucinations or altered mind states to account for many of the bigfoot/chupacabra/trolls/fairies sightings. The normal functioning of the visual perception is that the brain constantly constructs an estimation of what it is around. Our visual system does not work as a camera, just producing an exact representation of the 'reality', but instead, based on the few data available, fills the gaps, and create a continuous representation of what surrounds us.

In other words, your perception (visual) is generated by your brain, with the help of external stimuli. Look for bistable optical illusions in the web and you can experience it for yourself, the same physical stimulus has 2 different exclusive meanings for your brain. Now, the point is, what your brain is going to generate depends on your previous experience, and on your expectations. So, when you are looking at something non-familiar, your brain will try to match that with its experience, once your brain generates a coherent perception, it tends to stick to that.

Second point, memory. Memory is not an exact account of the perception, but again, is a remaining perception. Thus, it is modified every time we retrieve it, and memory is even more susceptible to the expectations and thoughts of the individual. My point is, you don't need to have fever or being starving to see hairy biped things during the night in the woods. It is enough if it is dark and full of vertical shapes (trees) to have a good.

So, I would say, reports of people seeing, hearing, or smelling something are not evidence of anything (ha, reports of people touching or being touches are rather nonexistent). I believe they are convinced of what the perceived, but the human brain is a complex machine, can play you a few tricks. Just anecdotal, when I was 5, I saw 2 tall hairy humanoid shapes walking holding hands. It was a dark night, in the backyard of my house in a 5-million population city!

There we have rather than a sizable block of text that deters the reader from actually taking the time to read it, to four managable paragraphs that can be easily read. Please don't interpret my advice as negative criticism, but rather friendly help from a fellow member that has experience with effective writing in the internet forum medium.

[clayflingythingy]

I made up this story why? Because I like being accused of lunacy and dishonesty? Because I like having my friends, family and co-workers ridicule me? I decided after 25 years that I wanted to pull a hoax? No, I wanted to try to get some closure and get some sleep without being drugged.

When I was a younster a couple of times a year my Mom would drag me along to visit her elderly aunt. This woman lived alone, in a rural area, with no close by neighbors. Every visit she would tell Mom about her "talks" with here dead husband and child. She would say things like: "Mr Cays (husband) came to visit me."

Aside from her "talking to dead people" she was normal. I have always suspected she fantasized about talking to dead releatives out of sheer loneliness.

Your bigfoot yarn has always struck me as some kind of made up fantsy, which I think is just as likely as an hallucination.

[WGBH]

:D Dude yer killin' me!

WGBH, I think you need to become a bit (or a lot) more humbled by the fact you so get an 'above the call of duty' (almost nauseating patience, compassion and concern) treatment here at the JREF. And YET, after receiving such treatment for awhile now you STILL HAVE THE BALLS to 'report' a funny written by YOUR SINGLE BIGGEST JREF ALLY WHO PROMOTES SUCH SPECIAL TREATMENT...because...you have NO ******* CLUE who your friends are? OMG! Inexplicable to me, these people are trying to HELP YOU man!

Unbelievable!!!

Good Morning Harry,

I will admit that I need to be more patient and probably over reacted. I am not humbled in the least by the JREF and please explain why you think I should be. Is it because you feel I have been treated well by the members here? Fine, but that is the way people should act in a public forum and IMO it does not really need to be acknowledged. It should be expected. For the record, I have no problem at all with my personal treatment here at the JREF and If I did, I can just ignore the people responsible.

My "friends" are not mysterious people on a internet forum who I have no personal connection or experience with.

[WGBH]

[QUOTE=kitakaze;5370808]
I never said Melissa saunters around with hiked up tights, a sweater with a unicorn on it, haircurlers, a pack of Newports, a bottomless rum and coke, and horrible, horrible teeth.QUOTE]

I think you did just say it.

[WGBH]

When I was a younster a couple of times a year my Mom would drag me along to visit her elderly aunt. This woman lived alone, in a rural area, with no close by neighbors. Every visit she would tell Mom about her "talks" with here dead husband and child. She would say things like: "Mr Cays (husband) came to visit me."

Aside from her "talking to dead people" she was normal. I have always suspected she fantasized about talking to dead releatives out of sheer loneliness.

Your bigfoot yarn has always struck me as some kind of made up fantsy, which I think is just as likely as an hallucination.

So your theory is that I began a hoax in 1998 when I made my BFRO report and waited 8 years to spring my trap? I have only been talking about my encounter since 2006 and only publicly for about a year.

[kitakaze]

I think you did just say it.

Really, John? Is that what I said? I specified that my impression of the improper use of saw/seen was focused solely at Melissa? As far as I recall, I still consider Melissa to be an intelligent woman and she considers me to be an intelligent man. If you consider your use of the report function to be appropriate, then so be it. I will accept whatever punishment.

But let's get back to nuts and bolts. You don't think you had the infrablast or stink laid down on you. I couldn't find anything for an external source to make you have a seizure. Any ideas?

[kitakaze]

I think you did just say it.

No, really. How so? How did I say Melissa tugs Newports and wears unicorn sweaters?

[Drewbot]

I never said Melissa saunters around with hiked up tights, a sweater with a unicorn on it, haircurlers, a pack of Newports, a bottomless rum and coke, and horrible, horrible teeth.

I think you did just say it.

WGBH

Kitakaze was clearly referring generally to the incorrect use of 'Seen' in the past tense of the word 'see'. When in fact 'Seen' is a past participle.

He said when he hears 'seen' used in the past tense of 'see' it invokes the above description. For example "I seen Ronnie Dobbs at the Quik-Mart."

You made the jump that he was referring directly to Melissa on your own. The mention that Melissa uses 'Seen' as a past tense of 'see, is a known fact for anyone who reads her writing, however your conclusion that the above referred directly to her was incorrect.

Back to the topic:

Having a hallucination is a known phenomenon. If it occurs one-time in half the population, and only 1/100% of those 150,000,000 believe what they thought they saw to be a bigfoot, that is 15,000 people, if only 10% of those people actually report a bigfoot sighting, that is 1,500 reports per year involving a hallucination. We are talking about tiny percentages of the population actually mistaking what they saw for Bigfoot.

When you compare it to the idea that there is a Giant, North American, Hairy, Bipedal Monster stalking the woods and rural driveways of North America, hurling pigs, porpoising while salmon fishing, the hallucination possibility dwarfs this idea in likelihood.

The other thing that leads me to believe that some of these sightings are Hallucination related, is that the sightings occur in ALL areas of the world. China, Indonesia, Australia, Nepal, Russia, Canada, South America...
Do you think a living Bipedal, Giant, hairy primate is really that widespread?
Let alone the idea that it lives in Alaska, BC, Washington, Idaho, Colorado, Oklahoma, Texas, Missouri, Arkansas, Louisiana every continental state and Canada. Does anyone really think that is possible? Oh... really?!? Really?

[WGBH]

No, really. How so? How did I say Melissa tugs Newports and wears unicorn sweaters?

For the 3rd and 4th time.

[WGBH]

Really, John? Is that what I said? I specified that my impression of the improper use of saw/seen was focused solely at Melissa? As far as I recall, I still consider Melissa to be an intelligent woman and she considers me to be an intelligent man. If you consider your use of the report function to be appropriate, then so be it. I will accept whatever punishment.

I don't expect a punishment.

But let's get back to nuts and bolts. You don't think you had the infrablast or stink laid down on you. I couldn't find anything for an external source to make you have a seizure. Any ideas?



No ideas at all.

[Cimerian]

Cimerian, I think you made a thoughtful post there and I want to help you in your future contributions at the JREF. While you had some very salient points in that post, you created what I refer to as a textberg. A textberg is daunting chunk of text that causes the average reader to think Well, I just am not even going to try getting through that.

The way to avoid textbergs and invite people to read your posts is to make proper use of paragraphs. Paragraphs are best employed based on managable chunks of information based on subject. As such, let me put that textberg of yours, which contains valuable thoughts, in a more reader friendly format...




There we have rather than a sizable block of text that deters the reader from actually taking the time to read it, to four managable paragraphs that can be easily read. Please don't interpret my advice as negative criticism, but rather friendly help from a fellow member that has experience with effective writing in the internet forum medium.

Kitakaze, you just deterred the below the average forum writer to make further contributions... :) just kidding, thanks for the advice. I'll take it in account. Can the original post be edited?

[WGBH]

Back to the topic:

Having a hallucination is a known phenomenon. If it occurs one-time in half the population, and only 1/100% of those 150,000,000 believe what they thought they saw to be a bigfoot, that is 15,000 people, if only 10% of those people actually report a bigfoot sighting, that is 1,500 reports per year involving a hallucination. We are talking about tiny percentages of the population actually mistaking what they saw for Bigfoot.

When you compare it to the idea that there is a Giant, North American, Hairy, Bipedal Monster stalking the woods and rural driveways of North America, hurling pigs, porpoising while salmon fishing, the hallucination possibility dwarfs this idea in likelihood.

The other thing that leads me to believe that some of these sightings are Hallucination related, is that the sightings occur in ALL areas of the world. China, Indonesia, Australia, Nepal, Russia, Canada, South America...
Do you think a living Bipedal, Giant, hairy primate is really that widespread?
Let alone the idea that it lives in Alaska, BC, Washington, Idaho, Colorado, Oklahoma, Texas, Missouri, Arkansas, Louisiana every continental state and Canada. Does anyone really think that is possible? Oh... really?!? Really?

I save my opinions about Bigfoot research for people who actually get in the field or have the field experience to constructively criticize it.

I do think Bigfoot are widespread geographically, but I do not think the animal exists in great numbers.

[LTC8K6]

Ha ha! Another bigfoot research faker...

[Drewbot]

2009... it was a very good year. FOR BIGFOOTERS LYING ABOUT STUFF!

[kitakaze]

Kitakaze, you just deterred the below the average forum writer to make further contributions... :) just kidding, thanks for the advice. I'll take it in account. Can the original post be edited?

There's a window of something like two hours after you submit a post that it can be edited by you. After that time the only person who can edit it is a mods or admin, which they would only do if it violated the membership agreement in some way.

[kitakaze]

No ideas at all.

OK, so both of us are drawing blanks for reasonable options of an external agent that caused you to have a seizure just before you witnessed the massive beast unknown to science 27 years ago just outside Elizabeth City in North Carolina.

Can you think of a physiological cause for a type of seizure? This doesn't need to include something that would cause you to hallucinate.

[kitakaze]

I save my opinions about Bigfoot research for people who actually get in the field or have the field experience to constructively criticize it.

Does this refer to people who have a great amount of experience with mountains, forests, and wildlife such as myself, or just people who go look for Bigfoot? I ask this because you don't know a single person who's ever come up with a single shred of reliable evidence and get constructive criticism from people who don't believe in Bigfoot all the time.

I do think Bigfoot are widespread geographically, but I do not think the animal exists in great numbers.

Well, they must not live in in any significant numbers at all if they are to elude science. So what is a number you are thinking for Bigfoot's population? Also, can you list for me which states you think Bigfoot doesn't exist in? How do these animals avoid bottlenecking their breeding population?

Remember now, being extremely rare and elusive and living in remote areas does not keep you from being a known animal in North America...

vspuhFs5lZE

[WGBH]

Does this refer to people who have a great amount of experience with mountains, forests, and wildlife such as myself, or just people who go look for Bigfoot? I ask this because you don't know a single person who's ever come up with a single shred of reliable evidence and get constructive criticism from people who don't believe in Bigfoot all the time.

Kit, I love the PNW and it would be great for you to show me around. I personally never go out to look for Bigfoot, I just follow around my friends who do. I am just learning my way around the woods.

Didn't you see me in the Dolly Sods video sleeping in my camp chair? That is how the WGBH rolls...:D

Right, no one really knows jack about finding Bigfoot, but I am always looking to learn, try and hear new ideas.

I would love to learn Drew's technique for charging blindly at noises in the dark with a large knife. :D



Well, they must not live in in any significant numbers at all if they are to elude science. So what is a number you are thinking for Bigfoot's population?

IMO about 2 thousand.

Also, can you list for me which states you think Bigfoot doesn't exist in?

I think the two states with no sightings are Rhode Island and Hawaii. I cant really answer that question because I have only been squatching in VA, WV, PA, Ohio and Washington State.


How do these animals avoid bottlenecking their breeding population?

You mean inbreeding or just plain finding each other? Either way I am sure they are finding obstacles.

Remember now, being extremely rare and elusive and living in remote areas does not keep you from being a known animal in North America...


Of course not.

[WGBH]

OK, so both of us are drawing blanks for reasonable options of an external agent that caused you to have a seizure just before you witnessed the massive beast unknown to science 27 years ago just outside Elizabeth City in North Carolina.

Can you think of a physiological cause for a type of seizure? This doesn't need to include something that would cause you to hallucinate.

I think Drew, Vort and yourself have already listed several of those possible causes.

[HarryHenderson]

Good Morning Harry,

I will admit that I need to be more patient and probably over reacted. I am not humbled in the least by the JREF and please explain why you think I should be. Is it because you feel I have been treated well by the members here? Fine, but that is the way people should act in a public forum and IMO it does not really need to be acknowledged. It should be expected. For the record, I have no problem at all with my personal treatment here at the JREF and If I did, I can just ignore the people responsible.

My "friends" are not mysterious people on a internet forum who I have no personal connection or experience with.

Okay so the straight-up honest in-your-face approach didn't quite work. Fine. Let's try another way. You John Cartwright come here to a skeptic's forum, describe your own Bigfoot experience of some 25 years ago, express and lament the 'negative effect' the experience has had on you those same last 25 years, and THEN (essentially) REFUSE to SINCERELY and INTELLIGENTLY consider virtually everything the forum mentions if its core idea doesn't somehow involve something that's not only F&B, but only F&B Bigfoot.

But let's forget all that. The nice people here at the JREF somehow someway like you anyway, you seem like a nice enough guy and your adult life has seemed more than a bit troubled by this Bigfoot 'thang'. They are concerned. They start wanting to know the cause of your angst as much as you do. And thus to get to the bottom of it they allow you your 'contemptuous disdain' for their regular (usually) intelligent and inevitably helpful input so as to help you put all the pieces together. They are actually interested and concerned. So much so in fact they literally refuse to mention barely a word that might be construed in any way as some kind of 'offense' to you. Nobody wants to unduly 'upset' Mr. John Cartwright, and yet Mr. John Cartwright has done scant little to actually deserve such EXTRA SPECIAL TREATMENT ('special' in that I'm not aware of any other posters at the JREF receiving such). That is unless you consider John Cartwright's 'humoring the clowns' and 'shining everyone on' attitude to be appropriate. You John Cartwright are given EVERY and ALL benefit-of-the-doubt by these people about your so-called 'Bigfoot encounter' ALL WHILE you REJECT out of hand almost EVERYTHING logical and intelligent they say to you.

So anyway, the astute and savvy 'big cheese' of The John Cartwright Bigfoot And Equal Rights Project, Kitakaze, righteously attempts to take you under his wing so as to potentially mentor you in the ways of 'reality versus hope'. Yet FAILS at every turn to convince you not only is it possible you didn't see a real Bigfoot, but that it's HIGHLY LIKELY you didn't. He's unwaivering though, he trudges on, and with the patience of Job, regularly and methodically tackles the JC Project, inevitably HOPING to be a part of some kind of a Bigfoot breakthrough with JC. If for no other reason than to allow JC to get on with his life and finally get some damn sleep.

But NOPE it's not to be. Everything I mention above is still not enough for one Mr. John Cartwright. He considers, and has apparently convinced others of his group, ANY attempts at an 'intelligent discussion' of his case to be a PERSECUTION OF HIM if it in any way contradicts his contention that what he saw was a real live beast. As such, all the collective INTELLIGENCE in what has been said in the thousands and thousands of words put forth on behalf of John Cartwright literally becomes moot.

And then POOF, somebody popped a 'random funny' that John Cartwright disapproved of and BLAM...it's reported! Oh and that 'somebody who was funny' is that same PRO-John Cartwright advocate mentioned above. The single ONE GUY John Cartwright SHOULD have held some serious 'Bigfoot respect' for...but just couldn't. Not sure how much more obvious I need to be to show John Cartwright hasn't a clue who his 'friends' are.

I admit I was wrong about John Cartwright in my previous post. He needs a lot more than some humbling.

I'm now sooo done, done and DONE with this! Good luck!

[WGBH]

Wow, even Kit is not that mad.

[tsig]

So your theory is that I began a hoax in 1998 when I made my BFRO report and waited 8 years to spring my trap? I have only been talking about my encounter since 2006 and only publicly for about a year.

When you say you have seen something that is contradictory to facts certain conclusions must be drawn.

[kitakaze]

Wow, even Kit is not that mad.

I'm not even that mad? I forgot where I was a little mad. Am I mad? I don't feel very mad. Where was I mad?

Really, I'm not mad. I would like to help in any way I can, but I can only help as much as the other person is willing. I can't be a doctor or psychologist. I can only look at the scenario deductively.

It's quite simple...

1) Seizure.

2) Bigfoot sighting.

Related or unrelated? Did the Bigfoot make the seizure, did the seizure make the Bigfoot, or did the seizure just coincidentally happen right before the Bigfoot sighting? John will not allow for the second option, considers the first, and says the third is most likely.

As a rational thinking person, I can confidentally rule out the first option. Apes do not frazzle people with infrasound or chemical attacks. The second one is what is in accordance with known and documented phenomena. People can see things under the right circumstances. I think the seizure is directly related to the sighting. I think its really a far outside that John got some external agent that caused the seizure and hallucination. I think it was something physiological/neurological. Stress induced, anxiety induced, something. Maybe he saw something and confabulated it in his mind. Maybe something totally different happened and John's mind made a false Bigfoot memory. There really does seem to be an inordinate amount of trauma just from seeing a big ape blithely chewing on mulberry branches 50 yards away.

John isn't having any of that, so all I can do is to continue to say "OK, let's look deductively at the other options." It's important to remember that we can't just settle at accepting he saw Bigfoot. We will always have to take into account the seizure also. I think the likelihood of those events being unrelated is just too far out there, AFAIC.

[WGBH]

I'm not even that mad? I forgot where I was a little mad. Am I mad? I don't feel very mad. Where was I mad?

Really, I'm not mad. I would like to help in any way I can, but I can only help as much as the other person is willing. I can't be a doctor or psychologist. I can only look at the scenario deductively.

It's quite simple...

1) Seizure.

2) Bigfoot sighting.

Related or unrelated? Did the Bigfoot make the seizure, did the seizure make the Bigfoot, or did the seizure just coincidentally happen right before the Bigfoot sighting? John will not allow for the second option, considers the first, and says the third is most likely.

As a rational thinking person, I can confidentally rule out the first option. Apes do not frazzle people with infrasound or chemical attacks. The second one is what is in accordance with known and documented phenomena. People can see things under the right circumstances. I think the seizure is directly related to the sighting. I think its really a far outside that John got some external agent that caused the seizure and hallucination. I think it was something physiological/neurological. Stress induced, anxiety induced, something. Maybe he saw something and confabulated it in his mind. Maybe something totally different happened and John's mind made a false Bigfoot memory. There really does seem to be an inordinate amount of trauma just from seeing a big ape blithely chewing on mulberry branches 50 yards away.

John isn't having any of that, so all I can do is to continue to say "OK, let's look deductively at the other options." It's important to remember that we can't just settle at accepting he saw Bigfoot. We will always have to take into account the seizure also. I think the likelihood of those events being unrelated is just too far out there, AFAIC.

I know you are not mad. Lets go over this:

As a rational thinking person, I can confidentally rule out the first option. Apes do not frazzle people with infrasound or chemical attacks.

I would tend to agree with this. I lean towards the 2 events being unrelated.

The second one is what is in accordance with known and documented phenomena. People can see things under the right circumstances. I think the seizure is directly related to the sighting. I think its really a far outside that John got some external agent that caused the seizure and hallucination. I think it was something physiological/neurological.

Of these 2 theories the most plausible would be neurological and that IMO
is a big stretch. There was no history and nothing physically wrong with me.

Stress induced, anxiety induced, something.

Nope and Nope

Maybe he saw something and confabulated it in his mind. Maybe something totally different happened and John's mind made a false Bigfoot memory.

Always possible, but as I have asked before, why a Bigfoot? I hardly knew what a Bigfoot was.

There really does seem to be an inordinate amount of trauma just from seeing a big ape blithely chewing on mulberry branches 50 yards away.

I get that a lot. What the heck scared you so bad John? Perhaps a Huge Monster come to life standing in front of me? Regardless of if it was real (and it was) , it's enough to give any kid nightmares.

[Vortigern99]

Of [kitikaze's] 2 theories the most plausible would be neurological and that IMO is a big stretch. There was no history and nothing physically wrong with me.

I think this is the closest WGBH has come to allowing the possibility that his experience might have been with something other than a real, living animal.

I would like to repeat here that thousands of normal, sane, healthy people have experienced one-time hallucinations that never recurred (apologies for the redundancy; see Drewbot's numbers crunching, upthread on this page).

A singular hallucination brought on by fatigue, isolation and/or stress -- all of which WGBH describes in his original account of the incident -- does not require a "history" of hallucinations, nor any other ailment, physiological or neurological, in order to present itself a single time.

Stress induced, anxiety induced, something.

Nope and Nope

WGBH, your own account of the event contradicts your repeated (and terse) assertions that stress, anxiety and fatigue were not factors in the sighting. The stress you describe as being associated with being isolated in a small, contained space up in a tree, holding a loaded rifle, when you had never been in the woods or armed with a loaded weapon prior to that night, is sufficient to counter your claim that you experienced no anxiety. The lateness/earliness of the hour counters your assertion that you experienced no fatigue.

Maybe he saw something and confabulated it in his mind. Maybe something totally different happened and John's mind made a false Bigfoot memory.

Always possible, but as I have asked before, why a Bigfoot? I hardly knew what a Bigfoot was.

Yes, you asked that before, but when I offered a reply, back on page 36, you offered no response:

I don't understand why you think there has to be a reason that you, or anyone, might hallucinate one specific image over another. Why does kitkaze sometimes hallucinate a demonic entity trying to strangle him in his bed? Why do people hallucinate short gray beings abducting them and/or performing odd medical experiments on them? Why have other JREF members seen any number of weird figures crossing the road as they drive late at night on lonely roads? Why did medieval nuns sometimes hallucinate that the devil was visiting them in their bed at night to suck the life out of them and/or rape them?

These are fascinating questions worthy of inquiry, but that there is a mystery involved does not point towards the objective reality of the object or personage that is being hallucinated.

Hallucination is a waking dream. You're not responsible for the imagery being projected from your subconscious during a dream; as I'm sure you well know, on any given night you might dream any number of bizarre events/characters/images that may or may not have any relationship to the people or events you've encountered in your waking life.

So it is with hallucination. There is no reason for the images being projected, so far as we know; what's important [in this case] is simply that they occur.

[Cuddles]

I lean towards the 2 events being unrelated.

...snip...

Of these 2 theories the most plausible would be neurological and that IMO
is a big stretch. There was no history and nothing physically wrong with me.

There appears to be a rather serious contradiction here. On the one hand, you say that the two events were probably unrelated. Given that the "bigfoot" was not the cause of the seizure, clearly it must have had some other, presumably normal, cause. But in the second case you dismiss that by claiming that there was nothing wrong with you and no prior history.

So how does that add up? Either you agree it was a regular seizure, in which case clearly there was something wrong with you and the lack of history is irrelevant, or it was not a regular seizure and the two events were somehow connected. You can't have it both ways. If you want the events to be separate, you have to accept that a seizure of that kind can explain all the events without needing to postulate the existence of bigfoot. If you don't accept that, then you pretty much have to assume that bigfoot caused the seizure. The only other choice is to claim that you had some kind of extra-special seizure that wasn't caused by bigfoot, but has nothing in common with regular seizures and would count as a paranormal, or at least pseudoscientific, claim in its own right.

[clayflingythingy]

So your theory is that I began a hoax in 1998 when I made my BFRO report and waited 8 years to spring my trap? I have only been talking about my encounter since 2006 and only publicly for about a year.

Since BF doesn't exist, you didn't have an "encounter".

[Drewbot]

There appears to be a rather serious contradiction here. On the one hand, you say that the two events were probably unrelated. Given that the "bigfoot" was not the cause of the seizure, clearly it must have had some other, presumably normal, cause. But in the second case you dismiss that by claiming that there was nothing wrong with you and no prior history.

So how does that add up? Either you agree it was a regular seizure, in which case clearly there was something wrong with you and the lack of history is irrelevant, or it was not a regular seizure and the two events were somehow connected. You can't have it both ways. If you want the events to be separate, you have to accept that a seizure of that kind can explain all the events without needing to postulate the existence of bigfoot. If you don't accept that, then you pretty much have to assume that bigfoot caused the seizure. The only other choice is to claim that you had some kind of extra-special seizure that wasn't caused by bigfoot, but has nothing in common with regular seizures and would count as a paranormal, or at least pseudoscientific, claim in its own right.

Thank you Lt. Caffy. His seizure was not caused by Bigfoot, yet he was too healthy to have a seizure.

My point, and I believe Vort's point is that Narcolepsy does not affect only unhealthy people, it affects otherwise healthy people as well. WGBH's pristine health at the time has no bearing on whether he could have had a cataplectic attack due to Narcolepsy. And since he has not said whether he was given an MSLT test (nap test) his doctor can not rule that out. If one of my patients tells me he is having bad dreams, is sleeping alot, and is tired during the day, I would ask him if he has ever collapsed in a heap before, If he said yes I would 100% prescribe an MSLT.

John, have you told your doctor, that you collapsed in a heap that day, and that it happened while having a very emotional experience?

If you have, and he hasn't sent you to a sleep specialist, then I would get a second opinion.

[Drewbot]

Cuddles? What happened to William Parcher's post about BigTex, The post about how BigTex (A self-proclaimed Bigfoot hunter) embellishes, if not lies about stories?

WilliamParcher's point was that Bigfooters don't really see Bigfoot, just as they don't really see Rat Snakes eating cats on their porch.

The OP : ....anyone seen a real life sasquatch?

William Parcher was saying 'No' they don't see sasquatch, they fib about it.

PS - I think it was around POST 1676

[WGBH]

I think this is the closest WGBH has come to allowing the possibility that his experience might have been with something other than a real, living animal.

There is ALWAYS a possibility Vort. There is also a possibilty I saw what I saw.

I would like to repeat here that thousands of normal, sane, healthy people have experienced one-time hallucinations that never recurred (apologies for the redundancy; see Drewbot's numbers crunching, upthread on this page).

Right

A singular hallucination brought on by fatigue, isolation and/or stress -- all of which WGBH describes in his original account of the incident -- does not require a "history" of hallucinations, nor any other ailment, physiological or neurological, in order to present itself a single time.

I was not stressed until the sighting.



WGBH, your own account of the event contradicts your repeated (and terse) assertions that stress, anxiety and fatigue were not factors in the sighting. The stress you describe as being associated with being isolated in a small, contained space up in a tree, holding a loaded rifle, when you had never been in the woods or armed with a loaded weapon prior to that night, is sufficient to counter your claim that you experienced no anxiety. The lateness/earliness of the hour counters your assertion that you experienced no fatigue.

See above answer. I also was not holding the rifle, it was lying on the floor of the stand.


Yes, you asked that before, but when I offered a reply, back on page 36, you offered no response:

Sorry Vort, I am going to need a better answer then " the mind can come up with weird things."

[WGBH]

Thank you Lt. Caffy. His seizure was not caused by Bigfoot, yet he was too healthy to have a seizure.

My point, and I believe Vort's point is that Narcolepsy does not affect only unhealthy people, it affects otherwise healthy people as well. WGBH's pristine health at the time has no bearing on whether he could have had a cataplectic attack due to Narcolepsy. And since he has not said whether he was given an MSLT test (nap test) his doctor can not rule that out. If one of my patients tells me he is having bad dreams, is sleeping alot, and is tired during the day, I would ask him if he has ever collapsed in a heap before, If he said yes I would 100% prescribe an MSLT.

John, have you told your doctor, that you collapsed in a heap that day, and that it happened while having a very emotional experience?

If you have, and he hasn't sent you to a sleep specialist, then I would get a second opinion.


Drew, which part of I went to sleep disorder Docs BEFORE the psychologist did you not understand? Yes I told the psychologist the entire story.

[WGBH]

There appears to be a rather serious contradiction here. On the one hand, you say that the two events were probably unrelated. Given that the "bigfoot" was not the cause of the seizure, clearly it must have had some other, presumably normal, cause. But in the second case you dismiss that by claiming that there was nothing wrong with you and no prior history.

So how does that add up? Either you agree it was a regular seizure, in which case clearly there was something wrong with you and the lack of history is irrelevant, or it was not a regular seizure and the two events were somehow connected. You can't have it both ways. If you want the events to be separate, you have to accept that a seizure of that kind can explain all the events without needing to postulate the existence of bigfoot. If you don't accept that, then you pretty much have to assume that bigfoot caused the seizure. The only other choice is to claim that you had some kind of extra-special seizure that wasn't caused by bigfoot, but has nothing in common with regular seizures and would count as a paranormal, or at least pseudoscientific, claim in its own right.

There are other reasons that could have caused the seizure episode most have been listed here. Maybe it was not a seizure at all?

[rockinkt]

...may not have any relationship to the people or events you've encountered in your waking life.


Sooo - you're saying that my dreams about me and Nicole Kidman have no basis in fact?
Damn! You really know how to hurt a guy.

[Drewbot]

Drew, which part of I went to sleep disorder Docs BEFORE the psychologist did you not understand? Yes I told the psychologist the entire story.

Yes, but you never said if he gave you an MSLT (nap test), this would be the test that rules out Narcolepsy. Geesh.

[Bitter Monk]

Yes I told the psychologist the entire story.

Including your sighting? If you're willing to share I'd love to hear the psychologist's take on it.

[kitakaze]

There are other reasons that could have caused the seizure episode most have been listed here. Maybe it was not a seizure at all?

John, I have a few questions.

1) It was between September and October in North Carolina. Were there many insects such as mosquitoes in the woods by the Pasquotank River?

2) From the time you came to the Pasquotank, can you remember everything you ate up until your sighting? At least from the time you were up.

3) Do you have any photos from when you were 17?

[kitakaze]

My point, and I believe Vort's point is that Narcolepsy does not affect only unhealthy people, it affects otherwise healthy people as well.

I am healthy and athletic. I got narcolepsy one time from some Cuervo. One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, FLOOR!

[William Parcher]

When it was standing there I could see muscles moving and tendons


The muscles on the neck, arms and back. Such as the deltoids, lats and triceps. The fur was mated and caked with mud in places. There were also some thinner fur patches where it was easier to view the skin, especially in places on the back. The fur on the depiction is cosmetically neater then the real animal. That artwork is to be used for a book by the artist, so keep that in mind.


Besides the seeing-a-nonexistent-animal part, it's the level of details in John's encounter story that has me skeptical. It was supposed to be about 50 yards away (150'). Yet he talks about seeing muscles, tendons, eyes and the little berries in spite of intense fear and nausea.

Given the distance, those kinds of details wouldn't be visible or noticed even if it was a (upright) bear. It's as if Bigfoot caused John to suddenly have bionic vision and memory.

[William Parcher]

Do you remain friends with these people to this day?



Absolutely not. It ruined my friendship. In fact, when my (ex) friend tried to embarass me about it in school later that year, I beat the crap out of him and got a suspension. They moved away 20 years ago anyway.


It's a shame that various factoids cannot be confirmed as true. We have no access to the others that were hunting with John in order to confirm anything. We can't confirm that he was actually suspended from school for fighting over a Bigfoot encounter.

Longtabber had two encounter stories. In both cases the other witnesses were unavailable for confirmation of various things. It was only after years of BF postings that LTPE was found to have fabricated his military history by way of an official inquiry. Too bad we cannot find out if John actually was suspended for fighting in school. We can't even confirm that he went hunting with his friends.

[WGBH]

Yes, but you never said if he gave you an MSLT (nap test), this would be the test that rules out Narcolepsy. Geesh.

That came out bad, sorry.

[WGBH]

Including your sighting? If you're willing to share I'd love to hear the psychologist's take on it.

Yes including the sighting. No he did not believe it.

[WGBH]

John, I have a few questions.

1) It was between September and October in North Carolina. Were there many insects such as mosquitoes in the woods by the Pasquotank River?

2) From the time you came to the Pasquotank, can you remember everything you ate up until your sighting? At least from the time you were up.

3) Do you have any photos from when you were 17?

It was Labor Day weekend Beginning of Sept 1982. Not sure of the exact dates.

That friday night before when we left home we went to MickyD's. Later that Friday night when we got to the cabins. We ate something, I cant remember, maybe hot dogs. The next morning I did not eat at all.

There is a photo of me when I was 18 , on my face book page. I had just graduated high School.

[WGBH]

Besides the seeing-a-nonexistent-animal part, it's the level of details in John's encounter story that has me skeptical. It was supposed to be about 50 yards away (150'). Yet he talks about seeing muscles, tendons, eyes and the little berries in spite of intense fear and nausea.

Given the distance, those kinds of details wouldn't be visible or noticed even if it was a (upright) bear. It's as if Bigfoot caused John to suddenly have bionic vision and memory.

I think you need to go back and refresh your memory.

Not that it matters, but I was probably closer then 50 yards as I mentioned in the article. I could see it well. To give you perspective. I could see fingers but not finger nails. Could not see the facial features very well as I mentioned all I could see was dark eyes. The muscles I saw were back muscles and I could see them moving clearly.

[sugarb]

Kitakaze, my husband has registered. It is still saying he cannot post, so when he can he will participate in this thread.

I really don't have anything to add, but as he was reading through the thread, he told me that I had missed a question about the arms. I apologize for not answering, but I don't understand the pictures. The arms were hanging down but swinging, they weren't just...um...hanging stiffly, they were moving, just as our arms do as we take strides. They just weren't bent upward at the elbows. Sorry I missed that.

[WGBH]

[QUOTE=William Parcher;5376572]It's a shame that various factoids cannot be confirmed as true. We have no access to the others that were hunting with John in order to confirm anything. We can't confirm that he was actually suspended from school for fighting over a Bigfoot encounter.
QUOTE]

Yes, they could verify was the story I told them and how frightened I was.They did not witness anything. My ex-friend would have been able to verify the fight. I do not see what help that would be.

[kitakaze]

It was Labor Day weekend Beginning of Sept 1982. Not sure of the exact dates.

That friday night before when we left home we went to MickyD's. Later that Friday night when we got to the cabins. We ate something, I cant remember, maybe hot dogs. The next morning I did not eat at all.

There is a photo of me when I was 18 , on my face book page. I had just graduated high School.

Thanks for some clarification.

Were there many insects such as mosquitoes in the woods by the Pasquotank River?

You had no breakfast and ate nothing whatsoever from the time you awoke until after you saw the Bigfoot? You must have been very hungry.

You can post the photo here easily by adding it to a photo album available up in your CP options.

[kitakaze]

Kitakaze, my husband has registered. It is still saying he cannot post, so when he can he will participate in this thread.

What handle did your husband create when he registered? If he can't post, both of you should PM Darat and Lisa Simpson to let them know and that you are a married couple using the same computer.

[sugarb]

What handle did your husband create when he registered? If he can't post, both of you should PM Darat and Lisa Simpson to let them know and that you are a married couple using the same computer.

Medic212. Thank you.

[Bitter Monk]

Not that it matters, but I was probably closer then 50 yards as I mentioned in the article. I could see it well. To give you perspective. I could see fingers but not finger nails. Could not see the facial features very well as I mentioned all I could see was dark eyes. The muscles I saw were back muscles and I could see them moving clearly.

People typically suck at estimating distance unless they have some practice at it. Even then it can be tricky. John very well could have been closer but misjudged the distance. The recreation mentioned in the Blogsquatcher article would better help establish an estimated distance, but the only way a true distance could be known would be by going back to the actual location.

[kitakaze]

Medic212. Thank you.

You're welcome. OK, he's not on the members list which means either he didn't register properly or what I suspect is the case, that his account hasn't been approved as it is coming from the same IP address as you. It should just be a matter of showing admins that you are a married couple using the same computer.

[WGBH]

Thanks for some clarification.

Were there many insects such as mosquitoes in the woods by the Pasquotank River?

You had no breakfast and ate nothing whatsoever from the time you awoke until after you saw the Bigfoot? You must have been very hungry.

You can post the photo here easily by adding it to a photo album available up in your CP options.

Not on that day, no bugs bothering me. I hate bugs

I have never been one to eat much in the morning. Even now I have to force myself to eat toast when I take my meds.

I don't have a photo album. I use face book. But I can try to figure something out.

[WGBH]

People typically suck at estimating distance unless they have some practice at it. Even then it can be tricky. John very well could have been closer but misjudged the distance. The recreation mentioned in the Blogsquatcher article would better help establish an estimated distance, but the only way a true distance could be known would be by going back to the actual location.

I know I suck at it. When Billy and I tried to judge the distance ourselves (we did not physically measure) he said it was less than 50. I was also 10-12 feet high in a tree.

[Bitter Monk]

If you didn't do a physical measurement then how did Billy know it was less than 50 yards? Did he guestimate too?

[WGBH]

If you didn't do a physical measurement then how did Billy know it was less than 50 yards? Did he guestimate too?

yep

[Bitter Monk]

Lord. See this is why people laugh at us.

Researcher 1 -"They say witnesses are unreliable. We'll show we're serious and we'll take our witness and conduct a test to determine the real distance. That'll show 'em"

Researcher 2 - "Brilliant! Did you bring a measuring tape?"

Researcher 1 -"Uh, no."

Researcher 2 -"We'll guestimate!"

[tsig]

Sorry Vort, I am going to need a better answer then " the mind can come up with weird things."

Why didn't you shoot it?

[tsig]

Sooo - you're saying that my dreams about me and Nicole Kidman have no basis in fact?
Damn! You really know how to hurt a guy.

Yep, you and Beyonce', in your dreams

[kitakaze]

Not on that day, no bugs bothering me. I hate bugs

I have never been one to eat much in the morning. Even now I have to force myself to eat toast when I take my meds.

I don't have a photo album. I use face book. But I can try to figure something out.


When you go in the woods, do you use an insect repellent such as OFF! ?

Have you ever heard of the plant called jimson weed?

User CP tab (upper left of the screen) > Pictures & Albums > Add Album > Browse > select the picture > voilà!

[kitakaze]

Lord. See this is why people laugh at us.

Researcher 1 -"They say witnesses are unreliable. We'll show we're serious and we'll take our witness and conduct a test to determine the real distance. That'll show 'em"

Researcher 2 - "Brilliant! Did you bring a measuring tape?"

Researcher 1 -"Uh, no."

Researcher 2 -"We'll guestimate!"

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1376

You went all the way to revisit the site with Billy and you didn't actually measure the distance. Why?

Here is a football field (http://www.hprcc.unl.edu/nebraska/Dsc_2617d70sm5.jpg). Look at the distance between 0 - 50 yards. Look at the point between 40 and 50 yards and then at the 0 yard line. You could see muscle moving and other fine details at that distance.

[tsig]

Besides the seeing-a-nonexistent-animal part, it's the level of details in John's encounter story that has me skeptical. It was supposed to be about 50 yards away (150'). Yet he talks about seeing muscles, tendons, eyes and the little berries in spite of intense fear and nausea.

Given the distance, those kinds of details wouldn't be visible or noticed even if it was a (upright) bear. It's as if Bigfoot caused John to suddenly have bionic vision and memory.

Yes the laws of optics be dammed. nevermind that his eyes would have to be the size of dinnerplates to see that level of detail.

[tsig]

[QUOTE the facial features very well as I mentioned all I could see was dark eyes. The muscles I saw were back muscles and I could see them moving clearly.[/QUOTE]

Face and back at the same time?

[tsig]

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1376

you went all the way to revisit the site with billy and you didn't actually measure the distance. Why?

Here is a football field (http://www.hprcc.unl.edu/nebraska/dsc_2617d70sm5.jpg). Look at the distance between 0 - 50 yards. Look at the point between 40 and 50 yards and then at the 0 yard line. You could see muscle moving and other fine details at that distance.

hdtv

[WGBH]

double post.

[WGBH]

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1376

You went all the way to revisit the site with Billy and you didn't actually measure the distance. Why?

Here is a football field (http://www.hprcc.unl.edu/nebraska/Dsc_2617d70sm5.jpg). Look at the distance between 0 - 50 yards. Look at the point between 40 and 50 yards and then at the 0 yard line. You could see muscle moving and other fine details at that distance.

No, I have never returned to the site. I don't even know exactly where it is. We were just hiking in Ohio and approximated. Measure it with what? That is a totally different perspective from what I had, not even close. I don't know exactly how far it was. If you and I were in the street you could walk away and I could tell you to stop.

[WGBH]

[QUOTE the facial features very well as I mentioned all I could see was dark eyes. The muscles I saw were back muscles and I could see them moving clearly.

Face and back at the same time?[/QUOTE]

Tsig, it would be easier if you just read the article.

[WGBH]

Lord. See this is why people laugh at us.

Researcher 1 -"They say witnesses are unreliable. We'll show we're serious and we'll take our witness and conduct a test to determine the real distance. That'll show 'em"

Researcher 2 - "Brilliant! Did you bring a measuring tape?"

Researcher 1 -"Uh, no."

Researcher 2 -"We'll guestimate!"

uhm, what are you talking about? This what not a witness-investigator scenario. This was three people hiking in the woods.

Billy to John- How far away do you think it was?
John to Billy- Keep walking and I will say when to stop.
John to Billy- Stop
John to Billy- That looks about right.
Billy to John- That is less then 50 yards.
Tom to Billy- I agree.

The end.

[Bitter Monk]

uhm, what are you talking about?

I'm talking about this...
“About, I’m going to say less than 50 yards. I’ve always said 50 yards, but then [fellow Sasquatch Watch of Virginia researchers] Billy and Tom took me out in the woods and I kind of gauged how close I was and they were telling me that I was closer than 50 yards.

As I said gauging distance can be difficult for an untrained observer. As part of their "investigation" of your sighting, they took you out to an area other than the location of your sighting in order to attempt to recreate the distance the object was observed. The only reason to do that would be to attempt to attain an accurate distance. So in order to ascertain the distance, since witnesses have a difficult time at determining distance by observation, they took you somewhere and attempted to ascertain the distance by observation.

In looking at the Sasquatch Watch gallery I see several photos that include tape measures. Overlooking the fact that they were attempting to recreate an aspect of your sighting at a different location, there's simply no excuse to rely on guesswork when all they're doing is replacing your guess with theirs.


Billy to John- How far away do you think it was?
John to Billy- Keep walking and I will say when to stop.
John to Billy- Stop
John to Billy- That looks about right.
Billy to John- That is less then 50 yards.
Tom to Billy- I agree.

The end.

Exactly my point. They replaced your guess with their guess.

[WGBH]

I'm talking about this...


As I said gauging distance can be difficult for an untrained observer. As part of their "investigation" of your sighting, they took you out to an area other than the location of your sighting in order to attempt to recreate the distance the object was observed. The only reason to do that would be to attempt to attain an accurate distance. So in order to ascertain the distance, since witnesses have a difficult time at determining distance by observation, they took you somewhere and attempted to ascertain the distance by observation.

In looking at the Sasquatch Watch gallery I see several photos that include tape measures. Overlooking the fact that they were attempting to recreate an aspect of your sighting at a different location, there's simply no excuse to rely on guesswork when all they're doing is replacing your guess with theirs.



Exactly my point. They replaced your guess with their guess.

This was not a investigation of any type. We were not attempting to re-create anything. We were walking and chatting in the woods. Where are you getting this idea from?

[Bitter Monk]

This was not a investigation of any type. We were not attempting to re-create anything. We were walking and chatting in the woods. Where are you getting this idea from?

William Parcher directly challenged your accounting of the detail by saying the distance you gave was too great (which I agree with).

I replied that witnesses were notoriously bad at estimating things like distance. You then replied...

I know I suck at it. When Billy and I tried to judge the distance ourselves (we did not physically measure) he said it was less than 50. I was also 10-12 feet high in a tree.

I'm getting it directly from you John. I specifically put "investigate" in quotes because it obviously wasn't a true investigation.

[mikeyx]

I'm talking about this...


As I said gauging distance can be difficult for an untrained observer. As part of their "investigation" of your sighting, they took you out to an area other than the location of your sighting in order to attempt to recreate the distance the object was observed. The only reason to do that would be to attempt to attain an accurate distance. So in order to ascertain the distance, since witnesses have a difficult time at determining distance by observation, they took you somewhere and attempted to ascertain the distance by observation.

In looking at the Sasquatch Watch gallery I see several photos that include tape measures. Overlooking the fact that they were attempting to recreate an aspect of your sighting at a different location, there's simply no excuse to rely on guesswork when all they're doing is replacing your guess with theirs.



Exactly my point. They replaced your guess with their guess.

care to comment on you doing most of your research in timberghost country, or so I've heard? A stone's throw from mabrc country?

[WGBH]

William Parcher directly challenged your accounting of the detail by saying the distance you gave was too great (which I agree with).

I replied that witnesses were notoriously bad at estimating things like distance. You then replied...



I'm getting it directly from you John. I specifically put "investigate" in quotes because it obviously wasn't a true investigation.

I agree with William and you. It probably was not 50 yards. Which is why I now say "less then 50 yards." I have no idea exactly how far away the animal was, but I described what I could and could not see.

[LuvGodzilla]

You witnessed the subject from a height of somewhere between 10 and 12 feet from the deer stand. The subject was approximately 9x5.5 feet in height/width.

You mentioned a viewing port (mail slot) size.

The deer stand was camo netted.

You mention that you viewed the subject from the waist up.

You feel it was less than 150 ft away (you haven't given us a number to replace the 50 yds yet).

Were you viewing it from the mail slot sized port or through the camo net?

If you were above the subject and the deer stand floor (?) is 10 to 12 feet high, where in the deer stand were you viewing it from - standing up, sitting or kneeling?

Thank you.

[Bitter Monk]

I agree with William and you. It probably was not 50 yards. Which is why I now say "less then 50 yards." I have no idea exactly how far away the animal was, but I described what I could and could not see.

That's fair enough John. I wasn't criticizing you. I was criticizing the attempt to ascertain the distance.

care to comment on you doing most of your research in timberghost country, or so I've heard? A stone's throw from mabrc country?

I like that. You know the MABRC has a bad rap. You also know I've never worked with or for the MABRC. By your logic everyone should just pack up and go home since Tom Biscardi has at one time or another visited just about everyone's backyard. That would be most unfortunate as it would leave 'bleevers and skeptics alike with nothing much to talk about.

[WGBH]

You witnessed the subject from a height of somewhere between 10 and 12 feet from the deer stand. The subject was approximately 9x5.5 feet in height/width.

Correct

You mentioned a viewing port (mail slot) size.

Correct

The deer stand was camo netted.

Not netting it was canvas type material.

You mention that you viewed the subject from the waist up.

Correct

You feel it was less than 150 ft away (you haven't given us a number to replace the 50 yds yet).

Because I am not sure. You want me to guess? OK between 35 and 40 yds.

Were you viewing it from the mail slot sized port or through the camo net?

a mail slot sized port. I could not see through the camo.

If you were above the subject and the deer stand floor (?) is 10 to 12 feet high, where in the deer stand were you viewing it from - standing up, sitting or kneeling?

Thank you.

Sitting on a camp stool/chair, there were 2 of them in the blind.

[Medic212]

Hello, this is David. I'm Michelle's (sugarb's) husband. I understand that you all would like to hear my side of the story. I've got a couple more days off on this vacation so I thought I would go ahead and give it a go. So here goes....

Michelle already gave you a discription of the location, time of day and all that, so I'll just generalize that part.

We were heading down the road, it was around 7 or so, clear night the road seemed pretty well abandoned for the most part, which didn't shock us being in po-dunk arkansas. I was driving we were in a 97 f150 standard cab. As we were driving I was able to see something on the opposite side of the road in the distance, I by the way have very good vision, and I'm very observant when I drive, I constantly scan my mirrors and look out ahead of me for possible hazards, occupational habit I suppose. At first I was unable to identify what it was that i saw. As we moved closer you could tell that it was moving toward us and not just something on the side of the road. after a few seconds we realized that it was a live something and it was running alongside the road and appeared to be moving fairly quickly. As it approached us we could see that it was very tall, taller than the cab of the truck probably around 7 feet or a bit taller. It was on 2 legs arms hanging down to the side swinging slightly. It had long hair but not extremely long. very short to no neck, like a linebacker, imagine having a bigfoot on your football team, my Raiders could use him. It ran along the edge of the road and right about the time it passed the truck it ran down off the road and into the ditchline. We both turned a bit to watch or at least I did I'm pretty sure she did too. I could only see it for about another 2 seconds maybe so I couldn't tell if it stayed in the ditchline or if it ran across the field to our left, and it was gone.

For the next 5 or 10 seconds our drive was silent. Then we both pretty much simaltaneously used a few explitives to ask if the other had seen what happened. We both answered yes. Michelle asked if maybe it was a deer, I explained that I had never seen a deer running on its hind legs. Then she asked if maybe it was a person, I responded that that would be a very big and very hairy and very fast person. I then wanted to turn around and see if we could get a better look at whatever the hell it was. Michelle was against it, but i tried for a minute to convince her that it would be ok. I soon realized that she was pretty freaked out and gave up on it.

I don't know for sure that what we saw was a bigfoot, but to be honest with you I've thought about it alot and am really more skeptical of the "reasonable" explanations that I am of the not so reasonable. I have this belief that while we have the ability to discover and prove a lot of things, that it is much more unreasonable to think that we know everything that exists out there than it is to think openly that there are in fact creatures and beings that we can't explain. I think it is very arrogant of people who think that we are alone and that we know it all.

I hope that this is of some help to you all in determing whether or not our account is credible.

[clayflingythingy]

I have this belief that while we have the ability to discover and prove a lot of things, that it is much more unreasonable to think that we know everything that exists out there than it is to think openly that there are in fact creatures and beings that we can't explain. I think it is very arrogant of people who think that we are alone and that we know it all.



Spoken like a true woo.

[kitakaze]

Hello, this is David. I'm Michelle's (sugarb's) husband. I understand that you all would like to hear my side of the story. I've got a couple more days off on this vacation so I thought I would go ahead and give it a go. So here goes....

(snip)

Hi, David, and thank you for coming here to share your experience with us. It is significant in that this is the first time on the JREF that we have a had a multiple witness claim for Bigfoot. Back in post #1516 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5358078&postcount=1516) of this thread I located the area of your sighting just past the East Arkansas Regional Unit prison and just before coming into Marianna.

To be honest, one of the first things I thought is that this is a footer or a couple of footers creating a story for us, but Michelle's use of the JREF forums contradicts that. I told Michelle that I thought it was very strange that she would come onto the forum and post specifically that she doesn't think Bigfoots often use roads in the Bigfoot roadkill thread, and yet sit on the massive whopper that she and her husband actually saw a Bigfoot using a road. I found one Bigfoot report with the BFRO for Lee County, which is from the 60's...

http://bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=7234

Arkansas has about 70 reports with the BFRO, which is not too shabby. I really don't know what to make of your story yet. I believe that you saw something, but I don't think it actually was Bigfoot. Maybe a person in a ghillie suit, maybe a hoax, I don't know. The reason why I doubt it actually was Bigfoot is because with that behaviour, and how often Bigfoot is reported by roads, we should absolutely have a type specimen by now.

To whom did you talk to about the event after it occured?

Here is a stock '97 Ford F150 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/%2797-%2700_Ford_F-150_Extended_Cab.jpg) with extended cab. About how much higher than the roof of your truck would you say the thing you saw?

Oh, and welcome to the JREF.

[LuvGodzilla]

Because I am not sure. You want me to guess? OK between 35 and 40 yds.

I didn't ask you to guess. I stated that you hadn't given a number to clarify the less than 50 yds.

You mentioned several times less than 50 yds and had someone stand away from you so you could "estimate" and then not give the new estimation yardage simply leaves the distance very unclear.

I believe you mentioned playing football too, so I would have naturally assumed that you could correctly estimate yardage based on knowing/playing the game of football at that age.

I'm also interested in the fact that you were sitting and looking through a mail slot sized port in a canvas covered deer stand at an approximate height of 10 to 12 ft (floor level?) from above the 9x5.5 subject and from a distance of 35 to 40 yards observing it from the waist up in green shrubbery eating berries.

You than claim some serious physical symptoms that you brush off and did not seek medical care for at the time, or did you? Regardless of the witnessed subject, why did you disregard such serious medical symptoms? Did you tell your parents? Did you tell the adult whom took you hunting?

[kitakaze]

Spoken like a true woo.

JMHO, clay, about your opinion, but I don't see how that can help. Let's say David and Michelle did see something, regardless of whether it was a real Bigfoot or a human wearing something. David's thoughts about it are perfectly natural and to be expected when trying to make sense of it. Put yourself in their shoes. Those are the kind of things you'd hear when talking about it with another person. Nothing about it makes him a woo and there can only come further hostility from that. I would like David and Michelle to stick around and talk. Comments like that one above might make Dave think What's with these _____? I'm out of here. Let's make nice and talk Bigfoot.

[WGBH]

I didn't ask you to guess. I stated that you hadn't given a number to clarify the less than 50 yds.

You mentioned several times less than 50 yds and had someone stand away from you so you could "estimate" and then not give the new estimation yardage simply leaves the distance very unclear.

I believe you mentioned playing football too, so I would have naturally assumed that you could correctly estimate yardage based on knowing/playing the game of football at that age.

I'm also interested in the fact that you were sitting and looking through a mail slot sized port in a canvas covered deer stand at an approximate height of 10 to 12 ft (floor level?) from above the 9x5.5 subject and from a distance of 35 to 40 yards observing it from the waist up in green shrubbery eating berries.

You than claim some serious physical symptoms that you brush off and did not seek medical care for at the time, or did you? Regardless of the witnessed subject, why did you disregard such serious medical symptoms? Did you tell your parents? Did you tell the adult whom took you hunting?

A best guess is all you are going to get. Correct, the exact distance is unclear.

I never played football.

OK, you are interested, feel free to ask questions.

I told the adult there about my sighting not the symptoms I felt beforehand. No, I never sought medical care or told my parents or anyone else for that matter.

[kitakaze]

care to comment on you doing most of your research in timberghost country, or so I've heard? A stone's throw from mabrc country?

Sorry, Mike, but once again, a Bigfoot enthusiast that searches for Bigfoot in Connecticut attempting to call out another Bigfoot enthusiast on a skeptics forum based on their area of searching seems rather empty to me. Especially when the method is by associating people who have no connection whatsoever.

I could point out that you are in NESRA, Steve Kulls was in NESRA, Steve Kulls was all mixed up with Biscardi and the Georgia hoax so...

See what I mean?

[kitakaze]

John, you may have missed post #1722. I was asking about bug spray and toxic plants. Also, I showed how to upload pictures easily.

[WGBH]

When you go in the woods, do you use an insect repellent such as OFF! ?

Have you ever heard of the plant called jimson weed?

User CP tab (upper left of the screen) > Pictures & Albums > Add Album > Browse > select the picture > voilà!

Sorry Kit, you are right, I did miss this.

Yes I use OFF when needed in the woods.

No, never heard of jimson weed.

I'm sorry, for privacy reasons I have decided against posting my personal pictures here. If you want to see them join face book and send me a friend request. Then you can look at all of them whenever you want.

[kitakaze]

Sorry Kit, you are right, I did miss this.

Yes I use OFF when needed in the woods.

No, never heard of jimson weed.

I'm sorry, for privacy reasons I have decided against posting my personal pictures here. If you want to see them join face book and send me a friend request. Then you can look at all of them whenever you want.

OFF! and other various insect repellents contain N,N-Diethyl-meta-toluamide, abbreviated as DEET. DEET has been know to cause hallucinations and seizures. Yeah, it's true...

Harmful Health Effects

Neurological problems, including insomnia, mood disturbances, hallucinations, seizures, impaired cognitive function, and death if there's over exposure to the chemical.

http://www.saladsticks.com/2009/07/deet-can-be-harmful.html

Datura stramonium, or jimson weed, is a toxic plant that grows in North Carolina and many other places that also causes hallucinations. Get some on your fingers and then rub your eyes, pick your nose, etc, bingo bango, hello Bigfoot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimson_weed

You don't need to be on your friends list to see you WGBH fan page. That's available to the public. I'm looking at the shot of you when you were 18 in 1983 in the red and white Adidas tee and shorts in front of the cliffs. I won't post the link per your request but I will confirm that you have an average physique at that age. Your physique has nothing to do with anything like psychogenic non-epileptic seizures but I am in no position to say with certainty what you experienced, other than saying that any of the things I listed are far, far more likely than seeing Bigfoot, regardless of how convinced you are.

[Medic212]

Spoken like a true woo.

Hello to you whoever you are.

First off I don't know what a woo is, it's a dumb little word, and I'm guessing condescending. If that is correct I don't see how you could possibly know me well enough after only one post to take that liberty but whatever. Thanks for the kind welcome

[WGBH]

OFF! and other various insect repellents contain N,N-Diethyl-meta-toluamide, abbreviated as DEET. DEET has been know to cause hallucinations and seizures. Yeah, it's true...



http://www.saladsticks.com/2009/07/deet-can-be-harmful.html

Datura stramonium, or jimson weed, is a toxic plant that grows in North Carolina and many other places that also causes hallucinations. Get some on your fingers and than rub your eyes, pick your nose, etc, bingo bango, hello Bigfoot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimson_weed

You don't need to be on your friends list to see you WGBH fan page. That's available to the public. I'm looking at the shot of you when you were 18 in 1983 in the red and white Adidas tee and shorts in front of the cliffs. I won't post the link per your request but I will confirm that you have an average physique at that age. Your physique has nothing to do with anything like psychogenic non-epileptic seizures but I am in no position to say with certainty what you experienced, other than saying that any of the things I listed are far, far more likely than seeing Bigfoot, regardless of how convinced you are.

I will remember that about Deet. Thanks for the warning. For the record, I was not wearing it the day of the sighting.

Forgot about the silly WGBH fan page. Thanks for remembering it. Problem solved, great job!