Common Sense

[babazaroni]

David James,

If you can prove to me that you don't cash a government paycheck... than I will seriously consider leaving the truth movement. (No sarcasm please... I want a serious reply... I'm not saying you are disinfo... just that you are an employee of the government in some shape or form)

Thank you.

Are you worth giving up personal info for?

[T.A.M.]

why would you suspect David James as a Disinfo agent, and not me, or anyone else on this board.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that I do not work for the govt, although I am paid by them...only because I am a Canadian Physician, and we are paid by our provincial, and indirectly, Federal Govt.

So am I a disinfo agent working for the govt also...please say yes so that I can confirm, for myself, your paranoid insanity.

TAM:)

[Skibum]

how do you prove a negative?

As I understand it DJ gets paid cash under the table, no check cashing involved. Guess its time to consider leaving the truth movement.

[The Doc]

David James,

If you can prove to me that you don't cash a government paycheck... than I will seriously consider leaving the truth movement. (No sarcasm please... I want a serious reply... I'm not saying you are disinfo... just that you are an employee of the government in some shape or form)

Thank you.

If you can prove to me that he does cash a government paycheck... than I will seriously consider joining the truth movement. (No sarcasm please... I want a serious reply... I'm not saying he's not disinfo... just that he is not an employee of the government in some shape or form).

Ah the burden of proof, such a wonderful thing.

[28th Kingdom]

so are you implying that if theres nothing around to be visibly affected wind and magnetic fields dont exist?

Nothing exists until observed. If you can scientifically measure something i.e. magnetic fields... than you can prove it exists to the senses.


again, not all microwaves produce heat in an object, do they not exist? (and wtf are you living "off the grid" or something? everyone owns a microwave)No, I only eat whole unprocessed foods... mostly raw and organic. I would advise you do the same... lest you risk losing brain cells.


do you hear the radio waves, or the sound waves after they are converted by a speaker?The speaker doesn't convert the wave into audio...it's actually the receiver. Hey, I think I'm starting to catch on to this left-brain debunking game. SCORE!!

maybe we are all just figments of your imagination, maybe your asleep and dreaming all of thisLife is but a dream... now get to rowing your boat... gently... down the stream.

[DavidJames]

David James,

If you can prove to me that you don't cash a government paycheck... than I will seriously consider leaving the truth movement. (No sarcasm please... I want a serious reply... I'm not saying you are disinfo... just that you are an employee of the government in some shape or form)

Thank you.
I can't provide any more serious of a reply then this. Please seek medical attention.

[28th Kingdom]

why would you suspect David James as a Disinfo agent, and not me, or anyone else on this board.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that I do not work for the govt, although I am paid by them...only because I am a Canadian Physician, and we are paid by our provincial, and indirectly, Federal Govt.

So am I a disinfo agent working for the govt also...please say yes so that I can confirm, for myself, your paranoid insanity.

TAM:)

I don't claim everyone is a gov employee... because... I have a strong intuitive sense... which allows me to tell you all apart. DJ works for the government... I would bet my house on it.

[DavidJames]

No, I only eat whole unprocessed foods... mostly raw and organic. I would advise you do the same... lest you risk loosing brain cells.Spelling on the other hand...

[defaultdotxbe]

Nothing exists until observed. If you can scientifically measure something i.e. magnetic fields... than you can prove it exists to the senses.
hmm,. maybe he does know who schrodinger is


No, I only eat whole unprocessed foods... mostly raw and organic. I would advise you do the same... lest you risk loosing brain cells.
hey, your the one who misspelled losing (and dont bother pointing out my use of the homonym your instead of you're, im lazy when typing)


The speaker doesn't convert the wave into audio...it's actually the receiver. Hey, I think I'm starting to catch on to this left-brain debunking game. SCORE!!
the receiver converts it to an electric impulse, but you cant hear that either, the speaker makes it into audio
POINT OVERTURNED! 5 YARD PENALTY!!!!

[DavidJames]

why would you suspect David James as a Disinfo agent, and not me, or anyone else on this board.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that I do not work for the govt, although I am paid by them...only because I am a Canadian Physician, and we are paid by our provincial, and indirectly, Federal Govt.

So am I a disinfo agent working for the govt also...please say yes so that I can confirm, for myself, your paranoid insanity.

TAM:)Do I get an official NWO badge? While I like my JDX avatar, since 28IQ has uncovered my true profession, I would like to proudly display it.

Oh and 28IQ - I hope you aren't as careless with your betting in the real world as you are here in your little fantasy world.

[28th Kingdom]

the receiver converts it to an electric impulse, but you cant hear that either, the speaker makes it into audio
POINT OVERTURNED! 5 YARD PENALTY!!!!

Main Entry: re·ceiv·er http://m-w.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?receiv04.wav=receiver%27%29)
Pronunciation: ri-'sE-v&r
Function: noun

d : a device for converting signals (as electromagnetic waves) into audio or visual form: as (1) : a device in a telephone for converting electric impulses or varying current into sound

The receiver converts the waves into audio dear boy... the speaker merely magnifies the sounds to a level perceivable to our ears.

DOH!

[T.A.M.]

techinically Def is right.

Def said it turns the signal into an electrical impulse, which it does. It is actually the speaker and its physical properties that turns in into "audio". The reciever, without a mechanical "audio wave" producing device, can't really provide us with anything the human ear can hear, which is what audio is.

I suppose it is nitpicking, but an "amplifier" is techinically what "amplifies" the signal, that is then converted into an "audio" waveform via the speaker, which the human ear can pick up.

TAM:)

[Mr.D]

I can't see wind either... but I can see the effects of wind... same with the magnets... Aw, man did I get you on that one or what?


Oh, so the fact that you can see "the effects of wind" (but not the wind itself) is sufficient to "prove" the existence of wind to you?


Are you serious? Who uses a microwave to cook food... maybe this is part of your problem... besides we can sense the effects of the microwaves on the physical world i.e. heat


Ok, so you agree that observation of the effect of something that cannot be detected directly by your five senses is sufficient to establish the existence of the thing that cannot be detected?

Then why is it that you cannot accept that centuries of recursive observation, hypothesis, experiment and refinement have established definitively that the relevant laws of nature applicable to the collapse of the Twin Towers on 9/11 are well understood by science and well modeled by known applied mathematics? Tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of very bright and well trained individuals have independantly observed and studied the effects of the airplanes that hit the WTC.

Their conclusion is that the "scientific laws" you laughably misinterpret, misapply and wilfully ignore when it's inconvenient to you are all perfectly consistent with the so called "Official Theory," without having to invent anything crazy (Controlled Explosives) , imaginary ("Star Wars" weapons / holograms) or paranormal (UFOs).

This is EXACTLY analagous to your implicit conclusion that it is not necessary to invent telepathy, illuminati or giant invisible green space lizards to explain magnets, microwave ovens or cell phones.


By the way ...


I don't even understand this one...the waves are perceived with hearing.


Are you claiming to HEAR RADIO WAVES?

[T.A.M.]

That explains his frustration and near paranoia...all the noise, noise, noise (picture the grinch). Can you imagine if you had to live life hearing all the radio waves in the air....damn.

TAM:)

[defaultdotxbe]

techinically Def is right.

Def said it turns the signal into an electrical impulse, which it does. It is actually the speaker and its physical properties that turns in into "audio". The reciever, without a mechanical "audio wave" producing device, can't really provide us with anything the human ear can hear, which is what audio is.

I suppose it is nitpicking, but an "amplifier" is techinically what "amplifies" the signal, that is then converted into an "audio" waveform via the speaker, which the human ear can pick up.

TAM:)
all depends on how you look at it, maybe 28th can hear electricity, maybe thats his 6th sense

(i can hear the tv in the next room, even if the cable box is off and its not getting any signal)

[defaultdotxbe]

That explains his frustration and near paranoia...all the noise, noise, noise (picture the grinch). Can you imagine if you had to live life hearing all the radio waves in the air....damn.

TAM:)
wonder if he can hear the big bang, this could be worth some scientific inquiry....can we disect him?

[T.A.M.]

The ear actually works the opposite way, converting a sound wave, a mechanical wave, into an electrical signal that is then sent to the brain, for processing and analysis.

Without the Tympanic membrane, to move in and out as the wave bounces off of it, we would hear nothing.

TAM:)

[defaultdotxbe]

The ear actually works the opposite way, converting a sound wave, a mechanical wave, into an electrical signal that is then sent to the brain, for processing and analysis.

Without the Tympanic membrane, to move in and out as the wave bounces off of it, we would hear nothing.

TAM:)
you and your physician speak, just call it an eardrum!

[T.A.M.]

otay...eardwum...huhuhuh..

TAM:)

[LashL]

I don't claim everyone is a gov employee... because... I have a strong intuitive sense... which allows me to tell you all apart. DJ works for the government... I would bet my house on it.

Please prove that you own a house.

From everything you've posted here, the smart money says you're bunking in your parents' basement.














Edit to add: and then get back to answering R. Mackey's posts that you promised to do several pages ago, just before you ran away from them yet again.

[28th Kingdom]

Oh, so the fact that you can see "the effects of wind" (but not the wind itself) is sufficient to "prove" the existence of wind to you?

Yes it is.


Ok, so you agree that observation of the effect of something that cannot be detected directly by your five senses is sufficient to establish the existence of the thing that cannot be detected?Yes it does.


Then why is it that you cannot accept that centuries of recursive observation, hypothesis, experiment and refinement have established definitively that the relevant laws of nature applicable to the collapse of the Twin Towers on 9/11 are well understood by science and well modeled by known applied mathematics? Tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of very bright and well trained individuals have independantly observed and studied the effects of the airplanes that hit the WTC.It's not that I can't accept any certain laws...it's that I can't accept/sense/perceive how these laws are applied to the WTC collapses... and apparently, neither can NIST, since they refuse to do produce something as standard as a visual simulation for their work.


Their conclusion is that the "scientific laws" you laughably misinterpret, misapply and wilfully ignore when it's inconvenient to you are all perfectly consistent with the so called "Official Theory," without having to invent anything crazy (Controlled Explosives) , imaginary ("Star Wars" weapons / holograms) or paranormal (UFOs).NIST's theories about the WTC collapses are laughable. And, just because I disagree with them doesn't make them laughable... if they had some solid ideas going on, than yea - I would say... I don't believe that's what happened, but hey... it's a nice theory. However, seeing as how they spent years investigating collapses... and seeing has how their report isn't even about the collapses but about the initiation of the collapses... well, then - I think you can see where I'm going with this. NIST doesn't even have a theory of how the actual collapses occurred.

They have some vague statements...but they don't detail the events of the collapses... and they certainly don't address how all of the 37 non-severed (running from the base through the impact floors and up through the upper floors) core columns in WTC 2, all managed to fail in the span of a second...after the outer columns failed... or how they managed to continually fail all the way to the ground. P.S. Controlled explosives are crazy? Yea, I know... there is no proof that controlled explosives can take down large buildings... no sensory proof at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGsNADQicgc


This is EXACTLY analagous to your implicit conclusion that it is not necessary to invent telepathy, illuminati or giant invisible green space lizards to explain magnets, microwave ovens or cell phones.You're losing it, man... and please - take a step back and think before you address me... I don't cater to B.S.

[TjW]

I'm even more fortunate than 28thK. I not only have the intuitive sense, I have the even more useful counterintuitive sense. You know, the one that whispers in your ear, saying: "Do the math on this. A wrong guess could kill you."

[Kage]

While you can prove things that can be measured to exist, disproving a negative is a much harder problem.

Consider this, I submit that sun is not the sun. It is in fact a giant dragon that breathes fire towards the earth, thus obscuring its true dragon nature. This dragon emits neutrinos and magnetic waves as part of its fire breathing process. Can you disprove my theory?

[Mr.D]

Nothing exists until observed. If you can scientifically measure something i.e. magnetic fields... than you can prove it exists to the senses.


(Aside: Did atoms not exist before they were observed?)

Then why can you not accept that the science and mathematics applicable to the collapse of the Twin Towers on 9/11, have been repeatedly, reliably and independantly observed to reflect measurements of real world experiments and events?

In other words


Mackey... don't you understand how abstract your calculations are? In fact... that's a great word to describe all of the verbiage I've heard from NIST and others on here... just abstract data and terms... that cannot be applied to the physical world of sight and sound and/or converted into visual simulations... because they are inconceivable i.e. unimaginable i.e. not plausible.


You are WRONG. The calculations are NOT abstract. They CAN AND ARE applicable to the physical world. The people who have taken the time and resources to do so - NIST - say the initiation of the collapses of WTC1 and WTC2 are reasonably well understood and do not contradict the so called "Official Theory" in any significant detail.

(Logical flaw: Just because they didn't produce a "visual simulation" - I assume by that you mean an animated sequence - doesn't mean they can't)

Now ... back to the topic. Just what is your "Perry Mason" moment with respect to "freefall speeds?"

(Note that you have yet to demonstrate that you understand the difference between the acceleration of an object and its velocity, nor how either relates to freefall, or terminal velocity and how all of that relate to the time it takes a real world object to fall a given distance.)

[ConspiRaider]

I could speculate...one of the 100 different ways they might of executed the demolition... but, of course, I don't know the exact details...

<other stuff in the same post - snipped>

We Truthers... actually adhere to scientific laws, probability, common logic and reason... to piece everything together in a very clear and detailed image of what actually happened on 9/11. We certainly don't throw our hands up in the air and go... 8474 happens man. Planes hit buildings... and now we have three magical collapses... and new laws of physics to document...
Doctor 28IQ, at the very least you could have spread these contradictory statements over 2 posts, and then begged ignorance.

You think it was Beam Weapons, don't you. C'mon, it's just us, the other JREFers are covering their eyes to this thread by now. Admit it, I won't tell a soul, or my name isn't Fetzy Wood. NASA was fooling around with Beam Weapons From The Outer Spaces, trying to burn the paint off half a car and they got careless. Right?

[LashL]

I don't cater to B.S.

You do nothing but spout B.S., 28th.

Now, when are you going to respond to R.Mackey's posts as you promised to do several pages ago?

[28th Kingdom]

Doctor 28IQ, at the very least you could have spread these contradictory statements over 2 posts, and then begged ignorance.

You think it was Beam Weapons, don't you. C'mon, it's just us, the other JREFers are covering their eyes to this thread by now. Admit it, I won't tell a soul, or my name isn't Fetzy Wood. NASA was fooling around with Beam Weapons From The Outer Spaces, trying to burn the paint off half a car and they got careless. Right?

You're close to my ignore button... because I hate the obligation of defending myself when someone chooses to distort/misinterpret my words.

The events of 9/11 include more than the collapses... it's the motive, the opportunity, the admitted evidence we have from the Bush administration about facts surrounding 9/11... the documented history of Israel framing Arab Muslims as terrorists... that is the big picture of 9/11. The fact that explosives were used is the big picture... the exact details of how they were used is not.

Of course, your left-brain hates the big picture... you prefer the myopic metaphysical world of speculative details... where you hold complete dominion over all the facts.

[Mr.D]

It's not that I can't accept any certain laws...it's that I can't accept/sense/perceive how these laws are applied to the WTC collapses
[QUOTE]

[QUOTE=28th Kingdom;2236933]
Again... I'm not crazy... I don't cook food with radiation or put things to my head that will fry my brain...


But you can accept/sense/perceive how the laws of electromagetism apply to microwave ovens, cell phones and your brain? I am genuinely curious about this - I can't think of a single person I know who finds electromagnetism as it relates biophysics MORE intuitive than basic mechanics.


... and apparently, neither can NIST, since they refuse to do produce something as standard as a visual simulation for their work.


Are we to interpret this as saying that if NIST (or some other body with the relevant experience, time and resources) were to produce a "visual simulation" that backed the so called "Official Theory," that you'd accept it? And again: just because they haven't (or refuse to according to you), doesn't mean they CAN'T. Do you have any evidence for the assertation that they simply cannot (as opposed to say ... don't have the funding or mandate to do so)




Now ... back to the topic. Just what is your "Perry Mason" moment with respect to "freefall speeds?"

(Note that you have yet to demonstrate that you understand the difference between the acceleration of an object and its velocity, nor how either relates to freefall, or terminal velocity and how all of that relate to the time it takes a real world object to fall a given distance.)

[babazaroni]

You do nothing but spout B.S., 28th.

Now, when are you going to respond to R.Mackey's posts as you promised to do several pages ago?

He won't respond because Mackey works for NASA.

He has an amazing distrust for anyone accepting a government paycheck.

The back of these checks has a statement saying that if you cash the check you give up all rights to independant thought and need to contact the disinfo office for any communication with the public.

[R.Mackey]

He won't respond because Mackey works for NASA.

He has an amazing distrust for anyone accepting a government paycheck.

To be quite pedantic, my paycheck isn't issued by the Government. I only get paid by Uncle Sam when one of my works is published in a Government magazine, as part of the standard royalty agreement. Only a small fraction of the work I do is done directly for NASA, some others for DoD or DoE, some for industry...

Besides, it's quite plain that he couldn't respond if he wanted to.

Nonetheless, I hope others found my explanation useful. I've heard that "nearly free-fall" crap more times than I can count, and it's completely looney, as even the simplest calculation reveals.

[28th Kingdom]

Are we to interpret this as saying that if NIST (or some other body with the relevant experience, time and resources) were to produce a "visual simulation" that backed the so called "Official Theory," that you'd accept it? And again: just because they haven't (or refuse to according to you), doesn't mean they CAN'T. Do you have any evidence for the assertation that they simply cannot (as opposed to say ... don't have the funding or mandate to do so)


Man, I would pay... money - GOOD MONEY to see someone create a visual simulation of the WTC 2 collapse. Wow, that would look so comical... you don't even know.

The simulation would have to show how those 37 non-severed (virtually undamaged) core columns failed (all the way to the ground...in just seconds) and how the walls managed to explode without anything touching them (WTC 2 tilting upper mass)

Don't you understand that the video footage...already proves the NIST theory to be false? NIST would have to tilt the top on WTC 2 in their simulation (because we can see that happened in the real footage) which would reveal the miracle collapse in all its glory.

[Skibum]

[quote=Mr.D;2237113]

Man, I would pay... money - GOOD MONEY to see someone create a visual simulation of the WTC 2 collapse. Wow, that would look so comical... you don't even know.

The simulation would have to show how those 37 non-severed (virtually undamaged) core columns failed (all the way to the ground...in just seconds) and how the walls managed to explode without anything touching them (WTC 2 tilting upper mass)

Don't you understand that the video footage...already proves the NIST theory to be false? NIST would have to tilt the top on WTC 2 in their simulation (because we can see that happened in the real footage) which would reveal the miracle collapse in all its glory.

I'll do it, for 850,000 dollars. probably a bargain for what it would cost the government. We need to set up an account like Mr Randi has for the Challenge, as I doubt your ability to pay. Please PM me if you wish to discuss further details.

[Skibum]

Shall I start working on the contract?

[beachnut]

I don't cater to B.S.

Common Sense ironically tells us you are the personification of BS.

Your destiny is to be BS king of CT loons. The "soup NAZI" was the king of soup gratification or consternation. 28th is the "BS NAZI", the king of BS gratification and consternation. Notwithstanding the colossal simulation of space taking place between your ears, something in you is persistently producing the sensory broadcast for all, clearly sensed by your posts "no facts for you" !!!

[Skibum]

Or are you just lying... again?

[R.Mackey]

Man, I would pay... money - GOOD MONEY to see someone create a visual simulation of the WTC 2 collapse. Wow, that would look so comical... you don't even know.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_919345a1da245e699.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3522)

(Taken from http://www.debunking911.com/collapse.htm, which contains an excellent summary for those, like yourself, who cannot possibly apprehend the entire NIST report.)


The simulation would have to show how those 37 non-severed (virtually undamaged) core columns failed (all the way to the ground...in just seconds) and how the walls managed to explode without anything touching them (WTC 2 tilting upper mass)

Don't you understand that the video footage...already proves the NIST theory to be false? NIST would have to tilt the top on WTC 2 in their simulation (because we can see that happened in the real footage) which would reveal the miracle collapse in all its glory.
The video footage was, indeed, one of the major inputs to the NIST study. You're making stuff up again.

What is it with you Troothers and your aversion to anything that's actually true, anyway?

Despite what you may believe, NIST isn't going to proceed beyond this, for two reasons:


Once collapse starts, the rest is academic. Nobody will ever build a skyscraper that will partially arrest its collapse, so there is nothing to be learned. Building codes are based on preventing collapse, not arresting them.
You can't model the full collapse in any detail anyway. Too many random variables. NIST knows that any such animation would be a guess, and they don't like to guess. They like to present that which they can rigorously estimate.


I know this is too difficult for you as well, so let me give a simple example.

Suppose you throw a six-sided die. Can you predict what side will come up? Just that, a die, an initial six degree-of-freedom state, and a hard, flat, perfect plane below. Can't do it, can you? Nope. Not even with the best computers in the world, not to any usable accuracy.

The WTC collapses are literally billions of times more complicated.

Dynamics are hard to simulate. Dynamics that hit things and spawn additional dynamics, i.e. any error early on leads to greater and greater errors over time, are inherently impossible to simulate, except to pose possible examples of what might happen. Reconstructing what did happen? Impossible.

I fail to see what NIST producing a cartoon for your benefit would achieve, anyway. Real science doesn't depend on cartoons.

[Paul]

The fact that explosives were used is the big picture... the exact details of how they were used is not.So you won't mind showing us the actual evidence for this undisputed fact then.

I know it's a trivial detail, but how do you solve the logistical problems with explosive demolition?

As an example, in February 2006 two 65m tower blocks were demolished in Glasgow. This required 15 explosives experts using 100kg of explosives and 1,900 non-electric detonating charges on buildings that had been soft-stripped and pre-weakened. The twin towers were over 6 times the height and had a much greater footprint than these buildings; how do you suppose over 48500 detonating charges and over 2500kg of explosives were installed and wired together without anyone noticing?

[28th Kingdom]

I'm gonna find the video for freefall. You people think the debris hit the ground first... yet you can't see the tower, because it's obscured by the debris... so how do you know the building was still falling when the debris hit the ground... what from the steel beams sticking up after the dust settled? Yea, cus steel beams are a building... yea, yup...

...yup a couple steel beams are a building...

I really don't know how much time difference there was between the first debris hitting the ground and the buildings hitting the ground... but I know there is video footage, that probably has great angles which will give us a better idea than those overshots. Here is one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAKzhlOdB-I

Notice the band that shows where the first section of the building meets the second section (the WTC towers were each made in three sections) the camera man turns away right before the collapse reaches that point... at this point - the building is 2/3 gone... meaning there is only about 400 feet still standing. If the collapse starts right when this video does... than it took 8 seconds for 2/3 of the building to collapse... meaning it took approx. 12 seconds for the entire thing to go... and according to you all, the collapse was picking up speed from the increasing force of the upper mass... so it might have went in 10 or 11 seconds.

Notice in the video how the falling building is still ahead or even with the debris around it...even down to the last 400 feet. Now, pause the video at 11 seconds in, and notice the debris is already touching the ground... did the debris shoot past the falling building in the last 400 feet or is the building on the ground at this point?

[babazaroni]

The "soup NAZI" was the king of soup gratification or consternation.

Thanks Beach, I've seen that Seinfeld episode many times, and until now did not fully understand that dichotemy.

[Skibum]

I fail to see what NIST producing a cartoon for your benefit would achieve, anyway. Real science doesn't depend on cartoons.

It woulda put 850k in my pocket, thanks. You won't mind if I screw up several of your business proposals would you? :D

[R.Mackey]

Nah, you know he'd have paid you off in tinfoil, copies of Terrorstorm, and surplus ammo...

[Paul]

meaning it took approx. 12 seconds for the entire thing to go... and according to you all, the collapse was picking up speed from the increasing force of the upper mass... so it might have went in 10 or 11 seconds.Which, as has been adequately explained, is quite different to 9.2 seconds.

[28th Kingdom]

(Taken from http://www.debunking911.com/collapse.htm, which contains an excellent summary for those, like yourself, who cannot possibly apprehend the entire NIST report.)

"As I mentioned above, the pancaking happened AFTER the building was on it's way down and therefore NOT part of the NIST investigation. As I mentioned above, the pancaking happened AFTER the building was on it's way down and therefore NOT part of the NIST investigation. The NIST only studied the collapse until "Global collapse was inevitable."

Straight from the horses mouth. NIST didn't even investigate the events of the collapse... they focused entirely on the pre-collapse. Unbelievable. See, they assume the global collapse was inevitable, why... BECAUSE THE BUILDINGS FELL! How blinded can you be... see, that's what happens when you begin your investigation by eliminating suspects i.e. explosives - from your equations.

You wanna talk about FRAUD! NIST didn't even investigate the collapses.

[R.Mackey]

Straight from the horses mouth. NIST didn't even investigate the events of the collapse... they focused entirely on the pre-collapse. Unbelievable. See, they assume the global collapse was inevitable...BECAUSE THE BUILDINGS FELL! How blinded can you be... see, that's what happens when you begin your investigation by eliminating suspects i.e. explosives - from your equations.

You wanna talk about FRAUD! NIST didn't even investigate the collapses.

That's not what that quote means, dummy.

[Skibum]

You people think the debris hit the ground first... yet you can't see the tower, because it's obscured by the debris... so how do you know the building was still falling when the debris hit the ground... what from the steel beams sticking up after the dust settled? Yea, cus steel beams are a building... yea, yup...




http://one.revver.com/watch/?id=59686
You seen this one yet? At 19:42 into the video you will see that you are clearly extremely wrong.

[28th Kingdom]

Wait a second... my last post... really wasn't straight from the horse's mouth. THIS IS STRAIGHT FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH:

"NIST did not describe the specific sequence of events after global collapse initiated. The progression of global collapse was induced by the failure of the supporting structure (columns carry vertical loads; floors hold columns together, they do not carry vertical loads). NIST's investigation focused on the factors that led to the initiation of collapse, rather than the sequence of events after the collapse initiated.

Sincerely,

WTC Investigation Team"

(emphasis added)

http://www.debunking911.com/collapse.htm

FRAUD! They were paid to investigate the collapses... and they didn't even do that... the initiation of the collapse is NOT the collapse... the initiation happens right before the collapse begins... UNBELIEVABLE.

[LashL]

That's not what that quote means, dummy.

28th only posts his BS here so that he can pretend to have a raging clue and so that he can pretend to understand that which he clearly does not, in order that he can then go back to his usual tinhat haunts and say, "oh, look, oh look, oh look how smart i am, see what i wrote over at jref" because the tinhat audience he's pandering to is just as unintelligent and just as clueless as he is.

Pretty sad, really.

[uk_dave]

... that cannot be applied to the physical world of sight and sound and/or converted into visual simulations... because they are inconceivable i.e. unimaginable i.e. not plausible.



YAY! At last 28K is admitting the limits of his imagination!!

There may be hope for him yet

[The Doc]

Wait a second... my last post... really wasn't straight from the horse's mouth. THIS IS STRAIGHT FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH:

"NIST did not describe the specific sequence of events after global collapse initiated. The progression of global collapse was induced by the failure of the supporting structure (columns carry vertical loads; floors hold columns together, they do not carry vertical loads). NIST's investigation focused on the factors that led to the initiation of collapse, rather than the sequence of events after the collapse initiated.

Sincerely,

WTC Investigation Team"

(emphasis added)

http://www.debunking911.com/collapse.htm

FRAUD! They were paid to investigate the collapses... and they didn't even do that... the initiation of the collapse is NOT the collapse... the initiation happens right before the collapse begins... UNBELIEVABLE.

28th this will be hard for you to swallow. So make sure you're sitting down.

The purpose of the NIST investigation was not to satisfy a few conspiracy theorists.

[28th Kingdom]

28th this will be hard for you to swallow. So make sure you're sitting down.

The purpose of the NIST investigation was not to satisfy a few conspiracy theorists.

What was the purpose? To investigate the collapses, right? Did NIST investigate the collapses? Yes or No? We will weed out the real loons with this one... cus we have NIST's statement that says they didn't focus on the events of the actual collapses...

Now... do you see why they refuse to provide a simulation for the collapses? BECAUSE THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT HAPPENED! Here is where the NIST investigation stops:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-RzwmD8uB8g

NIST's report stops RIGHT WHEN THE COLLAPSE BEGINS! HOW convenient!

[uk_dave]

Well, actually...a visual simulation of the WTC collapses would be a good first step. You know... it's only one of the most unique and mysterious structural failures in the history of the world... it would be nice if they (NIST) took the time to demonstrate their theories.

Well actually, no it wouldn't.

NIST isn't actually talking to people such as you, they are talking to professionals within the construction industry.

Provided that the calculations and modelling which NIST has done are accepted by those professionals then there is no need for further exposition.

Just because you lack the imagination and technical expertise to understand what you are being told does not mean that you have a right to have it simplified for you. NIST isn't in the entertainment business and the collapse of the WTC towers on 9/11, along with the deaths of innocent people, is not a suitable subject for your amusement.

[Mr.D]

The simulation would have to show how those 37 non-severed (virtually undamaged) core columns failed (all the way to the ground...in just seconds) and how the walls managed to explode without anything touching them (WTC 2 tilting upper mass)

Don't you understand that the video footage...already proves the NIST theory to be false?


In other words; No.

You demand a standard of evidence be presented to you that you have already rejected. (Although to your credit you did say you'd pay for it.)


We Truthers... actually adhere to scientific laws, probability, common logic and reason...


Actually all you've done is demonstrate that your arguments essentially boil down to "I don't believe the OT, so therefore it must not be true; and since it's untrue the OT must be false and I'm right."

[28th Kingdom]

How many times...have I mentioned the big picture and how you all like to plunder through the murky details? Ever heard this expression:

"Try not to get too bogged down in the details."

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=8586&dict=CALD

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4983462&ft=1&f=1057

"Senior news analyst Daniel Schorr says that the public should not become bogged down in the details of the investigation into who leaked the name of covert CIA agent Valerie Plame." (emphasis added)

[babazaroni]

What was the purpose? To investigate the collapses, right? Did NIST investigate the collapses? Yes or No? We will weed out the real loons with this one... cus we have NIST's statement that says they didn't focus on the events of the actual collapses...


They investigated up and through the moment of disproportionate collapse.

Why do we care where every steel chunk landed on the ground?

Did you think the collapse would magically stop at some point?

Their mandate was to find ways to make buildings safer, not satisfy your fantasies.

Check my signature. Do you agree with RemoveBush?

[Paul]

NIST's report stops RIGHT WHEN THE COLLAPSE BEGINS! HOW convenient!Do you want to know what happened next?

the ...collapse ...continued ...until ...the ...tower ...had ...collapsed, ...when ...it ...stopped.

anything else you don't understand?

[Skibum]

NIST's report stops RIGHT WHEN THE COLLAPSE BEGINS! HOW convenient!

Because it doesn't matter to the people who matter. They already know what happens after global collapse starts. The whole building falls apart.

[28th Kingdom]

In other words; No.

You demand a standard of evidence be presented to you that you have already rejected. (Although to your credit you did say you'd pay for it.)


Actually all you've done is demonstrate that your arguments essentially boil down to "I don't believe the OT, so therefore it must not be true; and since it's untrue the OT must be false and I'm right."

No it boils down to the facts... one of them being that NIST aka the holy bible of how the buildings collapsed... didn't even investigate the collapses.

UK_Dave... shame is upon you for defending the gatekeepers of 9/11. How can you just sit there and turn a blind eye... have you no conscious?

[babazaroni]

How many times...have I mentioned the big picture and how you all like to plunder through the murky details? Ever heard this expression:

"Try not to get too bogged down in the details."


In other words, find the lowest resolution pic, squint and all truth will be revealed.

[Paul]

How many times...have I mentioned the big picture and how you all like to plunder through the murky details?Those details are pesky little buggers aren't they. Minor stuff like you not having any evidence for any of your ideas can easily be dismissed as long as we believe the 'big picture'.

[The Doc]

The NIST wanted to know what caused the building to collapse to prevent it happening in the future.

Once it begins to fall - all bets are off.

[Oliver]

Do you want to know what happened next?

the ...collapse ...continued ...until ...the ...tower ...had ...collapsed, ...when ...it ...stopped.

anything else you don't understand?

I guess he meant a report like this:

...then the 99´th Floor collapsed and then the 98´th, which was a littlebit surprising because the 97 Floor
also collapsed. But lets get back to Floor 96... :rolleyes:

[R.Mackey]

Let's take a poll, shall we?

Which is more important to you? You may only pick one:

Report A: The mechanics of the aircraft hitting the Twin Towers, damage after impact, damage due to fire, gradual weakening of the structure, performance of fire suppression and escape systems, and precise cause of the collapse

Report B: A blow-by-blow account of the Twin Towers coming apart, collapsing on itself, and finally crashing to the ground, including why it took about 15 seconds instead of, say, 20 seconds, and spiffy computer animation showing what it would have looked like without all the dust and debris in the way

28th Kingdom, help me out with this. What, specifically, do you want to know about the WTC collapses that NIST didn't answer? Tell me why you're screaming "Fraud!" at the top of your lungs.

[babazaroni]

No it boils down to the facts... one of them being that NIST aka the holy bible of how the buildings collapsed... didn't even investigate the collapses.


When an aircraft disintegrates in midair, the investigators want to know what started the disintegration, not why all the pieces landed the way the did.

Do you think if they did not determine why all the pieces landed the way they did then they did not investigate?

[Skibum]

I guess he meant a report like this:

...then the 99´th Floor collapsed and then the 98´th, which was a littlebit surprising because the 97 Floor
also collapsed. But lets get back to Floor 96... :rolleyes:

...this mass continued to floor 50 which caused the floor to collapse and the columns to bend, this mass continued to floor 49 which caused the floor to collapse and the columns to bend, this mass continued to floor 48 which caused the floor to collapse and the columns to bend...

[babazaroni]

28th Kingdom, help me out with this. What, specifically, do you want to know about the WTC collapses that NIST didn't answer? Tell me why you're screaming "Fraud!" at the top of your lungs.

He really thinkgs the building would have stopped collapsing at some point.

Hence the need for explosives.

Exactly what RemoveBush believed.

[28th Kingdom]

Do you want to know what happened next?

the ...collapse ...continued ...until ...the ...tower ...had ...collapsed, ...when ...it ...stopped.

anything else you don't understand?

Wowy wow... what does this guy sound like... if not an 8 year old explaining what happened on 9/11. Very scientific... I must say.

BTW... where did the term, "Global Collapse," even originate? Did NIST make up this term? I THINK THEY DID!

Why no global collapse here:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4847/ntp10ini8.jpg

How the heck is that building standing...what about lateral loads and transferring loads...and traverse loads... this must be one magical building.

[uk_dave]

UK_Dave... shame is upon you for defending the gatekeepers of 9/11. How can you just sit there and turn a blind eye... have you no conscious?

My concience is very clear.

I had assumed that the collapse was initiated by the effect of heat on the floor trusses and the additional stress which this put on the connections between the trusses and the outer and inner columns.

NIST has explained and provided evidence which disproves my ad hoc theory because they have established that the outer columns failed first and that this initiated the collapse.

What happens after initiation is something for those of us with a suitable fertile imagination to consider since the data available for a precise description is lacking.

If NIST attempt to describe the complete collapse they would be obliged to identify which column hit which floor plan in what sequence of events all the way down to the ground. This they cannot and should not have to do.

If you want a description of the collapse after initiation read the popular mechanics book.

[Mr.D]

(Note that you have yet to demonstrate that you understand the difference between the acceleration of an object and its velocity, nor how either relates to freefall, or terminal velocity and how all of that relate to the time it takes a real world object to fall a given distance.)



We Truthers... actually adhere to scientific laws, probability, common logic and reason... to piece everything together in a very clear and detailed image of what actually happened on 9/11.


If, as you say you "adhere to scientific laws ..." Then please demonstrate in a clear manner that you have a good grasp of the simplest of scientific DEFINITIONS I have bolded above - if you cannot properly define the terms, you cannot apply the laws.

If you are seriously trying to convince people of the correctness of your argument, IT IS IN YOUR BEST INTEREST TO CONVINCE THEM THAT YOU UNDERSTAND THE SUBJECTS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Changing the subject, attacking strawman positions and obfuscating your points behind irrelevant points of view and asking technical questions while misusing the vocaublary DETRACTS FROM YOUR POSITION.



Now ... back to the topic. Just what is your "Perry Mason" moment with respect to "freefall speeds?"

[beachnut]

We Truthers... actually adhere to scientific laws, probability, common logic and reason... to piece everything together in a very clear and detailed image of what actually happened on 9/11. We certainly don't throw our hands up in the air and go... 8474 happens man. Planes hit buildings... and now we have three magical collapses... and new laws of physics to document...

You sure have fooled all of us. God you are one dumb rule8er!

I have yet to see proof of a truther using science, logic, and reason. I have see probability as in polls being used to prove your truth points. (truthers go "golly we have 86 percent say it was an inside job; we win case close!")

Dr Jones could not get his worked peer reviewed so he opened his own sandbox journal so he could play in the world and call it peer reviewed! Now his stuff is published in the big bathroom peer reviewed journal of all time! Hustler! Congratulations we can see Dr Jones right near a peer review story with photos on anatomy. Truly fantastic. The bare truth with the bare facts.

R Charlie Sheen and Alex Jones are your peers 28th? R you in danger of failing high school!?

[Skibum]

this must be one magical building.

No its just a totally different building design that was damaged differently.

[babazaroni]

Why no global collapse here:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4847/ntp10ini8.jpg

How the heck is that building standing...what about lateral loads and transferring loads...and traverse loads... this must be one magical building.

Different building design. Did not need to be 110 stories.

[Mashuna]

Wowy wow... what does this guy sound like... if not an 8 year old explaining what happened on 9/11. Very scientific... I must say.

BTW... where did the term, "Global Collapse," even originate? Did NIST make up this term? I THINK THEY DID!

Why no global collapse here:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4847/ntp10ini8.jpg

How the heck is that building standing...what about lateral loads and transferring loads...and traverse loads... this must be one magical building.

He's just using common sense! It's obvious that this is what happened, you've just been debunked!

Asking about lateral loads and traverse loads - don't be so left-brained. You need to look at the whole picture. You can't see the wood for the trees.

It's all in the video footage, it started at the top and finished at the end. You can't debunk this, and if you try I'll put you on ignore.

Hey, this arguing like a CTist is easy!

[uk_dave]

Why no global collapse here:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4847/ntp10ini8.jpg

How the heck is that building standing...what about lateral loads and transferring loads...and traverse loads... this must be one magical building.

Once again your lack of imagination lets you down.

You see a picture of a severely damaged building and you imagine that all buildings are constructed in this way, using the same materials, and that if they are damaged then the damage must be like that in your picture.

You then use your 'common sense' approach to extrapolate from this image a scenario whereby the WTC towers (which were not a traditional frame construction and were not reinforced concrete) should have a similar appearance.

Your imagination is lacking 28K.

Badly.

[Oliver]

BTW... where did the term, "Global Collapse," even originate? Did NIST make up this term? I THINK THEY DID!

I also read it on non-wtc sources about collapses, too.
So i guess it´s a standard term.

Partial Collapse: Your Pic
Global Collapse: Towers

Why no global collapse here:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4847/ntp10ini8.jpg

How the heck is that building standing...what about lateral loads and transferring loads...and traverse loads... this must be one magical building.

Your Pic: 11 Stories
WTC: 110 Stories

[ConspiRaider]

You're close to my ignore button... because I hate the obligation of defending myself when someone chooses to distort/misinterpret my words.

The events of 9/11 include more than the collapses... it's the motive, the opportunity, the admitted evidence we have from the Bush administration about facts surrounding 9/11... the documented history of Israel framing Arab Muslims as terrorists... that is the big picture of 9/11. The fact that explosives were used is the big picture... the exact details of how they were used is not.

Of course, your left-brain hates the big picture... you prefer the myopic metaphysical world of speculative details... where you hold complete dominion over all the facts.
No distortion of your words, Doctor 28IQ. Direct quotes from your post.

Try not to use big words such as metaphysical, until you understand exactly what they mean.

No one holds dominion over any facts. Facts simply exist. They are fully discovered, or partially discovered, or not discovered at all - ever.

You really don't know a thing at all about true skepticism, do you? Law enforcement uses our methods, did you know that? If you were in charge of Homicide, you'd pin every single murder in the city on the Mob.

CHIEF 28IQ
A dead guy, huh? It was the Mafia!

NORMAL COP
But Chief, the evidence doesn't lead there at all. Everything we've uncovered points instead to...

CHIEF 28IQ
It was the MAFIA! They're a crime syndicate, yes? They wipe out guys, yes? They do all the crime in this city, yes? We got a wiped out guy in our city, so OF COURSE it's the Mafia! Next case!

It's tough, believe me, to keep politics out of this. But you MUST try. I probably have as much respect for the Bush Administration as you do. Which is exactly why I'd NEVER even hint at accusing them of something this heinous, unless there was no doubt in any reasonable person's mind. That's some of what THEY have done! And here you are, mimicking their methods. Not only do you have to rise above the Bush Administration, you also have to rise above The Twoofers. Neither are interested in honesty. So it's up to you to get there, and we can help. That's why you're here at JREF. We all have to punch down our political leanings when evaluating the discourse of events such as 9/11. Political overtones serve only to distort and obscure.

[The Doc]

BTW... where did the term, "Global Collapse," even originate? Did NIST make up this term? I THINK THEY DID!


You will find this interesting,

NNC Limited was sponsored by the Health & Safety Executive (UK) to conduct finite element analysis to simulate the over-pressurisation tests conducted on a 1/4 scale model of a pre-stressed concrete containment vessel (PCCV) by Sandia National Laboratories. The tests and the results indicated three distinct stages of structural response as the vessel approached its failure load. The first stage was essentially an elastic response. The second stage displayed nonlinear behaviour, which started after onset of substantial concrete cracking and involved local yielding or fracture of structural components. The third stage involved extensive concrete cracking and rapid increase in strains leading to global structural collapse.

Not by NIST. Nothing to do with the WTC's.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V4D-4GNCJ62-2&_coverDate=08%2F31%2F2005&_alid=519581652&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=5756&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=e746c0fb18cc3d5c002ccdf3e4dbb6ce

[Paul]

what does this guy sound like... if not an 8 year old explaining what happened on 9/11. Very scientificI sound like someone try to explain to the hard-of-understanding why their insistence on unnecessary reports is silly. The important things to know are how and why the building failed, not after it had started to fall exactly how did it continue to fall?.

[28th Kingdom]

Let's take a poll, shall we?

Which is more important to you? You may only pick one:

Report A: The mechanics of the aircraft hitting the Twin Towers, damage after impact, damage due to fire, gradual weakening of the structure, performance of fire suppression and escape systems, and precise cause of the collapse

Report B: A blow-by-blow account of the Twin Towers coming apart, collapsing on itself, and finally crashing to the ground, including why it took about 15 seconds instead of, say, 20 seconds, and spiffy computer animation showing what it would have looked like without all the dust and debris in the way

28th Kingdom, help me out with this. What, specifically, do you want to know about the WTC collapses that NIST didn't answer? Tell me why you're screaming "Fraud!" at the top of your lungs.

You want my help? Okay.... since we didn't know what caused the collapses... and since planted explosives had to at least be considered as a potential cause... and since NIST didn't even factor explosives into their equations or theory... well, I would say that if you are working with crippled information... than you will produce crippled results.

NIST had crippled information by failing to include explosives as a possible suspect in their investigation... and as such - they came up with some unbelievable theories which don't even being to explain the most perplexing events of the collapses, namely, the speed at which the buildings fell, the exploding walls with nothing touching them on WTC 2, and the miracle failure of the core columns.

The NIST is nothing but a big whitewash. What a Fraud.

[Oliver]

What was the purpose? To investigate the collapses, right? Did NIST investigate the collapses? Yes or No? We will weed out the real loons with this one... cus we have NIST's statement that says they didn't focus on the events of the actual collapses...

Now... do you see why they refuse to provide a simulation for the collapses? BECAUSE THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT HAPPENED! Here is where the NIST investigation stops:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-RzwmD8uB8g

NIST's report stops RIGHT WHEN THE COLLAPSE BEGINS! HOW convenient!

Hey! This is a pretty good video, thank you.
It also explains the collapse pretty good - what
is your problem with this explanation?

[Skibum]

You want my help? Okay.... since we didn't know what caused the collapses... and since planted explosives had to at least be considered as a potential cause... and since NIST didn't even factor explosives into their equations or theory... well, I would say that if you are working with crippled information... than you will produce crippled results.

NIST had crippled information by failing to include explosives as a possible suspect in their investigation... and as such - they came up with some unbelievable theories which don't even being to explain the most perplexing events of the collapses, namely, the speed at which the buildings fell, the exploding walls with nothing touching them on WTC 2, and the miracle failure of the core columns.

The NIST is nothing but a big whitewash. What a Fraud.

I'm pretty certain they did consider explosives, and upon finding no evidence of their use abandoned that line of investigation. However I don't think they considered alien space beams so I guess you are correct the report is a fraud.

NIST
In summary, NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to Sept. 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers.

[The Doc]

You want my help? Okay.... since we didn't know what caused the collapses... and since planted explosives had to at least be considered as a potential cause... and since NIST didn't even factor explosives into their equations or theory... well, I would say that if you are working with crippled information... than you will produce crippled results.


I'll say it again.

The purpose of the NIST report was not to satisfy conspiracy theorists.

If you don't like it - tough luck.

NIST had crippled information by failing to include explosives as a possible suspect in their investigation... and as such - they came up with some unbelievable theories which don't even being to explain the most perplexing events of the collapses, namely, the speed at which the buildings fell, the exploding walls with nothing touching them on WTC 2, and the miracle failure of the core columns.

I suggest you read this.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass.


The NIST is nothing but a big whitewash. What a Fraud.

Easy to say. Hard to prove. You've proven nothing.

[Curnir]

Wowy wow... what does this guy sound like... if not an 8 year old explaining what happened on 9/11. Very scientific... I must say.


And yet... you don't... seem to... u-n-d-e-r-s-t-a-n-d.

I wonder why.

I wonder why I even bother to write this, seeing as I am on your "dreaded" ignore list...

[ConspiRaider]

And yet... you don't... seem to... u-n-d-e-r-s-t-a-n-d.

I wonder why.

I wonder why I even bother to write this, seeing as I am on your "dreaded" ignore list...
It's for the children! :)

[Oliver]

@28th: You can actually see how the outer columns
are getting pulled inwards:

-5405555553528290546

The same way it is explained in your video:

-RzwmD8uB8g

[Skibum]

@28th: You can actually see how the outer columns
are getting pulled inwards:

-5405555553528290546


Utter nonsense! Thats just hot air distorting the image.

[babazaroni]

@28th: You can actually see how the outer columns
are getting pulled inwards:

-5405555553528290546

The same way it is explained in your video:

-RzwmD8uB8g

Oliver, I showed that to him. He calls it an optical illusion.

Here's his optical illusion post. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2185532#post2185532)

[28th Kingdom]

It's tough, believe me, to keep politics out of this. But you MUST try. I probably have as much respect for the Bush Administration as you do. Which is exactly why I'd NEVER even hint at accusing them of something this heinous, unless there was no doubt in any reasonable person's mind. That's some of what THEY have done! And here you are, mimicking their methods. Not only do you have to rise above the Bush Administration, you also have to rise above The Twoofers. Neither are interested in honesty. So it's up to you to get there, and we can help. That's why you're here at JREF. We all have to punch down our political leanings when evaluating the discourse of events such as 9/11. Political overtones serve only to distort and obscure.

Why do you believe that Americans are unwilling to kill other innocent Americans? Why... when thousands of Americans kill thousands of other innocent Americans every year... do you think these murders are like, "Wait a second... I can't kill you... you're my fellow American."

Here's the problem... if you are a good person (which I would hope you to be) a patriot and an honorable man... than I can understand how it might be hard for you to believe that people are capable of murdering innocent people, whether foreigners or their own countrymen... for sheer profit and greed. Nonetheless, do not project this good-heartedness onto others (especially the extremely elite and powerful) for that is naive of you to think that other people can't be filled with this heartless cruelty...just because you're not. Some individuals will kill any and everyone (regardless if it's their own countrymen) if it brings them more wealth and power... and that's a well documented fact throughout history.

Politicians (democrats and republicans) are the scummiest people on the earth. I'm not saying that if you have political beliefs associated with these parties that you are scum... and, I'm not talking about conservative and liberal beliefs per se... I'm talking about the elected individuals (politicians) who manipulate the American people and their morals and values, by projecting this phony image in the media... that preys on their good-heartedness.

The most powerful men throughout history have always been the most barbaric... it has been that way since the beginning of time and it will continue to be that way... And, if that's true... than why can you believe that rulers from other countries will murder their own innocent people, but can't believe that elements within the USG are willing to kill its own people?

I think you are blinded by your patriotism...but, trust me - these men responsible for 9/11 are not your fellow countrymen...nationalism means absolutely nothing to them... they only answer to two things, and that is money and power.

[R.Mackey]

You want my help? Okay.... since we didn't know what caused the collapses... and since planted explosives had to at least be considered as a potential cause... and since NIST didn't even factor explosives into their equations or theory... well, I would say that if you are working with crippled information... than you will produce crippled results.
(1) No. The NIST report describes what caused the collapses in excruciating detail.

(2) No they didn't. There is no evidence for explosives, and no unanswered questions that suggest explosives.

(3) They "didn't factor explosives" into their theory because there were none. Similarly, they didn't factor earthquakes, volcanoes, or Godzilla into their equations...

Crippled information? You might say that, but you'd be talking out of your hat. Which, it seems, is the only thing you know how to do.

NIST had crippled information by failing to include explosives as a possible suspect in their investigation... and as such - they came up with some unbelievable theories which don't even being to explain the most perplexing events of the collapses, namely, the speed at which the buildings fell, the exploding walls with nothing touching them on WTC 2, and the miracle failure of the core columns.
Just because you don't believe them doesn't make them "unbelievable." Your arrogance is astounding.

How does Perry Logan's expression go? "The dumber the Troofer, the smarter he thinks he is?" I think that's right.

The NIST is nothing but a big whitewash. What a Fraud.
You didn't even attempt to answer my question. Heck, I don't even think you know how.

[Oliver]

Oliver, I showed that to him. He calls it an optical illusion.

Here's his optical illusion post. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2185532#post2185532)

So it doesn´t really matter what NIST says? I mean
if they mentioned the whole collapse in the way 28th
would like to hear, he still wouldn´t believe them,
right? :boggled:

[Skibum]

You didn't even attempt to answer my question. Heck, I don't even think you know how.


Thats it bucko, he's going to use the ignore button on you for "spamming" this thread with "nonsense" that he doesn't understand.

He demands we answer his crap, then won't answer simple questions. Awfuly one way of him.

[Arus808]

Why do you believe that Americans are unwilling to kill other innocent Americans?

On the level that you are suggesting, its not only inconceivable, its highly preposterous.

NO one in OUR GOVERNMENT has ever killed thousands of american lives willingly.



unsubstantiated crap deleted since you aren't even going to see this post.

[uk_dave]

So it doesn´t really matter what NIST says? I mean
if they mentioned the whole collapse in the way 28th
would like to hear, he still wouldn´t believe them,
right? :boggled:

Yep, because he's already made his mind up based upon his lack of imagination, internet videos and his lack of comprehension.

Still, he's kept you busy for a while making badges, so it's not all bad. :D

[Skibum]

Still, he's kept you busy for a while making badges, so it's not all bad. :D

I wish he would post an updated ignore list, so I can see if I've qualified for a badge yet. Everyone else seems to have one.

[babazaroni]

So it doesn´t really matter what NIST says? I mean
if they mentioned the whole collapse in the way 28th
would like to hear, he still wouldn´t believe them,
right? :boggled:

Yes, it's basically hopeless.

The only way would be to model his thought processes and try to find a way through.

[Arus808]

i wish he would just go away, since he's not here for a debate (his ignore list shows that isn't) and he just wants to repeat the same tired excuses that CT's who have come here before and long been debunked have used.

I propose that anytime he asks a question that has already been addressed that you answer with the post or reply that was used in anotehr thread.

keep it simple. LONG explanations do no interest this troll.

[Oliver]

*snip* Still, he's kept you busy for a while making badges, so it's not all bad. :D

That´s it - you are on ignore. :mad: :D

[Skibum]

keep it simple. LONG explanations do no interest this troll.

And confuse him beyond belief, I might add.

[28th Kingdom]

So... we all agree now. 9/11 is an inside job, right? Cooool. High-Fives...

[Kage]

I still have yet to see a response to the fact that the towers collapsed at nowhere near freefall speeds. I would submit this as proof that explosives were not used, but I know better so I will just say that this makes it very unlikely. How are explosives more likely than say, a huge team of suicide welders who cut the beams at just the right time?

[Arus808]

typical CTer when presented with facts and haven't listened to one word of it, he summarizes that 'hes' won

Please go play with your playmates in the sandbox. The adults here do not have time to deal with babies.

[Oliver]

So... we all agree now. 9/11 is an inside job, right? Cooool. High-Fives...

Nope.

Why do you think wasn´t it suspicious at all to
Jowenko that the towers collapsed? He said he
did not wonder that this would and did happen.

[28th Kingdom]

I still have yet to see a response to the fact that the towers collapsed at nowhere near freefall speeds. I would submit this as proof that explosives were not used, but I know better so I will just say that this makes it very unlikely. How are explosives more likely than say, a huge team of suicide welders who cut the beams at just the right time?

I guessed you missed my video that showed the towers completely fell in approx. 11 seconds, 14 at the most...but I'm pretty sure that impact at 14 seconds was the upper mass hitting about 3 seconds after the lower floors reached the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAKzhlOdB-I

[Yawn]

This thread has become ridiculous, it died at these points:

The application of your physics and calculations onto the collapses of WTC 1 & 2... is the thing beyond my senses.

Mackey... don't you understand how abstract your calculations are? In fact... that's a great word to describe all of the verbiage I've heard from NIST and others on here... just abstract data and terms... that cannot be applied to the physical world of sight and sound and/or converted into visual simulations... because they are inconceivable i.e. unimaginable i.e. not plausible.

28K, your arguments have the robustness of the intellectual equivalent of cooked spaghetti.

NIST had crippled information by failing to include explosives as a possible suspect in their investigation... and as such - they came up with some unbelievable theories which don't even being to explain the most perplexing events of the collapses, namely, the speed at which the buildings fell, the exploding walls with nothing touching them on WTC 2, and the miracle failure of the core columns.

Whilst laudable that you have not resorted to personal
attacks on any member here I would dispute that you are not insulting
many here by a consistent refusal to own up to the fact that these 'details' have been explained to you, in some depth, and at the expense of some not inconsiderable time by posters with much patience and a considerably better grasp of even the most basic knowledge required to discuss these topics than you appear to display.

[beachnut]

Why do you believe that Americans are unwilling to kill other innocent Americans? Why... when thousands of Americans kill thousands of other innocent Americans every year... do you think these murders are like, "Wait a second... I can't kill you... you're my fellow American."

Here's the problem... if you are a good person (which I would hope you to be) a patriot and an honorable man... than I can understand how it might be hard for you to believe that people are capable of murdering innocent people, whether foreigners or their own countrymen... for sheer profit and greed. Nonetheless, do not project this good-heartedness onto others (especially the extremely elite and powerful) for that is naive of you to think that other people can't be filled with this heartless cruelty...just because you're not. Some individuals will kill any and everyone (regardless if it's their own countrymen) if it brings them more wealth and power... and that's a well documented fact throughout history.

Politicians (democrats and republicans) are the scummiest people on the earth. I'm not saying that if you have political beliefs associated with these parties that you are scum... and, I'm not talking about conservative and liberal beliefs per se... I'm talking about the elected individuals (politicians) who manipulate the American people and their morals and values, by projecting this phony image in the media... that preys on their good-heartedness.

The most powerful men throughout history have always been the most barbaric... it has been that way since the beginning of time and it will continue to be that way... And, if that's true... than why can you believe that rulers from other countries will murder their own innocent people, but can't believe that elements within the USG are willing to kill its own people?

I think you are blinded by your patriotism...but, trust me - these men responsible for 9/11 are not your fellow countrymen...nationalism means absolutely nothing to them... they only answer to two things, and that is money and power.

Is being blinded by patriotism better or worse than blinded by ignorance as 28th?

Or is he claiming and revealing both as the same time! Is 28th dumb as dirt and thinking he is patriotic cause he thinks he is exposing the CT behind 9/11?

He has pinpointed his problem and trying to project it on rational beings. (debunked and exposed by his own post)

Common Sense has done it again.

[28th Kingdom]

This thread has become ridiculous, it died at these points:

28K, your arguments have the robustness of the intellectual equivalent of cooked spaghetti.

Whilst laudable that you have not resorted to personal
attacks on any member here I would dispute that you are not insulting
many here by a consistent refusal to own up to the fact that these 'details' have been explained to you, in some depth, and at the expense of some not inconsiderable time by posters with much patience and a considerably better grasp of even the most basic knowledge required to discuss these topics than you appear to display.

I just want you to read back what you wrote...

[Oliver]

Nope.

Why do you think wasn´t it suspicious at all to
Jowenko that the towers collapsed? He said he
did not wonder that this would and did happen.

Well, 28th? What do you know what an expert
on controlled demolitions does not know? :confused:

[Paul]

I guessed you missed my video that showed the towers completely fell in approx. 11 seconds, 14 at the mostNot faster than free fall then, in fact not even at free fall, now we're getting somewhere.

[Arus808]

What I dont get is why these Cter's think that Common Sense trumps scientific theory and evidence?

Do prosecutors go into court to try a person of crime, just using common sense?

AGain, 28th is NOT HERE to have a debate. He's shown that he not here for any debate.

Please, just reply to this troll with a link to previous replies, since LONG EXPLANATIONS are something that he is not interested in.

[Firestone]

Oh friend... don't worry I've got a Perry Mason moment coming for you... so roughly, how many feet does an object fall per second at freefall? And, by roughly I mean... as close as you can get it.:dl:
You pontificate about "the laws of physics", yet you don't understand the most basic concepts of physics!

Please go and learn "the laws of physics" and then come back to discuss them!

:words:

The events of 9/11 include more than the collapses... it's the motive, the opportunity, the admitted evidence we have from the Bush administration about facts surrounding 9/11... the documented history of Israel framing Arab Muslims as terrorists... that is the big picture of 9/11. The fact that explosives were used is the big picture... the exact details of how they were used is not.

Of course, your left-brain hates the big picture... you prefer the myopic metaphysical world of speculative details... where you hold complete dominion over all the facts.As usual, when a CTist is cornered he cowardly flees to the "big picture".
And to the baseless accusations and insinuations. :mad:
Please provide EVIDENCE for Israel executing the 9/11 attacks or retract this baseless (but not unexpected) accusation.

What was the purpose? To investigate the collapses, right? Did NIST investigate the collapses? Yes or No? We will weed out the real loons with this one... cus we have NIST's statement that says they didn't focus on the events of the actual collapses...

Now... do you see why they refuse to provide a simulation for the collapses? BECAUSE THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT HAPPENED! Here is where the NIST investigation stops:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-RzwmD8uB8g

NIST's report stops RIGHT WHEN THE COLLAPSE BEGINS! HOW convenient!Because once the collapse begins COMMON SENSE tells us that the towers will collapse. Go and learn "the laws of physics", and you too will understand this.

You want my help? Okay.... since we didn't know what caused the collapses... and since planted explosives had to at least be considered as a potential cause... and since NIST didn't even factor explosives into their equations or theory... well, I would say that if you are working with crippled information... than you will produce crippled results.

NIST had crippled information by failing to include explosives as a possible suspect in their investigation... and as such - they came up with some unbelievable theories which don't even being to explain the most perplexing events of the collapses, namely, the speed at which the buildings fell, the exploding walls with nothing touching them on WTC 2, and the miracle failure of the core columns.

The NIST is nothing but a big whitewash. What a Fraud.Nope.
Since there is no evidence whatsoever for explosives, NIST (and everybody else with minimal COMMON SENSE) can rule the CD-hypothesis out.

A general note: once again 28th Kingdom has utterly failed in his attempt to prove anything (except his own ignorance of course).

[Firestone]

What I dont get is why these Cter's think that Common Sense trumps scientific theory and evidence?

Do prosecutors go into court to try a person of crime, just using common sense?

AGain, 28th is NOT HERE to have a debate. He's shown that he not here for any debate.

Please, just reply to this troll with a link to previous replies, since LONG EXPLANATIONS are something that he is not interested in.Well, he may not be interested in them, but others are. I, for one, greatly enjoy the clear explanations of R.Mackey, Architect, and many others on the technical matters.
28th Kingdom (and other trolls like Non Believer or RemoveBush) are a public service to the rest of the forum. :)

[The Doc]

I am really interested in knowing how debris was falling at approx. 1.5x freefall speed.

[28th Kingdom]

Not faster than free fall then, in fact not even at free fall, now we're getting somewhere.

So a 110 building...takes 2-3 more seconds to fall than an object that is hurling unimpeded and unobstructed through the air... and you think this bodes well for you.

What about good ole WTC 7 which did fall at freefall:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U

DOH!

[28th Kingdom]

I am really interested in knowing how debris was falling at approx. 1.5x freefall speed.

What about the fact that the debris wasn't simply falling... but being ejected by explosives... you don't think the energy released from the explosions could have increased the speed at which the debris fell?

[Architect]

So a 110 building...takes 2-3 more seconds to fall than an object that is hurling unimpeded and unobstructed through the air... and you think this bodes well for you.


Because, 28th, you don't NEED calculations of structural knowledge to know this, eh? It's common sense!


You're "theories" and lies have been shown for exactly what they are over the last 4 or 5 hours and yet you can't see it. You've failed to provide a single substantial or substantive response, instead running in circles and making bizarre claims about NIST being a fraud because you can't understand their report.

In the meantime, you have about 1/3 of the regular posters on this board on "Ignore" because we responded to technical issues you raised and proved them to be false.....and yet claim that no-one responded to them.

You are truly a coward and a fraud.

[Skibum]

So a 110 building...takes 2-3 more seconds to fall than an object that is hurling unimpeded and unobstructed through the air... and you think this bodes well for you.



DOH!

2-3 more seconds? the collapse in your video is at least 15-16 seconds. More like 5 or 6 seconds.

[The Doc]

What about the fact that the debris wasn't simply falling... but being ejected by explosives... you don't think the energy released from the explosions could have increased the speed at which the debris fell?

You are aware that cutting charges don't provide anywhere near enough force to do that?

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/3572/freefalllolfg7.jpg

Check this out.

[28th Kingdom]

You are aware that cutting charges don't provide anywhere near enough force to do that?

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/3572/freefalllolfg7.jpg

Check this out.

The concrete in the buildings were pulverized into dust, and the outer steel framing was catapulted over 300-500 feet away from the building... I would say there is a great force at work. Maybe a force that's even strong enough to crush an entire 110 story steel-structure building.

[Architect]

Unsubstantiated bluster.

[The Doc]

The concrete in the buildings were pulverized into dust, and the outer steel framing was catapulted over 300-500 feet away from the building... I would say there is a great force at work. Maybe a force that's even strong enough to crush an entire 110 story steel-structure building.

Nice way to avoid the free fall issue.

So, along with answering the free fall issue, answer me this. What type of explosives do you believe brought the WTC's down.

[Skibum]

The concrete in the buildings were pulverized into dust, and the outer steel framing was catapulted over 300-500 feet away from the building... I would say there is a great force at work. Maybe a force that's even strong enough to crush an entire 110 story steel-structure building.


You are correct, there were great forces at work that day. It was the upper portion hitting the lower portion that caused all that damage, no explosives necessary. It was also more than enough to crush an entire 110 story steel-structure building.

[Architect]

No, no! The design of all the lower joints was well in excess of the shear imposed by the dynamic loadings.....here are 28th's calculations:



oops.



That's right. He has none.

[28th Kingdom]

2-3 more seconds? the collapse in your video is at least 15-16 seconds. More like 5 or 6 seconds.

I didn't say that... they're making this crap up.

[Yawn]

I just want you to read back what you wrote...


Please do the same:-

At the sake of sounding like a genius...you could hammer an asteroid from outer space straight down on one of the (undamaged) twin towers...and it would not cause a chain reaction of floor failures from top to bottom. If anything, it would drill the vertical columns into the ground like a nail.


This must be some new definition of genius I've never previously encountered.

I think my single (admittedly long) sentence sums up what I feel about reading this thread for the last 5 hours and as I'm in the UK sleep beckons... goodnight all.

[Architect]

I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for steel beams a certain size would be 4.7 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 4.7 = 19.505 seconds.



Erm, what? You are aware that objects ACCELERATE at 9.8m/s-2 due to gravity, aren't you?!?!

[uk_dave]

The concrete in the buildings were pulverized into dust, and the outer steel framing was catapulted over 300-500 feet away from the building... I would say there is a great force at work. Maybe a force that's even strong enough to crush an entire 110 story steel-structure building.

Yep, it's called gravity, and it's strong enough to keep your feet on the ground and stop you flying off into space.

Amazing eh?

Of course, common sense tells us that nothing heavier than air other than a winged animal could possibly fly and so all those aircraft spraying chemical....oooops....flying over our heads are just (another) optical illusion.

Common sense tells us that a wooden ship floats because wood floats, therefore a steel ship must sink.

Common sense tells us that if a car is moving towards us, and then passes us and moves away, it will sound the same at all times because within the car it IS making the same constant sound. Right?

Common sense tells us that all structures are built the same and that they cannot disintegrate during collapse unless explosives are detonated at each connection between columns and between columns and floors, because the alternative is too scary for our common sense approach to deal with. Right?

[Skibum]

I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for steel beams a certain size would be 4.7 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 4.7 = 19.505 seconds.

You are dense aren't you.

[Firestone]

I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for flat steel beams would be 5.6 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 5.6 = 23.24 seconds.:dl:

Please, do yourself a favor and learn BASIC PHYSICS. For a starter read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration).

[uk_dave]

Common sense tells us that things fall to earth at a constant speed, which is why we could jump from a height of 100m and land as if we had just jumped from a height of 1m. Right?

[DarkMagician]

displacement = (original velocity x time) + (1/2)*(acceleration x time x time)

displacement from freefall = (original velocity x time) + (1/2)*(gravity x time x time)

There, so next time you try using physics, you actually look smarter than a doorknob.

[28th Kingdom]

You are dense aren't you.

Show you calculations please. What is the freefall time for a 415m tall steel-structured building? Are you a man... can you step up or do you just want to name call like a little girl?

[beachnut]

The concrete in the buildings were pulverized into dust, and the outer steel framing was catapulted over 300-500 feet away from the building... I would say there is a great force at work. Maybe a force that's even strong enough to crush an entire 110 story steel-structure building.

It is called gravity; it is a strong force. It kills thousands every year. Look it up Sherlock.

Ladies and Gentlemen. I present for your pleasure gravity. It is used by CD to destroy buildings. CD uses small charges to guide the building to fall in a certain way. But gravity does the work. Gravity is used to power cities. 28th, are you really as uneducated as you appear to be?

If explosive charges had been used in the WTC we would have heard the telltale sound of RDX. Since there is no proof of RDX, wires, detonators, and proof charges were planted we are missing the fact required to make the leap 28th has taken into insanity of lies promoted by our boy wonder. If explosive charges were used the building would fall differently; just a note!

BTW genus. The dust was mostly wallboard. You could look this up if you were not so busy drooling allover your keyboard.

Gravity is the strong force boy wonder. Gravity! Did I say Gravity? (1,000,000,000,000 joules in each tower, being equal to 248 tons of TNT; think that is a strong force? YES)

[Firestone]

Show you calculations please. What is the freefall time for a 415m tall steel-structured building? Are you a man... can you step up or do you just want to name call like a little girl?
... and a sexist too ... :rolleyes:

[28th Kingdom]

displacement = (original velocity x time) + (1/2)*(acceleration x time x time)

displacement from freefall = (original velocity x time) + (1/2)*(gravity x time x time)

There, so next time you try using physics, you actually look smarter than a doorknob.

So you tell, us:

What is the freefall time for a 415m tall steel-structured building?

[uk_dave]

I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for flat steel beams would be 5.6 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 5.6 = 23.24 seconds.

This needs saved for posterity.

IQ of 150? I think you forgot the decimal point.

[Yawn]

I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for steel beams a certain size would be 4.7 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 4.7 = 19.505 seconds.OMG Did you learn physics from the back of Kellogs packets?

Its rhetorical btw, I really am asleep now.

Move along everyone, nothing to see here...

[Skibum]

Show you calculations please. What is the freefall time for a 415m tall steel-structured building? Are you a man... can you step up or do you just want to name call like a little girl?

Your question has been answered before, oh self proclaimed genius, who doesn't understand that the mass accelerates as it falls. You can't just multiply it like that.

[GlennB]

Oh friend... don't worry I've got a Perry Mason moment coming for you... so roughly, how many feet does an object fall per second at freefall? And, by roughly I mean... as close as you can get it.


By asking this question you reveal your ignorance of basic science.

[DarkMagician]

So you tell, us:

What is the freefall time for a 415m tall steel-structured building?

Honestly, you should be asking what the acceleration is of a building that falls (distance) in (time). That'd give you a better idea of comparison. I'm not doing your homework for you.

[28th Kingdom]

Actually, I would say that the freefall times for the upper mass of floors on WTC 2 is 14 seconds...since you can obviously hear and see the effects of the upper mass crashing into the ground in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAKzhlOdB-I

At 14 seconds in...you hear a loud impact followed by scattering glass...surely there wasn't any glass left from the lower floors, because the walls were all blown to bits...

[beachnut]

I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for flat steel beams would be 5.6 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 5.6 = 23.24 seconds.

What grade level did you leave school? Are you Charlie Sheen? You should have finished high school!

[28th Kingdom]

Honestly, you should be asking what the acceleration is of a building that falls (distance) in (time). That'd give you a better idea of comparison. I'm not doing your homework for you.

Are you a man... than act like one. You are the one claiming I'm too stupid to calculate this... so now, it is upon you to prove that you have the ability to do such... otherwise, you're a 38374749.

[Skibum]

Actually, I would say that the freefall times for the upper mass of floors on WTC 2 is 14 seconds...since you can obviously hear and see the effects of the upper mass crashing into the ground in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAKzhlOdB-I

At 14 seconds in...you hear a loud impact followed by scattering glass...surely there wasn't any glass left from the lower floors, because the walls were all blown to bits...

Keep diggin that hole buddy.

[Oliver]

Actually, I would say that the freefall times for the upper mass of floors on WTC 2 is 14 seconds...since you can obviously hear and see the effects of the upper mass crashing into the ground in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAKzhlOdB-I

At 14 seconds in...you hear a loud impact followed by scattering glass...surely there wasn't any glass left from the lower floors, because the wall were blown to bits...

We have a nice feature here called "imbedded videos"
You just need to insert the end-code from the youtube
video into YT -Tags:


ZAKzhlOdB-I

or for Google videos:
xxxxxxxx
And you get this imbedded video:

ZAKzhlOdB-I

[Skibum]

Are you a man... than act like one. You are the one claiming I'm too stupid to calculate this... so now, it is upon you to prove that you have the ability to do such... otherwise, your a 38374749.


Why should anyone do the work for you. Its too much fun watching you wallow in ignorance.

[Skibum]

Perhaps this little blunder will make him realize he doesn't know squat about physics or anything else he rambles on about and force him to go learn how reality really works... but I doubt it.

[28th Kingdom]

Skibum...

I want you to go back and read all of your posts in this thread... Go do that for me.

What I need is for you... to go back and look at how worthless your input has been in this thread.

Go do it... that's your homework assignment. And... unless, you plan to contribute something other than insults... please refrain from opening yer mouth.

Ever

Again

Do you not understand how pointless and trivial your opinions are? Do you not understand how little I care...about what you personally think of me? Do you not understand that? Your words have less value than the bacteria growing under my toenails.

[beachnut]

28th - common sense - move on to the next great law of physics to be broken.

I forgot to think 28th does not understand simple acceleration! The fact I learned with broken bones and teeth; and I understood acceleration. But as we see who can skip the most steps on the stairs or just jump all the way to the basement; you will understand acceleration (common sense).

But I never expected 28th with his 150 IQ to mess up gravity. The force he has ignored. I suppose acceleration is hard to grasp if you have an IQ of 150!

[uk_dave]

Are you a man... than act like one. You are the one claiming I'm too stupid to calculate this... so now, it is upon you to prove that you have the ability to do such... otherwise, you're a 38374749.

You already proved that.

You know 28K, if you had the slightest interest in knowing the truth you would drop this arrogant act of yours and actually try to learn from the people here who have shown time and again that they know so much more than you.

But sadly there is some defect in your life which makes you act the way you do and it appears unlikely that you will ever progress past your own over inflated opinion of your intellectual abilities unless you deal with whatever it is that makes you behave in this way.

Stay here, inquire and learn, or take your BS somewhere else.

[DarkMagician]

Are you a man... than act like one. You are the one claiming I'm too stupid to calculate this... so now, it is upon you to prove that you have the ability to do such... otherwise, you're a 38374749.

I am giving you an opportunity to not look like an insepid moron. Just take it already.

[28th Kingdom]

God is laughing at you Skibum.

[beachnut]

Perhaps this little blunder will make him realize he doesn't know squat about physics or anything else he rambles on about and force him to go learn how reality really works... but I doubt it.

He has most of us on ignore because he is so far gone he can not stand the input. Gravity lessons for 28th.

Bet you can be on ignore soon!

[uk_dave]

God is laughing at you Skibum.

Hmmmmm...... you still have a long way to go.

[Skibum]

Skibum...

I want you to go back and read all of your posts in this thread... Go do that for me.

What I need is for you... to go back and look at how worthless your input has been in this thread.

Go do it... that's your homework assignment. And... unless, you plan to contribute something other than insults... please refrain from opening yer mouth.

Ever

Again

Do you not understand how pointless and trivial your opinions are? Do you not understand how little I care...about what you personally think of me? Do you not understand that? Your words have less value than the bacteria growing under my toenails.

Aw man you're breaking my heart. I know exactly what I've written here, I would take the time to write long winded explanations for you, but I know for a fact you will just overlook them just like you do with everyone elses longwinded explanations. So consider my responses to be timesavers for both of us, my time saved from having to write it, your time saved from having to scroll past it so you can post your next look how smart I am post.

[beachnut]

God is laughing at you Skibum.

Skibum understands physics. God understands physics. God is laughing with Skibum!

[Skibum]

God is laughing at you Skibum.

Wrong again, he is laughing with me... at you, for totally misunderstanding his laws of physics.

[H'ethetheth]

Actually, I would say that the freefall times for the upper mass of floors on WTC 2 is 14 seconds...since you can obviously hear and see the effects of the upper mass crashing into the ground in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAKzhlOdB-I

At 14 seconds in...you hear a loud impact followed by scattering glass...surely there wasn't any glass left from the lower floors, because the walls were all blown to bits...Well that's settled then, because if you'd have done the math DarkMagician showed you, you'd see that free fall from 400 m takes about 9 seconds.
And because no-one else is willing to point out the exact math for you, I'll give you my exact approximate calculations. You can too!

DarkMagician said, correctly according to Isaac Newton:displacement from freefall = (original velocity x time) + (1/2)*(gravity x time x time)
or, in shorthand:
x = v(0)*t + 1/2 * g * t^2

initial velocity v(0) is assumed to be zero so:

x = 1/2 * g * t^2

or:

t = sqrt(2x/g)

Insert these numbers:
x = 415 m
g = 9.8 m/s^2

therefore t = sqrt(830/9.8) = about sqrt(83) = just over 9 seconds.

So there!

[Skibum]

Skibum understands physics. God understands physics. God is laughing with Skibum!


Would you give a man who types about 10 wpm a chance to answer? :D

[28th Kingdom]

I know...7473 that... I pray there is at least one of you with half the mind to see what everyone is doing here... good lord - could you people skirt around the facts anymore than you are? I mean... could you please ad hominem me just a little bit harder... so that you don't have to confront the truth that stands before you.

You all know I've got the goods... and that is why you all bail out of the debate and start hurling insults... classic stuff really.

Everyone... was begging for me to come back to the freefall speeds... saying I wouldn't address the issue... and looky what happens when I come full on... right in your face - you simply do not have any answers and that's why you must resort to acting like children.

You have been reduced to 4848484...

[Architect]

That's because you got the calculation wrong, ya fanny.

[Bell]

I know...7473 that... I pray there is at least one of you with half the mind to see what everyone is doing here... good lord - could you people skirt around the facts anymore than you are? I mean... could you please ad hominem me just a little bit harder... so that you don't have to confront the truth that stands before you.

You all know I've got the goods... and that is why you all bail out of the debate and start hurling insults... classic stuff really.

Everyone... was begging for me to come back to the freefall speeds... saying I wouldn't address the issue... and looky what happens when I come full on... right in your face - you simply do not have any answers and that's why you must resort to acting like children.

You have been reduced to 4848484...

Wow. Just wow. Words fail to describe the utter hypocrism in your post.

[uk_dave]

I know...7473 that... I pray there is at least one of you with half the mind to see what everyone is doing here... good lord - could you people skirt around the facts anymore than you are? I mean... could you please ad hominem me just a little bit harder... so that you don't have to confront the truth that stands before you.

You all know I've got the goods... and that is why you all bail out of the debate and start hurling insults... classic stuff really.

Everyone... was begging for me to come back to the freefall speeds... saying I wouldn't address the issue... and looky what happens when I come full on... right in your face - you simply do not have any answers and that's why you must resort to acting like children.

You have been reduced to 4848484...

If you were to take everyone off ignore and stop with the condescending attitude then you will have seen the calcs for the freefall time posted here and on other threads.

Enough with playing the 'victim'. Your very first thread on this forum was going to teach us little people just how clever you were to have figured out the grand conspiracy. And as per the track record of all CTers out came the lies, half truths and ignorance which were then soundly countered by the people here, to the point where you discovered the almighty ignore button.

Architect has posted time and again the clearest and most comprehensive description of how the towers fell but you fail to address it because you would rather ignore it.

Every single claim you have made on this forum has been addressed by someone, but your arrogance prevents you from seeing it or conceding to it. You can't even bring yourself to admit that you made a bad mistake in calculating the freefall of the building at a constant rate.

Stop lecturing and start listening.

[DarkMagician]

Everyone... was begging for me to come back to the freefall speeds... saying I wouldn't address the issue... and looky what happens when I come full on... right in your face - you simply do not have any answers and that's why you must resort to acting like children.Umm... what?

This coming from the guy that either didn't know the equation for displacement, or didn't know the acceleration of gravity.

What are you smoking, and where can I get some?

[beachnut]

Would you give a man who types about 10 wpm a chance to answer? :D

He has many of us on ignore, you beat me by default! I am on his ignore list for days.

Feel free to use my junk; he has never seen it! It may get you on his list of fame. You are headed towards his list; I give you ten or so post and you will be with others on his list.

It is a great honor if he post his list again with your name on it! good luck

[28th Kingdom]

Well that's settled then, because if you'd have done the math DarkMagician showed you, you'd see that free fall from 400 m takes about 9 seconds.
And because no-one else is willing to point out the exact math for you, I'll give you my exact approximate calculations. You can too!

DarkMagician said, correctly according to Isaac Newton:or, in shorthand:
x = v(0)*t + 1/2 * g * t^2

initial velocity v(0) is assumed to be zero so:

x = 1/2 * g * t^2

or:

t = sqrt(2x/g)

Insert these numbers:
x = 415 m
g = 9.8 m/s^2

therefore t = sqrt(830/9.8) = about sqrt(83) = just over 9 seconds.

So there!

I just want to let you know... that you probably have about 55 minutes left to edit this, before it becomes permanently etched in the annals of internet history.

No pressure....

[Oliver]

He has many of us on ignore, you beat me by default! I am on his ignore list for days.

Feel free to use my junk; he has never seen it! It may get you on his list of fame. You are headed towards his list; I give you ten or so post and you will be with others on his list.

It is a great honor if he post his list again with your name on it! good luck

I guess he´s ignoring me, too. But i´m not sure
if i am on his ignore list or if he ignores me just
for fun.

Maybe he could post his list - so we don´t have
to waste time with him. Could someone who´s
not on his list quote me? :D


@28th Kingdom: So what´s your calculation? :confused:

[Architect]

The towers were around 417 metres tall (excluding the spire), giving 417 = 0.5 gt^2, so with g = 9.8m/s^2 that gives a time of about 9.22 seconds.


Just to prove that this is right, and excusing the overly simplistic calculation method but I'm dead tired:

9 seconds; final speed due to acceleration = (9*9.8) = 88.2m/s thus average speed over whole 9 seconds = 44.1m/s times 9 seconds = 396.9m.

10 seconds; final speed due to acceleration = (10*9.8) - 98m/s thus average speed over whole 10 seconds = 49m/s times 10 seconds - 490m.

So smart arse, cannae understand how to do basic secondary school calculations eh?

[Skibum]

He has many of us on ignore, you beat me by default! I am on his ignore list for days.

Feel free to use my junk; he has never seen it! It may get you on his list of fame. You are headed towards his list; I give you ten or so post and you will be with others on his list.

It is a great honor if he post his list again with your name on it! good luck

I've been trying for a badge for like 2 days, he seems to like me too much to ignore me though.

[uk_dave]

I just want to let you know... that you probably have about 55 minutes left to edit this, before it becomes permanently etched in the annals of internet history.

No pressure....

You're beyond help.

I tried, you failed.

Time to say goodbye to you as you sail off to ignoreland.

[28th Kingdom]

Coming on this board has become so unfulfilling... I provide you fine folks with entertainment like no other... yet I'm always let with an empty feeling inside.

[H'ethetheth]

I just want to let you know... that you probably have about 55 minutes left to edit this, before it becomes permanently etched in the annals of internet history.

No pressure....Remind me again why.

[Oliver]

.. yet I'm always let with an empty feeling inside.

It´s called IFS ... the "Ignore Function Syndrome" :rolleyes:

[Skibum]

Remind me again why.

Because he went back and totally changed his own screwup.

Too bad it was quoted numerous times.

[Skibum]

I didn't say that... they're making this crap up.

This is what he changed it to.

[uk_dave]

It´s called IFS ... the "Ignore Function Syndrome" :rolleyes:

It's also a two way street.

I think 28K has exhausted his entertainment potential and is now just playing like a broken record.

If he changes his ways and actually starts to listen and learn, I trust someone will point this out and I would be happy to remove him from ignoreland.

But for now I have no interest in seeing anything he types.

[Skibum]

So 28k do you have a habit of rewriting history?

[uk_dave]

This is what he changed it to.

Are you saying that 28K deleted his cocked up calculation and posted a disclaimer?

If so, he just outed himself as a blatant and stupid liar. :mad:

[Oliver]

It's also a two way street.

I think 28K has exhausted his entertainment potential and is now just playing like a broken record.

If he changes his ways and actually starts to listen and learn, I trust someone will point this out and I would be happy to remove him from ignoreland.

But for now I have no interest in seeing anything he types.

And this rascal actually thinks he´s entertaining... :rolleyes:

[Skibum]

Are you saying that 28K deleted his cocked up calculation and posted a disclaimer?

If so, he just outed himself as a blatant and stupid liar. :mad:

Yup, thats what I'm saying. He did. Got caught with his pants down and went back and tried to erase the evidence. Instead of, as he likes to say, be a man and at least admit his mistakes.

[DarkMagician]

Are you saying that 28K deleted his cocked up calculation and posted a disclaimer?

If so, he just outed himself as a blatant and stupid liar. :mad:

No, he's just in the Second Edition.

[Bell]

I didn't say that... they're making this crap up.

This is what he changed it to.

And this the original:

I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for steel beams a certain size would be 4.7 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 4.7 = 19.505 seconds.

[uk_dave]

I think that sort of editing should at least recieve a warning from the mods.

Just my opinion, not up to me to tell them how to moderate, their sand pit etc etc.

[Curnir]

You all know I've got the goods... and that is why you all bail out of the debate and start hurling insults... classic stuff really.


Chalmers: Oh my god your kitchen is on fire!
Skinner: No it isn't
Chalmers: What was that then?
Skinner: Umm the Aurora Borealis.
Chalmers: The aurora borealis? At this time of year? In this part of the country? Localized to your kitchen?
Skinner: ... Yes.
Chalmers: Can I see it?

Oh if I was only off his ignore list so I could pose that same question to 28th...

[DarkMagician]

Chalmers: Oh my god your kitchen is on fire!
Skinner: No it isn't
Chalmers: What was that then?
Skinner: Umm the Aurora Borealis.
Chalmers: The aurora borealis? At this time of year? In this part of the country? Localized to your kitchen?
Skinner: ... Yes.
Chalmers: Can I see it?

Oh if I was only off his ignore list so I could pose that same question to 28th...

The Simpsons has a quote for everything.

[Architect]

I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for steel beams a certain size would be 4.7 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U)

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 4.7 = 19.505 seconds.



So the terminal velocity of a steel beam is only some 21.3m/s ?

Like, doh!

[beachnut]

Originally Posted by 28th Kingdom http://forums.randi.org/helloworld/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2237441#post2237441)

I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for flat steel beams would be 5.6 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U)

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 5.6 = 23.24 seconds.


How many versions are there?

[uk_dave]

Originally Posted by 28th Kingdom [/URL][URL]http://forums.randi.org/helloworld/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2237441#post2237441)


How many versions are there?

I think it may depend on what day of the week it is.

[Mancman]

So a 110 building...takes 2-3 more seconds to fall than an object that is hurling unimpeded and unobstructed through the air... and you think this bodes well for you.

What about good ole WTC 7 which did fall at freefall:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U

DOH!

Come on. Show your calculations for how long WTC7 should have taken to collapse. You can use an upper section and a lower section and adjust either depending on where you think the collapse began, show us how much resistance the lower section should have provided.

I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for flat steel beams would be 5.6 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 5.6 = 23.24 seconds.

:eek:

This is hilarious. And quite sad, too.

[H'ethetheth]

Because he went back and totally changed his own screwup.

Too bad it was quoted numerous times.Hehehehe!
All this fighting against Uncle Sam and then pulling a truely Orwellian feat of redaction.

Brilliant!

[Mr.D]

Are you saying that 28K deleted his cocked up calculation and posted a disclaimer?


Disclaimer? Nope, he's a true "Truth Seeker." He posted a denial. Savor the irony.

[uk_dave]

Hehehehe!
All this fighting against Uncle Sam and then pulling a truely Orwellian feat of redaction.

Brilliant!

Well as we have said before, your average woowoo is very capable of committing the very acts which they accuse others of.

Certainly 28K is a liar and is prepared to attempt a cover-up. Hardly surprising then that his limited imagination allows him to accuse the US govt of the same thing on 9/11.

Except that they're better at it than he is. ;)

[maccy]

As an aside, the quote in 28th's signature is from a 13th Century Persian Sufi poet, usually known in English as Rumi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jalaluddin_Rumi

That particular quote seems to show up in new-agey places. Here's an excerpt form a Deepak Chopra book that quotes it:

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780375406645&view=excerpt

[Skibum]

Hehehehe!
All this fighting against Uncle Sam and then pulling a truely Orwellian feat of redaction.

Brilliant!

If he hadn't said anything about you being able to edit your post, I never would have bothered to go back and check. However, 28K being the "genius" that he is...

[uk_dave]

If he hadn't said anything about you being able to edit your post, I never would have bothered to go back and check. However, 28K being the "genius" that he is...

That must have been 28K's "pull it" moment. :D

[H'ethetheth]

Certainly 28K is a liar and is prepared to attempt a cover-up. Hardly surprising then that his limited imagination allows him to accuse the US govt of the same thing on 9/11.

Except that they're better at it than he is. ;)It takes one to know one, I guess.*







*I did not say that, they are making this up

[Skibum]

I wonder how he will try to play this one down, his blunder was bad enough, but going back and changing it and trying to say we made it up, that takes the cake. Maybe he won't come back at all, and I'll never get my badge, life is not fair. :)

[H'ethetheth]

If he hadn't said anything about you being able to edit your post, I never would have bothered to go back and check. However, 28K being the "genius" that he is...Apparently, that's how to do a cover-up.

[Oliver]

I wonder how he will try to play this one down, his blunder was bad enough, but going back and changing it and trying to say we made it up, that takes the cake. Maybe he won't come back at all, and I'll never get my badge, life is not fair. :)

Well, you could sign up at the loose change
board and say something like:

"Here i am, JREF. So what is this stupid truth
religion crap about?" :D

[H'ethetheth]

I wonder how he will try to play this one down, his blunder was bad enough, but going back and changing it and trying to say we made it up, that takes the cake. Maybe he won't come back at all, and I'll never get my badge, life is not fair. :)If he never returns, wouldn't that mean we all get a badge?

[Skibum]

Apparently, that's how to do a cover-up.

Reminds me of a little kid. You ask them what they are up to and they get a guilty look on their face and say "well, I'm not cutting my little sisters hair". You know at that point that you need to grab the camera because your little girl just got a buzz cut.

[beachnut]

28th is learning physics as he goes like Dr Jones was learning CD as he went.

Two great minds, full of thermite

[Skibum]

28th is learning physics as he goes like Dr Jones was learning CD as he went.

Two great minds.

Would be true, if 28K was actually learning anything.

[MortFurd]

God is laughing at you Skibum.
So, like, God told you so? Or can you hear Him laughing, and just know that it's about Skibum?


Get a clue, 28. Go study physics and civil engineering. Come back in ten years when you've got your degree and tell us then that the WTC buildings couldn't have collapsed.


As for me, common sense tells me that chopping a huge chunk out of a structure then setting it on fire will cause it to collapse.

Common sense tells me that when the top ten floors of the world's biggest building drop the height of one floor, there ain't a damn thing a human ever built that will stop the mass of those ten floors.


ETA:
Will 28 acutally catch me being inconsistent?

[MortFurd]

28th is learning physics as he goes like Dr Jones was learning CD as he went.

Two great minds, full of termites
I think that works better, though I wouldn't translate "Holzkopf" as "great mind."

Zwei Holzkoepfe volle Termites.

Two wooden heads full of termites. Wasn't that what you meant?

[chipmunk stew]

I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for flat steel beams would be 5.6 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 5.6 = 23.24 seconds.
Holy cow! He out-did Killtown!

[chipmunk stew]

Just to highlight this weasel's shenanigans:

[Originally written by beachnut : Today at 04:22 AM.]

[Originally written by 28th Kingdom : Today at 04:08 AM.]

I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for flat steel beams would be 5.6 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U)

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 5.6 = 23.24 seconds. What grade level did you leave school? Are you Charlie Sheen? You should have finished high school!

I didn't say that... they're making this crap up.

[Last edited by 28th Kingdom : Today at 04:30 AM.]

[Bell]

Earth to 28IQ. Earth to 28IQ. Come in 28IQ! We want to you to address your editing of your post.

Damn, his tinfoil hat must be preventing the signals to reach him. That, or the fact that the coward has everyone and his cat on ignore.

[Mancman]

I guessed you missed my video that showed the towers completely fell in approx. 11 seconds, 14 at the most...but I'm pretty sure that impact at 14 seconds was the upper mass hitting about 3 seconds after the lower floors reached the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAKzhlOdB-I

You know, you may be right about something.

At 14 seconds into this video there is a very noticable 'thump'. This could well be the mass of pancaked floorplates slamming into the basement.

911 myths comments on this video:
The rumble of the collapse appears to be noticeable as the video starts, or at least very close to it. If the sound is originating at a height of 965 feet (roughly the 78th floor), perhaps 200 feet from the microphone, then that’s a distance of around 985 feet, which means the sound began 0.86 seconds before we heard it (taking the speed of sound at 25 degrees C of 1136.2 feet per second). We’d suggest it’s realistic to assume the collapse started at 0.5 seconds before the clip begins, and perhaps a little earlier.

http://www.911myths.com/html/freefall__video_evidence.html

So far we have 14 seconds plus at least 0.5 seconds of collapse not captured, plus perhaps upto a second more when the collapse has begun (ie columns bowed out, tower began to lean) but may not have been audible 900ft away.

14 + ~0.5 + ~1 = much slower than freefall. And this was the faster collapse of the two.

Debunked yourself thoroughly. Well done.

[Mancman]

Come on. Show your calculations for how long WTC7 should have taken to collapse. You can use an upper section and a lower section and adjust either depending on where you think the collapse began, show us how much resistance the lower section should have provided.


Oh come on 28th! You're a genius. Your 150 IQ mind should be able to compute this in an instant. All you need a calculator, about 4 formulas and excel. I can do this and I haven't had a physics class since I was 15, and I got a C. :p

[Mashuna]

Just to highlight this weasel's shenanigans:

I think it's brilliant - his entire common sense argument that the building fell faster than freefall was based on a miscalculation of what the freefall time was!

But you're ok 28th - I don't think anyone noticed your little slip there. :covereyes

[Belz...]

I just proved that everything necessary for 9/11 to be an inside job has already happened at some point throughout history.

Which is irrelevant to knowing whether or not it ACTUALLY happened.

See, the problem is that you left-brain radicals like to dig down past the surface of all these essential points... to a place where facts and evidence are but pawns under the ruling of speculation and assumption.

Oh, the irony. You haven't presented any facts that could lead us to think that this conspiracy occured. Instead you've presented fallacious reasoning to show that it COULD occur, which is an entirely different thing.

We know the big facts... we know that all of these things are possible... but you (skeptics) insist on dragging the debate down into the muck (in an attempt at debunking) of minor details for which the answers can only be derived from speculation.

The forest IS made up of trees, you know.

See, it's the same thing as NIST using something like computer simulations (beyond the physical world) to prove all of their (physical) real-world theories... since they control all of the inputs (facts/variables/evidence) they can get these simulations to generate only the answers that will confirm their original hypothesis.

Incorrect. Experts from abroad would be able to tell if the data wasn't realistic. But a layman like you wouldn't.

This is the typical reaction of people with no expertise in the relevant field. They spot something they think is relevant, and seeing all the experts disagreeing with them, they decide, out of the blue, that all the experts are wrong and that, since it's so "obvious", they are also wrong on purpose.

[The Doc]

28th,

You're going on about Ad Hominem arguments and avoiding the facts etc. Why did you dodge my posts?

I'll post it up again.

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/3572/freefalllolfg7.jpg

If the towers feel at free-fall speed, that steel is traveling 2x faster than free-fall. Why?

Cutting charges do not expel debris in a downward direction. Neither do conventional explosives of any kind.

What type of explosives do you think were used at the World Trade Centers?

[Belz...]

Well, when you have classic signs of planted explosives i.e. "squibs" shooting out of the building some 20-30 floors below the collapse point...

Actually that would be evidence AGAINST a controlled demolition.

You know with common sense... we might say - okay, maybe stuff (smoke/dust/debris) shooting out on the floor that is being crushed might be possible... since the air on that floor could be affected by the immediate impact from above... but when you're talking about floors that have not collapsed... floors that have not been touched or affected by the falling upper mass - magically spouting out debris like a steel-boned whale doing a handstand* - well, now we're experiencing the rainbow-colored thaumaturgy that is so ubiquitous in the land of debunkerville.

And exactly what effect would such a small number of charges have on the collapse ??

COMMON SENSE doesn't provide the answer to any and everything you know.

Precisely.

Dude... you can use common sense a thousand ways to prove NIST's theory to be impossible. I've done it several times... go read some of my posts.

One way... I proved their theory false, was by observing the upper mass on WTC 2, that fell over to the side...

Wow, you are one hot person, aren't you ? You've single-handedly debunked the work of many, many experts in their OWN field, without having any expertise in it yourself.

What is your trip? We are talking common sense here. I am asking utterly simple questions, and you are all scared to answer them.

It's frightening to see that the world is more complicated than you initially believed, isn't it ?

[28th Kingdom]

28th,

You're going on about Ad Hominem arguments and avoiding the facts etc. Why did you dodge my posts?

I'll post it up again.

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/3572/freefalllolfg7.jpg

If the towers feel at free-fall speed, that steel is traveling 2x faster than free-fall. Why?

Cutting charges do not expel debris in a downward direction. Neither do conventional explosives of any kind.

What type of explosives do you think were used at the World Trade Centers?

I believe they were some kind of star wars rocket/beam/lasers. It's kind of hard to explain - but I mean... they are like strong and fast... you know? Oh yea... and invisible... so no evidence is left in sight... that was the clever part of the whole blackjack cards.

[GlennB]

I believe they were some kind of star wars rocket/beam/lasers. It's kind of hard to explain - but I mean... they are like strong and fast... you know? Oh yea... and invisible... so no evidence is left in sight... that was the clever part of the whole blackjack cards.

hehehe - OK 28th, it was quite a good joke while it lasted. You got a lot of people quite steamed up there for a while :)
Nice one.

[slingblade]

Blown any whistles yet, 28? Told anyone who could actually act upon your information what you know?

Why are you just sitting on this important, life-saving information?

You've done it, right? You've proven the NIST theory false, so you know.
So what are you doing with any of it? Are you becoming part of the problem?

Are you a LIHOPPER shill for the government, 28th? Allowing them to get away with murder?

[The Doc]

I believe they were some kind of star wars rocket/beam/lasers. It's kind of hard to explain - but I mean... they are like strong and fast... you know? Oh yea... and invisible... so no evidence is left in sight... that was the clever part of the whole blackjack cards.

No, I don't know.

So you'll have to provide me with several pieces of evidence. Such as:
a) Evidence these weapons exist
b) Evidence they are operational
c) Proof they can operate invisibly
d) Evidence these weapons were used on 9/11.

So far I've seen none.

This is all assuming you're being serious. Which I wouldn't put past you.

[MRC_Hans]

I believe they were some kind of star wars rocket/beam/lasers. It's kind of hard to explain - but I mean... they are like strong and fast... you know? Oh yea... and invisible... so no evidence is left in sight... that was the clever part of the whole blackjack cards.You are joking, right?

Hans

[H'ethetheth]

hehehe - OK 28th, it was quite a good joke while it lasted. You got a lot of people quite steamed up there for a while :)
Nice one.Then again, making a parody of something that is indistinguishable from parody to begin with is pretty much pointless.

[GlennB]

Then again, making a parody of something that is indistinguishable from parody to begin with is pretty much pointless.

I suppose it's just conceivable that he's seen the emptiness of his claims and the gaping holes in his science and is trying to back out with a common enough technique - "I was only kidding" ??

[Skibum]

I suppose it's just conceivable that he's seen the emptiness of his claims and the gaping holes in his science and is trying to back out with a common enough technique - "I was only kidding" ??


Of course people would have much more respect for him if he just came out and admitted he was wrong.

[aggle-rithm]

Again... I'm not crazy... I don't cook food with radiation or put things to my head that will fry my brain... although, I think I'm starting to see why we all disagree on so many things...


Like the notion that he's not crazy. Believing that microwaved food has radiation in it and a cell phone will fry his brain sounds pretty paranoid to me.

[28th Kingdom]

Blown any whistles yet, 28? Told anyone who could actually act upon your information what you know?

Why are you just sitting on this important, life-saving information?

You've done it, right? You've proven the NIST theory false, so you know.
So what are you doing with any of it? Are you becoming part of the problem?

Are you a LIHOPPER shill for the government, 28th? Allowing them to get away with murder?

I need all of your help... one man cannot do it alone. United we stand... and divided we fall. I am working to unite people so that we can stand up and defeat this tyranny.

We have been balkanized and taught to look out for our own best interests... while pushing others down... see, it's this isolation... that makes us all weak and powerless against the machine. How can we as a people ever rise up, when we are so consumed with beating each other down?

We are constantly being taught to discriminate between sexes, races, political parties, religions etc. People get so conditioned with this sort of habitual separatism, that they carry it over into all aspects of life... whether it be rivaling states/coast lines/cities battling against each other through sports... or neighborhoods within cities fighting each other over local politics or family members in the same house arguing over the remote control... there is absolutely nothing united about the United States of America.

We are separated at every level and on every scale...

I promise you... one day... and that day may not be too far from this day... America will turn into this Orwellian nightmare that you have been hearing about... and it will seemingly happen over night.

At a certain point... once all of the ground work has been laid in the background i.e. passing of new acts in congress, systematical implementation of spying devices which track your every movement, construction of concentration camps etc. the takeover, will happen very rapidly.

All they need to do is release a suitcase nuke or dirty bomb... wherein killing 150,000 people and you will have complete and utter chaos, which will bring about martial law. This can all happen in the span of one day... It will be like 9/11 times 50... Can you imagine it? Are you ready?

[H'ethetheth]

I suppose it's just conceivable that he's seen the emptiness of his claims and the gaping holes in his science and is trying to back out with a common enough technique - "I was only kidding" ??Sure, and if he's not a troll I certainly hope for his sake he's just made his first steps on the way to sanity. Though judging from his newest thread, I'm still undecided. Though if he is a troll he's certainly a troll that doesn't know when to say when.

[Skibum]

I promise you... one day... and that day may not be too far from this day... America will turn into this Orwellian nightmare that you have been hearing about... and it will seemingly happen over night.


Well I guess we will just have to meet you there since you apparently are already practicing these Orwellian tactics.

[gumboot]

Again... I'm not crazy... I don't cook food with radiation or put things to my head that will fry my brain... although, I think I'm starting to see why we all disagree on so many things...



I'd be very curious to heard exactly how you do cook food?

I of course assume that you, oh master of all things of knowledge, know already that heat is a form of radiation, yes?

-Gumboot

[Firestone]

:words:Why don't you address the many questions you left open?
Why don't you provide evidence for your claims?
Why don't you apologize for deleting (one of) your stupid posts and claiming we made it up?

Why ... ?

[aggle-rithm]

How many times...have I mentioned the big picture and how you all like to plunder through the murky details? Ever heard this expression:

"Try not to get too bogged down in the details."

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=8586&dict=CALD

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4983462&ft=1&f=1057

"Senior news analyst Daniel Schorr says that the public should not become bogged down in the details of the investigation into who leaked the name of covert CIA agent Valerie Plame." (emphasis added)


Ironic, because getting bogged down in details is the conspiracy theorist's best friend. If not for this, the arguments would be pretty short:

Troofer: 9/11 was an inside job!
Skeptic: Really? What do you think happened on 9/11?
Troofer: ......

[Architect]

Why don't you address the many questions you left open?
Why don't you provide evidence for your claims?
Why don't you apologize for deleting (one of) your stupid posts and claiming we made it up?

Why ... ?




I know this one......it's because he's a fraud and a coward.

[chipmunk stew]

We are constantly being taught to discriminate between sexes, races, political parties, religions...
...brain hemispheres...

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_919345a1da245e699.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3522)

(Taken from http://www.debunking911.com/collapse.htm, which contains an excellent summary for those, like yourself, who cannot possibly apprehend the entire NIST report.)


The video footage was, indeed, one of the major inputs to the NIST study. You're making stuff up again.

What is it with you Troothers and your aversion to anything that's actually true, anyway?

Despite what you may believe, NIST isn't going to proceed beyond this, for two reasons:

Once collapse starts, the rest is academic. Nobody will ever build a skyscraper that will partially arrest its collapse, so there is nothing to be learned. Building codes are based on preventing collapse, not arresting them.
You can't model the full collapse in any detail anyway. Too many random variables. NIST knows that any such animation would be a guess, and they don't like to guess. They like to present that which they can rigorously estimate.
I know this is too difficult for you as well, so let me give a simple example.

Suppose you throw a six-sided die. Can you predict what side will come up? Just that, a die, an initial six degree-of-freedom state, and a hard, flat, perfect plane below. Can't do it, can you? Nope. Not even with the best computers in the world, not to any usable accuracy.

The WTC collapses are literally billions of times more complicated.

Dynamics are hard to simulate. Dynamics that hit things and spawn additional dynamics, i.e. any error early on leads to greater and greater errors over time, are inherently impossible to simulate, except to pose possible examples of what might happen. Reconstructing what did happen? Impossible.

I fail to see what NIST producing a cartoon for your benefit would achieve, anyway. Real science doesn't depend on cartoons.
http://news.uns.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/2006/060911.Sozen.WTC.html

[aggle-rithm]

Wowy wow... what does this guy sound like... if not an 8 year old explaining what happened on 9/11. Very scientific... I must say.

BTW... where did the term, "Global Collapse," even originate? Did NIST make up this term? I THINK THEY DID!

Why no global collapse here:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4847/ntp10ini8.jpg

How the heck is that building standing...what about lateral loads and transferring loads...and traverse loads... this must be one magical building.

28 BrainCells, you EEEEEEdiot!!

[Architect]

Amazing the way he magically "overlooked" his gravity gaffe, isn't it?


I was so angry at his Orwellian rewriting of the posts that I complained to the Mods. I'd urge you all to do likewise.

[aggle-rithm]

NIST had crippled information by failing to include explosives as a possible suspect in their investigation... and as such - they came up with some unbelievable theories which don't even being to explain the most perplexing events of the collapses, namely, the speed at which the buildings fell, the exploding walls with nothing touching them on WTC 2, and the miracle failure of the core columns.

The NIST is nothing but a big whitewash. What a Fraud.

Sigh.

28 NeuralDisorders has claimed multiple times that the walls exploded. Can someone who is not on his ignore list post a video of an explosion, so he can see that what he is looking at is NOT an explosion?

[stateofgrace]

I need all of your help... one man cannot do it alone. United we stand... and divided we fall. I am working to unite people so that we can stand up and defeat this tyranny.

We have been balkanized and taught to look out for our own best interests... while pushing others down... see, it's this isolation... that makes us all weak and powerless against the machine. How can we as a people ever rise up, when we are so consumed with beating each other down?

:words:


At a certain point... once all of the ground work has been laid in the background i.e. passing of new acts in congress, systematical implementation of spying devices which track your every movement, construction of concentration camps etc. the takeover, will happen very rapidly.

All they need to do is release a suitcase nuke or dirty bomb... wherein killing 150,000 people and you will have complete and utter chaos, which will bring about martial law. This can all happen in the span of one day... It will be like 9/11 times 50... Can you imagine it? Are you ready?

Wow, just wow. :jaw-dropp

Get a life 28th, stop living in the world of the poor oppressed victim. Your posts are just oozing paranoia and border on the insane.

One of your own posts right back at ya.

Originally Posted by 28th Kingdom http://forums.randi.org/helloworld/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2237498#post2237498)


I want you to go back and read all of your posts in this thread... Go do that for me.

What I need is for you... to go back and look at how worthless your input has been in this thread.

Go do it... that's your homework assignment. And... unless, you plan to contribute something other than insults... please refrain from opening yer mouth.

Ever

Again

Do you not understand how pointless and trivial your opinions are? Do you not understand how little I care...about what you personally think of me? Do you not understand that? Your words have less value than the bacteria growing under my toenails.


Grow up 28th, just grow up.

[H'ethetheth]

I was so angry at his Orwellian rewriting of the posts that I complained to the Mods. I'd urge you all to do likewise.Why? His silliness is here for all to see. It's not like he's getting away with it.

[aggle-rithm]

I think you are blinded by your patriotism...but, trust me - these men responsible for 9/11 are not your fellow countrymen...nationalism means absolutely nothing to them... they only answer to two things, and that is money and power.

Both of which they would be deprived of if they wantonly broke the law to get what they want.

Nixon's crime was fairly minor -- he ordered some guys to break into a hotel room, then covered it up -- but he was still forced to resign in disgrace. That's why you don't see too many politicians doing such things nowadays.

[chipmunk stew]

I promise you... one day... and that day may not be too far from this day... America will turn into this Orwellian nightmare that you have been hearing about... and it will seemingly happen over night....
...history will be rewritten right before your eyes...OMG, it's happening already....RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Big Les]

All they need to do is release a suitcase nuke or dirty bomb... wherein killing 150,000 people and you will have complete and utter chaos, which will bring about martial law. This can all happen in the span of one day... It will be like 9/11 times 50...

But that's....forty-five thousand, five hundred, and fifty!

[Skibum]

But that's....forty-five thousand, five hundred, and fifty!

Well, he's already proven math isn't one of his strong points.

[aggle-rithm]

But that's....forty-five thousand, five hundred, and fifty!

Actually, it's 450/11.

[Perforatu]

I of course assume that you, oh master of all things of knowledge, know already that heat is a form of radiation, yes?
:jaw-dropp

*spits out cooked ham*

So that's how they brainwash us!

[The Almond]

Straight from the horses mouth. NIST didn't even investigate the events of the collapse... they focused entirely on the pre-collapse. Unbelievable. See, they assume the global collapse was inevitable, why... BECAUSE THE BUILDINGS FELL! How blinded can you be... see, that's what happens when you begin your investigation by eliminating suspects i.e. explosives - from your equations.

Answer this question: What capacity did the WTC towers have to stop a collapse once it started? What is the damping ability of a steel and concrete structure?

[H'ethetheth]

Actually, it's 450/11.Or 550/9 in the Netherlands, which is like, totally more!

(probably something to do with the metric system).

[Spins]

I promise you... one day... and that day may not be too far from this day... America will turn into this Orwellian nightmare that you have been hearing about... and it will seemingly happen over night.

At a certain point... once all of the ground work has been laid in the background i.e. passing of new acts in congress, systematical implementation of spying devices which track your every movement, construction of concentration camps etc. the takeover, will happen very rapidly.

All they need to do is release a suitcase nuke or dirty bomb... wherein killing 150,000 people and you will have complete and utter chaos, which will bring about martial law. This can all happen in the span of one day... It will be like 9/11 times 50... Can you imagine it? Are you ready?Everybody panic, the end of the world is nigh, the end of the world is nigh!

28th I think you need to chill out a bit your posts make you come across a little paranoid.

[Bell]

I need all of your help... one man cannot do it alone. United we stand... and divided we fall. I am working to unite people so that we can stand up and defeat this tyranny.

Putting everybody on ignore is a good start :rolleyes:

[Architect]

The term "damping ability" doesn't really apply.

It would be whether the imposed dynamic load exceeded the design capacity of the structural frame (and in particular the joints). Which it would, because we don't design for the kinds of loads you get when such a large mass hits.

[A W Smith]

Like the notion that he's not crazy. Believing that microwaved food has radiation in it and a cell phone will fry his brain sounds pretty paranoid to me.


reminds me of my first wife with our first microwave years ago. she was never much of a cook. after weeks of coaxing she started to use the microwave. put in the dinner plate hit the timer and then dart into the next room to avoid the radiation. yeah she was a weird one.

[Bell]

Or 550/9 in the Netherlands, which is like, totally more!

(probably something to do with the metric system).

:D

[chipmunk stew]

Putting everybody on ignore is a good start :rolleyes:
He's a Uniter, not a Divider. He doesn't have time for Dividers. All Dividers go on his Ignore list. And Left-brainers. And Nerds.

[A W Smith]

I need all of your help... one man cannot do it alone. United we stand... and divided we fall. I am working to unite people so that we can stand up and defeat this tyranny.

We have been balkanized and taught to look out for our own best interests... while pushing others down... see, it's this isolation... that makes us all weak and powerless against the machine. How can we as a people ever rise up, when we are so consumed with beating each other down?

We are constantly being taught to discriminate between sexes, races, political parties, religions etc. People get so conditioned with this sort of habitual separatism, that they carry it over into all aspects of life... whether it be rivaling states/coast lines/cities battling against each other through sports... or neighborhoods within cities fighting each other over local politics or family members in the same house arguing over the remote control... there is absolutely nothing united about the United States of America.

We are separated at every level and on every scale...

I promise you... one day... and that day may not be too far from this day... America will turn into this Orwellian nightmare that you have been hearing about... and it will seemingly happen over night.

At a certain point... once all of the ground work has been laid in the background i.e. passing of new acts in congress, systematical implementation of spying devices which track your every movement, construction of concentration camps etc. the takeover, will happen very rapidly.

All they need to do is release a suitcase nuke or dirty bomb... wherein killing 150,000 people and you will have complete and utter chaos, which will bring about martial law. This can all happen in the span of one day... It will be like 9/11 times 50... Can you imagine it? Are you ready?

would you like a couple milk crates stacked up to stand on and shake your fist in the air with? and a funny three pointed hat?