10 Commandments must go

[arcticpenguin]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-2857359,00.html

ATLANTA (AP) - A federal appeals court ruled Tuesday that a Ten Commandments monument the size of a washing machine must be removed from the Alabama Supreme Court building.

The 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals unanimously affirmed a ruling by a federal judge who said that the 2-ton granite monument, placed there by Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore, violates the constitutional separation of church and state.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-2857359,00.htmlI used to sit on the fence about this issue, but now I agree. There must not be any confusion between religious law, Christian in this case, and civil law. As far as the United States goes, the later takes presidence over the former.

[Dancing David]

Ther reason that the decision was made is partly that Moore has said it was for religous reasons that he put the monument there, in the middle of the night. Supposedly there is more on it than just the Ten Commandments.

[zakur]

ATLANTA (AP) - A federal appeals court ruled Tuesday that a Ten Commandments monument the size of a washing machine must be removed from the Alabama Supreme Court building.At first I thought it odd that they used this particular home appliance for this size comparison, but then what alternative analogies could they have used?

... the size of La-Z-Boy?
... a dishwasher?
... a clothes dryer
... two St. Bernard dogs?
... a juke box?
... a bison calf?
... a filing cabinet?
... Shemp's ego? ;)

A search in Google for the phrase "size of a washing machine" nets me 705 hits. Lots of references to old computer equipment, the Jarvik-7 artificial heart, and various space vehicles.

[EdipisReks]

Originally posted by zakur
At first I thought it odd that they used this particular home appliance for this size comparison, but then what alternative analogies could they have used?

... the size of La-Z-Boy?
... a dishwasher?
... a clothes dryer
... two St. Bernard dogs?
... a juke box?
... a bison calf?
... a filing cabinet?
... Shemp's ego? ;)

A search in Google for the phrase "size of a washing machine" nets me 705 hits. Lots of references to old computer equipment, the Jarvik-7 artificial heart, and various space vehicles.

a google image search gets you a tunnel, a T-Rex head, and a power generator of some sort.

[zakur]

Originally posted by EdipisReks
a google image search gets you a tunnel, a T-Rex head, and a power generator of some sort. Yeah, that T-Rex page (http://www.nimbacreations.com/Nimba%20trex/rexpage42.htm) is cool. "Washing machine" is in reference to the size of the power pack of the animatronic Rex.

[3-toed-sloth]

This is a step in the right direction.

[Drifterman]

How successful has disetablishment in the US been? The President seems to be in the thrall of Fundamentalist Christian evildoers, every politician who wants to get elected must proclaim belief in one deity or another, the number of churchgoers is far higher than in Europe, and 90% of the population believes in God.

From a pragmatic standpoint, wouldn't having an established church lead to the same (paradoxical) result as in England: plummeting church attendance and an almost complete erasure of religious buffonery from serious political discussions.

I personally feel that, although religious imagery has no place in a court of law, the actual effect of the separation of Church and State might be to force public officials to parade their religios credentials in an effort to win popularity.

[a_unique_person]

Good, I can get back worshipping my golden calf again.

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Good, I can get back worshipping my golden calf again. What size is it?

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Regnad Kcin
What size is it?
I'm guessing it's the size of a T-Rex head.

[tamiO]

Sweet Home Alabama...

Moore's information officer, Tom Parker, said the chief justice is studying the court's decision and consulting with his lawyers. He will issue a statement at a news conference at 11 a.m. today.

"This case is far from over, and an appeal will be taken to the U.S. Supreme Court," Parker said. "What the chief justice has done is certainly constitutional historically."

The preamble to the Alabama Constitution invokes "the favor and guidance of the Almighty God," and the purpose of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution "was to protect the freedom to worship God," Parker said.

source: http://al.com/news/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/105713736624910.xml

[Wile E. Coyote]

Although I am a staunch advocate of separation of church and state, I am not sure whether I agree with this decision. Unless the court was using the ten commandments as a baseline for their decision, I think a monument containing one of the most succint and ancient sets of laws is an appropriate decoration for a courthouse.

Looking beyond the religious entries in the list of ten, it is easy to see the historical significance of the ten commandments as one of the first collections of laws to have been used successfully by a civilization.

In this respect, the ten commandments are just as appropriate in a courthouse as would Hammurabi's code of laws or any other historically significant law-related monument.

It does not seem like the presence of an historical monument with religious origins is really affecting the effectiveness of the court system. Maybe this is a small battle that was not actually worth fighting.

[Dancing David]

Apparently Moore has some other religous comments on the monument. He says that his intent is religous, not legal.

[arcticpenguin]

I think this case (http://biz.yahoo.com/law/030602/9ae8fc214d391022a5f3092c69678736_1.html) was a good example of why all participants in the court system should be clear that they not mix their religious beliefs with their governmental tasks:

A death row inmate's chance for a long life was born again when a judge overturned his sentence, finding that jurors had brought Bibles to deliberations while insisting that God's law trumped Colorado's.

[tamiO]

Originally posted by Wile E. Coyote
Although I am a staunch advocate of separation of church and state, I am not sure whether I agree with this decision. Unless the court was using the ten commandments as a baseline for their decision, I think a monument containing one of the most succint and ancient sets of laws is an appropriate decoration for a courthouse.

Looking beyond the religious entries in the list of ten, it is easy to see the historical significance of the ten commandments as one of the first collections of laws to have been used successfully by a civilization.

In this respect, the ten commandments are just as appropriate in a courthouse as would Hammurabi's code of laws or any other historically significant law-related monument.

It does not seem like the presence of an historical monument with religious origins is really affecting the effectiveness of the court system. Maybe this is a small battle that was not actually worth fighting.

The monument does not just include the Ten Commandments. It includes the following, also:

"In God we trust."
-- National Motto, 1956

"Let it simply be asked, where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice?"
-- George Washington

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
-- Pledge of Allegiance, 1954

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?"
-- Thomas Jefferson

"The transcendent law of nature and of nature's God, which declares that the safety and happiness of society are the objects at which all political institutions aim and to which all such institutions must be sacrificed."
-- James Madison
(source: http://wsfa.com/Global/story.asp?S=421482&nav=0RdDGgK1 )



"The breadth of the Chief Justice's position is illustrated by his counsel's concession at oral argument that if we adopted his position, the Chief Justice would be free to adorn the walls of the Alabama Supreme Court's courtroom with sectarian religious murals and have decidedly religious quotations painted above the bench," the court said.

"Every government building could be topped with a cross, or a menorah, or a statue of Buddha, depending upon the views of the officials with authority over the premises. A cr碨e could occupy the place of honor in the lobby or rotunda of every municipal, county, state, and federal building. Proselytizing religious messages could be played over the public address system in every government building at the whim of the official in charge of the premises."

U.S. Circuit Judge Ed Carnes of Montgomery wrote the opinion, which said, "Given all of the evidence, including the chief justice's own words, we cannot see how a court could reach any other conclusion."

"Chief Justice Moore testified candidly that his purpose in placing the monument in the Judicial Building was to acknowledge the law and sovereignty of the God of the Holy Scriptures, and that it was intended to acknowledge `God's overruling power over the affairs of men.'"
(source: http://al.com/news/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/news/105713736624910.xml )

And after all that, I think maybe if it had been anyone except Moore and the reason for placing the monument there was to add to the collection of historical law, it might not have been such a big deal.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Wile E. Coyote


In this respect, the ten commandments are just as appropriate in a courthouse as would Hammurabi's code of laws or any other historically significant law-related monument.



Not sure if you are playing Devil's ( ? ) advocate here.....


When you ' look beyond the religious entries ', and consider the items that might make reasonable laws, I think you end up with about ' Three Commandments '.
While a couple of others might be good advice.. i.e. " Honor your Mother and Father ", making it a ' law ' seems a bit of a stretch...

Not to mention the fact, that we are talking about a building where ' the right to remain silent ' is just as important as ' thou shalt not steal ' ...


Do we have reason to believe that Hammurabi was a real person?

[whitefork]

Originally posted by Diogenes
Do we have reason to believe that Hammurabi was a real person? There are a lot of inscriptions extant.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/hamcode.html

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by Diogenes


Not sure if you are playing Devil's ( ? ) advocate here.....


When you ' look beyond the religious entries ', and consider the items that might make reasonable laws, I think you end up with about ' Three Commandments '.
While a couple of others might be good advice.. i.e. " Honor your Mother and Father ", making it a ' law ' seems a bit of a stretch...

Not to mention the fact, that we are talking about a building where ' the right to remain silent ' is just as important as ' thou shalt not steal ' ...


Do we have reason to believe that Hammurabi was a real person?

Well, after TamiO's post, I guess I can see why it should be removed.

However, I stand by my decision that the Ten Commandments displayed in a courthouse would not violate the separation of church and state as long as it was a decoration along the lines of historical law. This would also imply that other codes of law from different cultures and religions would be welcome.

Just because we do not understand or agree with the laws of those who went before us does not mean that we cannot cherish them as products of a different time.

The Ten Commandments, whether religious or not, are still a valid part of history. Jewish law was centered on them for millenia.

[c0rbin]

People in favor of the 10 commandments thing like to point out that our laws come from the Bible.

While the two might have some similarities, it is not true. Our law comes the Constitution.

[Frostbite]

Well where does the Constitution come from then?

[whitefork]

A healthy dose of John Locke's Second Treatise of Government, via a bunch of dead white guys sitting around in Philadelphia.

I'd be interested in a textual analysis of the Constitution showing points of origin in the Bible or other holy writ. Start with Article I and Leviticus.

[c0rbin]

Well where does the Constitution come from then?

From "enlightened" thinking.

The opposite of fundamentalism.

[Frostbite]

Originally posted by c0rbin


From "enlightened" thinking.

The opposite of fundamentalism.

No I mean really, where does it come from? I'm asking because I don't know.

[c0rbin]

It comes from www.google.com :D

Seriously, though, our Constitution was not a single effort, it was an iterative process.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Wile E. Coyote
........
Jewish law was centered on them for millenia.

Ironic, that a different bunch of people could embrace those laws, and use them as part of the justification for persecuting Jews and others..

Of course, the part of the country where Chief Justice Moore comes from, a bastion of tolerance and free thinking, certainly cant' be viewed in such a historical light..

[whitefork]

Originally posted by Frostbite
No I mean really, where does it come from? I'm asking because I don't know. Well, you have the Magna Carta, the works of Locke, other documents here: http://www.constitutioncenter.org/explore/OriginsoftheConstitution/FoundingDocuments/index.shtml
some of Montaigne's Essays, writings by Diderot, Kant, Montesquieu's Spirit of the Laws, and a bunch of other guys who made up the Enlightenment, the whole tradition of English civil law, John Adams Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and a lot of other sources.

And a couple of months of hard-fought compromises, most notably the Connecticut compromise which gave us a bicameral legislature (hence the license plate "The Constitution State"). It was a committee effort the likes of which may never be seen again.

[Dancing David]

Reading about the making of the Constitution is very interesting, they felt that history was going to judge them and so they tried really hard to be fair.

The had some great big fights over the same issues that we talk about today, especialy the north vs. the south and little vs big states, how much power to give the common folk.


The Ten Commandments have less to do with our laws than just about any european laws.

[Landis]

Which Ten Commandments are they talking about? When debating judge Moore's stone tablets, no one even brings up the fact that there are competing versions out there, protestant, catholic and jewish. If we allowed his set, maybe the county would have to allow the other two also. Here's a link to explain the differences.


http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm


______________________________________________



Which Ten Commandments?

First Tables of Stone (Ex. 20)
("which Moses didst break")

Second Tables of Stone (Ex. 34)
("the words that were on the first")


1. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me.

1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god).


2. You shall not make for yourself a graven image. You shall not bow down to them or serve them.

2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.


3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep in the month when the ear is on the corn.


4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

4. All the first-born are mine.


5. Honor your father and your mother.

5. Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.


6. You shall not kill.

6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.


7. You shall not commit adultery.

7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread.


8. You shall not steal.

8. The fat of my feast shall not remain all night until the morning.


9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

9. The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.


10. You shall not covet.

10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk.


Adapted from Microsoft Bookshelf 98

K. Budde, History of Ancient Hebrew Literature

__________________________________________________ _

mmmm mother's milk!!!

__________________________________________________ ;)

[TexasBEAST]

I've got so much to say about this topic, but not enough time to camp out on the computer!

For starters, the phrase "Ten Commandments" does not exist anywhere in the Bible. The passage that is usually translated that way, where Moshê ("Moses") is "rollin' like an avalanche, comin' down the mountain", uses the words "`Êser Duhbârim", which is more accurately translated as "Ten Matters/Subjects/Topics". The word "commandment" corresponds with the `Ibrith word "mitzvâh", which is not even used. So the language is all screwed up.

This is important theologically, because if you read the narrative in the book of Exodus, Moshê comes down the mountain after having a bunch of stuff dictated to him by the deity and then proceeds to immediately write then down on a scroll--the so called "Book of the Covenant". Moshê then places the scroll inside the Ark of the Covenant. But the stone tablets don't come along until several chapters later, and they contain a totally different set of instructions than what was in the scroll. Thus, the tablets didn't even contain the Ten Commandments!

Anyway, the 10C's were part of the JYishreh'Êli ("Israelite") "Holiness Code", which is hardly a shining example of human law for civil tranquility. It was a set of instructions designed to create as great of a difference between the JYishreh'Êlim ("Israelites") and their neighboring nations' peoples as possible. The `Ibrith commands were designed to be divisive and a challenge to the other peoples of the ancient near Middle East. That's not what our laws were supposed to be based on.

And if you just take the time to look at the 10C's, you can easily see that our government and laws aren't based on them in the slightest bit:

C1. "Don't have any other deity besides JYâhveh." (falsely translated as "the LORD")
--Um, no. The 1st Amendment guarantees you free exercise of religion, so you may worship any deity you want. At any rate, neither the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution for the United States of America, nor the US Code are predicated upon the prohibition of worshipping any other deity besides a certain "JYâhveh".:rolleyes:

C2. "Don't make any images of things in the sky, on the ground, or in the waters under the ground."
--Um, no. The 1A lets you make whatever images you want of whatever thing you want, as freedom of expression or free exercise of religion. Just look at all the statues of great and wonderful people we have here in the US--some commissioned from the earliest days of the Union.

(Ever notice the completely ridiculous self-contradictory irony of making a graven image of the Ten Commandments stone tablets???:roll: Kinda like those nuts who advocate the "National Day of Prayer" {"N-DOPe's"}, despite the book of Matthew's prohibition of public prayer!)

C3. "Don't misuse the name 'JYâhveh'."
--Uh, no. 1A guarantees freedom of speech.

C4. "Celebrate the 'Shâhbât' ("Sabbath"), because JYâhveh blessed that day."
--Does our country really prohibit people from working on Saturdays under penalty of being stoned to death?

C5. "Honor your parents so JYâhveh will give you stuff."
--As important as honoring parents is, is that really a foundation of our founding documents? And is our notion of honoring parents based on the espoused goal of landing some dope bling-bling from the divine sugar daddy?

This brings us to an interesting group of commandments. Surely none of the following were ever taken seriously by the Founders???
C10. "Don't covet."
C8. "Don't steal."
C6. "Don't murder.
--Do I seriously need to remind you of how the Founders "acquired" this bountiful land from the previous inhabitants? Or how much the people of the Southern states admired the strong hardy physiques of a certain other race of people, and what they did about it?

--Oh, that's right. The JYishreh'Êlim only applied the Torâh to themselves, and not to any other races or nationalities of people. "Thou shalt not murder"--ANYONE WHO LOOKS JUST LIKE YOU; otherwise, it's open season. I guess our country really was founded on the Ten Commandments after all!

That leaves us with:
C7. "Don't commit adultery."
C9. "Don't commit perjury."
--Sure, these are nice ideals which are reflected in our nation's laws, but they are hardly novel trademark notions of the Judeo-Christian scriptures!

More later.

[CFLarsen]

Marc (Berard) has an excellent article about this:

The 10 commandments are everything the United States are not.
By Marc Berard

There are many different battles across the United States of America concerning the posting of the 10 Commandments in public buildings/grounds. The posting is illegal as it violates the First Amendment's establishment of religion clause.
Read why... (http://www.skepticreport.com/tools/10command.htm)

[Yahweh]

JYâhveh

Oh joy. Half the people who spell my name are lucky if they can get it right the first time... now you done added a "J" and a funny looking "a" letter and would you just look at that... thats supposed to be a "w" not a "v". Sheesh.

[Yahweh]

I think the 10 Commandments should be removed. The United States emphasizes that although the primary religious faith in the nation is Christianity, the US will remain a secular nation.


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
- 1rst Amendment in the US Constitution Bill Of Rights

Although the government cannot restrict what religious beliefs one upholds, it cannot display the 10 Commandments which would give higher regard to Christianity over various other beliefs (including Secular Beliefs). I recognize that the wording is "make no law" but that does not suggest there are loopholes to propagate Christianity.

"the size of a washing machine"
... maybe people wouldnt be so cavalier about removing it if it did laundry?

[Landis]

Originally posted by Yahweh
I think the 10 Commandments should be removed. The United States emphasizes that although the primary religious faith in the nation is Christianity, the US will remain a secular nation.


The United States does not emphasize the primary religious faith in the nation is Christianity. Only Christians, and primarily Christian fundamentalist revisionist, do. Our government must refrain from emphasizing any one religious sect over any other.

As to the founding fathers, the first 6 presidents and Benjamin Franklin were all Deist not Theist, and this was before Charles Darwin. In the Treaty of Tripoli unanimously ratified by the entire Congress and signed into law by John Adams in 1797 expressly stated "the Unites States is in no way founded upon the Christian Religion".

[ceo_esq]

Bump, to encourage folks to participate in a related discussion thread called "Ten Commandments and legal tradition":

http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22874