Application Proposal: 2 miracles by Jehovah performed in USS Liberty attack by Israel

[david carmichael]

On a message board that ...ahem..."debunkkkkkks" so many things

We have 3 miracles performed by Jehovah God himself(I think Jehovah performed it himself although I admit that I don't have physical possession of Jehovah's "angelic duty roster" for the day of June 8, 1967 or 9/11 WTC attack)



MIRACLE SURROUNDING 9/11 WTC attack--- "intelligent thermite" formation from its "core constituents"

The debunkerzzzzz on JREF have made such a "big deal" about declaring victory


The "intelligent thermite" guys.... We need to know why someone felt the need to advance the "intelligent thermite" thesis IN THE FIRST PLACE as regards the 9/11 WTC attack



Of course, the US Government wouldn't cover up the murder of their own countrymen on 9/11.


Nor would the US Government and our....ahemm.... valuuuuuuuuuuuable ....ahemmmm...allyyyyyyy in the war on terror......

...... DOCTOR EVIDENCE surrounding the murder of 34 US servicemen in the USS Liberty attack....


Again, if someone is taking a photographic snapshot of James Randi standing in front of a pepsi machine.... the resulting developed snapshot will not show thePepsi machine...

...because James Randi is NOT transparent.



MIRACLE #1-USS Liberty attack

a)Since the USS Liberty did NOT have a transparent mast when it left Rota, Spain...

b)...and since our valuable ally in the war on terror would never lie... just like 9/11 WTC attacks

c)..and since our government would not lie about the murders of Americans... just like the 9/11 WTC attacks


Then there should be a portion of the wheelhouse/superstructure in the photo below that would be obscured by USS Liberty's Mast...

It is OBVIOUS Jehovah God himself intervened and miraculously made the ship's mast transparent during the attack....



It is either a "miracle" by Jehovah orrrrr...

...the murderers doctored evidence.

http://usslibertyinquiry.com/essays/guncameraparts.html











MIRACLE #2-USS Liberty attack

The other photo below proves...

The USS Liberty was not attacked on June 8, 1967 in the Eastern Mediterranean... Jehovah God teleported the USS Liberty through both "time" and "space"...

...to a couple of months later AND at Norfolk, Virginia where the attacking Miirage Jet Fighters(note the starry-shaped gun sight reticule superimposed/doctored)...

...where a flotilla of toot-toot little tugboats joined in the attack...



Otherwise Israel doctored a SECOND photo...

...never mind the doctored IDF Ground Controller transcripts.

http://usslibertyinquiry.com/essays/guncameracristol.html






So... having stated the above... we'll get back to the topic of why it was felt necessary to introduce the topic of "intelligent thermite" creation in the first place

[Carnivore]

Happy New Year! Starting as you mean to go on eh?

[Morwen]

Huh?!

[david carmichael]

Happy New Year! Starting as you mean to go on eh?

Happy New Year, Carnivore.

[david carmichael]

Happy New Year! Starting as you mean to go on eh?

Happy New Year again, Carnivore....

Your sub-moniker states you are a "thinker"


Think that was a miracle by Jehovah God or do you think Israel doctored evidence?

[Dumb All Over]

May I say what I think? I think you are spamming the Million Dollar Challenge section. If, within your very next post here, you can't convince me that you have a claim for the prize and have intentions for submitting an application, I will ask that this thread be moved.

[Dumb All Over]

OK. I see the Mods have already moved it. Dang, you Mods are on top of things. This has got to be the best moderated forum of any. Thanks Moderators.

[david carmichael]

May I say what I think? I think you are spamming the Million Dollar Challenge section. If, within your very next post here, you can't convince me that you have a claim for the prize and have intentions for submitting an application, I will ask that this thread be moved.


Of course, you may say what you think, DAO....

On a forum where you take such glee claiming you have debunked the 9/11 conspiracy theories...



So what do you think, DAO????

Was that a miracle performed by Jehovah God or whichever one of his subordinate's name was at the top of the "angelic duty roster" that day????


Or did Israel doctor evidence used to explain the murders of 34 US Servicemen?

...here you have photographic PROOF of doctored evidence used to explain the murders of your fellow countrymen

[Gravy]

David, did you forget that you already posted your "evidence" in this subforum a few days ago? And did you forget that it was met with a collective yawn?

Also, do you enjoy Coco-Puffs?

[Loss Leader]

I don't get it. Is it satire? Is it irony? Is it serious?

I just ... I don't get it.

[The Doc]

David...

I'm not trying to insult you so please hear me out. Please format your posts by using distinguishable paragraphs, correct grammar and spelling and avoid using multiple question marks at the end of your sentences.

If you fail to do so, people will read the first sentence and assume you are crazy or stupid because of the way you write.

You may want to also consider avoiding calling everyone here "carnivore". That will get you no where.

[Dumb All Over]

So what do you think, DAO????


Mr. Carmichael,

You seem to have me confused with someone who has discarded logic and reasoned thought.

I think I'm going to have a bowl Froot Loops and discern truth from the patterns the floating loopy-loops make on the surface of the milk.

DAO

[T.A.M.]

It seems a new years invasion of people "just asking questions" has occured.

TAM

[Horatius]

MIRACLE SURROUNDING 9/11 WTC attack--- "intelligent thermite" formation from its "core constituents"

The debunkerzzzzz on JREF have made such a "big deal" about declaring victory


The "intelligent thermite" guys.... We need to know why someone felt the need to advance the "intelligent thermite" thesis IN THE FIRST PLACE as regards the 9/11 WTC attack



You do realize the "intelligent thermite" was a strawman argument created by a CTist, right? (http://gordonssite.tripod.com/id4.html)

So why should we address this? It's your team that's making the ridiculous claim.

As for the rest, go back to the other thread, where I explained blurry photos.

[Mr. Skinny]

David...

If you fail to do so, people will read the first sentence and assume you are crazy or stupid because of the way you write.

.
Agree.

Can someone explain what this thread is about? All I can make out is that it has something to do with the USS Liberty.

[Horatius]

Agree.

Can someone explain what this thread is about? All I can make out is that it has something to do with the USS Liberty.

It's another "They doctored the fuzzy photos for no apparent reason, therefore 9/11 was an inside job" thread, with a glazing of "intelligent thermite".

[T.A.M.]

So how about those Pittsburgh Penguins. Great Hockey Team. Anyone wanna comment on this.

lol

TAM

[Garb]

So how about those Pittsburgh Penguins. Great Hockey Team. Anyone wanna comment on this.

lol

TAM

Crosby is overrated.



Debunked.

[T.A.M.]

A little premature to call him overrated. If you look at his pre-NHL stats, and how long he has been in the big leagues...

Debunked back...lol

TAM

[Garb]

A little premature to call him overrated. If you look at his pre-NHL stats, and how long he has been in the big leagues...

Debunked back...lol

TAM

Come on, it only takes common sense to realize how overrated he is.


All you need to do is look at this:http://www.newyorkrangers.cz/images/PIT%207.11.05%20Crosby.jpg


Anyone who hasn't been hypnotized by the Canadians would realize it from the photo.

[WildCat]

And yet, here is the USS Liberty in the Mediterranean the next day... mast and all!


http://home.mindspring.com/~turniton/COTC/liberty.jpg

[T.A.M.]

Photoss, shmotos...show me one legitimate expert opinion who says he is overrated...lol

TAM

[GzuzKryzt]

...
...ahem..."debunkkkkkks"
...
debunkerzzzzz
...
....ahemm.... valuuuuuuuuuuuable ....ahemmmm...allyyyyyyy
...

Is this representative of the content presented in this forum?

[Bell]

*BUMP*

[WildCat]

The USS Liberty murders annihilates the foundational thesis/motif of UK_Dave's TLA Award-Winning post;to wit,....

...that it is crackpot to believe the Democrats/Republicans and News Media would ALL conspire to cover up the murder of Americans.


False Flag Ops are not easy to bust when the Governments in charge of investigating/preserving evidence ARE THEMSELVES the perpetrators...

But it wasn't covered up! Everyone knows about it. And many, many people are on record of speaking out about the inadequate explanations given for the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty.
Such as (http://www.ussliberty.org/):
"I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous "
-- US Secretary of State Dean Rusk

"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty."
-- CIA Director Richard Helms

"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."
-- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby

"That the Liberty could have been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir is unbelievable"
-- Special Assistant to the President Clark Clifford, in his report to President Lyndon Johnson

"The highest officials of the [Johnson] administration, including the President, believed it 'inconceivable' that Israel's 'skilled' defense forces could have committed such a gross error."
-- Lyndon Johnson's biographer Robert Dallek in Flawed Giant, Oxford University Press, 1998, pp. 430-31)


"A nice whitewash for a group of ignorant, stupid and inept [expletive deleted]."
-- Handwritten note of August 26, 1967, by NSA Deputy Director Louis W. Tordella reacting to the Israeli court decision exonerating Israelis of blame for the Liberty attack.

"Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers.
-- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor

"The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack...was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew.... It was our shared belief. . .that the attack. . .could not possibly have been an accident.... I am certain that the Israeli pilots [and] their superiors. . .were well aware that the ship was American."
-- Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, US Navy (retired), senior legal counsel to the US Navy Court of Inquiry

That the attack was deliberate "just wasn't a disputed issue" within the National Security Agency
-- Former NSA Director retired Army Lieutenant General William Odom on 3 March 2003 in an interview for Naval Institute Proceedings

Former NSA/CIA Director Admiral Bobby Inman "flatly rejected" the Cristol/Israeli claims that the attack was an accident
-- 5 March 2003 interview for Naval Institute Proceedings

Of four former NSA/CIA seniors with inside knowledge, none was aware of any agency official who dissented from the position that the attack was deliberate
-- David Walsh, writing in Naval Institute Proceedings

"It appears to me that it was not a pure case of mistaken identity."
-- Captain William L. McGonagle, Commanding Officer, USS Liberty, speaking at Arlington National Cemetery, June 8, 1997

"To suggest that they [the IDF] couldn't identify the ship is ... ridiculous. ... Anybody who could not identify the Liberty could not tell the difference between the White House and the Washington Monument."
-- Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chief of Naval Operations and later Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, quoted in The Washington Post, June 15, 1991, p. 14

Now, where are the whistleblowers for the 9/11 attacks? Your own USS Liberty example shows that members of the military and the NSA will not keep quiet about the deaths of 34 servicemen. Yet you think they will keep quiet about the deaths of nearly 3,000 innocent civilians?

[david carmichael]

David, did you forget that you already posted your "evidence" in this subforum a few days ago? And did you forget that it was met with a collective yawn?

Also, do you enjoy Coco-Puffs?


Indeed, I DO like Coco-Puffs!!!! in fact, I'm cuckoo for Coco-Puffs...

...and you could ONLY have ascertained that "telepathically" using the Vulcan Mind Meld.

Okay, Vulcan...you win the $1,000,000

[david carmichael]

David...

I'm not trying to insult you so please hear me out. Please format your posts by using distinguishable paragraphs, correct grammar and spelling and avoid using multiple question marks at the end of your sentences.

If you fail to do so, people will read the first sentence and assume you are crazy or stupid because of the way you write.

Ohhh...so it is because of my postinggggzzz that i'm considered BOTH "crazy" or "stupid"!

Thank gawwwddd for that!.. I thought you had been talking to siblings or close family friends... my mistake.



You may want to also consider avoiding calling everyone here "carnivore". That will get you no where.

I was only replying to Carnivore

[Bell]

David, those are some nice cropped pictures. Do you have a link to the whole picture?

[david carmichael]

Mr. Carmichael,

You seem to have me confused with someone who has discarded logic and reasoned thought.

I think I'm going to have a bowl Froot Loops and discern truth from the patterns the floating loopy-loops make on the surface of the milk.

DAO


You use "crunchberries"(when they are in season)...not fruit loops

[david carmichael]

You do realize the "intelligent thermite" was a strawman argument created by a CTist, right? (http://gordonssite.tripod.com/id4.html)

So why should we address this? It's your team that's making the ridiculous claim.

As for the rest, go back to the other thread, where I explained blurry photos.

Was it Greening or Ross who advanced the "intelligent thermite" thesis...

Ross may have coined the "phrase" to describe Greening's assertions.

R Mackey implies Greening advanced the thesis behind Ross's naming convention by stating Greening has sufficiently dealt with Ross....

Anyhow, what necessitated Greening advancing a thesis that Ross ended up calling "intelligent thermite"?

[Gravy]

Now, where are the whistleblowers for the 9/11 attacks? Your own USS Liberty example shows that members of the military and the NSA will not keep quiet about the deaths of 34 servicemen. Yet you think they will keep quiet about the deaths of nearly 3,000 innocent civilians?I have quoted WildCat's fine post in the hope that Mr. Carmichael will address it.

[Gravy]

Anyhow, what necessitated Greening advancing a thesis that Ross ended up calling "intelligent thermite"?You seem to want to have two identical threads going. Please don't do that. You have USS Liberty issues to address.

[david carmichael]

David, those are some nice cropped pictures. Do you have a link to the whole picture?


The links are from the usslibertyinquiry. com site and I've seen p. 79 of Cristol's book.

http://usslibertyinquiry.com/essays/guncameracristol.html


http://usslibertyinquiry.com/essays/guncameraparts.html











AOL Hometown, I believe has some Hebrew lettering above the IDF History Report.


http://hometown.aol.com/libertyincident/JEJMpage3.html



The seminal issue is the missing deckhouse and unobscured portion of the wheelhouse super structure...

Is there something in the uncropped version that is going to answer that????

I didn't think so... so why advance a specious argument implying "intellectual dishonesty" WHEN you know you are going to evade discussion of what portion of the wheelhouse/superstructure should be obscured by the USS liberty's mast?

....and are those sailors leisurely standing at the fore of the boat during a starfing run???

..and is that a "tugboat-shaped sea serpent"?




I did not know they were cropped... was the cropping done for "economy of space" or "intellectual dishonesty"????

[david carmichael]

I have quoted WildCat's fine post in the hope that Mr. Carmichael will address it.


....and with all those whistleblowers...what is the official position of the US Government and the Government of Israel?

It is still "mistaken identity"



Have any administration officials whistleblown... didn't someone reference a you-tube thing with Danny Bonaduce being treated rudely by some idiot named John Connor?



John Connor's actions were TOTALLY inappropriate...


.. but did that US Administration official state what was purportedly stated?..

...did that German Government official state what was purportedly stated?


..did that US Star Wars guy state what was purportedly stated?

..did Operation:Northwoods state what was purportedly stated????

--yes;i've seen the GWU.EDU DoD archives myself


IN FOX NEWS's subsequent interview with Danny Bonaduce did John Gibson ask him at all about...

1)Operation: Northwoods
2)That German Government guy
3)That US Administartion official?
4)That Star Wars Bojangle guy

No... seems some coverage should be devoted to those topics also...

What I have witnessed is USS Liberty stories ...not being "killed"... but "journalistically spiked".

So again, did the Government of Israel doctor 2 photos used to explain away the murders of 34 American soldiers????


and

..what was it that necessitated Greening advancing a thesis that Gordon Ross later labeled, "intelligent thermite"?

[david carmichael]

But it wasn't covered up! Everyone knows about it. And many, many people are on record of speaking out about the inadequate explanations given for the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty.
Such as (http://www.ussliberty.org/):

Now, where are the whistleblowers for the 9/11 attacks? Your own USS Liberty example shows that members of the military and the NSA will not keep quiet about the deaths of 34 servicemen. Yet you think they will keep quiet about the deaths of nearly 3,000 innocent civilians?


...also, these people waited MANY years before they came out and whistleblew

.. to my mind, the only TWO people who took immediate action were Cyrus Vance(resigned from 303 Committee on day after attack...6/9/1967... )

...and Richard Helms-- (ordered Taylor to conduct CIA Board of Inquiry).

Neither of them whistleblew at the time.

[david carmichael]

You seem to want to have two identical threads going. Please don't do that. You have USS Liberty issues to address.

The USS Liberty murders show the US Government/News Media/Democrats/Republicans willing to cover up the murder of Americans.

The connection to 9/11 remains, particularly in light of UK_Dave's TLA Award-winning post ridiculing those CTers who would make EXACTLY that assertion.


Admit that the USS Liberty attack coverup annihilates the foundational thesis of UK_Dave's post and we can proceed with the "intelligent thermite" discussion.

[Gravy]

The USS Liberty murders show the US Government/News Media/Democrats/Republicans willing to cover up the murder of Americans.HOW WAS THE ATTACK COVERED UP BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT?

[Bell]

The links are from the usslibertyinquiry. com site and I've seen p. 79 of Cristol's book.

http://usslibertyinquiry.com/essays/guncameracristol.html

http://usslibertyinquiry.com/essays/guncameraparts.html

AOL Hometown, I believe has some Hebrew lettering above the IDF History Report.

http://hometown.aol.com/libertyincident/JEJMpage3.html

The seminal issue is the missing deckhouse and unobscured portion of the wheelhouse super structure...

Is there something in the uncropped version that is going to answer that????

I didn't think so... so why advance a specious argument implying "intellectual dishonesty" WHEN you know you are going to evade discussion of what portion of the wheelhouse/superstructure should be obscured by the USS liberty's mast?

....and are those sailors leisurely standing at the fore of the boat during a starfing run???

..and is that a "tugboat-shaped sea serpent"?

I did not know they were cropped... was the cropping done for "economy of space" or "intellectual dishonesty"????

I conclude the image must have been cropped on the sides atleast, since AFAIK these kind of images are allways landscape format (longer side along the horizon).

And it is quite important wether the picture is cropped or not. How big showed the USS Liberty on the original picture, did it fill the whole frame, or was it far away? Small/thin details can fade away if it was far away. Also what was the resolution of the camera? Did it use traditional film or were the images taped? All important to know before starting on about doctored photo's.

And btw, what the heck is a "tugboat-shaped sea serpent"?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Soe_Orm_1555.jpg/800px-Soe_Orm_1555.jpg

[david carmichael]

HOW WAS THE ATTACK COVERED UP BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT?


You mean covered up by the Democrats/Republicans/News Media, correct?


1)Seizure of evidence

2)Doctoring of Naval Court of Inquiry transcript

3)Seizure of transcript from JAG officer tasked to find evidentiary basis for NCOI's finding of "mistaken identity"

4)Suppression of findings of CIA Board of Inquiry, NSA findings, etc.


5)US News Media not sticking Watergate-like to story till truth came out.

Are those 2 photos doctored, Gravy?

[WildCat]

...also, these people waited MANY years before they came out and whistleblew

.. to my mind, the only TWO people who took immediate action were Cyrus Vance(resigned from 303 Committee on day after attack...6/9/1967... )

...and Richard Helms-- (ordered Taylor to conduct CIA Board of Inquiry).

Neither of them whistleblew at the time.
Wrong. Once again:
"A nice whitewash for a group of ignorant, stupid and inept [expletive deleted]."
-- Handwritten note of August 26, 1967, by NSA Deputy Director Louis W. Tordella reacting to the Israeli court decision exonerating Israelis of blame for the Liberty attack.

[Gravy]

The links are from the usslibertyinquiry. com site and I've seen p. 79 of Cristol's book.
http://usslibertyinquiry.com/essays/guncameracristol.html
http://usslibertyinquiry.com/essays/guncameraparts.htmlYou already posted those links. Several times. What you should have said is, "No, I don't have links to uncropped photos."

AOL Hometown, I believe has some Hebrew lettering above the IDF History Report.
http://hometown.aol.com/libertyincident/JEJMpage3.htmlHighly suspicious. It's not as if the report of the Israeli planes attacking the ship would ever be read by a Hebrew speaker.

I did not know they were cropped... You didn't? You know of cameras that take pictures with those aspect ratios? What cameras were used? If you don't know these things, what sort of photo analyst are you?

[Gravy]

You mean covered up by the Democrats/Republicans/News Media, correct?

1)Seizure of evidence

2)Doctoring of Naval Court of Inquiry transcript

3)Seizure of transcript from JAG officer tasked to find evidentiary basis for NCOI's finding of "mistaken identity"

4)Suppression of findings of CIA Board of Inquiry, NSA findings, etc.

5)US News Media not sticking Watergate-like to story till truth came out.

Are those 2 photos doctored, Gravy?Please provide specific sources for your claims.

[WildCat]

You mean covered up by the Democrats/Republicans/News Media, correct?


1)Seizure of evidence

2)Doctoring of Naval Court of Inquiry transcript

3)Seizure of transcript from JAG officer tasked to find evidentiary basis for NCOI's finding of "mistaken identity"

4)Suppression of findings of CIA Board of Inquiry, NSA findings, etc.


5)US News Media not sticking Watergate-like to story till truth came out.

Are those 2 photos doctored, Gravy?
The USS Liberty incident was hardly a big story for the media. You may recall that there was a conflict involving the US in SE Asia at the time. An attack on a spy ship was hardly the news of the day.

I've already stated that the official story of mistaken identity is simply a diplomatic nicety. Hardly a cover-up, since the entire world knows that it was fired on by the Israelis and that 34 deaths resulted.

Now this has what, exactly, to do w/ 9/11?

[david carmichael]

I conclude the image must have been cropped on the sides atleast, since AFAIK these kind of images are allways landscape format (longer side along the horizon).

And it is quite important wether the picture is cropped or not. How big showed the USS Liberty on the original picture, did it fill the whole frame, or was it far away? Small/thin details can fade away if it was far away. Also what was the resolution of the camera? Did it use traditional film or were the images taped? All important to know before starting on about doctored photo's.

And btw, what the heck is a "tugboat-shaped sea serpent"?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/Soe_Orm_1555.jpg/800px-Soe_Orm_1555.jpg


...well, then let's break it down to its simplest elements.



The GOI/IDF themselves produced the pictures.

The GOI/IDF attempted to make it look like a photographic negative by turning the "contrast setting" to "high maximum"... why?




I don't mind looking fo a needle in a haystack AS LONG AS one does not ignore the elephant standing right next to him.



The attacking Mirage Fighters had left the scene before the Motor Torpedo Boats arrived...

1)..there should be no picture of a boat in that photo
2)..there should be NO crew personnel standing at the fore of the boat during a strafing run

The one photo is not the USS Liberty...it is NOT even a Victory-Hull type ship

The other photo is not a ship being attacked in the Eastern Med.


The blurring of the photos was intentional.

...and they were used to explain away the murders of 34 American soldiers

[david carmichael]

The USS Liberty incident was hardly a big story for the media. You may recall that there was a conflict involving the US in SE Asia at the time. An attack on a spy ship was hardly the news of the day.

I've already stated that the official story of mistaken identity is simply a diplomatic nicety. Hardly a cover-up, since the entire world knows that it was fired on by the Israelis and that 34 deaths resulted.

Now this has what, exactly, to do w/ 9/11?

If it was truly an accident then it was not a "big story"...

If it was "intentional murder'--- it was an "act of war" and a huge story... you know that;you're foot-draging in an attempt to wear me out

..since the "mistaken identity" thesis stunk right from the get-go...

..the US News Media knew this was murder.

We had Watergate coverage while the Vietnam war was going on... that didn't stop Watergate from being exposed

[david carmichael]

Now this has what, exactly, to do w/ 9/11?

It annihilates the foundational thesis of UK_Dave's TLA Award-winning post that..

Democrats
Republicans and
News Media

..would all conspire to cover up the murder of Americans

[david carmichael]

Please provide specific sources for your claims.

I'd be glad to... the very instant that you admit the Government of Israel doctored two photos to explain away the murder of 34 American soldiers.

you're engaging in foot-dragging... i'm familiar with this technique by pro-Zionists

[Mr. Skinny]

..there should be no picture of a boat in that photo
2)..there should be NO crew personnel standing at the fore of the boat during a strafing run


Are you saying that there should be no crew on the deck of a ship that is being attacked?

[WildCat]

If it was truly an accident then it was not a "big story"...

If it was "intentional murder'--- it was an "act of war" and a huge story... you know that;you're foot-draging in an attempt to wear me out
No, it was not a huge story. It was overshadowed by the events in Vietnam. It may have been an "act of war", but the US apparently decided to let go of the matter and move on. Definitely not a result satisfactory to the victims, but apparently one that the gov't decided was in the best interests of the United States.

..since the "mistaken identity" thesis stunk right from the get-go...
I haven't argued this point w/ you at all. I do believe it was intentional, the Israelis may have suspected that the US was passing on Israeli military communications to the Egyptians. Which was not an implausible scenario at the time.

..the US News Media knew this was murder.

We had Watergate coverage while the Vietnam war was going on... that didn't stop Watergate from being exposed
Criminal acts emanating from the White House is going to be a huge story no matter what else is going on.

[david carmichael]

You already posted those links. Several times. What you should have said is, "No, I don't have links to uncropped photos."

No, I don't have links to uncropped photos IF INDEED those are uncropped photos.

I've seen the photos on p. 79 of pro-Zionist Cristol's book... nothing of substance is ommited as it pertains to the tugboat or those sailors standing at the fore of the boat during a strafing run



Highly suspicious. It's not as if the report of the Israeli planes attacking the ship would ever be read by a Hebrew speaker.

The AOL Hometown site is the product of pro-Zionist Mike Weeks where the hebrew lettering occurs



You didn't? You know of cameras that take pictures with those aspect ratios? What cameras were used? If you don't know these things, what sort of photo analyst are you?

I'm no photo analayst... one does not need to be a photo analyst for all but the more advanced topics, i'd assume.


..but that is clearly the PORT side of the USS Liberty in the Thames/Cristol phot provided by the IDF

..it is NOT the STARBOARD side as they maintain.

The "contrast setting" has been set to "high maximum" to make it appear as a "photographic negative"

..I'm glad you have the expertise to comment about "aspect ratios"

Pro-Zionist, Theodore Bell, fled from the photographic expertise he CLEARLY displayed when asked about

1)What features of the ship would be more clearly highlighted by turning up the contrast to "high maximum"

and

2) What portion of the wheelhouse would be obscured by the mast? ("there's not enogh informationnnnnn"--

Theodore...you're right--there's not enough information about the mast BUT too much information about the wheelhouse/superstructure)

[WildCat]

I'd be glad to... the very instant that you admit the Government of Israel doctored two photos to explain away the murder of 34 American soldiers.
They were sailors, and frankly the evidence that they were doctored is inconclusive at best.

you're engaging in foot-dragging... i'm familiar with this technique by pro-Zionists
What does this have to do w/ Zionism?

[Bell]

...well, then let's break it down to its simplest elements.

The GOI/IDF themselves produced the pictures.

Which does not proof we are looking at the complete picture. I can take a picture of my car from 100 feet away, crop it so that the car fills the entire frame and present you that picture.

The GOI/IDF attempted to make it look like a photographic negative by turning the "contrast setting" to "high maximum"... why?

I still don't know what medium was used to store these pictures (which I asume is from a filmed sequence, not still pictures) Why do you conclude the IDF attempted to make it look like a negative? Did they say it was a photographic negative? How about poor reproduction techniques?

I don't mind looking fo a needle in a haystack AS LONG AS one does not ignore the elephant standing right next to him.

Yup... :confused:

The attacking Mirage Fighters had left the scene before the Motor Torpedo Boats arrived...

1)..there should be no picture of a boat in that photo
2)..there should be NO crew personnel standing at the fore of the boat during a strafing run

If you view that white splash as a tugboat, then there's something seriously wrong with your photo analysis skill. But don't worry, help is at hand. Help for example by saying there is no way you can tell personel is standing at the front of the boat, not from such a grainy picture.

The one photo is not the USS Liberty...it is NOT even a Victory-Hull type ship

I allready commented on your poor photo analysis.

The other photo is not a ship being attacked in the Eastern Med.

You can tell from that picture in what sea it was sailing? Incredible! :eek:

The blurring of the photos was intentional.

Or due to low resolution/graininess.

...and they were used to explain away the murders of 34 American soldiers

Accidentaly killing.

[david carmichael]

No, it was not a huge story. It was overshadowed by the events in Vietnam. It may have been an "act of war", but the US apparently decided to let go of the matter and move on. Definitely not a result satisfactory to the victims, but apparently one that the gov't decided was in the best interests of the United States.


I haven't argued this point w/ you at all. I do believe it was intentional, the Israelis may have suspected that the US was passing on Israeli communications to the Egyptians. Which was not an implausible scenario at the time.


Criminal acts emanating from the White House is going to be a huge story no matter what else is going on.

Bwaaahaa! LOL!

You've taken a dump.

Then the Israelis and US Government in the intervening years should have as much as admitted the rationale for murder...

..but now that you've acknowledged as much of their evil as existed.... then the US Government and Israel would not have been precluded from an equally conspiratorial gesture as 9/11

..which annihilates the thesis of UK_Dave's TLA Award winning post

The murder of Americans by an ally in an attempt to blame another foreign power IS NOT a big story???

[david carmichael]

Are you saying that there should be no crew on the deck of a ship that is being attacked?

Not at the fore leaning over the guardrail leisurely...

Is that a photo of a ship being attacked in the Eastern Med?

[uk_dave]

Crikey!

Remind me not to write any more award winning posts for fear of annihilation by weirdos.

lol

[Gravy]

The GOI/IDF themselves produced the pictures.Who should have produced them? The Salvation Army? That's a serious question. Please respond.

The GOI/IDF attempted to make it look like a photographic negative by turning the "contrast setting" to "high maximum"... why?Provide your evidence of deliberate deception. Since you've apparently been at this for a while, you'll have no problem backing your claims with evidence, right?

1)..there should be no picture of a boat in that photo
2)..there should be NO crew personnel standing at the fore of the boat during a strafing runYou're seeing what you want to see in a blurry, indistinct photo. See?

The one photo is not the USS Liberty...it is NOT even a Victory-Hull type ship The other photo is not a ship being attacked in the Eastern Med.Your obviously inexpert opinion carries no weight here.

The blurring of the photos was intentional.Perhaps it was. How do you intend to prove this?

[david carmichael]

Which does not proof we are looking at the complete picture. I can take a picture of my car from 100 feet away, crop it so that the car fills the entire frame and present you that picture.



I still don't know what medium was used to store these pictures (which I asume is from a filmed sequence, not still pictures) Why do you conclude the IDF attempted to make it look like a negative? Did they say it was a photographic negative? How about poor reproduction techniques?



Yup... :confused:



If you view that white splash as a tugboat, then there's something seriously wrong with your photo analysis skill. But don't worry, help is at hand. Help for example by saying there is no way you can tell personel is standing at the front of the boat, not from such a grainy picture.



I allready commented on your poor photo analysis.



You can tell from that picture in what sea it was sailing? Incredible! :eek:



Or due to low resolution/graininess.



Accidentaly killing.

So who did the cropping then?

The GOI and IDF... you're also neglecting to do the photo comparison from a photo taken moments before OR moments after the doctored IDF photo.

The tension cable extending from the tugboat wheelhouse to the fantail in both photos.

You're foot-dragging in an attempt to wear me out, old chum...an old pro-Zionist trick

[david carmichael]

They were sailors, and frankly the evidence that they were doctored is inconclusive at best.

[/B]
What does this have to do w/ Zionism?

Then you should be able to point out what portion of the wheelhouse superstructure is obscured by the USS Liberty's mast in the IDF History Report of 1982

...and why that tugboat "tension cable" is visible in both the Norfolk, Va. photo AND the IDF photo.


There should be NO man-made object(boat) in that "gun camera" photo... The Mirage Fighters had left before the MTBs had arrived.

They are both doctored photos

[david carmichael]

Who should have produced them? The Salvation Army? That's a serious question. Please respond.

The people who produced them were probably the ones who cropped them..the GOI and IDF



Provide your evidence of deliberate deception. Since you've apparently been at this for a while, you'll have no problem backing your claims with evidence, right?

You're seeing what you want to see in a blurry, indistinct photo. See?

The tension cable extending from the tugboat wheelhouse to fantail in both photos taken moments apart


I'm also NOT seeing what I should be seeing... a portion of the wheelhouse/superstructure that should be obscured by the mast



Your obviously inexpert opinion carries no weight here.

One does not need to be a photographic expert to know that if I take a photgraphic snapshot of James Randi standing in front of a Pepsi machine... the Pepsi machine will be obscured by Randi's body.

There should be a portion of the wheelhouse/superstructure obscured by the mast..it is a doctored photo therefore



Perhaps it was. How do you intend to prove this?

Simple... the photo by Israel claims to show the PORT side... it is actually the STARBOARD side


.

[Bell]

So who did the cropping then?

The GOI and IDF...

So what? I asked for the uncropped photo's, you said the IDF supplied the photo's, I question if they could be cropped before being presented. What's your point?

you're also neglecting to do the photo comparison from a photo taken moments before OR moments after the doctored IDF photo.

You are quite skilled, please tell me what I have to look for?

The tension cable extending from the tugboat wheelhouse to the fantail in both photos.

What? Where?

You're foot-dragging in an attempt to wear me out, old chum...an old pro-Zionist trick

I'm trying to clarify what we can see or not see in those pictures of such quality.

[WildCat]

Bwaaahaa! LOL!

You've taken a dump.

Then the Israelis and US Government in the intervening years should have as much as admitted the rationale for murder...
Hardly, the US still closely guards secrets dating back to WWII. The ship was a spy ship, obviously was spying on Israel during a war. The US will not admit this, then or now. And the US may well have been passing on Israeli military communications to the Egyptians, as a favor to try to keep them from becoming a Soviet client state. Needless to say, coming clean on the mission of the Liberty could prove quite embarrassing. The "accident" explanation gives both sides an out.

..but now that you've acknowledged as much of their evil as existed.... then the US Government and Israel would not have been precluded from an equally conspiratorial gesture as 9/11
Equally?! You have got to be kidding! Nobody ever denied that the Israelis killed the sailors. It was not in any way, shape, or form a "false flag" attack. It is not similar to the 9/11 attacks in scope, scale, type, or any other way.

..which annihilates the thesis of UK_Dave's TLA Award winning post
Nope, UK_Dave's post still stands unblemished from your silly attempt to draw comparisons between the USS Liberty incident and the 9/11 attacks.

The murder of Americans by an ally in an attempt to blame another foreign power IS NOT a big story???
Relations between the US and Israel were far different back then, I doubt they were considered an "ally" by the Johnson administration. Would a spy ship be dispatched to spy on an ally? IIRC a story I once heard long ago, the CIA may have even tipped off the Egyptians of the Israeli plan for a pre-emptive strike on Egypt in the 1967 war. Lucky for the Israelis the Egyptians didn't trust the CIA tip.

[Gravy]

The people who produced them were probably the ones who cropped them..the GOI and IDFThis is much like your "dancing Israelis/Mossad" claim. I have no problem believing that Israel released the worst of what should have been hundreds of gun camera frames, or even doctored those photos in some way. But you can't prove that.

What doesn't make any sense is the idea of altering the photo to remove the ship's mast. NO ONE DISPUTES THAT ISRAEL ATTACKED THE LIBERTY. Israel didn't claim after the fact that it wasn't their planes. I could see them obscuring details, such as lettering and flags, that would show it to be a U.S. ship, or simply blurring the whole image.

Again, rather than attempting the absolutely absurd deception you think they tried, they could simply have not released any photos. "Sorry, the gun camera wasn't working." See?

And please drop this whole "tugboat" business. It's silly and insulting to the intelligence of rational people.

[babazaroni]

The two photos in Cristol's book that were intended to show that the second was a smudged version of the first and could not be from the IAF gun-camara.

However, if you look at how the forward antenna mast intersects the bridge you will see that the photos were taken at different angles.

http://usslibertyinquiry.com/essays/guncameracristol.html

The article notes this as well.

How could someone write a book with this as proof?

Edit: I suppose the claim is that a very similar photo from the same series was used. But the article points out a few other features that show the two photos were not taken around the same time. The bow wave for example.

[Loss Leader]

How much of this nonsense is just apolitical anti-semitism? I get a strong whif of it when I stand downwind of a certain poster above.

[david carmichael]

How much of this nonsense is just apolitical anti-semitism? I get a strong whif of it when I stand downwind of a certain poster above.

Then you should have absolutely no problem in dealing with the facts severed from any "antisemitism" you claim exists...


..to wit;point out what portion of the wheelhouse/superstructure is obscured by the mast of the USS Liberty.

You seem incapable of distinguishing "anti-zionism" from "antisemitism".

You don't see many anti-zionist jews on "meet the press"...

The News Media does not want the masses to know that "anti-Zionist jews" do exist.... and they're not all Hassidic Jews who are "anti-zionist"


...so again.... the portion of the wheelhouse/superstructure that is obscured by the mast of the USS Liberty... point it out.



...and what was it that necessitated Greening advancing an "intelligent thermite" thesis in the first place.

speak, debunkers!...speak!

[david carmichael]

This is much like your "dancing Israelis/Mossad" claim. I have no problem believing that Israel released the worst of what should have been hundreds of gun camera frames, or even doctored those photos in some way. But you can't prove that.

What doesn't make any sense is the idea of altering the photo to remove the ship's mast.


You're a debunker? With diminished cognitive skills like that????

The ship without the mast in the 1982 IDF History Report is not the USS Liberty, as the GOI claims... It is not even a victory-hull type ship.

Neither I nor anyone else has claimed the mast was removed.






NO ONE DISPUTES THAT ISRAEL ATTACKED THE LIBERTY. Israel didn't claim after the fact that it wasn't their planes. I could see them obscuring details, such as lettering and flags, that would show it to be a U.S. ship, or simply blurring the whole image.

Again, rather than attempting the absolutely absurd deception you think they tried, they could simply have not released any photos. "Sorry, the gun camera wasn't working." See?

And please drop this whole "tugboat" business. It's silly and insulting to the intelligence of rational people.


The tugboat tension cable is visible in BOTH the purported "gun camera" photo and the comparison photo taken a few moments later/earlier.

Israel blurred a Norfolk, Va naval yard photo and now they're busted...

... the tugboat motif does not insult anyone's intelligence.

It proves now that Israel, for some unknown reason, has chosen NOT to present genuine gun-camera photos...and doctored up TWO other photos instead.

Then there is the fantasy "30mm cannon shell with proximity fusing" munition Israel claimed to have used.


...the lie about the MTBs targeting the USS Liberty with radar... only would have given a crude distance... they would STILL have had to sight stadiametrically...

...which means they would have computed for the known length of the El Quesir.

First shell fired for targeting....spotter would report it fell way short of target...

...second shell fired.... again...falls way short of target


...at that point they would have reported to their captain that they were firing at something other than the El Quesir...something MUCH larger and not any of the known ships in the Egyptian Fleet

[david carmichael]

You're a debunker? With diminished cognitive skills like that????

The ship without the mast in the 1982 IDF History Report is not the USS Liberty, as the GOI claims... It is not even a victory-hull type ship.

Neither I nor anyone else has claimed the mast was removed.








The tugboat tension cable is visible in BOTH the purported "gun camera" photo and the comparison photo taken a few moments later/earlier.

Israel blurred a Norfolk, Va naval yard photo and now they're busted...

... the tugboat motif does not insult anyone's intelligence.

It proves now that Israel, for some unknown reason, has chosen NOT to present genuine gun-camera photos...and doctored up TWO other photos instead.

Then there is the fantasy "30mm cannon shell with proximity fusing" munition Israel claimed to have used.


...the lie about the MTBs targeting the USS Liberty with radar... only would have given a crude distance... they would STILL have had to sight stadiametrically...

...which means they would have computed for the known length of the El Quesir.

First shell fired for targeting....spotter would report it fell way short of target...

...second shell fired.... again...falls way short of target


...at that point they would have reported to their captain that they were firing at something other than the El Quesir...something MUCH larger and not any of the known ships in the Egyptian Fleet

The flying of the US Flag meant nothing...that huge moon bounce antenna....

..much larger and of much more miltary significance would have provided positive ID that it was not an Egyptian ship.

Had Egypt had such an advanced ship...it would have been a Day One priority target known to every Israeli pilot and would have been tagged for capture...

..not destruction

As stated by USAF Fighter Pilot, Bruce Charles..."The pilots knew they were murdering Americans as did the MTBs that followed"


What was it that necessitated Greening advancing an "intelligent thermite" thesis in the first place?

[Larry Lovage]

I don't understand - did the Israeli's release a faked "gun camera" photo which was actually a doctored version of the official portrait photograph of the ship, or was it a photo of a different ship that didn't have a mast? Because it can't be both.

[Larry Lovage]

As stated by USAF Fighter Pilot, Bruce Charles..."The pilots knew they were murdering Americans as did the MTBs that followed"Since that appears to have been the opinions of many people up to President Johnson, I'm not sure why you are re-emphasising something that everybody agrees with.

[Loss Leader]

I am utterly lost. Israel admitted firing on the Liberty but claimed it was an accident. The US accepted this explanation publicly but privately let it be known that they didn't think it was an accident. Almost everybody involved believes the Liberty was spying on Israel. There is also little question that the US was giving intelligence to Egypt. There is good reason to believe that information gathered by the Liberty would be turned over to Egypt.

So, what exactly is your argument? If Israel doctored photos, it didn't work because the US believed then and believes now that the Liberty wasn't an accident. And it's clear that the US and Israeli governments were satisfied to just let the whole thing be called an accident for diplomatic reasons. So why is it so important to you to prove that Israel doctored photos? What is it that you believe this says about anything?

I'm as lost as I was after the OP.

[David Wong]

I am utterly lost. Israel admitted firing on the Liberty but claimed it was an accident. The US accepted this explanation publicly but privately let it be known that they didn't think it was an accident. Almost everybody involved believes the Liberty was spying on Israel. There is also little question that the US was giving intelligence to Egypt. There is good reason to believe that information gathered by the Liberty would be turned over to Egypt.

So, what exactly is your argument? If Israel doctored photos, it didn't work because the US believed then and believes now that the Liberty wasn't an accident. And it's clear that the US and Israeli governments were satisfied to just let the whole thing be called an accident for diplomatic reasons. So why is it so important to you to prove that Israel doctored photos? What is it that you believe this says about anything?

I'm as lost as I was after the OP.

And what does this have to do with intelligent thermite?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

david carmichael,

Are you unable, or just unwilling, to format your posts in a manner that is readable? As it stands, they are only slightly more readable than, the now banned, RemoveBush's posts.

[Gravy]

Now he's posting in colors. That will convince us. Goodbye, David, and good luck with your troubles.

[JimBenArm]

I've been meaning to ask; is it some new CT rule that you have to format your post to be as unreadable as possible? I suppose this could be to disguise the fact that there is nothing but gibberish inside. I don't know, however, as I have refused to attempt to read any of them since about the fifth post by RemovedBrain.

[Horatius]

I've been meaning to ask; is it some new CT rule that you have to format your post to be as unreadable as possible? I suppose this could be to disguise the fact that there is nothing but gibberish inside. I don't know, however, as I have refused to attempt to read any of them since about the fifth post by RemovedBrain.

I think it's symptomatic of their complete inability to form a coherent argument, or stick to a topic.

Basically the typing equivalent of some homeless guy ranting on a streetcorner.

I mean, if you seriously wanted to convince someone to believe something that goes against the norm, wouldn't you at least try to structure your thoughts in a reasonable manner? Or at least to give a brief rundown of what it is you believe? I suspect he is trying, and simply failing miserably at it. Wherever he is, he's probably scratching his head, wondering why we haven't all declared our conversion yet.

[JimBenArm]

I think it's symptomatic of their complete inability to form a coherent argument, or stick to a topic.

Basically the typing equivalent of some homeless guy ranting on a streetcorner.

I mean, if you seriously wanted to convince someone to believe something that goes against the norm, wouldn't you at least try to structure your thoughts in a reasonable manner? Or at least to give a brief rundown of what it is you believe? I suspect he is trying, and simply failing miserably at it. Wherever he is, he's probably scratching his head, wondering why we haven't all declared our conversion yet.

Yeah, but even Christophera, as nutty as he is, at least attempts to do some formatting. I can read his stuff. Still doesn't make sense half the time, but it is at least somewhat readable!

[Larry Lovage]

I hate to do this, but amongst the signs of a total whackjob are referring to the Supreme Being as "Jehovah God" instead of just "God".

[Horatius]

I hate to do this, but amongst the signs of a total whackjob are referring to the Supreme Being as "Jehovah God" instead of just "God".

I thought he was just emphasising that it was a Jewish miracle that created those photos....

[Horatius]

Yeah, but even Christophera, as nutty as he is, at least attempts to do some formatting. I can read his stuff. Still doesn't make sense half the time, but it is at least somewhat readable!

Well, it's not a universal trait. But it certainly does seem to apply here.

[ktesibios]

How much of this nonsense is just apolitical anti-semitism? I get a strong whif of it when I stand downwind of a certain poster above.

Well, the multiple references to individuals as "pro-Zionist so-and-so" do give off a certain odor of eau de hatefreaque. So does the fact that he seems to have no specific message save "Jews Israelis Zionists are bad people".

I have a simple diagnostic test for hatefreakery. You simply replace all references in the document in question to the targeted group with "Jew", "Jews" or "Jewish" as grammatically appropriate. If the result reads like it was scraped off the composing room floor at Der Stuermer, the test is positive. Try it on some of DC's rantings and see what you get.

I hate to do this, but amongst the signs of a total whackjob are referring to the Supreme Being as "Jehovah God" instead of just "God".

So are strings of talking-to-oneself, "and foithermore" posts. I don't know why, but they all seem to do it.

ETA: Hey, multiquote works! Far out.

[Loss Leader]

I have a simple diagnostic test for hatefreakery. You simply replace all references in the document in question to the targeted group with "Jew", "Jews" or "Jewish" as grammatically appropriate. If the result reads like it was scraped off the composing room floor at Der Stuermer, the test is positive. Try it on some of DC's rantings and see what you get.

My father, who was instrumental in gaining civil rights for individuals with disabilities, used to tell politicians to replace "disabled" with "black." If the position of the opponent seemed racist, you knew it was discriminatory. A letter for a homeowners association might include the line, "This neighborhood is already crowded with the disabled, a group home for more disabiled would overburden us." Translation: "This neighborhood is already crowded with blacks, allowing a home for more blacks would overburden us."

It's a powerful way of detecting discrimination.

[Darth Rotor]

And yet, here is the USS Liberty in the Mediterranean the next day... mast and all!


http://home.mindspring.com/~turniton/COTC/liberty.jpg
OK, who photoshopped in that H-2 over the bow of the Liberty?

DR

[WildCat]

I am utterly lost. Israel admitted firing on the Liberty but claimed it was an accident. The US accepted this explanation publicly but privately let it be known that they didn't think it was an accident. Almost everybody involved believes the Liberty was spying on Israel. There is also little question that the US was giving intelligence to Egypt. There is good reason to believe that information gathered by the Liberty would be turned over to Egypt.

So, what exactly is your argument? If Israel doctored photos, it didn't work because the US believed then and believes now that the Liberty wasn't an accident. And it's clear that the US and Israeli governments were satisfied to just let the whole thing be called an accident for diplomatic reasons. So why is it so important to you to prove that Israel doctored photos? What is it that you believe this says about anything?

I'm as lost as I was after the OP.
My feelings exactly, but better said.

[WildCat]

OK, who photoshopped in that H-2 over the bow of the Liberty?

DR
OMFG!!!!1 it's the same one taht was flying over teh WTC on 9/11!1!!!1111

[hellaeon]

Major rant




Come on David, your engaging in dribbling, a pro CT technique designed to try avoiding providing proof or answers to questions! Stay on track....

[Falcon Apoda]

Pro-Zionist, Theodore Bell, fled from the photographic expertise he CLEARLY displayed when asked about...Just as crazy as you ever were, I see.

"Theodore Bell" fled from nothing. The fact is that neither you nor anyone else is/was able to prove any of this gibberish regarding the gun camera photos. In any event, and as someone else has pointed out, Israel had no reason to fake anything, having already admitted that they attacked the American ship.

All of this is nothing more than a fantasy, designed to give Israel the appearance of impropriety.

[thaiboxerken]

David, have you discussed you evidence and revelations with a psychologist yet?

[uk_dave]

David, have you discussed you evidence and revelations with a psychologist yet?


Don't be silly, dontcha know all psychologists are in on it too? :D

[Falcon Apoda]

I am utterly lost. Israel admitted firing on the Liberty but claimed it was an accident. The US accepted this explanation publicly but privately let it be known that they didn't think it was an accident.The official position of the USG is that the attack was a case of mistaken identity. This is supported by the bulk of the evidence, and it is a conclusion shared by the US Navy Court of Inquiry which took sworn testimony from many of the ship's officers.

Almost everybody involved believes the Liberty was spying on Israel. There is also little question that the US was giving intelligence to Egypt. There is good reason to believe that information gathered by the Liberty would be turned over to Egypt.In fact, there is little evidence for this whatsoever.

So, what exactly is your argument? If Israel doctored photos, it didn't work because the US believed then and believes now that the Liberty wasn't an accident.The US believed then and believes now that the attack was a case of mistaken identity. Israel admitted to its involvement within minutes of the attack's conclusion.

The "argument" of nutters such as dc is simply to paint Israel with the very appearance of impropriety. In other words, if can successfully be argued that they "doctored" these attack photos, then it can be supposed that they similarly manufactured other evidence which supports that the attack was the result of mistaken identity... like, say, the transcripts of UHF communications between the attacking pilots and their controllers which clearly illustrate their confusion and their orders to break off the attack.

So the USS Liberty CTs poured over every photo of the ship in existence until they found one which most-closely matched the Israeli gun-camera pictures. They then circled all of these supposedly similar "artifacts" and wrote up a Web page which, in essence, concludes, "If they made up these pictures, then they also made up God-knows-what-else! And innocent people don't make stuff up!"

And it's clear that the US and Israeli governments were satisfied to just let the whole thing be called an accident for diplomatic reasons.No... they let it be called an accident because that's clearly what it was. Whether Israel should have been held criminally negligent in their actions is another matter. But the attack was not intended upon a vessel which was known to be American.

So why is it so important to you to prove that Israel doctored photos? What is it that you believe this says about anything?dc is a nutbar, pure and simple. He would argue that the Israelis had a hand in committing the 9/11 attacks by virtue of the notion that the Mossad team which planted the explosive charges in WTC allowed themselves to get caught in Mrs. Kravitz's binoculars as they high-fived each other on a nearby rooftop.

[gumboot]

I only have one thing to add.

WTF?

-Gumboot

[Larry Lovage]

Now that's what I call a government shill! :D

[Zep]

DC and Christophera MUST have a get-together. It would be a meeting of the (non)minds, I expect.

[david carmichael]

I don't understand - did the Israeli's release a faked "gun camera" photo which was actually a doctored version of the official portrait photograph of the ship, or was it a photo of a different ship that didn't have a mast? Because it can't be both.


In the 1982 IDF History Report of 1982, the picture released by the Government of Israel is not the USS Liberty... it is NOT EVEN a Victory-hull type ship.

That is why they blurred the photo


In the Thames Television(London, UK)/Cristol("The Liberty Incident"..page 79) the photo is INDEED the USS Liberty....

1)..but the Government of Israel AGAIN blurred the photo

2)..turned the "contrast setting" up to "high maximum" to ATTEMPT TO deceive the readers that what they were viewing was a "photographic negative"

The photo was NOT taken from an attacking Mirage Fighter Jet in the Eastern Mediterranean...

...comparison with the other photo taken at NEARLY the same time shows the Israelis used a photo of the USS Liberty returning to Norfolk a few months later.




I knew when I came to this forum, that certain pro-Zionist individuals would behave as they in fact did.

I needed to make the connection between the evil of those who did this deed....

...and how this evil is STILL IN the US and Israeli government elite...

..as well as being QUITE ALIVE on a board of so-called debunkers.

The conduct engaged in by many of you was EXACTLY what I was looking to document.

[uk_dave]

So to summarise your...ummmmm theory, the Isrealis attacked a US ship and neither the US, Isreal or the worlds media attempted to cover up this attack or deny that it occured, but you believe that the blurry picture the israelis released of the attack was a fake because it was taken at a similar angle to one taken previously when the ship was docking (a bit like taking a picture of a building from two slightly different angles and then claiming one is a doctored image of the other....but nevermind) and that this, therefore, means the israelis are hiding something, though you have not the faintest idea what that something could possibly be?

Correct?

If so then I am in awe of your brain and would like to see it preserved in a jar....as soon as possible :D

[david carmichael]

Since that appears to have been the opinions of many people up to President Johnson, I'm not sure why you are re-emphasising something that everybody agrees with.

Just read this thread an you'll see the "denial monkeys".

It was an act of war...It was the use of this nation's top defense secrecy classification to coverup "murder"

Convention of the CIA Board of Inquiry implies a rogue operation within the CIA and White House... senior officers of the USS Liberty state an attack would most likely have been dealt with by an "analysis" or "paper"

Something "internal" occurred within the CIA... there was also a US Sub that failed to come to the Liberty's aid as is required by the Military Code of Conduct.

The US Government is STILL lying to the citizenry they are subordinate to

The book, "The Liberty Incident", is a work of treason.


The seminal issue is , "What informed choice could the US voters have at the ballot box as of June 9, 1967 forward due to the conduct of the US News Media, Democrats and Republicans?....

...what month/year have things changed since 1967 AS EVIDENCED by the arrest/prosecution of these individuals within the US and Israeli Governments and News Media?

There is no constitutional RIGHT granted to any individual that falls outside of "obeying illegal orders" in contravention of the Uniform Code of Military Conduct.

[david carmichael]

I am utterly lost. Israel admitted firing on the Liberty but claimed it was an accident. The US accepted this explanation publicly but privately let it be known that they didn't think it was an accident. Almost everybody involved believes the Liberty was spying on Israel. There is also little question that the US was giving intelligence to Egypt. There is good reason to believe that information gathered by the Liberty would be turned over to Egypt.

So, what exactly is your argument? If Israel doctored photos, it didn't work because the US believed then and believes now that the Liberty wasn't an accident. And it's clear that the US and Israeli governments were satisfied to just let the whole thing be called an accident for diplomatic reasons. So why is it so important to you to prove that Israel doctored photos? What is it that you believe this says about anything?

I'm as lost as I was after the OP.

No...the USS Liberty was not giving evidence to Egypt. That is a lie being put forward by some of the same people who have been telling lies about everything else...

..and now being put forward by someone like YOU.


Who is the subset of individuals you identified a s"almost everybody"... see---that is a little "card trick" that James Randi is so famous for debunking...

...and now YOU YOURSELF are attempting to employ it.


pssssst.... and I'm very glad you did

[JimBenArm]

Just read this thread an you'll see the "denial monkeys".

It was an act of war...It was the use of this nation's top defense secrecy classification to coverup "murder"

Convention of the CIA Board of Inquiry implies a rogue operation within the CIA and White House... senior officers of the USS Liberty state an attack would most likely have been dealt with by an "analysis" or "paper"

Something "internal" occurred within the CIA... there was also a US Sub that failed to come to the Liberty's aid as is required by the Military Code of Conduct.

OK, right there, you expose your total ignorance. The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) does not cover this. That is a total command decision, made by the ship's captain and his superiors. Furthermore, what sub are you talking about? I'd like to know, because I can find out in a heartbeat if this is true.

The US Government is STILL lying to the citizenry they are subordinate to

The book, "The Liberty Incident", is a work of treason.


The seminal issue is , "What informed choice could the US voters have at the ballot box as of June 9, 1967 forward due to the conduct of the US News Media, Democrats and Republicans?....

Erm, we vote on the news media? OK. Whatever you say. Was I supposed to pick between the Kansas City Star and the LA Times?

...what month/year have things changed since 1967 AS EVIDENCED by the arrest/prosecution of these individuals within the US and Israeli Governments and News Media?

On what charges? That they are "Zionists" or "JOOOOS!!!!1111!!!"?

There is no constitutional RIGHT granted to any individual that falls outside of "obeying illegal orders" in contravention of the Uniform Code of Military Conduct.

Again, it's the UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE, and I must say:

Pardon, your ignorance is showing!

Don't go away mad, Mr. Anti-Semite! Just go away!

[david carmichael]

And what does this have to do with intelligent thermite?

The foundational thesis of the TLA Award winning post by UK_Dave was that the US Government, News Media and BOTH Democrats and Republicans would never conspire to cover up the murder of 34 American soldiers.

This annihilates that thesis.

So I'm wondering why Greening felt the need to advance an "intelligent thermite" thesis in the first place?

I'm looking to catch the US Government/News Media in ANY lie...

...when the people charged with investigating/preserving the evidence ARE THE criminals themselves...

...one must look for lies SINCE THE evidence has been placed outside their reach

[david carmichael]

david carmichael,

Are you unable, or just unwilling, to format your posts in a manner that is readable? As it stands, they are only slightly more readable than, the now banned, RemoveBush's posts.


NOTE TO READERSHIP: Arkan is attempting to make a linkage that someone named RemoveBush was banned becuase his posts were unreadable.

I think the MODs banned him for some other conduct.

Who in the readership or MODs did you think that would fool, Arkan?

You think you're capable of masterminding the MODs into doing something they'd not normally do???

You're that much more clever than them?

[JimBenArm]

NOTE TO READERSHIP: Arkan is attempting to make a linkage that someone named RemoveBush was banned becuase his posts were unreadable.

I think the MODs banned him for some other conduct.

Who in the readership or MODs did you think that would fool, Arkan?

You think you're capable of masterminding the MODs into doing something they'd not normally do???

You're that much more clever than them?

No, but he is much more clever than you. Maybe not as entertaining, but infinitely more clever.

[david carmichael]

I've been meaning to ask; is it some new CT rule that you have to format your post to be as unreadable as possible? I suppose this could be to disguise the fact that there is nothing but gibberish inside. I don't know, however, as I have refused to attempt to read any of them since about the fifth post by RemovedBrain.

Ahhh...what is unreadable about asking you to point out what portion of the wheelhouse/superstructure is obscured by the mast of what is purported to be the USS Liberty in the IDF History Report of 1982?

Your submoniker states you are a "critical thinker", JimBenArm.

Do some "critical thinking" then and tell the MODs why you feel no one has answered that question.

[JimBenArm]

Ahhh...what is unreadable about asking you to point out what portion of the wheelhouse/superstructure is obscured by the mast of what is purported to be the USS Liberty in the IDF History Report of 1982?

Did you ask me, personally, to do that? I'm not qualified. I know nothing about photo analysis, unlike the fevered voices in your head that are experts on everything.

I realize that this is an extreme request, and that the Zionists have incapacitated your ability to use a mouse properly, but you could try, you know.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

NOTE TO READERSHIP: Arkan is attempting to make a linkage that someone named RemoveBush was banned becuase his posts were unreadable.

I think the MODs banned him for some other conduct.

Who in the readership or MODs did you think that would fool, Arkan?

You think you're capable of masterminding the MODs into doing something they'd not normally do???

You're that much more clever than them?
It's a comparison; not unlike saying, "My glass is a very similar tone of blue to Bob's shoes." Now, howabout addressing the point of my post instead of sidestepping; are you unabled, or just unwilling, to format your posts in a manner that is easily readable?

[david carmichael]

I think it's symptomatic of their complete inability to form a coherent argument, or stick to a topic.

Basically the typing equivalent of some homeless guy ranting on a streetcorner.

I mean, if you seriously wanted to convince someone to believe something that goes against the norm, wouldn't you at least try to structure your thoughts in a reasonable manner? Or at least to give a brief rundown of what it is you believe? I suspect he is trying, and simply failing miserably at it. Wherever he is, he's probably scratching his head, wondering why we haven't all declared our conversion yet.

I disagree with the "unreadable post" motif.

..but stated simply, "what portion of the wheelhouse/superstructure is obscured by the mast....

... in what is purported to be a gun camera photo of the USS Liberty in the 1982 IDF History Report?

...and point the MODs to any of the OCTers who have answered that question.

What was it that necessitated Greening feeling he had to advance an "intelligent thermite" thesis in the first place?

[david carmichael]

I hate to do this, but amongst the signs of a total whackjob are referring to the Supreme Being as "Jehovah God" instead of just "God".

Well it must have been a miracle by Jehovah God, buddy!

Israel would never lie

Therefore, I 'd get a million $$$ for proving a miracle by Jehovah God.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Ahhh...what is unreadable about asking you to point out what portion of the wheelhouse/superstructure is obscured by the mast of what is purported to be the USS Liberty in the IDF History Report of 1982?
What is (almost entirely) unreadable, is your formatting.

Your submoniker states you are a "critical thinker", JimBenArm. Do some "critical thinking" then
1) No true Scotsman fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman)
2)
http://forums.randi.org/images/forummanual/18postlayout1.png
http://forums.randi.org/images/forummanual/3.pngThe member name of the poster, along with his title. The title is either assigned based on the number of posts the member has made, or it is a custom title requested by the member. If you click on the member name, you'll get a drop-down menu of useful actions, including viewing his public profile, sending him a private message, adding him to your ignore list, etc. Bolding mine. The "Critical Thinker" title falls under the "number of posts" clause.

and tell the MODs why you feel no one has answered that question.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Well it must have been a miracle by Jehovah God, buddy!

Israel would never lie

Therefore, I 'd get a million $$$ for proving a miracle by Jehovah God.
There is no Jehovah God.

[david carmichael]

I think it's symptomatic of their complete inability to form a coherent argument, or stick to a topic.

Basically the typing equivalent of some homeless guy ranting on a streetcorner.

I mean, if you seriously wanted to convince someone to believe something that goes against the norm, wouldn't you at least try to structure your thoughts in a reasonable manner? Or at least to give a brief rundown of what it is you believe? I suspect he is trying, and simply failing miserably at it. Wherever he is, he's probably scratching his head, wondering why we haven't all declared our conversion yet.


No..no---- "Though this be madness; there twas method in it"--Hamlet

I'm getting exactly what I need from you all to show a special audience who will soon be visiting.

You've behaved EXACTLY as i have predicted you would.

[CurtC]

NOTE TO READERSHIP: Arkan is attempting to make a linkage that someone named RemoveBush was banned becuase his posts were unreadable.Uh, no. He mentioned in passing that RemoveBush was banned, but his point was that your posts are about as unreadable as RB's were.

The seminal issue is , "What informed choice could the US voters have at the ballot box as of June 9, 1967 forward due to the conduct of the US News Media, Democrats and Republicans?.... You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

No..no---- "Though this be madness; there twas method in it"--Hamlet

I'm getting exactly what I need from you all to show a special audience who will soon be visiting.

You've behaved EXACTLY as i have predicted you would.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/ArkanWolfshade/kyle.jpg

[david carmichael]

Well, the multiple references to individuals as "pro-Zionist so-and-so" do give off a certain odor of eau de hatefreaque. So does the fact that he seems to have no specific message save "Jews Israelis Zionists are bad people".

I have a simple diagnostic test for hatefreakery. You simply replace all references in the document in question to the targeted group with "Jew", "Jews" or "Jewish" as grammatically appropriate. If the result reads like it was scraped off the composing room floor at Der Stuermer, the test is positive. Try it on some of DC's rantings and see what you get.



So are strings of talking-to-oneself, "and foithermore" posts. I don't know why, but they all seem to do it.

ETA: Hey, multiquote works! Far out.

Well..."anti-semitism" would IMPLY I was "telling lies"

Yomen Postelnik, a Jew of Rabbinical Divination, has pointed out the trickery used by pro-Zionists to claim "anti-semitism" by those who defend Israel's account...

...and maintain those who disagree with it....


But I like the trick phrase, "i have a simple test'....

The special audience who will soon be visiting will like it also.

"anti-semitism" would imply one was 'telling lies" because of hatred.

So you should have ABSOLUTELY NO problem then in being able to point out what portion of the wheelhouse superstructure is obscured by the USS Liberty's mast in the IDF History Report of 1982

...and why that tugboat "tension cable" is visible in both the Norfolk, Va. photo AND the IDF photo.


There should be NO man-made object(boat) in that "gun camera" photo... The Mirage Fighters had left before the MTBs had arrived.

They are both doctored photos.



You, who seem ready to complain to the MODs, are yourselves playing the "racist card"?

[JimBenArm]

No..no---- "Though this be madness; there twas method in it"--Hamlet

I'm getting exactly what I need from you all to show a special audience who will soon be visiting.

Special audience? Oh, my, I'm so excited!


You've behaved EXACTLY as i have predicted you would.


So, you predicted we'd spot right off you're an anti-semite, and smack you down accordingly? Good for you!

[david carmichael]

My father, who was instrumental in gaining civil rights for individuals with disabilities, used to tell politicians to replace "disabled" with "black." If the position of the opponent seemed racist, you knew it was discriminatory. A letter for a homeowners association might include the line, "This neighborhood is already crowded with the disabled, a group home for more disabiled would overburden us." Translation: "This neighborhood is already crowded with blacks, allowing a home for more blacks would overburden us."

It's a powerful way of detecting discrimination.


Then that same "cognitive detector" should have absolutely no difficulty in being able to point out what portion of the wheelhouse superstructure is obscured by the USS Liberty's mast in the IDF History Report of 1982

...and why that tugboat "tension cable" is visible in both the Norfolk, Va. photo AND the IDF photo.


There should be NO man-made object(boat) in that "gun camera" photo... The Mirage Fighters had left before the MTBs had arrived.

They are both doctored photos.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Well..."anti-semitism" would IMPLY I was "telling lies"
..."anti-semitism" would imply one was 'telling lies" because of hatred.
...
What in the following definition deals with the veracity of a statement

anti-Semitism

One entry found for anti-Semitism. Main Entry: an·ti-Sem·i·tism http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?antis01w.wav=anti-Semitism'))
Pronunciation: "an-tE-'se-m&-"ti-z&m, "an-"tI-
Function: noun
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
- an·ti-Se·mit·ic http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?anti_s02.wav=anti-Semitic')) /-s&-'mi-tik/ adjective
- an·ti-Sem·ite http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?anti_s03.wav=anti-Semite')) /-'se-"mIt/ noun
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=anti-Semitism

You, who seem ready to complain to the MODs, are yourselves playing the "racist card"?
If it ducks like a quack.

[david carmichael]

OK, who photoshopped in that H-2 over the bow of the Liberty?

DR



So why does the mast not appear inthe IDF History Report of 1982?

Because Israel used a photo they knew was NOT that of the USS Liberty.

That is why the intentionally blurred it.

Again... from a forum of people who pretend to be "debunkers"...

...just "misdirection" upon "misdirection".


The audience who will be visiting WILL BE very interested in this..

It is EXACTLY as I have predicted

[david carmichael]

Uh, no. He mentioned in passing that RemoveBush was banned, but his point was that your posts are about as unreadable as RB's were.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


Future discussion will be based on the "seminal" issue being disposed of.


...and YOU ALSO failed to point out what portion of the wheelhouse superstructure is obscured by the USS Liberty's mast in the IDF History Report of 1982

...and why that tugboat "tension cable" is visible in both the Norfolk, Va. photo AND the IDF photo.


There should be NO man-made object(boat) in that "gun camera" photo... The Mirage Fighters had left before the MTBs had arrived.

They are both doctored photos

[Gravy]

I'm getting exactly what I need from you all to show a special audience who will soon be visiting.Excellent! It's been a while since the short bus visited these parts.

[david carmichael]

My feelings exactly, but better said.

But they've lied to the democratic constiuencies they are obliged to serve... and they're STILL telling lies to those they are obliged to answer to...

...in what was an "act of war".


Critical Thinkers like you were unable to discern that?

..or are you supporting the murders of your fellow countrymen?

It is you who claim, in part, to have DEBUNKED the 9/11 CTers.


1) The 2 USS Liberty photos
2) The "intelligent thermite" thesis


You're not doing a good job.... or you're avoiding issues that need to serve as the seed upon which future discussions pertaining to public policy formation will be based upon

[Gravy]

There should be NO man-made object(boat) in that "gun camera" photo...
:eye-poppi

[david carmichael]

There is no Jehovah God.

That can only mean then that Israel doctored those 2 photos then, correct?

[david carmichael]

What in the following definition deals with the veracity of a statement
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=anti-Semitism


If it ducks like a quack.

Am I an "anti-semite" who is telling lies about those photos being doctored?

OR

Am I an "anti-semite" who is telling the truth about those photos being doctored?

[Horatius]

...and why that tugboat "tension cable" is visible in both the Norfolk, Va. photo AND the IDF photo.


There should be NO man-made object(boat) in that "gun camera" photo... The Mirage Fighters had left before the MTBs had arrived.



What tension cable are you talking about? The smudge pointed out in the gun camera photo isn't in the same spot or orientation as the tugboat. You're just seeing what you want to see. Like the Virgin Mary in a tree stump (http://www.randi.org/jr/2006-12/122106wise.html#i1).

[david carmichael]

So to summarise your...ummmmm theory, the Isrealis attacked a US ship and neither the US, Isreal or the worlds media attempted to cover up this attack or deny that it occured, but you believe that the blurry picture the israelis released of the attack was a fake because it was taken at a similar angle to one taken previously when the ship was docking (a bit like taking a picture of a building from two slightly different angles and then claiming one is a doctored image of the other....but nevermind) and that this, therefore, means the israelis are hiding something, though you have not the faintest idea what that something could possibly be?

Correct?

If so then I am in awe of your brain and would like to see it preserved in a jar....as soon as possible :D


One is not a "doctored image of the other"... i never made that claim

You knew that before you wrote the post.....

You lied to the readership and to that special audience who will be visiting.

Those are 2 DIFFERENT photos taken MOMENTS apart... the comparison shows that BOTH photos were taken at the Norfolk Naval Ship Yards

[david carmichael]

What tension cable are you talking about? The smudge pointed out in the gun camera photo isn't in the same spot or orientation as the tugboat. You're just seeing what you want to see. Like the Virgin Mary in a tree stump (http://www.randi.org/jr/2006-12/122106wise.html#i1).

Because the photos were not taken at the same moment ...they are two DIFFERENT photos taken at NEARLY the same time.


...but the "tugboat tension cable is visible in both" as are the individuals standing at the guardrail, etc.

...and you too are engaging in "intellectual dishonesty" in what was act of war

[uk_dave]

So the israelis attacked the USS Liberty in Norfolk Naval Ship Yards!

OK I understand now.... (whistling)

[david carmichael]

Special audience? Oh, my, I'm so excited!


Yes... a very special audience



So, you predicted we'd spot right off you're an anti-semite, and smack you down accordingly? Good for you!


I predicted you'd use the card tricks of "slick language" and "make appeals to logic" while ignoring completely the "concrete" of "doctored evidence" used to explain away the murders of 34 Americns.

Obviously, I'd only invite an audience who I thought was capable of turning the "senseless slaughter" of those murdered 34 into some kind of "meaningful sacrifice"

[JimBenArm]

Because the photos were not taken at the same moment ...they are two DIFFERENT photos taken at NEARLY the same time.


...but the "tugboat tension cable is visible in both" as are the individuals standing at the guardrail, etc.

...and you too are engaging in "intellectual dishonesty" in what was act of war

Oh, come on. 'fes up. The only reason you have your panties in a wad about this is because Israeli planes did it. It happened over 40 years ago. No one is going to do anything. Sorry. Get over it.

Try channelling all that energy into something useful, instead of chasing your tail on some dead issue that no one else cares about.

Bye!

[JimBenArm]

Yes... a very special audience





I predicted you'd use the card tricks of "slick language" and "make appeals to logic" while ignoring completely the "concrete" of "doctored evidence" used to explain away the murders of 34 Americns.

Obviously, I'd only invite an audience who I thought was capable of turning the "senseless slaughter" of those murdered 34 into some kind of "meaningful sacrifice"


Oh, yes and put "scare quotes" around "random words" to make myself "super scary" to "other people".

Wow! You are priceless!

[JimBenArm]

I see the Zionists released their hold on your mouse. Very good!

So, who is this special audience? The Special Olympics? Do they let you compete in all the events?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

That can only mean then that Israel doctored those 2 photos then, correct?

False dilemma
This fallacy typically involves asking a question and providing only two possible answers when there are actually far more. It seems to be a favourite of politicians, especially when trying to win support for a none-too-plausible policy. Take this classic example:
You're either with us or against us.The implicit argument here is that two possible positions exist with regard to the matter at hand: in favour or opposed. If we are not in favour, then, it follows that we must be opposed; and vice versa. The use of such tactics often give us the opportunity of appreciating fine—if overblown—rhetoric, too, like "do you support this war to defend our way of life or are you a cowardly, treasonous blackguard?" To expose the question as a false dilemma, all we need do is show that an alternative response exits. Other names for the same thing are the black and white fallacy, which immediately calls our attention to the shades of grey that are ignored, or the bifurcation fallacy.
Take another example:
Either you support lowering taxes or you're content to see this country go to hell in short order.The person presenting such a choice presumably advocates the lowering of taxes and is offering us a choice of two options. Since the second one seems unpalatable, he or she assumes we will lend our support to the policy. Taking the best possible reading of this situation, we might have the following:
P1: We can lower taxes or the country can go to the devil;
P2: No other options exist;
C: Therefore, a person not agreeing with lowering taxes is content to see the country fall apart.Even this does not precisely address the statement as given; for instance, we could hold no opinion at all on the matter, or be insufficiently informed to do so sensibly. These are alternatives, so the choice given is a false dilemma. In the above formulation we could challenge P2, since it seems unlikely that only one policy has been proposed. A single alternative would again make the choice a false dilemma. As before, this is a fallacy of presumption. http://www.galilean-library.org/int16.html#false_dilemma

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

...I predicted you'd use the card tricks of "slick language" and "make appeals to logic" while ignoring completely the "concrete" of "doctored evidence" used to explain away the murders of 34 Americns...
Strawman. An appeal to logic fallacy is as follows

Argumentum ad logicam (argument to logic). This is the fallacy of assuming that something is false simply because a proof or argument that someone has offered for it is invalid; this reasoning is fallacious because there may be another proof or argument that successfully supports the proposition. This fallacy often appears in the context of a straw man (http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Straw man) argument. This is another case in which the burden of proof determines whether it is actually a fallacy or not. If a proposing team fails to provide sufficient support for its case, the burden of proof dictates they should lose the debate, even if there exist other arguments (not presented by the proposing team) that could have supported the case successfully. Moreover, it is common practice in debate for judges to give no weight to a point supported by an argument that has been proven invalid by the other team, even if there might be a valid argument the team failed to make that would have supported the same point; this is because the implicit burden of proof rests with the team that brought up the argument. For further commentary on burdens of proof, see argumentum ad ignorantiam (http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Argumentum ad ignorantium), above. http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Argumentum%20ad%20logicam

Personally, I have limited myself to dealing with the logical consistencies of your argument because I am not experienced in photo analysis, neither am I familiar with the incident in question. There are, however, people here that are qualified in both of those areas and they have addressed your question.

[hurdygurdy]

I'm looking to catch the US Government/News Media in ANY lie...

...when the people charged with investigating/preserving the evidence ARE THE criminals themselves...

...one must look for lies SINCE THE evidence has been placed outside their reach

I guess you mean the News Media from THE WHOLE WORLD. Or just the News Media from the US and/or controlled by the Jooooos?

[maccy]

I disagree with the "unreadable post" motif.

..but stated simply, "what portion of the wheelhouse/superstructure is obscured by the mast....

... in what is purported to be a gun camera photo of the USS Liberty in the 1982 IDF History Report?

...and point the MODs to any of the OCTers who have answered that question.

What was it that necessitated Greening feeling he had to advance an "intelligent thermite" thesis in the first place?

But they've lied to the democratic constiuencies they are obliged to serve... and they're STILL telling lies to those they are obliged to answer to...

...in what was an "act of war".


Critical Thinkers like you were unable to discern that?

..or are you supporting the murders of your fellow countrymen?

It is you who claim, in part, to have DEBUNKED the 9/11 CTers.


1) The 2 USS Liberty photos
2) The "intelligent thermite" thesis


You're not doing a good job.... or you're avoiding issues that need to serve as the seed upon which future discussions pertaining to public policy formation will be based upon

I don't accept that the photo is doctored. But even if it is, what does that prove?

Regarding "intelligent thermite" there is no such thesis. It is a strawman devised by Gordon Ross (a CTer) to attack Greening. More details here:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2224591#post2224591

[Loss Leader]

The official position of the USG is that the attack was a case of mistaken identity. This is supported by the bulk of the evidence, and it is a conclusion shared by the US Navy Court of Inquiry which took sworn testimony from many of the ship's officers.

The US believed then and believes now that the attack was a case of mistaken identity. Israel admitted to its involvement within minutes of the attack's conclusion.

Falcon, thanks for your insight into this event. Your post caused me to go back and do some research on the Liberty incident. There is a great deal of conflicting information out there but these facts appear to be incontrovertable:

- The Liberty was a spy ship, tasked with intercepting communications.
- It was about 12 miles from the Sinai Peninsula when it was fired upon.
- The US had told Israel that it had no ships in the area.
- The Liberty was fired upon during the Six Day War.
- US and Israel both conducted separate inquiries into the incident which led both to conclude it was an accidental shooting.
- Many high placed US officials (including Dean Rusk, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of staff and the Director of the CIA) disagreed that it was an accident.
- Israel eventually paid $13 million in reparations.
- It's 40 years later. The US and Israel have been close allies since that time. Nobody in a position of authority cares anymore.

From this, I think it can be fairly concluded that the question of whether this attack was accidental has not been settled. There is good reason why Israel would not want to make an enemy out of the US, however there is also good reason why Israel would attack someone spying on their communications during a war.

I think it can also be fairly concluded that neither the US nor Israeli governments care anymore. The people of the US didn't really care much back in 1967 and care even less now. I believe the reason is that most people understand that international diplomacy is a messy business and if you send a ship into a war zone, you should expect to get shot at.

I also think that it is ridiculous in the extreme to believe that this forty year-old incident makes it even a fraction of a percent more likely that Israel had a hand in the events of 9/11. In fact, I believe such thoughts could be entertained only by the most rabid anti-semite.

dc is a nutbar, pure and simple.

On this, we agree completely.

[ktesibios]

There is no Jehovah God.That can only mean then that Israel doctored those 2 photos then, correct?

No, but it means that we'll have to give Fort Ticonderoga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ticondsurrender.jpg) back to the British.


The audience who will be visiting WILL BE very interested in this..

It is EXACTLY as I have predicted

But I like the trick phrase, "i have a simple test'....

The special audience who will soon be visiting will like it also.



No..no---- "Though this be madness; there twas method in it"--Hamlet

I'm getting exactly what I need from you all to show a special audience who will soon be visiting.

You've behaved EXACTLY as i have predicted you would.

Yes... a very special audience


And you'll be happy to see those nice young men in their clean white coats?

[Falcon Apoda]

I'm getting exactly what I need from you all to show a special audience who will soon be visiting.Who are you going to invite?

Didn't you get kicked off of the forum for USS Liberty survivors?

Seems that even they considered you a loonball nutter... about as much use as a screen door on a submarine.

[Myriad]

Yes... a very special audience

I have some experience in special education, so I look forward to meeting your very special audience. Having helped several Down's Syndrome and otherwise severely mentally retarded* men get close to their goal of becoming Eagle Scouts (only 5 merit badges to go) in our special Boy Scout troop in a mere 25 years, I'm optimistic that I can help the folks here impart some reasoning skills to your very special audience, perhaps in less than half that time.

Respectfully,
Myriad

*(Apologies if "retarded" is no longer a PC term to use. I've been doing this since it was the current PC term to use, and I see no reason to change just because some boors choose to use the word as an insult, as they will inevitably do for any other substituted euphemism such as "special needs" or "challenged." David, I mean no offense to the members of your special audience or to the people who provide their daily care.)

[tsig]

No..no---- "Though this be madness; there twas method in it"--Hamlet

I'm getting exactly what I need from you all to show a special audience who will soon be visiting.

You've behaved EXACTLY as i have predicted you would.

We have been used, mankind has been used!

He must be setting us up for the attack by the LC Hords.


GET YER POPCORN HERE!

LC HORDS vs THE NINJA WAVE.

Current betting odds NW 10>10 to 1 LCH no bets yet.

[tsig]

I see the Zionists released their hold on your mouse. Very good!

So, who is this special audience? The Special Olympics? Do they let you compete in all the events?

It's the Special Mental Olympics and yes dc seems to qualify in most of the events.

Using pictures that "you" claim are false to "prove" anything seems illogical.

[david carmichael]

Oh, come on. 'fes up. The only reason you have your panties in a wad about this is because Israeli planes did it. It happened over 40 years ago. No one is going to do anything. Sorry. Get over it.

Try channelling all that energy into something useful, instead of chasing your tail on some dead issue that no one else cares about.

Bye!

Ohhh... "panties in a wad"... the skillful use of language to attempt to marginalize what you know to be the truth.

Well, you see...the fact that it happened more than 40 years ago means absolutley NOTHING to this special audience in terms of their present ability to ........

[Myriad]

....... finish sentences?

- M

[JimBenArm]

Ohhh... "panties in a wad"... the skillful use of language to attempt to marginalize what you know to be the truth.

Well, you see...the fact that it happened more than 40 years ago means absolutley NOTHING to this special audience in terms of their present ability to ........

Oh, I see. Yet another attempt to frighten me by leaving it to my imagination who this "special audience" is. Big whoop.

What is their ability? I hope that is is more than "put shoes on correct feet". Although I doubt it.

You do not intimidate anyone. Least of all me. Your "special audience" is a sham. Your inability to name them or their abilities shows them to be just that.

Bye, Poser!

[jhunter1163]

I envision the debate between the LC Horde and the Ninja Wave to go something like this:

LCH: Faster than freefall! Thermite! Squibs! Pull it! Northwoods! NWO! Zionists! Dancing JOOOOOOS! Surviving hijackers! PNAC! Bush! Rummy! Mineta! NORAD!

Ninjas: (get out clue bats, beat Twoofers senseless with facts and logic)

LCH: We win! (drag selves back to caves)

[CurtC]

dc, please let us know when the Short Bus is about to arrive.

[david carmichael]

Who are you going to invite?

Didn't you get kicked off of the forum for USS Liberty survivors?

Seems that even they considered you a loonball nutter... about as much use as a screen door on a submarine.

You're absolutely correct... I was banished from the usslibertyinquiry.com site.

Their "legal director" and "site administrator" had 3 times presented DOCTORED information himself.... i kept on throwing HIS "intellectual dishonesty" in his face on that forum.

I hold the GOI to no standards that I hold any one else to.

There is a subset of the survivors who have refused to associate with the LVA precisely because of this type of conduct.

I'm authoring the "final nail in the coffin" to the War Crimes Complaints US District Court's prospects before the US Attorney.

1)The DoD broke the law in refusing to investigate the war Crimes Complaint

2)Having exhausted ALL their "administrative remedies"..the families would now have to sue in US District Court to force the DoD to obey the law

3)Their legal director, who has 3 times presented doctored evidence, authored the War Crimes Complaint

4)The lies told by the LVA legal director annihilates the "reliable" and "probative" nature of his assertions before the US District Court judge

The LVA themselves having destroyed their credibility when they signed on to what they KNEW were lies told by their legal director.

This then comes down to unbiased assertions an attorney is PRESUMED to make before a US District Court Judge.

It is my contention that the US Attorney is under no burden to verify the "points and authorities" cited by the LVA once he has compromised his integrity.

No "points and authorities" admitted... no foundational basis for the War Crimes Complaint to be pursued...cut off at the judicial equivalent of the WCC knees.


I'll singlehandedly get justice for the 34 "murder victims" without telling one lie before a judge....

...or engaging in one act of "intellectual dishonesty".


Again, the GOI will not be held to any statndard that the LVA are not willing to hold themselves to.

5)...and elements of the LVA have been stupid enough to admit in writing that they engaged in an attempt at "felony intimidation" because they knew I was going to expose their legal director for what he did.

So...one of them will be going to prison after I trash the War Crimes Complaint.


So back to our topic......Point out where in the 1982 IDF History Report is the portion of the wheelhouse/superstructure that should be obscured by the USS Liberty's mast?

[Horatius]

I disagree with the "unreadable post" motif.

..but stated simply, "what portion of the wheelhouse/superstructure is obscured by the mast....

... in what is purported to be a gun camera photo of the USS Liberty in the 1982 IDF History Report?

...and point the MODs to any of the OCTers who have answered that question.

What was it that necessitated Greening feeling he had to advance an "intelligent thermite" thesis in the first place?

You may disagree with it, but you're still a master at it. Five sentences, with three colours and four different, unrelated topics, with absolutely no connecting prose to explain why you're discussing them all at once. And don't even get me started on the over use of the period key.

Stringing a bunch of random thoughts together is not the same as making a coherent argument. Just in case no one else has ever mentioned that to you.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Ohhh... "panties in a wad"... the skillful use of language to attempt to marginalize what you know to be the truth.

Well, you see...the fact that it happened more than 40 years ago means absolutley NOTHING to this special audience in terms of their present ability to ........

Consider applying the follow to improve the readability of your posts

Ellipsis in English
The Chicago Manual of Style (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chicago_Manual_of_Style) suggests the use of an ellipsis (also known as an ellipse) for any omitted word, phrase, line or paragraph from within a quoted passage. There are two commonly used methods of using ellipses: one uses three dots for any omission, the second makes a distinction between omissions within a sentence (using three dots: ...) and omissions between sentences (using a period and a space followed by three nonbreaking-spaced (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonbreaking_space) dots: . . . .). Therefore, there is no such thing as a "four-dot ellipsis." A period followed by an ellipsis may look like four dots, but they are two separate entities.
Although some write ellipses without spaces, some institutions, such as the Oxford University Press (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_University_Press), place one space in front of three non-spaced periods. Thus: “I have seen something ...” instead of “I have seen something...” The exception here is when a word has been cut off in the middle; that is, when the ellipsis stands for a part of one word: “‘He said he realized he was wro…’ I stopped mid-word, awestruck.” (In English this is often written as “‘He said he realized he was wro—’ I stopped mid-word, awestruck.”)
At least one style manual—the MLA Handbook for Writers of Research Papers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLA_Handbook_for_Writers_of_Research_Papers)—recom mends that the writer enclose an ellipsis in brackets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracket) ([ ]) when omitting part of an original quotation. The purpose of this is to prevent readers from confusing ellipses indicating omissions with ellipses included in the original text. However, most other style guides, including the Chicago Manual of Style, recommend the use of bare ellipses to indicate omissions.
According to Robert Bringhurst's Elements of Typographic Style (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elements_of_Typographic_Style), the details of typesetting ellipses depend on the character and size of the font being set and the typographer's preference. Bringhurst writes that a full space between each dot is "another Victorian eccentricity. In most contexts, the Chicago ellipsis is much too wide"—he recommends using flush dots, or thin-spaced dots (up to M/5, but thin spaces should be avoided on the Web, because they cannot be displayed reliably in Microsoft Internet Explorer 6), or the prefabricated ellipsis character (Unicode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode) U+2026, Latin entity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_entity) …). Bringhurst suggests that normally an ellipsis should be spaced fore-and-aft to separate it from the text, but when it combines with other punctuation, the leading space disappears and the other punctuation follows. He provides the following examples:
i ... jk....l..., ll, ... lm...?n...!
In legal writing in the United States, Rule 5.3 in the Bluebook (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluebook) citation guide governs the use of ellipses and requires a space before the first dot and between the two subsequent dots. If an ellipsis ends the sentence, then there are three dots, each separated by a space, followed by the final punctuation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elipses

[david carmichael]

http://www.galilean-library.org/int16.html#false_dilemma

You're correct.

The syllogism should be

1)Those are doctored photos
2) There is no Jehovah God
3) Israel therefore must have doctored the photos they themselves presented as evidence

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

You're correct.

The syllogism should be

1)Those are doctored photos
2) There is no Jehovah God
3) Israel therefore must have doctored the photos they themselves presented as evidence

*sigh* No. You are doing the following.

Either X or Y. Not X, therefore Y.

However, you are ignoring the potential Z. Some potential Z's in your example would include, but are not limited to:

The KGB doctored the photo
The IPU's doctored the photo
The photo is not doctored
ETA: You must establish that X and Y are the only possibilities for your either/or choice to be valid. You have not done so.

[david carmichael]

You may disagree with it, but you're still a master at it. Five sentences, with three colours and four different, unrelated topics, with absolutely no connecting prose to explain why you're discussing them all at once. And don't even get me started on the over use of the period key.

Stringing a bunch of random thoughts together is not the same as making a coherent argument. Just in case no one else has ever mentioned that to you.


...which could have ALL been prevented if over 100 posts ago...someone had JUST pointed out what portion of that wheelhouse/superstructure is obscured by the USS Liberty's mast?

[david carmichael]

*sigh* No. You are doing the following.

Either X or Y. Not X, therefore Y.

However, you are ignoring the potential Z. Some potential Z's in your example would include, but are not limited to:

The KGB doctored the photo
The IPU's doctored the photo
The photo is not doctored
ETA: You must establish that X and Y are the only possibilities for your either/or choice to be valid. You have not done so.


The KGB ?????

It was not the Soviet's who presented the evidence... it was the GOI

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

The KGB ?????

It was not the Soviet's who presented the evidence... it was the GOI
Red herring. I was clearly listing some ad hoc possibilities to highlight the logic flaw in your reasoning. Please address the logic flaw, not my ad hoc examples.

[david carmichael]

Hey!!!!... You pro-Zionists are a disappointment.

You're fellow shills in other forums will never let you live down the humiliation of me having caught up to your postings!!!

You're supposed to be WEARING ME down.... not the other way around!!!

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Hey!!!!... You pro-Zionists are a disappointment.

You're fellow shills in other forums will never let you live down the humiliation of me having caught up to your postings!!!

You're supposed to be WEARING ME down.... not the other way around!!!
This forum discusses evidence, and logical consistency in arguments. You appear to have some misconceptions about how such discussions work.

[JimBenArm]

Hey!!!!... You pro-Zionists are a disappointment.

You're fellow shills in other forums will never let you live down the humiliation of me having caught up to your postings!!!

You're supposed to be WEARING ME down.... not the other way around!!!


Oh, my! How will I ever live with myself? Oh, the shame!


I didn't know it was a contest to "wear you down". Is that what I'm doing? Oh, silly me. I thought my purpose here was to expose you for the fraud you are!

Which I have done.

There is no "special audience". There is no "ability".

You are doing nothing more than trying to rally whatever pathetic scum that thinks the JOOOS!!!111!!! are behind everything wrong with their sorry lives, so they can blame someone else other than themselves.

Sorry. You lose. Vanna has some lovely parting gifts. Here's a copy of the home game. Stay there and play it.

Bye!

[david carmichael]

Red herring. I was clearly listing some ad hoc possibilities to highlight the logic flaw in your reasoning. Please address the logic flaw, not my ad hoc examples.


Okay... it purportedly came from an Israeli Military Fighter Jet as per the IDF's contentions.

They had the "chain of custody".

They presented the evidence from wherever they had had custody of it.

Therefore, Israel doctored the photo.

I'd like to say hello to Mike Weeks and Theodore Bell.....

Helllooo m'poor bairns.....I'll give y'warp factor eight and maybe a weee bit more.

Y'think I'm going to be collecting my multiple IRS CID Pizza Delivery Rewards, Mikey???

I've obviously "intellectually outmatched" some of your fellow shills to the point where they feel they need to call in reinforcements.

Mikey...tell them aboot you hanging aroond the "arrogant jet jocks", laddie


Mike Weeks is Wing Commander of the Data Entry Squadron!!!!

His two adjutants are Commander Dvorak of the Keyboard Squadron...

...and Lt. Epson of the Printer squadron.


Mikey...noo that you're here.... and since Mr. Spock is doon on the planet's surface with Captain Kirk

...can we give the Gaelic Mind Meld just ONE MORE tryyyyyyy????

[babazaroni]

Hey!!!!... You pro-Zionists are a disappointment.

You're fellow shills in other forums will never let you live down the humiliation of me having caught up to your postings!!!

You're supposed to be WEARING ME down.... not the other way around!!!

Wonder if this thread will approach ChristopherA epic proportions?

[DavidJames]

Wonder if this thread will approach ChristopherA epic proportions?
I don't know, but his posts do leave a "concrete core" taste in my mouth.

[david carmichael]

Oh, my! How will I ever live with myself? Oh, the shame!


I didn't know it was a contest to "wear you down". Is that what I'm doing? Oh, silly me. I thought my purpose here was to expose you for the fraud you are!

Which I have done.

There is no "special audience". There is no "ability".

You are doing nothing more than trying to rally whatever pathetic scum that thinks the JOOOS!!!111!!! are behind everything wrong with their sorry lives, so they can blame someone else other than themselves.

Sorry. You lose. Vanna has some lovely parting gifts. Here's a copy of the home game. Stay there and play it.

Bye!


Well...since you've NOW obviously contacted Mike Weeks and Theodore Bell....

...they'll BOTH tell you there is not an anti-semitic bone in my body.

They've BOTH KNOWN me alot longer than any of you...and they're on YOUR side

[JimBenArm]

Wonder if this thread will approach ChristopherA epic proportions?

Yes, there are some major similarities between this guy and Ol' Chris!

Seems to think when we prove him wrong, he wins.

Blather. Rinse. Repeat. Ad Infinitum

[JimBenArm]

Well...since you've NOW obviously contacted Mike Weeks and Theodore Bell....

...they'll BOTH tell you there is not an anti-semitic bone in my body.

They've BOTH KNOWN me alot longer than any of you...and they're on YOUR side

I think your behavior speaks for itself. Don't need to hear from anyone. Every bigot I have known could line up people around the block to testify how they were as fair and impartial as could be.

[JimBenArm]

Oh, and I'm still waiting on who this "special audience" is. And what this "ability" I'm supposed to be worried about is, as well.

Any time now.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Okay... it purportedly came from an Israeli Military Fighter Jet as per the IDF's contentions.
They had the "chain of custody".
They presented the evidence from wherever they had had custody of it.


Please provide objective, corroboratable substantiating evidence to support these claims

Therefore, Israel doctored the photo.
Let's see your evidence for above, then will see if your conclusion is logically consistent.

[sackett]

GOI? Is that by any chance pronounced "goy?"

Now I see it! Oh, what fiendish simplicity!

I mean, fiendish ingenuity. Yeah, that's it.

I'm hunting for my good old nutbar recipe.

[david carmichael]

Well...since you've NOW obviously contacted Mike Weeks and Theodore Bell....

...they'll BOTH tell you there is not an anti-semitic bone in my body.

They've BOTH KNOWN me alot longer than any of you...and they're on YOUR side


.and they'll both ALSO tell you that I don't "cheat"

No "cheating" with a doctored War Crimes Complaint and no "cheating" with me refusing to engage in "intellectual dishonesty"

[aggle-rithm]

Okay... it purportedly came from an Israeli Military Fighter Jet as per the IDF's contentions.

They had the "chain of custody".

They presented the evidence from wherever they had had custody of it.

Therefore, Israel doctored the photo.

I'd like to say hello to Mike Weeks and Theodore Bell.....

Helllooo m'poor bairns.....I'll give y'warp factor eight and maybe a weee bit more.

Y'think I'm going to be collecting my multiple IRS CID Pizza Delivery Rewards, Mikey???

I've obviously "intellectually outmatched" some of your fellow shills to the point where they feel they need to call in reinforcements.

Mikey...tell them aboot you hanging aroond the "arrogant jet jocks", laddie


Mike Weeks is Wing Commander of the Data Entry Squadron!!!!

His two adjutants are Commander Dvorak of the Keyboard Squadron...

...and Lt. Epson of the Printer squadron.


Mikey...noo that you're here.... and since Mr. Spock is doon on the planet's surface with Captain Kirk

...can we give the Gaelic Mind Meld just ONE MORE tryyyyyyy????

Please get back with us after you've alerted the media.

[Architect]

Gaelic Mind Meld

Tha mise ghaidhlig. What the feck is he on about?

[aggle-rithm]

.and they'll both ALSO tell you that I don't "cheat"

No "cheating" with a doctored War Crimes Complaint and no "cheating" with me refusing to engage in "intellectual dishonesty"

I think I missed the part where you explained why it's significant that the photos were tampered with. I mean, given the fact that it's pretty well accepted by history that the Isrealis deliberately attacked the Liberty, and there is therefore nothing to cover up.

[Loss Leader]

I'm authoring the "final nail in the coffin" to the War Crimes Complaints US District Court's prospects before the US Attorney.

1)The DoD broke the law in refusing to investigate the war Crimes Complaint

So here's the actual truth. The Liberty Veterans Association did press the DoD for a war crimes investigation. The Judge Advocate General, however, responded that an exhaustive investigation had already been conducted, that Israel had already been found cuplable, and that Israel had already appologized and paid reparations. An investigation already having been completed, no new investigation was required by law.

You can see the letter from the JAG Office here: http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/armyrply.gif

2)Having exhausted ALL their "administrative remedies"..the families would now have to sue in US District Court to force the DoD to obey the law

I guess they could sue, but they'll lose. The US has already done everything it was required to do about the Liberty incident.

Also, it appears that some of these men have already been paid reparations by Israel, meaning that they have no claim for further damages.

3)Their legal director, who has 3 times presented doctored evidence, authored the War Crimes Complaint

The "complaint" could have been written by the Pope and notarized by the Chief Rabbi of Minsk and it would have made no difference. The DoD didn't refuse to open an investigation because the evidence wasn't compelling, they refused to open an investigation because an investigation was already done. Nothing in the LVA's evidence would change that fact.

4)The lies told by the LVA legal director annihilates the "reliable" and "probative" nature of his assertions before the US District Court judge

I don't know what you're talking about. I don't see a case by the LVA against the US in any court. I see a case regarding a FOIA request to the NSA, but nothing else. I'd like a link to any information about this court case so I can examine the documents.

I'll singlehandedly get justice for the 34 "murder victims" without telling one lie before a judge....

...or engaging in one act of "intellectual dishonesty".

No, you won't. The inquiry required by law was conducted, a report issued, culpability admitted and reparations paid. There is no more justice to get.

So...one of them will be going to prison after I trash the War Crimes Complaint.

No, he won't.

[Horatius]

So now he's talking to both himself, and some guys who aren't in this thread. Officially crazy, then?

[CurtC]

They presented the evidence from wherever they had had custody of it.

Therefore, Israel doctored the photo.I think you left out a step. Have you presented evidence that the photo is, in fact, doctored?

Even if you could do that (which it's apparent by now that you can't), you would still have a long way to go to establish some kind of deeper conspiracy. As aggle-rightm has pointed out, all the parties have already admitted their involvement. No one cares anymore.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Let me see if I understand what is being posited here.
1) A US military vessel was attacked
2) Israel admits responsibility and claims it was a case of misidentification
3) Israeli military is found culpable
4) Israel pays reparations
5) Some survivors of US vessel aren't satisfied with the reparations
6) An image from a gunsight camera is released
7) david carmichael interprets said image as having been manipulated

david carmichael declares this a cover of up what exactly?

[uk_dave]

david carmichael declares this a cover of up what exactly?

Don't forget, the whole worlds media is in on the...ummmm devious ...ermmmm coverup.... of..... something.

[JimBenArm]

Let me see if I understand what is being posited here.
1) A US military vessel was attacked
2) Israel admits responsibility and claims it was a case of misidentification
3) Israeli military is found culpable
4) Israel pays reparations
5) Some survivors of US vessel aren't satisfied with the reparations
6) An image from a gunsight camera is released
7) david carmichael interprets said image as having been manipulated

That sums it up!
david carmichael declares this a cover of up what exactly?
Well, you see, there's these mean old Zionists who are trying to take over the whole world, and only DC stands between them and their objectives. Or not. Not really sure...

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Let me see if I understand what is being posited here.
1) A US military vessel was attacked
2) Israel admits responsibility and claims it was a case of misidentification
3) Israeli military is found culpable
4) Israel pays reparations
5) Some survivors of US vessel aren't satisfied with the reparations
6) An image from a gunsight camera is released
7) david carmichael interprets said image as having been manipulated

david carmichael declares this a cover of up what exactly?
Is the supposed coverup in relation to pt 2 in that it was not a case of misidentification but was intentional. If so, for what reason? By whom? Was the US gov't complacent, participatory, or fooled by the coverup?

[Brian Pears]

I think I missed the part where you explained why it's significant that the photos were tampered with. I mean, given the fact that it's pretty well accepted by history that the Isrealis deliberately attacked the Liberty, and there is therefore nothing to cover up.

My thoughts too. I don't know of anyone who remembers the incident who doesn't believe that the Israelis attacked the Liberty because it was obviously spying on them, and that both sides agreed to describe the attack as an accident to avoid the embarrassment they both felt - one for spying on a friend, the other for attacking a friend. To describe the incident as the murder of Americans and a war crime is ridiculous. The Americans were spying and were potentially a huge threat to the Israeli war effort. What could Israel do but remove that threat? In my opinion they were fully justified in doing so. The diplomatic niceties which followed were no more than the usual mutually agreed smoothing over of a mutuallly embarrassing incident - no more than happens regularly at every level of society from families to nations. Some questions remain unanswered - for example, did the Israelis know it was a US ship they were attacking - but the basics are not in doubt. Either way, the photos are an irrelevance.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

So, what this whole thing is that he doesn't like the Politics of how things played out?

[JimBenArm]

So, what this whole thing is that he doesn't like the Politics of how things played out?

It's a little more than that. He's convinced it's a Zionist scheme that has suppressed the evidence of something more sinister. What, I'm not sure. I'm not even sure he knows.

[Kiwiwriter]

Having waded through DC's weirdness, let me see if I can figure this out.

1. Israel attacks USS Liberty.
2. Israel kills US personnel.
3. Courts rule that Israel did it.
4. Israel apologizes and pays $13 million in reparations.

and somehow, this proves...

1. Israel is evil.
2. US government kills its own people.
3. Both nations teamed up to destroy World Trade Center.
4. DC is going to singlehandedly get justice for the crew of USS Liberty.
5. And this will expose the Zionist domination of the world.

Right. And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.

And all this is based on a fuzzy photograph that doesn't show a mast properly.

Now, what I'm waiting for is that "special audience." I'm not sure if they're the team of psychiatrists that DC is seeing or if they're the guys who are supposed to give the evil Jews "special handling," or if they're the guys on the USS Liberty site that booted DC off of it.

Glad to see that CTers are as consistent as ever...true to their nuttiness. :boggled:

[ktesibios]

So now he's talking to both himself, and some guys who aren't in this thread. Officially crazy, then?

Is an established history as a NetLoon and Usenet troll admissible?

This alt.security.terrorism posting (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.security.terrorism/browse_thread/thread/1d72ffd75274b014/e1e5ab4f151831d2?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1&hl=en#e1e5ab4f151831d2) establishes the relationship between "carmichael", "david Paton" of the Liberty forum and "montgomery_scott2001".

And this google groups search (http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=%22I%27ll+give+y%27warp+factor+eight+and+ maybe+a+wee+bit+more.%22&start=0&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&num=10&) shows the extent to which carmichael/paton/scott spammed his phony dialect persona on Usenet.

Not quite Christophera material- Chris at least goes to the trouble of putting his trail of madness on his own Web site, while carmichael/paton/scott just trolls newsgroups and 'net fora.

He's only here to troll, IMHO. Best not to feed him.

ETA: and the "special audience"? Most likely pizza delivery people.

[hellaeon]

Falcon Apoda and Loss leader (to a lesser degree) have both addressed the whole threads apparent meaning. There is no conspiracy here, no need to reply to DC.

For reference Falcon Apoda (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2223937&postcount=89) and Loss Leaders (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2225250&postcount=169) posts. Note neither post has or will be addressed by DC.

Cheers to you both though for the facts, though I should look it up myself since you neither offer any references (though I may have missed this)

Every time DC lies a kitten dies, so dont tempt him fellow JREFers ....

[Falcon Apoda]

Falcon Apoda and Loss leader (to a lesser degree) have both addressed the whole threads apparent meaning. There is no conspiracy here, no need to reply to DC.

As an added note, the readers of this thread may be interested in a Googling of some posts made by someone who called himself "montgomery_scott (http://tinyurl.com/vd7hg)".

I invite you to compare them to the following post made by "david carmichael (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2225137#post2225137)".

And then you may make your own judgement as to the hot-steaming pile in which you tread whenever dealing with this guy.

[Falcon Apoda]

Cheers to you both though for the facts, though I should look it up myself since you neither offer any references (though I may have missed this)

I would suggest taking a look at the Web site by A.J. Cristol (http://www.thelibertyincident.com/). It contains a fairly comprehensive amount of material on the subject.

[Loss Leader]

.Cheers to you both though for the facts, though I should look it up myself since you neither offer any references (though I may have missed this)

The Wikipedia entry for the USS Liberty is fairly unbiased and gives links to news sources as well as pro-conspiracy and anti-conspiracy resourses. Another place to find great documentation (although in support of a biased point of view) is the Liberty Veterans Association page. They actually published the JAG office's letter explaining why no new investigation would be conducted.

[kookbreaker]

I would suggest taking a look at the Web site by A.J. Cristol (http://www.thelibertyincident.com/). It contains a fairly comprehensive amount of material on the subject.

That's a very effective site. One of the things it points out is how easy a 'Friendly Fire' incident can be. Mnay folks scream about how the Liberty didn't look like the Egyptian ship it was mistaken for and was flying an American flag. But as Cristol notes, during WW2 some British Swordfish (a much slower plane than Mirage jets) accidently attack a British Cruiser (one the pilots were familiar with and saw almost every day) after mistaking it for the Bismark (a much, much larger ship). The British pilots (who, unlike the Isreali pilots, were actually trained in maritime identification) only avoided sinking the Cruiser because all their torpedoes malfunctioned.

The Liberty incident was a tragedy, but it was almost doubtless an accident. I'm not saying the Isreali forces couldn't have done better (a lot better), but they don't deserve the villification some folks have given them. You still hear the myth about the planes shooting sailors in lifeboats...even though no sailor on the Liberty ever had to use the lifeboats.