Common Sense

[juryjone]

I quit.

Aw, and just as he was proving how DGI (domain-general incompetent) he was.

Physics, psychology... he was truly a Denaissance Man!



(Thanks to Anti-Sophist and Horatius for the truly desciptive terms!)

[aggle-rithm]

You must have a very comfortable couch, then. :)

Are you kidding?! SHE'S the one who....

...

Yeah, it's pretty comfy.

[juryjone]

It makes logical sense, in a troofer kind of way.

Are you saying you understand troofer logic?

*Stands back, points at aggle-rithm and screeches in a Donald Sutherland, "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" kind of way*

[Horatius]

I think the problem is that people who present solid, compelling arguments often come across as being arrogant. And, of course, sometimes they are. Justifiably so, perhaps.

28CranialHoles and his ilk probably think that if they duplicate the arrogance, they duplicate the solid, compelling arguments.

It makes logical sense, in a troofer kind of way.

It's just another example of magical thinking. Like the homeopathy concept of "like cures like", it's sympathetic magic - if you take on the superficial attributes, you will magically acquire the substantive attributes.

I think this arises because of the fundamental complexity of modern science being so hard for some of these guys to understand. They think a TV "just works" due to some high-tech "wizardry", and figure it's all just mumbo-jumbo. And hey, one guy's mumbo-jumbo is a good as the next, right?

[eeyore1954]

P.S. People in the truth movement can't even get any mainstream media to show the video of WTC 7 collapsing (minus one time) ... but you think they would have a firefighter on who claims he was told bombs were in WTC 7 building? The media wouldn't... for one - because they only have these "CTist" on, to teach the public how they should be viewed (character assassination) i.e. crazies on the fringe of society - you really think they would want to paint one of the 9/11 heros like that? No, they wouldn't... thus they would never have one on that claimed the official story is a lie.

But why would they have been told about the bombs if the building was being demolished as part of a devious plan do you think they would have told the fire department about it and had an evacuation. They already killed thousands in the 2 twin towers why bother evacuating.


you think on 9/11 - with the knowledge of terrorists attacks... that these rescue workers.. when told there were bombs in the building... should have been like - damn INSIDE JOB!

These workers probably never even thought twice about those events... they were told to evacuate the area... and they simply did their jobs - like heros... not terrorists.

They didn't think twice about the order when they were given it but wouldn't they have thought twice about it later if it was related to WTC 7 coming down.

[The_Fire]

I quit.

YESS!!!!!!Finally! A reasonable post from 28thdouce.
Thank you, Morrigan, Danu, Bile and every other deity and semideity on my altar.
Miracles do happen!

[Myriad]

I quit.

Verrrrry interrrrrresting.

The timing of 28ths departure (however temporary it might prove to be) could be conincidence, but perhaps the truthers' pathologically low regard for humanity is something skpetics should be focusing on more and hitting harder in debates. The claim that thousands of firefighters are complicit in the murder of hundreds of their brethren, by remaining silent due to payoffs, threats, etc., is implicit in just about every 9/11 conspiracy theory out there. And it's one of the biggest reasons why so many rational people find those theories so objectionable.

Yet it rarely becomes the focus of debate, despite being mentioned frequently in passing. I can see why skeptics would be more comfortable grounding their arguments in the infallible laws of physics than in the courage of men and women who not infallibly, but so very often, do the right thing at great personal cost. Yet the latter might be the stronger argument.

Given that 28th has had his arguments contradicted many times before, and been called stupid and a liar many times before, without apparent effect, and given that afaik I'm not on his ignore list, I'm wondering if this:

Oh you poor poor guy. What kind of people have you been stuck living with all your life, to think things like that?

Find a new bar to go to, one where the people who you buy rounds for don't insult you behind your back and then find ways of letting you know they did it. Find a new job, where your co-workers don't blackmail you into doing their scutwork and then piss in your lunch pail. Tell that family of yours who would leave you the moment you had to switch to a lower-paying job that slavery's been abolished and they can look for another meal ticket. Get the hell out of whatever benighted hellhole you're in, pronto, and find some better people. They're out there.

...might actually have struck its intended target. (Though I don't suppose I'll ever know.)

Respectfully,
Myriad

[eeyore1954]

It's almost impossible for 28th to quit. I don't know the rules for the 1,000,000 challenge but I am recieving psychic signals telling me 28th will be back. There is background interference in the message I can't make out if he/she will be back as 28th or maybe a reincarnation. Look for a screen name 29th something

[Horatius]

Given that 28th has had his arguments contradicted many times before, and been called stupid and a liar many times before, without apparent effect, and given that afaik I'm not on his ignore list, I'm wondering if this:


Oh you poor poor guy. What kind of people have you been stuck living with all your life, to think things like that?

Find a new bar to go to, one where the people who you buy rounds for don't insult you behind your back and then find ways of letting you know they did it. Find a new job, where your co-workers don't blackmail you into doing their scutwork and then piss in your lunch pail. Tell that family of yours who would leave you the moment you had to switch to a lower-paying job that slavery's been abolished and they can look for another meal ticket. Get the hell out of whatever benighted hellhole you're in, pronto, and find some better people. They're out there.

Respectfully,
Myriad

...might actually have struck its intended target. (Though I don't suppose I'll ever know.)

Respectfully,
Myriad

It very well may have. I've noticed a tendency among CTists, in that they seem to think that those of us who don't see the world as an evil place are hopelessly naive. They seem to see this world as one where every man is against every other man, and no one ever cooperates, except to the extent that they can be bribed or coerced into cooperating. They think that anyone would do or say anything, in order to secure a little more power or money, regardless of how much or how little of either they already have.

I'm sure some of them come to this mindset through honest mental illness, but there seems to be too many of them for that to be true of all. So I wonder how the others got to this state. It may very well be as you suggest, that through bad fortune or bad choices, they've found themselves in a little clique where everyone actually is like that.

And once they're convinced that the world is as they perceive it, it becomes self fulfilling - their constant quest to find out how some new person is trying to screw them makes them act in way that drives that new person away, or makes them into an enemy, even if they weren't inclined to be one at first.

When confronted by people who aren't like that, they get all confused, and lash out. Hopefully, they will eventually discover that the world is not so harsh, but that day may never come. For a lot of them, I fear it never will.

[Arus808]

The claim that thousands of firefighters are complicit in the murder of hundreds of their brethren, by remaining silent due to payoffs, threats, etc., is implicit in just about every 9/11 conspiracy theory out there. And it's one of the biggest reasons why so many rational people find those theories so objectionable.

well, all one would need to do is find out how these "payoffs" could have been paid and would realize that there is nothing (no money trail) to explain any payoffs at all


How many firefighters work in the FDNY? how many of them are volunteers?

I dont think a firefighter would settle on just a couple grand to keep his/her mouth shut....And wouldn't you think that these firefighters who did get "paid off" would be showing some kind of behavior that would demonstrate that they came into some "money" and people around them would have questioned how a firefighter can suddenly afford their new house up north or that new car?

Seems that the truthers just focus on "one" day in this whole "conspiracy" yet do not look past 9/11/2001 to see if their theories are plausible (ie the behaviors of those who supposedly were involved)

[aggle-rithm]

It very well may have. I've noticed a tendency among CTists, in that they seem to think that those of us who don't see the world as an evil place are hopelessly naive. They seem to see this world as one where every man is against every other man, and no one ever cooperates, except to the extent that they can be bribed or coerced into cooperating. They think that anyone would do or say anything, in order to secure a little more power or money, regardless of how much or how little of either they already have.


They get this mindset from television, I think. TV shows are rife with conflict, because a lack of conflict is boring. Kind of like real life would seem, if we had no appreciation for the rich subtleties of reality.

[Horatius]

They get this mindset from television, I think. TV shows are rife with conflict, because a lack of conflict is boring. Kind of like real life would seem, if we had no appreciation for the rich subtleties of reality.

But even TV has shows with good people. And even the shows with lots of conflicts usually have some heroes. These guys seem to believe everyone is a bastard, even in their own in-groups. Just take a look at how many of them start accusing others of being disinfo agents any time there's even a mild disagreement.

[aggle-rithm]

But even TV has shows with good people. And even the shows with lots of conflicts usually have some heroes. These guys seem to believe everyone is a bastard, even in their own in-groups. Just take a look at how many of them start accusing others of being disinfo agents any time there's even a mild disagreement.

Yes, they do seem to have a shared personality disorder, at the very least.

I once read a book by a psychologist who said that, at a very low level of brain function, we put all people into just a handful of categories, such as: someone for us to nurture, someone to nurture us, someone to have sex with, someone who is going to kill us. Whenever we see someone (or more accurately, perceive someone by whatever means), whether or not it is for the first time, the first thing the brain does is put the person into one of these categories. Then, the higher brain functions begin to sort out where the person belongs in more specific categories, such as: a woman->a relative->Aunt Margorie.

The book dealt primarily with marriage relationships, and the theory explained how a loving relationship can turn extremely hostile -- it's because the primative part of the brain decides that, if the person isn't going to nurture him, than she's going to kill him. Unless he kills her first, of course. The more emotional and less rational a relationship is, the more hostility is likely to develop.

It could be that the troofer's problem lies in their higher brain function. It doesn't appear to be all that good at getting past the primative initial categorization of people as either 1) an ally, or 2) a mortal enemy. Their paranoia tends to push everyone into the second group -- no doubt, to their own misfortune.

[Regnad Kcin]

Why do you believe that Americans are unwilling to kill other innocent Americans? Why... when thousands of Americans kill thousands of other innocent Americans every year... do you think these murders are like, "Wait a second... I can't kill you... you're my fellow American."

Here's the problem... if you are a good person (which I would hope you to be) a patriot and an honorable man... than I can understand how it might be hard for you to believe that people are capable of murdering innocent people, whether foreigners or their own countrymen... for sheer profit and greed. Nonetheless, do not project this good-heartedness onto others (especially the extremely elite and powerful) for that is naive of you to think that other people can't be filled with this heartless cruelty...just because you're not. Some individuals will kill any and everyone (regardless if it's their own countrymen) if it brings them more wealth and power... and that's a well documented fact throughout history.

Politicians (democrats and republicans) are the scummiest people on the earth. I'm not saying that if you have political beliefs associated with these parties that you are scum... and, I'm not talking about conservative and liberal beliefs per se... I'm talking about the elected individuals (politicians) who manipulate the American people and their morals and values, by projecting this phony image in the media... that preys on their good-heartedness.

The most powerful men throughout history have always been the most barbaric... it has been that way since the beginning of time and it will continue to be that way... And, if that's true... than why can you believe that rulers from other countries will murder their own innocent people, but can't believe that elements within the USG are willing to kill its own people?

I think you are blinded by your patriotism...but, trust me - these men responsible for 9/11 are not your fellow countrymen...nationalism means absolutely nothing to them... they only answer to two things, and that is money and power.Did you receive a Logical Fallacy of the Day calendar for Christmas?

[Myriad]

It very well may have. I've noticed a tendency among CTists, in that they seem to think that those of us who don't see the world as an evil place are hopelessly naive. They seem to see this world as one where every man is against every other man, and no one ever cooperates, except to the extent that they can be bribed or coerced into cooperating. They think that anyone would do or say anything, in order to secure a little more power or money, regardless of how much or how little of either they already have.

I'm sure some of them come to this mindset through honest mental illness, but there seems to be too many of them for that to be true of all. So I wonder how the others got to this state. It may very well be as you suggest, that through bad fortune or bad choices, they've found themselves in a little clique where everyone actually is like that.

And once they're convinced that the world is as they perceive it, it becomes self fulfilling - their constant quest to find out how some new person is trying to screw them makes them act in way that drives that new person away, or makes them into an enemy, even if they weren't inclined to be one at first.

When confronted by people who aren't like that, they get all confused, and lash out. Hopefully, they will eventually discover that the world is not so harsh, but that day may never come. For a lot of them, I fear it never will

If this is the case, then it puts the matter into a different perspective for me, at least as far as some of these individuals are concerned. People should be accountable for their words and actions, of course. But it doesn't take Dr. Phil (let alone a real psychologist) to conjecture that someone who believes that every physician would withhold a universal cure to save his or her job, might have been treated very badly by other people during his life.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Horatius]

But it doesn't take Dr. Phil (let alone a real psychologist) to conjecture that someone who believes that every physician would withhold a universal cure to save his or her job, might have been treated very badly by other people during his life.

Respectfully,
Myriad


I'm getting to the point where I think 28th is seriously ill. Maybe not Christophera level crazy, but as you point out, some who can believe that doctors would knowing allow patients to suffer and die just to save their jobs, isn't really all there. What the cause is, is unclear, as is a solution. What is clear is we can't do anything about it, he has to want to change it himself.

We can only hope that by pointing out his mistakes, we bring him to a point where he decides to really sit down and reconsider his ideas of how things work.

[babazaroni]

28K depends so much on his perception of common sense he can't take in experts opinions. At some point he seemed to be making some progress, but then would suddenly revert back to his 'buildings just don't fall that way without explosives' thoughts.

Its like trying to tell the guy who buys an amp that just because the volume knob goes to 11, does not mean it louder than the one that goes to 10. He pauses, seems to get it, then says 'but it goes to 11'.

When you hear this joke, the guy is usually the drummer, but you'll get no Ad Hominum from me. :D

[Fnord]

I'm gonna post this here, and hope that it's the right place. Use it as a check list or "Bingo Card" to determine how deep the woo-woo has become.

Pseudo-Scientists:

- Accept claims and reports that describe well-understood objects behaving in strangely as literally true, when those same reports turn out to have been deliberate frauds, honest mistakes, garbled accounts, misinterpretations, outright fabrications, and stupid blunders.
- Aim their literature at the general public, rather than at educated professionals.
- Always exposed by a reduction to absurdity of their claims.
- Appeal to distrust of established facts and authority.
- Appeal to emotion, or make claims that have emotional appeal.
- Appeal to false authority, or claim that established authority can not be trusted.
- Appeal to novelty, believing that the mere newness of the claim validates the claim itself.
- Appeal to sentimentality.
- Appeal to the human interest in "Magic" and "Miracles."
- Appeal to the scientific criteria of truth while simultaneously denying its validity.
- Are fond of imaginary conspiracies.
- Argue from alleged exceptions, errors, anomalies, strange events, and suspect claims.
- Argue from ignorance (they don't know what they don't know, and expect others to be the same way).
- Argue from irrelevancies.
- Assume inexplicable influences and connections between things from the beginning ("Spurious Similarities").
- Attempt to imitate the jargon of scientists, engineers, and technicians by usuing "technobabble" gibberish that sounds as if it may be scientific to non-scientists.
- Attempt to persuade with meaningless rhetoric, propaganda, and misrepresentation.
- Avoid putting their claims to any meaningful tests.
- Base their claims on an incomplete understanding of natural laws.
- Claims that statements by scientists are open to alternative, equally valid interpretations.
- Treat scientific literature as one might consider a novel or a painting ("Subjective Interpretation").
- Claim that the results of their experiments appear only under certain vaguely specified but vital conditions.
- Deliberately impose mysteries where none exist.
- Depend upon arbitrary conventions of human culture (customs, names, labels, traditions, et cetera) to validate their claims or to provide the basis for their claims.
- Discourage calls for review, adherance to standards, pre-publication verification, accuracy, and precision in their published studies.
- Display indifference to established facts.
- Display indifference to the validity of evidence.
- Do not progress beyond their claims.
- Emphasize unverifyable accounts, such as anecdotes, apocrypha, hearsay, legends, myths, rumors, stories, "tall tales," and testimonials to validate their claims.
- Expect belief in spite of the facts, not because of them.
- First claim a theory, then look for evidence to support it.
- Ignore all findings that contradict their conclusions.
- Ignore or rationalize away their own contradictions
- Invent their own ambiguous and imprecisely defined vocabulary, and use words that have no definition at all.
- Make claims and advance theories that contradict what is known about nature.
- Make up pseudo-facts as needed to support their claims (Straw man fallacies).
- Offer no practical advantage to believing their claims.
- Provide no evidence that their claims are true.
- Publish studies that are so vaguely described that one can't figure out what was done or how it was done.
- Publish studies that ignore simplicity in favor of complex explanations that are often convoluted and self-contradictory, as well.
- Rarely, if ever, abandon their original idea or revise their claims, in spite of evidence to the contrary.
- Rarely, if ever, carry out careful and methodical experiments themselves.
- Rarely, if ever, check their sources.
- Rarely, if ever, correctly interpret or apply genuine scientific literature.
- Rarely, if ever, discard or modify old concepts in the light of new discoveries.
- Rarely, if ever, discover or study natural processes.
- Rarely, if ever, discover something new.
- Rarely, if ever, follow up on their own experiments ("It worked once, and that's good enough!").
- Rarely, if ever, make an independent investigation.
- Rarely, if ever, propose new theories.
- Rarely, if ever, refer to genuine scientific literature.
- Rely heavily on anachronistic thinking (The older the idea, the more attractive it is, especially if the idea is transparently wrong and has long been discarded by science).
- Rely heavily on circular reasoning.
- Rely heavily on subjective validation (coincidence and false cause fallacies).
- Rely on the research of others while simultaneously down-playing its validity.
- Shift the burden of proof to the dissenting side ("You can't prove me wrong, so I must be right!").
- Take a casual approach to evidence.
- Try to convert people to their point of view, rather than convince them that their point of view is valid.
- Try to rationalize their beliefs.
- Uncover little or no new information.
- Use "Science can't explain everything" to justify their pseudo-science in the light of inconvenient facts.
- Use stories or parables to explain events, without a description of the underlying physical processes.
- Usually, if not always, expound on phenomena well-known to scientist, and little-known to the general public.
- Usually, if not always, ignore the results of genuine scientific research.

It usually takes only one of these assertions to be true to expose a claim as pseudo-science, fraud, or "woo-woo." Unfortunately for 28K, Robinson, and their ilk, once is never enough.

-Fnord of Dyscordia-

(PS: I know some of these statements are redundant repetitions of others, and that some seem to contradict others, as well. Please review and correct; or feel free to add a few observations of your own. -FoD-)

[Indolent Wretch]

28th, I thought I'd ask this once again because I haven't had a full reply before. Simple question.

What is the motive for controlled demolition of the towers?

I'm not asking why someone would fly planes into them I'm asking why CD afterwards. I think the most clear response I've had so far is that if the towers were allowed to partially collapse through the collision and fires then it would have left behind dangerous evidence. I then asked.

What dangerous evidence?

I got no reply.

Do you think you could answer either or both of these questions again for me?

Thank you for your time.

[Belz...]

When has this happened and/or been caught on tape? When has a high-rise building completely collapsed to the ground (in seconds) outside of a CD?

So there IS nothing new under the sun ?

Say this 18-wheeler plowed full speed into a 4 foot (thick) steel wall... what would happen to the 18 wheeler? It would either stop dead in its tracks...or it would ricochet off to the side (path of least resistance)

:jaw-dropp

PFFt...t...ff......PFFwhahahahahahahahah!!

You've never seen a crash test where the car impacts a wall and then ricochets off to the side? Come on...man, don't make me youtube it.

Oohh.. no, no, please. Not Youtube!!

There are workers from the Twin Towers who claim they heard and saw lots of weird activity pre 9/11. (I know... you're talking about WTC 7 and not 1 & 2 - I've really caught on to all of your little deceptive word games) Did all of the companies in these three buildings (WTC 1, 2, 7) have people there 24 hours... or was there a good chunk of time when most of the people had left for the day? Please, no speculation... I need proof.

How do you manage to contradict yourself in the SAME paragraph is beyond me.

Are you kidding? The entire buildings exploded:

No, they didn't. You have no idea what "explosion" means.

I have stated why so many people compare the collapses of WTC 1, 2, 7 to controlled demolitions...

Why is it that every time someone demolishes your argument, instead of responding to them you start a new question ?

and that is because the only other time in history where we have seen images of tall buildings falling/crumbling to the ground in seconds is during a CD.

"The only time that I've seen someone die is due to a heart attack. Therefore, this man with a bullet hole in his head MUST have died from a particularily VIOLENT form of heart attack."

And, also by claiming that... "pull" or "pulling" isn't a term used in CD. Well... fair enough... but these three demolitions weren't CD, so that's not a completely accurate application of facts.

That's a very convenient weasel-dodge you've just done, there.

"Pull" is only used in demolition terms to describe pulling a building down with cables.

Why are you avoiding all of the great points I made in response to your post:

Oh, the irony.

Er... no. Ask an engineer. Or a physician. Or a grade-school kid.

Hahahahahaha... No emphasis necessary.

So I take it you DON'T have more knowledge than a grade-school kid in these matters ?

[Belz...]

Brilliant! I love how God had to nudge it twice, cause he couldn't get it right the first time.

Just like with the flood.

[Belz...]

Okay... cool, so what is: This building is about to blow up... lingo for?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr5TxKTMRx0

What does this have to do with common sense, again ?

No... you need to defend all three of the rescue workers who said the building was going to blow up... and the other one who proclaimed that the building was about to come down. Now you tell me... how do you predict when a building is gonna come down without knowing it is being blown up?

Gosh, you really ARE dense. Haven't you read what was said about the building tilting and creaking ?

I'm biting my tongue on this one... the firefighters were obviously told by their superiors that bombs were in WTC 7... OKAY? You with me so far?

"Obviously" ? What's so "obvious" about it ?

Oh wait... you don't live in the real world... you live in a virtual world of speculation.

Really. Let's read that again.

I'm biting my tongue on this one... the firefighters were obviously told by their superiors that bombs were in WTC 7... OKAY? You with me so far?

NOT speculation ?

I apologize guys... but, I have to put some more of you on ignore... because I will be suspended or banned... if I have to continue reading this mindless drivel.

Translation provided by Belzimpliedtm

"I apologize guys... but, I have to put some more of you on ignore... because I can't possibly find adequate retorts to your points without changing the subject."

Maybe the superiors were told of the bombs by the Fire Department Commander...

Is that speculation ?

Maybe... you are naive and don't know how the media suppresses information....

Claim of inside knowledge ?

or how basic human psychology works.

Are you a psychologist, 28 ? Still waiting on that.

Bush clearly told us...

"You're either with us... or you're with the terrorists."

Pretty strong words.. don't you think?

Well, Bush IS a dolt.

But... not to worry... you'll have your martial law soon enough...

Yes, Charlton Heston's been saying that for a while, too.

you do realize that it's legal for you to be arrested simply for speaking out against the official story, right?

Are you writing this from your prison cell, or from your comfy home, hypocrit ?

[Belz...]

Now... I'm gonna use your words against you... Why do you think no one has sued Alex Jones for libel and/or slander? I mean have you heard the unambiguous claims he has made not only against organizations but specific individuals? Do you know how easy it would be for these powerful persons/entities to file a lawsuit against Alex Jones? At the very least they could make his life a living hell by tying him up in court...and swamping him in debt with legal fees, so why hasn't anyone done this?

I MEAN HAVE YOU HEARD SOME OF THE THINGS ALEX JONES HAS SAID? The CIA imports most of the drugs into the country... DynCorp, Halliburton and the UN run child prostitution rings...

So why ISN'T crazy Jones in jail ?

[JonnyFive]

It seems that 28th Kan't Understand Physics has left the building. Oh well, I was really looking forward to him actually providing evidence of something something.

[Regnad Kcin]

I have dominated all of you on many different topics and in many different threads... and now it's starting to get really stale and boring.. There's just no challenge to it anymore... the only defense you people have are insults and chaotic theories which defy the laws of probability and the physical world....

I really have pity for you all... and have exercised some mercy at times - but when it comes down to me clearly proving NIST wrong... all of you are reduced to nothing more than babbling children... spouting off insults.

Remember, the major difference between truthers and deniers... is that truthers want to unite (with deniers) ... truthers want to be on the same team... truthers don't want conflict... deniers only want conflict... deniers will do anything to remain divided from truthers... And, therein lies the problem...Ha ha ha ha ha!

Ha!

[aggle-rithm]

BACK TO THE TOPIC....

Another aspect of science that is counterintuitive is the study of human memory. Common sense tells us that the more confidence we have in our memory of something, the more likely it is to be correct.

WRONG!

There is no relationship between confidence and accuracy. This has been proven in study after study, to the dismay of those participating.

[JonnyFive]

Another aspect of science that is counterintuitive is the study of human memory. Common sense tells us that the more confidence we have in our memory of something, the more likely it is to be correct.

WRONG!

There is no relationship between confidence and accuracy. This has been proven in study after study, to the dismay of those participating.

I've always found that extremely interesting. The level of certainty we can have in false memories is simply amazing. It just goes to show you how much we rely on our ability to accurately process and interpret reality.

For example, see ChristopherA, who made up a documentary that never existed and is 100% convinced it was real.

[aggle-rithm]

I've always found that extremely interesting. The level of certainty we can have in false memories is simply amazing. It just goes to show you how much we rely on our ability to accurately process and interpret reality.

For example, see ChristopherA, who made up a documentary that never existed and is 100% convinced it was real.

Most often, this comes up because troofers believe memory is infallible, and any discrepancy is evidence of lying.

When I told one troofer (who found it suspicious that Bush had several different stories about how he first heard of the attacks) about a memory study involving college-age kids, he said, "Bush isn't a college kid! He's the president!"

Indeed, he's not a college kid. College kids have much better memories than men in their fifties.

[JimBenArm]

Most often, this comes up because troofers believe memory is infallible, and any discrepancy is evidence of lying.

When I told one troofer (who found it suspicious that Bush had several different stories about how he first heard of the attacks) about a memory study involving college-age kids, he said, "Bush isn't a college kid! He's the president!"

Indeed, he's not a college kid. College kids have much better memories than men in their fifties.

Wait a minute! What's that supposed to mean? Darn kids, making fun of us old guys again.

What were we talking about again?

[defaultdotxbe]

BACK TO THE TOPIC....

Another aspect of science that is counterintuitive is the study of human memory. Common sense tells us that the more confidence we have in our memory of something, the more likely it is to be correct.

WRONG!

There is no relationship between confidence and accuracy. This has been proven in study after study, to the dismay of those participating.
many peopel think remembering soemthign is liek reading a file off a computer disk, once its stored it never changes

but thats not true, everytime you remember something your are re-experiencing it, reanalyzing, reinterpreting, and re-remembering it (possibly differently)

this is why eyewitnesses in criminal cases arent that useful unless there is corroborating physical evidence (and why mass UFO sitings can still be venus)

[maccy]

During the course of the epic tussle with Lyte Trip and Skeptic4Sure over the eyewitness testimony in their (still unreleased) video, I amassed quite a few sources on this. There's a summary here:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2132245&postcount=225

The video clips are especially interesting.

Edited to add: but the videos are no longer on YouTube...

[Paul]

As an interesting addition I offer some paraphrased statements from a TV program last night. All these were within a few sentences: "sounded like an explosion", "like a plane had crashed into the building" and "like an asteroid had come through the roof".

Troofer logic tells us, therefore, that an exploding asteroid plane had crashed into the gentleman's sporting goods store. In reality, however, and old lady had driven her VW through the font window while trying to park.

[Belz...]

Please, have your family watch 9/11 Press for Truth, and other 9/11 documentaries. I implore you... you can help save the world.

Ah, saving the world. Helps give you some sense of self-worth between two sessions of Zelda, doesn't it ?

Psychology is complex... and you don't understand the first thing about it.

Just because you can say "Do you think if brain surgeons had the power to prevent all future brain/head injuries from happening - with a snap of the fingers... that they would do it, even if it means they would be out of a career that they have devoted over 10 years of schooling to?" doesn't mean you understand people's psychology, bucko.

You are a liar and a gatekeeper.

Accusing opponents of working for a non-existent, all-encompassing entity doesn't give you any points in a debate.

I quit.

Friend, you quit long ago.

[Belz...]

It very well may have. I've noticed a tendency among CTists, in that they seem to think that those of us who don't see the world as an evil place are hopelessly naive. They seem to see this world as one where every man is against every other man, and no one ever cooperates, except to the extent that they can be bribed or coerced into cooperating.

It does seem to be the standard "x-files" worldview of the CTers.

I've always found that extremely interesting. The level of certainty we can have in false memories is simply amazing. It just goes to show you how much we rely on our ability to accurately process and interpret reality.

Some people, however, DO have phenomenal memories, or at least better memories than other people. My memory, though far from infaillible, is, for some reason, excellent with details, even 20 years after the fact. Important stuff, however, is another matter.

[defaultdotxbe]

Some people, however, DO have phenomenal memories, or at least better memories than other people. My memory, though far from infaillible, is, for some reason, excellent with details, even 20 years after the fact. Important stuff, however, is another matter.
yeah, im the same way, a wealth of useless information like being able to quote song lyrics, and movie and tv scripts verbatim

but where i left my car keys is another matter entirely....

[uk_dave]

Despite the fact that 28th Kingdom is a LIAR, he has served one useful purpose on this thread, and that is to highlight that it's not just a case of misplaced trust in their own common sense which makes the CTers think the way that they do, but it is also their lack of imagination.

The LIAR known as 28th Kingdom was at great pains to proclaim that he had the ability to imagine and us mere mortals were lacking that capacity. But he had it arse about face.

The CTers mind is closed to being able to imagine anything which is contradictory to their common sense.

I would suggest that all critical thinkers on this site are perfectly capable of imagining 9/11 as a vast government conspiracy, but it is in doing so that we discover the flaws in that hypothesis.

We can imagine the wtc towers being brought down by controlled demolition, even including thermite, but we can also imagine:

The difficulty with planting the demolition charges/devices
The problems of maintaining secrecy for such a large undertaking
The potential for premature detonation caused by the plane impacts and fire
The potential for damage to the control mechanism for those demolition charges/devices from the plane impacts and fire
The difficulty of hiding the visual and audible evidence of explosive demolition charges being used
The potential for failure of the CD and subsequent discovery of the plot
The difficulty of making thermite work in a manner capable of cuting vertical columns
The potential for experts around the world to question our official version of events if the impact damage and fire scenario is considered to be impossible.So we have the imagination to see the flaws in the supposed conspiracy, but the CTer appears blind to these logical contradictions and attempts to dismiss them with more and more outlandish notions such as beam weapons, holograms instead of planes and of course the worldwide media cover-up. But again, those notions are full of flaws which only a person with a normal healthy imagination seems able to comprehend.

Anyway, just thought I'd mention it........

...carry on.

[JimBenArm]

UK_Dave, why do you keep calling 28K a liar? Just because he never once said anything true is no reason to do that!

[uk_dave]

UK_Dave, why do you keep calling 28K a liar? Just because he never once said anything true is no reason to do that!

JimBenArm,

I don't call 28K a liar, I call him a LIAR! :D

[JimBenArm]

JimBenArm,

I don't call 28K a liar, I call him a LIAR! :D

I sit corrected.

[JonnyFive]

I sit corrected.

It's better for the posture that way.

[Fnord]

Sit up straight.

[Architect]

I see that, despite my absence for something approaching 72 hours, our friendly local fraud and coward 28th has failed to move this discussion on any.

Perhaps he's PMed me with his response to the Edinburgh and Sheffield papers........

[JonnyFive]

Perhaps he's PMed me with his response to the Edinburgh and Sheffield papers........

I see your stint in the hospital hasn't dulled your sense of humor any. :)

Welcome back.

[aggle-rithm]

Some people, however, DO have phenomenal memories, or at least better memories than other people. My memory, though far from infaillible, is, for some reason, excellent with details, even 20 years after the fact. Important stuff, however, is another matter.

That's the thing, though...without corroborating evidence, we don't KNOW whether we have great memories or not. We might THINK we do, but then when we look at the evidence, we may realize we've gotten it spectacularly wrong.

I've always thought I had an excellent memory, and I guess I do. I have learned, however, not to be surprised if I find out my memory is in error. A good test is watching a movie that has some good lines in it, and seeing how well your memory of the lines matches the actual dialogue.

[aggle-rithm]

Wait a minute! What's that supposed to mean? Darn kids, making fun of us old guys again.

What were we talking about again?

I was talking to a doctor who was in his fifties, and he complained that he couldn't remember things as well as he once could. I told him about a theory I had heard, that memory problems with age are actually a sign that the brain is fine-tuning itself, learning to weed out memories that aren't vital to survival.

He just smiled and said, "I wish that were true. But it just isn't."

[CurtC]

So these two older guys were talking about their medical conditions, and one told the other that "you need to see my doctor about that. I had that, and he fixed me right up."

The second man asked "What's the name of your doctor?"

The first thought, then turned around to ask his wife, but hesitated, and then turned back around and asked the first man, "what's the name of that flower that's red and the stem has thorns?"

The second man said "rose?"

The the first said "yeah, that's it." Then turned back towards his wife and said "Hey Rose, what's the name of that doctor that fixed me up so well?"

[JimBenArm]

So these two older guys were talking about their medical conditions, and one told the other that "you need to see my doctor about that. I had that, and he fixed me right up."

The second man asked "What's the name of your doctor?"

The first thought, then turned around to ask his wife, but hesitated, and then turned back around and asked the first man, "what's the name of that flower that's red and the stem has thorns?"

The second man said "rose?"

The the first said "yeah, that's it." Then turned back towards his wife and said "Hey Rose, what's the name of that doctor that fixed me up so well?"

OK, buddy, you're on my list!

Soon as I remember where I put it...

[Horatius]

The second man said "rose?"

The the first said "yeah, that's it." Then turned back towards his wife and said "Hey Rose, what's the name of that doctor that fixed me up so well?"

I resemble that remark!

Last Tuesday, I was at my dojo, and at one point, was reciting a short list of katas, and the order they appear in the set we were doing. After saying three of the names, that we'd be practicing in the next few minutes, I went back to the first - and couldn't remember the name! That I had just said 10 seconds earlier! :blush: I couldn't remember it until after I had done the kata. Something about the body-memory clicked it back into place.

Yukichigai, just in case you're wondering.

Memory is infallible, they say?

[notheist]

The reason none of you left-brain radicals have any common sense, is because you lack imagination, which is at the heart of functioning common sense. (sadly, for you guys/gals - this creative component of imaginary lives in the right-side of the brain)

********! I have made a living as an artist for most of my life and one of my strongest abilities as an artist is to visualize complex subjects. See some of my stuff at motorsportsartist.com

I can tell you in fact most of the conspiracy theorist I see or meet are totally lacking in imagination and ability to visualize outside the narrow political agenda they have embraced. They sure know how to play the part of the creative type. I also see in many of my fellow artist an anti-science sentiment, and a gullible acceptance of counter culture Woo Woo, Some are quite shocked after seeing some of my paintings to find out what a rationalist I am and how I make no bones about poking holes in such mushy thinking as UFOs, astrology, 9/11 Truthers and whatever delusion de jour happens to be the IN thing. Fuzzy thinking does not make you more creative, just stupider. Somehow I think Leonardo da Vinci would not be fooled by the conspiracy theorist.

Why didn't NIST (in their 3+ years of reporting) take the time to show us something as critical and important as how the falling upper mass caused the core columns to break and fall within the symmetrical progression of the collapse? And, by show us... I am, of course, referring to imaginary - and not a mesh of complex and contradictory terms (linguistic symbols) that only serve to dilute our thoughts (minds) down into a dark abyss of disillusionment... well beyond the light and sounds of a sensory experience i.e. REALITY

So basically NIST has to create a nice cartoon because YOU lack the imagination to visualize it yourself? Dumb it down to pretty pictures for you to understand. I have no problem at all comprehending what happened, and visualizing it in my head. You see the towers as these super strong buildings, something like bigger versions of the buildings you made as a child with Tinker Toys, You can’t visualize that at the massive sizes the WTC were built your normal size perceptions wall apart and must yield to the physics at play at that scale. HELL! I bet you could even visualize the towers falling over like a tree and have no comprehension exactly why that is impossible.

Now it could be because not only being an artist I read a lot of technical and science related stuff. You need to pick up some good science books and stay away from the pretty pictures and movies. Expand your knowlage and creativity will follow.

Remember too this report was created for the type of people with the expertice to undstand what is happening, not the general public, They assume you know a little something to begin with and don’t need every little detail explained to you. You want a comic book.

[T.A.M.]

Horatius:

Boy do I have a cholinesterase Inhibitor for you...lol

TAM

[notheist]

Please, have your family watch 9/11 Press for Truth, and other 9/11 documentaries. I implore you... you can help save the world. And, please tell your FDNY family members, that I admire them... and God Bless.


911truthiness.org

Some Men ARE Heros

Made as a reaction to that awful FDNY Firemen and GWB picture.

[Horatius]

Horatius:

Boy do I have a cholinesterase Inhibitor for you...lol

TAM

Do I want to know what that is?

Of course, that's just the most recent example of my mind going. I've got others, like the time I forgot my buddy's name for like, two months!

Lucky for me he was in a different city at the time.....

[T.A.M.]

Alzheimers meds...lol

TAM

[Horatius]

911truthiness.org

Some Men ARE Heros

Made as a reaction to that awful FDNY Firemen and GWB picture.

I like how Bermas has his mouth wide open. You really captured the essence :)

I also like this one from the site you posted earlier:

http://www.motorsportsartist.com/na_page14.html

But of course, most people here could probably tell I'm a cat person.

[Horatius]

Alzheimers meds...lol

TAM

Well, it does run in the familiy. It could also be the tens years of kendo, though.....

i7DJfKyLdHs

[Arus808]

Some Men ARE Heros



http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/4606/02028rea3.jpg

[T.A.M.]

Note to self. Refrain from engaging in any leisure activity that allows another person to beat me over the head with a big stick.

tAM

[LashL]

http://http://www.911truthiness.org/

Thanks, notheist :)

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1110345a7f90e69065.jpg

[LashL]

OOPS - that link is wrong, sorry. Here is the correct one (too late to edit my prior post):

http://911truthiness.org

[Horatius]

Note to self. Refrain from engaging in any leisure activity that allows another person to beat me over the head with a big stick.

tAM

But on the plus side, you do get to beat them back. And then they thank you for it!

And there's all that yelling....:)

[Hellbound]

But on the plus side, you do get to beat them back. And then they thank you for it!

And there's all that yelling....:)

So...it's kinda like a Mosh pit, but with fewer people?

:D

[Horatius]

So...it's kinda like a Mosh pit, but with fewer people?

:D



Unless you're doing a "balloon keiko", in which everyone has a balloon tied to their helmet, and the last unpopped one wins. That gets a bit frantic :)

And there's usually no music!

Except for the Chicago Dojo, which used to share the space with the Japanese Taiko Drummer group. From what I've heard, that was quite the experience.

[Coritani]

That not crazy enough for you? Perhaps it would flip off:

http://home.comcast.net/%7Ejerry.jobe/WTC3.jpg (http://home.comcast.net/%7Ejerry.jobe/WTC3.jpg)



I find this hilarious for some reason.

[LashL]

I find this hilarious for some reason.

That's because it IS hilarious :)

(and the animated adaptation is even more hilarious...)

[T.A.M.]

on a more serious note (we can try) how long would the gap on the right have to be, for the top to actually tip over? curious?

TAM

[jhunter1163]

I saw a post from someone a few hundred threads ago that really stuck in my mind re: this. The poster said that OF COURSE the towers fell straight down. The inertia of the portion of the tower above the impact zone wouldn't let it do anything else BUT fall straight down. The lateral deflection imparted by the plane and the removal of the supports isn't enough to overcome the tendency of 100,000 tons or so of tower to fall straight down.

I hope I got that right. That was the general idea of the post.

[Horatius]

on a more serious note (we can try) how long would the gap on the right have to be, for the top to actually tip over? curious?

TAM

Well, to "tip over", the centre of gravity of the upper block would have to be past the pivot point of where the right corner touches the lower block.

If you look at the thrid stage of the above figure, where that corner and the CG are just above one another, and take a look at how high the left corner is, that's about as high as that corner would have to be. So, a significant fraction of the overall dimensions of the towers. Of course, this treats all the blocks as solid, which they're not.

For instance, the figure shows the right corners touching near to the edge, but if it had rotated this far while remaining attached at the left, the contact point would be more in the center, where there's less solid material to support the block as it continues to tip.

Of course, if the left side support was this tall, it would likely also buckle as the block rotates, and the degree of rotation would be greater, meaning the support is more likely to fail due to bending before the right corner makes contact.

[Andúril]

I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for flat steel beams would be 5.6 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

...

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 5.6 = 23.24 seconds.

There's something severely wrong with your calculations. Can you figure out what it is? No? Well, very few conspiracy theorists can.

I bet you won't even realize that you have just proved the absolute correctness of Dr Adequate's words:

These are the people who will use the phrase "faster than free fall" as if it had meaning. Now, as I said, I've studied the physics of gravity at university, but forget that, let me also say that I've studied physics at high school. So I know that the phrase "faster than free fall" is meaningless drivel.

But for most people, I wouldn't have to go into the maths, because if they were shown an animated cartoon in which "free fall" was a velocity rather than an acceleration, they would burst out laughing, just like they'd burst out laughing at the cartoon of the marble going in a spiral.

And then there is the tiny percentage of people who neither know the physics nor have any learned instincts about motion; and who will talk as though "free fall" is a velocity; as though falling was like going down in an elevator.

These are the CTs.

[Firestone]

I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for flat steel beams would be 5.6 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

...

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 5.6 = 23.24 seconds.There's something severely wrong with your calculations. Can you figure out what it is? No? Well, very few conspiracy theorists can.

I bet you won't even realize that you have just proved the absolute correctness of Dr Adequate's words:

These are the people who will use the phrase "faster than free fall" as if it had meaning. Now, as I said, I've studied the physics of gravity at university, but forget that, let me also say that I've studied physics at high school. So I know that the phrase "faster than free fall" is meaningless drivel.

But for most people, I wouldn't have to go into the maths, because if they were shown an animated cartoon in which "free fall" was a velocity rather than an acceleration, they would burst out laughing, just like they'd burst out laughing at the cartoon of the marble going in a spiral.

And then there is the tiny percentage of people who neither know the physics nor have any learned instincts about motion; and who will talk as though "free fall" is a velocity; as though falling was like going down in an elevator.

These are the CTs.:)

Hello Andúril!

Can you imagine that this is actually the only thing that (the frequently lying) 28th Kingdom has proven so far on this forum?

[Andúril]

:)

Hello Andúril!

Can you imagine that this is actually the only thing that (the frequently lying) 28th Kingdom has proven so far on this forum?

Actually, yes I can. =D I've been reading the posts of this forum for a couple of days with great interest. You see, those conspiracy theorists are the same everywhere, regardless of their nationality. Recently I participated to an intense debate that eventually covered about 350 pages before the conspiracy theorists finally disappeared for some time to lick their wounds. :)

(But it's not only with conspiracy theories where they show their insanity; in other discussions they often prove themselves to be practically brainwashed leftist extremists who have strong sympathies towards islamic terrorists in Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq and they also share the terrorists' enormous hatred towards Western politics and Israel. Their ignorance goes down to levels where it's hard to believe that most of them actually are grown-up adults and not just teenage rebels without a clue.)

[Horatius]

Actually, yes I can. =D I've been reading the posts of this forum for a couple of days with great interest. You see, those conspiracy theorists are the same everywhere, regardless of their nationality. Recently I participated to an intense debate that eventually covered about 350 pages before the conspiracy theorists finally disappeared for some time to lick their wounds. :)



I agree with you about how they're all the same. You can tell that very few of them do any original thinking, by how often they just parrot the same old arguments we've all seen a thousand times.

I was looking at your intorduction post:


I'm an engineering student from Finland. I'm a some sort of sceptic, preferring science and opposing religions, but also valuing arts and culture. My hobbies include classical music (particularly Wagner ;)), medieval swordsmanship and armour-making in local medieval history groups, plastic model kits (mainly battleships/starships) and some RTS computer games from Age of Empires to Empire Earth.


You sound like you'll fit in quite well. While we may bash the artsies occasionally, I think a lot of people here will share your interests in art and culture.

As for the swords, we actuall have enough trained swordspeople here that we were discussing starting a "sharp and pointy things club". We range from Japanese stylist like myself, to a few fencers and medieval types like you. So feel free to refer to swinging the steel, some of us will understand what you're talking about!

[Andúril]

I was looking at your intorduction post:

...

You sound like you'll fit in quite well. While we may bash the artsies occasionally, I think a lot of people here will share your interests in art and culture.
I'm sure about that, even after I point out that when I'm talkin about "art", I refer to people like Leonardo, Donatello, Bach and Mozart, not to those hippies who splat paint on a wall or brutalize musical instruments and call it art (and deserve to be bashed every now and then). ;)


As for the swords, we actuall have enough trained swordspeople here that we were discussing starting a "sharp and pointy things club". We range from Japanese stylist like myself, to a few fencers and medieval types like you. So feel free to refer to swinging the steel, some of us will understand what you're talking about!
This sounds very promising. I haven't tried kendo, but I have fenced for several years before adding on the longsword. Sadly, my studies have made it difficult to attend all of my activities (means I'm often too tired), so I had to drop "normal" fencing for a while... but I have still been able to attend most medieval swordsmanship lessons; it's not "only" swordfighting, but also very practical martial art when it comes to close combat and dagger techniques... :D

Time to go to sleep now... it's almost 4 A.M. here...

[Horatius]

Sadly, my studies have made it difficult to attend all of my activities (means I'm often too tired), so I had to drop "normal" fencing for a while... but I have still been able to attend most medieval swordsmanship lessons; it's not "only" swordfighting, but also very practical martial art when it comes to close combat and dagger techniques... :D

Time to go to sleep now... it's almost 4 A.M. here...

Damn that real life, getting in the way of the important stuff!

Ah, well, I've always said any practice is better than no practice at all. You just have to keep swinging. I find having a backyard with good hedges helps there.

I did kendo for about 10 years, but now I'm sticking mostly to Iaido. Our style includes some 2-person stuff with a bit of grappling in it, and we have a new member who knows a few more of those sorts of things, so we're hoping to include that more in our practice. Should be fun!

[The Silver Shadow]

Actually, yes I can. =D I've been reading the posts of this forum for a couple of days with great interest. You see, those conspiracy theorists are the same everywhere, regardless of their nationality. Recently I participated to an intense debate that eventually covered about 350 pages before the conspiracy theorists finally disappeared for some time to lick their wounds. :)

(But it's not only with conspiracy theories where they show their insanity; in other discussions they often prove themselves to be practically brainwashed leftist extremists who have strong sympathies towards islamic terrorists in Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq and they also share the terrorists' enormous hatred towards Western politics and Israel. Their ignorance goes down to levels where it's hard to believe that most of them actually are grown-up adults and not just teenage rebels without a clue.)
If you don't mind me asking, are you a right winger or a left winger? Just curious. I'm a left winger and a human biology student in Canada as well as an Iranian and a Muslim, and still, I don't believe in the conspiracy.

[~enigma~]

So...it's kinda like a Mosh pit, but with fewer people?

:DMosh...Let's do the woowoo mosh :)

[Andúril]

One last post before passing out...

Damn that real life, getting in the way of the important stuff!
Yes, that reality can sometimes be a pain in the ass.

I did kendo for about 10 years, but now I'm sticking mostly to Iaido. Our style includes some 2-person stuff with a bit of grappling in it, and we have a new member who knows a few more of those sorts of things, so we're hoping to include that more in our practice. Should be fun!
I've always thought that it might be fun to create a West vs. East -battle, with people dressed up as knights and samurais with good armours and then testing their skills against each other...:)

[Andúril]

If you don't mind me asking, are you a right winger or a left winger? Just curious. I'm a left winger and a human biology student in Canada as well as an Iranian and a Muslim, and still, I don't believe in the conspiracy.
Perhaps I'm a bit right from the center. At least I'm not a leftist - that most likely has a bit different meaning here than there. (We are neighbours to Russia.)

It's interesting how this conspiracy crap flourishes especially in the western countries. But I suppose you are not a very religious type of muslim? Just curious. :)

[The Silver Shadow]

I'm Iranian, that explains how devout I am :D

[bonavada]

Troofer logic tells us, therefore, that an exploding asteroid plane had crashed into the gentleman's sporting goods store. In reality, however, and old lady had driven her VW through the font window while trying to park.

you mentioned asteroids :-]

i've posted this before but it's worth doing so again. mickey kross, fireman at the wtc....

v_CmZMkvQ_w

BV

[Horatius]

I'm Iranian, that explains how devout I am :D

I've often wondered if there's a muslim equivalent of a C-and-E catholic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapsed_Catholic).


"Ramadan and Haj" Muslim, maybe?

[The Silver Shadow]

Ramadan, only when there's no classes. Haj, I'll try but not now. I think the only way I could define a lapsed Shia Muslim would be the fact that they don't drink too often, acknowledge the existance of Allah and consider pork to be a useless meat, but will have it from time to time...

[Horatius]

Sounds reasonable! Thanks!

[T.A.M.]

Silver:

Now that I know you are Iranian, and Muslim, I can state in advance, that if you ever see me post things about the Islamic Extremists, and the Jihadists, that the comments are not of racist intent, and hopefully will not be taken as such. I would just as easily call to accountability white catholics, if they had hijacked planes and ran them into the WTCs in the name of Jesus.

TAM:)

[The Silver Shadow]

Oh right, I should also put in that having a relationship is cool, but they couldn't care if they had a boyfriend or girlfriend at the moment.

[The Silver Shadow]

Silver:

Now that I know you are Iranian, and Muslim, I can state in advance, that if you ever see me post things about the Islamic Extremists, and the Jihadists, that the comments are not of racist intent, and hopefully will not be taken as such. I would just as easily call to accountability white catholics, if they had hijacked planes and ran them into the WTCs in the name of Jesus.

TAM:)
Don't worry, there are militants of every religion you can think of. The "Muslims" in this case were heavily brainwashed and part of a breakaway sect.

[Belz...]

That's the thing, though...without corroborating evidence, we don't KNOW whether we have great memories or not. We might THINK we do, but then when we look at the evidence, we may realize we've gotten it spectacularly wrong.

I've always thought I had an excellent memory, and I guess I do. I have learned, however, not to be surprised if I find out my memory is in error. A good test is watching a movie that has some good lines in it, and seeing how well your memory of the lines matches the actual dialogue.

Agreed. And as an example, I was watching a series I hadn't seen in over ten years, last year, and while watching an episode that I may have seen twice back in 1993, I was saying the characters' lines before they did. Scary.

[Belz...]

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/4606/02028rea3.jpg

Sweet. Could've done without super-dog, but sweet.

[Belz...]

Actually, yes I can. =D I've been reading the posts of this forum for a couple of days with great interest. You see, those conspiracy theorists are the same everywhere, regardless of their nationality. Recently I participated to an intense debate that eventually covered about 350 pages before the conspiracy theorists finally disappeared for some time to lick their wounds. :)

Heh. Welcome to the forum, Ô flame of the west.

(But it's not only with conspiracy theories where they show their insanity; in other discussions they often prove themselves to be practically brainwashed leftist extremists who have strong sympathies towards islamic terrorists in Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq and they also share the terrorists' enormous hatred towards Western politics and Israel. Their ignorance goes down to levels where it's hard to believe that most of them actually are grown-up adults and not just teenage rebels without a clue.)

I'm not sure that beign a leftist has anything to do with sympathising with terrorists, but then again I never understood exactly what people mean by "right" and "left", politically speaking.

The rest of your paragraph is right on the money, of course.

[Architect]

I think accusing the CTers as being left wing, socialist, or other similar titles is both unfair and inaccurate. As far as I can see we have a good smattering of anti-government, right wing nutcases as well as those who hate the Israelis, hate the Republicans, hate authority, and unfortunately despise logical reasoning.

[Andúril]

Silver:

Now that I know you are Iranian, and Muslim, I can state in advance, that if you ever see me post things about the Islamic Extremists, and the Jihadists, that the comments are not of racist intent, and hopefully will not be taken as such. I would just as easily call to accountability white catholics, if they had hijacked planes and ran them into the WTCs in the name of Jesus.

TAM:)
Just to avoid misunderstandings, I must say that my reasons are exactly the same as T.A.M.'s. I'm not a racist - I don't care about people's religion, race or colour. All I care is how they act: do they allow political or religious ideology to restrict the use of common sense? Sometimes my emotions burst a bit when I see extreme stupidity that's blind to all possible reasoning (after CTists, this occurs most often with christian creationists, however...:)), but don't take it wrong, folks.


Heh. Welcome to the forum, Ô flame of the west.

Aa, thank you. :)

I'm not sure that beign a leftist has anything to do with sympathising with terrorists, but then again I never understood exactly what people mean by "right" and "left", politically speaking.

Well, as I said above, being "leftist" very likely has a bit different meaning here where I live. As Finland (unfortunately) is a neighbour of Russia, here many leftists (and greens) really are very close to communists. When the Soviet Union collapsed, the major local communist (or actually stalinist) parties broke up and their members silently infiltrated among actual leftists, greens and social democrats. They are easily recognized by their more or less covered, extremely hateful attitude against especially everything where the U.S. is involved. Luckily they are in the minority now, but the seeds of evil they spread around during the decades of the Cold War still affect many people's thoughts.

[Vincent Vega]

This is very much a common sense question. Our typical experiences are that insulation decreases heat transfer between two regions. Common sense tells us that insulation always does this (because that is what it is designed to do and because we have no experience of this not being the case). This true/false question challenges that idea. If the answer is FALSE, then common sense holds and insulation always insulates. If the answer is TRUE, then common sense is wrong because there are cases where insulation does the opposite of insulating. Which is it?

Which of my true/false statements are true and describe cases where common sense fails? Which are false, meaning that common sense is correct and I simply made up the claim?

You also are missing the whole point of the test. I want to demonstrate one of the key reasons why common sense and intuition are not valid scientific explanations. Common sense and intuition rely upon personal experience, are subject to personal bias, often are only applicable on a specific scale, can oversimplify complex events, and completely fail when faced with counter-intuitive truths. This is why people become experts in various fields. Experts apply science so that they can make decisions and determinations based on verifiable evidence, not intuition. If an expert is forced to speculate, he does so with in-depth experience and knowledge that can make his speculation more accurate than those of someone who is not an expert in the applicable field.

In short, you are not an expert. Your "common sense" is not applicable to the events of 9/11.

Great post! Experts? We don' need no stinkin experts! We got common sense!

[Vincent Vega]

I think accusing the CTers as being left wing, socialist, or other similar titles is both unfair and inaccurate. As far as I can see we have a good smattering of anti-government, right wing nutcases as well as those who hate the Israelis, hate the Republicans, hate authority, and unfortunately despise logical reasoning.

In fact I think the original CT'ers were Right-Wing Anti-Semites. As opposed to left-wing anti-Zionists.

[ArmillarySphere]

Holy resurrection, Batman!

[pagan]

We've heard it again and again from the 'truthers':

"Common sense tells us......"

You know the drill: Present them with facts which are contrary to their view of the world and they start on about common sense being just as good as expertise.

So I started to wonder, what other examples of the real world can we present which are counter intuitive to common sense?

My favourites would be:

1. Speed of light

How can something have a constant speed regardless of how fast I am moving in relation to it? Surely common sense tells us that if I am travelling 'very fast' while carrying a torch, then the speed of the light coming out of that torch will be c + 'very fast', right? Just common sense.

2. Flying objects

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Evolution_of_Technology/lifting_bodies/Tech29G1.htm

How can these 'planes' fly when the wings are so short? Surely common sense tells us that the wings would have to be bigger to provide lift?

3. Strange Creatures

http://www.ocean.udel.edu/kiosk/bsmoker.html

How can creatures live in complete darkness and temperatures of 400 deg centigrade? Common sense tells us this is impossible, right?

Have at it

Common sense is the most important thing of all. It proves that 911 was a inside job.

If you don't see that, you are a moral loser or a Dubya loving, Arab hating, oil stealing bastid.

[stateofgrace]

Common sense is the most important thing of all. It proves that 911 was a inside job.

If you don't see that, you are a moral loser or a Dubya loving, Arab hating, oil stealing bastid.

I'm sure nobody will mind if I nominate this as a stundie, thanks.

[FactCheck]

Common sense is the most important thing of all. It proves that 911 was a inside job.

If you don't see that, you are a moral loser or a Dubya loving, Arab hating, oil stealing bastid.I think conspiracy theorists are used by Rove to make all liberals look like kooks. At least there is more evidence for that. Heh!

[pagan]

I'm sure nobody will mind if I nominate this as a stundie, thanks.

You are welcome.

It's time for me to win the stundie. Psst... Do you really think this will make it...? Hope so anyway.

[pagan]

I think conspiracy theorists are used by Rove to make all liberals look like kooks. At least there is more evidence for that. Heh!

I don't exactly know what you are getting at here? Me, a republican?

Hey, I am European SOB. Nothing republican in me. If I was an American I would vote for the Dems. Or more correctly on the libertarians.

[stateofgrace]

You are welcome.

It's time for me to win the stundie. Psst... Do you really think this will make it...? Hope so anyway.

I doubt it, but time is on your side. I am sure that in the future you will surpass your already unsurpassable level of ignorance.

[chipmunk stew]

I don't exactly know what you are getting at here? Me, a republican?

Hey, I am European SOB. Nothing republican in me. If I was an American I would vote for the Dems. Or more correctly on the libertarians.
And Mr. Rove will exploit this admission to paint liberals and Dems with the kook brush.

You may as well be a Republican for all the good you're doing for the liberal/Dem image.

[pagan]

I doubt it, but time is on your side. I am sure that in the future you will surpass your already unsurpassable level of ignorance.

Hope so, Gracie.:)

[twinstead]

So Pagan are you one of these days actually going to answer the rebuttals to your theory instead of talking crap?

You can accuse people of being blind Bush supporters in any thread you want, but the truth will track you down and put you in a logical headlock no matter where you hide.

So. A little less ad hom and a little more supporting your position with evidence and facts, huh?

[FactCheck]

I don't exactly know what you are getting at here? Me, a republican?

Hey, I am European SOB. Nothing republican in me. If I was an American I would vote for the Dems. Or more correctly on the libertarians.Then why are you helping republicans by making liberals look like fools? Why are you pushing an anti-government story if you would vote dem? If you are not republican, you sure are helping them. You're also helping conservative Alex Jones preach "hate the governemnt". You don't make a very convincing liberal.

You don't even know libertarians are more conservative than republicans. Liberals and dems would never vote libertarian. Heh!

[defaultdotxbe]

You don't even know libertarians are more conservative than republicans. Liberals and dems would never vote libertarian. Heh!
thats what happens when you use common sense, lol liberal - libertarian, make sense, no?

but common sense applies even less to politics than it does to science

[ArmillarySphere]

Me, I vote librarian. Those brainy gals are HOT!

[gumboot]

Me, I vote librarian. Those brainy gals are HOT!


I think that's the best response to a political discussion I have ever read in my life.

-Gumboot

[aggle-rithm]

Me, I vote librarian. Those brainy gals are HOT!

Lonely, too!

[notheist]

Hell if they could see what I think of Bush and conservatives in general I would be in a stress position in a government cell somewhere.

Conservatives are just unimaginative people afraid of change so they try and palm off the good old days as the best way to live.

BUT, I’m smart enough to see that there is a so called "Liberal" wing that is not truly progressive in nature. I call them the "low life left" the "liberal hillbilly". The truthers seem for the most part to be these pseudo-progressives.

They pretend an intellectual superiority but in fact no better then your typical KKK mouth breather bumpkin. They believe in pseudoscience over real science. Real science is not PC enough. They want to accept all ideas as valid but don't realize some ideas are pure ******** and need to thrown away even if it hurts someone self esteem.

The 911 Truth Movement is one of those things that needs to be **** canned. We have a chance to push out the conservatives and get a truly progressive government in office but the "nutcase" liberal could ruin the whole thing.

[notheist]

On the subject of common sense I believe the concept of why large scale structures do not have the same strength as a comparable smaller structure is important when trying to understand how the WTC fell like it did. This seems counter intuitive but is a reality.

Galileo on Scaling

People have this distorted view as to the strength of the WTC Towers, How could something with support columns so huge fall so easily and fast? This warped view is very common with the people in the 911 truth movement who do not understanding the physics of large scale structures and conversely buy all sorts of conspiracy theorist conceptions involving explosives and some even believing in building melting death rays from space. Some have even gone as far as making models of the towers out of various materials to try and replicate the collapse not realizing the scaling problem would make them useless tests.

Galileo addressed this misconception long ago in a lectures on scaling. Addressing the idea that imperfections in the material not size would make large scale object weaker he said

Yet I shall say it and will affirm that, even if the imperfections did not exist and matter were absolutely perfect, unalterable and free from all accidental variations, still the mere fact that it is matter makes the larger machine, built of the same material and in the same proportion as the smaller, correspond with exactness to the smaller in every respect except that it will not be so strong or so resistant against violent treatment; the larger the machine, the greater its weakness.

Basically he is saying what we all know, The bigger they are the harder thy fall. It’s impossible to build two similar structures of the same material, but of different sizes and have them proportionately strong. The mater that makes up steel will be the same irregardless of the amount, the atomic bond is the same big or small.

He goes on.

And to make sure that we understand each other, I say that if we take a wooden rod of a certain length and size, fitted, say, into a wall at right angles, i. e., parallel to the horizon, it may be reduced to such a length that it will just support itself; so that if a hair’s breadth be added to its length it will break under its own weight and will be the only rod of the kind in the world.* Thus if, for instance, its length be a hundred times its breadth, you will not be able to find another rod whose length is also a hundred times its breadth and which, like the former, is just able to sustain its own weight and no more: all the larger ones will break while all the shorter ones will be strong enough to support something more than their own weight. And this which I have said about the ability to support itself must be understood to apply also to other tests; so that if a piece of scantling will carry the weight of ten similar to itself, a beam having the same proportions will not be able to support ten similar beams.

Your perceptions of things you deal with on a daily basis is not the same in the world of giants such as the WTC. You can build a desk of wood or even steel with reasonable size legs and put what to you is huge amounts of books on it and it will not fail. You can consider it common sense that a desk a thousands time bigger would be a thousands time stronger BUT you would be wrong.

The WTC were a delicate balancing act the taller you make it the stronger you need to make the supports, the bigger the supports the more weight you add and you have to now add strength to hold this extra weight. But on the other hand you build with eye towards lightness and depend on a clever distribution of loads rather then super strong (heavy) construction you can build super tall with lots of open office space.

The WTC achieved its strength not by over engineering but by a clever design that made optimum use of a center core and an outer box wall design. Unfortunately when those two elements were compromised by aircraft impacts and fire we all saw what happened, 911 would have been no surprise to Galileo.

[aggle-rithm]

On the subject of common sense I believe the concept of why large scale structures do not have the same strength as a comparable smaller structure is important when trying to understand how the WTC fell like it did. This seems counter intuitive but is a reality.

Galileo on Scaling

People have this distorted view as to the strength of the WTC Towers, How could something with support columns so huge fall so easily and fast? This warped view is very common with the people in the 911 truth movement who do not understanding the physics of large scale structures and conversely buy all sorts of conspiracy theorist conceptions involving explosives and some even believing in building melting death rays from space. Some have even gone as far as making models of the towers out of various materials to try and replicate the collapse not realizing the scaling problem would make them useless tests.

Galileo addressed this misconception long ago in a lectures on scaling. Addressing the idea that imperfections in the material not size would make large scale object weaker he said

Yet I shall say it and will affirm that, even if the imperfections did not exist and matter were absolutely perfect, unalterable and free from all accidental variations, still the mere fact that it is matter makes the larger machine, built of the same material and in the same proportion as the smaller, correspond with exactness to the smaller in every respect except that it will not be so strong or so resistant against violent treatment; the larger the machine, the greater its weakness.

Basically he is saying what we all know, The bigger they are the harder thy fall. It’s impossible to build two similar structures of the same material, but of different sizes and have them proportionately strong. The mater that makes up steel will be the same irregardless of the amount, the atomic bond is the same big or small.

He goes on.

And to make sure that we understand each other, I say that if we take a wooden rod of a certain length and size, fitted, say, into a wall at right angles, i. e., parallel to the horizon, it may be reduced to such a length that it will just support itself; so that if a hair’s breadth be added to its length it will break under its own weight and will be the only rod of the kind in the world.* Thus if, for instance, its length be a hundred times its breadth, you will not be able to find another rod whose length is also a hundred times its breadth and which, like the former, is just able to sustain its own weight and no more: all the larger ones will break while all the shorter ones will be strong enough to support something more than their own weight. And this which I have said about the ability to support itself must be understood to apply also to other tests; so that if a piece of scantling will carry the weight of ten similar to itself, a beam having the same proportions will not be able to support ten similar beams.

Your perceptions of things you deal with on a daily basis is not the same in the world of giants such as the WTC. You can build a desk of wood or even steel with reasonable size legs and put what to you is huge amounts of books on it and it will not fail. You can consider it common sense that a desk a thousands time bigger would be a thousands time stronger BUT you would be wrong.

The WTC were a delicate balancing act the taller you make it the stronger you need to make the supports, the bigger the supports the more weight you add and you have to now add strength to hold this extra weight. But on the other hand you build with eye towards lightness and depend on a clever distribution of loads rather then super strong (heavy) construction you can build super tall with lots of open office space.

The WTC achieved its strength not by over engineering but by a clever design that made optimum use of a center core and an outer box wall design. Unfortunately when those two elements were compromised by aircraft impacts and fire we all saw what happened, 911 would have been no surprise to Galileo.

Good post. I have tried to make this argument to troofers many times, but they lacked the wit to comprehend what I was telling them.

The example I used was: "Try flipping a doghouse upside down. Observe what happens. Now try to imagine what would happen if you flipped a REAL house upside down."

Their response was something like "LOL TEH WTC WON'T MADE OF WUD LOL".

[cloudshipsrule]

Their response was something like "LOL TEH WTC WON'T MADE OF WUD LOL".

This is one of the most humerous posts I've read in a long time! So true.

[notheist]

Another good example is the Titanic.

When found it was discovered it had broken in half and this jived with what witnesses had observed.

This massive ship was designed to remain horizontal in water, when it sank it was pulled to a vertical position and the force of gravity broke it in half.

The WTC was designed to stand upright. if you tried to make it fall over it would crumble like a bunch of matchsticks. Only in Godzila movies can buildings be knocked over. Truthers watch too many movies and don't read enough real science books. AND their main guy, David Ray Griffin has stated in the past, "if the WTC had fallen over" DUH!!!! Stick to theology Dave.