The Role of Government

[Roadtoad]

You know, I'm probably going to regret posting this, but what the hell...

Considering the role government plays in so many conspiracy theories, you would think that the nutjobs making these accusations would be asking for less Federal involvment in our daily lives. As it is, those I keep hearing about are asking for more. Could someone explain this one?

[Loss Leader]

I don't know if I agree. Many that I've seen have been real ultra-right libertarian anti-tax loonies. Others claim tha 9/11 had no purpose other than to pass the Patriot Act. And many want some sort of international investigation because the US government can't be trusted.

Can you give an example?

[Roadtoad]

Streisand and her husband are two. I'd add the Loose Change crew, too.

[Oliver]

You know, I'm probably going to regret posting this, but what the hell...

Considering the role government plays in so many conspiracy theories, you would think that the nutjobs making these accusations would be asking for less Federal involvment in our daily lives. As it is, those I keep hearing about are asking for more. Could someone explain this one?

There is no explanation beside pure stupidity - best example
is the Loose Change Forum: They all cry because their lost
rights, free speech and so on but on the other side they ban
you if you speak too free... :boggled: :D

[The Demon's Head]

There is no explanation beside pure stupidity - best example
is the Loose Change Forum: They all cry because their lost
rights, free speech and so on but on the other side they ban
you if you speak too free... :boggled: :D

I find that to be hilarious.

[Oliver]

I find that to be hilarious.

*lol* You wouldn´t think so after your fortieth ban... :D Okay,
just kidding - it IS hilarious. :D

[Quad4_72]

You would also think that since the government has a hand in so many conspiracies, they would have a completely seperate branch of government devoted strictly to coming up with conspiracies. Do the CTs have any idea the amount of planning and complete silence of everyone involved that it would take to successfully complete one of these conspiracies? It kind of blows your mind when you think about it.

[The Doc]

There was a thread on abovetopsecret.com a while ago about this. A clever critical thinker started up a thread simply titled "Out of all the rights you've lost from 9/11 - Which one do you miss the most?".

The answers were pretty ammusing. Stuff like "We know you're just trying to make us look stupid" and then ranging to stuff like "Having to wait 30 minutes longer at an airport". Then there were another few critical thinkers respoding with stuff like "Not being able to train in Afghanistan without the annoying FBI questioning me", "Not being able to play around with car bombs", "The fact I can no longer call Bin Laden on cold nights" and all that kind of stuff. :)

[Axiom_Blade]

Streisand and her husband are two. I'd add the Loose Change crew, too.

Some of these people aren't anti-GOVERNMENT, they're just anti-BUSH. They just believe the 9-11 CTs because they hate the president.

Then, there's guys like Alex Jones that would believe a Clinton CT, a Bush CT, any CT, because he hates all government and is...well...crazy. How some liberals can listen to Jones and think that he's on their side involves some kind of doublethink I don't care to contemplate.

[Quad4_72]

There was a thread on abovetopsecret.com a while ago about this. A clever critical thinker started up a thread simply titled "Out of all the rights you've lost from 9/11 - Which one do you miss the most?".

The answers were pretty ammusing. Stuff like "We know you're just trying to make us look stupid" and then ranging to stuff like "Having to wait 30 minutes longer at an airport". Then there were another few critical thinkers respoding with stuff like "Not being able to train in Afghanistan without the annoying FBI questioning me", "Not being able to play around with car bombs", "The fact I can no longer call Bin Laden on cold nights" and all that kind of stuff. :)

Haha. Thats good stuff. I like the one about Bin Laden.

[delphi_ote]

There was a thread on abovetopsecret.com a while ago about this. A clever critical thinker started up a thread simply titled "Out of all the rights you've lost from 9/11 - Which one do you miss the most?".
That is pure genius. Who was this masked skeptic? They deserve a medal!

[MarkyX]

Some of these people aren't anti-GOVERNMENT, they're just anti-BUSH. They just believe the 9-11 CTs because they hate the president.

Then, there's guys like Alex Jones that would believe a Clinton CT, a Bush CT, any CT, because he hates all government and is...well...crazy. How some liberals can listen to Jones and think that he's on their side involves some kind of doublethink I don't care to contemplate.

Yep. From what I understand about 9/11 Deniers, they don't really care who they side with, as long as they look like they have support then it's all good.

Just look at American Free Press. Sure, it might be owned by some neo-nazis and holocaust deniers, but at least it makes the theories "seem real"

[Larry Lovage]

I've been in arguments with Truthers who have accused me of being "fascist" and "a right winger". Then they post a video of one of their "credible" truthers like Aaron Russo ("During his career in the entertainment industry, Russo was manager for Bette Midler from 1972 to 1979 and The Manhattan Transfer, and the producer of the films The Rose and Trading Places. He also produced Wise Guys. His most recent film is a documentary - From Freedom to Fascism
") - I commented that you could hardly beat Bette Midler's agent for credibility - and it turns out that he's a 16th Amendment tax protester (www.freedomtofascism.com (http://www.freedomtofascism.com)) . I'm quite certain that half the twoof community does not even realise that they're in bed with redneck NRA survivalist types.

[delphi_ote]

This has always been the most bizarre part about the Truth Movement to me. As has been mentioned, we have redneck NRA survivalist types in bed with full blown anti-semites, neo-nazis, and Holocaust deniers. But we also have ALF anti-globalization anarchist types; Jesus freaks who think the U.S. government is The Beast and the conspiracy is the beginning of The Tribulation and support Israel; the occational New Age UFO lunatic; Islamic extremists; anti-Islamic extremists; peace activist vegans; racist homophobics...

If they all had any sense of shame, all the hypocracy of these idealogically opposed factions allied would induce suicidal levels of humiliation. Fortunately for them, none of them are capable of the logic necessary to see the contradiction in their position. They can all hang out together because their paranoia is stronger than their reason.

The Truth movement really proves a point I made years ago: the political spectrum is a loop. If you go so far to either side, you meet together in the same lunatic place.

[The Demon's Head]

I believe that the hatred for Bush is fueling many of these 9/11 conspiracy theories. It will be interesting to see that once Bush leaves office that if any of the 9/11 conspiracy theories will dissipate. I'm doubtful of that though. It seems we may be dealing with these theories for quite a while.

[T.A.M.]

The "theories" will remain, as will their die hards, but the "movement", if one can call it that, will all but disipate come Nov 2008.

TAM

[The Demon's Head]

The only movement they have been able to accomplish is going backwards. Their so-called truth movement has been counterproductive.

[The Demon's Head]

And another thing I'd like to add, Bush doesn't care about all the conspiracy theories. The man has made fun of himself so why would he care about what the CTist think of him.

[R.Mackey]

There was a thread on abovetopsecret.com a while ago about this. A clever critical thinker started up a thread simply titled "Out of all the rights you've lost from 9/11 - Which one do you miss the most?".

The answers were pretty ammusing. Stuff like "We know you're just trying to make us look stupid" and then ranging to stuff like "Having to wait 30 minutes longer at an airport". Then there were another few critical thinkers respoding with stuff like "Not being able to train in Afghanistan without the annoying FBI questioning me", "Not being able to play around with car bombs", "The fact I can no longer call Bin Laden on cold nights" and all that kind of stuff. :)

Yup.

Really quite unfortunate, however, since there are several profound changes of policy stemming from Sept. 11th, in my opinion grave errors, that deserve discussion and vigilance. I refer to Camp X-Ray, the "torture memos," revision of habeus corpus, "renditions" to questionable governments, etc. All of which is fodder for the Politics forum, of course.

Yet the Conspiracy folks somehow miss the point, wrapped up in their own delusions, ignoring real dangers and Constitutional crises in favor of fantasy ones like Bohemian Grove. Even when they're right, they're still wrong.

[Dog Town]

There was a thread on abovetopsecret.com a while ago about this. A clever critical thinker started up a thread simply titled "Out of all the rights you've lost from 9/11 - Which one do you miss the most?".

"Of All The Liberties You Have Lost, Because Of The 911 Conspiracy. Which One Do You Miss The Most?"
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread220803/pg1
FLMAO! That was me under the name Duhh! Right around the time I found this place. It was when I first got sucked, into this Ct-arama. OverLord was not fond of me, and promptly banned me.
There wasn't a civil liberty listed, amongst all the gibberish. That place has quite the den of Koo Koos. They have a 12 page thread, and getting longer, about OBL being tracked down on Myspace, and arrested in Brooklyn! Hysterical stuff...*sigh*

[maccy]

Yup.

Really quite unfortunate, however, since there are several profound changes of policy stemming from Sept. 11th, in my opinion grave errors, that deserve discussion and vigilance. I refer to Camp X-Ray, the "torture memos," revision of habeus corpus, "renditions" to questionable governments, etc. All of which is fodder for the Politics forum, of course.

Yet the Conspiracy folks somehow miss the point, wrapped up in their own delusions, ignoring real dangers and Constitutional crises in favor of fantasy ones like Bohemian Grove. Even when they're right, they're still wrong.

I agree that there are concerns and, of course, there are organisations such as Amnesty, Human Rights Watch and the ACLU campaigning on these issues. And that's before you start to consider the various Peace campaigns that don't require a 9/11 CT as the basis for their beliefs.

CTers, seem to revel in all of this more than encouraging people to do anything about it. Its like they want feel they are being persecuted by an evil government - it makes them feel special and rebellious. If anything they are building up the idea of a powerful government that we can't do anything about.

This is one of the things that annoys me most about Truthers - they prefer whining and concocting bizarre fantasies to genuine political engagement. By encouraging this they are simply reinforcing the power of the government.

They've been posted before, but here a couple of articles offering a leftist critique of the "Truth" Movement:

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn11282006.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/jw11282006.html

[brodski]

This has always been the most bizarre part about the Truth Movement to me. As has been mentioned, we have redneck NRA survivalist types in bed with full blown anti-semites, neo-nazis, and Holocaust deniers. But we also have ALF anti-globalization anarchist types; Jesus freaks who think the U.S. government is The Beast and the conspiracy is the beginning of The Tribulation and support Israel; the occational New Age UFO lunatic; Islamic extremists; anti-Islamic extremists; peace activist vegans; racist homophobics...

If they all had any sense of shame, all the hypocracy of these idealogically opposed factions allied would induce suicidal levels of humiliation. Fortunately for them, none of them are capable of the logic necessary to see the contradiction in their position. They can all hang out together because their paranoia is stronger than their reason.

The Truth movement really proves a point I made years ago: the political spectrum is a loop. If you go so far to either side, you meet together in the same lunatic place.

I have often wondered at this too, but I think the truth movement gets over this issue by focusing on their common ground, not their differences. I mean, the whole of the truth movement can agree that Bush is a fascist* and that that's bad, which brings them together.
What they don't dwell on is that half of the movement thinks that this is bad because, you know, fascism is well, um, bad. And the other half think this is bad because he's the wrong kind of fascist.
In a twisted way I can't blame them for seeing past their political differences. I mean, if you real really believed that Bush was the head of a massive conspiracy hell bent on world domination and quite prepared to murder his own citizens to do this wouldn't you accept any support you could get?
Let's face it 9/11 was such a horrific attack that the US government and its allies (including my own government) have made deals with some of the most brutal dictatorships in the world in order to prevent another attack, and although it stick in my throat a little to say it I think these alliances are necessary. And if I truly believed that 9/11 was an inside job, and that we're all headed to FEMA concentration camps, I'd hold my nose and side with the far right too.

*I said they believe that Bush is a fascist, I don't.

[Firestone]

I see our movement increasingly crystalizing into a very powerful rational framework for the effective interpretation of modern history. It's becoming an intellectual persuit that is in diametric opposition to the pap being fed the masses by the PTB controlled MSM. The official story is precipatating a dumbing down of the populace, while 9/11 truth is evoking a smartening up, and a great RISE in increasing civil conscious awareness. I think the establishment has lost it's grip on history and reality, and that it will be marginzalized and discredited unless it begins to talk about the unspeakable truth. 2007 will I believe, represent a great shift in awareness, about this entire episode of historic insanity, which begins and ends with 9/11 truth vs the 9/11 myth, and the Big Lie. The more they attempt to continue to justify their ****ed up foreign policy position based on 9/11, the faster the lies surrounding it will unravel. I do hope that 2007, and 2008 represents the years of the whistleblowers, now that the whole climate has been irrevocably altered.

It's one historical worldview competing with another now, and our view is based in reality moreso than theirs, even by an infinite degree. I believe that the next generation will expose 9/11, if the present one does not. Either way we win, and time and history is decidedly on our side.

Best,

Arrowhead (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=2052&view=findpost&p=10873707)Some sense of reality ... :eye-poppi