Delusion and CT

[Deus Ex Machina]

I was talking with a friend the other day and sounding off about the CT idiots. You know, the usual stuff about how they cannot actually admit an error or a correction, how they are always poised to jump at any straw which reinforces their delusion and he said something which I had never thought of before:

"Do you seriously think that you can convince a schizophrenic that their delusions are unreal just by talking to them?"

and I suddenly realized why these CT threads get exhausting. You cannot cure these poor delusional people with facts or argumentation. About the only thing I think we can do is suggest that the CTers get some professional treatment.

[Architect]

I reckon we're the delusional ones for arguing with the daft eejits.

But as someone else said on this thread, we'll never disuade the CT mob but we WILL change the mind of the fence sitters who read the board......

[Mobyseven]

I reckon we're the delusional ones for arguing with the daft eejits.

But as someone else said on this thread, we'll never disuade the CT mob but we WILL change the mind of the fence sitters who read the board......

Mmm...always remember the debunking is done for the lurkers, not for the crazies.

To use an (extreme) example - we aren't trying to cure AIDS, we're just telling the people who aren't infected not have unprotected sex with sufferers.

[CHF]

I dunno about everyone else here, but I debunk twoofers for 2 reason

a) it's fun watching them tie themselves into logical knots

b) to prevent other people within earshot of falling for the same silly nonsence

I long ago gave up trying to change twoofers. Their belief is based entirely on emotion and WANTING desperately to believe. Nothing more. Any semi-logical person after being disproven time and time again will stop, step back, and try to figure out where they're going wrong.

Twoofers just carry on without so much as a flinch, so strong is their desire to be a member of the chosen few lucky enough to see what us poor sheeple do not.

[beachnut]

The biggest delusion they suffer is that there is some official story. I wish one CT idiot would post the official story. It would be nice if they could post the CT story. One single CT story that all of the CT guys agree on.

But posting some alternative ideas on the CT delusional ideas will help those looking around do their own research and stop being lazy enough to fall for lies and fantasy.

[Architect]

Deleted: All in Bad Taste

[Kiwiwriter]

Is to keep them from converting folks who are wavering, undecided, or unknowing. The truth does not fight for itself. It must have champions.

Exposing the CTers as the fools, ideologues, cranks, nuts, cynics, dummies, psychotics, and jesters that they are is a necessity to uphold the truth.

In the case of 9/11, it is also to honor and defend the memory of those whose lives were brutally cut down that day. CTers disrespect and abuse the dead for their own narrow agendas. For that cause alone, they must be fought.

[hellaeon]

Its easy for someone so bored with life and seeing no meaning in their own to suddenly feel like a rebel soldier at the head of a future uprising thats always just about to happen. Its been like this for years. Endless conspiracies about secret governments and a bunch of lesser likes going into bat to try and create the resistance. Some of these people genuinely are delusional, others do it as their kind of teenage anarchy syndrome kind of thing. (Thats what I think bermas and avery are doing) Some do it semmingly because they are just so desperate for power and recognition they feel they deserve (Jones, fetzer, wood - qualified graduates, obviously bad in their own fields despite all the years of study).

Where my band jams the guy who owns it is a classic 'jews run everything' etc kind of bloke. Seems to have a huge distrust of anything authoritive including all acedamia. He has always gone on about secret governments etc. He is over 40 now. The way I handle him is debate, other times I just walk away and just go 'really? spun out...' so I dont just explode. There is a point when you know someone is just way beyond and no matter how much you prove to them they are paranoid and just wrong, they will always go back to that comfort zone.

Spinning Thoughts.

[tsig]

Twoofers just carry on without so much as a flinch, so strong is their desire to be a member of the chosen few lucky enough to see what us poor sheeple do not.


Yes, it is a great boost to the ego to be one of the few, the proud, and the smartest, able to refute all those sheeple by a simple assertion.

It's the same with all True Believers, no matter if it is 911, Bigfeet, UFO's or the bible.

( I know: Bigfoot, but all mammels come in pairs so there must be at least two of them; I think the minimum for a viable group is about 25)

[Kiwiwriter]

Its easy for someone so bored with life and seeing no meaning in their own to suddenly feel like a rebel soldier at the head of a future uprising thats always just about to happen. Its been like this for years. Endless conspiracies about secret governments and a bunch of lesser likes going into bat to try and create the resistance. Some of these people genuinely are delusional, others do it as their kind of teenage anarchy syndrome kind of thing. (Thats what I think bermas and avery are doing) Some do it semmingly because they are just so desperate for power and recognition they feel they deserve (Jones, fetzer, wood - qualified graduates, obviously bad in their own fields despite all the years of study).

Where my band jams the guy who owns it is a classic 'jews run everything' etc kind of bloke. Seems to have a huge distrust of anything authoritive including all acedamia. He has always gone on about secret governments etc. He is over 40 now. The way I handle him is debate, other times I just walk away and just go 'really? spun out...' so I dont just explode. There is a point when you know someone is just way beyond and no matter how much you prove to them they are paranoid and just wrong, they will always go back to that comfort zone.

Spinning Thoughts.

Yes, that's true...they all believe that the great explosion is "just about to happen," and whatever they see in the news is merely the warning of this impending doom. I've read their propaganda over the years, and Armageddon is always nigh.

The interesting thing is that they have no idea of how they're going to actually take power in the chaos they think is about to ensue. I guess they figure they'll just be carried into the White House on the shoulders of their cheering supporters.

Belief that the end is near is as old as humanity, and with these guys, it's important to them...it gives them a sense of importance that they would otherwise lack in real life. In real life, they're wacko conspiracy nutters in their parents' basement. In their fantasy world, they're the advancing warriors of the avenging army of the truth and the Lord, about to wage the final battle for world supremacy against the absolute forces of evil. Makes life romantic and exciting...and more fun than arguing with the folks at the welfare office about getting more money.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I came across a quote on Digg. It was made in the context of a religious argument, but I think it holds fairly well for any faith-based arguments...

You CANNOT reason a person OUT of position that they did not REASON themselves into.

[The Doc]

Digg is an awesome site. Nice quote too :)

Reflection will make some of our CT friends realize they were wrong. The rest don't have the ability to reflect and change their opinion.

In other words - they will only learn and research what contributes to their already formed opinion.

[Myriad]

Mmm...always remember the debunking is done for the lurkers, not for the crazies.

So are you telling me that there are "lurkers" we cannot see or hear, who watch everything we post? And that our ultimate purpose is to strive to be judged favorably by these invisible "lurkers"?

But I thought skepticism wasn't a religion!

Respectfully,
Myriad

[maccy]

I think that believing a CT is not necessarily a delusion, it's possible that it results form a ignorance of the subject leading to finding the conspiracy theory apparently convincing. Once the conviction is there, the believer may well find a challenge to their ego to reconsider and is quite probably disinclined to do the work of assessing all the evidence. I think this is more like to be true of the younger Truthers. Even very clever teenagers can be convinced that their first intuition about something is right (in fact their very cleverness can reinforce this) because they simply haven't had the experiences that give them pause. Also, younger people tend to seek assurance through certainties and a sense of belonging through a tribe-like association (hence any number of pointless arguments about music). The fact is that most people grow out of this eventually, and I'm sure that the counter-arguments that they used to dismiss can help with that.

Our very own JAStewart (http://electionnightspecial.blogspot.com/) is one person who's made the journey from denier to debunker. I think for a lot of others the journey will be slower and more painful, but I think all the arguments and the papers will eventually help.

Anybody over thirty is more likely to be a dead loss, however.

[LashL]

bump

[Pardalis]

I wonder, in the 9/11 CT world, who is knowingly lying, and who is completely delusional?

There's a fuzzy line between the two.

[Oliver]

I wonder, in the 9/11 CT world, who is knowingly lying, and who is completely delusional?

There's a fuzzy line between the two.

Once you think the evil Gubmint controls your mind, there
is no way out of this paranoia... :covereyes

[Pardalis]

Maye the ones who knowingly lie do so to keep their delusion alive, or some lie because they can't accept that they were wrong. Others like Alex jones lie because they have a political agenda.

[The_Fire]

I mainly follow the conspiracy threads for training in debating tactics and evidence evaluation. Which of cause boils do looking more at the JREF'ers approach instead of the Toother approach since Toothers seems to go "waaaah" like a bunch of babies when faced with opposition.....

[jhunter1163]

I wonder, in the 9/11 CT world, who is knowingly lying, and who is completely delusional?

There's a fuzzy line between the two.

That's a good question. I'd guess that Avery and Fetzer are knowingly lying, and Bermas, Rowe, S. Jones, Reynolds and Wood are delusional.

Christophera is not of this earth.

The bulk of the posters at LC are misguided or delusional, as are, it goes without saying, those Twoofers who venture here.

[maccy]

Why do you think Fetzer is knowingly lying? It doesn't seem to me that he has much to gain from his JFK and 9/11 "research".

[Oliver]

Why do you think Fetzer is knowingly lying? It doesn't seem to me that he has much to gain from his JFK and 9/11 "research".

Not if you try to break "the world record in
getting called "being a nut" in national TV". :boxedin:

[Brainster]

Why do you think Fetzer is knowingly lying? It doesn't seem to me that he has much to gain from his JFK and 9/11 "research".

It gets him on TV and radio shows, and potentially sells DVDs, books and also generates personal appearance fees--IIRC when he appeared in Tucson they charged $10 for tickets, a healthy percentage of which I'm sure went into his pocket.

On some stuff I'd guess he's sincere but nutty; however on most of it I think he's just another snake oil salesman. He shows no interest in correcting errors (he still repeats the claim about the CVR overhearing the passengers on Flight 93 plotting to use the drink cart as a battering ram, despite this mistake having been pointed out many times to him), and he endorses the kookiest stuff perhaps in the realization that the profit potential from lunatic stuff like the Star Wars Beam Weapon is greater than that of pushing thermite/thermate.

On the topic of the OP, I have pretty much given up on converting a significant number of the Deniers. Sure, maybe one or two will cross over to the bright side, but many will simply resort to the old standby that evidence against the 9-11 CT is evidence of the coverup.

BTW, the quote about not reasoning a man out of something he was never reasoned into is from Swift IIRC.

[maccy]

It gets him on TV and radio shows, and potentially sells DVDs, books and also generates personal appearance fees--IIRC when he appeared in Tucson they charged $10 for tickets, a healthy percentage of which I'm sure went into his pocket.

On some stuff I'd guess he's sincere but nutty; however on most of it I think he's just another snake oil salesman. He shows no interest in correcting errors (he still repeats the claim about the CVR overhearing the passengers on Flight 93 plotting to use the drink cart as a battering ram, despite this mistake having been pointed out many times to him), and he endorses the kookiest stuff perhaps in the realization that the profit potential from lunatic stuff like the Star Wars Beam Weapon is greater than that of pushing thermite/thermate.

If he was a wannabe film-maker or a radio host that would make sense, but he had a successful academic career until very recently (when he retired). Is funding in American academia really so bad that you can make more money in a fringe political movement?

My guess is that the power trip is so attractive to him that he is not really interested in questioning the movement.