Help! With the Bible

[CBVan]

I need some help finding a particular bible section. I'm looking for the sections in the old testament that contain the rules that modern day christains do not follow and largely ignore.
I need this because of a debate I am having on another forum about religion.
If someone has a link to, say, a bible search engine, or helpful links dealing with similarly wierd sections of the bible, I would be most greatful.

[Brown]

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

[GodMark2]

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

We really need a shorter version of that link for lousy spellers like me...

[ChristineR]

Well, there's the entire Old Testament, which Christians have given themselves an "out" on. In the NT the best place to look is the letters of Paul. Paul was dealing with some really extreme fringe groups, and felt the need to tell them not to have orgies and stuff like that, but he also tells them not to let women speak in church and that slaves should obey their masters and so on.

[D2011]

http://www.evilbible.com/

D2011

[CapelDodger]

Well, there's the entire Old Testament, which Christians have given themselves an "out" on. In the NT the best place to look is the letters of Paul. Paul was dealing with some really extreme fringe groups, and felt the need to tell them not to have orgies and stuff like that, but he also tells them not to let women speak in church and that slaves should obey their masters and so on.
Paul ditched the Old Covenant before he had the New Covenant well-defined, without, I suspect, appreciating the consequences. Do away with the import of actions and substitute one simple belief - "Jesus has saved me already" - and orgies are what I'd expect, but then I'm a worldly cynic. Paul was still thinking on his feet right up until the moment he was hoisted off them. I doubt the Early Church was anything like what he had in mind.

Nobody, of any religion, had a problem with slavery in those days. It was a recognised human condition. As is being female, but not all religions of the time assumed the subjugation of women. The Mediterranean ones did, and that's where Paul came from. If a society gave a voice to women it was regarded as a mark of barbarism.

[Bikewer]

Although in some of the non-canonical gospels, it was evident that women featured strongly in JC's entourage, and that MM was considered an apostle....

Some of the early Christian sects were so alienated by the OT version of God that they decided this was a different God entirely; an insane rogue god who had created the world as a sort of cosmic joke.

[Meadmaker]

I need some help finding a particular bible section. I'm looking for the sections in the old testament that contain the rules that modern day christains do not follow and largely ignore.
I need this because of a debate I am having on another forum about religion.
If someone has a link to, say, a bible search engine, or helpful links dealing with similarly wierd sections of the bible, I would be most greatful.


Most of the "laws" are found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

One other approach would be to google the phrase "613 mitzvot". The rabbis who wrote the Jewish scholarly works scoured the Torah, and tried to find every place where God handed down rules that were meant to be obeyed by all of his people for all time. They came up with 613 of these rules. It might be a handier list, because it will be written down in nice, simple, lists, but very long.

Make sure not to forget the 10 commandments. You know, the ones that include "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk."

ETA: The first hit seems like a very good one. It has the list of 613, complete with referenced chapter and verse.

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

[Meri]

Make sure not to forget the 10 commandments. You know, the ones that include "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk."


Even in the more familiar ten commandments, there's always the "do not make graven images" rule. I always wonder how that applied to giant stone ten commandments monuments.

A couple of specific lists of rules in the bible I know of are the dietary laws in Leviticus 11, and Leviticus 25 contains a whole list of rules about planting, land, slaves, etc.

[JoeTheJuggler]

There's some great ones here: http://tinyurl.com/yb3fj3

A few examples:

* Exodus 35:2 – "2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."


* Deuteronomy 21:18-21 – "18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid."


* Leviticus 20:13 – "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."


* Deuteronomy 25:11-12 – "11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."


* Deuteronomy 20:10-16 – "10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. 16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes."

[PixyMisa]

* Deuteronomy 25:11-12 – "11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity."

You have to wonder how often this happened that they thought they needed to make a law about it...

[CapelDodger]

You have to wonder how often this happened that they thought they needed to make a law about it...
Just the once, if it happened to the man - I think we can safely assume that - who wrote the law.

[Loss Leader]

As has been stated above, Jews have distilled the Old Testament down to 613 laws that must be followed: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

You'll find that modern christianity recognizes almost none of them as binding. However, to be fair, modern Judaism discards about half of them. All of the laws having to do with animal sacrifices and the behavior of priests have been suspended until the rebuilding of the Great Temple.

N.B. I called Israel earlier this morning and found out that the rebuilding of the Great Temple has yet to even be put out to bid.

[brodski]

N.B. I called Israel earlier this morning and found out that the rebuilding of the Great Temple has yet to even be put out to bid.

Apparently there's an issue with getting planning permission, the neighbors keep objecting...

[CBVan]

Also, the Dome of the Rock is in the way. Such a bother!
Thank you all so much for the links - they have proven very useful. The debate I am engaged in is a three-way debate between a very devout sunni muslim, the daughter of either a born-again christian or an actual preacher (not sure on this part) and two or three atheists.
The title of the thread is "Religious Tolerance."
(no, I cannot post a link. It is a private forum, only for students of my class.)

[joobz]

Paul ditched the Old Covenant before he had the New Covenant well-defined, without, I suspect, appreciating the consequences. Do away with the import of actions and substitute one simple belief - "Jesus has saved me already" - and orgies are what I'd expect, but then I'm a worldly cynic. Paul was still thinking on his feet right up until the moment he was hoisted off them. I doubt the Early Church was anything like what he had in mind.

Nobody, of any religion, had a problem with slavery in those days. It was a recognised human condition. As is being female, but not all religions of the time assumed the subjugation of women. The Mediterranean ones did, and that's where Paul came from. If a society gave a voice to women it was regarded as a mark of barbarism.


So are you saying that the letters are amendments to the Bible's constitution to correct omissions that shouldn't have been made?

[RandFan]

http://www.evilbible.com/

D2011I've been harping on this of late. I was not familiar with this link. Thanks. I'll add it to my collection. Of course, there is something wrong with those who find evil in the bible. It's NOT the bible's fault and for goodness graciousness don't blame all that killing on god.

It was the people not god that did the killing.
Ok, the bible says that god ordered much of the killing but that's not necessarily true.
Oh, and yeah, god's chosen did kill a lot of people but hey, the people who god's chosen killed had it coming (this raises the question, why didn't god just protect his people to begin with).
Since it was before Christ had said anything about turning the other cheek then it was ok. Evil Bible (http://www.evilbible.com/)
In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.

[The Atheist]

Just curious - did the site specify those numbers?

[Antiquehunter]

On another note, I thought that the typical weasel argument given by some Xtians when faced with choosing to 'ignore' bits of the old testament is the passage where Jeebus allegedly said 'I came not to change the laws, but to enforce them' or words to this effect.

Basically - the Old testament laws stand.

(Not a bibble scholar, but its an argument I've heard.)

[Meadmaker]

There are two common varieties of Christian weaseling to get out of the fact that they are ignoring Old Testament commandments.

The first is that Jesus "fulfilled" the law. The laws related to any sort of ritual practice were allegedly put in place until God was ready to "complete" his instructions. e.g. "For now, don't eat cheeseburgers. I'll tell you the rest later." Then, when Jesus came along, "OK. The really important stuff is to believe in Jesus. That stuff about cheeseburgers was just temporary."

Another line that Christians use makes more sense, actually, but isn't used nearly as often. The commandments weren't actually given to the world, they were given to the Jews. Jesus, on the other hand, was for the whole world. So, under this theory, Jews who believed in Jesus were still bound by the Jewish law, but gentiles who believed in Jesus were not.

I think there are actually parts of the new testament that argue about this, but someone else will have to fill us in if they know the arguments.

[RandFan]

Just curious - did the site specify those numbers?I don't want to give away the ending. You'll have to follow the link. ;)