Common Sense

[Belz...]

Failure is imminent... according to what? Your opinion? Your speculation?

Er... I'm sure even you would recognise that, in this situation, failure is imminent. Or do you think that heat-weakened steel columns bearing many times the weight they were designed to carry are invincible ?

How would arab terrorists get access to plant explosives in the buildings? That's why you fly planes into buildings.

Precisely.

What increasing mass? The floors were exploding... so how was the upper mass increasing in size? Were the floors pancaking? That couldn't be the case, cus NIST says a pancake collapse isn't possible on the WTC Towers... even though, they also claim the upper mass increased in size as it fell... so, how is it increasing in size? The floors are exploding outward... so what material is being added to the upper mass that increases its size as the collapse progresses?

I can see that asking questions is far more fun than actually answering them.

Does NIST have proof that the upper mass was increasing in size...

How could it possibly DEcrease ?

Everyone knows what? That the upper mass was increasing in size? How do they know this? We can't even see the upper mass for the majority of the collapse, so what tells us it's increasing in size?

Common sense. And this time it agrees with reality.

There is absolutely no proof that the towers could have fell the way they did from the damage that was done.

Easily said when you don't read the relevant data.

Common sense tells us... given the knowledge of free falls speeds... that these towers could not have collapsed as fast as they did without a synthetic catalyst like explosives.

And the explosives would've accelerated the collapse how ?

Why? Because that would mean this steel structured building not only failed... but offered virtually no resistance. 10 floors failing per second... that's fast.

Yes, I expect that a floor wouldn't offer any significant resistance to such a huge, falling mass.

Please, don't project your biases onto me. I'm non-partisan... and by that I mean... I think 99% of all politicians (democrats and republicans) are evil.

"Evil" ?

That's an objective opinion if I ever heard one. :rolleyes:

[DavidJames]

I've now put 28 in the same mental ward as Christophera. I don't believe 28 is mentally stable and I won't be responding to his posts anymore.

[Horatius]

All they need to do is release a suitcase nuke or dirty bomb... wherein killing 150,000 people and you will have complete and utter chaos, which will bring about martial law. This can all happen in the span of one day... It will be like 9/11 times 50... Can you imagine it? Are you ready?

Man, you go to bed at a reasonable hour, and you miss all the good stuff. That freefall "calculation"? Classic. Thank you all for saving it from the Memory Hole.

Now he's (mis-)quoting Team America:World Police? I think we've officially pushed him off the edge.

[LashL]

I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for steel beams a certain size would be 4.7 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 4.7 = 19.505 seconds.

Oh.
My.
Rule 8ing.
God.

Was that the "Perry Mason moment" that 28th promised?

:dl:

[Horatius]

Oh.
My.
Rule 8ing.
God.

Was that the "Perry Mason moment" that 28th promised?

:dl:

I think that was the "Mason Jar" moment. As in, that's what he was drinking the bootleg gin out of....

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Oh.
My.
Rule 8ing.
God.

Was that the "Perry Mason moment" that 28th promised?

:dl:
And, had he not been ignoring half the forum, he would have seen one of the several times I posted http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2207994#post2207994 and perhaps caught himself before hitting submit.

[Big Les]

Actually, it's 450/11.

I was in Team America (Spotswoode in fact) idiom (911 x whatever). Any way you cut it, it's sig material.

[JonnyFive]

Oh lord... I just waded through the 17 pages of this thread that magically appeared over the weekend.

28th Kingdom, I notice that you have yet to post a single shred of real evidence for your theory of controlled demolitions... or whatever it is you subscribe to these days. You have failed to address your misunderstandings of physics, especially how acceleration works.

You have yet to post calculations of what happened that actually adhere to the laws of physics and mathematics. You can't simply multiply the time it takes something to fall 100m by 4 to get the time it takes it to fall from 400m. The fact you don't even understand that simple fact is highly damaging to your credibility.

Please post some evidence if you wish to change minds here. Insinuation and "it doesn't look right"/"common sense" are not evidence, sorry.

[R.Mackey]

[28th Kingdom's denial] And this the original: [28th Kingdom's incredibly stupid math error]
Holy smoking crap!

Maybe you should try some microwaves sometime... clearly whatever you're doing isn't working for you.

I believe they were some kind of star wars rocket/beam/lasers. It's kind of hard to explain - but I mean... they are like strong and fast... you know? Oh yea... and invisible... so no evidence is left in sight... that was the clever part of the whole blackjack cards.
It's hard to explain because it didn't happen.

I've already beat the Star Wars hypothesis to death, in this post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2086102#post2086102). I don't expect you to understand a word of it, or indeed even to acknowledge your own shortcomings in education, but please give it a read. Ask questions if you want help.

I'll be glad to answer any and all questions as best I can, without insult. Learning is a positive thing. However, having seen the depth of your knowledge, there is clearly no need to put any credence whatsoever in your conclusions -- and those, I shall ignore.

[Belz...]

Mackey... don't you understand how abstract your calculations are?

That's one way of saying you don't understand physics, don't trust experts and don't want to change your views.

just abstract data and terms... that cannot be applied to the physical world of sight and sound and/or converted into visual simulations... because they are inconceivable i.e. unimaginable i.e. not plausible.

That's the problem with you twoofers. You don't trust numbers because you didn't go to school and don't understand how mathematics can effectively MODEL REALITY.

Here is what you might not understand.... our 5 senses are how we perceive reality.

And poorly at that.

Our five senses are separate from our thoughts (metaphysical - beyond the physical world)

An interesting, and unsupported assumption that would better be discussed in the philosophy and religion subforum. However, you are wrong. Our thoughts are very, very much dependent upon the 5 senses.

In order to prove something is possible in the physical world... you must show proof that can be observed with the 5 senses i.e. visual simulations.

Patently false. Or do you deny the existence of atoms ?

Your theories/calculations only exist in the infinite realm of thought where anything is possible...

That's a fine admission that you don't understand physics and mathematics.

When you look at angles that show the unobscured collapse of WTC 2... you can see that the building is still falling faster than the debris, down to at least the last 400+ feet.

Now who's defying the laws of physics ?

How can I disprove something that is beyond my senses? I can't... I can neither prove it nor disprove it... that's why the million dollar challenge (according to what I know of it) seems to be a paradoxical impossibility.

Keep digging that hole, 28. Now you've shown a total misunderstanding of the nature of evidence and the scientific process.

Do you have thoughts? There is your proof. Thoughts are a psychic ability that creates a communication link between the immaterial and material worlds.

Or just brain chemicals dancing around. Take your pick.

We already know that invisible forces (beyond the 5 senses) can move physical objects. Just go play with some magnets and you will espy that.

That doesn't make them metaphysical. Boy, oh boy. You don't know much about anything, do you ?

[Kage]

I'm starting to seriously question 28th reading comprehension, since he has asked for the same proof twice (how long does it take an object to fal from freefall?)

I think that this is less of an argument about how commons sense works than how 28th doesn't use it anyway.

I think he is probably asleep.

[Belz...]

That perception is part of the sixth sense. The sixth sense is an all inclusive perception that includes everything beyond the 5 senses.

And therefore NOT a sense at all. How do you manage to debunk yourself like this ? I don't get it.

And, why the need to cast invectives at me and my intelligence?

Your what ?

Are you serious? Who uses a microwave to cook food...

I do... does wonder on bacon or other thin pieces of meat.

I don't even understand this one...the waves are perceived with hearing.

You HEAR the radio waves ? That's one, powerful set of lobes you have.

Nothing exists until observed.

Solipsist nonsense. Go away, sophist.

[Architect]

I see he's still claiming that we made up HIS crap calculation...

[HeyLeroy]

Some quotes that come to mind when I think of Troofers:

Facts are stupid things. Ronald Reagan, 1988

I have opinions of my own -- strong opinions -- but I don't always agree with them. George H. W. Bush

Animals, which move, have limbs and muscles; the earth has no limbs and muscles, hence it does not move. Scipio Chiaramonti, professor of philosophy and mathematics, University of Pisa, 1633

X-rays are a hoax. Lord Kelvin

My dynamite will sooner lead to peace than a thousand world conventions. As soon as men find that in one instant whole armies can be destroyed they surely will abide by golden peace. Alfred Nobel, inventor of dynamite.

Atomic energy might be as good as our present-day explosives, but it is unlikely to produce anything very much more dangerous. Winston Churchill, 1939

Christ cannot possibly be a Jew. I do not have to prove that scientifically. It is a fact! Joseph Goebbels

[HeyLeroy]

That perception is part of the sixth sense. The sixth sense is an all inclusive perception that includes everything beyond the 5 senses.

Dude, we have more than five senses. Five senses is an old fallacy. We have a sense of balance. We have a sense of hunger. We have a sense of spatial awareness. There are more, but I'm on ignore anyways.

[A W Smith]

so are you implying that if theres nothing around to be visibly affected wind and magnetic fields dont exist?



again, not all microwaves produce heat in an object, do they not exist? (and wtf are you living "off the grid" or something? everyone owns a microwave)



yep, definately off the grid....whats with the internet though?



do you hear the radio waves, or the sound waves after they are converted by a speaker?



maybe we are all just figments of your imagination, maybe your asleep and dreaming all of this


yup Kaziinsky's cabin must have a new tenant

[The Almond]

The term "damping ability" doesn't really apply.


Tell that to the Star Trek writers. Those inertial dampers sure made jumping to warp easy. Now if the WTC had a set of those...

[Architect]

But tall buildings do somethimes have intertial dampers, to help minimise the sway caused by wind (or earthquake) loadings. Funnily enough the infamous Citicorp Building is a classic case.

[Belz...]

No, I only eat whole unprocessed foods... mostly raw and organic. I would advise you do the same... lest you risk losing brain cells.

I see you believe in OTHER forms of nonsense. Typical. CTers usually have a plethora of idiotic beliefs in their portfolio.

Hey, I think I'm starting to catch on to this left-brain debunking game. SCORE!!

"Score" ? What is this, to you ? A game. We're discussing an event that killed thousands.

I don't claim everyone is a gov employee... because... I have a strong intuitive sense... which allows me to tell you all apart.

What a convenient excuse. You can eschew logic and reasoning because you "feel" things through.

The receiver converts the waves into audio dear boy... the speaker merely magnifies the sounds to a level perceivable to our ears.

Holy hell. Technology, too ? Is there ANYTHING you know anything about ?

Man, I would pay... money - GOOD MONEY to see someone create a visual simulation of the WTC 2 collapse. Wow, that would look so comical... you don't even know.

Yes, yes it would. Seeing a layman with no experience who doubts the expertise of structural engineers from around the world getting his behind handed to him by a computer is surely something of comedic value.

I'm gonna find the video for freefall. You people think the debris hit the ground first... yet you can't see the tower, because it's obscured by the debris...

And your strong intuitive sense tells you that it hit the ground before the debris, when we can clearly see the debris falling in front of the top block ?

NIST didn't even investigate the events of the collapse... they focused entirely on the pre-collapse. Unbelievable.

Quite believable, in fact. Why would they investigate the collapse once it's started ? Any first-grade student knows that, once that top section comes down, the rest is academic.

What was the purpose? To investigate the collapses, right?

Wrong again. To study the CAUSES of the collapse. This is supposed to help recommendations for future buildings, methinks.

"Try not to get too bogged down in the details."

It's a good thing that real investigators and scientists don't follow THAT advice.

Politicians (democrats and republicans) are the scummiest people on the earth.

Sweeping statement.

[The Almond]

But tall buildings do somethimes have intertial dampers, to help minimise the sway caused by wind (or earthquake) loadings. Funnily enough the infamous Citicorp Building is a classic case.

I saw a documentary about Japanese Pagodas where the Japanese would put a vertical, flexible wooden beam in the center to act as a Tuned Mass Damper during earthquakes, offsetting the vibration effects. Recalling how hard it was for me to design a mass damping system in my earthquake structural design class, I was amazed that their architects were able to do it so accurately without computer models and simulations.

/derail

[Belz...]

Actually, I would say that the freefall times for the upper mass of floors on WTC 2 is 14 seconds...

Based on your strong intuitive sense ?

Interesting how you keep asking people to "show their numbers", and yet refuse to show yours. When you DO show your numbers, you show that you know nothing.

Heck, you don't even know that gravity ACCELERATES objects.

God is laughing at you Skibum.

Who ?

I just want to let you know... that you probably have about 55 minutes left to edit this, before it becomes permanently etched in the annals of internet history.

So you didn't understand his math ?

I need all of your help... one man cannot do it alone. United we stand... and divided we fall. I am working to unite people so that we can stand up and defeat this tyranny.

In the absense of evidence, appeal to emotions.

[ConspiRaider]

All they need to do is release a suitcase nuke or dirty bomb... wherein killing 150,000 people and you will have complete and utter chaos, which will bring about martial law. This can all happen in the span of one day... It will be like 9/11 times 50... Can you imagine it? Are you ready?
Nein, eine kleine kopf 28IQ, das ist nicht so.

Nicht briefencasen nukelich.

Nicht Bomben auf Soilen.

Aber: DER GROSSE DINOSAUREN!!! Der humungen Tyrannen Lizardlich will essen volks und strassen und gasthausen und Walmarten und roofen und seven-elevenen und fussball fielden mit EIN BEITEN! MEIN GOTT! Grosse mouthen! Zehr viel toothen! Und temperer ist nicht so gut!

Wo ist Tyrannen Lizardlich? Ach! Behinden du!!! Schwimmen du schnell!

[HeyLeroy]

Nein, eine kleine kopf 28IQ, das ist nicht so.

Nicht briefencasen nukelich.

Nicht Bomben auf Soilen.

Aber: DER GROSSE DINOSAUREN!!! Der humungen Tyrannen Lizardlich will essen volks und strassen und gasthausen und Walmarten und roofen und seven-elevenen und fussball fielden mit EIN BEITEN! MEIN GOTT! Grosse mouthen! Zehr viel toothen! Und temperer ist nicht so gut!

Wo ist Tyrannen Lizardlich? Ach! Behinden du!!! Schwimmen du schnell!


:D
Babelfish's (http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr) translation:
No, small head a 28IQ, is not so. Do not briefencasen nukelich. Not bombs on Soilen. But: THE LARGE DINOSAUREN!!! The humungen Tyrannen Lizardlich wants to eat people and roads and guest-live and Walmarten and roofen and seven elevenen and football fielden also a BEITEN! MY GOD! Large mouthen! Live much toothen! And more temperer is not so good! Where is Tyrannen Lizardlich? Oh! Behinden you!!! Swim you fast!

[JonnyFive]

:D
Babelfish's (http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr) translation:

The Tyrannen Lizardlich? Oh [rule 8], run for your lives!

[ConspiRaider]

:D
Babelfish's (http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr) translation:
Awesome, Leroy :D

I'm using hacked up Deutche talk for the fun of it, but Babelfish definitely picked up on some of the stuff. A riot!

[ConspiRaider]

The Tyrannen Lizardlich? Oh [rule 8], run for your lives!
Ja!

Runnen rapidlich!

Schwimmen jetz!

Dreiven Das Volkswagen zehr rapidlich!

Flyen das Luftwingen zehr hoch!

GEHEN SIE AUS PLANETEN TERRAN! SCHNELL!

[JonnyFive]

Ja!

Runnen rapidlich!

Schwimmen jetz!

Dreiven Das Volkswagen zehr rapidlich!

Flyen das Luftwingen zehr hoch!

GEHEN SIE AUS PLANETEN TERRAN! SCHNELL!

What's that? No, I will not look in your pants. No, I have no interest in your "pocket monster". :)

Damn Germans, always trying to get you to look at their Pokemon.

[MortFurd]

:D
Babelfish's (http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr) translation:

I think he got that from Babelfish to begin with. Oh, how that makes my head hurt.
Nein, eine kleine kopf 28IQ, das ist nicht so.

Nicht briefencasen nukelich.

Nicht Bomben auf Soilen.

Aber: DER GROSSE DINOSAUREN!!! Der humungen Tyrannen Lizardlich will essen volks und strassen und gasthausen und Walmarten und roofen und seven-elevenen und fussball fielden mit EIN BEITEN! MEIN GOTT! Grosse mouthen! Zehr viel toothen! Und temperer ist nicht so gut!

Wo ist Tyrannen Lizardlich? Ach! Behinden du!!! Schwimmen du schnell!
This is how I'd say it:
Nein, du kleine Idiot, 28IQ. So nicht.
Kein Aktenkofferatombomben.
Kein Attentate auf den eigenenen Boden.
Aber: Grossen Dinosauriern. Der gigantische Tyranosaurus Rex wird Menschen fressen, und Strassen und Gasthaeuser und Walmarts und Daechern und Seven-Elevens und Fussballfelder zerstoeren! Mein Gott!! Riesen maeuler mit vielen Zaehnen und ein schlechte Laune!.

Wo ist der Tyranosaurus? Ach! Hinter dir! Schwimm weg, schnell.


No, you small idiot, 28IQ. So not.
No document luggage atom bombs.
No assassination attempts on the own soil.
But: Large dinosaurs. The gigantic Tyranosaurus Rex will eat humans, and will destroy roads and hotels and Walmarts and roofs and Seven Elevens and football fields! My God!! Giant of muzzles with many teeth and bad mood!
Where is the Tyranosaurus? Oh! Behind you! Swim away, fast.

[Mr.D]

Again... I'm not crazy... I don't cook food with radiation or put things to my head that will fry my brain...




It's not that I can't accept any certain laws...it's that I can't accept/sense/perceive how these laws are applied to the WTC collapses

But you can accept/sense/perceive how the laws of electromagetism apply to microwave ovens, cell phones and your brain? I am genuinely curious about this - I can't think of a single person I know who finds electromagnetism as it relates biophysics MORE intuitive than basic mechanics.


28th. Please address this point. I am genuinely curious as to what convinced you that cell phones are "frying" peoples' brains.


(Note that you have yet to demonstrate that you understand the difference between the acceleration of an object and its velocity, nor how either relates to freefall, or terminal velocity and how all of that relate to the time it takes a real world object to fall a given distance.)


Sigh. Even a "Perry Mason" consults with experts and ensures that he actually understands what he says in court. Please demonstrate that you understand at least three of the above bolded terms in scientific context.

[The_Fire]

28th. Please address this point. I am genuinely curious as to what convinced you that cell phones are "frying" peoples' brains.


Especially when one think of how many are using hand-free sets these days....

[JonnyFive]

Especially when one think of how many are using hand-free sets these days....

The headset also emits death rays. Duh.

[The_Fire]

The headset also emits death rays. Duh.

Depends: Wire sets or Blue Tooth?:D

[28th Kingdom]

This is simply unbelievable... look at the black propaganda, being used against me... notice the numbers being used in these different posts... you people can't even get your facts straight... that's a dead give away. I had to go back and edit my original post, just to clarify that I didn't say this...

Also, none of these link back to any of my posts... that's the second dead give away of black propaganda at work.[/URL] (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237469#post2237469)

[URL]http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237583#post2237583

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237682#post2237682

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237563#post2237563

[ConspiRaider]

I think he got that from Babelfish to begin with. Oh, how that makes my head hurt.

This is how I'd say it:
Nein, du kleine Idiot, 28IQ. So nicht.
Kein Aktenkofferatombomben.
Kein Attentate auf den eigenenen Boden.
Aber: Grossen Dinosauriern. Der gigantische Tyranosaurus Rex wird Menschen fressen, und Strassen und Gasthaeuser und Walmarts und Daechern und Seven-Elevens und Fussballfelder zerstoeren! Mein Gott!! Riesen maeuler mit vielen Zaehnen und ein schlechte Laune!.

Wo ist der Tyranosaurus? Ach! Hinter dir! Schwimm weg, schnell.
That's pretty much what I was trying to say.

I'd never heard of Babelfish until about 10 minutes ago :)

I was actually just hacking together German and Germanly words (Germanly?) just from what I remember back in the early 70s, when I took German in the 9th and 10th grades.

Accuracy not critical, fur mich. (Borrowed that credo from the twoofers)

[chacal]

Nein, eine kleine kopf 28IQ, das ist nicht so.

Nicht briefencasen nukelich.

Nicht Bomben auf Soilen.

Aber: DER GROSSE DINOSAUREN!!! Der humungen Tyrannen Lizardlich will essen volks und strassen und gasthausen und Walmarten und roofen und seven-elevenen und fussball fielden mit EIN BEITEN! MEIN GOTT! Grosse mouthen! Zehr viel toothen! Und temperer ist nicht so gut!

Wo ist Tyrannen Lizardlich? Ach! Behinden du!!! Schwimmen du schnell!


Ja ja sehr komisch. Spinnst du da oder was? Die dinosauren sind tot dumkopf. Oder mein Gott hat die böse globalisten die dinosauren zUruck gebracht. Jetzt mUssen wir google.

[JonnyFive]

Depends: Wire sets or Blue Tooth?:D

Doesn't matter, they both emit death rays.

So do XBox Live headsets, iPod headphones, computer monitors, power lines, microwave ovens, and certain breeds of cat (Persian, Siamese, and those ugly hairless ones... I'm just saying, they're not very cute is all).

[MortFurd]

28th. Please address this point. I am genuinely curious as to what convinced you that cell phones are "frying" peoples' brains.



Sigh. Even a "Perry Mason" consults with experts and ensures that he actually understands what he says in court. Please demonstrate that you understand at least three of the above bolded terms in scientific context.
That "Perry Mason" thing must have been a Freudian slip. As has been posted elsewhere, I tend towards the "Mason Jar moment" (http://www.completealbumlyrics.com/lyric/60257/Roger+Miller+-+CHUG-A-LUG.html) theory.


Grape wine in a mason jar
Homemade and brought to school
By a friend of mine after class
Me and him and this other fool
Decide that we'll drink up what's left
Chug-a-lug, so help thyself
First time for everything
Mmm, my ears still rang.

[JonnyFive]

Also, noticed how the majority of these don't even link back to any of my posts... that's the second dead give away of black propaganda at work.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot is "black propaganda"?

[uk_dave]

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot is "black propaganda"?


That white men can't dance?

oooops no, that's true....

[MortFurd]

That's pretty much what I was trying to say.

I'd never heard of Babelfish until about 10 minutes ago :)

I was actually just hacking together German and Germanly words (Germanly?) just from what I remember back in the early 70s, when I took German in the 9th and 10th grades.

Accuracy not critical, fur mich. (Borrowed that credo from the twoofers)
Na, dann. Alle Achtung. Nicht schlecht fuer nur zwei Jahre Deutsch.

Good job.

[maccy]

This is simply unbelievable... look at the black propaganda, being used against me... notice the numbers being used in these different posts... you people can't even get your facts straight... that's a dead give away. I had to go back and edit my original post, just to clarify that I didn't say this...

Also, noticed how the majority of these don't even link back to any of my posts... that's the second dead give away of black propaganda at work.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237469#post2237469

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237468#post2237468

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237583#post2237583

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237682#post2237682

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237563#post2237563

Astonishing lies! Does he really think that anyone will believe him?

If he didn't say it, why did he have to edit his post? Surely the unedited post would have shown he didn't say it?

Interesting, also, that his edit is some time after the first posts that quote him.

Written in the 3rd person because 28th has me on ignore.

[The_Fire]

Astonishing lies! Does he really think that anyone will believe him?

If he didn't say it, why did he have to edit his post? Surely the unedited post would have shown he didn't say it?

Interesting, also, that his edit is some time after the first posts that quote him.

Written in the 3rd person because 28th has me on ignore.

And THAT is the reason why I almost always quote the entire posts when dealing with certain individuals. I wonder what would happen if the mod/admins restricted the edit time to 30 minutes.....

[ConspiRaider]

Ja ja sehr komisch. Spinnst du da oder was? Die dinosauren sind tot dumkopf. Oder mein Gott hat die böse globalisten die dinosauren zUruck gebracht. Jetzt mUssen wir google.
:D

I don't know what the hell's the matter with me, of course 'very' is 'sehr', and I kept saying 'zehr'. High school German, whaddya expect? I liked the language, I remember that, but like so many of us Yanks, we take these languages and then never use them. They fade away....

[A W Smith]

Guess that was a Kodak moment with his underwear around his ankles beneath the bleachers. He pulled them up but was caught on tape

[MortFurd]

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot is "black propaganda"?
In this case, it's 28IQ changing his post at least twice times.

There's the first post where he claimed it would take 4.7 seconds for a piece of steel to fall 100Meters, then there's a change to 5.6 seconds, followed by him removing the calculation altogether.

Various people quoted him at various times and got different versions, which 28IQ claims were changed by the people posting them. Since the quotes themselves come in sets of identical posts, we must assume that several JREF posters got together and agreed to run a smeer campaign against 28IQ to make him look like an idiot. Then the conspirators farked up, and posted different versions.:rolleyes:

28IQ, doesn't it suck to think in paranoid fantasies all the time?

[Belz...]

This is simply unbelievable... look at the black propaganda, being used against me...

Not everything's about you, Perry.

[Belz...]

(stuff)

Gosh, 28th is really just a liar, isn't he ?

Well, that explains a lot

[beachnut]

This is simply unbelievable... look at the black propaganda, being used against me... notice the numbers being used in these different posts... you people can't even get your facts straight... that's a dead give away. I had to go back and edit my original post, just to clarify that I didn't say this...

Also, none of these link back to any of my posts... that's the second dead give away of black propaganda at work.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237583#post2237583

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237682#post2237682

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237563#post2237563

You are starting to fail! Your physics efforts were graded with an F, you had two tries, bad numbers!

Then you failed to turn in a complete paper! Darn - F (three Fs)

Now you have started a talk only thread! Seems you have no math or physics in your bag of lies.

[chipmunk stew]

This is simply unbelievable... look at the black propaganda, being used against me... notice the numbers being used in these different posts... you people can't even get your facts straight... that's a dead give away. I had to go back and edit my original post, just to clarify that I didn't say this...

Also, none of these link back to any of my posts... that's the second dead give away of black propaganda at work.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237583#post2237583

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237682#post2237682

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237563#post2237563
You lie.

Here I linked to the last time that post was quoted before you edited it:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237697#post2237697

This is every time the post was quoted before you edited it:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237444#post2237444
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237446#post2237446
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237453#post2237453
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237468#post2237468
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237481#post2237481

[HeyLeroy]

Geez, 28th, if you believe that others are misquoting you by changing your words, REPORT IT TO THE MODS! It's very much against the rules here, you know.

Filthy liar.

[jsfisher]

Geez, 28th, if you believe that others are misquoting you by changing your words, REPORT IT TO THE MODS! It's very much against the rules here, you know.

Filthy liar.
More trollish than filthy.

[Dave_46]

What has happened to this thread?

I thought that modeltrain in your avatar was yours. <snip>

The picture in my avatar is not a model, but a picture that didn't reduce well. I took it in April last year (2006) when the local train operator arranged some special runs with steam to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the opening of the Great Central line into London.

Dave

[Anti-sophist]

Rofl. Classic.

Ahem.

Last edited by 28th Kingdom : Today at 04:30 AM.

[HeyLeroy]

I wonder if Darat would be able to somehow include the 'last edited at' stamp into the quote function for when filthy liars like this accuse others of this kind of crap.

[babazaroni]

This is simply unbelievable... look at the black propaganda, being used against me... notice the numbers being used in these different posts... you people can't even get your facts straight... that's a dead give away. I had to go back and edit my original post, just to clarify that I didn't say this...

Also, none of these link back to any of my posts... that's the second dead give away of black propaganda at work.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237583#post2237583

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237682#post2237682

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237563#post2237563

Dude, man-up. You know you edited your post. When you quote a post that has a quote in it, you don't get the quote. You have to cut and paste the text, then put quote tags around it. Sorry they did not go to the extra effort and make the quote tag point back to your original text.

One of the people on your ignore list was able to quote you here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237444#post2237444). Everyone else seems to have copied this text.

Edit: Actually, it looks like a few more were able to quote the original text.

[HeyLeroy]

Dude, man-up. (snip)
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/6197458857f77964a.gifYep, that'll happen!

Actually, only one doesn't point directly to the original, but the other two do.

[HeyLeroy]

This is simply unbelievable... look at the black propaganda, being used against me... notice the numbers being used in these different posts... you people can't even get your facts straight... that's a dead give away. I had to go back and edit my original post, just to clarify that I didn't say this...

Also, none of these link back to any of my posts... that's the second dead give away of black propaganda at work.(snip)

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/61974547713022614.gif

Another fine example of the intellectual integrity of the 9/11 Truth bowel Movement.

[Redtail]

I didn't say that... they're making this crap up.

This is simply unbelievable... look at the black propaganda, being used against me... notice the numbers being used in these different posts... you people can't even get your facts straight... that's a dead give away. I had to go back and edit my original post, just to clarify that I didn't say this...

Also, none of these link back to any of my posts... that's the second dead give away of black propaganda at work.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...83#post2237583 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237583#post2237583)

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...82#post2237682 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237682#post2237682)

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...63#post2237563 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237563#post2237563)

I'd say the dead give away is the fact that when you edited your post, you didn't leave your original answer, just denied what the others quoted.

[Kage]

I'm just surprised that 28th has started to understand freefall enough to see that the old post was so wrong.

[defaultdotxbe]

I'm just surprised that 28th has started to understand freefall enough to see that the old post was so wrong.
im not so sure he understands it, i think maybe he just realizes we understand it better, and since we were so amused by his post it must have been really bad

[Spindrift]

I'm just surprised that 28th has started to understand freefall enough to see that the old post was so wrong.

No, I think he just understands that he doesn't understand freefall.

[Firestone]

This is simply unbelievable... look at the black propaganda, being used against me... notice the numbers being used in these different posts... you people can't even get your facts straight... that's a dead give away. I had to go back and edit my original post, just to clarify that I didn't say this...

Also, none of these link back to any of my posts... that's the second dead give away of black propaganda at work.[/URL] (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237469#post2237469)

[URL]http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237583#post2237583

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237682#post2237682

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237563#post2237563First you post rubbish, then you cheat by deleting it, then you accuse others of dirty tricks? :mad:

To be perfectly clear, do you claim that Architect (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2237444&postcount=874), Skibum (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2237446&postcount=876), uk_dave (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2237468&postcount=884), beachnut (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2237481&postcount=890) and I (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2237453&postcount=877) made up your post about freefall times?

Maybe the forum-software allows the mods to view the consecutive versions of a post. That would expose this incredible lie of 28th Kingdom!

28th Kingdom, you lie about 9/11, you accuse people of crimes without any evidence, you mock the victims of 9/11, your posts are a disgrace for the school(s) you spent some time at, and now you lie about what's going on on this forum. How low get one get? :confused:

[aggle-rithm]

28th. Please address this point. I am genuinely curious as to what convinced you that cell phones are "frying" peoples' brains.






If I suffered from the dearth of neurons that 28K does, I guess I wouldn't take any chances, either.

[A W Smith]

Guess that was a Kodak moment with his underwear around his ankles beneath the bleachers. He pulled them up but was caught on tape

OK ill admit I was wrong. He didn't pull them up. They are now tangled up and backward on his ankles. With skid-marks even. Dude stop your making it worse!

[Bell]

This is simply unbelievable... look at the black propaganda, being used against me... notice the numbers being used in these different posts... you people can't even get your facts straight... that's a dead give away. I had to go back and edit my original post, just to clarify that I didn't say this...

Also, none of these link back to any of my posts... that's the second dead give away of black propaganda at work.[/URL] (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237469#post2237469)

[URL]http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237583#post2237583

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237682#post2237682

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2237563#post2237563

First off, amazing that you link to my post, while I am on your ignore list.

Second, this post got you reported, for acusing us of editing your quoted post.

[Fnord]

Those of us who are trained in and rely on the Scientific Method follow these steps:

1) Define the question. This is a simple question, usually of the form "What effect will result from this cause?"

2) Gather information and resources. Research similar questions and their answers. Determine if someone else has already answered your question with the scientific method.

3) Form hypothesis. The statement is of the form "A certain change in a certain system will result in certain events." It is also called the model (which is much easier to spell).

4) Perform experiments and collect data. Computer simulations are sometimes used, but nothing beats the old "Let's try different ways to collapse a buildng and record the events during the collapse."

5) Analyze the data. Does the data fit the model in all cases, is there a statistical spread, or does the data outright contradict the model?

6) Interpret the data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypotheses. If the data matches the model, then flesh out the details of the model. If the data does not fit the model, then change the hypothesis (NOT the data) and start over at step 2.

7) Publish your results. Expect others to draw dissenting conclusions. In fact, demand that they do! Not as a challenge to their expertise, but as a challenge to yours.

8) Formulate a theory. This is done only after an exhaustive peer-group review of the data, research methods, and reasoning processes that led to the theory. The theory itself can be proven repeatedly and independently.

(Currently, for example, "String Theory" is a misnomer (it's really an hypothesis), as there is no experimental evidence, virtual or otherwise, to support it. "Relativity Theory" has been suported (so far) by experimental evidence.)

"Truthers" will follow the "Common Sense" method, which is:

1) Form a theory. Key Rule: "Whatever the one can imagine is possible."

2) Challenge knowledgeable experts. Key rule: "Imagination is more important than knowledge."

3) Gather information to support the theory. Key Rule: "Whatever is possible must be true."

4) Publish the theory as fact. Key Rule: "I've made up my mind, so don't bother me with facts."

Science starts with a question and ends with a theory, which can itself be brought into further question; while "Common Sense" starts with a theory, and rejects all questions, since the theory is falaciously accepted as fact.

For example, the Scientific Method has revealed that Iraq did not have any weapons of mass destruction, while "Common Sense" accepted as fact that Iraq had innumerable stockpiles of WMD's. In this case, the Scienctific Method showed the way to peace, while "Common Sense" led to war.

"Common Sense" ain't as common as the Truthers want us to believe.

-Fnord of Dyscordia-

[CHF]

28th Kingdom

What was going to stop or even slow down 140,000 tons falling down?

The 65th floor? The 37th?

What?

[Skibum]

First off, amazing that you link to my post, while I am on your ignore list.

Second, this post got you reported, for acusing us of editing your quoted post.

I was thinking of doing the same. Going back and editing his own post only makes his true colors shine through, accusing several members of fabricating what we quoted is just beyond belief.

While I personally don't think much of 28th Kingdom, I would have guessed he had more integrity than that.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1028145a2ddbf3d718.jpg

[HeyLeroy]

:D Great pic, Skibum! Can I use it some time?

[Big Les]

Just to highlight this weasel's shenanigans:

Unbelievable. I was online when his post hadn't yet been edited (needless to say, that's exactly what was there), but to be honest his tinfoil crap about cell phones, microwaves and "unprocessed" food eclipsed his dodgy maths for me.

[CHF]

28th Kingdom, have you ever thought of becoming an engineer?

You seem to think you know more about building collapses than engineers do....and the twoof movement has no structural engineers of note.

So how about you go to school, become an engineer and then you can enlighten the rest of the world's engineers as to what they're missing.

You'd be a hero, dude!

What say you?

[CHF]

I believe they were some kind of star wars rocket/beam/lasers. It's kind of hard to explain - but I mean... they are like strong and fast... you know? Oh yea... and invisible... so no evidence is left in sight... that was the clever part of the whole blackjack cards.

Ah so you're a parody of a twoofer.

Good one indeed. Know what's sad? I've met REAL ones with the exact same logic as your character. Well done.

[Skibum]

:D Great pic, Skibum! Can I use it some time?
Sure, use the new address though, I just uploaded it to the JREF image server.

[Minadin]

What is the freefall time for a 415m tall steel-structured building?


That's kind of dishonestly worded, but an object starting at rest, experiencing freefall accelleration for 415 meters, would travel that distance in under 9 seconds,.

[Fnord]

28K is added to my "Wizards of Woo-Woo" list, which includes Sylvia Browne, Uri Geller, current president George Bush, and my ex-wife.

-Fnord of Dyscordia-

[Bell]

What has happened to this thread?



The picture in my avatar is not a model, but a picture that didn't reduce well. I took it in April last year (2006) when the local train operator arranged some special runs with steam to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the opening of the Great Central line into London.

Dave

Ah, I thought it was a big scalemodel of a steamtrain, one of those that really run on steam. Thanks for clearing that up.

ETA: Hey, just realized... here's a shining example of common sense at work for you :)

[slingblade]

Quoting myself, I now have evidence that 28th thinks this post:


Blown any whistles yet, 28? Told anyone who could actually act upon your information what you know?

Why are you just sitting on this important, life-saving information?

You've done it, right? You've proven the NIST theory false, so you know.
So what are you doing with any of it? Are you becoming part of the problem?

Are you a LIHOPPER shill for the government, 28th? Allowing them to get away with murder?

means I have now converted and believe 9/11 was an inside job. If I will confess to him I believe, he will not tell on me.

28th, I will explain this post to you, okay?


IF YOU HAVE EVIDENCE THAT THE TRAGEDIES OF 9/11/2001 WERE COMMITTED BY OUR GOVERNMENT, AND YOU DO NOTHING WITH THAT EVIDENCE, YOU ARE GUILTY AS AN ACCESSORY AFTER THE FACT.

IF YOU KNOW "THEY" DID IT, AND YOU CAN PROVE IT, AND YOU DONT, YOU ARE ONE OF THEM AND ARE HELPING THEM TO COVER IT UP.

Now. What are you doing with your evidence, 28th? Are you covering it up for the government? Are you helping those YOU believe murdered thousands of your fellow citizens?

Have you become complicit, my lad?

I will continue to wait for you to report what you know to someone who can take the next step. I will wait for all of you to alert the media, get them to take you as seriously as you take yourselves, and I will expect to hear reports of your activities on all major news sources around the world, because trust me, boy, this would be news. If it were true.

























so, is it true? can you prove it? then go to it, boy.

[CHF]

so, is it true? can you prove it? then go to it, boy.

Submitting research to an engineering journal would be a good first step.

[Skibum]

Submitting research to an engineering journal would be a good first step.

I just hope he includes his fall time calculations, so the people at the journal can get as big a laugh as we did here.

[slingblade]

Submitting research to an engineering journal would be a good first step.

Exactly. Something like that.

I've already stated what I believe to be true, in another post. But 28th and his ilk are sooooo convinced of their own truth, I wonder that they are willing to JAQ off here, rather than try to save the rest of us.

What a waste of time, when lives are at stake. I mean, they are, aren't they? We keep getting called shills for believing what we believe.

What are those of you who believe our government did this to its own people, and yet do nothing with what you know? You can prove this! You keep saying it over and over. So prove it! Save us!

Or shut up.

[CHF]

Exactly. Something like that.

I've already stated what I believe to be true, in another post. But 28th and his ilk are sooooo convinced of their own truth, I wonder that they are willing to JAQ off here, rather than try to save the rest of us.

What a waste of time, when lives are at stake. I mean, they are, aren't they? We keep getting called shills for believing what we believe.

What are those of you who believe our government did this to its own people, and yet do nothing with what you know? You can prove this! You keep saying it over and over. So prove it! Save us!

Or shut up.

Frankly, I think a lot of twoofers say what they do cuz they like being a part of something.

Let's face it - if the twoofers HONESTLY thought Bush was capable and willing to kill 3,000 Americans in such an intricate plot....would they parade around on message boards or at Ground Zero announcing that they know this? Hell no! They'd be terrified of Bush's goons kicking down their door and dragging them off to a mass grave.

That they apparently DON'T fear this is revealing.

[Architect]

Surely they'd emigrate (but, like, who would have them?)

[Bell]

Surely they'd emigrate (but, like, who would have them?)

Mahmoud Ahmawhatshisface of Iran.

[Horatius]

Quoting myself, I now have evidence that 28th thinks this post:




means I have now converted and believe 9/11 was an inside job. If I will confess to him I believe, he will not tell on me.



I don't quite get this line. Was he trying to blackmail you with PMs or something?

[slingblade]

I don't quite get this line. Was he trying to blackmail you with PMs or something?


No, no blackmail. I was free to confess my change of heart, and he would hold it in confidence. I made no such offer to him, however.

That no such change of heart exists, or can be discerned from anything I've said, is indicative of his overall reasoning skills, especially as concerns the written word.

I just think we should change tactics, maybe. It's clear as a concrete core we aren't getting anywhere, so I say it's time to put up or shut up. Make them take this fully public, each and every one of them.

If you think our government did this to us, you are helping them by not making a huge stink, publicly and loudly demanding more investigations, and revealing more openly what you know.

In fact, CTers, they could already be planning another one.

In another city.

Which will kill thousands more. Maybe even millions, this time.

What are you doing about it? This is important!! If you had known then what you say you know now, would you have stopped them the first time, or just yakked anonymously on internet forums about it until people laughed at you and could no longer take you seriously?

Your time is running out, boys. Bush is leaving office soon, and the Dems already have control. For our sakes, if you really know anything, you have a duty to us all to declare it.

F&@k the government. The longer you stay here prattling on, the more of a traitor you become to your families, your neighbors, your fellow citizens.

If you know something, start yelling. You have a limited time to be a hero, you know. These chances don't last forever.

[Architect]

You'd better watch. One of them might not recognise the irony/sarcasm in that posting and actually go and try and "do" something about it.

[slingblade]

You'd better watch. One of them might not recognise the irony/sarcasm in that posting and actually go and try and "do" something about it.

There's no irony, no sarcasm there.

I'm serious. Wouldn't you be? What would you do, or expect others to do, if they had the info the CTers say they have? They say they can prove our own government killed its own people.

Sorry, but in the great big real world, people who have knowledge of crimes and say nothing are called accessories. These guys say they have enough proof that "9/11 was an inside job" that it convinced them. It is a responsible act to do nothing with that info? Is it ethical?

"Loose Change" didn't have quite the effect I'd expect, given the topic. Maybe everyone should try again, and bigger.

I'd suggest they go to the press, but the press is in on it too. All media is in on this huge conspiracy. That "Loose Change" is a film, and films are a form of media...well, that's unfortunate. Okay, all media except for CT media is in on it.

But Im not being sarcastic at all. I'm saying if you have evidence of mass murder and you keep it relatively to yourself, you are complicit in that mass murder. We can JAQ around like this for years, but to what point?

It's time to fish or cut bait, boys. We're nobodies here, for the most part; just average citizens of various countries talking on an internet forum.
You're wasting tme with us. You have important work to do to prevent this ever happening again......don't you?

[Architect]

Yea, but Americans have access to automatic weapons and all kinds of sh***.

Starting a political protest or campaigning do not strike me as being the kind of things that the woowoos we deal with would do first.

:boxedin:

[slingblade]

Yea, but Americans have access to automatic weapons and all kinds of sh***.

Starting a political protest or campaigning do not strike me as being the kind of things that the woowoos we deal with would do first.

:boxedin:

Nope, don't go there. If someone takes my advocating that they tell what they know, and turns that into gunfire, how on earth am I responsible?

You expect me to now be afraid of them, and so I, too, must remain quiet? How is that an ethical or responsible act?

If you told me in confidence that you knew who murdered the man next door, I would suggest you go to the police. How is this any different, really?

[Architect]

You've assuming that the likes of 28th or Remove Bush are sane!

I mean, look at the likes of them that think GWB carried out a military coup and really is the great Satan (I might agree with the last bit, but onyl if Satan is really stupid)



Actually you have a good underlying point; they don' have sufficient confidence in their own opinion to actually do anything constructive. They don't get off their arses and actually do ANYTHING except whine online. Compare and contrast with (say) Gravy.

[slingblade]

Actually you have a good underlying point; they don' have sufficient confidence in their own opinion to actually do anything constructive. They don't get off their arses and actually do ANYTHING except whine online. Compare and contrast with (say) Gravy.

Exactly my point. :)

If one really had knowledge of such a huge crime, one would be highly irresponsible to simply sit on it.

Those who continue to prattle and do nothing easily reveal they have nothing.

O, mah damn. What a shame.

[Architect]

Which takes us back neatly to whether the believe it - truly, madly, deeply that is.



I still think they should be kept away from automatic weapons and small children.

[Kage]

I really don't see these guys running around with guns. They may be angry, but above that, they are spineless.

[Gravy]

...Actually you have a good underlying point; they don' have sufficient confidence in their own opinion to actually do anything constructive. They don't get off their arses and actually do ANYTHING except whine online.Well, they got 1,000+ people to gather in New York and wear t-shirts on 9/11 last year. Their goal was to get mainstream media attention by shouting "9/11 was an inside job."

They failed to get the media attention, but what if they had? What if 100 camera crews and reporters surrounded them and wanted to hear their story?

Twoofers: "9/11 was an inside job!"

100 reporters: "Why do you say that?"

Twoofers: "We demand a new investigation!"

100 reporters: "Why do you say that?"

Twoofers: "The 9/11 Commission report was a whitewash!"

100 reporters: "Why do you say that?"

Twoofers: "The NIST report was a sham!"

100 reporters: "Why do you say that?"

Twoofers: "9/11 was an inside job!"


And that's it. That's all they've got.

[CHF]

Well, they got 1,000+ people to gather in New York and wear t-shirts on 9/11 last year. Their goal was to get mainstream media attention by shouting "9/11 was an inside job."

They failed to get the media attention, but what if they had? What if 100 camera crews and reporters surrounded them and wanted to hear their story?

Twoofers: "9/11 was an inside job!"

100 reporters: "Why do you say that?"

Twoofers: "We demand a new investigation!"

100 reporters: "Why do you say that?"

Twoofers: "The 9/11 Commission report was a whitewash!"

100 reporters: "Why do you say that?"

Twoofers: "The NIST report was a sham!"

100 reporters: "Why do you say that?"

Twoofers: "9/11 was an inside job!"


And that's it. That's all they've got.

There are two reasons why nothing gets done with the twoofer message.

1) they aren't confident enough to make a serious effort

2) if they do get the media attention they so desire, the media WILL seek another opinion when it comes to their claims - most likely from engineers and other experts.

And we all know where that leads.

[CHF]

they don' have sufficient confidence in their own opinion to actually do anything constructive. They don't get off their arses and actually do ANYTHING except whine online.

You know, I sometimes wonder whether our constant debunkings ARE having an effect on the loons. Sure, they'll NEVER admit it but being proven wrong over and over again HAS to shake their confidence a bit.

It's one thing to be humiliated on a message board; it's quite another matter if that humiliation is public.

Imagine if one of the typical one-sided twoofer-debunker exchanges was shown on a CNN talk show.

Imagine if Stephen Jones submitted his junk paper to an engineering journal for peer-review.

No wonder the twoofers prefer the comfort of the LC boards!

[28th Kingdom]

Twoofers: "9/11 was an inside job!"

100 reporters: "Why do you say that?"

Twoofers: "We demand a new investigation!"

100 reporters: "Why do you say that?"

Twoofers: "The 9/11 Commission report was a whitewash!"

100 reporters: "Why do you say that?"

Twoofers: "Because they said the core of each WTC Tower consisted of a hollow steel shaft that just had elevators and stairwells in it. That's WHY!"

Twoofers: "The NIST report was a sham!"

100 reporters: "Why do you say that?"

Twoofers: "Because, their job was to investigate the collapses of the WTC buildings... but they didn't investigate a single event of the collapses of the WTC buildings. They investigated the initiation of the collapses... but, gee - we all know that the upper mass falling is what initiated the collapse... what we need to know (more than what caused the initiation) is how these marvels of structural engineering and design, managed to crumble to the ground in less than 15 seconds. Forget that the buildings collapsed... we need to know why they collapsed all the way to the ground... and so quickly. That's kind of dangerous you know... we might want to figure out the culprit, so that other buildings can design against such devastating global failures in the future."

Twoofers: "9/11 was an inside job!" (bolded content 28IQ)

There... you omitted some facts... hey, do you work for the media? Well, you should... you have that technique down perfect. They (media) would probably take the above interview and prune (edit) it down to what you had.

[CHF]

28th - you STILL don't understand why 140,000 tons would smash through a building like it wasn't there?

Still need NIST to provide a Dora The Explorer cartoon to explain what is bloody obvious to the rest of us?

I can just imagine how you'd respond to an investigation into an airstrike in a war zone.

The investigation could find out who was killed, when, where, who fired the missile and why....but you'd demand to know HOW the missile tore apart the victims' bodies. As if there's some doubt as to how that happens.

That's basically what you're doing with the WTC.

[Gravy]

There... you omitted some facts... hey, do you work for the media? Well, you should... you have that technique down perfect. They (media) would probably take the above interview and prune (edit) it down to what you had.

Twoofers: "Because they said the core of each WTC Tower consisted of a hollow steel shaft that just had elevators and stairwells in it. That's WHY!" Was the 9/11 Commission report an engineering report? No, it wasn't. The construction of the towers was irrelevant to the report.

As an aside, though, do you think if the cores had been "hollow steel shafts" they would have fared less well? Provide justification for your answer.

Twoofers: "Because, their job was to investigate the collapses of the WTC buildings... but they didn't investigate a single event of the collapses of the WTC buildings. They investigated the initiation of the collapses... but, gee - we all know that the upper mass falling is what initiated the collapse... "False. You really should read that ol' NIST report. Even the FAQ. You can't be so lazy that you refuse to read a few pages, can you?

Yes, of course you can. How sad.

[DarkMagician]

Beating the dead horse:

What do you believe the shaft is made of?

If you believe they were stairwells and elevator shafts, how much air is in a stairwell or an elevator shaft? No need for exact numbers.

If it is something else, how much air would be in that shaft? Do show evidence.

This is probably tossing pearls before swine, but in the least, I'll end up on 2+8's ignore list.

[R.Mackey]

You know, I sometimes wonder whether our constant debunkings ARE having an effect on the loons. Sure, they'll NEVER admit it but being proven wrong over and over again HAS to shake their confidence a bit.
Well, don't despair. Don't forget that, in order to be a Troofer, first you have to ask yourself:

"Even though I've seen it twice, if a jetliner smashed into a building at full speed, starting a fire that raged on entire floors for an hour or more, is it possible for that building to fall?"

... and answer, without doubt or hesitation:

"No freaking way!!"

That's the entrance exam.

It kinda puts all their other blunders into perspective.

[bonavada]

someone asked for real explosions.....

found this interesting little clip and youtubed it below. a good example of what a real "footprint CD" may have sounded like at the WTC. of course this building is rather miniscule compared to the towers and the explosive sounds would have been multiplied manyfold. but the i think comparison is fair. i've yet to hear anything like the noises here on the countless videos i've watched of 9/11.

CTiWDsG1pUw

BV

[beachnut]

28th can you show us your work one more time I have to show this to my 5th graders next time we work on some math topics.

[WildCat]

Yea, but Americans have access to automatic weapons and all kinds of sh***.
Semi-automatic weapons. Full auto requires permission from the police chief.

As for the other thing, yes we have vast herds of cattle.

[The Doc]

28th can you show us your work one more time I have to show this to my 5th graders next time we work on some math topics.

I'd save it for the 3rd graders ;)

[pvt1863]

Exactly my point. :)

If one really had knowledge of such a huge crime, one would be highly irresponsible to simply sit on it.

Those who continue to prattle and do nothing easily reveal they have nothing.

O, mah damn. What a shame.

I'm with slingblade on this, and I've said this to CTs before. If I truly believed that the government was conspiring to kill its own citizens and then using that murder as a pretext for war, I would be out joining or raising a militia right now. I am 100% serious about that. Of course, the CTs have no real reply to that. If they say anything, they call me an "extremist" or something, which strikes me as a very odd thing for them to say, given what they believe. Shadow governments control our lives and spend our blood through murder and war to advance their agenda, but you have to be some kind of nut to talk about taking up arms.

I honestly cannot imagine what life is like for them, assuming they really believe all this crap (which I think, deep down, is not the case with most of them). I can't fathom getting up, taking a shower, going to work, coming home, spending free time, and then going to sleep like every other day while knowing that my government committed mass murder of its own people and may do so again. I don't know how someone with this kind of knowledge could sit on a couch and watch TV or spend hours browsing online in a world like that. How can they not do something about it?

Now this is something I do regard as common sense. If a person says that 3000 people have been murdered as an excuse to start a war but doesn't do anything about it, common sense tells me that person doesn't really believe what he is saying.

[bonavada]

Yea, but Americans have access to automatic weapons and all kinds of sh***.


aint you never bin to moss side bro?

those yanks may have a monopoly on the woo but we've got our fair share of uzi's over here too

BV

[Skibum]

Full auto requires permission from the police chief.


Actually, I believe it requires a federal permit, though where you live it might require permission from the chief as well.

[defaultdotxbe]

Semi-automatic weapons. Full auto requires permission from the police chief.

requiring permission and actually having it are two very different things, as americans we have access to full auto weapons (very easily in fact)

go to any gun show, buy a full auto gun (full auto will be disabled by law) from the same stand you can buy a kit to re-enable it, lol

my uncle bought a LAW rocket from a gun show (yes, and the kit to re-arm it)

[A W Smith]

someone asked for real explosions.....

found this interesting little clip and youtubed it below. a good example of what a real "footprint CD" may have sounded like at the WTC. of course this building is rather miniscule compared to the towers and the explosive sounds would have been multiplied manyfold. but the i think comparison is fair. i've yet to hear anything like the noises here on the countless videos i've watched of 9/11.

CTiWDsG1pUw

BV

In conventional CD the charges are tightly wrapped with geotextile fabric, then chain link fence. then plywood and timber frame around the columns to contain the energy where it is needed most and not outward. I imagine an uncontained CD would be alot louder than the example in this video.

[WildCat]

Actually, I believe it requires a federal permit, though where you live it might require permission from the chief as well.
The permit application requires the signature of your local police chief.

[WildCat]

requiring permission and actually having it are two very different things, as americans we have access to full auto weapons (very easily in fact)

go to any gun show, buy a full auto gun (full auto will be disabled by law) from the same stand you can buy a kit to re-enable it, lol

my uncle bought a LAW rocket from a gun show (yes, and the kit to re-arm it)
:USA:

[R.Mackey]

requiring permission and actually having it are two very different things, as americans we have access to full auto weapons (very easily in fact)

go to any gun show, buy a full auto gun (full auto will be disabled by law) from the same stand you can buy a kit to re-enable it, lol

my uncle bought a LAW rocket from a gun show (yes, and the kit to re-arm it)

Hate to have to do this to you, but ... evidence?

You can be imprisoned big time for selling a full-auto kit without authorization, and the Gun Show Loopholes were closed years ago. It differs from state to state, of course, but the Feds are involved in any case.

Many rifles are not that easy to convert to full-auto. The classic AR-15 line requires a receiver change, and the receiver is the one piece that the Feds track with impunity.

I also don't buy your LAW story, not at all. Even with an inert warhead the rocket segment is plenty dangerous. I might by a 40mm grenade setup with smoke rounds, if this took place over a decade ago.

In the past, of course, different story. M1 Carbines could be had and converted to full-auto without too much trouble, but that's about it.

[pvt1863]

Rifles that are designed to be semi-auto versions of full-auto weapons (AR-15's, SAR's, etc) are designed differently from their full-auto counterparts. Converting the gun to automatic takes significant work and, as R.Mackey points out, often requires a new receiver. Federal law treats receivers just like weapons -- technically, under law, the receiver is the gun.

Also, it is worth pointing out that the LAW might not be illegal on its own, which would explain why it was so easy to get a kit to make it serviceable again. I know a guy who bout a WWII anti-tank gun from a VFW post and then had it restored to working order. It is legal for him to own (he lives in Colorado), and he occasionally goes out and blows up boulders with it. I also know a guy who owns a Sherman tank. Again, perfectly legal where he lives (Pennsylvania).

[bonavada]

I imagine an uncontained CD would be alot louder than the example in this video.

exactly. and notice the cutting charge explosions on my youtube CD occur well before collapse begins, where/when exactly does ANY sound similar to these happen on 9/11 before after or during the collapses?

perhaps 28th Kingdom could explain this anomaly?

BV

[defaultdotxbe]

Hate to have to do this to you, but ... evidence?

You can be imprisoned big time for selling a full-auto kit without authorization, and the Gun Show Loopholes were closed years ago. It differs from state to state, of course, but the Feds are involved in any case.

Many rifles are not that easy to convert to full-auto. The classic AR-15 line requires a receiver change, and the receiver is the one piece that the Feds track with impunity.

I also don't buy your LAW story, not at all. Even with an inert warhead the rocket segment is plenty dangerous. I might by a 40mm grenade setup with smoke rounds, if this took place over a decade ago.

In the past, of course, different story. M1 Carbines could be had and converted to full-auto without too much trouble, but that's about it.
well the LAW didnt have some trigger mechanism which he was able to buy, hes never tried to fire so it could be missing all the good from inside the warhead

as for the loopholes closed years ago, probably, this was all about 15 years ago

also, he lives in arkansas, where for some reason he and his wife gave eachother ak-47s their first christmas, lol

[R.Mackey]

Colorado being one of those states, yes. :D My recently deceased great-uncle used to be a miner, and had prodigous stocks of dynamite, that he used to no good. Heck, he got arrested for trying to take some on an airplane once, in the 70's... just to bring it home, mind you, not for any dastardly purpose...

I guess I could be wrong about the LAW, but it still seems pretty fantastic to me.

In my home state of California, though, such things are much harder to come by.

[defaultdotxbe]

Colorado being one of those states, yes. :D My recently deceased great-uncle used to be a miner, and had prodigous stocks of dynamite, that he used to no good. Heck, he got arrested for trying to take some on an airplane once, in the 70's... just to bring it home, mind you, not for any dastardly purpose...

I guess I could be wrong about the LAW, but it still seems pretty fantastic to me.

In my home state of California, though, such things are much harder to come by.
lets just say, working or not, they have some scary stuff at those hillbilly gun shows, lol

[R.Mackey]

No argument there!

I only want to reassure our international readers that, while we are still a savage nation, we are not entirely a lawless one...

[bonavada]

Colorado being one of those states, yes. :D My recently deceased great-uncle used to be a miner, and had prodigous stocks of dynamite, that he used to no good. Heck, he got arrested for trying to take some on an airplane once, in the 70's... just to bring it home, mind you, not for any dastardly purpose...


someone i once knew spent 2 months in prison for using dynamite to poach salmon. and i don't mean poach as in a fanny craddock type of way.
he also used to catch those fish using a petrol electric generator and a long copper rod..somehow.

BV

[defaultdotxbe]

he also used to catch those fish using a petrol electric generator and a long copper rod..somehow.

BV
i think ive heard of someone doing that, they electrified the water and all the stunned fish float to the top and they just scopp them up

figured it would make a good darwin award if someone did that in an aluminum boat, lol

[Mr.D]

I only want to reassure our international readers that, while we are still a savage nation, we are not entirely a lawless one...



my uncle bought a LAW rocket from a gun show (yes, and the kit to re-arm it)

Nor, apparently are we a LAW-less one. :rolleyes:

[pvt1863]

An excuse to post my wife's and my favorite picture of us!

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8554/usel6.jpg

Luckily I have an NWO job that lets me own those.

And the evil government that the troofers say is bent on tyranny helped me buy the AR-15.http://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?image=usel6.jpg

[28th Kingdom]

So... if we all agree that the lower structure (below impact floors) could have held the weight of the upper mass in a hypothetical situation where the impact floors were removed, and the upper mass was slowly lowered onto the lower floors/structure... than what we are saying is that the force from this weight (of the upper mass) falling 50-70 feet is what caused all of the lower floors to fail.

Now NIST...claims this force increased as the collapse progressed because the upper mass was increasing in size (presumably from the floors stacking in some capacity) so, my question is... when the upper floors fell down, and first made impact with the lower structure (below the impact floors) did those floors create any resistance... or do the laws of science not apply here? If they did absorb some of the energy released by the falling upper mass... than did the floors below this point, create any resistance to the upper mass that was hurling downward? And, if so... did they absorb any of the energy? Repeat scenario for remaining floors...

The point I am trying to make... is why doesn't the resistance from each floor... slow the movement of the upper mass... and if you say the mass was growing in size due to pancaking... than what happened to the core columns, since we have all seen that a pancaking of floors wouldn't have taken out the core columns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weqBynRZGG8

Bonus Video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Awq6q5ZZUO4

Thanks.

[Arus808]

you guys make a nice looking couple.

[Arus808]

so, my question is... when the upper floors fell down, and first made impact with the lower structure (below the impact floors) did those floors create any resistance... or do the laws of science not apply here?

What do you mean it "doesn't apply".. You forgot about gravity deary. Its a force that is acting on you 24/7/365.

ONce an object is in momentum, the only thing that will stop it is a force of EQUAL or greater force acting against it. Please show how something falling at speed, can be stopped (that doesn't have wings, or a parachute attached to it)....

brush up on your newton's laws.

[defaultdotxbe]

is why doesn't the resistance from each floor... slow the movement of the upper mass...
the resistance does slow the collapse (thats why it wasnt at freefall speeds) but gravity also accelerates it

if R is less then G, it accelerates, simple math

[R.Mackey]

so, my question is... when the upper floors fell down, and first made impact with the lower structure (below the impact floors) did those floors create any resistance... or do the laws of science not apply here? If they did absorb some of the energy released by the falling upper mass... than did the floors below this point, create any resistance to the upper mass that was hurling downward? And, if so... did they absorb any of the energy? Repeat scenario for remaining floors...

The point I am trying to make... is why doesn't the resistance from each floor... slow the movement of the upper mass... and if you say the mass was growing in size due to pancaking... than what happened to the core columns, since we have all seen that a pancaking of floors wouldn't have taken out the core columns.
The lower floors did resist, and it did slow the movement of the upper mass, as already answered and even quantified for you here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2236462#post2236462), O proven liar and slanderer. Quit playing dumb.

[WildCat]

than what happened to the core columns, since we have all seen that a pancaking of floors wouldn't have taken out the core columns.
The core columns could not stand on their own. This is pretty basic stuff 28th...

[28th Kingdom]

the resistance does slow the collapse (thats why it wasnt at freefall speeds) but gravity also accelerates it

if R is less then G, it accelerates, simple math

Doesn't NIST say... the collapse increased in speed as it progressed downwards? Meaning the resistance from the lower floors didn't slow the momentum of the upper mass, but actually increased it.

[pvt1863]

The point I am trying to make... is why doesn't the resistance from each floor... slow the movement of the upper mass... and if you say the mass was growing in size due to pancaking... than what happened to the core columns, since we have all seen that a pancaking of floors wouldn't have taken out the core columns.


There are competing effects. It is essentially the increase in momentum due to increased mass and velocity versus the resistance offered by each floor. Multiple calculations presented in this forum show that the force created by the collapsing floors was orders of magnitude greater than the force each floor was designed to hold. Because of that, the resistance offerred by each floor is comparatively small. The collapsing floors drive through the intact floor, gain mass, and hit the next floor at an even greater speed (since the collapsing mass has a non-zero initial velocity when it starts towards the next floor).

As for the cores, there are a few reasons why they could fail. First of all, there was a lot of debris flying around, and it is not inconceivable that he core could be damaged by it. Secondly, the force distribution is not all vertical since the system is so chaotic. Third, the floors can pull down on the core. Finally, the floors supported the core by bracing it against buckling. Remember that the force necessary to buckle is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between supports. Without the floors, the core would probably buckle under its own weight.

you guys make a nice looking couple.
Thanks!

[defaultdotxbe]

Doesn't NIST say... the collapse increased in speed as it progressed downwards? Meaning the resistance from the lower floors didn't slow the momentum of the upper mass, but actually increased it.
if R is less than G, it accelerates


or do you still think objects fall at a constant velocity?

[28th Kingdom]

Secondly, the force distribution is not all vertical since the system is so chaotic.

I talk about probabilities and that makes me a loon... but yet, all of you get to explain your theories with an inexplicable element like chaos. It's the whole... hey man - 4455 happens... anything is possible... it's all left up to chance.

You call this science?

[28th Kingdom]

Back to freefall:

"Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos."

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

So... you all disagree with NIST that the buildings fell at near free fall speeds?

[pvt1863]

Saying a system is chaotic is a world different from saying that anything can happen. I am claiming that there may be enough horizontal force in the crashing floors to fail the increasingly unsupported core. You are saying that the horizontal forces are enough to throw 20 floors worth of building off to the side.

[The Doc]

Where does that say that the building fell at free-fall?

"Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos."


If you remove those two words NIST is on your side! Go ahead - edit your post. We all know you have made a habit of that.

[Mobyseven]

Doesn't NIST say... the collapse increased in speed as it progressed downwards? Meaning the resistance from the lower floors didn't slow the momentum of the upper mass, but actually increased it.

The resistance from the floors was not enough to actually slow the SPEED of the fall.

In fact, the resistance provided was not enough to even slow the ACCELERATION (more than a tiny, tiny bit, and only for a short moment).

In other words, the lower floors provided resistance, but not enough. Try dropping a VERY heavy rock from a height onto a few sheets of paper that are spaced out vertically from eachother. This is a (more extreme) way to demonstrate what I am talking about.

[28th Kingdom]

Another simple question... so if the material from the collapsing floors was stacking - wherein increasing the size of the upper mass... what was this material made out of? We know that the large steel outer columns were being blown to bits... and lots of concrete was being smashed into dust... so what indestructible material was the floors made out of?

[28th Kingdom]

Where does that say that the building fell at free-fall?

If you remove those two words NIST is on your side! Go ahead - edit your post. We all know you have made a habit of that.

Let's do a simple math problem... if the section above (upper mass of floors) came down at essentially freefall speeds, and the lower structure/floors were directly below this upper mass... how could the lower structure come down any slower than essential freefall...

[pvt1863]

Another simple question... so if the material from the collapsing floors was stacking wherein increasing the size of the upper mass... what was this material made out of? We know that the large steel outer columns were being blown to bits... and lots of concrete was being smashed into dust... so what indestructible material was the floors made out of?

Why does the material have to be indestructible? Rubble has mass too, you know.

There was a lot of steel that was used within the area defined by the outer columns -- you do realize that something was holding up each floor, right? So we have steel, concrete, office supplies, and basically everything that was inside the building.

[defaultdotxbe]

Let's do a simple math problem... if the section above (upper mass of floors) came down at essentially freefall speeds, and the lower structure/floors were directly below this upper mass... how could the lower structure come down any slower than essential freefall...
once again 28th, an object in freefall is not at a constant velocity, it is under a constant ACCELERATION

verrrrry big difference there

[Mashuna]

Another simple question... so if the material from the collapsing floors was stacking - wherein increasing the size of the upper mass... what was this material made out of? We know that the large steel outer columns were being blown to bits... and lots of concrete was being smashed into dust... so what indestructible material was the floors made out of?

You know, if you didn't have so many people on ignore, you'd realise that all your questions have been answered about twenty pages ago. It would save the rest of us from having to re-read the same questions over and over. Give it a try.

For example, do you now understand how this works in real life:

Doesn't NIST say... the collapse increased in speed as it progressed downwards? Meaning the resistance from the lower floors didn't slow the momentum of the upper mass, but actually increased it.

Or are you still struggling to calculate how accelleration due to gravity works?

[pvt1863]

once again 28th, an object in freefall is not at a constant velocity, it is under a constant ACCELERATION

verrrrry big difference there

I sure am glad 28th wasn't in my dynamics class in college. I liked that professor too much.

[hellaeon]

28th just go do a physics course at school.

[28th Kingdom]

once again 28th, an object in freefall is not at a constant velocity, it is under a constant ACCELERATION

verrrrry big difference there

What are you saying... I mean just spit the 4473837 3838 out. NIST says the upper mass fell essentially at freefall speeds... are you saying the structure below the falling upper mass fell slower than the upper mass?

[beachnut]

I didn't say that... they're making this crap up.

What grade level did you leave school? Are you Charlie Sheen? You should have finished high school!

Erm, what? You are aware that objects ACCELERATE at 9.8m/s-2 due to gravity, aren't you?!?!

So... if we all agree that the lower structure (below impact floors) could have held the weight of the upper mass in a hypothetical situation where the impact floors were removed, and the upper mass was slowly lowered onto the lower floors/structure... than what we are saying is that the force from this weight (of the upper mass) falling 50-70 feet is what caused all of the lower floors to fail.

Now NIST...claims this force increased as the collapse progressed because the upper mass was increasing in size (presumably from the floors stacking in some capacity) so, my question is... when the upper floors fell down, and first made impact with the lower structure (below the impact floors) did those floors create any resistance... or do the laws of science not apply here? If they did absorb some of the energy released by the falling upper mass... than did the floors below this point, create any resistance to the upper mass that was hurling downward? And, if so... did they absorb any of the energy? Repeat scenario for remaining floors...

The point I am trying to make... is why doesn't the resistance from each floor... slow the movement of the upper mass... and if you say the mass was growing in size due to pancaking... than what happened to the core columns, since we have all seen that a pancaking of floors wouldn't have taken out the core columns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weqBynRZGG8

Bonus Video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Awq6q5ZZUO4

Thanks.

Can you show us your calculations you removed? We could correct them for you.

Go to school. Come back in 4 years.

[beachnut]

What are you saying... I mean just spit the 4473837 3838 out. NIST says the upper mass fell essentially at freefall speeds... are you saying the structure below the falling upper mass fell slower than the upper mass?

What are you saying? Try to ask that again so even you can understand. Please

[defaultdotxbe]

What are you saying... I mean just spit the 4473837 3838 out. NIST says the upper mass fell essentially at freefall speeds... are you saying the structure below the falling upper mass fell slower than the upper mass?
to fall at essentially free fall speeds th eupper mass was accelerated at roughly 9.8 m/s^2

it then struck the lower mass, which provided resistance, slowing the acceleration to some value below 9.8 m/s^2, however, since acceleration was still positive, speed still increased (just at a slower rate)

im starting to think that not only do you not understand gravity, you dont understand the difference between velocity and acceleration

[pvt1863]

Talking with CTs reminds me of watching Star Trek. You can't help but believe that the writers have a mad lib program that allows them to just string unrelated scientific terms together in an effort to sound smart.

[Mashuna]

im starting to think that not only do you not understand gravity, you dont understand the difference between velocity and acceleration

I think he's already proven that he doesn't understand the difference. He won't admit it though - expect to see the same questions come back ten pages down the line.

[28th Kingdom]

once again 28th, an object in freefall is not at a constant velocity, it is under a constant ACCELERATION

No it's not... did you skip 6th grade science class?

The terminal velocity of an object falling towards the earth, in non-vacuum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum), is the speed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed) at which the gravitational (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity) force pulling it downwards is equal and opposite to the atmospheric drag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_drag) (also called air resistance) pushing it upwards. At this speed, the object ceases to accelerate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration) downwards and falls at constant speed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity

[defaultdotxbe]

No it's not... did you skip 6th grade science class?

The terminal velocity of an object falling towards the earth, in non-vacuum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum), is the speed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed) at which the gravitational (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity) force pulling it downwards is equal and opposite to the atmospheric drag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_drag) (also called air resistance) pushing it upwards. At this speed, the object ceases to accelerate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration) downwards and falls at constant speed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity
if you want to get technical, yes, but nothing on 9/11 fell long enough to reach terminal velocity so your point is moot

(oh, BTW, acceleration due to gravity is still constant even at terminal velocity, its just cancelled by resistance for a net acceleration of 0)

[beachnut]

Doesn't NIST say... the collapse increased in speed as it progressed downwards? Meaning the resistance from the lower floors didn't slow the momentum of the upper mass, but actually increased it.

Go to school and hurry back in a few years please!

Yes, it is called acceleration; gravity!

The momentum is not speed; momentum is conserved; the momentum relationship with the ever changing mass would modulate the velocity of each impact; but overall the growing mass did accelerate. (needs more work)

But 28th, you need some education.

[beachnut]

No it's not... did you skip 6th grade science class?

The terminal velocity of an object falling towards the earth, in non-vacuum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum), is the speed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed) at which the gravitational (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity) force pulling it downwards is equal and opposite to the atmospheric drag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_drag) (also called air resistance) pushing it upwards. At this speed, the object ceases to accelerate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration) downwards and falls at constant speed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity

oops, another F in physics!

[Anti-sophist]

No it's not... did you skip 6th grade science class?

The terminal velocity of an object falling towards the earth, in non-vacuum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum), is the speed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed) at which the gravitational (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity) force pulling it downwards is equal and opposite to the atmospheric drag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_drag) (also called air resistance) pushing it upwards. At this speed, the object ceases to accelerate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration) downwards and falls at constant speed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity

Hi. Right. That's terminal velocity, which is completely and utterly irrelevant to freefall.

Try here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-fall

Free fall in its strictest sense is the condition of acceleration which is due only to gravity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity)

[beachnut]

can so one explain why a human jumping from the WTC achieved terminal velocity but 40 tons of building did not!

explain mass to the young man who proves he flunked, or will soon flunk physics

[28th Kingdom]

to fall at essentially free fall speeds th eupper mass was accelerated at roughly 9.8 m/s^2

it then struck the lower mass, which provided resistance, slowing the acceleration to some value below 9.8 m/s^2, however, since acceleration was still positive, speed still increased (just at a slower rate)

im starting to think that not only do you not understand gravity, you dont understand the difference between velocity and acceleration

NIST says:

"Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos ..."

So while you claim... NIST is saying the upper mass feel through the impact floors at free fall... NIST is referring to the floors below i.e. lower structure - the level of collapse initiation i.e. impact floors - providing little resistance...wherein allowing the upper mass to fall at essential free fall.

[ConspiRaider]

Another simple question... so if the material from the collapsing floors was stacking - wherein increasing the size of the upper mass... what was this material made out of? We know that the large steel outer columns were being blown to bits... and lots of concrete was being smashed into dust... so what indestructible material was the floors made out of?
(bolding mine)

Didja ever go to Krogers or Piggly-Wiggly or really any grocery store here in the States and buy those store-brand frozen pizzas, like four of 'em for $9.99 or something?

You put one of these disc-shaped objects in the oven and then go away to finish up a chore or something - like, I dunno, straightening out the grass maybe - and you get engrossed and forget about the "pizza" in the oven.

You take that baby outta there and man - whatever they put in that crust just becomes indestructible when left baking for 45 minutes or so at 300 degrees Celsius.

Other than diamonds and zircons and the head of a certain unmentionable poster here at JREF with an astoundingly low IQ: That pizza crust is the hardest substance known to man. There's your flooring material, with no anchovies.

[Anti-sophist]

NIST says:

"Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos ..."

So while you claim... NIST is saying the upper mass feel through the impact floors at free fall... NIST is referring to the floors below i.e. lower structure - the level of collapse initiation i.e. impact floors - providing little resistance...wherein allowing the upper mass to fall at essential free fall.


That's largely correct. What you are saying, what NIST is daying, and what defaulttoxtube is saying are all largely the same. The fundamental difference is in the above post you are using words that you clearly do not fully understand.

When you try to take this knowledge and move it forward, your fundamental misunderstanding of the basic concepts makes you prone to serious error.

[28th Kingdom]

Hi. Right. That's terminal velocity, which is completely and utterly irrelevant to freefall.

Try here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-fall

Free fall in its strictest sense is the condition of accelerationwhich is due only to gravity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity)

For example, the terminal velocity of a skydiver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skydiving) in a normal free-fall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-fall) position with a closed parachute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachute) is about 195 km/h (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Km/h) (120 mph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_hour) or 54 m/s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M/s)).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity

Now you try HERE (http://www.zombo.com).

[Anti-sophist]

For example, the terminal velocity of a skydiver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skydiving) in a normal free-fall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-fall) position with a closed parachute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachute) is about 195 km/h (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Km/h) (120 mph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_hour) or 54 m/s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M/s)).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity

Now you try HERE (http://www.zombo.com).

This is false. A skydiver at terminal velocity is not said to be experiencing freefall.

You don't understand what this word means. That is patently clear.

Consult wikipedia:free-fall, please.

[beachnut]

NIST says:

"Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos ..."

So while you claim... NIST is saying the upper mass feel through the impact floors at free fall... NIST is referring to the floors below i.e. lower structure - the level of collapse initiation i.e. impact floors - providing little resistance...wherein allowing the upper mass to fall at essential free fall.

yes if you do the momentum transfer to the new mass you can use a model and see you only loose a tiny amount of energy as you destroy the building below! The mass grows that is falling; and the mass moves at a new speed consistant with the overall momentum but it continues to accelerate due to gravity. NIST is not wrong. You may wish to say it different after you finish school; see you in 4 years.

[uk_dave]

also, he lives in arkansas, where for some reason he and his wife gave eachother ak-47s their first christmas, lol


Now that's love!

[beachnut]

For example, the terminal velocity of a skydiver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skydiving) in a normal free-fall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-fall) position with a closed parachute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachute) is about 195 km/h (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Km/h) (120 mph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_hour) or 54 m/s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M/s)).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity

Now you try HERE (http://www.zombo.com).

Did you know that the massive objects on 9/11 did not reach their terminal velocity. The people jumping were close to terminal velocity, the paper was at terminal velocity, the dust was at terminal velocity.

The large pieces of building did not reach terminal velocity.

School is a great option.

[Anti-sophist]

Terminal velocity is, by and large, completely irrelevant to the discussion. His attempts to interject it underlies his complete and utter lack of knowledge of basic physics.

His continual insistence that objects at terminal velocity are in freefall underlies his completele and utter lack of scientific knowledge. In a colloquial sense, yes, they are in freefall. In a scientific sense, he is completely and utterly wrong.

This is just another case of a CTer with wikipedia and google pretending to be educated. He is being unscientific to the point of ridiculousness.

[beachnut]

For example, the terminal velocity of a skydiver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skydiving) in a normal free-fall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-fall) position with a closed parachute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachute) is about 195 km/h (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Km/h) (120 mph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_hour) or 54 m/s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M/s)).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity

Now you try HERE (http://www.zombo.com).

You forgot to explain the parameters for you 120 mph speed; would that be true at 40,000 feet?

How did pdoh do such a good job changing his mo.

How can he stop short of going bonkers when he posts to gravy; how did he learn to be so controled? Hi pdoh. You sure are dumb; Like I said I am most likely wrong but it would be the first time. lima oscar lima

sierra hotel

[Anti-sophist]

A high school physics tutorial:
http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/Phys/Class/1DKin/U1L5a.html

Allow me to suggest you read it before embarassing yourself further.


A free-falling object is an object which is falling under the sole influence of gravity. That is to say that any object which is moving and being acted upon only be the force of gravity is said to be "in a state of free fall." This definition of free fall leads to two important characteristics about a free-falling object:
Free-falling objects do not encounter air resistance.
All free-falling objects (on Earth) accelerate downwards at a rate of approximately 10 m/s/s (to be exact, 9.8 m/s/s

[28th Kingdom]

I have dominated all of you on many different topics and in many different threads... and now it's starting to get really stale and boring.. There's just no challenge to it anymore... the only defense you people have are insults and chaotic theories which defy the laws of probability and the physical world....

I really have pity for you all... and have exercised some mercy at times - but when it comes down to me clearly proving NIST wrong... all of you are reduced to nothing more than babbling children... spouting off insults.

Remember, the major difference between truthers and deniers... is that truthers want to unite (with deniers) ... truthers want to be on the same team... truthers don't want conflict... deniers only want conflict... deniers will do anything to remain divided from truthers... And, therein lies the problem...

[Dog Town]

I have dominated all of you on many different topics and in many different threads..

You guys are as bad at comedy, as you are facts!


Priceless!

DT

[Paul]

Not that you'll care 28, but there are some calculations here (http://www.911myths.com/WTCREPORT.pdf), in section 3, which explain the differences between the expected times of free fall and the actual times of collapse.

[28th Kingdom]

"All free-falling objects (on Earth) accelerate downwards at a rate of approximately 10 m/s/s (to be exact, 9.8 m/s/s"

Yea they do continue to accelerate...until they reach terminal velocity at which point they cease to accelerate... Anti-sophist you are 744 484829 484 85 4 84928.

[Paul]

I have dominated all of you on many different topics and in many different threadsAre you another Mark Lewis sock?

[defaultdotxbe]

"All free-falling objects (on Earth) accelerate downwards at a rate of approximately 10 m/s/s (to be exact, 9.8 m/s/s"

Yea they do continue to accelerate...until they reach terminal velocity at which point they cease to accelerate... Anti-sophist you are 744 484829 484 85 4 84928.
you ignored the first line there


Free-falling objects do not encounter air resistance.
All free-falling objects (on Earth) accelerate downwards at a rate of approximately 10 m/s/s (to be exact, 9.8 m/s/s


in the absense of air resistance an object never reaches a terminal velocity

[Anti-sophist]

I have dominated all of you on many different topics and in many different threads... and now it's starting to get really stale and boring.. There's just no challenge to it anymore... the only defense you people have are insults and chaotic theories which defy the laws of probability and the physical world....

I really have pity for you all... and have exercised some mercy at times - but when it comes down to me clearly proving NIST wrong... all of you are reduced to nothing more than babbling children... spouting off insults.

Remember, the major difference between truthers and deniers... is that truthers want to unite (with deniers) ... truthers want to be on the same team... truthers don't want conflict... deniers only want conflict... deniers will do anything to remain divided from truthers... And, therein lies the problem...

Heh. I love it. Your investigoogling of the basic laws of physics have failed, so it's time to irrationally declare victory in your usual paranoid/narcissitic way.

Game. Set. Match, I guess.

If you want to learn some physics, I'm more then happy to help, kid.

[Anti-sophist]

"All free-falling objects (on Earth) accelerate downwards at a rate of approximately 10 m/s/s (to be exact, 9.8 m/s/s"

Yea they do continue to accelerate...until they reach terminal velocity at which point they cease to accelerate... Anti-sophist you are 744 484829 484 85 4 84928.

Objects in (true) freefall never reach terminal velocity. You are still wrong and you are embarassing yourself. Stop. I beg you.

http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/Phys/Class/1DKin/U1L5a.html

Please read it. It's a high school physics tutorial and you are continuing to prove you do not understand this very basic high school physics. You are humiliating yourself.

[defaultdotxbe]

I have dominated all of you on many different topics and in many different threads...

http://xbehome.com/screwloosechange/pictures/homer.JPG

[beachnut]

I have dominated all of you on many different topics and in many different threads... and now it's starting to get really stale and boring.. There's just no challenge to it anymore... the only defense you people have are insults and chaotic theories which defy the laws of probability and the physical world....

I really have pity for you all... and have exercised some mercy at times - but when it comes down to me clearly proving NIST wrong... all of you are reduced to nothing more than babbling children... spouting off insults.

Remember, the major difference between truthers and deniers... is that truthers want to unite (with deniers) ... truthers want to be on the same team... truthers don't want conflict... deniers only want conflict... deniers will do anything to remain divided from truthers... And, therein lies the problem...

Yes your physics problem was wrong.

Insults; you have posted many.

Yes Fetzer and Dr Jones great buddies forever and ever.

That is three strikes; are you out?

[Redtail]

I have dominated all of you on many different topics and in many different threads... and now it's starting to get really stale and boring.. There's just no challenge to it anymore... the only defense you people have are insults and chaotic theories which defy the laws of probability and the physical world....

I really have pity for you all... and have exercised some mercy at times - but when it comes down to me clearly proving NIST wrong... all of you are reduced to nothing more than babbling children... spouting off insults.

Remember, the major difference between truthers and deniers... is that truthers want to unite (with deniers) ... truthers want to be on the same team... truthers don't want conflict... deniers only want conflict... deniers will do anything to remain divided from truthers... And, therein lies the problem...

Yet you are the only one who had to go back and edit a post then claim people were "making up" a really stupid attempt at math. :xrolleyes

[LashL]

I have dominated all of you on many different topics and in many different threads...
No, you haven't. Not even once. On any subject. Ever.

and now it's starting to get really stale and boring.. There's just no challenge to it anymore...

Oh, look, the twoofer who has proven that he has no clue about what he has tried to pass off as knowledge here is trying to feign superiority over those who exposed his lack of knowledge. Gee, colour me surprised.

the only defense you people have are insults and chaotic theories which defy the laws of probability and the physical world....

No, the derision you have received here has been fully earned by you for you constantly refuse to educate yourself. You have zero concept of the things to which you purport to have knowledge, and your only exposure to them is via Google. Your understanding of them is nil. And when those who have the requisite knowledge have kindly attempted to assist you with your extreme lack of knowledge, you simply wave your hand and continue to refuse to educate yourself.

I really have pity for you all... and have exercised some mercy at times -

BS. Complete and utter. You are a troll, plain and simple.

but when it comes down to me clearly proving NIST wrong...

:dl:

In your dreams hallucinations, 28th. You can't even do a simple calculation, as has been proven time and time again here. You have no concept whatsoever about the subjects that you spout off about and you think you've proven hundreds of actual experts wrong? That is, frankly, delusional.

all of you are reduced to nothing more than babbling children... spouting off insults.

You have earned any derision sent your way by your pathetic conduct here. You are the childish one - pretending to have knowledge that you don't have, refusing to accept responsibility for your own mistakes, lying about it when you get caught, and then stamping your feet and plugging your ears.


Remember, the major difference between truthers and deniers... is that truthers want to unite (with deniers) ... truthers want to be on the same team... truthers don't want conflict... deniers only want conflict... deniers will do anything to remain divided from truthers... And, therein lies the problem...

You appear to have some serious problems with reality, 28th.

Why is it that every time you get caught exposing your ignorance on subjects that you previously pretended to have knowledge of, you resort to stupid posts like the one quoted herein, declaring "victory" for showing your ignorance?

[The Doc]

I have noticed a new trend today amongst truthers.

It used to be:
"I'm wrong :( SO YOU ARE THE NWO WTF OMFG!"

But now it's just:
"I'm wrong :( ALL YOU EVER DO IS INSULT ME! I AM THE WIN!"

So apparently every time a conspiracy theorist is wrong - he ignores the facts that were actually put to him and claims that the critical thinker was insulting him without presenting facts.

...

[Anti-sophist]

It's amazing to me that someone that cannot master the high school definition of freefall can claim to have proven NIST wrong. That's nothing short of the most unholy marriage between ignorance and arrogance.

[beachnut]

I have dominated all of you on many different topics and in many different threads... and now it's starting to get really stale and boring.. There's just no challenge to it anymore... the only defense you people have are insults and chaotic theories which defy the laws of probability and the physical world....

I really have pity for you all... and have exercised some mercy at times - but when it comes down to me clearly proving NIST wrong... all of you are reduced to nothing more than babbling children... spouting off insults.

Remember, the major difference between truthers and deniers... is that truthers want to unite (with deniers) ... truthers want to be on the same team... truthers don't want conflict... deniers only want conflict... deniers will do anything to remain divided from truthers... And, therein lies the problem...

Today, 01:08 AM I didn't say that... they're making this crap up. Last edited by 28th Kingdom : Today at 01:30 AM.

Today, 01:09 AM I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for steel beams a certain size would be 4.7 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U)

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 4.7 = 19.505 seconds.

Today, 01:17 AM I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for flat steel beams would be 5.6 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U)

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 5.6 = 23.24 seconds.

You said you what? (pdoh)

You have dominated all of us just as you have a solid grasp on physics.

You have dominated as a liar. Will this be enough proof?

[Minadin]

So... if we all agree that the lower structure (below impact floors) could have held the weight of the upper mass in a hypothetical situation where the impact floors were removed, and the upper mass was slowly lowered onto the lower floors/structure... than what we are saying is that the force from this weight (of the upper mass) falling 50-70 feet is what caused all of the lower floors to fail.No. In a structure, you have various types of forces that are skillfully directed so as to work toward the strengths of the materials used in that particular arrangement. Dead (meaning constant) loads are carefully transferred to the ground in a certain way. When you change that static loading to be dynamic, live loads, such as a weight that is falling, they don't behave in the same way. Specifically, in the case of the towers, shear forces are at work that exceed design capacity, leading to global collapse. A shear force is one that cuts across a material, rather than being transfered length-wise.

I'll give you an example. Imagine a large, heavy truck that is resting on a small bridge. It's not much below the posted weight limit but the bridge supports it while at rest, or while driving across the span. However, if you lift the large truck with a crane and drop it on the bridge from a height, your results will not be as favorable.

Here's another. Imagine an obese woman standing on the end of a diving board. (I have had the unfortunate experience of witnessing this particular example in person, I'm afraid) Several other people of normal size have previously used this springboard to dive into the water below. It even supports her weight as she contemplates her dive. Hovever, as she bounces, and then lands to spring . . . it shatters. Why?

Doesn't NIST say... the collapse increased in speed as it progressed downwards? Meaning the resistance from the lower floors didn't slow the momentum of the upper mass, but actually increased it.Also, your understanding of how forces, and resistance to them (other forces) work is below elementary. There are a couple of things, at a bare minimum, that you need to understand.

First off, if you look at something as simple as a coefficient of friction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction) for a static body as opposed to a moving body, you will see that they are noticeably different. There's a simple test you can make of this. Take a small, cubed block of wood and place it at one end of a longer plank of the same variety. Now, slowly raise the end of the plank that the block is on to incline it. As you increase the angle, the vertical component of the force acting on the block, acting upon it to fall, increases. At a certain angle, that component will surpass the static coefficient of friction between the block and the plank, and the block will begin to accellerate toward the lower end of the plank. It won't slow down, even if you begin to lower the plank, until such a point that the kinetic friction is more than the vertical component of the force acting on the body. At that point it will begin to slow, until it stops.

Kinetic friction is almost always less than the static friction, and that's why ABS that keep your tires from skidding will stop your car faster than if your tires skid.

You also need to undertand why the forces are acting the way they are, and effecting the objects with predictable, and calculable, effects. I won't go into the calculus of an accelleration or anything like that, but perhaps I can explain some really simple vector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_vector) analysis when it comes to forces. Vectors are typically described as having a direction and a magnitude.

Picture it as a rope, that is being pulled in a certain direction at a certain rate. If you have a large force pulling on one end of the rope, it will move in the direction of that force. If you put a smaller force on the other end, pulling in the opposite direction, it will still accellerate in the direction of the larger force, but not as fast if there were no resistance. The only way that it will slow, once moving, is if the resistance force becomes larger than the pulling force. If the forces are equal, the rope will continue moving, if it was moving, or remain stopped, if it was stopped.

For instance, the force of gravity on an object is its weight, directed toward the center of the Earth, which, we will call "down" for simplicity. In a static environ, such as a built structure that is at rest, this force of gravity is resisted by the strength of materials in that building, in the exact opposite direction, "up", and actually in the exact same amount that the gravity force is pushing down.

In the case of that structure moving downward, that basically means that the downward force has exceeded the upward component capacity of that structure, just like your wood block on the wood plank. The structure won't decelerate because of the resistant force it encounters, but it will accelerate slower than it would have if the only force acting on it was downward. That's why you observed a collapse time of about 14 - 15 seconds for the structure instead of under 9, which would have been the free fall time without resistance.

[Kage]

So your problem is that the building accelerates downward as it collapsed. This is most likely what happened (I am not doing a frame by frame for you), here's why (simplified):

The falling mass would decelerate each time it encounters a new floor. This deceleration would have to be greater than the acceleration the falling mass experienced in the space between the floors for the falling mass to decelerate over its path to the ground. While this may be the case towards the top of the building, it would not happen as the collapse progressed due to the increasing falling mass. Consider the resistence offered by each floor to be constant. The force was applied to a larger and larger falling mass, decelerating the falling mass less and less as the falling mass descended. Since the falling mass is accelerating under the force of gravity, it would naturally accelerate over its path.

For your edification, were there to be no other sources of kinetic energy loss (there is in the form of friction and the higher speed that rubble would be ejected) the falling mass would approach free fall acceleration for a WTC tower of infinite hight.

I hate using physics for this. Reminds me of college, and I just don't like thinking about 9/11 as a physics problem. People are more than numbers.

[28th Kingdom]

All of these calculations coming from the same wizards who brought us this superhuman display of mathematical excellence:

If someone paid 200 million for a building and then received 3 billion on an insurance claim due to the buildings' collapse... but then turned around and built a 5 billion building to replace the first building... well, damn - this poor guy just lost 2 billion dollars...

I'm not kidding, folks... how could I possibly make this 4837 up?

[beachnut]

I have dominated all of you on many different topics and in many different threads... and now it's starting to get really stale and boring.. There's just no challenge to it anymore... the only defense you people have are insults and chaotic theories which defy the laws of probability and the physical world....

I really have pity for you all... and have exercised some mercy at times - but when it comes down to me clearly proving NIST wrong... all of you are reduced to nothing more than babbling children... spouting off insults.

Remember, the major difference between truthers and deniers... is that truthers want to unite (with deniers) ... truthers want to be on the same team... truthers don't want conflict... deniers only want conflict... deniers will do anything to remain divided from truthers... And, therein lies the problem...

You sure blew us away with your 150 IQ and your CT physics. Who gave you the IQ test? Are you sure they did not mean 15?

[beachnut]

All of these calculations coming from the same wizards who brought us this superhuman display of mathematical excellence:

If someone paid 200 million for a building and then received 3 billion on an insurance claim due to the buildings' collapse... but then turned around and built a 5 billion building to replace the first building... well, damn - this poor guy just lost 2 billion dollars...

I'm not kidding, folks... how could I possibly make this 4837 up?

Today, 01:08 AM I didn't say that... they're making this crap up. Last edited by 28th Kingdom : Today at 01:30 AM.


Today, 01:09 AM I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for steel beams a certain size would be 4.7 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U)

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 4.7 = 19.505 seconds.

Today, 01:17 AM I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for flat steel beams would be 5.6 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U)

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 5.6 = 23.24 seconds.

Now how do you calculate this again?

You do have a way with numbers.

And the answer is? You always make it up! We were wondering why?

[Firestone]

All of these calculations coming from the same wizards who brought us this superhuman display of mathematical excellence:

If someone paid 200 million for a building and then received 3 billion on an insurance claim due to the buildings' collapse... but then turned around and built a 5 billion building to replace the first building... well, damn - this poor guy just lost 2 billion dollars...

I'm not kidding, folks... how could I possibly make this 4837 up?Your understanding of financial matters is as deep as your understanding of the most basic laws of physics. :rolleyes:

Nothing in what you write is true, absolutely nothing. As usual, you've got it all wrong. :jaw-dropp

When will you apologize for claiming that we made your stupid post about freefall up? When will you do the honorable thing?

[maccy]

All of these calculations coming from the same wizards who brought us this superhuman display of mathematical excellence:

If someone paid 200 million for a building and then received 3 billion on an insurance claim due to the buildings' collapse... but then turned around and built a 5 billion building to replace the first building... well, damn - this poor guy just lost 2 billion dollars...

I'm not kidding, folks... how could I possibly make this 4837 up?

You may as well have made it up for all the truth there is in it.

Do you really believe that an Insurance company will make payment larger than the amount of the loss?

As I'm on ignore, this is another reminder of reality you won't see; but, for anybody who's curious, here's a discussion of insurance from somebody who actually knows what they're talking about:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=70904

[Firestone]

You may as well have made it up for all the truth there is in it.

Do you really believe that an Insurance company will make payment larger than the amount of the loss?

As I'm on ignore, this is another reminder of reality you won't see; but, for anybody who's curious, here's a discussion of insurance from somebody who actually knows what they're talking about:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=70904Let me quote that for our local Renaissance-genius.

Another good thread is here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=65615). In post 8, LashL gives very detailled info about the insurance.

And as usual, 911myths (http://www.911myths.com/html/windfall.html) has a lot of useful information about Silverstein's "profit".

[uk_dave]

You may as well have made it up for all the truth there is in it.

Do you really believe that an Insurance company will make payment larger than the amount of the loss?

As I'm on ignore, this is another reminder of reality you won't see; but, for anybody who's curious, here's a discussion of insurance from somebody who actually knows what they're talking about:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=70904

Which is just about everyone except liar 28K

[catbasket]

In the dim and distant past this was an interesting thread:
... what other examples of the real world can we present which are counter intuitive to common sense?
... but then 28th Kingdom turned up.

Common sense would seem to indicate that I would have no chance of translating the Welsh weather forecast in Architect's avatar as I paid little or no attention to Welsh language lessons in school - and only vaguely remembered that "ac yn" translates approximately as "and is".

However, google is my friend, and she told me that "wyntog" = "windy" ... so I guessed that "Troi'n wyntog ac yn lawog" would translate as "It's going to be wet and windy". Of course I couldn't possibly post that guess on a Skeptics' forum so I had to do some additional research (ask my 18yr old niece - appeal to authority) who confirmed my guesstimated translation as
you got the translation perfectly. It's going to be windy and wet.
Somebody did ask for the translation, though I've since read far too many "common sense" posts by 28K to be able to remember who it was that asked. Which reminds me -

28th Kingdom, please stop posting. Do you not realise that each additional post you make here just adds to the mountain of evidence that you have no idea what you are talking about?

There's no shame in being ignorant of basic physics, but to put people on ignore when they are simply showing you the errors in your "common sense" is willful ignorance, which in my opinion is tantamount to stupidity.

[Architect]

Semi-automatic weapons. Full auto requires permission from the police chief.




Ahhh, just semi-automatic military grade arms. That's okay then.....





...meanwhile, I now know what my Avatar finally means!

:)

[Architect]

Common sense would seem to indicate that I would have no chance of translating the Welsh weather forecast in Architect's avatar as I paid little or no attention to Welsh language lessons in school - and only vaguely remembered that "ac yn" translates approximately as "and is".

However, google is my friend, and she told me that "wyntog" = "windy" ... so I guessed that "Troi'n wyntog ac yn lawog" would translate as "It's going to be wet and windy". Of course I couldn't possibly post that guess on a Skeptics' forum so I had to do some additional research (ask my 18yr old niece - appeal to authority) who confirmed my guesstimated translation as correct.



It's all wasted now that our pal RemoveBush has been banned, anyway......


Dydd Mawrth gwlyb eto

Yn fore a phrynhawn diflas tu hwnt. Yn gymylog iawn, yn wlyb iawn ac yn wyntog iawn. Llifogydd yn bosib. Dwr yn casglu ar y ffyrdd.

Dydd Mercher: Rhai cyfnodau clir o gwmpas wrth i`r ffrynt achludol wthio lawr i`r De Ddwyrain.

Dydd Iau: Mwy o dywydd gwlyb, cymylog a gwyntog yn anffodus.

[catbasket]

Dydd Mawrth gwlyb eto

Yn fore a phrynhawn diflas tu hwnt. Yn gymylog iawn, yn wlyb iawn ac yn wyntog iawn. Llifogydd yn bosib. Dwr yn casglu ar y ffyrdd.

Dydd Mercher: Rhai cyfnodau clir o gwmpas wrth i`r ffrynt achludol wthio lawr i`r De Ddwyrain.

Dydd Iau: Mwy o dywydd gwlyb, cymylog a gwyntog yn anffodus.

Tuesday, goolies again.
In the morning and afternoon you'll be polishing your dog. Very gummy, very bad teeth, very windy due to beans. Bob the Builder goes to the library. the water in the castle is on the river.

Wednesday: Singing in the rain at all points of the compass with the National Front invading from the east.

Thursday: Two blokes walk into a pub, one turns to the other and says "daffodils".


Or maybe not.

[Architect]

Erm.....bora da?





I mean, I'm from the Western Isles for heaven's sake. All the Welsh I know I got from watching some S4C once. Something about Postman Pat and some missing postal orders. And even then, I'd seen the episode already in Gaelic. Ivor the Engline! Fireman Sam! Superted!

[catbasket]

And a good morning to you too.

Up until a couple of years ago i thought Pingu was Welsh (well, he spoke Welsh on S4C). But what can you expect from someone who thought Rolf Harris and Shirley Bassey were from Cardiff ;)

[MRC_Hans]

I have dominated all of you on many different topics and in many different threads... and now it's starting to get really stale and boring.. There's just no challenge to it anymore...

Ahhh, ye olde troll fall-back: After having been used to whipe the floor, declare yourself the winner, claim you are now bored and leave. Last ditch action to save what self-esteem you have left.

Reminds me of the good old days. Why don't we get really good trolls like Franko, Muscleman, and even Wraith anymore. At least they could keep it up for months on end. :nope:

Hans

[28th Kingdom]

What are these "squibs" made of? Smoke or dust?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La0LOG2NBM4

[slingblade]

What are these "squibs" made of? Smoke or dust?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La0LOG2NBM4

Yes.

[Oliver]

What are these "squibs" made of? Smoke or dust?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La0LOG2NBM4

Thermate.

(On sundays it´s thermite)

[Firestone]

What are these "squibs" made of? Smoke or dust?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La0LOG2NBM4:rolleyes:

You know, you debunk yourself by constantly hopping from one item to the other, without ever answering any question. :)

When will you apologize for claiming that we made your stupid post about freefall up? When will you do the honorable thing?

[The Doc]

The 9/11 Truth Strategy:

When Loosing an argument:
1. Accuse the other person of personal attacks
2. Claim they haven't debated your facts
3. Change the Subject
4. Repeat

[Horatius]

So... if we all agree that the lower structure (below impact floors) could have held the weight of the upper mass in a hypothetical situation where the impact floors were removed, and the upper mass was slowly lowered onto the lower floors/structure... than what we are saying is that the force from this weight (of the upper mass) falling 50-70 feet is what caused all of the lower floors to fail.

Now NIST...claims this force increased as the collapse progressed because the upper mass was increasing in size (presumably from the floors stacking in some capacity) so, my question is... when the upper floors fell down, and first made impact with the lower structure (below the impact floors) did those floors create any resistance... or do the laws of science not apply here? If they did absorb some of the energy released by the falling upper mass... than did the floors below this point, create any resistance to the upper mass that was hurling downward? And, if so... did they absorb any of the energy? Repeat scenario for remaining floors...

The point I am trying to make... is why doesn't the resistance from each floor... slow the movement of the upper mass... and if you say the mass was growing in size due to pancaking... than what happened to the core columns, since we have all seen that a pancaking of floors wouldn't have taken out the core columns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weqBynRZGG8

Bonus Video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Awq6q5ZZUO4

Thanks.

Doesn't NIST say... the collapse increased in speed as it progressed downwards? Meaning the resistance from the lower floors didn't slow the momentum of the upper mass, but actually increased it.

I talk about probabilities and that makes me a loon... but yet, all of you get to explain your theories with an inexplicable element like chaos. It's the whole... hey man - 4455 happens... anything is possible... it's all left up to chance.

You call this science?

Back to freefall:

"Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos."

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

So... you all disagree with NIST that the buildings fell at near free fall speeds?

Another simple question... so if the material from the collapsing floors was stacking - wherein increasing the size of the upper mass... what was this material made out of? We know that the large steel outer columns were being blown to bits... and lots of concrete was being smashed into dust... so what indestructible material was the floors made out of?

Let's do a simple math problem... if the section above (upper mass of floors) came down at essentially freefall speeds, and the lower structure/floors were directly below this upper mass... how could the lower structure come down any slower than essential freefall...

What are you saying... I mean just spit the 4473837 3838 out. NIST says the upper mass fell essentially at freefall speeds... are you saying the structure below the falling upper mass fell slower than the upper mass?

No it's not... did you skip 6th grade science class?

The terminal velocity of an object falling towards the earth, in non-vacuum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum), is the speed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed) at which the gravitational (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity) force pulling it downwards is equal and opposite to the atmospheric drag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_drag) (also called air resistance) pushing it upwards. At this speed, the object ceases to accelerate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration) downwards and falls at constant speed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity

NIST says:

"Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos ..."

So while you claim... NIST is saying the upper mass feel through the impact floors at free fall... NIST is referring to the floors below i.e. lower structure - the level of collapse initiation i.e. impact floors - providing little resistance...wherein allowing the upper mass to fall at essential free fall.

For example, the terminal velocity of a skydiver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skydiving) in a normal free-fall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-fall) position with a closed parachute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachute) is about 195 km/h (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Km/h) (120 mph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_hour) or 54 m/s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M/s)).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity

Now you try HERE (http://www.zombo.com).

I have dominated all of you on many different topics and in many different threads... and now it's starting to get really stale and boring.. There's just no challenge to it anymore... the only defense you people have are insults and chaotic theories which defy the laws of probability and the physical world....

I really have pity for you all... and have exercised some mercy at times - but when it comes down to me clearly proving NIST wrong... all of you are reduced to nothing more than babbling children... spouting off insults.

Remember, the major difference between truthers and deniers... is that truthers want to unite (with deniers) ... truthers want to be on the same team... truthers don't want conflict... deniers only want conflict... deniers will do anything to remain divided from truthers... And, therein lies the problem...

"All free-falling objects (on Earth) accelerate downwards at a rate of approximately 10 m/s/s (to be exact, 9.8 m/s/s"

Yea they do continue to accelerate...until they reach terminal velocity at which point they cease to accelerate... Anti-sophist you are 744 484829 484 85 4 84928.

All of these calculations coming from the same wizards who brought us this superhuman display of mathematical excellence:

If someone paid 200 million for a building and then received 3 billion on an insurance claim due to the buildings' collapse... but then turned around and built a 5 billion building to replace the first building... well, damn - this poor guy just lost 2 billion dollars...

I'm not kidding, folks... how could I possibly make this 4837 up?

What are these "squibs" made of? Smoke or dust?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La0LOG2NBM4



Out of all the crap he's posted over night, is any of it not partially wrong, totally wrong, misinterpreted, or just made up out of whole cloth?

How can someone post so much, so frequently, and not get anything actually, completely correct? And yet, he still thinks he's smarter and better educated than all of us combined.

Boggles the mind. My mind is Boggled, I tell you!

[bonavada]

What are these "squibs" made of? Smoke or dust?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La0LOG2NBM4

hey 28th..

what exactly is your version of 9/11 in new york?
you've argued incessantly the minute details of what happened to the towers but i don't see your overall picture. have you explained this elsewhere? if so please can you give me a link?
thanks IA

BV

[MortFurd]

What are these "squibs" made of? Smoke or dust?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La0LOG2NBM4
Actually, those aren't squibs. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squib_(explosive)) What you are seeing is puffs of dust and smoke being forced out of windows.

If you would like to see what a real demolition looks like, try here. (http://www.controlled-demolition.com/) Or do a Google search for "Landmark tower demolition." There are some really good videos of that one floating around - with sound. Listen to those charges going off!

Question: How come no one heard demolition charges during the collapse of the WTC?

Answer: Because no demolition charges were used.

Question: Why couldn't thermite used instead of demolitions charges?

Answer: Because thermite cuts in the direction of gravity - downwards - and couldn't cut the columns as would be needed.

[bonavada]

If you would like to see what a real demolition looks like, try here. (http://www.controlled-demolition.com/) Or do a Google search for "Landmark tower demolition." There are some really good videos of that one floating around - with sound. Listen to those charges going off!


another loud example below. and this in a building only about the 10th the size of one of the twin towers.
makes you think huh 28th? or perhaps not.


CTiWDsG1pUw

BV

[JimBenArm]

28BrainCells has proven without a doubt he is incapable of learning, admitting when he's wrong, owning up to deliberate lies, and understanding simple engineering concepts. I don't think it's arrogance, or willful ignorance. I think it's a game with him, just to rile us all up. So, I am no longer going to respond to his outrageous nonsense any more. Not going to put him on ignore, just because he's gold for quote material, but not going to respond to him, either.

[Firestone]

Out of all the crap he's posted over night, is any of it not partially wrong, totally wrong, misinterpreted, or just made up out of whole cloth?

How can someone post so much, so frequently, and not get anything actually, completely correct? And yet, he still thinks he's smarter and better educated than all of us combined.I read the posts you quoted a number of times, trying hard to find something that was correct.
Just for the pleasure of proving you wrong. ;)

It was a waste of time. :(

[CHF]

when the upper floors fell down, and first made impact with the lower structure (below the impact floors) did those floors create any resistance... or do the laws of science not apply here?

See, this is what you're not getting.

When 140,000 tons come crashing down, the rest of the structure will NOT stop it. It will slow it down (hense the non free-fall speed) but it won't make a hell of a lot of difference.

[Architect]

See, this is what you're not getting.

When 140,000 tons come crashing down, the rest of the structure will NOT slow it down.


Actually it will, however the question is how much; fractions of a second, not seconds.

[Horatius]

I read the posts you quoted a number of times, trying hard to find something that was correct.
Just for the pleasure of proving you wrong. ;)

It was a waste of time. :(

I think the closest to "correct" was his cut-n-paste definition of terminal velocity, but of course he completely misunderstands how that applies to the collapse of the towers - that being, really not much at all.

[CHF]

I have dominated all of you on many different topics and in many different threads... and now it's starting to get really stale and boring.. There's just no challenge to it anymore... the only defense you people have are insults and chaotic theories which defy the laws of probability and the physical world....

I really have pity for you all... and have exercised some mercy at times - but when it comes down to me clearly proving NIST wrong... all of you are reduced to nothing more than babbling children... spouting off insults.

Remember, the major difference between truthers and deniers... is that truthers want to unite (with deniers) ... truthers want to be on the same team... truthers don't want conflict... deniers only want conflict... deniers will do anything to remain divided from truthers... And, therein lies the problem...

Are you saying that the Twoof movement is UNITED? Or is trying to be?

Tell me you're not.

Thermite, C4, cargo planes, no planes, mini nukes, laser beams....you clowns couldn't be more divided if you tried.

[CHF]

Actually it will, however the question is how much; fractions of a second, not seconds.

You're right. Haven't had my morning coffee yet :)

[JimBenArm]

Are you saying that the Twoof movement is UNITED? Or is trying to be?

Tell me you're not.

Thermite, C4, cargo planes, no planes, mini nukes, laser beams....you clowns couldn't be more divided if you tried.

No, no, it's actually a typo. He meant untie, not unite. As in their straightjackets.

[CHF]

Answer: Because thermite cuts in the direction of gravity - downwards - and couldn't cut the columns as would be needed.

And even if thermite could cut vertical beams....how could it be made to do so on hundreds of different beams at the same time?

[MortFurd]

And even if thermite could cut vertical beams....how could it be made to do so on hundreds of different beams at the same time?
By placing thermite charges on ALL of the hundreds of beams, of course.

Which you can do. If you are a CTer and ignore reality.

[The Almond]

I have dominated all of you on many different topics and in many different threads... and now it's starting to get really stale and boring.. There's just no challenge to it anymore... the only defense you people have are insults and chaotic theories which defy the laws of probability and the physical world....

Perhaps if you didn't have half of the board on ignore, you'd realize how silly you look in these debates. People make rational, intelligent responses to your questions, and you ignore them an jump to the next topic.

I really have pity for you all... and have exercised some mercy at times -

My God, your ego is astounding.

but when it comes down to me clearly proving NIST wrong...

How do you know that you've proved anything?

all of you are reduced to nothing more than babbling children... spouting off insults.

I would suggest reading your membership agreement. This statement is in violation of it.

Remember, the major difference between truthers and deniers... is that truthers want to unite (with deniers)

This statement is hilarious. In the last 6 months Scholars for Truth has split over disagreements about various conspiracy theories, and the Loose Change forum has closed and then reopened with draconian membership policies meant to silence all opposition. Truthers want only to divide and cause trouble.

... truthers want to be on the same team... truthers don't want conflict...

Which is why they all got together on 9/11 and shouted lies and hate speech.

deniers only want conflict... deniers will do anything to remain divided from truthers... And, therein lies the problem...
So we should unite with truthers because...

[Fnord]

People, I see one of two courses of action:

1) Ignore 28K and wait for him to go away.
2) Agree with everything he says ... and wait for him to go away.

Arguing with some people only feeds their egos. They become validated solely by the amount of attention they receive, and not by the truth of their words (obviously).

Twoofers are not twoofing to solve or expose a problem. They do what they do to feel important -- that somehow they have a handle on the situation and can solve the problem if only enough people will listen to them.

The trouble is, their lack of evidence turns away the very people that could support their theories.

Too bad. If they would all the effort the use to feed their egos into some real research, they might actually change things for the better.

What a waste.


-Fnord of Dyscordia-

[JimBenArm]

People, I see one of two courses of action:

1) Ignore 28K and wait for him to go away.
2) Agree with everything he says ... and wait for him to go away.

Arguing with some people only feeds their egos. They become validated solely by the amount of attention they receive, and not by the truth of their words (obviously).

Twoofers are not twoofing to solve or expose a problem. They do what they do to feel important -- that somehow they have a handle on the situation and can solve the problem if only enough people will listen to them.

The trouble is, their lack of evidence turns away the very people that could support their theories.

Too bad. If they would all the effort the use to feed their egos into some real research, they might actually change things for the better.

What a waste.


-Fnord of Dyscordia-

We can't agree with him, for fear of validating his craziness with "fence-sitters" that come by. So, ignoring him is probably the best course of action. However, I can't seem to place him on ignore, because he truly comes up with some of the most comical ideas I've ever seen, and it's too tempting to ridicule him.

So, I don't know what to do.

[Architect]

Call his bluff. Tell him you'll only debate 1 point at a time and that he has to provide substantive, detailed responses. Make it quite clear to any neutral readers that if it's derailed, it's his fault.

[JimBenArm]

Call his bluff. Tell him you'll only debate 1 point at a time and that he has to provide substantive, detailed responses. Make it quite clear to any neutral readers that if it's derailed, it's his fault.
Trying to get him to stay on topic is like trying to nail jello to a barn door.

[Architect]

Yeah, jelly is easier.

[chipmunk stew]

28th,

This is a hypothetical illustration of a 1.0 kg falling object encountering some resistance and picking up some mass as it falls, to illustrate the relationships among mass, distance, velocity, acceleration, force, energy, and resistance.


|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| time | mass | height | velocity | acceleration | net force | resistance | kinetic energy |
| (s) | (kg) | (m) | (m/s) | (m/s/s) | (N)=(mass * acceleration) | (N)=(mass * g - net force) | (Joules)=(1/2 * mass * velocity^2) |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 0 | 1.00 | 1000.0 | 0.0 | 9.8 | 9.8 | 0.0 | 0 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 1 | 1.00 | 995.1 | 9.8 | 9.7 | 9.7 | 0.1 | 48 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 2 | 1.01 | 980.6 | 19.4 | 9.6 | 9.7 | 0.2 | 190 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 3 | 1.02 | 956.4 | 29.0 | 9.5 | 9.7 | 0.3 | 426 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 4 | 1.03 | 922.7 | 38.4 | 9.4 | 9.7 | 0.4 | 760 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 5 | 1.05 | 879.6 | 47.8 | 9.3 | 9.8 | 0.5 | 1196 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 6 | 1.07 | 827.3 | 57.0 | 9.2 | 9.9 | 0.6 | 1740 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 7 | 1.10 | 765.7 | 66.2 | 9.1 | 10.0 | 0.8 | 2401 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 8 | 1.13 | 695.0 | 75.2 | 9.0 | 10.2 | 0.9 | 3191 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 9 | 1.16 | 615.3 | 84.1 | 8.9 | 10.4 | 1.0 | 4123 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 10 | 1.21 | 526.8 | 93.0 | 8.8 | 10.6 | 1.2 | 5214 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 11 | 1.25 | 429.4 | 101.8 | 8.7 | 10.9 | 1.4 | 6484 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 12 | 1.31 | 323.3 | 110.4 | 8.6 | 11.2 | 1.6 | 7957 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 13 | 1.37 | 208.6 | 119.0 | 8.5 | 11.6 | 1.8 | 9661 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 14 | 1.43 | 85.5 | 127.4 | 8.4 | 12.0 | 2.0 | 11628 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 15 | 1.51 | -46.1 | 135.8 | 8.3 | 12.5 | 2.3 | 13897 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|


http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/mass.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/height.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/velocity.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/acceleration.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/netforce.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/resistance.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/kineticenergy.jpg

No child left behind.

[uk_dave]

28th,

This is a hypothetical illustration of a 1.0 kg falling object encountering some resistance and picking up some mass as it falls, to illustrate the relationships among mass, distance, velocity, acceleration, force, energy, and resistance.


|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| time | mass | height | velocity | acceleration | net force | resistance | kinetic energy |
| (s) | (kg) | (m) | (m/s) | (m/s/s) | (N)=(mass * acceleration) | (N)=(mass * g - net force) | (Joules)=(1/2 * mass * velocity^2) |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 0 | 1.00 | 1000.0 | 0.0 | 9.8 | 9.8 | 0.0 | 0 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 1 | 1.00 | 995.1 | 9.8 | 9.7 | 9.7 | 0.1 | 48 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 2 | 1.01 | 980.6 | 19.4 | 9.6 | 9.7 | 0.2 | 190 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 3 | 1.02 | 956.4 | 29.0 | 9.5 | 9.7 | 0.3 | 426 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 4 | 1.03 | 922.7 | 38.4 | 9.4 | 9.7 | 0.4 | 760 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 5 | 1.05 | 879.6 | 47.8 | 9.3 | 9.8 | 0.5 | 1196 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 6 | 1.07 | 827.3 | 57.0 | 9.2 | 9.9 | 0.6 | 1740 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 7 | 1.10 | 765.7 | 66.2 | 9.1 | 10.0 | 0.8 | 2401 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 8 | 1.13 | 695.0 | 75.2 | 9.0 | 10.2 | 0.9 | 3191 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 9 | 1.16 | 615.3 | 84.1 | 8.9 | 10.4 | 1.0 | 4123 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 10 | 1.21 | 526.8 | 93.0 | 8.8 | 10.6 | 1.2 | 5214 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 11 | 1.25 | 429.4 | 101.8 | 8.7 | 10.9 | 1.4 | 6484 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 12 | 1.31 | 323.3 | 110.4 | 8.6 | 11.2 | 1.6 | 7957 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 13 | 1.37 | 208.6 | 119.0 | 8.5 | 11.6 | 1.8 | 9661 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 14 | 1.43 | 85.5 | 127.4 | 8.4 | 12.0 | 2.0 | 11628 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
| 15 | 1.51 | -46.1 | 135.8 | 8.3 | 12.5 | 2.3 | 13897 |
|------|------|--------|----------|--------------|---------------------------|----------------------------|------------------------------------|
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/mass.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/height.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/velocity.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/acceleration.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/netforce.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/resistance.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g73/chipmunk_stew/kineticenergy.jpg

No child left behind.

Now animate it and provide a voiceover! :D

[Skibum]

Chipmunk, do you cash a government paycheck? I'm not accusing you of anything, I was just wondering. :D

[Horatius]

Now animate it and provide a voiceover! :D


Just, please, for god's sake, don't use that annoying guy from the twoofer videos! I want to punch the screen every time I hear him. Same goes for the woman they sometimes use.....Argh!

[chipmunk stew]

Chipmunk, do you cash a government paycheck? I'm not accusing you of anything, I was just wondering. :D
No, but my company recently won a pretty big contract to ship product to Iraq.












Of course, our product will be delivered to hospitals and provide life support to babies, so accuse me of being a war profiteer at your peril.

[JonnyFive]

No, but my company recently won a pretty big contract to ship product to Iraq.

So what you're saying is that you were in on 9/11, right?

Of course, our product will be delivered to hospitals and provide life support to babies, so accuse me of being a war profiteer at your peril.

Suuuuure they will be. ;) And by "life support" you mean "blood for oil".

[chipmunk stew]

So what you're saying is that you were in on 9/11, right?



Suuuuure they will be. ;) And by "life support" you mean "blood for oil".
Well we have to keep our main asset happy, don't we?
... my NWO-issue Hummer ... only gets 11 miles to the fetus.

[JonnyFive]

Well we have to keep our main asset happy, don't we?

Suddenly it's all clear, now I'm going to te.... HURKKK... [CIA sniper bullet enters head]

[Belz...]

This is simply unbelievable... look at the black propaganda, being used against me... notice the numbers being used in these different posts... you people can't even get your facts straight... that's a dead give away. I had to go back and edit my original post, just to clarify that I didn't say this...

Despicable.

what we need to know (more than what caused the initiation) is how these marvels of structural engineering and design, managed to crumble to the ground in less than 15 seconds.

Yeah, because no man-made structure EVER fails completely under no circumstances.

So... if we all agree that the lower structure (below impact floors) could have held the weight of the upper mass in a hypothetical situation where the impact floors were removed, and the upper mass was slowly lowered onto the lower floors/structure... than what we are saying is that the force from this weight (of the upper mass) falling 50-70 feet is what caused all of the lower floors to fail.

So far so good, but I suspect some horrible misunderstanding of reality will follow.

Now NIST...claims this force increased as the collapse progressed because the upper mass was increasing in size (presumably from the floors stacking in some capacity) so, my question is... when the upper floors fell down, and first made impact with the lower structure (below the impact floors) did those floors create any resistance... or do the laws of science not apply here?

Yep. That's what I thought.

The point I am trying to make... is why doesn't the resistance from each floor... slow the movement of the upper mass...

It did.

Doesn't NIST say... the collapse increased in speed as it progressed downwards? Meaning the resistance from the lower floors didn't slow the momentum of the upper mass, but actually increased it.

Unholy mother of hell! I can't believe you wrote that piece of nonsense. Even Iacchus, Iamme and Lightcreatedlife@hom couldn't come up with such idiocy.

Don't you know about gravity ?

I talk about probabilities and that makes me a loon...

No, it makes you a gambler.

Another simple question... so if the material from the collapsing floors was stacking - wherein increasing the size of the upper mass... what was this material made out of? We know that the large steel outer columns were being blown to bits... and lots of concrete was being smashed into dust... so what indestructible material was the floors made out of?

Well that brings up an interesting question: what weighs more 1) 1 ton of bricks, 2) 1 ton of pulverised bricks ?

[Belz...]

I have dominated all of you on many different topics and in many different threads...

Sure. Rewrite the laws of physics and you're sure to know them better than anyone else.

Meanwhile, in reality...

and now it's starting to get really stale and boring.. There's just no challenge to it anymore...

So true.

the only defense you people have are insults and chaotic theories which defy the laws of probability and the physical world....

Probabilities. Much more fun than actual reality, eh ?

I'm not kidding, folks... how could I possibly make this 4837 up?

Twisted imagination.

No insurance company will pay more than the amount of the loss, as someone's said already.

[JonnyFive]

No insurance company will pay more than the amount of the loss, as someone's said already.

Yes, we in the insurance business don't like to lose money very much. It's a very bad business model.

Of course, you can always lie about the value of something, but that is a crime, and we will do our damndest to run you into the ground for it.

On a claim the size of the towers, you better freaking believe that Zurich and the others had their best men and women on it.

Of course, if you assume that everyone is part of a monolithic conspiracy, anything is possible.

[rwguinn]

Blez catches up--finally....Despicable.


<<<<<SNIP>>>.



Well that brings up an interesting question: what weighs more 1) 1 ton of bricks, 2) 1 ton of pulverised bricks ?

Ah--but that is the problem.
How many clowns out there realize that a pound of bricks placed on the head is no problem, but a pound of bricks dropping on your head from as little as 10 feet can be fatal?

[JonnyFive]

How many clowns out there realize that a pound of bricks placed on the head is no problem, but a pound of bricks dropping on your head from as little as 10 feet can be fatal?

Ah wush i nowed tat bfro i didd ma ekperemint wot brrrrrrrrrrrrrikks. :drool:

[Architect]

Hey! Where'd Ma Bricks Go?!

[tsig]

I have dominated all of you on many different topics and in many different threads... and now it's starting to get really stale and boring.. There's just no challenge to it anymore... the only defense you people have are insults and chaotic theories which defy the laws of probability and the physical world....

I really have pity for you all... and have exercised some mercy at times - but when it comes down to me clearly proving NIST wrong... all of you are reduced to nothing more than babbling children... spouting off insults.

Remember, the major difference between truthers and deniers... is that truthers want to unite (with deniers) ... truthers want to be on the same team... truthers don't want conflict... deniers only want conflict... deniers will do anything to remain divided from truthers... And, therein lies the problem...

You have denied math and fact wherin is your reality?

You have the babble.

[JonnyFive]

Hey! Where'd Ma Bricks Go?!

:drool: :drool: :drool:

[JimBenArm]

Hey! Where'd Ma Bricks Go?!

Well, JonnyFive wanted to see if we dropped a brick from 10 feet, what would happen, so we went out back to the shed, and...

[JonnyFive]

Well, JonnyFive wanted to see if we dropped a brick from 10 feet, what would happen, so we went out back to the shed, and...

I brained my damage, but now I know all about the WTC concrete/C4 core, how Bush did everything relating to 9/11, and how Osama Bin Laden is just a fun guy who loves puppies, kittens, and large quantities of uncut cocaine.

[rwguinn]

Hey! Where'd Ma Bricks Go?!

Isn't that what construction sites are for?
How else we gonna get stuff to 'spermint with and asplode thangs?

[juryjone]

I've got to say, I'm fascinated by 28's thoughts (or lack thereof) of how the upper mass was supposed to have fallen outside of the lower mass.

Now, I can't animate, but I wanted to help 28 with a graphical representation of what the official line is versus what he seems to be thinking.

First of all, all of these examples are showing what would happen after the fulcrum (outer columns) fail. Someone earlier stated that that would occur with as little as a 3% bend. The fulcrum breaks, and the upper mass smashes straight downward, with all the resultant damage:

http://home.comcast.net/~jerry.jobe/WTC1.jpg


But 28 believes the tilt of the upper mass would continue rotating, forcing the upper mass clear of the lower mass. How would this happen? Perhaps it would slide off:

http://home.comcast.net/~jerry.jobe/WTC2.jpg


That not crazy enough for you? Perhaps it would flip off:

http://home.comcast.net/~jerry.jobe/WTC3.jpg

What everyone is trying to tell you, 28, is that there are no forces which would force the upper mass to go totally outside the lower mass. The entire force of the moving upper mass is brought to bear on the next floor below the damaged impact zone. That would fail, and so would all the other floors, hence a global collapse.

Here you go: pictures. Does that help in some small way?

[TjW]

Yes, we in the insurance business don't like to lose money very much. It's a very bad business model.

Of course, you can always lie about the value of something, but that is a crime, and we will do our damndest to run you into the ground for it.

On a claim the size of the towers, you better freaking believe that Zurich and the others had their best men and women on it.

Of course, if you assume that everyone is part of a monolithic conspiracy, anything is possible.

Of course, if the insurance company is in on the deal, why not just have them hand you the three billion, and not go to all the trouble and expense of blowing up your own buildings, while losing all recurring revenue?

I spose I'm not devious enough.

[Bell]

I've got to say, I'm fascinated by 28's thoughts (or lack thereof) of how the upper mass was supposed to have fallen outside of the lower mass.

Now, I can't animate, but I wanted to help 28 with a graphical representation of what the official line is versus what he seems to be thinking.

First of all, all of these examples are showing what would happen after the fulcrum (outer columns) fail. Someone earlier stated that that would occur with as little as a 3% bend. The fulcrum breaks, and the upper mass smashes straight downward, with all the resultant damage:

http://home.comcast.net/~jerry.jobe/WTC1.jpg


But 28 believes the tilt of the upper mass would continue rotating, forcing the upper mass clear of the lower mass. How would this happen? Perhaps it would slide off:

http://home.comcast.net/~jerry.jobe/WTC2.jpg


That not crazy enough for you? Perhaps it would flip off:

http://home.comcast.net/~jerry.jobe/WTC3.jpg

What everyone is trying to tell you, 28, is that there are no forces which would force the upper mass to go totally outside the lower mass. The entire force of the moving upper mass is brought to bear on the next floor below the damaged impact zone. That would fail, and so would all the other floors, hence a global collapse.

Here you go: pictures. Does that help in some small way?

Nominated.

[uk_dave]

I've got to say, I'm fascinated by 28's thoughts (or lack thereof) of how the upper mass was supposed to have fallen outside of the lower mass.

Now, I can't animate, but I wanted to help 28 with a graphical representation of what the official line is versus what he seems to be thinking.

First of all, all of these examples are showing what would happen after the fulcrum (outer columns) fail. Someone earlier stated that that would occur with as little as a 3% bend. The fulcrum breaks, and the upper mass smashes straight downward, with all the resultant damage:

http://home.comcast.net/~jerry.jobe/WTC1.jpg (http://home.comcast.net/%7Ejerry.jobe/WTC1.jpg)


But 28 believes the tilt of the upper mass would continue rotating, forcing the upper mass clear of the lower mass. How would this happen? Perhaps it would slide off:

http://home.comcast.net/~jerry.jobe/WTC2.jpg (http://home.comcast.net/%7Ejerry.jobe/WTC2.jpg)


That not crazy enough for you? Perhaps it would flip off:

http://home.comcast.net/~jerry.jobe/WTC3.jpg (http://home.comcast.net/%7Ejerry.jobe/WTC3.jpg)

What everyone is trying to tell you, 28, is that there are no forces which would force the upper mass to go totally outside the lower mass. The entire force of the moving upper mass is brought to bear on the next floor below the damaged impact zone. That would fail, and so would all the other floors, hence a global collapse.

Here you go: pictures. Does that help in some small way?

Now do an episode of southpark :D

(Oh and brilliant post. No doubt 28th Kingdom will Lie and say that he didn't see it. Did I mention that 28th Kingdom is a LIAR?)

[Skibum]

Here you go: pictures. Does that help in some small way?


Excellent post.

An experiment one might perform to demonstrate the point would be to try and tip a refrigerator over. You've got to tilt it pretty far in order for it to tip over. If you don't tip it far enough and let it go its just going to fall back into the upright position.

[juryjone]

Nominated.

Thank you very much, but the pictures are what tell the story here, not the language.

Something tells me that even a TLA winner would not be able to convince 28. (Right, uk_dave?)

[Horatius]

Excellent post.

An experiment one might perform to demonstrate the point would be to try and tip a refrigerator over. You've got to tilt it pretty far in order for it to tip over. If you don't tip it far enough and let it go its just going to fall back into the upright position.

And tipping a refrigerator - which is still mostly empty space - still takes a lot of effort. Which again emphasizes - where would that force come from? What could lift one side of the building up enough to "tip over"?

Nothing!




Okay, maybe Superman, but that's it!


And Super Dog.


And Mighty Mouse. But I'm sure that's it.


Except for Hercules.

[defaultdotxbe]

ive proven a conspiracy!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/defaultdotxbe/WTC3.jpg

ITS SO OBVIOUS!