Bigfoot- Anybody Seen one?

[Daryl17]

Just spotted the thread about the Patterson film, and looking over at it they're seems to be some people claiming to not only believe in bigfoot but claim to have seen one, not im not sure if this is sarcasm, but what the hell....anyone seen a real life sasquatch?

[jimtron]

I've seen an actual photograph of an actual person in an actual Bigfoot costume. Does that count?

[kitakaze]

Whatever happened to 'I'm a skeptic who believes he saw bigfoot'Testudo (http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=273)?I don't know about the Loch Ness Monster or some of the other cryptozoological animals, but Bigfoot is real, real I say! I saw the damn thing with my own eyes!

Bigfoot roams the vast, largely uninhabited areas of the Pacific NW and Western Canada. Due to the huge size of the area in question, the extremely low human population, the dense foliage, and the semi-intelligent, shy desposition of the creature, it goes largely unseen.

Physical evidence is very hard to find because of the pitifully low ratio of people actively looking for evidence and the search area in question. And if they bury the dead you can forget about it, physical evidence will probably never be found. We might be lucky one day and find some hair samples, or maybe some bones due to shear luck in a dinosaur archeological dig, but I am not getting my hopes up.

Having said that, I still believe the vast majority of Bigfoot sightings are hoaxes or misidentifications (and no mine was not a misidentification. It was 20-30 yards away from me. I was sober and lucid, and it wasn't a bear, a tree, a bush, or anything else), especially in other parts of the world. The Bigfoot population is small and isolated.

Fire away folks.

[carcharodon]

Just spotted the thread about the Patterson film, and looking over at it they're seems to be some people claiming to not only believe in bigfoot but claim to have seen one, not im not sure if this is sarcasm, but what the hell....anyone seen a real life sasquatch?

I don't live in a likely area to have actually seen one. I wonder many people here do????

[kitakaze]

For any who weren't already aware Huntster believes he came upon a sasquatch trackway and I while camping with friends on Vancouver Island several years ago found two sets of tracks and had a close range audio encounter with what at the time I attributed to sasquatch(es- at the time I thought there was an adult and juvenile) but now I discount the event as inconclusive and likely mistaken identity given the spurious nature of BF evidence. However, I still fel pretty confident I could rule out hoaxing because of the remoteness of the area. But hey, you never know...;)

[Huntster]

....anyone seen a real life sasquatch?I've seen an actual photograph of an actual person in an actual Bigfoot costume. Does that count?

That was a real tough read there in the OP, so I'll try to give you some help.

No, it doesn't count..........

[Huntster]

kitakaze is correct. I found a trackway of footprints which I'm sure were sasquatch prints in the southern Sierra Nevada mountains in 1972.

[kitakaze]

kitakaze is correct. I found a trackway of footprints which I'm sure were sasquatch prints in the southern Sierra Nevada mountains in 1972.For myself in regards to my own experience, I would have to admit no small sympathy for those who sincerely claim an encounter of some form or another. Likewise, I also must admit having had a deep and abiding interest in the question of sasquatch at the time of the event and even after much reflection on the experience have yet to find a satisfactory explanation for it.

However, this in no way convinces me that such an explanation is not available and in the end feel better off simply disregarding it entirely.

Now, I have never claimed to be much of a skeptic and in my relative youth I'm acutely aware that my critical thinking skills have a long way to come. Indeed, I came to this board with the intention of bettering that (and maybe a little tussling with some poo-pooers) but in remaining open to whereever the debate would lead I'm ultimately compelled in adopting a skeptical point of view (this after being esconced in about as much bigfootery as possible without sacrificing some measure of sanity).

Maybe this is a glaring example of the shortcomings of my critical thinking skills but being familiar with Huntster's experience in that case also I feel hoaxing quite unlikely given the circumstances which therefore I guess brings us back to the thought of misidentification. Embarrassingly, I'd have to ask you Huntster if you might not find some alternate theories for your experience outside of sasquatch. I won't even bother insinuating the possibility of bear tracks.

How about large wayfaring nudist?:D

[carcharodon]

How about large wayfaring nudist?:D

Huh? A nudist carrying a large wafer?:D

[jimtron]

That was a real tough read there in the OP, so I'll try to give you some help.

No, it doesn't count..........

I'm sorry, I meant to say a real life photograph of a real life person in a real life Bigfoot suit.

[Huntster]

...Embarrassingly, I'd have to ask you Huntster if you might not find some alternate theories for your experience outside of sasquatch. I won't even bother insinuating the possibility of bear tracks.

How about large wayfaring nudist?:D

Sure. A heavy person with a foot approximately 15" long and a very long stride could have been walking about barefoot at least 20 miles from the nearest road in the southern Sierra Nevada range, and instead of walking along the trail, he/she crossed it by walking/sliding down a rockslide, through the bushes on a faint game trail, and through mud and water.

It's also possible that a huge bear (with rear footprints larger than I've ever seen in Alaska, including Kodiak Island, and without any sign of clawmarks) was walking bipedally (there was no evidence whatsoever of a front pawprint).

It's also possible that a human walked those 20 miles up that particular, lonely trail, carrying bigfoot "sandals" in order to fool any hikers that might possibly happen by, and that we never saw that person before, during, or after the trackway find.

I suppose it's also possible that the trackway was left by a biological being other than a sasquatch (though I can't imagine what that might be), or an extraterrestrial being.

Or, the prints might have been left by a (no! no! don't write it! it cannont be!) sasquatch.

After considering the possiblilties, I've concluded that it was likely a sasquatch.

[LAL]

I don't live in a likely area to have actually seen one. I wonder many people here do????

I did, but I wasn't lucky enough to see one. I should have gotten out more.

[hodgy]

Sure. A heavy person with a foot approximately 15" long and a very long stride could have been walking about barefoot at least 20 miles from the nearest road in the southern Sierra Nevada range, and instead of walking along the trail, he/she crossed it by walking/sliding down a rockslide, through the bushes on a faint game trail, and through mud and water.

It's also possible that a huge bear (with rear footprints larger than I've ever seen in Alaska, including Kodiak Island, and without any sign of clawmarks) was walking bipedally (there was no evidence whatsoever of a front pawprint).

It's also possible that a human walked those 20 miles up that particular, lonely trail, carrying bigfoot "sandals" in order to fool any hikers that might possibly happen by, and that we never saw that person before, during, or after the trackway find.

I suppose it's also possible that the trackway was left by a biological being other than a sasquatch (though I can't imagine what that might be), or an extraterrestrial being.

Or, the prints might have been left by a (no! no! don't write it! it cannont be!) sasquatch.

After considering the possiblilties, I've concluded that it was likely a sasquatch.


Its also possible that your statement does not report reality. Since we were not there, we cannot validate that, however, absence of corroborative evidence tends to suggest that BF does not exist / is a bloke in a suit.

[Polaris]

I see two every time I put on my socks in the morning.

[Kevin Levites]

Just spotted the thread about the Patterson film, and looking over at it they're seems to be some people claiming to not only believe in bigfoot but claim to have seen one, not im not sure if this is sarcasm, but what the hell....anyone seen a real life sasquatch?

I've brought this up in other forums (Skeptic Magazine), and I'll bring it up here.

Anyone interested in the Jersey Devil, Bigfoot, Skunk Ape, Yeti, and so on should check out the books by Tom Brown Jr. ('The Tracker', 'Tom Brown's Field Guide to Wilderness Survival', 'Grandfather', 'The Quest', and so on).

This guy was, apparantly, trained in the arcane arts of psychological and guerilla warfare by an Apache scout named Stalking Wolf.

Many of the sightings of the Jersey Devil in the sixties can be blamed on him and his friend Rick--some Native Americans have a tradition of counting coup, which sometimes involves the theft of an intimate item and, basically, terrifying the living **** out of your enemy without killing him.

There are many secret societies that have existed in history. The Skull and Crossbones of Yale University has members like George Bush (Jr. and Sr.), the Black Dragon Tong of China, and the various ninja organizations of Fuedal Japan qualify.

I find it interesting that many sightings of strange creatures occur near tribal lands.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were some Native American traditions have survived.

All the best,

---Kevin

[Skeptical Greg]

I've brought this up in other forums (Skeptic Magazine), and I'll bring it up here.

Anyone interested in the Jersey Devil, Bigfoot, Skunk Ape, Yeti, and so on should check out the books by Tom Brown Jr. ('The Tracker', 'Tom Brown's Field Guide to Wilderness Survival', 'Grandfather', 'The Quest', and so on).

This guy was, apparantly, trained in the arcane arts of psychological and guerilla warfare by an Apache scout named Stalking Wolf.

Many of the sightings of the Jersey Devil in the sixties can be blamed on him and his friend Rick--some Native Americans have a tradition of counting coup, which sometimes involves the theft of an intimate item and, basically, terrifying the living **** out of your enemy without killing him.

There are many secret societies that have existed in history. The Skull and Crossbones of Yale University has members like George Bush (Jr. and Sr.), the Black Dragon Tong of China, and the various ninja organizations of Fuedal Japan qualify.

I find it interesting that many sightings of strange creatures occur near tribal lands.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were some Native American traditions have survived.

All the best,

---Kevin

Good observation Kevin ...


I wouldn't be surprised if an important part of those " Native American traditions ... if they exist of course ..;) ... didn't include keeping quiet ( at least beyond the inner circle ) about any such ' coup counting ' that took place ...

[RSLancastr]

Me? No. But a man I work with grew up in the Pacific Northwest, and says that, when he was young, he saw something which he couldn't identify, but which he can't think of anything else it could be but a bigfoot/sasquatch/whatever. He was climbing a tree when he smelled something "like a wet dog on fire." He looked around and there was something tall and furry facing him. He fell out of the tree and ran home. He says he knows it wasn't a bear, even though he couldn't see it clearly through the branches.

Just another anecdote.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
Sure. A heavy person with a foot approximately 15" long and a very long stride could have been walking about barefoot at least 20 miles from the nearest road in the southern Sierra Nevada range, and instead of walking along the trail, he/she crossed it by walking/sliding down a rockslide, through the bushes on a faint game trail, and through mud and water.

It's also possible that a huge bear (with rear footprints larger than I've ever seen in Alaska, including Kodiak Island, and without any sign of clawmarks) was walking bipedally (there was no evidence whatsoever of a front pawprint).

It's also possible that a human walked those 20 miles up that particular, lonely trail, carrying bigfoot "sandals" in order to fool any hikers that might possibly happen by, and that we never saw that person before, during, or after the trackway find.

I suppose it's also possible that the trackway was left by a biological being other than a sasquatch (though I can't imagine what that might be), or an extraterrestrial being.

Or, the prints might have been left by a (no! no! don't write it! it cannont be!) sasquatch.

After considering the possiblilties, I've concluded that it was likely a sasquatch.

Its also possible that your statement does not report reality. Since we were not there, we cannot validate that...


From your perspective, that is true. I was writing from my perspective.

.....however, absence of corroborative evidence tends to suggest that BF does not exist / is a bloke in a suit.

In my case, yes. The absence of corroborative evidence suggests that my claim is unsubstantiated.

However, other sasquatch evidence does have corroborating evidence, and it is also rejected by some on this forum as not even being evidence.

The bottom line is that some folks are satisfied with the evidence available, some want more, and some will never be satisfied without proof.

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Kevin Levites
I've brought this up in other forums (Skeptic Magazine), and I'll bring it up here.

Anyone interested in the Jersey Devil, Bigfoot, Skunk Ape, Yeti, and so on should check out the books by Tom Brown Jr. ('The Tracker', 'Tom Brown's Field Guide to Wilderness Survival', 'Grandfather', 'The Quest', and so on).

This guy was, apparantly, trained in the arcane arts of psychological and guerilla warfare by an Apache scout named Stalking Wolf.

Many of the sightings of the Jersey Devil in the sixties can be blamed on him and his friend Rick--some Native Americans have a tradition of counting coup, which sometimes involves the theft of an intimate item and, basically, terrifying the living **** out of your enemy without killing him.

There are many secret societies that have existed in history. The Skull and Crossbones of Yale University has members like George Bush (Jr. and Sr.), the Black Dragon Tong of China, and the various ninja organizations of Fuedal Japan qualify.

I find it interesting that many sightings of strange creatures occur near tribal lands.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were some Native American traditions have survived.

All the best,

---Kevin
Good observation Kevin ...

I wouldn't be surprised if an important part of those " Native American traditions ... if they exist of course ..;) ... didn't include keeping quiet ( at least beyond the inner circle ) about any such ' coup counting ' that took place ...

Is this a Native American Conspiracy Theory?

Would such an accusation be racist, or would it just be stupid?

[kitakaze]

This guy was, apparantly, trained in the arcane arts of psychological and guerilla warfare by an Apache scout named Stalking Wolf.

Many of the sightings of the Jersey Devil in the sixties can be blamed on him and his friend Rick--This is an anecdote, yes?some Native Americans have a tradition of counting coup, which sometimes involves the theft of an intimate item and, basically, terrifying the living **** out of your enemy without killing him.Are we to infer from this anecdote the existence of a secret First Nation organization of psycho guerillas conspiring to mess with our heads via staged bigfoot encounters and panty thefts?There are many secret societies that have existed in history. The Skull and Crossbones of Yale University has members like George Bush (Jr. and Sr.), the Black Dragon Tong of China, and the various ninja organizations of Fuedal Japan qualify. Aha, but do those guys make you fill your drawers then steal them, too?I find it interesting that many sightings of strange creatures occur near tribal lands.And don't forget during the full moon. Something to do with the arcane arts I think.It wouldn't surprise me if there were some Native American traditions have survived. One would certainly hope so.

Seriously though, general finger pointing aside I don't think anyone doubts there's no shortage of tricksy devils getting there kicks trying to convince people they saw *insert creepy thing here*.

[Daryl17]

Me? No. But a man I work with grew up in the Pacific Northwest, and says that, when he was young, he saw something which he couldn't identify, but which he can't think of anything else it could be but a bigfoot/sasquatch/whatever. He was climbing a tree when he smelled something "like a wet dog on fire." He looked around and there was something tall and furry facing him. He fell out of the tree and ran home. He says he knows it wasn't a bear, even though he couldn't see it clearly through the branches.

Just another anecdote.
Nice story, its interesting to note that alot of people who claim to have seen Bigfoot have said they smelt an awful smell, Gimlin claimed just that, that he smelt what he described as a 'wet dog'.

[Kevin Levites]

This is an anecdote, yes?Are we to infer from this anecdote the existence of a secret First Nation organization of psycho guerillas conspiring to mess with our heads via staged bigfoot encounters and panty thefts?Aha, but do those guys make you fill your drawers then steal them, too?And don't forget during the full moon. Something to do with the arcane arts I think.One would certainly hope so.

Seriously though, general finger pointing aside I don't think anyone doubts there's no shortage of tricksy devils getting there kicks trying to convince people they saw *insert creepy thing here*.


Thank you for replying to my post. Tom Brown Jr., in his own writings, claims to have been the Jersey Devil. He often makes mention of secret societies. I wasn't claiming anything so much as throwing an idea into the pot so that we might talk about it.

All the best,

--Kevin

[Kevin Levites]

Is this a Native American Conspiracy Theory?

Would such an accusation be racist, or would it just be stupid?


I deny the suggestion that I'm a racist. Brown, in his own writings, mentions secret societies and that he was the Jersey Devil on many occasions when he was practicing the things that Stalking Wolf taught him.

Thanks for replying to my post.

All the best,

---Kevin

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
Is this a Native American Conspiracy Theory?

Would such an accusation be racist, or would it just be stupid?
I deny the suggestion that I'm a racist.

No! Don't!

Don't do it!............

Thanks for replying to my post.

You're welcome.

Thanks for the honest and friendly post.

All the best,

And the same to you, my friend.

[kitakaze]

Thank you for replying to my post. Tom Brown Jr., in his own writings, claims to have been the Jersey Devil. He often makes mention of secret societies. I wasn't claiming anything so much as throwing an idea into the pot so that we might talk about it.

All the best,

--KevinYou're welcome. It was a funny idea. Tom Brown Jr. makes me think of Ray Wallace if only for his bigfoot claims. I'm sure just like some of the organized crop circle makers of the past I can easily imagine some crazies getting together to make bigfoot hoaxes such as (any takers?).

All the best to you, too. Happy New Year.:)

[Tirdun]

I don't post on bigfoot threads (I have nothing of substance to add and they follow a very predictable pattern) but I have a hard time imagining that a group of hoaxers would have produced some of the alleged sightings by finding and hoaxing unsuspecting people.

Where I live, if you were to jump out of the woods in a furry costume at a group of hoax-ees there is a very good chance you'd end up the new owner of a lot of buckshot.

[LAL]

I don't post on bigfoot threads (I have nothing of substance to add and they follow a very predictable pattern) but I have a hard time imagining that a group of hoaxers would have produced some of the alleged sightings by finding and hoaxing unsuspecting people.

Where I live, if you were to jump out of the woods in a furry costume at a group of hoax-ees there is a very good chance you'd end up the new owner of a lot of buckshot.

That's true in quite a few areas. There was a story about someone in a suit actually being killed. Anyone know more about that?

Some of the evidence, especially the miles-long trackways, just aren't hoaxable by any conceivable means. I think sceptics put way too much weight on the few hoaxes there have been. But then they have little to support their side. I suppose they have to use what they have.

[Skeptical Greg]

There was a story about someone in a suit actually being killed. Anyone know more about that?

Right here at JREF ..

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1493304#post1493304

Of course " Bigfoot Hoaxer Shot " stories, are just supposed to add some credibility to sighting reports, because no one would be dumb enough to dress up like a bigfoot...

Some of the evidence, especially the miles-long trackways, just aren't hoaxable by any conceivable means.
Conceivable by whom ?

Of course, why would it have to be a hoax ?

Oh.. You mean those Bigfootologists couldn't possibly be mistaken about the source of tracks in the snow ?

One thing we do know; if there are no Bigfoots, the tracks were not made by a Bigfoot...

[desertyeti]

In Ivan Sanderson's and Chris Murphy's books, there are photos of a bounding quadruped in the snow (easily recognizable by the symetrical and identical form of each successive imprint, demonstrating that a pair of mirror-image feet were not involved, as well as being placed one in front of the other) showing body as well as foot impressions that are confidently labeled as being from large, hirsuite, apemen. Doesn't exactly instill confidence in the tracking skills of other BF-ers.

[luchog]

Nice story, its interesting to note that alot of people who claim to have seen Bigfoot have said they smelt an awful smell, Gimlin claimed just that, that he smelt what he described as a 'wet dog'.
I wonder if any of these people have ever smelled a bear in rut. Pretty unpleasant.

I've live in the PNW all my life, and had an enounter in my late teens, more or less auditory, along with several others. A couple of them were of the opinion that it could have been a sasquatch; but the consensus among the rest of us was that it had been a bear, considering the prevelance of bears in the area, and the resemblance to other bear noises. Not to mention being at the height of the rutting season.

[Spektator]

I was driving down a country road late on a foggy night when I saw something about seven feet high shambling along the opposite edge of the road, coming in my direction. It was a kind of dark brown, and it had a weird, tiny head for its height.

Then something clicked and I saw that it was a guy with a kid riding on his shoulders. They had a long dark raincoat draped over the kid's shoulders and hanging down open, framing the guy's face. But for a second there--well, you know.

[William Parcher]

Conversation carried over from this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=143969&page=2).

JREF member "WGBH" (John Cartwright) had a Bigfoot encounter in 1982 which has traumatized him ever since.

His original report to the BFRO submitted in 1998 is here (http://www.bfro.net/GDB/CNTS/NC/PA/nc_pa001.htm).

A more recent expanded report of the encounter is here (http://blogsquatcher.blogspot.com/search?q=mulberry).

[William Parcher]

John, the person who interviewed you and wrote the blog article "'Round the mulberry bush" (recent expanded encounter report) is DB Donlon (Blogsquatcher), yes?

[WGBH]

Before I get put up on the gallows, am I the only one here who will admit to a sighting?

I will answer serious questions. I will not answer insulting questions or respond to insults in general. If you are really interested about my encounter that is fine, but I am not here for your entertainment. I am here hoping for answers and ideas, hopefully you are too.

[WGBH]

John, the person who interviewed you and wrote the blog article "'Round the mulberry bush" (recent expanded encounter report) is DB Donlon (Blogsquatcher), yes?

Yes, DB Donlon is a good friend and fellow member of my research group Sasquatch Watch of Virginia.

[William Parcher]

How would you describe Donlon's own position on the existence of Bigfoot?

For example, would you say he is doubtful, fence-sitting, or thoroughly convinced? Has he had any sightings of his own that he feels confirms the existence of Bigfoot?

[WGBH]

How would you describe Donlon's own position on the existence of Bigfoot?

For example, would you say he is doubtful, fence-sitting, or thoroughly convinced? Has he had any sightings of his own that he feels confirms the existence of Bigfoot?

DB has not had a sighting. He is a fence sitter. I am not comfortable answering questions about other people.

[SweatyYeti]

Cancel that question....to Hunster. :)

[5sisters]

Sure I have. Everyone who has a size 12 shoe or lareger has a big foot

[William Parcher]

DB has not had a sighting. He is a fence sitter. I am not comfortable answering questions about other people.

That's ok. The issue is that the article is as much Donlon telling your story in his words, as it is you telling it in your words. In that respect, it's unlike any typical encounter report. Donlon adds his own spices to your soup. The concern is that he had an interest in maximizing the "believability" of your story. He wrote it and put it on his own blog.

[SweatyYeti]

Congrats on your sighting, John! :) You're a very lucky guy, to have seen one!

I found this detail very interesting...


It had shoulders that were 5 or 6’ wide. It was huge.
Very muscular. It looked like a body builder with fur.


Very much like Patty's body width.

[William Parcher]

Hey Sweaty, the shoulder width is 66% of the height (6' shoulders and 9' height). A 6' human with those proportions would have 4' shoulders. Pull out your crayons and draw that.

[WGBH]

Congrats on your sighting, John! :) You're a very lucky guy, to have seen one!

I found this detail very interesting...

Very much like Patty's body width.

Actually, the only similarities between Patty and the animal I saw was the shape of the head. The animal I saw appeared much larger and muscular. It also had wide shoulders and a thinner waist. Like a Swimmers build. Patty looked more barrel chested and thick in the torso.

[Vortigern99]

Before I get put up on the gallows, am I the only one here who will admit to a sighting?

I will answer serious questions. I will not answer insulting questions or respond to insults in general. If you are really interested about my encounter that is fine, but I am not here for your entertainment. I am here hoping for answers and ideas, hopefully you are too.

First, WGBH, let me say that I for one have no intention of stringing you "up on the gallows". In my own mind and heart, I allow the possibility of the existence of BF, an outside chance that somehow, against all expectations and evidence to the contrary, a giant bipedal primate is roaming the woods of NA undetected by modern scientific equipment. It's unlikely, IMO, given what I've discovered in this forum and elsewhere in the last few months, but I have to confess it is at least possible. So, I have no wish to ridicule you, insult or deride you in any way.

That said, I do wonder if you've considered all the alternatives to your belief/opinion/conclusion that you witnessed such a creature. In the other thread, I asked you if it was possible that you:

1. Misidentified a bear or other animal;

2. Were the victim of a man-in-a-suit hoax at your expense;

3. Or if you might have hallucinated or waking-dreamed the animal (which again is a known human phenomenon and does not open you up to ridicule or accusations of insanity).

You've already said that 1.) is out of the question, and you seem unwilling to entertain 3.), so allow me to ask you once more: Could you have been the victim of a hoax?

[SweatyYeti]

Hey Sweaty, the shoulder width is 66% of the height (6' shoulders and 9' height). A 6' human with those proportions would have 4' shoulders. Pull out your crayons and draw that.


John estimated 5 to 6 feet...which...even at 5 feet, could have been a little over-estimated.

The basic idea is.....extremely wide skeletal frame.




WGBH wrote:

Actually, the only similarities between Patty and the animal I saw was the shape of the head. The animal I saw appeared much larger and muscular. It also had wide shoulders and a thinner waist. Like a Swimmers build. Patty looked more barrel chested and thick in the torso.


Interesting info....as any details of such a creature would be.


One thing about the 'narrower waist'.....that body dimension is determined somewhat by an individual's muscle, and fat, in addition to the bone structure......and can vary pretty widely, from one individual to another.


As for the width at the hips...Patty appears to be a female, and should probably appear a little wider there, than a male would.

In this view from behind, her butt/hips are noticeably, and distinctly, wider than her legs are...


http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w28/SweatyYeti/Patty%20and%20Bob/PattyWideBodyAG1.gif


A very unstable animated-gif....someday I'll fix it up...


http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w28/SweatyYeti/Patty%20and%20Bob/PattyWalkingAway1.gif


Just for contrast...;)...Bob's 'straight as an arrow'...along his side...

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w28/SweatyYeti/Patty%20and%20Bob/BobFrontView111.jpg




Did you notice if the creature's hips were the same width as it's waist, John?

[William Parcher]

John estimated 5 to 6 feet...which...even at 5 feet, could have been a little over-estimated.

Why do you wish to suggest that he was wrong about his estimate? Does it improve the credibility? Could he have underestimated and the shoulders were actually wider than 6'?


Did you notice if the creature's hips were the same width as it's waist, John?


Why are you asking this when John reported that...


I could only see it from the waist up, because there was brush around.

[SweatyYeti]

Why do you wish to suggest that he was wrong about his estimate? Does it improve the credibility?


'Estimate' means an approximation....not an exact figure.
Hence...John's estimate can be considered 'right', if the subject's actual width was approximately 5
feet.....including a little less than 5'.

[kitakaze]

Congrats on your sighting, John! :) You're a very lucky guy, to have seen one!

John at the SFB...

I do have a personal stake in this research. I do care. My life was going along fine also. If you discount the nightmares, alcoholism, relationship problems and living a lie about what I witnessed.

My encounter as a young person clearly has taken its toll on my psyche. For anyone who is not aware, I have not had a good 8 hours sleep in over 27 years. I am also still working on getting over my fear of just BEING in the woods. If anyone thinks that my claims are bullsh#t they only need to spend a night in the same cabin and listen to my screams and talking in my sleep. They can also ask Billy and Tom about the fear they saw on my face when they were patiently attempting to re-introduce me into the woods.

I don't think John feels so lucky.

[WGBH]

First, WGBH, let me say that I for one have no intention of stringing you "up on the gallows". In my own mind and heart, I allow the possibility of the existence of BF, an outside chance that somehow, against all expectations and evidence to the contrary, a giant bipedal primate is roaming the woods of NA undetected by modern scientific equipment. It's unlikely, IMO, given what I've discovered in this forum and elsewhere in the last few months, but I have to confess it is at least possible. So, I have no wish to ridicule you, insult or deride you in any way.

That said, I do wonder if you've considered all the alternatives to your belief/opinion/conclusion that you witnessed such a creature. In the other thread, I asked you if it was possible that you:

1. Misidentified a bear or other animal;

2. Were the victim of a man-in-a-suit hoax at your expense;

3. Or if you might have hallucinated or waking-dreamed the animal (which again is a known human phenomenon and does not open you up to ridicule or accusations of insanity).

You've already said that 1.) is out of the question, and you seem unwilling to entertain 3.), so allow me to ask you once more: Could you have been the victim of a hoax?

1.No it was not a bear. I actually saw a black bear that same morning. There is no mistaking a bear for what I saw. The area has tons of bears running around, but they are not standing 9 ft tall and walking bipedal.

2. No I was not the victim of a man in a suit. To discuss that any more is even more far fetched then believing it was a Bigfoot. I was on PRIVATE PROPERTY, miles deep in the woods on the edge of the dismal swamp. Not to mention the fact that I doubt there is a human that large.

3. If it was a hallucination, why would I hallucinate about Bigfoot? I hardly knew what Bigfoot was at that time, and really had no interest in it.

[kitakaze]

'Estimate' means an approximation....not an exact figure.
Hence...John's estimate can be considered 'right', if the subject's actual width was approximately 5
feet.....including a little less than 5'.

Sweaty, John says the Bigfoot he saw was 5-6 feet wide. Why can't his Bigfoot be 5-6 feet wide?

[WGBH]

I don't think John feels so lucky.

Everyone,

No, I do not feel lucky about what happened to me. I was thrust into this against my will. I tried for 25 years to not talk about it. If I could make it go away, I would do so without a second thought. You think I like being attacked and ridiculed? You think I like being called a liar or a lunatic? I am in this only for answers.

[kitakaze]

Actually, the only similarities between Patty and the animal I saw was the shape of the head. The animal I saw appeared much larger and muscular. It also had wide shoulders and a thinner waist. Like a Swimmers build. Patty looked more barrel chested and thick in the torso.

John, disregarding the hair, would you say the physique on your sasquatch resembled Sasquatch (http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=115)?

[kitakaze]

Everyone,

No, I do not feel lucky about what happened to me. I was thrust into this against my will. I tried for 25 years to not talk about it. If I could make it go away, I would do so without a second thought. You think I like being attacked and ridiculed? You think I like being called a liar or a lunatic? I am in this only for answers.

I don't know if you'll be able to find any now or anywhere but it's worth a shot.

1) How old were you at the time? ETA: 17 years old. Got it.

2) How would you describe you life the in months before and the months after the encounter?

[William Parcher]

2. No I was not the victim of a man in a suit. To discuss that any more is even more far fetched then believing it was a Bigfoot. I was on PRIVATE PROPERTY, miles deep in the woods on the edge of the dismal swamp. Not to mention the fact that I doubt there is a human that large.

An enormous hoaxer intending to fool a deer hunter with a rifle.


3. If it was a hallucination, why would I hallucinate about Bigfoot? I hardly knew what Bigfoot was at that time, and really had no interest in it.

You were 17 years old in 1982 and never knew that BF is supposed to be a big wild hairy biped? Never saw a picture? When you described what you saw to your friends... you never used the term "Bigfoot"? If one of them had asked, "Are you saying you saw a Bigfoot?" - would your response have been, "What is a Bigfoot?"

[kitakaze]

Could you have been the victim of a hoax?

John has been the victim of a hoax outside of his encounter. I'll let John specify himself.

[WGBH]

'Estimate' means an approximation....not an exact figure.
Hence...John's estimate can be considered 'right', if the subject's actual width was approximately 5
feet.....including a little less than 5'.

Yes when I say that the shoulders were 5 or 6 ft wide. It is a estimate.

I watched this animal stand there for 5 mins. It did not just run by and I got a quick glance. The parts of the animal I saw the best were the back, arms, hands and SHOULDERS. I am very comfortable with the estimate I gave.

[WGBH]

John has been the victim of a hoax outside of his encounter. I'll let John specify himself.

I was the victim of a ATTEMPTED hoax. It was a laughable attempt at that. Sorry, I am not fooled that easily. I have been out in the field over 30 times now. I have only had possible Bigfoot activity on ONE occasion. ONCE.

Contrary to popular opinion and the claims of some researchers. We do not get much action on most excursions. I DO NOT count, possible screams, whoops and wood knocks as activity. I have lots of those sounds recorded but I simply CANNOT seriously submit something like that as evidence.

[WGBH]

An enormous hoaxer intending to fool a deer hunter with a rifle.

You were 17 years old in 1982 and never knew that BF is supposed to be a big wild hairy biped? Never saw a picture? When you described what you saw to your friends... you never used the term "Bigfoot"? If one of them had asked, "Are you saying you saw a Bigfoot?" - would your response have been, "What is a Bigfoot?"

Of course I knew what Bigfoot was. He was a giant monster who fought Lee Majors on TV. Everyone knows what Bigfoot is. I was a 17 year old boy, busy chasing girls around and playing sports. Bigfoot was not something that interested me in the slightest.

[William Parcher]

Everyone,

I am in this only for answers.


What are the questions you have for which you seek answers?

[WGBH]

I don't know if you'll be able to find any now or anywhere but it's worth a shot.

1) How old were you at the time? ETA: 17 years old. Got it.

2) How would you describe you life the in months before and the months after the encounter?

1. I was a month away from turning 18. My Birthday is Oct 4. The sighting was labor day weekend in the end of August/ beginning of Sept.

2. I was preparing to start my senior year in High School. School Started on the Tuesday. My sighting was on Saturday Morning.

[kitakaze]

I was the victim of a ATTEMPTED hoax. It was a laughable attempt at that. Sorry, I am not fooled that easily. I have been out in the field over 30 times now. I have only had possible Bigfoot activity on ONE occasion. ONCE.

Contrary to popular opinion and the claims of some researchers. We do not get much action on most excursions. I DO NOT count, possible screams, whoops and wood knocks as activity. I have lots of those sounds recorded but I simply CANNOT seriously submit something like that as evidence.

Thanks for the clarification. I do not know what you saw but I think you can understand better than anyone that the idea of a species of mammal up to 9ft, 5ft wide living in the swamps of North Carolina is pretty extreme.

Were you in a heightened state of fear before you had your encounter? Your encounter says you were by yourself at the time.

[WGBH]

What are the questions you have for which you seek answers?

To know more verifiable information about the animal I witnessed. And to be honest, a little vindication would be nice also.

[William Parcher]

To know more verifiable information about the animal I witnessed. And to be honest, a little vindication would be nice also.


So one of your questions is not, "Did I see a Bigfoot?"

[WGBH]

Thanks for the clarification. I do not know what you saw but I think you can understand better than anyone that the idea of a species of mammal up to 9ft, 5ft wide living in the swamps of North Carolina is pretty extreme.

Were you in a heightened state of fear before you had your encounter? Your encounter says you were by yourself at the time.

Of course I understand that my claims are difficult to believe, hell they are difficult for me to talk about.

Yes I was alone, unfortunately. I was not frightened until I saw it reach out and grab a branch with a HAND. I could clearly see fingers. That is when the fear hit me and boy it really hit me hard. I was thinking " Holy crap that is Bigfoot".

[WGBH]

So one of your questions is not, "Did I see a Bigfoot?"

Absolutely not.

[kitakaze]

Of course I understand that my claims are difficult to believe, hell they are difficult for me to talk about.

Yes I was alone, unfortunately. I was not frightened until I saw it reach out and grab a branch with a HAND. I could clearly see fingers. That is when the fear hit me and boy it really hit me hard. I was thinking " Holy crap that is Bigfoot".

OK, the reason I asked if you were in a heightened state of fear was because you were hunting for the first time, your report says you felt scared and out of place being in the woods, and when you first heard the Bigfoot, you thought it was your friend and his dad coming to get you out of their.

The encounter was in 1982, the report submitted to the BFRO in 1998. What lead to you submitting the encounter to the BFRO?

[WGBH]

OK, the reason I asked if you were in a heightened state of fear was because you were hunting for the first time, your report says you felt scared and out of place being in the woods, and when you first heard the Bigfoot, you thought it was your friend and his dad coming to get you out of their.

The encounter was in 1982, the report submitted to the BFRO in 1998. What lead to you submitting the encounter to the BFRO?


Yes I was hoping it was my friend and his father because I was ready to leave. I had already been sitting there 4 hours. I was not terrified until I realized what it was I was witnessing.

Before the internet age, I had no idea who to report a Bigfoot encounter to. I googled Bigfoot one day in 1998 and I saw the B.F.R.O. web site and filled out the sighting report form. A few weeks later I was contacted by a researcher and interviewed. After that I never talked about it again until 3 years ago.

[WGBH]

John, disregarding the hair, would you say the physique on your sasquatch resembled Sasquatch (http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=115)?

Kitakaze,

If you mean the Marvel Comic book character, No. What I saw looked like a very large primate of some type. Some people try to say they look very human like. IMO what I witnessed looked like a large ape walking bipedal. It did not look or behave to me as a human being.

[William Parcher]

Yes I was hoping it was my friend and his father because I was ready to leave. I had already been sitting there 4 hours. I was not terrified until I realized what it was I was witnessing.

Donlon seems to want to suggest that you may have wanted to get out of there because your guts had just been zapped by Bigfoot infrasound. This sent you into a fetal position. "Being there 4 hours and ready to leave" sounds like a big understatement after experiencing what you described. That was before you heard the footsteps.

Add that there was a nauseating stench. Yet it was only the time spent there that had you wanting out?

[atpeace]

in 1998 and I saw the B.F.R.O. web site and filled out the sighting report form. A few weeks later I was contacted by a researcher and interviewed. After that I never talked about it again until 3 years ago.

(Boldface mine)

Would you explain what that (researcher interview) was like please? Questions asked? Thoroughness? Interviewer's knowledge of the area, wilderness, wildlife, etc. Stuff like that.

Also, did you not feel comfortable connecting somehow (over time) with this researcher, being the first person you could share this nightmare with who might understand or maybe offer you some vindication?

I am sincere and not in attack mode either

thank you,
ap

[kitakaze]

Kitakaze,

If you mean the Marvel Comic book character, No. What I saw looked like a very large primate of some type. Some people try to say they look very human like. IMO what I witnessed looked like a large ape walking bipedal. It did not look or behave to me as a human being.

I didn't mean the superficial appearance, I meant the physique. Your Bigfoot was 9 ft tall and at least 5ft wide with a huge chest and shoulders and a narrow waist like a swimmer's body.

Somebody can beat me to this but we really need a grapic up with a 5'8" human next to a 9 ft tall 5-6 ft wide humanoid, preferably with a third image of the human positioned horizontally lengthwise across the width of the humanoid.

ETA: This is the graphic Eugenie Scott used in her lecture:

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/bigfoot-size.jpg

Too tall and not wide enough.

[WGBH]

Donlon seems to want to suggest that you may have wanted to get out of there because your guts had just been zapped by Bigfoot infrasound. This sent you into a fetal position. "Being there 4 hours and ready to leave" sounds like a big understatement after experiencing what you described. That was before you heard the footsteps.

Add that there was a nauseating stench. Yet it was only the time spent there that had you wanting out?

Nope, you are correct. I was not feeling well after the smell and possible infrasound attack. That added to my desire to want to leave of course.

I have no idea what happened to me during that "infrasound" episode prior to my sighting. I can only describe what it felt like. Some people have a theory of pheromones too. Your guess is as good as mine.

I also had no idea that the "infrasound" had any connection to my actual Bigfoot sighting. In fact, I never referred to it much when discussing my encounter with the BFRO researcher. I just mentioned that I felt ill from the smell. I only made the connection after learning about the theory.

[WGBH]

I didn't mean the superficial appearance, I meant the physique. Your Bigfoot was 9 ft tall and at least 5ft wide with a huge chest and shoulders and a narrow waist like a swimmer's body.

Somebody can beat me to this but we really need a grapic up with a 5'8" human next to a 9 ft tall 5-6 ft wide humanoid, preferably with a third image of the human positioned horizontally lengthwise across the width of the humanoid.

Never caught the connection before, but OK. I thought you meant superficial, sorry.

[William Parcher]

I have this, but the shoulders on the creatures here are far too narrow (relative to their height) to fit John's description.


http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/af75629b.jpg

[WGBH]

(Boldface mine)

Would you explain what that (researcher interview) was like please? Questions asked? Thoroughness? Interviewer's knowledge of the area, wilderness, wildlife, etc. Stuff like that.

Also, did you not feel comfortable connecting somehow (over time) with this researcher, being the first person you could share this nightmare with who might understand or maybe offer you some vindication?

I am sincere and not in attack mode either

thank you,
ap

The researcher that contacted me was a Female and she was from Tennessee. So, I would assume her knowledge of North Carolina to be limited. The questions she asked me were very basic. The entire interview did not last more then a half hour. I never spoke to her again after the interview and we did no bonding. I did not share with her anything about my nightmares. We mostly talked about my description of the animal. Also take note that no researchers notes about the interview were ever added to my sighting report as has been done with other reports. What you read on that BFRO report is what I wrote myself.

[William Parcher]

Here is a template for a 9' standing biped that has 6' shoulders (or any 66% ratio). One could also be made for a 56% ratio (9' x 5'). Draw the standing BF inside the box with head touching the top and shoulders touching the sides.


http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/3f1747f9.jpg

[WGBH]

I have this, but the shoulders on the creatures here are far too narrow (relative to their height) to fit John's description.


http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/af75629b.jpg

That is a fair comparison. Perhaps a bit taller and wider in the shoulders. The arm length looks good.

[atpeace]

The researcher that contacted me was a Female and she was from Tennessee. So, I would assume her knowledge of North Carolina to be limited. The questions she asked me were very basic. The entire interview did not last more then a half hour. I never spoke to her again after the interview and we did no bonding. I did not share with her anything about my nightmares. We mostly talked about my description of the animal. Also take note that no researchers notes about the interview were ever added to my sighting report as has been done with other reports. What you read on that BFRO report is what I wrote myself.

Thank you for answering. I was just curious about the interview process.
I probably chose the wrong word "bonding". I meant nothing weird, just wondered how you felt about finding someone to talk to about your experience.
ap

[kitakaze]

Great Dismal Swamp factoids:

The Great Dismal Swamp is a marshy area on the Coastal Plain of southeastern Virginia and northeastern North Carolina between Norfolk, Virginia, and Elizabeth City, North Carolina in the United States. It is located in parts of southern Chesapeake and Suffolk in Virginia, as well as northern Gates, Pasquotank, and Camden Counties in North Carolina. It is a southern swamp, one of many along the Atlantic Ocean's coast which includes the Everglades and the Big Cypress Swamp in Florida, the Okefenokee Swamp in Georgia, the Congaree Swamp and Four Holes swamps of South Carolina, and some of the Carolina bays in the Carolinas. Along the eastern edge runs the Dismal Swamp Canal, completed in 1805.

Essential to the swamp ecosystem are its water resources, native vegetative communities, and varied wildlife species. The Great Dismal Swamp's ecological significance and its wealth of history and lore make it a unique wilderness. It is one of the last large and wild areas remaining in the Eastern United States.

After centuries of logging and other human activities which were devastating the swamp's ecosystems, the Great Dismal Swamp National Wildlife Refuge was created in 1973 when the Union Camp Corporation of Franklin, Virginia donated 49,100 acres (200 km²) of land; the refuge was officially established through The Dismal Swamp Act of 1974.

The refuge consists of over 111,000 acres (500 km²) of forested wetlands. Lake Drummond, a 3,100 acre (13 km²) natural lake, is located in the heart of the swamp. Outside the boundaries of the National Refuge, the state of North Carolina has preserved and protected additional portions of the swamp, as the Great Dismal Swamp State Natural Area.


Scientists believe the Great Dismal Swamp was created when the Continental shelf made its last big shift. The whole swamp has peat underneath.

The origin of Lake Drummond, one of only two natural lakes in Virginia, is disputed. Scientists believe[citation needed] the lake could have been created by the impact of a meteoroid because it is oval shaped, looking like the impact of a meteoroid. They think it was made by a big meteoroid like the ones that are thought to have made the Carolina Bays. Other people[citation needed] believe it was made by a large underground peat burn about 3,500 to 6,000 years ago. Indian legend talks about "the fire bird" creating Lake Drummond.

There is archaeological evidence which indicates human occupation began nearly 13,000 years ago.


While all efforts to drain the swamp ultimately failed, logging of the swamp proved to be a successful commercial activity. Regular logging operations continued as late as 1976. Many areas have been burned by periodic wildfires. The Great Dismal Swamp has been drastically altered by humanity over the past two centuries. Agricultural, commercial, and residential development destroyed much of the swamp, so that the remaining portion within and around the refuge represents less than half of the original size.

Before the refuge was established, over 140 miles (230 km) of roads were constructed to provide access to the timber. These roads severely disrupted the swamp's natural hydrology, as the ditches which were dug to provide soil for the road beds drained water from the swamp. The roads also blocked the flow of water across the swamp's surface, flooding some areas of the swamp with stagnant water. The logging operations removed natural stands of bald cypress and Atlantic white cypress that were replaced by other forest types, particularly red maple. A drier swamp and the suppression of wildfires, which once cleared the land for seed germination, created ecological conditions that were less favorable to the survival of cypress stands. As a result, plant and animal variety decreased.

In the late 1990s, Prince Corporation heir Erik Prince spent part of his inherited wealth to purchase about 6,000 acres (24 km2) of the GDS to create a "state-of-the-art private training ground for shooters and security operators".[2] His private military contracting company—Blackwater Worldwide—is named for the peat-colored water of the swamp. Also nearby are SEAL and Delta Force bases and the Blackwater facilities are rented out to various government agencies for SWAT team training.

The Great Dismal Swamp National Wildlife Refuge is located not only between two states, but also between two eco-regions, allowing for a wide range of plant and animal species. Baldcypress, tupelo, maple, Atlantic white cypress, and pine are the predominant tree species found on the refuge and support the wildlife within. Many mammal species, including black bear, bobcat, otter, and weasel, along with over 70 species of reptiles and amphibians call the swamp home. More than 200 bird species can be seen at the swamp throughout the year, while 96 of those are known to nest on the refuge.

Lake Drummond is the middle of activity in the swamp today with many fishermen, sightseers, and boaters. Camping is not allowed on the refuge but is allowed on the Lake Drummond Reservation (Corps of Engineers' site) which is located at the Feeder Ditch spillway. Access to this site is by boat only.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Dismal_Swamp

Images:

http://k43.pbase.com/g6/94/339594/2/84401122.LQSJZ3oY.jpg

http://www.dcr.virginia.gov/natural_heritage/images/PIIIc_photo_500.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/great_dismal_swamp/Boardwalk10.JPG

http://www.chesapeakehomesguide.com/img/old-stone-house.jpg

http://photomural.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/swamp.jpg

http://www.virginia.org/uploaded_images/15029.jpg

"Creepy" episode featuring ghosts of Great Dismal Swamp (starts 4:10)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vCF389CTOU

[William Parcher]

This is for the 66% ratio. I scaled this guy for height. Look how much bigger his shoulders need to be to fit the box.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/581a8e5e.jpg

[William Parcher]

Here is the 56% ratio, and the template for it.


http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/0dc71bac.jpg http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/2aaaf92d.jpg

[WGBH]

Wow, good job William and great info on the swamp KK. Thanks so much.

[Blackdog]

The researcher that contacted me was a Female and she was from Tennessee.
I think I know who your interviewer was and if it is who I think it is you're fortunate you didn't bond with her, you could have gone down a totally different path.

[kitakaze]

More Great Dismal Swamp:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaKwQwy3zpg&feature=related

If he only knew...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mRnXExnS7A

(Pardon my levity.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hoc16EqO_Pw&feature=fvsr

Dismal Swamp bear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG0joSakdE4&feature=related

Bigfoot in Virginia swamp (humour):

Slo4alGLbWs

Excerpt from "Creepy" Great Dismal Swamp Bigfoot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj5R6MHCBB0

[WGBH]

I think I know who your interviewer was and if it is who I think it is you're fortunate you didn't bond with her, you could have gone down a totally different path.

Yes you do know who she is and you are right on the nose.

[William Parcher]

The cartoon Sasquatch is very close to a 66% ratio. If the shoulders were 6' on your BF, then this is your creature (proportionally).


http://s179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/th_82d44a4d.jpg

[cos]

Here's a rough and ready diagram showing that Sasquatch's physique meets the given parameters very well.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_217054a23021ae5fa0.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=16558)

I'm having a hard time picturing a creature that looks significantly different from that, yet still matches all of the stated characteristics (9' by 6', bipedal, ape-like, huge chest, narrow waist, etc.)

[kitakaze]

Here's a rough and ready diagram showing that Sasquatch's physique meets the given parameters very well.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_217054a23021ae5fa0.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=16558)

I'm having a hard time picturing a creature that looks significantly different from that, yet still matches all of the stated characteristics (9' by 6', bipedal, ape-like, huge chest, narrow waist, etc.)

There you go. Great diagram, cos. That's exactly what I was talking about. I too can't really imagine anything very different from what John has described. As soon as I read the description I immediately thought of Marvel's Sasquatch.

[xblade]

Then I heard it before I saw it, snapping twigs as it walked, at first I thought it was my friend and his dad, come to rescue me from this ordeal. I only saw it from the waist up, from a distance of about 50 yards. And if It knew I was there, It didn't care. It stood in one spot for a good 5 minutes eating leaves, so I got a good look at it.

You got a good look at a creature you only saw from the waist up that was 50 yards away, in a forest, surrounded by trees and brush? You folks have a have a heck of a lot better eyesight(not to mention smell) than I do. 50 yards is half a football field.

And why have you been traumatized for 25 years, and driven to alcoholism over such an uneventful sighting? I mean, I could understand it if the creature attacked you and tried to rip you to shreds, but all that happened was you saw it eating leaves. I'd love to get that chance, especially if I was hunting. I'd put an end to this debate once and for all.

As an aside, when I was 12, a friend and me saw a flash of light in the woods near my house one evening that we couldn't explain. Scared us pretty good at the time, but we weren't scarred for life over it. Several years later, saw the light again, but this time, knowing a little more about the area, I realized it was coming from car lights on a road that was on the other side of the woods that I didn't know about when I was younger.

As for the Great Dismal Swamp area, there was a forest fire there a few years ago that they struggled to put out because it had gotten into the peat. Once that happens, those fires can burn for a long time. There were firefighters all throughout that area, and forestry planes were constantly flying over and dropping water. None of them saw a bigfoot.

[WGBH]

So, you guys think I saw a member of Alpha Flight that was vacationing in the Dismal Swamp? :D

Seriously, I am not following where this line of questioning is headed. I said 5 or 6 ft wide. So maybe it was 5 1/2? Guys the point I was trying to make is that this animal was MASSIVE.

If you are just using the comic character as a size reference then yes it was that big.

[kitakaze]

The cartoon Sasquatch is very close to a 66% ratio. If the shoulders were 6' on your BF, then this is your creature (proportionally).


http://s179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/th_82d44a4d.jpg

Sidenote:

Marvel's Sasquatch debuted in 1979 and that is the classic image of him.

[kitakaze]

So, you guys think I saw a member of Alpha Flight that was vacationing in the Dismal Swamp? :D

Seriously, I am not following where this line of questioning is headed. I said 5 or 6 ft wide. So maybe it was 5 1/2? Guys the point I was trying to make is that this animal was MASSIVE.

If you are just using the comic character as a size reference then yes it was that big.

That's what I'm talking about.

John, for people who might not be inclined can you give a detailed description that elaborates on this:

- massive
- huge chest, shoulders, muscles
- narrow waist
- 9ft tall x 5 1/2 - 6 feet wide
- dark colour

[William Parcher]

It must be extremely challenging for that creature to move through the forest. It cannot pass through tree branches like magic. The neck is inflexible so it must bend at the waist to avoid busting its head on any branch lower than 9'. I can't foresee any rapid movements (run) inside a forest as an option for this guy.

[WGBH]

You got a good look at a creature you only saw from the waist up that was 50 yards away, in a forest, surrounded by trees and brush? You folks have a have a heck of a lot better eyesight(not to mention smell) than I do. 50 yards is half a football field.

First of all, that statement is from the BFRO report. I mentioned earlier that the other article was more detailed. I said 50 yards initially but it may have been closer if you take into account I was 10 feet high up in a tree. This was covered in detail by the article. I saw the creature very well and also smelled the odor.

And why have you been traumatized for 25 years, and driven to alcoholism over such an uneventful sighting? I mean, I could understand it if the creature attacked you and tried to rip you to shreds, but all that happened was you saw it eating leaves. I'd love to get that chance, especially if I was hunting. I'd put an end to this debate once and for all.

I never said it was my Bigfoot sighting that drove me to alcoholism. I mentioned that I one time suffered from it.

I have no idea why I was so traumatized. Maybe because we all deal with situations differently? Maybe because I had never been in the woods before? Maybe because I was a boy and I had a 9 foot monster standing right there in front of me? Maybe because I am a big baby? Are you a psychologist? If so, I welcome your opinion. If not you can keep it.

As an aside, when I was 12, a friend and me saw a flash of light in the woods near my house one evening that we couldn't explain. Scared us pretty good at the time, but we weren't scarred for life over it. Several years later, saw the light again, but this time, knowing a little more about the area, I realized it was coming from car lights on a road that was on the other side of the woods that I didn't know about when I was younger.

I'm glad you were not scared for life. I do not get the relevance of this story to my sighting

As for the Great Dismal Swamp area, there was a forest fire there a few years ago that they struggled to put out because it had gotten into the peat. Once that happens, those fires can burn for a long time. There were firefighters all throughout that area, and forestry planes were constantly flying over and dropping water. None of them saw a bigfoot.

Yes there was a fire there. We choked on the smoke from the fire here all summer. Were you also aware that there were a few sightings recorded in Suffolk, VA that summer? I would know this because the reports came into our research group. Suffolk is North of the swamp on the VA side.

[WGBH]

That's what I'm talking about.

John, for people who might not be inclined can you give a detailed description that elaborates on this:

- massive
- huge chest, shoulders, muscles
- narrow waist
- 9ft tall x 5 1/2 - 6 feet wide
- dark colour

The facial features? It had dark eyes (no whites) It had a conical shape to the head that sloped down to a huge brow ridge. It had a wide flat nose. I could not see any ears, perhaps the hair covered them. The skin color under the fur was also a black/dark brown color, just like the fur.

Remember I never saw anything below the waist level. Let me know if I can describe more.

[William Parcher]

When it was standing there I could see muscles moving and tendons


The artwork recreation (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6ldbdWnLMmA/SdlcQBrICAI/AAAAAAAAAcg/L33a6gB-OQY/s1600/CartwrightSightingSmall.jpg) shows a creature as shaggy as a yak. Which tendons were visible at a distance of around 50 yards?

[kitakaze]

It must be extremely challenging for that creature to move through the forest. It cannot pass through tree branches like magic. The neck is inflexible so it must bend at the waist to avoid busting its head on any branch lower than 9'. I can't foresee any rapid movements (run) inside a forest as an option for this guy.

That's right. I'm going to proceed with the idea that John saw what he says he saw - a 9ft x 6ft sasquatch in the swamp. I need to begin trying to wrap my mind around how we miss these things.

John, I don't expect you to have these answer, BTW.

These things are bigger than grizzly bears and living in North Carolina in well travelled areas. Here is the Great Dismal swamp in the winter:

http://www.unur.com/sinan/album/Assateague_Island/assateague_island_2006_0212_130525aa.jpg

John saw this thing stripping leaves off a plant the way a gorilla would. If this thing is a herbivore, it has to be eating basically non-stop. If it's omnivorous, what does it eat? I suppose it could pick up one of those horses in that picture and just slam it on the ground and then eat it. It could pick up a bear and eat it as well, I guess. I can't really imagine this thing running around in the swamp after food. I suppose it could throw some boulders or a tree if it liked.

I feel like there are clunking sounds happening in my head and smoke coming out of my ears. I really am hitting a wall with a breeding population of up to 9x6 land mammals that live in areas well traversed by humans yet remain uncatalogued. One of the first videos I linked discussed how think and impenetrable much of the vegetation is around there. If you're 9x6, do you just plow it down like MOTSfoot and clear out all the woodland creatures ahead of you?

[kitakaze]

The artwork recreation (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6ldbdWnLMmA/SdlcQBrICAI/AAAAAAAAAcg/L33a6gB-OQY/s1600/CartwrightSightingSmall.jpg) shows a creature as shaggy as a yak. Which tendons were visible at a distance of around 50 yards?

Busted link, WP.

[WGBH]

The artwork recreation (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6ldbdWnLMmA/SdlcQBrICAI/AAAAAAAAAcg/L33a6gB-OQY/s1600/CartwrightSightingSmall.jpg) shows a creature as shaggy as a yak. Which tendons were visible at a distance of around 50 yards?

The muscles on the neck, arms and back. Such as the deltoids, lats and triceps. The fur was mated and caked with mud in places. There were also some thinner fur patches where it was easier to view the skin, especially in places on the back. The fur on the depiction is cosmetically neater then the real animal. That artwork is to be used for a book by the artist, so keep that in mind.

[kitakaze]

The facial features? It had dark eyes (no whites) It had a conical shape to the head that sloped down to a huge brow ridge. It had a wide flat nose. I could not see any ears, perhaps the hair covered them. The skin color under the fur was also a black/dark brown color, just like the fur.

Remember I never saw anything below the waist level. Let me know if I can describe more.

Thanks. I used to rock at photoshop and it's been a while since I've tried doing anything other than lolbigfoots on a computer. I'm farting around now with Paint taking Sasquatch and cutting him off at the waist and redoing him to your description. How about the shape of the mouth? How could you tell there were no whites to the eyes at 50 yards? I'm trying to visualize that and it's hard.

[kitakaze]

The muscles on the neck, arms and back. Such as the deltoids, lats and triceps. The fur was mated and caked with mud in places. There were also some thinner fur patches where it was easier to view the skin, especially in places on the back. The fur on the depiction is cosmetically neater then the real animal. That artwork is to be used for a book by the artist, so keep that in mind.

I didn't realize you already had a pic of it. Can you link that? WP's was NG.

ETA: Duh. Nevermind me. I'm having a blonde moment. It's in your Blogsquatch report already linked on my bookmarks. That's the picture you put on Roger Patterson's grave when you went to Yakima. I think I may have asked you about that before (or wanted to).

Here it is:

http://blogsquatcher.blogspot.com/2009/04/round-mulberry-bush.html

[William Parcher]

My link works, KKZ. It takes you directly to the enlarged artwork.

[WGBH]

That's right. I'm going to proceed with the idea that John saw what he says he saw - a 9ft x 6ft sasquatch in the swamp. I need to begin trying to wrap my mind around how we miss these things.

John, I don't expect you to have these answer, BTW.

These things are bigger than grizzly bears and living in North Carolina in well travelled areas. Here is the Great Dismal swamp in the winter:

http://www.unur.com/sinan/album/Assateague_Island/assateague_island_2006_0212_130525aa.jpg

John saw this thing stripping leaves off a plant the way a gorilla would. If this thing is a herbivore, it has to be eating basically non-stop. If it's omnivorous, what does it eat? I suppose it could pick up one of those horses in that picture and just slam it on the ground and then eat it. It could pick up a bear and eat it as well, I guess. I can't really imagine this thing running around in the swamp after food. I suppose it could throw some boulders or a tree if it liked.

I feel like there are clunking sounds happening in my head and smoke coming out of my ears. I really am hitting a wall with a breeding population of up to 9x6 land mammals that live in areas well traversed by humans yet remain uncatalogued. One of the first videos I linked discussed how think and impenetrable much of the vegetation is around there. If you're 9x6, do you just plow it down like MOTSfoot and clear out all the woodland creatures ahead of you?

Kit,

I totally agree with what you said. It is hard to wrap ones mind around this. I have no explanation for what I saw. But I did see it. Who says it lives in the swamp? Maybe it was just passing through? The area has tons of deer and other wildlife. I am not an outdoors man. I am just now learning about the woods. I do not know what the heck happened to me. But I hope to understand it someday.

[kitakaze]

Kit,

I totally agree with what you said. It is hard to wrap ones mind around this. I have no explanation for what I saw. But I did see it. Who says it lives in the swamp? Maybe it was just passing through? The area has tons of deer and other wildlife. I am not an outdoors man. I am just now learning about the woods. I do not know what the heck happened to me. But I hope to understand it someday.

I bet you can guess Neil Burgstahler or Henry Franzoni would have a good explanation for you...

:alien011:

Think about it all the paranormal phenomena in the area, a lake made from a meteorite...

This would almost work easier for me.:D

Seriously, though, passing through is still hard for me because your 9x6 and you have to pass from somewhere.

[WGBH]

Thanks. I used to rock at photoshop and it's been a while since I've tried doing anything other than lolbigfoots on a computer. I'm farting around now with Paint taking Sasquatch and cutting him off at the waist and redoing him to your description. How about the shape of the mouth? How could you tell there were no whites to the eyes at 50 yards? I'm trying to visualize that and it's hard.

Yes it was difficult to see the eyes. First of all when it would turn around to look in my direction, I would duck my head down in fear. The eyes were set back under the brow so they had a dark appearance. Maybe it did have eye whites? But I did not see any, they looked very dark. Most of my facial looks were done in profile view.

Oh Yeah, I forgot. When the animal was chewing, I could see the jaw muscles on the temple flexing.

[WGBH]

I bet you can guess Neil Burgstahler or Henry Franzoni would have a good explanation for you...

:alien011:

Think about it all the paranormal phenomena in the area, a lake made from a meteorite...

This would almost work easier for me.:D

Seriously, though, passing through is still hard for me because your 9x6 and you have to pass from somewhere.

OMG! Don't mention Franzoni to me. One night after listening to him on a radio show, I had nightmares that Bigfoot anal probed me when I was under infrasound control.

[William Parcher]

When I walked over to where it had been standing, I could tell by where it's head was on the tree, that it was 9' tall.


John, why does the artwork show it feeding on bushes instead of a tree?

[kitakaze]

My link works, KKZ. It takes you directly to the enlarged artwork.

Sorry, my mistake. I was getting a "not found" message then it worked. That picture is neato but it doesn't look 6 ft wide.

[WGBH]

John, why does the artwork show it feeding on bushes instead of a tree?

It was feeding on a berry bush or shrub. There were trees around it but it was not eating the trees. They were pine trees. The foliage in the area that it was standing in was very thick. When it stepped away, I could no longer see it.

[William Parcher]

I asked JC if he ever found out what tree the creature was eating from, and he told me that it was a mulberry.

JC looked for footprints under the tree, but there weren’t any there.

In reality, you were looking under a bush?

[WGBH]

In reality, you were looking under a bush?

There was a tree and bushes there. I was looking under both. Didn't see anything except leaves and pine needles.

[William Parcher]

But you did tell Donlon that it was feeding from a tree and that you used that tree to guage its height, yes?

[WGBH]

But you did tell Donlon that it was feeding from a tree and that you used that tree to guage its height, yes?

I used a tree to gauge its height and it was eating from a bush. There could have been a mix up or misunderstanding. Again, the trees were pine trees. It was not eating pine trees.

[kitakaze]

John, you mentioned other reports from Great Dismal. Looking at the BFRO I get nothing else from that area or surrounding counties in NC or VA. Nothing in Perquimans, Camden, Gates, or anywhere. It's like your one report from 1982 is on an island surrounded by nothing. Do you have links to those other Dismal reports we can see?

BTW, for all the time I've spent performing music in the U.S., it think maybe it bothers me that I know far more about U.S. states, counties, and geography from Bigfoot skepticism than I do from music tours. :o

[William Parcher]

I used a tree to gauge its height and it was eating from a bush. There could have been a mix up or misunderstanding. Again, the trees were pine trees. It was not eating pine trees.


In that respect, the report is misleading. The art shows one thing (more accurate) and the story tells something different.

So it was feeding on unknown berry bushes that were about waist-height and you could see those berries from about 50 yards away, yes?

[William Parcher]

Do you have links to those other Dismal reports we can see?


:D

[WGBH]

In that respect, the report is misleading. The art shows one thing (more accurate) and the story tells something different.

So it was feeding on unknown berry bushes that were about waist-height and you could see those berries from about 50 yards away, yes?

The report and the article are not misleading. That is what happened to me.The reports are what I remember to the best of my ability. Yes I saw it trying to eat the berries, it did not like them! The berry bush was not waist high to the animal. That is the brush surrounding him not the Berry bush. Believe the story and not the artwork.

I am not responsible for creating the artwork.The artwork is a ARTISTS RENDITION of the animal I saw. It is not perfect. All I did was share it with all of you. It is a very nice picture that is a good representation of the animal I saw, but that is all. Do not read too much into the artwork, for goodness sakes.

[WGBH]

Bigfoot reports from or around the Dismal swamp. I will search for more and put them up later. I am watching TV. LOL!

A few class B's from the BFRO

http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=4788

http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=22910

Another Story:

http://bigfootsasquatch.wordpress.com/2008/01/07/2007-bigfoot-report-north-carolina/

[SweatyYeti]

Originally Posted by kitakaze http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4766305#post4766305)
Thanks for the clarification.

I do not know what you saw but I think you can understand better than anyone that the idea of a species of mammal up to 9ft, 5ft wide living in the swamps of North Carolina is pretty extreme.



I know exactly what John saw....if he saw anything. It was Bigfoot, beyond a shadow of a doubt.


There are only 2 plausible explanations for his sighting report...

1) He saw Bigfoot.....or...

2) He's making the whole story up.

I think he's being honest, and saw a real, live Bigfoot.


The other options...misidentified Bear, and a guy in a suit, just aren't plausible because of the clarity and duration of the sighting....and the description of the creature.


Seeing as how the Jref crowd puts no weight on 'anecdotal' evidence...such as sighting reports....I'm wondering why skeptics here are even bothering to ask John questions about his sighting.

Regardless of what his answers are....the verdict, by Randi's Heroes, is pre-determined. His sighting testimony is an "extremely weak cup of coffee".

Is that not right??



Here is a beautiful example of the weight attributed to Bigfoot evidence, in Randi-Land...:)...


I recently asked kitakaze...(a.k.a..."Thunder-Cheeks")....to provide an example of 'Bigfoot evidence' which carries some amount of weight....(weak, or moderately strong)....

Give us all ONE example of Bigfoot evidence which carries either a low, fair, or moderate amount of weight, indicating Bigfoot may exist.


And this is the strongest-rated evidence he could come up with...



Sure thing, Fibby... err... Sweaty.

The PGF has the extremely remote chance of actually showing a Bigfoot.


"Extremely remote"... ;)


How then could John's report possibly be given any weight, above only a 'remote probability'?



This just in.....from Old Thunder-Butt...:cool:...

Incredibly poor or weak evidence to suggest Bigfoot may exist? Yes.

Reliable or high quality evidence of significant weight to suggest Bigfoot may exist? No. Zilch.

[William Parcher]

The report and the article are not misleading. That is what happened to me.The reports are what I remember to the best of my ability. Yes I saw it trying to eat the berries, it did not like them! The berry bush was not waist high to the animal. That is the brush surrounding him not the Berry bush. Believe the story and not the artwork.

I want to thank you for your patience here. You are answering all of the questions. John, I read the report several times and never once thought it was feeding from something other than an unknown berry tree. That is because the report says "I asked JC if he ever found out what tree the creature was eating from, and he told me that it was a mulberry." It should actually read "I asked JC if he ever found out what tree the creature was eating from, and he told me that it wasn't a tree and was instead a mulberry bush." Or, your correction would have caused him to revise and we would never see the phrase "...tree the creature was eating from,"

You said you didn't see any tracks under or around the bush. Did your friends look around on the ground there too?

[SweatyYeti]

Edited to remove post...and add to my previous post.

[William Parcher]

Sweaty, I find it very disrespectful to John for you to bring trash talk to this thread.

[WGBH]

I want to thank you for your patience here. You are answering all of the questions. John, I read the report several times and never once thought it was feeding from something other than an unknown berry tree. That is because the report says "I asked JC if he ever found out what tree the creature was eating from, and he told me that it was a mulberry." It should actually read "I asked JC if he ever found out what tree the creature was eating from, and he told me that it wasn't a tree and was instead a mulberry bush." Or, your correction would have caused him to revise and we would never see the phrase "...tree the creature was eating from,"

You said you didn't see any tracks under or around the bush. Did your friends look around on the ground there too?

William, when I first started to tell my story to the Bigfoot community, I noticed that one of the questions researchers asked me frequently was "what type of Berry was the animal eating?" I was a 17 year old boy, I was not a botanist. I googled wild berries of North Carolina and looked at photos. To the best of my recollection from looking at those pictures, I think it was a Mulberry bush. It may not have been. I am not a berry expert.

My "friends" were too busy laughing at me and ridiculing me to look for Bigfoot footprints. The way they treated me was the main reason I never spoke about my encounter.

[William Parcher]

It's ok that you don't know what kind of berry bush it was. I'm sure there are ways to find out, even if it means going back to the general area.

So there were bushes concealing its lower body, but it wasn't feeding from those. What was the height of the bush(es) it was actually feeding from?

[LTC8K6]

IMO what I witnessed looked like a large ape walking bipedal. It did not look or behave to me as a human being.

Witnesses who have had rifles with them have said that the bigfoot they saw looked too much like a human for them to think of shooting at it. John's bigfoot does not seem to meet this criteria.

[WGBH]

It's ok that you don't know what kind of berry bush it was. I'm sure there are ways to find out, even if it means going back to the general area.

So there were bushes concealing its lower body, but it wasn't feeding from those. What was the height of the bush(es) it was actually feeding from?

It was reaching out and up as it was feeding. So chest level and above. It was not bending down or reaching down.

[WGBH]

Witnesses who have had rifles with them have said that the bigfoot they saw looked too much like a human for them to think of shooting at it. John's bigfoot does not seem to meet this criteria.

I did have a rifle with me. I never even picked it up.

[WGBH]

I am going to sleep everyone. I will start answering questions again tomorrow.
Goodnight.

[SweatyYeti]

Sweaty, I find it very disrespectful to John for you to bring trash talk to this thread.


This is respect for what John has said..

SweatyYeti wrote:

I think he's being honest, and saw a real, live Bigfoot.




This is disrespect for everything that everybody has ever said, in their testimonies...


kitakaze wrote:

....high quality evidence of significant weight to suggest Bigfoot may exist? No. Zilch.

[William Parcher]

My "friends" were too busy laughing at me and ridiculing me to look for Bigfoot footprints. The way they treated me was the main reason I never spoke about my encounter.


Did you take them over to where you saw the Bigfoot? Also I'm curious where you were when they finally came for you.

[William Parcher]

Sweaty, it's the trashy name-calling of KKZ and JREF that is disrespectful to John.

[SweatyYeti]

Sweaty, it's the trashy name-calling of KKZ and JREF that is disrespectful to John.


"Trashy"?

How about this, from The Great and Powerful Kaze, to wvbig...


No, we think poor research is poor research. Suck it up and don't be so sloppy next time. Unless, that is, you want someone like me to come along and school you making you look lazy and addled by Bigfoot confirmation bias just like I'm doing now.



The Great Kaaz sees fit to judge everybody's ability to think.....yet when wolftrax posted his bogus, custom-altered doll-hand illusion gif, which has no relevance to anything...kitakaze instantly praised it....without question, or critical thought.

Old Thunder-Cheeks stands on his *-*-*-*- throne, and babbles-on, insulting every single Bigfoot proponent's ability to think objectively.


He thinks of himself as the 'Uncrowned King of Thunderdome'...:cool:.......but I see him more as the 'Uncrowned Janitor of Tinkledome'...http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w28/SweatyYeti/Pee1.jpg

[Vortigern99]

At about 9 o’clock, JC caught a whiff of something awful. “ It was like a dog that had been rolling in crap,” he said. “It was really bad. It was so bad it made my eyes water and it made me gag. Then I started having dry heaves, like I was going to vomit.” Maybe because he hadn’t yet eaten that day, JC was able to hold off the nausea. But the trouble didn’t stop there. “Then I felt like a static electricity shock, it felt like, and kind of.. have you been shocked before, it’s like your just frozen? All the hairs on your body are standing up, and you’re just stuck there, I guess. Then I started feeling like, I could feel my internal organs.. my heart, my lungs. I don’t know how to describe it, I’ve never been able to feel it before, but I could feel them. I can’t explain it, but maybe they were getting some kind of trauma. It was just the weirdest thing I had ever felt. And then I started having some kind of muscle spasms or nervous spasms, really bad, and I kind of slumped down on the floor of the deer stand, and curled up in the fetal position.” JC thinks he was on the floor for about five minutes, and then the strange feelings began to lessen.

I asked JC what he thought at the time about what might have caused the feelings, and he gave it some thought. “I didn’t know what.. when that was happening to me, I don’t know what it was. I really don’t remember what I was thinking. I just knew that I had never felt anything like that. Before or since. Never felt anything like that.”

WGBH, given your description of this event, which preceded the sighting of the presumed bigfoot, I would like to submit the possibility that you were having a hypnagogic hallucination, which sometimes occur in conjunction with sleep paralysis.

"Hypnagogia" is the transitional state between wakefulness and sleep. A hypnagogic hallucination is a dream that occurs between the REM (dream-) state and full wakefulness. Such hallucinations can and have been taken as real events in the minds of those who experience them.

Sleep paralysis is a condition that sometimes occurs when the brain awakens from the REM (dream-) state, but body paralysis -- a natural part of the REM state -- persists. This conscious-yet-paralyzed state is sometimes accompanied by hypnagogic hallucinations and an acute sense of danger and panic. Distorted perceptions of one's surroundings, and imagined objects or beings, are known and documented elements of these paralyzed hallucinations.

In the above-quoted report, you say you had not eaten that day and that you became weak and debilitated from nausea. You describe being "frozen... stuck there" prior to being "curled up in the fetal position" on the floor of the deer stand "for about five minutes".

This sounds like a description of sleep paralysis.

You also describe being alone in the woods for the first time in your life. "Sudden environmental change" is a factor that has been reported to increase the likelihood of sleep paralysis occurring. Others include:

* Sleeping in a face upwards or supine position
* Irregular sleeping schedules; naps, sleeping in, sleep deprivation
* Increased stress
* Sudden environmental/lifestyle changes
* A lucid dream that immediately precedes the episode.

WGBH, if you are interested in discovering what happened to you that night in 1982, and have an open mind on the subject, I invite you to look into sleep paralysis and hypnagogic hallucinations, and decide for yourself if the factors involved with this known and studied, but little understood, phenomenon, match your recollection of the events.

It occurs to me that you might have witnessed a bear from the deer stand and, in your waking dream state, distorted the perception into a bigfoot, of which creature you have said you were aware from television. The feelings of panic and irrational danger that often accompany sleep paralysis have stuck with you all these years, and have led or contributed to on-going feelings of unease associated with the memory.


From WebMD:

Over the centuries, symptoms of sleep paralysis have been described in many ways and often attributed to "evil" presences: unseen night demons in ancient times, the old hag in Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, and alien abductors. Almost every culture throughout history has had stories of shadowy evil creatures that terrify helpless humans at night. People have long sought explanations for this mysterious sleep-time paralysis and the accompanying feelings of terror.

But sleep researchers now know that, in most cases, sleep paralysis is simply a sign that your body is not moving smoothly through the stages of sleep. Rarely is sleep paralysis linked to deep underlying psychiatric problems.


I honestly hope this helps. Here are some quick links to get you started in any research you care to undertake:

http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/sleep-paralysis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_Paralysis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogic_hallucinations
http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P.html

NOTE: I've relied on wikipedia's entries for the general wording of some of my descriptions of these conditions or phenomena, but the wiki entries are fully corroborated and supported by medical websites' descriptions and definitions of the terms as well. Also, I've written an unpublished novel in which the main character experiences sleep paralysis and hypnagogic hallucinations. I mention this to explain how I've come to understand a little about these events beyond simply looking them up tonight on the internet.

[kitakaze]

Yes I saw it trying to eat the berries, it did not like them!

This is very interesting to me. I want to share the details from the detailed report on Blogsquatcher's site:

It was eating. It was eating berries and leaves. I could see it reach out, and it would grab a branch, and it stick the whole branch in its mouth and just pull it through its mouth and just strip everything off of it. Especially the leaves, it would pull them off of it. The berries that were there, I don’t think it liked very much, because it would eat one and it would.. or it would pick it and put it up to its face.. I couldn’t tell if it was smelling it or looking at it, because it was too far for me to tell what it was doing, but it was putting it up to its face, and then it would throw it down on the ground like, ‘I’m not going to eat that!’ Like it was fussy.

John, do you recall the colour of the berries?

I am not responsible for creating the artwork.The artwork is a ARTISTS RENDITION of the animal I saw. It is not perfect. All I did was share it with all of you. It is a very nice picture that is a good representation of the animal I saw, but that is all. Do not read too much into the artwork, for goodness sakes.

It's great and I love it:

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1133

Forelorn Bigfoots are great. If I saw a 9x6 Bigfoot like that 50 yards from me, I know I'd be flipping out and rubbing my eyes.

[William Parcher]

I wonder what the size of that 9 footer is from 50 yards away. I mean like if you hold a ruler at arms length (exact distance from eyes to ruler specified) and measure the creature as you see it. How many inches tall is it?

[xblade]

So, you guys think I saw a member of Alpha Flight that was vacationing in the Dismal Swamp? :D



Too bad it wasn't that Snowbird chick instead, lol.

[kitakaze]

This is respect for what John has said..

SweatyYeti wrote:


I think he's being honest, and saw a real, live Bigfoot.

That's not respect, Sweaty. You seem to understand so little about respect. What that is is the desire to believe and it's your specialty.

This is disrespect for everything that everybody has ever said, in their testimonies...


kitakaze wrote:

high quality evidence of significant weight to suggest Bigfoot may exist? No. Zilch.

Sorry, Sweaty but that is unfortunately another thing you so often misunderstand - reality. I know it bothers you immensely but I know from John's writing that he is smart enough to know that without something more meaningful, his sighting can never be high quality evidence of Bigfoot. He may have very well seen the 9x6 creature he thinks he saw in 1982 but it is not reliable and verifiable evidence in establishing Bigfoot's existence now.

Sweaty, John knows this acutely and that understanding of the nature of the reality of his experience is what drives him to get out into the woods 30 times in the last year despite the deep psychological torment that it causes him. That is the measure of his commitment and he doesn't waste his time farting about with crayons on a 40 year old highly dubious film that will never have any heavy, significant value as reliable evidence of Bigfoot until a type specimen or at least good, unambiguous film or video of clear provenance that matches what is seen on the film is obtained.

For that John can earn a measure of respect even from evil "scoftics" like me. You are a whole different story. You understand nothing how John feels. If you knew anything about that you would never say such a moronic thing as this:

You're a very lucky guy, to have seen one!

Especially the amount of mental and emotional anguish he's been through in the last 25 years.

I think this thread is providing you with a perfect example of just how foolish the things you say can be.

[kitakaze]

I wonder what the size of that 9 footer is from 50 yards away. I mean like if you hold a ruler at arms length (exact distance from eyes to ruler specified) and measure the creature as you see it. How many inches tall is it?

Exactly. This is what I don't understand. I'm not saying this disqualifies anything John is claiming so far but all I have to do is look out the beyond some trees to a street where about 50 yards away is a bus stop. No matter what the lighting or time of day, I can not see the white of the eyes of the people waiting for the bus.

[kitakaze]

I am going to sleep everyone. I will start answering questions again tomorrow.
Goodnight.

Oyasumi. (G'night)

Colors of the berries and distance vs detail (eye whites, etc) will be my first question when you return.

[kitakaze]

I want to thank you for your patience here. You are answering all of the questions. John, I read the report several times and never once thought it was feeding from something other than an unknown berry tree. That is because the report says "I asked JC if he ever found out what tree the creature was eating from, and he told me that it was a mulberry." It should actually read "I asked JC if he ever found out what tree the creature was eating from, and he told me that it wasn't a tree and was instead a mulberry bush." Or, your correction would have caused him to revise and we would never see the phrase "...tree the creature was eating from,"

You said you didn't see any tracks under or around the bush. Did your friends look around on the ground there too?

WP, isn't a Mulberry a deciduous tree?

[William Parcher]

Indeed it is, but when they are smaller people might call them a bush. They get quite large and make a mess of berries that will blanket the ground all around it. If you park near one, your car will get covered with blue bird crap.

[xblade]

First of all, that statement is from the BFRO report. I mentioned earlier that the other article was more detailed. I said 50 yards initially but it may have been closer if you take into account I was 10 feet high up in a tree. This was covered in detail by the article. I saw the creature very well and also smelled the odor

Sorry, just going by the report. It is your report, right? Would you prefer I go by the embellished version that says you were gut zapped by bigfoot's infrasound ray?


I never said it was my Bigfoot sighting that drove me to alcoholism. I mentioned that I one time suffered from it.

My mistake. When you said "If you discount the nightmares, alcoholism, relationship problems and living a lie about what I witnessed", I thought you were saying your sighting was responsible for all these things.


I have no idea why I was so traumatized. Maybe because we all deal with situations differently? Maybe because I had never been in the woods before? Maybe because I was a boy and I had a 9 foot monster standing right there in front of me? Maybe because I am a big baby? Are you a psychologist? If so, I welcome your opinion. If not you can keep it.

I didn't offer an opinion, I asked a question. Just curious, did your black bear sighting the same day bother you, an animal that has been known to attack, kill and eat people?

I'm glad you were not scared for life. I do not get the relevance of this story to my sighting?

No relevance in particular, just my personal story for perspective. I am allowed, aren't I?

Were you also aware that there were a few sightings recorded in Suffolk, VA that summer? I would know this because the reports came into our research group. Suffolk is North of the swamp on the VA side.

Nope, didn't hear about them. Any chance they got a clear pic, video, or body? I'd love to see them if they did.

[xblade]

Exactly. This is what I don't understand. I'm not saying this disqualifies anything John is claiming so far but all I have to do is look out the beyond some trees to a street where about 50 yards away is a bus stop. No matter what the lighting or time of day, I can not see the white of the eyes of the people waiting for the bus.

Wasn't Patty filmed at 102' more or less, according to the story?

http://www.puppstheories.com/forum/images/BigfootPattersonBluffCreek1967.jpg

SvEERL2Efdk

[The Professor]

I saw a small Bigfoot on Mt. St. Helens in 1973. They are real!

[WGBH]

This is very interesting to me. I want to share the details from the detailed report on Blogsquatcher's site:



John, do you recall the colour of the berries?
Blue/Purpleish



It's great and I love it: Me too, but it's just a piece of art

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1133

Forelorn Bigfoots are great. If I saw a 9x6 Bigfoot like that 50 yards from me, I know I'd be flipping out and rubbing my eyes.

Now that was funny!

[WGBH]

Xblade,

I am not going to answer condescending questions from people who accuse me of embellissing. Been there, done that.

[WGBH]

Exactly. This is what I don't understand. I'm not saying this disqualifies anything John is claiming so far but all I have to do is look out the beyond some trees to a street where about 50 yards away is a bus stop. No matter what the lighting or time of day, I can not see the white of the eyes of the people waiting for the bus.

Fair enough, perhaps that is why I didnt see any. I am not speculating why I did not see them, just that I did not. Be it that the animal had dark eyes or I just could not see the whites, either way I did not see them.

[WGBH]

Indeed it is, but when they are smaller people might call them a bush. They get quite large and make a mess of berries that will blanket the ground all around it. If you park near one, your car will get covered with blue bird crap.

Tree, bush or brush, call it what you want. It was smaller then the pine trees and larger then the brush. It had large leaves and blue/purpleish berries.

[WGBH]

WGBH, given your description of this event, which preceded the sighting of the presumed bigfoot, I would like to submit the possibility that you were having a hypnagogic hallucination, which sometimes occur in conjunction with sleep paralysis.

"Hypnagogia" is the transitional state between wakefulness and sleep. A hypnagogic hallucination is a dream that occurs between the REM (dream-) state and full wakefulness. Such hallucinations can and have been taken as real events in the minds of those who experience them.

Sleep paralysis is a condition that sometimes occurs when the brain awakens from the REM (dream-) state, but body paralysis -- a natural part of the REM state -- persists. This conscious-yet-paralyzed state is sometimes accompanied by hypnagogic hallucinations and an acute sense of danger and panic. Distorted perceptions of one's surroundings, and imagined objects or beings, are known and documented elements of these paralyzed hallucinations.

In the above-quoted report, you say you had not eaten that day and that you became weak and debilitated from nausea. You describe being "frozen... stuck there" prior to being "curled up in the fetal position" on the floor of the deer stand "for about five minutes".

This sounds like a description of sleep paralysis.

You also describe being alone in the woods for the first time in your life. "Sudden environmental change" is a factor that has been reported to increase the likelihood of sleep paralysis occurring. Others include:

* Sleeping in a face upwards or supine position
* Irregular sleeping schedules; naps, sleeping in, sleep deprivation
* Increased stress
* Sudden environmental/lifestyle changes
* A lucid dream that immediately precedes the episode.

WGBH, if you are interested in discovering what happened to you that night in 1982, and have an open mind on the subject, I invite you to look into sleep paralysis and hypnagogic hallucinations, and decide for yourself if the factors involved with this known and studied, but little understood, phenomenon, match your recollection of the events.

It occurs to me that you might have witnessed a bear from the deer stand and, in your waking dream state, distorted the perception into a bigfoot, of which creature you have said you were aware from television. The feelings of panic and irrational danger that often accompany sleep paralysis have stuck with you all these years, and have led or contributed to on-going feelings of unease associated with the memory.


From WebMD:

Over the centuries, symptoms of sleep paralysis have been described in many ways and often attributed to "evil" presences: unseen night demons in ancient times, the old hag in Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, and alien abductors. Almost every culture throughout history has had stories of shadowy evil creatures that terrify helpless humans at night. People have long sought explanations for this mysterious sleep-time paralysis and the accompanying feelings of terror.

But sleep researchers now know that, in most cases, sleep paralysis is simply a sign that your body is not moving smoothly through the stages of sleep. Rarely is sleep paralysis linked to deep underlying psychiatric problems.


I honestly hope this helps. Here are some quick links to get you started in any research you care to undertake:

http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/sleep-paralysis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_Paralysis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogic_hallucinations
http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P.html

NOTE: I've relied on wikipedia's entries for the general wording of some of my descriptions of these conditions or phenomena, but the wiki entries are fully corroborated and supported by medical websites' descriptions and definitions of the terms as well. Also, I've written an unpublished novel in which the main character experiences sleep paralysis and hypnagogic hallucinations. I mention this to explain how I've come to understand a little about these events beyond simply looking them up tonight on the internet.

Vortigern,

I am at work this morning. If I had to make a knee jerk reaction, I would say it was not sleep paralysis. But I will study the information you provided closer when I get home tonight. I want to be fair to you and the fine research you put into it, so it does deserve a closer look when I have more time. Thank you so much for your effort.

[Wauthan]

Just wanted to drop out of lurking and thank you guys for this thread. While these forums see quite a lot of discussions about the bigfoot phenomena it's very rare to read a first hand eyewitness report.

I have little to add to the discussion though, but felt you it might be a good idea to remind you veterans that you teach us newbies something new every time. :D

Good to see what kind of questions that are asked and what answers that are available. I can see why so many exotic explanations crop up to explain the elusive nature of the creature. It's a very troubling paradox for the eyewitnesses that they see something that they are sure is there, but is night impossible to explain rationally.

How can such a large creature, apparently seen by quite a few people in the USA, somehow withstand every attempt to gather clear evidence for it's existance? I can understand why such an experience would be though to deal with.

[xblade]

Xblade,

I am not going to answer condescending questions from people who accuse me of embellissing. Been there, done that.

Yawn. Excuse making from another footer. Been there, done that. Just curious, can bigfoot fly in the latest version of your story?

[WGBH]

Did you take them over to where you saw the Bigfoot? Also I'm curious where you were when they finally came for you.

I tried to get them to come with me when I went to inspect the area where the animal had been standing, because I was so terrified. They wanted no part of it.


I was still sitting in the tree stand when they returned to get me around noon. I sat there for 3 hours after the sighting, trying not to make any noise and scared to death. I was thinking thoughts like, I am never going to see my family again. That thing is going to come back here and yank me out of this tree and kill me. Those 3 hours were the worst part of the entire encounter.

[WGBH]

Can someone inform me if there is a ignore function on this forum please?

Nevermind, I found it.

[SweatyYeti]

I saw a small Bigfoot on Mt. St. Helens in 1973. They are real!


Cool! Congrats on your sighting, Professor....you're a very lucky guy! :)

Have you talked about it on this board, before?

[SweatyYeti]

kitakaze wrote:
What that is is the desire to believe and it's your specialty.



Ahhhhh......the DESIRE to BELIEVE! ;)


Kinda like what you displayed....when you first laid eyes on wolfy's Bull-tastic doll-hand gif....the one with the Magic Marker "adjustment" in it...

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w28/SweatyYeti/Patty/GooGooGaaGaa9999.gif



Little did you know your reaction was caught on our hidden camera!
Rooooooooll the tape, Bubbles....


http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w28/SweatyYeti/GeorgeJefferson1.gif Wooooo.....Wheezzie....it's AWESOME......absolutely 'drop-dead, knock your brains out AWESOME', I tell ya'!!!"

"I'm with you, George....I'm right with ya'!!!!!!





3 Cheers for the "Desire to Believe"!! :D

[LTC8K6]

The rifle doesn't seem to have eased John's fears of being attacked.

[Profwag]

I saw a small Bigfoot on Mt. St. Helens in 1973. They are real!

I saw a bigfoot just this morning and it too was real! 'Course, I wear a size 14 shoe...

[kitakaze]

I saw a small Bigfoot on Mt. St. Helens in 1973. They are real!

I saw a mediocre magician claim to have paranormal abilities on the JREF in 2008/2009. Not one but two! Jim Callahan/Jack Galloway and David Koenig/Psychic Samurai/The Professor. They are real!

[kitakaze]

Cool! Congrats on your sighting, Professor....you're a very lucky guy! :)

Have you talked about it on this board, before?

*facepalm*

[kitakaze]

Ahhhhh......the DESIRE to BELIEVE! ;)


Kinda like what you displayed....when you first laid eyes on wolfy's Bull-tastic doll-hand gif....the one with the Magic Marker "adjustment" in it...

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w28/SweatyYeti/Patty/GooGooGaaGaa9999.gif

1980 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4745937&postcount=1980)

2103 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4760048&postcount=2103)

Desire to believe? OK, let's check the beliefs as explicitly written.

Sweaty, since you would like to keep obnoxiously trying to derail this thread with your flailing, let's try a simple test of intellectual honesty. Simple question, yes or no...
I wrote that wolftrax's redux of Spektator's doll hand demo was awesome. I felt it was a good illustration of the point he was trying to make and I complimented him on it. I have even conceded that it hasn't been ruled out as an explanation.

Did I or did I not many times prior to and after complimenting wolftrax's demonstration explicitly state and make perfectly clear that in my opinion real fingers are the best explanation over the doll hand demo for any perceived finger movement in Patty? Yes or no - answer the question, please.

Little did you know your reaction was caught on our hidden camera!

:dl:

You mean recorded in a post I made on a massive forum on the internet available for anyone in the world with internet access to see? That hidden camera? Sweaty, you are truly a special mind.;)


3 Cheers for the "Desire to Believe"!! :D

You make it far too easy for me, Sweaty. Three cheers for the desire to believe, here you go:

Cool! Congrats on your sighting, Professor....you're a very lucky guy! :)

Cool! Congrats on your sighting, Professor....you're a very lucky guy! :)

Cool! Congrats on your sighting, Professor....you're a very lucky guy! :)

David Koenig/The Professor/Psychic Samurai is laughing his ass off.

And so am I.:D

[xblade]

The rifle doesn't seem to have eased John's fears of being attacked.

Infrasound rays can have that affect on people.

[kitakaze]

Vortigern,

I am at work this morning. If I had to make a knee jerk reaction, I would say it was not sleep paralysis. But I will study the information you provided closer when I get home tonight. I want to be fair to you and the fine research you put into it, so it does deserve a closer look when I have more time. Thank you so much for your effort.

John, I am not going to say that you definitely had a case of sleep paralysis and the associated hynagogic hallucinations but I will definitely say that at this point it bears some consideration regarding your experience and can not be fully ruled out. I myself have experienced sleep paralysis many, many times and know how terrifying and real it can feel. First, here are some threads we have related to the subject:

Sleep Paralysis (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=135297)

Sleep Paralysis (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=137550)

Need help: Scary sleep problem. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=140072)

Why do only people who believe see "shadow people"? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=142747)

Lucid Dreaming. WTF?! (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=138288)

Have you hallucinated without being dreaming, tripping, or mentally ill? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=32843)

Sleep paralysis - my experience (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=31067)

Now, John, you may think this is a bizarre explanation but I have already know without doubt that there are claimed Bigfoot encounters that are most certainly sleep paralysis. I am going to copypasta part of the Blogsquatch version of your encounter story and highlight the parts that I think could have some indication of sleep paralysis and associated hallucination:

JC’s encounter occurred in Pasquotank County, North Carolina, near the river that lends the county its name. He had gone there with a friend and his father to spend a little time hunting. JC was not himself a hunter -- in fact, he told me that he had never really been in the woods before this time. “I’m a city boy, a beach boy. I hadn’t been in the woods much,” he said.

“We left after his dad got off work on Friday night and then we drove down there,” he told me. “And at that time, it took us about two hours to get down there because they didn’t have the interstates that they do now. Now it only takes 45 minutes to get there. We got there about 10 or 11 o’clock at night on a Friday night. And where they parked the vehicles, we still had to walk back in the woods probably half a mile to get to where the cabins were. They had two cabins, and they were right on the Pasquatank River. And they were on these stilts, like a beach house. I guess if they get flooded, it won’t flood the cabins.”

The walk in was uneventful, according to JC, with no time to do anything more than hit the sack. Early the next morning, everyone awoke and preparations were made for the days hunting. “I had never hunted before, so they gave me a rifle and showed me how to shoot it,” JC said. “We went out right near the cabin. They showed me how to load it and shoot it and put the safety on. It kind of scared me.” JC paused for a moment. “I really wasn’t there to hunt. I just had never been in the woods, if you know what I mean? So, I’m an animal lover anyway, so I wasn’t going to shoot anything.”

There were five of them that day: JC’s friend, his friend’s little brother, their father, and his friend’s uncle, with JC making the fifth. With the uneven number, one would have to man a deer stand solo. JC drew the unlucky lot, and they took him out to their farthest deer stand. JC described the deer stand to me. “It was like a platform, and it had camouflage covering on it, and I’d been told it was a hunting blind. The only thing I could see out of was like a mail slot. It was a wooden platform floor. It didn’t have any walls, but the camouflage served as the walls of it. It was covered completely. It had a roof on it and everything.“ JC climbed up into the stand while it was still dark and listened as the sounds of the other men faded into the distance. But JC was not afraid at this point, he was excited to be out in the woods watching the animals that pass near the blind. “The wildlife started coming around. I saw a couple deer,” he said, and these he declined to shoot. “I saw a small black bear. I don’t know if it was a cub or if it was just a small one. I caught a glimpse of it as it ran by. And I also saw like, raccoon, or other little small stuff, which was pretty cool to me because I had never seen any of them before.”

But this idyllic scene was not to last. At about 9 o’clock, JC caught a whiff of something awful. “ It was like a dog that had been rolling in crap,” he said. “It was really bad. It was so bad it made my eyes water and it made me gag. Then I started having dry heaves, like I was going to vomit.” Maybe because he hadn’t yet eaten that day, JC was able to hold off the nausea. But the trouble didn’t stop there. “Then I felt like a static electricity shock, it felt like, and kind of.. have you been shocked before, it’s like your just frozen? All the hairs on your body are standing up, and you’re just stuck there, I guess. Then I started feeling like, I could feel my internal organs.. my heart, my lungs. I don’t know how to describe it, I’ve never been able to feel it before, but I could feel them. I can’t explain it, but maybe they were getting some kind of trauma. It was just the weirdest thing I had ever felt. And then I started having some kind of muscle spasms or nervous spasms, really bad, and I kind of slumped down on the floor of the deer stand, and curled up in the fetal position.” JC thinks he was on the floor for about five minutes, and then the strange feelings began to lessen.

I asked JC what he thought at the time about what might have caused the feelings, and he gave it some thought. “I didn’t know what.. when that was happening to me, I don’t know what it was. I really don’t remember what I was thinking. I just knew that I had never felt anything like that. Before or since. Never felt anything like that.”

Readers of this blog will perhaps think of the infrasound hypothesis at this point.

At this point JC was pretty disoriented. “I was really groggy and kind of getting myself back together. I sat back up, and was like, what the hell was that? And I started to look out the deer stand again. Then all the sudden I started hearing something, like footsteps, like branches breaking, like leaves crunching, like bushes rattling. Like something was moving through the forest. I was thinking, oh thank God! I hope it’s my friend and his dad coming to get me out of this.” But it was not his friends returning to fetch him.

I don't think it's necessary to get into the actual experience of what may have been a hallucination. Let me share with you my own experience regarding sleep paralysis. It happens to me often. Not only that but also lucid dreams and highly vivid an super-real dreams where I am sure I am awake and tesing myself to ensure that I am awake. I can recall any number of these dreams as though they were real experiences. I can recall with vivid detail such dreams going back to my childhood. Only by the nature of the experience am I able to differentiate them from memories of real occurences.

When I experience sleep paralysis it is almost always when I am between sleeping and waking. Sometimes I don't realize I have been sleeping. I feel and begin to hear a malevolent presence in my vicinity. Sometimes I can begin to see or feel something and realize I am unable to move. Sometimes I am lying prone but sometimes curled up on my side. This is where the natural fear sets in. Over the years it has happened so much that sometimes I become somewhat aware that I am in a state of paralysis. Sometimes I become intent on fighting the paralysis but sometimes my focus goes to a type of rage against the phantom being harrassing me. My sense of time becomes very distorted and sometimes I can see the most vivid beings. Invariably when I fully regain conciousness and movement I am out of it and feel like I've been through an ordeal.

Again, I'm not saying sleep paralysis is the best explanation for your experience but frankly it is a much better one than to think there really was a 9ft by 6ft gargantuan land beast at the mulberry bush. Think about it carefully and let's have a look again at cos' excellent diagram:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_217054a23021ae5fa0.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=16558)

If what you described is accurate, then what you witnessed was a true giant. Absolutely the one of the very biggest land mammals in the world that lives and breeds on the east coast of the continental U.S. amongst well traversed human habitated areas and yet never once have we been able to find even a shred of reliable evidence let alone a type specimen.

This event occurred in 1982 by your recollection and you reported a very bare bones version of it to the BFRO 16 years later in 1998. A much more graphic and detailed account is recorded again by your friend and fellow Bigfoot enthusiast organization member, DB Donlon another 11 years later. It is very possible that not only did you experience sleep paralysis after being left alone for very long in an effective isolation chamber in the dark of the early morning after having little sleep, but that in the years since the memory has gained in detail from fear and subsequent constant nightmares. Fear, as you know, John, truly is the mind killer and can do all sorts of strange things to us. You were put with a gun in hole up a tree in the dark of the woods you had never, ever been in and left alone. You may not remember being afraid before the events 27 years ago but there is the distinct chance that the workings of the human mind and not undiscovered giants were at play.

Just something to think about. If this is way off the mark, please tell us.

[kitakaze]

So in cos' diagram I guess it kinda looks like the wee little human in blue is trying to hide Bigfoot's monster wang.

[WGBH]

Kit and Vort,

One major flaw I see in this theory.

I could smell that smell for about a day after the encounter. It seemed to be burned into my nostrils. I even tried to wash it out of my nose. Thoughts?

There are other flaws, but let's start with this one.

[kitakaze]

Kit and Vort,

One major flaw I see in this theory.

I could smell that smell for about a day after the encounter. It seemed to be burned into my nostrils. I even tried to wash it out of my nose. Thoughts?

There are other flaws, but let's start with this one.

Psychological impression. There's no mention of anyone else saying you smelt like a wet dog rolled in poo and that it burnt their eyes or nostrils.

[Vortigern99]

Enhanced sensory perception of all kinds, not only visual or auditory, is a known and documented element of hallucination.

A cursory search for "enhanced smell hallucination" turned up 138,000 hits, including the following information:

From http://www.answers.com/topic/hallucination :

Hallucinations are false or distorted sensory experiences that appear to be real perceptions. These sensory impressions are generated by the mind rather than by any external stimuli, and may be seen, heard, felt, and even smelled or tasted.

1. Perception of visual, auditory, tactile, olfactory, or gustatory experiences without an external stimulus and with a compelling sense of their reality, usually resulting from a mental disorder or as a response to a drug.
2. The objects or events so perceived.


From http://www.vcu.edu/ent/ent_nose_smell.htm :

... hallucinations of smell (smelling a particular odor when no real odor is present)....

From http://www.senseofsmell.org/feature/whitepaper/whitepaper03.php :

... phantosmia which refers to an olfactory perception when no odor source is present (olfactory hallucination)....

Also, in consideration of your understandable sensitivity about this subject, please consider the following:


Sleep researchers in Great Britain and the United States have reported that 30–37% of adults experience hypnagogic hallucinations, which occur during the passage from wakefulness into sleep, while about 10–12% report hypnopompic hallucinations, which occur as a person awakens. Hallucinations related to ordinary sleeping and waking are not considered an indication of a mental or physical disorder.

[xblade]

Psychological impression. There's no mention of anyone else saying you smelt like a wet dog rolled in poo and that it burnt there there eyes or nostrils.

Nor did this powerful, overwhelming odor seem to be lingering in the area when they came back to get him.

A bit off topic, but how irresponsible do you have to be to leave a kid alone in a tree stand who has never been hunting, and has little or no experience using a rifle? And for over 3 hours at that without checking up on him? Talk about an invitation for disaster.

[kitakaze]

With all the nightmares and anxiety over 27 years and heavy involvement with Bigfootery, one can not rule out the possibility that these were things the may have been subconciously added. There's no reason he could not have been in the vicinity of an acrid smelling plant or animal. Sounds to me like there might not have been an actual smell. He had to travel in an automobile with several other people, did he not? Nothing is said about a powerful smell Bigfoot smell clinging to him causing distress to others. He literally tried to wash the smell out of his nostrils. Sounds psychologicals. Like whenever I see Sylvia Browne I want to reach for a brillo pad and scrub the ugly away.

[kitakaze]

Nor did this powerful, overwhelming odor seem to be lingering in the area when they came back to get him.

A bit off topic, but how irresponsible do you have to be to leave a kid alone in a tree stand who has never been hunting, and has little or no experience using a rifle? And for over 3 hours at that without checking up on him? Talk about an invitation for disaster.

This is an absolutely fair question. I'm quoting it because I think John has you on ignore and I would also like to know how people could be so irresponsible. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. I mean, the former VP of the U.S. was an irresponsible hunter, why not these guys? Still, that is just messed.

[WGBH]

This is an absolutely fair question. I'm quoting it because I think John has you on ignore and I would also like to know how people could be so irresponsible. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. I mean, the former VP of the U.S. was an irresponsible hunter, why not these guys? Still, that is just messed.

They came back to get me at least 3 hours, and perhaps a bit more after the encounter. Would the smell still be lingering there? I mean, I could not tell because I still had the smell in my nose. They never mentioned it, but they were busy screaming at me. LOL

[WGBH]

A bit off topic, but how irresponsible do you have to be to leave a kid alone in a tree stand who has never been hunting, and has little or no experience using a rifle? And for over 3 hours at that without checking up on him? Talk about an invitation for disaster.

Very irresponsible. They had great parenting skills back then Huh? Actually I was in the tree stand for about 6 hours or more. From about 5:30 or 6 am till around noon.

[WGBH]

Kit,

I find it difficult to fathom that a episode of sleep paralysis would mess me up that bad. That would be one AMAZING nightmare. But who knows?

[William Parcher]

I think there are elements of John's encounter story that may be contrary to hypnagogic hallucination (HH). He describes himself in the tree stand doing a variety of voluntary physical actions some of which were prompted by the Bigfoot. Each time it turned to look around he would duck down then rise up again to look at it. That is not classic sleep paralysis in which the person is unable to move regardless of any escalating danger. As the demon moves towards you and opens its toothy mouth to bite off your hand you are unable to retract your hand to prevent it from being eaten.

If you are going to suggest that his entire encounter was HH - then I will suggest it was a dream (nightmare). Better than that, I might suggest HH and then transition to REM sleep with a Bigfoot encounter dream. The stench and gut zaps were HH and the whole Bigfoot-arrives-and-then-leaves experience was the dream. Upon awakening (whether in a chair or on the floor) his false experiences are fresh in his mind as if they actually happened with a smooth transition. We cannot measure elapsed time during these altered states but because events occur in sequence it can give the false impression that an appropriate length of time did elapse. You can dream of playing an entire 18 holes of golf with two hole-in-ones and awaken to find that you were asleep for 10 minutes.

When he awakens, he looks outside to find that there is no Bigfoot. He saw it leave the area in his dream. Instead of thinking that it was never there, he feels relief that it really did go to some other part of the forest.

We don't regard dreams as being hallucinations. Dreams are dreams. Hallucinations are something else, but they may occur before dreaming.

Do I think this is what happened to John? I can't know.

[kitakaze]

They came back to get me at least 3 hours, and perhaps a bit more after the encounter. Would the smell still be lingering there? I mean, I could not tell because I still had the smell in my nose. They never mentioned it, but they were busy screaming at me. LOL

What do you mean? I know they mocked you and said you saw a bear. Can yopu elaborate?

The smell impressed itself on you so strongly that you literally washed your nostrils out. That's a powerful impression.

John, you're a very smart guy and I want you to try and absorb something a little cryptic I'm going to say...

Fantasy is real.

I'll say it again.

Fantasy is real...

Maybe that sounds weird or dumb but think about it for a second. Fantasies can be very very real for the people that experience them and have very real effects that change their life and the lives of people around them. The next part is very important.

Not everybody that has a fantasy in their life wants, likes, or needs that fantasy and may never have tried to actively encourage it or create it.

You may be suffering from a post traumatic stress that has snowballed out of control. It can very well come from something that never happened. The experience of that time in the darkness shut away by yourself with a gun up in a deerstand in the dark woods you had never been in before left alone by those men and your friend with the expectation to be a man and kill something may have put you under a very real stress. You could have very well gone into the fitful and restless sleep that can bring on sleep paralysis.

I want you to think carefully about the possibility and try and absorb it. If it's just flat-out wrong, then you have nothing to lose but just think about it. People are out there who will coax you and encourage you to believe that what you saw is real but think about it...

Stress+fear+environment+known human phenomenon vs true giant man beast of epic size.

[xblade]

This is an absolutely fair question. I'm quoting it because I think John has you on ignore and I would also like to know how people could be so irresponsible. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. I mean, the former VP of the U.S. was an irresponsible hunter, why not these guys? Still, that is just messed.

Yeah, not saying it couldn't or didn't happen, it's just one more aspect that doesn't add up. You'd think it would be a given that you and your friend would be sharing a stand together. That's why you're there...to hang with your friend. To leave it up to a random drawing makes little sense. But again, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

To add, his "attack" sounds similar to an epileptic seizure. It's interesting to note that the attack happened before he ever saw the creature. Those suffering epileptic seizures have been known to hallucinate as a result. Here's one claim. (http://www.epilepsy.com/story/978597) Also, hunger, stress, etc have been known to cause such seizures. He said he hadn't eaten, I'd say it was probably a little stressful being stuck in unfamiliar territory, etc. Not a doctor though, just throwing it out there. A friend used to see angels during his seizures.

[xblade]

Very irresponsible. They had great parenting skills back then Huh? Actually I was in the tree stand for about 6 hours or more. From about 5:30 or 6 am till around noon.

Geez, that makes it even worse.

[kitakaze]

I think there are elements of John's encounter story that may be contrary to hypnagogic hallucination (HH). He describes himself in the tree stand doing a variety of voluntary physical actions some of which were prompted by the Bigfoot. Each time it turned to look around he would duck down then rise up again to look at it. That is not classic sleep paralysis in which the person is unable to move regardless of any escalating danger. As the demon moves towards you and opens its toothy mouth to bite off your hand you are unable to retract your hand to prevent it from being eaten.

You know my secret pain.:D I just mentioned this to Vort...

Sleep paralysis sucks. I love my dreams because I can dream so very vividly but that is the occasional downside for me. The last time I was in my bed in Tokyo after a fitful and restless sleep for only few ours in the late morning after an all night performance. After not being sure if I had really been sleeping their was a sickening presence just above my head and whispering really foul indecipherable crap in my ear while I was paralyzed. I knew what was happening wasn't real and was determined to fight it. This thing kept clutching at me from just over my head and I was in such a rage to get at it and attack it. Finally I broke free and shot my arms out and grabbed the arms of the spectre thing above me and yanked them down while shooting up to a sitting position in my bed. I was suddenly awake in bed disoriented with my hands in front of me and simply realized I had my latest sleep paralysis.

If you are going to suggest that his entire encounter was HH - then I will suggest it was a dream (nightmare). Better than that, I might suggest HH and then transition to REM sleep with a Bigfoot encounter dream. The stench and gut zaps were HH and the whole Bigfoot-arrives-and-then-leaves experience was the dream. Upon awakening (whether in a chair or on the floor) his false experiences are fresh in his mind as if they actually happened with a smooth transition. We cannot measure elapsed time during these altered states but because events occur in sequence it can give the false impression that an appropriate length of time did elapse. You can dream of playing an entire 18 holes of golf with two hole-in-ones and awaken to find that you were asleep for 10 minutes.

When he awakens, he looks outside to find that there is no Bigfoot. He saw it leave the area in his dream. Instead of thinking that it was never there, he feels relief that it really did go to some other part of the forest.

We don't regard dreams as being hallucinations. Dreams are dreams. Hallucinations are something else, but they may occur before dreaming.

Do I think this is what happened to John? I can't know.

Those are good points and we can never truly know, only try and narrow the possibilities.

[kitakaze]

There are only 2 plausible explanations for his sighting report...

1) He saw Bigfoot.....or...

2) He's making the whole story up.

You know nothing.

I think people like you are gasoline on the flame for people like John.

[WGBH]

What do you mean? I know they mocked you and said you saw a bear. Can yopu elaborate?

The smell impressed itself on you so strongly that you literally washed your nostrils out. That's a powerful impression.

John, you're a very smart guy and I want you to try and absorb something a little cryptic I'm going to say...

Fantasy is real.

I'll say it again.

Fantasy is real...

Maybe that sounds weird or dumb but think about it for a second. Fantasies can be very very real for the people that experience them and have very real effects that change their life and the lives of people around them. The next part is very important.

Not everybody that has a fantasy in their life wants, likes, or needs that fantasy and may never have tried to actively encourage it or create it.

You may be suffering from a post traumatic stress that has snowballed out of control. It can very well come from something that never happened. The experience of that time in the darkness shut away by yourself with a gun up in a deerstand in the dark woods you had never been in before left alone by those men and your friend with the expectation to be a man and kill something may have put you under a very real stress. You could have very well gone into the fitful and restless sleep that can bring on sleep paralysis.

I want you to think carefully about the possibility and try and absorb it. If it's just flat-out wrong, then you have nothing to lose but just think about it. People are out there who will coax you and encourage you to believe that what you saw is real but think about it...

Stress+fear+environment+known human phenomenon vs true giant man beast of epic size.

I was not stressed. Excited to be in the woods is more like it. I had no major fear until the sighting. I mean hell yeah, I felt ill during the smell and whatever happened to cause my incapacitation. For the record, I have never said it was infrasound. I do not know what is was. I can only explain what it felt like. I did recover from the sensations after a few mins. Except for the bad smell trapped in my nose.

To elaborate on the mocking is pointless. It was the usual things we taunt about. I am sure it was much more shocking from the point of view of a boy. It was probably just magnified by the fear. I wanted to get out of there. I even left the gun up in the tree stand and got screamed at more for that.The taunting and ridicule continued the rest of the weekend.

Will continue tomorrow. goodnight

[DogB]

Would the smell still be lingering there? I mean, I could not tell because I still had the smell in my nose.

If nobody else could smell anything (after they all settled down) then there was no real smell. Odours are one of the most common hallucinations. Our sense of smell hooks right into the most primitive parts of our brain. As suggested by others I'd strongly suspect the odour was a carry over of the traumatic experience - whether real or otherwise.

Oh BTW - being left in that hide would have scared the hell out of me.

[xblade]

This thing kept clutching at me from just over my head and I was in such a rage to get at it and attack it. Finally I broke free and shot my arms out and grabbed the arms of the spectre thing above me and yanked them down while shooting up to a sitting position in my bed. I was suddenly awake in bed disoriented with my hands in front of me and simply realized I had my latest sleep paralysis.


Next time dream about this:

http://www.beertripper.com/OffTopic/g4/Olivia-Munn-in_bra_bent_over.jpg
Do not hotlink images from other sites. Also, please be aware that pictures like this should probably be marked as not safe for work.

You'll REALLY be trying to get your hands on it. :D

[kitakaze]

Yeah, not saying it couldn't or didn't happen, it's just one more aspect that doesn't add up. You'd think it would be a given that you and your friend would be sharing a stand together. That's why you're there...to hang with your friend. To leave it up to a random drawing makes little sense. But again, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Sounds like the adults were idiots

To add, his "attack" sounds similar to an epileptic seizure. It's interesting to note that the attack happened before he ever saw the creature. Those suffering epileptic seizures have been known to hallucinate as a result. Here's one claim. (http://www.epilepsy.com/story/978597) Also, hunger, stress, etc have been known to cause such seizures. He said he hadn't eaten, I'd say it was probably a little stressful being stuck in unfamiliar territory, etc. Not a doctor though, just throwing it out there. A friend used to see angels during his seizures.

All the more reason to be respectful to John, listen carefully, and not treat him with ire or disrepsect. You make good points as you always do but if you jump to fast to think he's just straight lying, John will never listen.

This is a quick little OT but I'm I couldn't help when you mentioned epilepsy. My avatar is of Ian Curtis, the lead singer of the post-punk Manchester band Joy Division that went on to become New Order. Ian was epileptic and often had seizures (sometimes on stage) and weakened from the condition he hanged himself in his kitchen just before he was to go on his first North American tour. He was a brilliant mind in music who still inspires many musicians like me.

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=173&pictureid=1045

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Curtis

4yTIpcwBTTs

[kitakaze]

Next time dream about this:

http://www.beertripper.com/OffTopic/g4/Olivia-Munn-in_bra_bent_over.jpg
http://www.beertripper.com/OffTopic/g4/Olivia-Munn-in_bra_bent_over.jpg

You'll REALLY be trying to get your hands on it. :D

:drool:

mmmmmmm... Munnnnnn's Report....

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_896149851e585fae4.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=15106)

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_896149851eb6e7070.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=15107)

Glad I hung on to those.:D

[cos]

So in cos' diagram I guess it kinda looks like the wee little human in blue is trying to hide Bigfoot's monster wang.

I hadn't noticed that. In my efforts to avoid copyright infringement it seems I inadvertently produced bigfoot pornography. :eye-poppi

[kitakaze]

If you hadn't heard, Bigfoot like to cluster@#$%.

[WGBH]

If you hadn't heard, Bigfoot like to cluster@#$%.

Yeah, it could have been worse. I could have seen one of those Bigfoot orgies.

[mikeyx]

Sweaty, it's the trashy name-calling of KKZ and JREF that is disrespectful to John.

Maybe Sweaty doesnt like not being the center of attention. JC is trying to share his story and maybe Sweaty can go do more on the inconclusive Memorial Day stuff.

:)

[mikeyx]

"Trashy"?

How about this, from The Great and Powerful Kaze, to wvbig...





The Great Kaaz sees fit to judge everybody's ability to think.....yet when wolftrax posted his bogus, custom-altered doll-hand illusion gif, which has no relevance to anything...kitakaze instantly praised it....without question, or critical thought.

Old Thunder-Cheeks stands on his *-*-*-*- throne, and babbles-on, insulting every single Bigfoot proponent's ability to think objectively.


He thinks of himself as the 'Uncrowned King of Thunderdome'...:cool:.......but I see him more as the 'Uncrowned Janitor of Tinkledome'...http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w28/SweatyYeti/Pee1.jpg

Yeah that was very constructive, thanks for that (rolls eyes)

[mikeyx]

WGBH, given your description of this event, which preceded the sighting of the presumed bigfoot, I would like to submit the possibility that you were having a hypnagogic hallucination, which sometimes occur in conjunction with sleep paralysis.

"Hypnagogia" is the transitional state between wakefulness and sleep. A hypnagogic hallucination is a dream that occurs between the REM (dream-) state and full wakefulness. Such hallucinations can and have been taken as real events in the minds of those who experience them.

Sleep paralysis is a condition that sometimes occurs when the brain awakens from the REM (dream-) state, but body paralysis -- a natural part of the REM state -- persists. This conscious-yet-paralyzed state is sometimes accompanied by hypnagogic hallucinations and an acute sense of danger and panic. Distorted perceptions of one's surroundings, and imagined objects or beings, are known and documented elements of these paralyzed hallucinations.

In the above-quoted report, you say you had not eaten that day and that you became weak and debilitated from nausea. You describe being "frozen... stuck there" prior to being "curled up in the fetal position" on the floor of the deer stand "for about five minutes".

This sounds like a description of sleep paralysis.

You also describe being alone in the woods for the first time in your life. "Sudden environmental change" is a factor that has been reported to increase the likelihood of sleep paralysis occurring. Others include:

* Sleeping in a face upwards or supine position
* Irregular sleeping schedules; naps, sleeping in, sleep deprivation
* Increased stress
* Sudden environmental/lifestyle changes
* A lucid dream that immediately precedes the episode.

WGBH, if you are interested in discovering what happened to you that night in 1982, and have an open mind on the subject, I invite you to look into sleep paralysis and hypnagogic hallucinations, and decide for yourself if the factors involved with this known and studied, but little understood, phenomenon, match your recollection of the events.

It occurs to me that you might have witnessed a bear from the deer stand and, in your waking dream state, distorted the perception into a bigfoot, of which creature you have said you were aware from television. The feelings of panic and irrational danger that often accompany sleep paralysis have stuck with you all these years, and have led or contributed to on-going feelings of unease associated with the memory.


From WebMD:

Over the centuries, symptoms of sleep paralysis have been described in many ways and often attributed to "evil" presences: unseen night demons in ancient times, the old hag in Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, and alien abductors. Almost every culture throughout history has had stories of shadowy evil creatures that terrify helpless humans at night. People have long sought explanations for this mysterious sleep-time paralysis and the accompanying feelings of terror.

But sleep researchers now know that, in most cases, sleep paralysis is simply a sign that your body is not moving smoothly through the stages of sleep. Rarely is sleep paralysis linked to deep underlying psychiatric problems.


I honestly hope this helps. Here are some quick links to get you started in any research you care to undertake:

http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/sleep-paralysis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_Paralysis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogic_hallucinations
http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P.html

NOTE: I've relied on wikipedia's entries for the general wording of some of my descriptions of these conditions or phenomena, but the wiki entries are fully corroborated and supported by medical websites' descriptions and definitions of the terms as well. Also, I've written an unpublished novel in which the main character experiences sleep paralysis and hypnagogic hallucinations. I mention this to explain how I've come to understand a little about these events beyond simply looking them up tonight on the internet.

I've actually had a situation like that in the late 90s, and my observations would be that during the actual episode, it was VIVIDLY real, I would attribute mine in that moment to what you would hear described in a haunting, but upon awakening, just me, nevermore.

Not that that is what happened with JC, just adding for a personal perspective.

[William Parcher]

I tried to get them to come with me when I went to inspect the area where the animal had been standing, because I was so terrified. They wanted no part of it.


They had no interest in trying to confirm their own theory such as looking for bear tracks in that area?

[WGBH]

Yeah, not saying it couldn't or didn't happen, it's just one more aspect that doesn't add up. You'd think it would be a given that you and your friend would be sharing a stand together. That's why you're there...to hang with your friend. To leave it up to a random drawing makes little sense. But again, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

To add, his "attack" sounds similar to an epileptic seizure. It's interesting to note that the attack happened before he ever saw the creature. Those suffering epileptic seizures have been known to hallucinate as a result. Here's one claim. (http://www.epilepsy.com/story/978597) Also, hunger, stress, etc have been known to cause such seizures. He said he hadn't eaten, I'd say it was probably a little stressful being stuck in unfamiliar territory, etc. Not a doctor though, just throwing it out there. A friend used to see angels during his seizures.

Again, I was not stressed until the encounter. I sat in a tree and watched animals. It was new and interesting to me for a few hours,but being a kid it got boring very quickly.

The reason I did not share a stand with my friend is, his father probably new I was not seriously there to hunt. Plus the fact that my friend was only 16 years old. His father wanted him to hunt and not goof around with me all day. These "good old boys" were serious hunters. I was only there to experience the woods. Sure I had a gun, but I had no plans on using it. They did have luck and got their share of venison that weekend.

I have thought about the theory that I might have had some type of seizure. My only question would be, Why only then? I have never had another one BEFORE or SINCE that day. But who knows? maybe

[mikeyx]

Yawn. Excuse making from another footer. Been there, done that. Just curious, can bigfoot fly in the latest version of your story?

Wrong, he was put through the ringer by folks when he first came online and it's a touchy subject with him. You could stand to lighten up and be polite yourself.

[mikeyx]

You know nothing.

I think people like you are gasoline on the flame for people like John.

I dont believe him to be making it up as you are

1) Completely overlooking misidentification among other things
2) Attacking Kit on every other post

You really are not contributing JACK to this conversation

[WGBH]

They had no interest in trying to confirm their own theory such as looking for bear tracks in that area?

No, they had a deer to clean and dress. No they had no interest in my story, especially my friends father. In fact he screamed at me the entire time I was walking over there to look. Suffice it to say I did not spend much time looking.

[William Parcher]

Do you remain friends with these people to this day?

[Vortigern99]

WGBH, correct me if I'm off-base here, but it seems to me that several hours spent in isolation inside a cramped space, in an unfamiliar environment, while hungry and tired, can reasonably said to be a stressful situation. You say you don't specifically remember being stressed prior to your nausea and collapse, but isn't it at least possible that you did experience some stress inside the deer blind, which may have led or contributed to your nausea and collapse?

[WGBH]

Do you remain friends with these people to this day?

Absolutely not. It ruined my friendship. In fact, when my (ex) friend tried to embarass me about it in school later that year, I beat the crap out of him and got a suspension. They moved away 20 years ago anyway.

[WGBH]

WGBH, correct me if I'm off-base here, but it seems to me that several hours spent in isolation inside a cramped space, in an unfamiliar environment, while hungry and tired, can reasonably said to be a stressful situation. You say you don't specifically remember being stressed prior to your nausea and collapse, but isn't it at least possible that you did experience some stress inside the deer blind, which may have led or contributed to your nausea and collapse?

Sure it is possible. Unlikely, but possible.

[William Parcher]

So they are essentially unavailable to confirm or contradict your recollections from that day?

[atpeace]

JUST AN ASIDE:
For those lurking with encounters they’ve feared to post I have a comment with a hope for more posters.

There certainly are people who have unexpected things (bf related and other) happen to them every day that traumatize them and that they don‘t find the least bit funny. But for me, by and large by a landslide, the bf community/skeptic debate is composed of proponents actively seeking this creature, with woods/wildlife experience who smell ‘em, or hear ‘em, or see ‘em, with regularity. Who tout their “evidence” on public forums like it was inarguably sound and scientifically based, charge money to read their stories or experience an encounter, kick out the skeptics and ignore the skeptical questions, keep extremely questionable databases of sightings, among a host of other complaints. They are the ones that pollute encounters and they are the ones that yes, imo deserve ridicule. They pretty much ask for it with their insane methods and conclusions. I believe this also is a tactic to keep them in the spotlight.

And let’s face it, many of the liars and charlatans and storytellers are known and exposed. And as far as I am concerned are fair game.

On the other hand, I know some individuals personally who believe they have had sightings and the experience has traumatized them for various lengths of time yet, I have never attacked or made fun of their personal revelation to me and never will. I trust and respect them even if I find the possibility of said creature existing to be extremely looooooooooooooooow and :
-They hold on to their experience as a bf experience and for some reason won‘t let go of that for anything.
-I Believe other explanations might better explain what they witnessed
- Or, I am as completely baffled by what they describe as they are

However, they too (the ones I know who believe they have had an encounter) have absolutely no sympathy for the ones I described that make up the bulk of the encounter database and field reports and denounce their drivel vehemently and poke holes and fun at their claims constantly.

It is very rarely (imo an extremely small fraction of the entire bf phenomenon) about the personal revelations made by seemingly sane, sincere and real-live* individuals trying to make sense out of an experience (often an older experience) they’ve had but, when it is, I (and many others) do try to approach them differently, yet still skeptically and with lots of concerns and questions and “what about_______“.

But yes, sometimes sincere individuals will get slammed too, by not only by skeptics of bf’s existence but by those with encounters of their own too. It just goes with the territory. The evolution of the phenomenon itself has caused some sensitivity and some of the biggest “attackers” are the ones with their own encounters. They hit hard because they don’t want their experience made into the joke it has been by the fabricators and storytellers. In fact, I have heard them say the creature they sighted was not at all like the one so often (P/G influenced???) described. That interests me. I wish we’d hear more from them. Yes, it will be a little rough but I wish they’d speak up as bravely as WGBH.

ap

*Real-live as opposed to imaginary encounters experienced by fictitious characters and reported as having actually happened and been actually investigated Hey, word to the wise: you just cannot pass this stuff off on a generation of forum posters who can identify a person by their posts alone

[WGBH]

So they are essentially unavailable to confirm or contradict your recollections from that day?

Probably, I have no idea. I stoped interacting with them 5 years before they moved. I know thier names, but that is it.

[WGBH]

JUST AN ASIDE:
However, they too (the ones I know who believe they have had an encounter) have absolutely no sympathy for the ones I described that make up the bulk of the encounter database and field reports and denounce their drivel vehemently and poke holes and fun at their claims constantly.


Can I make that my signature line? :D I HATE HOAXERS

[William Parcher]

Tree, bush or brush, call it what you want. It was smaller then the pine trees and larger then the brush. It had large leaves and blue/purpleish berries.


Whatever the plant was, it was at least 9' tall - as you said the Bigfoot was reaching out and sometimes up for food, yes?

[Vortigern99]

Kit and Vort,

One major flaw I see in this theory.

I could smell that smell for about a day after the encounter. It seemed to be burned into my nostrils. I even tried to wash it out of my nose. Thoughts?

There are other flaws, but let's start with this one.

WGBH, we've addressed this question with explanations that olfactory distortion or enhancement is a known and documented element of the hallucinatory experience. We've provided links to medical, psychological and educational sites describing this.

With that established, what are the other "flaws" that you see in our theory that you experienced a hypnagogic (between sleep and wakefulness) or hypnopompic (post-waking) hallucination?

[WGBH]

Whatever the plant was, it was at least 9' tall - as you said the Bigfoot was reaching out and sometimes up for food, yes?

Correct.

[WGBH]

WGBH, we've addressed this question with explanations that olfactory distortion or enhancement is a known and documented element of the hallucinatory experience. We've provided links to medical, psychological and educational sites describing this.

With that established, what are the other "flaws" that you see in our theory that you experienced a hypnagogic (between sleep and wakefulness) or hypnopompic (post-waking) hallucination?

Occam's razor theory?

[Vortigern99]

Occam's razor -- the idea that the simplest explanation is preferred over more complicated solutions -- would dictate that a known and studied human phenomenon, namely hallucinations of the kind we've been discussing, are the simpler explanation than that a breeding population of massive bipeds with 5-foot shoulders has somehow gone unphotographed and unobserved by science while obtaining a daily intake of 9000 calories inside a populated area in the eastern US.

[William Parcher]

It was eating. It was eating berries and leaves. I could see it reach out, and it would grab a branch, and it stick the whole branch in its mouth and just pull it through its mouth and just strip everything off of it. Especially the leaves, it would pull them off of it.

John, was the Bigfoot tearing the branches off the 9' tall "brush" before mouth-stripping them, or did it strip them while still attached to the "brush"?

[WGBH]

John, was the Bigfoot tearing the branches off the 9' tall "brush" before mouth-stripping them, or did it strip them while still attached to the "brush"?

I saw it do both.

[WGBH]

Occam's razor -- the idea that the simplest explanation is preferred over more complicated solutions -- would dictate that a known and studied human phenomenon, namely hallucinations of the kind we've been discussing, are the simpler explanation than that a breeding population of massive bipeds with 5-foot shoulders has somehow gone unphotographed and unobserved by science while obtaining a daily intake of 9000 calories inside a populated area in the eastern US.

Sorry, could not resist. I love the responses to that statement. I do applaud you for not calling for my execution. :D

But no, the simple explanation in my view, would be I saw an undiscovered primate. So I guess we should agree to disagree on that. It is not the simple answer for myself to think I hallucinated and/or had sleep paralysis. For you to think that, fair enough. It's all about perspective.

[William Parcher]

John, when you walked over to look for the footprints - those recently-stripped branches were still there. Some were on the ground and some were 9' up on the brush. At the minimum, the ones that were 9' off the ground were good evidence that something quite odd had just happened there. The stripped branches on the ground beneath would be additional evidence that you could even pick up and take with you (kick yourself now as they likely were covered with dried saliva + DNA). You could have then showed your friends and asked them for their explanation of this.

Why did you not do this?

[SweatyYeti]

Here is an excerpt from the Blogsquatcher article, about John's sighting...


But he insists that bigfoot was the last thing on his mind that day. “The only experiences that I had about bigfoot was seeing them on TV, the Six Million Dollar Man, or something like that. I hadn’t really thought about it. I was still a kid. I just wasn’t something that interested me at that time,


John, before your sighting, had you ever read anything about (alleged) Bigfoot encounters?


I'm asking because you mentioned there was a 'strong odor', and I'm wondering if you had any knowledge of this aspect of Bigfoot sightings, ahead of time.

[WGBH]

John, when you walked over to look for the footprints - those recently-stripped branches were still there. Some were on the ground and some were 9' up on the brush. At the minimum, the ones that were 9' off the ground were good evidence that something quite odd had just happened there. The stripped branches on the ground beneath would be additional evidence that you could even pick up and take with you (kick yourself now as they likely were covered with dried saliva + DNA). You could have then showed your friends and asked them for their explanation of this.

Why did you not do this?

Because I was a scared kid that wanted to get out of there and I was getting screamed at by the cast of Deliverence holding a fresh deer kill.

Yes, If I knew then what I know now, I have no doubt I could have found at least some trace evidence. I carry around latex gloves and sterile tweezers in my back pack now. Yes, I do think about that missed chance.But what can I do now?

[William Parcher]

Did you see any of the stripped branches when you walked over there?

[WGBH]

Did you see any of the stripped branches when you walked over there?

I don't remember if I saw the stripped branches. I remember spending most of the time looking at the ground for footprints. I only glanced at the berry bush to see what is was eating and try to gauge how tall it was. I remember thinking that Bigfoot would leave footprints and I could show that to my friends so they would believe me.

[Vortigern99]

But no, the simple explanation in my view, would be I saw an undiscovered primate. So I guess we should agree to disagree on that. It is not the simple answer for myself to think I hallucinated and/or had sleep paralysis. For you to think that, fair enough. It's all about perspective.

This is a problem with Occam's Razor that I've encountered before. The person making the claim, a claim which is unsubstantiated except for their own verbal testimony, will almost always opine that their subjective viewpoint is the "simpler explanation" than any that could be put forth by science. It's a difficult hurdle to overcome.

WGBH, the simple fact is that hallucination is known, studied, verified and documented by numerous studies in laboratory settings. (Kit and I have provided several links to articles describing these studies.) The circumstances of your experience are consistent with the descriptions of hypnagogic and/or hypnopompic hallucinations given in numerous medical and psychological textbooks, websites, and papers. Even if we remove the term "sleep paralysis" from the table (despite your description of feeling "frozen... stuck there"), the aforementioned hallucinatory phenomena remain as entirely reasonable, likely, and even probable explanations.

Bigfoot is not a known, studied, verified or documented organism in any laboratory or scientific paper, beyond the purely speculative. There is no type specimen and no independently corroborated account of its existence.

Therefore, the simplest explanation of your sighting, especially given the hunger, lack of sleep, nausea, collapse, isolation, novel environment, and feelings of panic and danger that accompanied the experience, is that you had either a hypnagogic or hypnopompic hallucination.

If you have some concrete reason why this is not the simplest explanation, I would very much like to read it.

[William Parcher]

I tried to get them to come with me when I went to inspect the area where the animal had been standing, because I was so terrified. They wanted no part of it.

I remember thinking that Bigfoot would leave footprints and I could show that to my friends so they would believe me.


What would you have done if you did see what looked like Bigfoot footprints?

[makaya325]

Occam's razor -- the idea that the simplest explanation is preferred over more complicated solutions -- would dictate that a known and studied human phenomenon, namely hallucinations of the kind we've been discussing, are the simpler explanation than that a breeding population of massive bipeds with 5-foot shoulders has somehow gone unphotographed and unobserved by science while obtaining a daily intake of 9000 calories inside a populated area in the eastern US.

Eastern? I thought bigfoot was from the NorthWest?

[Vortigern99]

Are you kidding?

[makaya325]

Are you kidding?

You said the Eastern United States, Vort. The truth is that Bigfoot sightings, whether real or imaginary, tend to come more from the western part of the country.

[Vortigern99]

First, that isn't correct.

Second, we're talking about WGBH's sighting:

JC’s encounter occurred in Pasquotank County, North Carolina, near the river that lends the county its name.

ETA: Map of BF sightings in NA:

http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14097&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1243708566

ETA2: Thanks, Parcher! Ya beat me to it, and I was stealing your map anyway. ;)

[William Parcher]

The truth is that Bigfoot sightings, whether real or imaginary, tend to come more from the western part of the country.

Hello.

[WGBH]

This is a problem with Occam's Razor that I've encountered before. The person making the claim, a claim which is unsubstantiated except for their own verbal testimony, will almost always opine that their subjective viewpoint is the "simpler explanation" than any that could be put forth by science. It's a difficult hurdle to overcome.

WGBH, the simple fact is that hallucination is known, studied, verified and documented by numerous studies in laboratory settings. (Kit and I have provided several links to articles describing these studies.) The circumstances of your experience are consistent with the descriptions of hypnagogic and/or hypnopompic hallucinations given in numerous medical and psychological textbooks, websites, and papers. Even if we remove the term "sleep paralysis" from the table (despite your description of feeling "frozen... stuck there"), the aforementioned hallucinatory phenomena remain as entirely reasonable, likely, and even probable explanations.

Bigfoot is not a known, studied, verified or documented organism in any laboratory or scientific paper, beyond the purely speculative. There is no type specimen and no independently corroborated account of its existence.

Therefore, the simplest explanation of your sighting, especially given the hunger, lack of sleep, nausea, collapse, isolation, novel environment, and feelings of panic and danger that accompanied the experience, is that you had either a hypnagogic or hypnopompic hallucination.

If you have some concrete reason why this is not the simplest explanation, I would very much like to read it.

Vort,
That is a impressive and thoughtful argument. I actually find your theory does intrigue me and I will keep a open mind to your ideas about what happened to me. Can you do the same for me?

"Bigfoot is not a known, studied, verified or documented organism in any laboratory or scientific paper, beyond the purely speculative. There is no type specimen and no independently corroborated account of its existence.:"

Some of us are working on this problem, it would be nice if we had more help and less criticism.

[WGBH]

What would you have done if you did see what looked like Bigfoot footprints?

I would have screamed "Look you stupid rednecks Bigfoot left a print!".

[WGBH]

Here is an excerpt from the Blogsquatcher article, about John's sighting...





John, before your sighting, had you ever read anything about (alleged) Bigfoot encounters?


I'm asking because you mentioned there was a 'strong odor', and I'm wondering if you had any knowledge of this aspect of Bigfoot sightings, ahead of time.


Nope, I only saw Andre the Giant fight Lee Majors on TV.

[William Parcher]

I would have screamed "Look you stupid rednecks Bigfoot left a print!".

So in your opinion, in spite of their screaming ridicule and refusal to go take a look - screaming that ridiculing statement at them would have brought them over?

[makaya325]

First, that isn't correct.

Second, we're talking about WGBH's sighting:

JC’s encounter occurred in Pasquotank County, North Carolina, near the river that lends the county its name.

ETA: Map of BF sightings in NA:

http://forums.randi.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14097&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1243708566

ETA2: Thanks, Parcher! Ya beat me to it, and I was stealing your map anyway. ;)


When you think of bigfoot, you would assume that its population would mainly settle in the Pacific northwestern united states

[Correa Neto]

Would you?
Why?

[William Parcher]

When you think of bigfoot, you would assume that its population would mainly settle in the Pacific northwestern united states


Because Bigfoot does not fancy the East. Those who somehow found themselves there headed to the PNW.



So they loaded up the truck and they moved to Bluffy
Creek that is
Dense forests
Sand bars.


http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w310/william_parcher/6090c3da.jpg

[WGBH]

So in your opinion, in spite of their screaming ridicule and refusal to go take a look - screaming that ridiculing statement at them would have brought them over?

I would like to hope it would. But I have no idea.

[William Parcher]

If instead you had found what appeared to be bear tracks, would it have caused you to have any doubts about what you saw (Bigfoot)?

[xblade]

Sorry, could not resist. I love the responses to that statement. I do applaud you for not calling for my execution. :D

But no, the simple explanation in my view, would be I saw an undiscovered primate. So I guess we should agree to disagree on that. It is not the simple answer for myself to think I hallucinated and/or had sleep paralysis. For you to think that, fair enough. It's all about perspective.

It's not about what you want the simplest explanation to be, or feel it should be. If that were the standard, seizures would be the result of demon possessions.

I have thought about the theory that I might have had some type of seizure. My only question would be, Why only then? I have never had another one BEFORE or SINCE that day. But who knows? maybe

Why not? You wouldn't be the first person to experience isolated incidents of seizure.

[xblade]

Wrong, he was put through the ringer by folks when he first came online and it's a touchy subject with him. You could stand to lighten up and be polite yourself.

I also have a yawn for you.

*Yawn*.....

[William Parcher]

Occam's Razor cannot tell you if any hypothesis is factual. Folks will always disagree on what constitutes the more "simple" explanation. The razor is most properly used to prepare the hypothesis for peer review. Reduce your hypothesis to its simplest form without removing neccessities. Then launch it to see how she floats.

Facts about the world aren't decided upon by their simplicity. It requires producing evidence to support their factuality.

[xblade]

Occam's Razor cannot tell you if any hypothesis is factual. Folks will always disagree on what constitutes the more "simple" explanation. The razor is most properly used to prepare the hypothesis for peer review. Reduce your hypothesis to its simplest form without removing neccessities. Then launch it to see how she floats.

Facts about the world aren't decided upon by their simplicity. It requires producing evidence to support their factuality.

Never said it could tell you if anything is factual, actual, or real. And of course people will disagree on what's the more simple explanation.....people will disagree on pretty much every issue.

[Vortigern99]

When you think of bigfoot, you would assume that its population would mainly settle in the Pacific northwestern united states

So, while following the wonderful world of bigfoot over the last, say, six-to-eight months, have you not chanced upon mentions of Virginia sightings (discussed by new member wvbig in the "simple question" thread), Oklahoma sightings (discussed at length in numerous MABRC-related threads), Texas sightings (discussed in conjunction with Oklahoma sightings) and Georgia sightings (discussed by the entire BF community from August of last year to just the other day, when a new body was reported found by the selfsame admitted hoaxers)?

Are you even paying attention to the subject you claim to be studying?

[Archangel]

If nobody else could smell anything (after they all settled down) then there was no real smell.

What? that makes no sense at all.

1) He was out in the woods, there's a phenomena sometimes called a breeze. You may have heard of it.

2) Breezes are known to dissipate smells.
Try this eat nothing but eggs for 48 hours and let off a massive fart in an enclosed room.
Most likely your nostrils will be burning with that smell for at least a few hours, but if you open the door the smell will dissipate in a few minutes at most, thanks to the breeze that you've allowed in.

According to your hypothesis if someone entered the room 20 mins later and could not smell your eggy fart, you imagined farting and smelling it?

****
*Note:
I don't think there's enough evidence to say exactly what happened to WGBH, though i personally doubt it was a bigfoot.

I do think though that it is ridiculous to discount his olfactory sense as a hallucination based on what someone could or could not smell a while later in an open area.

[Vortigern99]

Archangel, if you're familiar with breezes, you might also explain how such an intense odor can have arrived at the recipient's nostrils from fifty yards -- half the length of an American football field -- away.

[SweatyYeti]

Archangel, if you're familiar with breezes, you might also explain how such an intense odor can have arrived at the recipient's nostrils from fifty yards -- half the length of an American football field -- away.



What's even harder to explain is how John 'hallucinated' a very strong odor....an extremely common aspect of (alleged) Bigfoot sightings...when he had no prior knowledge of this trait of Bigfoot...


WGBH wrote:


SweatyYeti wrote:


John, before your sighting, had you ever read anything about (alleged) Bigfoot encounters?


I'm asking because you mentioned there was a 'strong odor', and I'm wondering if you had any knowledge of this aspect of Bigfoot sightings, ahead of time.



Nope, I only saw Andre the Giant fight Lee Majors on TV.


That seems...(to me, anyway)....to put a pretty large 'dent' in the Hallucination Explanation.

[Vortigern99]

As has been stated, with links, in this thread several times, olfactory distortion/enhancement is a known, studied and verified element of hallucinatory experiences. Burning smells and rotting, foul odors are among the most frequently reported of such hallucinations.

That others have had similar hallucinations is not evidence that such illusions exist in objective reality.

Once again I ask anyone to explain how so intense an odor, if real, could have emanated from a creature fifty yards away and reached the claimant's nostrils with such intensity. The physics of this event, especially given Archangel's aforementioned breezes, would seem to be preposterous.

[WGBH]

Archangel, if you're familiar with breezes, you might also explain how such an intense odor can have arrived at the recipient's nostrils from fifty yards -- half the length of an American football field -- away.

Who said the odor emanated from 50 yards away? That is where I saw the animal. The odor occurred 5 mins or more before I had the sighting. It could have been coming from behind me for all I know.

[LTC8K6]

You can smell a skunk's spray a good distance and there's no doubt what you are smelling.

[dafydd]

Of course WGBH could be making it all up.Without a decent photo or other concrete evidence this discussion is a monumental waste of time and bandwidth.Save it for when we're all sitting aound a campfire.

[clayflingythingy]

WGBH,

How do you feel about your sighting today?

Do you wish it never happened to you?

Has it made you a "better" or "stronger" person?

If you had it to do over again would you relive the experience?

[WGBH]

You can smell a skunk's spray a good distance and there's no doubt what you are smelling.

It was not a skunk spray. Totally different odor.

[WGBH]

Of course WGBH could be making it all up.Without a decent photo or other concrete evidence this discussion is a monumental waste of time and bandwidth.Save it for when we're all sitting aound a campfire.

No, the monumental waste of time is that you felt the need to drive by and post that. Oh, and a waste of bandwidth.

[WGBH]

WGBH,

How do you feel about your sighting today?

Do you wish it never happened to you?

Has it made you a "better" or "stronger" person?

If you had it to do over again would you relive the experience?

I feel the need to know what happened.

Yes

No

Hell No

[Vortigern99]

Who said the odor emanated from 50 yards away? That is where I saw the animal. The odor occurred 5 mins or more before I had the sighting. It could have been coming from behind me for all I know.

Okay, then for that matter, the smell -- if it was objectively real and not hallucinatory -- might have come from some other animal or object, living or dead. Since the odor preceded your sighting by several minutes, and since the animal you saw was fifty yards away, logically we cannot draw a direct connection between the animal and the odor you detected.

If the odor derived from the animal as it passed, unseen, beneath your deer blind, we have to explain how the odor filled the blind so fully that the smell lingered for hours, even though your friends made no mention of the odor.

We must also consider the possibility that the odor, if it was objectively real, derived from some nearby refuse heap, decaying animal carcass or other as-yet-unguessed-at source. You might be drawing a connection between two unrelated events.

[dafydd]

No, the monumental waste of time is that you felt the need to drive by and post that. Oh, and a waste of bandwidth.

You could be a total fantasist who actually believes the things he makes up,or just a liar,a hoaxer,an attention seeker.You could have experienced an hallucination.I have never met you,I know nothing about you.Any of the above could be true,or there could be other reasons.But you did not see a Bigfoot. I don't drive by,I park here quite a lot.Anyway,if you are not telling a campfire story,what are you doing? Do you have any concrete evidence?

[WGBH]

You could be a total fantasist who actually believes the things he makes up,or just a liar,a hoaxer,an attention seeker.You could have experienced an hallucination.I have never met you,I know nothing about you.Any of the above could be true,or there could be other reasons.But you did not see a Bigfoot. I don't drive by,I park here quite a lot.Anyway,if you are not telling a campfire story,what are you doing? Do you have any concrete evidence?

No I have no evidence. We were only having a discussion. Well, I seem to have worn out my welcome. It happens a lot. It was nice talking to a few of you.

Thanks