We left our church

[Ruby]

I have loved and admired my Pastor due to his unique-ness and lack of "religiosity" and "charismania". He was one of a kind...that is, until he informed us that he had a special message from God that he was going to deliver to us all as a congregation. So, two weeks ago, on a Sunday morning, we sat and listened to this *message* from *God*.

Apparently, God has let him know that he has been doing things wrong as a Pastor and has built the church on the wrong foundation. He has not stressed paying tithes as he should, and not stressed people being involved in the church....amongst other things.

Plus, he has developed a little *secret society* of *elders* that he won't reveal to anyone.

We were very upset by this message. It was a total contradiction of everything he had ever preached in the past.

My hubby called our Pastor a few days after the message and told him that he could not believe he really heard from God and felt like it was just a convenient excuse. My hubby went on to say that he felt that Pastor was under some sort of strain.....which is why he is making changes in the church. Our Pastor did not take kindly to those words, although he was civil to my husband on the phone. Instead, my Pastor waited til the following Sunday service....this past Sunday, and blasted my hubby and me from the pulpit.

He did not use our names, but he brought up specific issues from his private phone conversation with my hubby and addressed them in church. He said such things as "If you don't like a word from God that I give, don't call to negotiate about it"......and ran on about not judging him in the flesh.

He said some more things to, but I can't recall everything. He knew he was safe to do that from the pulpit. It was unfair. It was a betrayal of trust.

He criticized and flat out mocked people for staying home sick. As I am absent a lot due to a painful irritable bowel and fibromyalgia, I felt he was speaking in part to me. He says the church is the place to come when you are sick...so you can get healed. If the church had ever demonstrated that it is a place where miraculous healing occurs, then perhaps more sick people would be there.

He now refuses to be questioned by anyone on this whole matter of all the changes he is making. He said how we should not even look at him as a man. We are to look at him on a Spiritual level. In other words, he is the god of that church, and we should obey.

He blamed everything on people who look in the flesh/natural and not in the Spiritual. It's only when we see in the spiritual that things are true and divine...according to him. It seems to me that looking in the *spiritual* means that you ignore facts and become brainwashed believing people are healed when they aren't, and believing that if you tithe and give above a tithe sometimes that God will *repay* you.

I used to feel safe in my church because I knew I was not judged or condemned if my social phobia or other physical ailments made it impossible for me to attend church. I had found a place where I could breathe and grow and make friends. This past Sunday morning I felt condemned. My hubby was livid, and nearly stood up and spoke out against what Pastor was saying.

So far, thirteen have left the church as a result of Pastor's new changes. Some of those people were dear friends with him, and were very active in the church. One couple he flat out refused to talk to. Another guy he had put in charge of leading Praise and worship and promised to let him in on his little *secret society/inner circle* of elders. When this guy asked a few questions about Pastor's new changes, our Pastor told him he could no longer lead Praise and worship, let alone be included in the *secret group*. This was quite a blow, and the guy and his wife left the church too.

Our church never has more than about thirty people present on Sunday mornings....it's very small. So, having thirteen leave really puts a dent in it. Having said that, our Pastor claimed this past Sunday that 90% of the congregation had spoken favorably about his *message from God*. That is such a crock of sh*t!!

Our Pastor is also making up new convenant certificates for everyone to sign and keep. That means they are agreeing to pay tithes....even if it puts them in the poor house, and it means they will show up to all services, and be involved in certain minisitries. My Pastor believes that only doing it this way will make it safe.

He's nuts!! It is not safe at all. It's scary. He talks like a dictator or a cult leader now. If I did not beleive n possession, I would say he was possessed.

He won't talk to us now...so we are writing a letter. We just want him to know that we feel betrayed.

I feel so hurt and frustrated over this whole thing. I don't want to ever go to church again. Church is Hell!!!!

Sorry to vent and rant!!! :(

[Loki]

Ruby,

Coming to a TV set near you "When good Pastors go bad..."

If I did not beleive in possession, I would say he was possessed.
I don't believe in possession either, but he certain sounds "possessed by his own importance".

Plus, he has developed a little *secret society* of *elders* that he won't reveal to anyone.
Okay, just back away slowly, and try not to make eye contact. Once you're out the door, turn and run like hell!

I feel so hurt and frustrated over this whole thing.
Let it go - at the end of the day, it's his loss, not yours.

I don't want to ever go to church again.
Hey, me neither!

[Landis]

Ruby, it looks like you have been given a great opportunity to move on and leave some of this nonsense behind. It is hard, however, to live without a sense of community and support which is why many people belong to a "church". If you should feel the need for a community, please check out the Unitarians or even a local Buddhist group.

I myself am a former Christian turned yogi turned agnostic turned atheist. It was a long difficult journey but at least I no longer feel like I am searching for anything.

[Star Of The Sea]

It must have taken a lot of courage to do what you did, Ruby. I hope you find a path that leads to happiness, either in a more sympathetic church, or in a life without religion.

take care
Luke

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Loki
[B]Ruby,

Coming to a TV set near you "When good Pastors go bad..."


I don't believe in possession either, but he certain sounds "possessed by his own importance".

Yes. He NEVER used to be that way. He was unassuming and down to earth and very warm and caring. He was one of us! Now he acts self-righteous and has exalted himself.


Okay, just back away slowly, and try not to make eye contact. Once you're out the door, turn and run like hell!

LOL. That's exactly what we did Sunday. We left as our Pastor started saying the closing prayer. We grabbed our kiddos out of their classes and got out the doors before anyone else. Once we got outside, I took a deep breath. I had been all clenched up in church.


Let it go - at the end of the day, it's his loss, not yours.

Yep...but I bet he sees it as our loss.:(

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Landis
Ruby, it looks like you have been given a great opportunity to move on and leave some of this nonsense behind. It is hard, however, to live without a sense of community and support which is why many people belong to a "church". If you should feel the need for a community, please check out the Unitarians or even a local Buddhist group.

I myself am a former Christian turned yogi turned agnostic turned atheist. It was a long difficult journey but at least I no longer feel like I am searching for anything.

Thanks! We have considered getting together in our home with the other church members who left sometimes to support each other.

I am just burned out and disillusioned with religious nonsense. I think it will take some time to get over this. Every church I have ever belonged to has turned out to be legalisitic and abusive.

My hubby grew up in an isolated religious cult community.....so he's really had his fill. He sees our Pastor setting himself up on a pedestool, the same way the leader of the cult did.

[Mr. Skinny]

Ruby,

Sorry to hear about the mental stress this is causing, but then again, sometimes it's a major event like this that makes us all take a second look at things.

From what little I know of you on the forum, this doesn't sound at all like what you want your religious connection to be about.

Keep us up to date. I'm curious as to what your thought processes will be in light of your pastor's change of direction.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Star Of The Sea
It must have taken a lot of courage to do what you did, Ruby. I hope you find a path that leads to happiness, either in a more sympathetic church, or in a life without religion.

take care
Luke

Thank you so much!!!:) :(

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Mr. Skinny
Ruby,

Sorry to hear about the mental stress this is causing, but then again, sometimes it's a major event like this that makes us all take a second look at things.

From what little I know of you on the forum, this doesn't sound at all like what you want your religious connection to be about.

Keep us up to date. I'm curious as to what your thought processes will be in light of your pastor's change of direction.

Thanks!! I am too upset to even face how I feel and think about my walk as a Christian. I don't pray. I don't believe in miraculous healing. I don't believe in paying church tithes. I don't believe in the rapture. I am pretty much a heretic!!!

[SFB]

Originally posted by Ruby So far, thirteen have left the church as a result of Pastor's new changes.


Maybe you, your husband, and the other thirteen could start that ideal church you were describing in another thread .... but I hope you don't ..... Were the others perhaps a touch skeptical on religion, but afraid to bare it? I wonder to what extent this can be used by you as an excuse to relieve yourself of the burdens of religion. Perhaps you could start a non-religious community with the others?

Why does community have to center around a church or religion? Can't you have non-religious events without a church? (Those are rhetorical.)

I'm just happy to see you understand this for the truth that it is.

Messages from a god, yeah right. Poor suckers that stay with him.......

Good Luck Ruby.

[Lord Kenneth]

Ruby, you should start looking at Christianity the same way you look at other religions... look at them with unbiased and objective eyes.

Does this stuff REALLY make sense to you? Is there any evidence of all their claims?

What, on the scale of truthfulness, sets Christianity apart from other religions that are predominant in other areas, such as Islam, Hinduism, Shintoism (sp?), etc...?

[AmateurScientist]

Ruby,

Sorry for your huge let down. You were wronged by this man and that church. It has nothing to offer you and every reason for you to stay away forever.

There are lots more secular groups focusing on various activities in which one can develop a sense of community. You have the right idea forming your own little social group from some of those former church members.

Don't give it a second thought. If that guy thinks he has a direct line to God, he's just delusional or a liar.

You sound intellectually strong and independent. That often leads to disillusionment with any church and the path to true free-thinking. Free thinking also often leads to a rejection of misplaced belief in a supernatural paternal figure who interferes in petty human affairs.

When you really think about it, religious prayer to a supernatural being is silliness and an abdication of responsibility for one's own acts and omissions. Nature, not the supernatural, constrains all of us. We are products or it and natural beings ourselves. It's useless and counterproductive to look to some external supernatural force for guidance or assistance.

Revel in your newfound independence. It can be scary sometimes, but it's much more revealing, consistent, and "empowering," as much as I hate to use that word.

You did the right thing.

AS

[Beleth]

Originally posted by Ruby
Thanks!! I am too upset to even face how I feel and think about my walk as a Christian. I don't pray. I don't believe in miraculous healing. I don't believe in paying church tithes. I don't believe in the rapture. I am pretty much a heretic!!! Any person that turns you off to religion that badly is a poor religious role model himself.

It's not you. It's not you. It's him.

He has changed course and you have not. He has changed course for the worse and you have not. God is still as He always has been. Stay on your course. When your Pastor looks up from his pulpit one day and sees nothing but his "secret society of elders" looking back at him, and then one day doesn't even see that, maybe he will get back on course.

Is there a higher council in your church you can raise this issue with? There usually is. You know, like a local-area administrative board. Something's happened to your Pastor; he needs serious help, and he's not going to be receptive to help coming from you or any of the other members of his flock. It'll have to come from higher up.

[SortingItAllOut]

Originally posted by Ruby
[B]Apparently, God has let him know that he has been doing things wrong as a Pastor and has built the church on the wrong foundation. He has not stressed paying tithes as he should, and not stressed people being involved in the church....amongst other things.


A question to ask yourself is "Why would God delay in delivering this message to your former pastor? Surely God would have known that the pastor's messages didn't include a strong influence on tithing and church involvement. Is it not possible that something else is motivating the pastor?

BTW, the old "God wants your money" and "you can volunteer your time" while presumably the pastor has a paid position (most do) screams pyramid scheme to me, albeit a very short pyramid. I've heard a hundred times the "there are 168 hours in a week" and "how many are you giving to god?" sermon. Of course, it has been conveniently delivered by a man that is *paid* to do the work that he wants me to do free of charge. This is after a two hour commute and 50 hours of work, not to mention a family and all that comes with that. That was one of the items that pushed me away from the church.


Plus, he has developed a little *secret society* of *elders* that he won't reveal to anyone.


What is their purpose? Why make them "secret"? Are they the CIAholes of the Pastor, out to keep tabs on the congregation? With such a small congregation, such formality/structure is suspect at best.


Instead, my Pastor waited til the following Sunday service....this past Sunday, and blasted my hubby and me from the pulpit.


Interestingly, this is in DIRECT CONTRADICTION to the teachings from the book he supposedly claims to believe. Doesn't it say to speak to the person with whom you have a problem directly and not to lay it out for public discussion?

Of course, how can he guilt you into falling into line without standing up at the pulpit and projecting an air of superiority?


He criticized and flat out mocked people for staying home sick. As I am absent a lot due to a painful irritable bowel and fibromyalgia, I felt he was speaking in part to me.


Always better to badger the congregation than to meet people where they are... that's what the Bible says Jesus did... right? ;-)

Best of luck - you are better off without that clown anyhow!


Take care,
Sort
:)

[UnrepentantSinner]

The suggestions of forming your own little house church is probably a good course of action. Maybe some of your fellow outcasts (how ironic at the number 13) could scout some of the other denominations to see if in a formal setting is really where you all need to be.

Maybe hanging out, having beer and natchos and discussing Galatians at the lake or at someone's house is more to the liking of some of you.

[SFB]

Originally posted by Beleth
Any person that turns you off to religion that badly is a poor religious role model himself.

It's not you. It's not you. It's him.
...


Hey Beleth:

It's religion.

Why don't you have a serious look (and I mean think about all that it implies) at AmateurScientist's signature. Kinda neat coming from Homer Simpson...

It reads:

"And what if we picked the wrong religion? Then each week we're just making God madder and madder."

Lord Kenneth's reply has some meaning to it too.

I have no intention of hi-jacking this thread. If you want to respond either start a new thread or PM me.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by SFB

Maybe you, your husband, and the other thirteen could start that ideal church you were describing in another thread .... but I hope you don't .....

I'm too upset to consider any more churches. I might consider all of us meeting on Sunday's to talk, give support, and make music. Most who left are fantastic musicians. We have two great guitarists. One great flutist. A fantastic young piano player. And three great voices!!!!


Were the others perhaps a touch skeptical on religion, but afraid to bare it?

To some degree, but not like me. Mainly, they are more liberal than fundamental...but still, not as liberal as I am. We are very close to one of those couples who left and had lunch with them Sunday to tell them what had happened at church. They had been in the church 21 years and our Pastor treated them like dirt.....no exaggeration! He pretty much ran them off. You see, they don't pay tithes because after years of study and talking to Rabbi's, have shown that tithing was never meant for the NT church. They have let their ideas slip out a bit in our church, and Pastor got very upset. Pastor only wants people in his church who will pay tithes!




Good Luck Ruby. [/B]

Thank you!!!!:D

[Lord Kenneth]

I myself wouldn't follow through with the recommendation that you join another church.

What's the point of church? The teachings are all claims, no evidence.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Lord Kenneth
Ruby, you should start looking at Christianity the same way you look at other religions... look at them with unbiased and objective eyes.

Does this stuff REALLY make sense to you? Is there any evidence of all their claims?

What, on the scale of truthfulness, sets Christianity apart from other religions that are predominant in other areas, such as Islam, Hinduism, Shintoism (sp?), etc...?

I wish I had studied these other religions enough to give a good answer. I suspect I would conclude there was little difference.

Nothing much in Christiniaty makes sense to me right now. I think people have screwed it all up. All I see are abusive situations from the church at large. A lot of Christians speak a language that I no longer comprehend or can even tolerate. It's gets on my nerves so easily.

And yet, I still believe in God. But on what level, I am no longer certain. My hubby too is re-evaluating his whole concept of God and wondering if it's not what he has always been taught.

We've got a lot to figure out!!!

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by Ruby


I wish I had studied these other religions enough to give a good answer. I suspect I would conclude there was little difference.

Nothing much in Christiniaty makes sense to me right now. I think people have screwed it all up. All I see are abusive situations from the church at large. A lot of Christians speak a language that I no longer comprehend or can even tolerate. It's gets on my nerves so easily.

And yet, I still believe in God. But on what level, I am no longer certain. My hubby too is re-evaluating his whole concept of God and wondering if it's not what he has always been taught.

We've got a lot to figure out!!!


First of all, if you want to view how factual Christianity or other religions are, look first at the evidence for their claims, not the actions of the priests or members of the religion.

Their actions do not determine what the action truth is. IF Christianity is indeed true, then the church needs reform. However, from what I've and many others have seen, there is no evidence for the claims presented.

If it's truth you desire, don't follow your heart. Follow your brain...

And realize that what you have been taught ever since you were young and very easily be wrong.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist
Ruby,

Sorry for your huge let down. You were wronged by this man and that church. It has nothing to offer you and every reason for you to stay away forever.

There are lots more secular groups focusing on various activities in which one can develop a sense of community. You have the right idea forming your own little social group from some of those former church members.

Don't give it a second thought. If that guy thinks he has a direct line to God, he's just delusional or a liar.

I think he's delusional. I think it's a result of being under stress due to his own financial troubles and the finances of the church. Plus, a lot of regular church goers have slacked of going. Some have backed out of ministries too.

You sound intellectually strong and independent. That often leads to disillusionment with any church and the path to true free-thinking. Free thinking also often leads to a rejection of misplaced belief in a supernatural paternal figure who interferes in petty human affairs.

I do like the idea of free-thinking.

When you really think about it, religious prayer to a supernatural being is silliness and an abdication of responsibility for one's own acts and omissions.

This is pretty much how I see it.

Nature, not the supernatural, constrains all of us. We are products or it and natural beings ourselves. It's useless and counterproductive to look to some external supernatural force for guidance or assistance.

This is definitely what I am feeling. I feel it's useless and pointless to pray. Nothing really changes......although Christians swear up and down it does.

Revel in your newfound independence. It can be scary sometimes, but it's much more revealing, consistent, and "empowering," as much as I hate to use that word.

You did the right thing.

AS

I do hope to enjoy life more....once I get over this pain and hurt and utter disappointment.

Thank you!!!

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Beleth
Any person that turns you off to religion that badly is a poor religious role model himself.

It's not you. It's not you. It's him.

He has changed course and you have not. He has changed course for the worse and you have not. God is still as He always has been. Stay on your course. When your Pastor looks up from his pulpit one day and sees nothing but his "secret society of elders" looking back at him, and then one day doesn't even see that, maybe he will get back on course.

Is there a higher council in your church you can raise this issue with? There usually is. You know, like a local-area administrative board. Something's happened to your Pastor; he needs serious help, and he's not going to be receptive to help coming from you or any of the other members of his flock. It'll have to come from higher up.

There is a Bishop...Bishop Kirby who is the one who ordained my Pastor. There is no council. Our Pastor has seen fit to prevent that. That means he is pretty much unaccountable to no one. Our friends, who left too, have thought of contacting Bishop Kirby, who might speak with Pastor, but Pastor does not have to do anything he says.

[Tricky]

This may sound odd coming from an atheist, Ruby, but I urge you not to be too hard on your former pastor. A man can have all the love of God in his heart you could ever ask for, but he still has to eat and have a place to live. Small congregation pastors are always living on the ragged edge of disaster, and I can understand (though not sympathize with) his self-righteous anger. In his mind, he was giving people the word of God and not getting anything... or at least not enough... in return.

Let's face it. Being a man of God is a job, like any other job, and sometimes you have to go to the board and ask for a raise.

There is also another possibility, a bit more disturbing. Ruby, it is obvious to all on these boards that your are undergoing an intellectual awakening. You are questioning things you never did before and doing a lot of soul searching. As obvious as this is to us, it must be equally obvious to your fellow worshipers that this is not the meek little Ruby they used to know.

I would not be surprised if word of your new "attitude" had reached the ears of your pastor, and it probably scared the heck out of him. If you should lead, or even inspire a revolt against the "standard teachings", it could be devastating to his career, and he would be best to cut his losses and get the "bad apple" out of the barrel before it infects the other with "dangerous ideas". This may sound evil and un-Christian, but, as I say, he has to think about his own livlihood. He may even convince himself that he is protecting others of the congregation.

But it is done. I urge you not to forget your lifetime of training, and find it in your heart to forgive him. He does not talk to God. He is just a human, like all of us. I hope that cutting these bonds will help you find a new path with fewer of those "walls" designed to keep you from wandering.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by SortingItAllOut


A question to ask yourself is "Why would God delay in delivering this message to your former pastor? Surely God would have known that the pastor's messages didn't include a strong influence on tithing and church involvement. Is it not possible that something else is motivating the pastor?

We are almost certain that there are reasons behind this supposed "word" from God. Pastor is definitely under a lot of financial strain.

BTW, the old "God wants your money" and "you can volunteer your time" while presumably the pastor has a paid position (most do) screams pyramid scheme to me, albeit a very short pyramid. I've heard a hundred times the "there are 168 hours in a week" and "how many are you giving to god?" sermon. Of course, it has been conveniently delivered by a man that is *paid* to do the work that he wants me to do free of charge. This is after a two hour commute and 50 hours of work, not to mention a family and all that comes with that. That was one of the items that pushed me away from the church.

What is nuts is that just a few weeks ago, our Pastor preached on how easily manipulated congregants can be. He even did a demonstration to prove it. He said he would borrow money from a bank before he asked us from money. Now, this past Sunday, he told a story how years ago he had decided he could not afford to pay tithes and was going to stop. Then, he claims that God spoke to him and said since he had thought to stop paying tithes, he was now going to pay double tithes for six months. He says his wife came to him and said God has said the same thing to her. Talk about manipulation. The message there was that we had better not think about not paying tithes as God might make us pay twice the amount.

That's absurd. We stopped paying tithes ages ago and no voice from heaven told us to start paying double. Our friends have not paid tithes for years, and nothing bad has happened to them, nor has God asked them to pay tithes.


What is their purpose? Why make them "secret"? Are they the CIAholes of the Pastor, out to keep tabs on the congregation? With such a small congregation, such formality/structure is suspect at best.

Yes, it is. Our Pastor says he does not tell us who the elders are due to not wanting us to feel jealous!!!! LOL!!!!! That is such a cop-out. I am sure that those who are *elders* are just *yes men*. Our Pastor has been in the habit of ordaining total idiots to be pastors/ministers. One of them, he has put in charge of a lot of things including the mens ministry. Some of the men, including my husband, would not even go to the mens ministry due to who was put in charge.

Interestingly, this is in DIRECT CONTRADICTION to the teachings from the book he supposedly claims to believe. Doesn't it say to speak to the person with whom you have a problem directly and not to lay it out for public discussion?

Of course, how can he guilt you into falling into line without standing up at the pulpit and projecting an air of superiority?


Always better to badger the congregation than to meet people where they are... that's what the Bible says Jesus did... right? ;-)

Best of luck - you are better off without that clown anyhow!


Take care,
Sort
:) [/B]

Thank you!!!

[Ruby]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
The suggestions of forming your own little house church is probably a good course of action. Maybe some of your fellow outcasts (how ironic at the number 13) could scout some of the other denominations to see if in a formal setting is really where you all need to be.

Maybe hanging out, having beer and natchos and discussing Galatians at the lake or at someone's house is more to the liking of some of you.

That sounds tempting! Funny thing is, all of us who left, are wine lovers!!! So, we'd have some Zinfandel and cabernet and maybe some coronas and just party!!:D

[Tez]

Ruby, the road toward apostasy is tortuous to walk, and I suspect you will walk it, as most do, somewhat erratically. People at both ends of the road will look at you and be confused as to why you're not heading toward them - from their perspective you seem to be so close. If you're like me, then at some point your mind will get to the end of the road first; your soul will still be clinging to things lying along the road. Releasing those things may take many, many years - especially where loved ones are concerned. In fact, you may well lead different people to think you're at different points on the road; this is normal. Only you will know approximately where you are.

Is it worth it? Well, my mind says yes...

[Yahzi]

Ruby
I'm sorry for you and your husband. It's not fair that you should lose something good, and I am sure it is frightening to watch someone you used to know turn into a raving lunie.

Just walk away from this guy. If you still want to go to church, find a soup kitchen or someplace that you can volunteer. I'm pretty sure the big guy would rather have you spend a few hours a week helping out, rather than sitting on your butt listening to a dingbat.

[Brown]

Ruby, I just read your initial post. You have my sympathy.

I wish I could say that your experience is uncommon or unusual. I am aware of several other church members that could tell similar stories. The problem often starts with one person being so cocksure that he knows the will of God, that he sees no room for discussion, no room for compromise, no possibility that he might be in error.

Often the church breaks apart as a result. Lots of feelings get hurt unnecessarily. There are often charges exchanged that the opposing side will go to Hell merely for disagreeing. This dyanamic can explain why some rural areas have several churches... people can't get along with one another and go off and form their own church.

It was my fortune to intimately witness a spectacular meltdown of a church, in which most of the elders sought to control the church. They insisted upon retaining a minister who would go along with whatever the elders wanted, but who everyone knew was a "dim bulb." All dissent was crushed. Anyone who did not agree with the elders' party line (including at least one dissident elder) were summarily kicked out of the church for being "factious." About one-third of the members were summarily excluded from a church that they helped build (and for some, was the centerpiece of their lives). And what was the burning question that led to this meltdown? It was this: "Is baptism by sprinkling legitimate?"

And some pastors will privately mention a dirty little secret: some clergy go "around the bend." They lose a grip on reality. Usually they lose members of the congregation, too. It's possible that you witnessed this phenomenon in action. If the church is a hierarchical church, chances are the hierarchy will correct the problem... eventually. Getting rid of nutty clergy takes years to do, and usually the nut does so much damage that it is hard to find someone who wants to replace him!

My reaction: You left your church? Good for you! Don't regret your decision!

[Trish]

Ruby,

Sounds as though Church was a support mechanism for you. I'm trully sorry to see that go for you through all your troubles. Look to your friends and family for that support.

Choosing not to go to church and lose the community in which you felt secure is difficult, but doable. Church is not necessary to your personal faith if you choose to make that so. If you choose to walk away from your faith, your friends will make a difference. But, expect that some of your friends will not understand the change you've chosen to make in life.

[thaiboxerken]

How do you know that he really didn't talk to "God"?

I guess you will only believe "God's" word, if you agree with it, eh?;)

[triadboy]

Ruby,

Sorry to hear about your church, but now might be the best time to examine the facts of the religion.

Read:

The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read (a red-covered compilation book that is wonderful)

Asimovs Guide to the Bible

Anything by Joseph Campbell

[Yahweh]

Hey, you left your church for the right reasons. A friend of mine said he, his wife, and kids left their church because "It allowed women to become pastors" or something to that effect.

I dont believe in god so I dont understand the importance of church. I wouldnt think absence from church would bar you from the pearly gates of heaven.

A person who criticizes and mocks others for staying home sick... not exactly a humanitarian is he. Maybe they just werent "sick enough" for his tastes.

[Yahweh]

Plus, he has developed a little *secret society* of *elders* that he won't reveal to anyone.
Homer Simpson had a similar experience...

[Tony]

Do what I did, get arrested @ church. They are sure to not want you back after that. :D

[Cinorjer]

I'd urge you to talk to the Bishop, or anyone else in the church in a position to step in. You don't say what particular church you attend, but it doesn't seem like it's one that gives the members of the church any authority to run their own church or vote on their ministers. If that were the case, you should contact the church board. But it would still help if you enlisted the other members who feel as you do to sign a petition to present to the Bishop.

Every church (except for lone charasmatic groups) has some sort of heirachy and a council of ministers. The man sounds like he needs help. Your fellow churchgoers certainly need help in dealing with this man.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Ruby,

I think some very good points have been made here. I would like to add one of my own, though.

In our prior discussion, you indicated that one of your reasons for being a Christian was your need to have answers to those tough philosophical questions. It seems to me that, for a while, this Pastor was giving you answers that you were comfortable with, and now he is giving you answers you don't like.

I would hope this would reveal to you the arbitrariness of this approach. If you feel justified in accepting, or rejecting, the answers he gives you, based on whether you like them or not, then why not just cut out the middle-man, and make up your own answers?

Of course the answer is probably that you realize that if you just make up the answers yourself, then they are just fantasy, and not real answers. But that is the point I am trying to make here. If you really considered somebody, be it your Pastor, or the Church, or the Bible, or whatever, to be a reliable source of answers, then you would not reject the answers they give you just because you don't like them. On the other hand, if you do not consider them reliable sources, then it is not rational to accept their answers just because you do like them, either.

I would recommend that you stop looking for somebody to answer these questions for you, and instead try contemplating the questions for yourself. You may find that many of the questions you have been conditioned to feel are so important, are really meaningless. You may also find that many of the questions which you have always considered to be spiritual in nature, are really just philosophical, and can be answered without any appeal to supernatural agencies or mythology.

In particular, I would suggest you try reading up on some actual philosophy (as opposed to philosophical theological apologetics), and specifically, check out secular humanism. You may find that this philosophical system is more in tune with your own values than Christianity is, and it has the added bonus of not requiring you to adopt any metaphysical or supernatural beliefs.

Remember, finding answers is easy. Determining whether your answer is the right one or not, is hard. And that is something that no religion can provide.

Dr. Stupid

[Diamond]

Seems like paranoia and early stage schizophrenia to me. If it mattered, I'd have a clinical psychiatrist attend a service.

You made the right choice, Ruby, as he's clearly becoming unglued. No person with a medical condition should have to attend church no matter what...that's craziness talking. Its also a sign of paranoia that the pastor should bring up private conversations in a sermon in order to silence (what he sees as) dissent.

I hope you find the right church ( I could recommend Unitarians but I guess that's not your style). In the meantime, don't give in to any false guilt in the matter. You and your husband did absolutely the right thing.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Ruby
I have loved and admired my Pastor due to his unique-ness and lack of "religiosity" and "charismania". He was one of a kind...that is, until he informed us that he had a special message from God that he was going to deliver to us all as a congregation. So, two weeks ago, on a Sunday morning, we sat and listened to this *message* from *God*.

Apparently, God has let him know that he has been doing things wrong as a Pastor and has built the church on the wrong foundation. He has not stressed paying tithes as he should, and not stressed people being involved in the church....amongst other things.

Plus, he has developed a little *secret society* of *elders* that he won't reveal to anyone.

We were very upset by this message. It was a total contradiction of everything he had ever preached in the past.

...

He's nuts!! It is not safe at all. It's scary. He talks like a dictator or a cult leader now. If I did not beleive n possession, I would say he was possessed.

He won't talk to us now...so we are writing a letter. We just want him to know that we feel betrayed.

I feel so hurt and frustrated over this whole thing. I don't want to ever go to church again. Church is Hell!!!!

Sorry to vent and rant!!! :(

Well Ruby, since you ask for opinions, I will give you mine.

Your pastor is not nuts, he is dying.

Judging by what has happened (the anger, the egotism, the personal connection with god, the demand for public support, and so on) and that this has happened so suddenly, I would say that he has suffered some sort of stroke or may have a brain tumor because one of the symptoms of these types of things is an abrupt personality change.

If I were you, I would not deal with him directly since that will not work, because where he is at you will never be able to reach him and it will just make a bad situation worse. It is easy for me to say of course, but if you still want to help then find someone that both of you can trust and who can be discreet about your role, and get the pastor in for a full medical exam as soon as possible.

Good luck!

[Darwin]

Be strong,whatever you come up with.

[wollery]

Hi Ruby,
first let me offer my condolences for what must be a very difficult situation for you. I know that faith and worshipping in a familiar place are very important to people, so it must be a terrible experience to have your church so radically altered in so short a time that you have had to leave.
However, I'd like to offer you another view of what could be happening.

It could be that your pastor has had a crisis of faith that has brought on feelings of guilt and an over-reaction to these feelings.
As an example - I had a friend at University who was a liberal christian, she went to church every sunday but never evangelised or moralised. We had some really interesting discussions about religion and faith in general (I'm agnostic btw) because she was fully prepared to listen and accept other views.
Then her father died suddenly, they had been very close, and she had a crisis of faith. She couldn't understand how the God she worshipped could let her down so badly. After she came back from the funeral she was very quiet and introverted for a while. When I eventually managed to get to talk to her I found that she had changed completely. She had decided that her father's death had been a punishment because she hadn't been following "the word of God". She'd gone completely off the deep end.

It may not sound that similar a situation, but maybe the financial situation you mentioned left you pastor feeling abandoned by God, after all He should take care of his houses of worship shouldn't he? This could have led to him seeing it as a punishment from God for not preaching the way he should.

I know that this is just speculation, but I hope that my example shows how people can completely lose perspective without any ulterior motives or loss of sanity (at least not in the clinical sense).
If I were you I think I'd go and talk to a minister from another church, or even a totally different faith to get their opinion (I've found that most Rabbi's and catholic priests that I've talked to have been fairly balanced). They'll best understand how the pressures of the job affect people, and hopefully give you some perspective on the whole thing.

Best wishes for the future.

[arcticpenguin]

Ruby,

Congratulations on being able to recognize that things were going bad and having the courage to get out. There's no point in waiting for them to start passing out the kool-aid.

Don't be hasty in making decisions about your future religious affiliations. I have my own (lack of) beliefs, but I won't try to push them on you. I will point out that if you start your own church, there are some definite tax advantages.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Tricky
This may sound odd coming from an atheist, Ruby, but I urge you not to be too hard on your former pastor. A man can have all the love of God in his heart you could ever ask for, but he still has to eat and have a place to live. Small congregation pastors are always living on the ragged edge of disaster, and I can understand (though not sympathize with) his self-righteous anger. In his mind, he was giving people the word of God and not getting anything... or at least not enough... in return.

Although I don't believe in paying "tithes", I did give to my church. My hubby and I bought all the video equipment and gave a lot of money. I don't think there is anything wrong in a church collecting "tithes and offerings". What I do think is wrong is using manipulation tactics to get people to pay. Our Pastor has a another man take care of the "giving message" and prayer. Each time he asks us to take our "seed" (AKA. money) and have our entire family put our hands on it as he prays. This will somehow magically make us rich!!!!!


There is also another possibility, a bit more disturbing. Ruby, it is obvious to all on these boards that your are undergoing an intellectual awakening. You are questioning things you never did before and doing a lot of soul searching. As obvious as this is to us, it must be equally obvious to your fellow worshipers that this is not the meek little Ruby they used to know.

Except for one couple, no one else knows all that has been going with me. I never felt I could open to any of them. I'd get all the pat Christian answers and have people really worried. The one couple who does know are really cool and understanding....and liberal too. They were the first ones to leave after our Pastor's little message from God.

Thanks for your post!!

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Tez
Ruby, the road toward apostasy is tortuous to walk, and I suspect you will walk it, as most do, somewhat erratically. People at both ends of the road will look at you and be confused as to why you're not heading toward them - from their perspective you seem to be so close. If you're like me, then at some point your mind will get to the end of the road first; your soul will still be clinging to things lying along the road. Releasing those things may take many, many years - especially where loved ones are concerned. In fact, you may well lead different people to think you're at different points on the road; this is normal. Only you will know approximately where you are.

Hopefully! As for now, I am clueless where I stand.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Yahzi
Ruby
I'm sorry for you and your husband. It's not fair that you should lose something good, and I am sure it is frightening to watch someone you used to know turn into a raving lunie.

Just walk away from this guy. If you still want to go to church, find a soup kitchen or someplace that you can volunteer. I'm pretty sure the big guy would rather have you spend a few hours a week helping out, rather than sitting on your butt listening to a dingbat.

:)

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Brown
Ruby, I just read your initial post. You have my sympathy.

I wish I could say that your experience is uncommon or unusual. I am aware of several other church members that could tell similar stories. The problem often starts with one person being so cocksure that he knows the will of God, that he sees no room for discussion, no room for compromise, no possibility that he might be in error.

Yep. These are the same sort of reason why I left my previous two churches.

Often the church breaks apart as a result. Lots of feelings get hurt unnecessarily. There are often charges exchanged that the opposing side will go to Hell merely for disagreeing.

The first church I left, which is one of the most legalistic church org's. on the face of the planet, definitely believed I was headed for Hell after I left. The Pastor's wife told me I was "deceived in my heart".

It was my fortune to intimately witness a spectacular meltdown of a church, in which most of the elders sought to control the church. They insisted upon retaining a minister who would go along with whatever the elders wanted, but who everyone knew was a "dim bulb." All dissent was crushed. Anyone who did not agree with the elders' party line (including at least one dissident elder) were summarily kicked out of the church for being "factious." About one-third of the members were summarily excluded from a church that they helped build (and for some, was the centerpiece of their lives). And what was the burning question that led to this meltdown? It was this: "Is baptism by sprinkling legitimate?"

That is so nuts!!

And some pastors will privately mention a dirty little secret: some clergy go "around the bend." They lose a grip on reality. Usually they lose members of the congregation, too. It's possible that you witnessed this phenomenon in action. If the church is a hierarchical church, chances are the hierarchy will correct the problem... eventually. Getting rid of nutty clergy takes years to do, and usually the nut does so much damage that it is hard to find someone who wants to replace him!

Unfortunately, there is no hierarchy in our church. Our Pastor is totally in charge.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Trish
Ruby,

Sounds as though Church was a support mechanism for you. I'm trully sorry to see that go for you through all your troubles. Look to your friends and family for that support.

Choosing not to go to church and lose the community in which you felt secure is difficult, but doable. Church is not necessary to your personal faith if you choose to make that so. If you choose to walk away from your faith, your friends will make a difference. But, expect that some of your friends will not understand the change you've chosen to make in life.

Thanks! My sole reason for being in church was for the social aspect....and because my little girl loved Sunday school. I expect to never hear from most of my friends again....:(

[Ruby]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
How do you know that he really didn't talk to "God"?

I guess you will only believe "God's" word, if you agree with it, eh?;)

I expect he did talk to God, I just don't know if what he heard in reply was really from God.:confused:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by triadboy
Ruby,

Sorry to hear about your church, but now might be the best time to examine the facts of the religion.

Read:

The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read (a red-covered compilation book that is wonderful)

Asimovs Guide to the Bible

Anything by Joseph Campbell

Thanks! I am reading so many books right now that I don't have time for more, but will keep these in mind.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Ruby

Thanks! My sole reason for being in church was for the social aspect....and because my little girl loved Sunday school. I expect to never hear from most of my friends again....:(
Then maybe you should reconsider your definition of "friends".

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Homer Simpson had a similar experience...

:D :D

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Tony
Do what I did, get arrested @ church. They are sure to not want you back after that. :D

Oh my goodness!! How did that happen? You don't have to tell if you don't want.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Cinorjer
I'd urge you to talk to the Bishop, or anyone else in the church in a position to step in. You don't say what particular church you attend, but it doesn't seem like it's one that gives the members of the church any authority to run their own church or vote on their ministers. If that were the case, you should contact the church board. But it would still help if you enlisted the other members who feel as you do to sign a petition to present to the Bishop.

Every church (except for lone charasmatic groups) has some sort of heirachy and a council of ministers. The man sounds like he needs help. Your fellow churchgoers certainly need help in dealing with this man.

My church was a "lone charasmatic" church!!! The Bishop ordained my Pastor, but does not have any say so otherwise. There is the possibility that he could convince the Pastor to back down from these new changes...but that's about all. The elders...who are secret to everyone....were chosen by our Pastor are under him. He answers to no one!! :mad: :(

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat
Ruby,

I think some very good points have been made here. I would like to add one of my own, though.

In our prior discussion, you indicated that one of your reasons for being a Christian was your need to have answers to those tough philosophical questions. It seems to me that, for a while, this Pastor was giving you answers that you were comfortable with, and now he is giving you answers you don't like.

I would hope this would reveal to you the arbitrariness of this approach. If you feel justified in accepting, or rejecting, the answers he gives you, based on whether you like them or not, then why not just cut out the middle-man, and make up your own answers?

Of course the answer is probably that you realize that if you just make up the answers yourself, then they are just fantasy, and not real answers. But that is the point I am trying to make here. If you really considered somebody, be it your Pastor, or the Church, or the Bible, or whatever, to be a reliable source of answers, then you would not reject the answers they give you just because you don't like them. On the other hand, if you do not consider them reliable sources, then it is not rational to accept their answers just because you do like them, either.

I would recommend that you stop looking for somebody to answer these questions for you, and instead try contemplating the questions for yourself. You may find that many of the questions you have been conditioned to feel are so important, are really meaningless. You may also find that many of the questions which you have always considered to be spiritual in nature, are really just philosophical, and can be answered without any appeal to supernatural agencies or mythology.

In particular, I would suggest you try reading up on some actual philosophy (as opposed to philosophical theological apologetics), and specifically, check out secular humanism. You may find that this philosophical system is more in tune with your own values than Christianity is, and it has the added bonus of not requiring you to adopt any metaphysical or supernatural beliefs.

Remember, finding answers is easy. Determining whether your answer is the right one or not, is hard. And that is something that no religion can provide.

Dr. Stupid

Thanks for your good suggestions. I am just trying to breathe for now.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Diamond
Seems like paranoia and early stage schizophrenia to me. If it mattered, I'd have a clinical psychiatrist attend a service.

You made the right choice, Ruby, as he's clearly becoming unglued. No person with a medical condition should have to attend church no matter what...that's craziness talking. Its also a sign of paranoia that the pastor should bring up private conversations in a sermon in order to silence (what he sees as) dissent.

I hope you find the right church ( I could recommend Unitarians but I guess that's not your style). In the meantime, don't give in to any false guilt in the matter. You and your husband did absolutely the right thing.

Thank you!!!!:cool:

[Brown]

Originally posted by Ruby
That is so nuts!!This is just the tip of the iceberg. The entire story (it would take about an hour to tell it from beginning to end) is filled with nuttiness. As for the question of whether baptism by sprinkling was legitimate, all of the elders except one believed that the Bible firmly settled the matter. The answer was "no," case closed, end of discussion.

The dissenting elder's position was: "I agree with you that baptism by immersion is the correct procedure, but I don't think that the Bible settles the question definitively." This "disagreement" enraged the other elders, who took a secret vote among themselves and decided to kick this dissenting elder out of the church. When some members of the congregation questioned the elders' action, these members were also threatened with being kicked out.

Hollywood would never make a movie with a plot this unbelievable. And yet it actually happened. The peace of God which passeth all understanding abandoned this little church, and its members basically went to war against each other over doctrinal matters that ranged from the trivial to the absurd.

As for a hierarchical church: A hierarchical church is a church that has a hierarchy of authority, with superintendents, bishops, popes, etc. having the responsibility to oversee and correct the member churches and their pastors. Not all churches are hierarchical.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Crossbow

Well Ruby, since you ask for opinions, I will give you mine.

Your pastor is not nuts, he is dying.

Judging by what has happened (the anger, the egotism, the personal connection with god, the demand for public support, and so on) and that this has happened so suddenly, I would say that he has suffered some sort of stroke or may have a brain tumor because one of the symptoms of these types of things is an abrupt personality change.

This sounds like a statement that my hubby made. He says that my Pastor is coming out with all this stuff because he knows his time is short!!

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Darwin
Be strong,whatever you come up with.

Thank you. I am trying to be strong!:(

[Ruby]

Originally posted by wollery
Hi Ruby,
first let me offer my condolences for what must be a very difficult situation for you. I know that faith and worshipping in a familiar place are very important to people, so it must be a terrible experience to have your church so radically altered in so short a time that you have had to leave.
However, I'd like to offer you another view of what could be happening.

It could be that your pastor has had a crisis of faith that has brought on feelings of guilt and an over-reaction to these feelings.
As an example - I had a friend at University who was a liberal christian, she went to church every sunday but never evangelised or moralised. We had some really interesting discussions about religion and faith in general (I'm agnostic btw) because she was fully prepared to listen and accept other views.
Then her father died suddenly, they had been very close, and she had a crisis of faith. She couldn't understand how the God she worshipped could let her down so badly. After she came back from the funeral she was very quiet and introverted for a while. When I eventually managed to get to talk to her I found that she had changed completely. She had decided that her father's death had been a punishment because she hadn't been following "the word of God". She'd gone completely off the deep end.

It may not sound that similar a situation, but maybe the financial situation you mentioned left you pastor feeling abandoned by God, after all He should take care of his houses of worship shouldn't he? This could have led to him seeing it as a punishment from God for not preaching the way he should.

I know that this is just speculation, but I hope that my example shows how people can completely lose perspective without any ulterior motives or loss of sanity (at least not in the clinical sense).
If I were you I think I'd go and talk to a minister from another church, or even a totally different faith to get their opinion (I've found that most Rabbi's and catholic priests that I've talked to have been fairly balanced). They'll best understand how the pressures of the job affect people, and hopefully give you some perspective on the whole thing.

Best wishes for the future.

You could very well be right. Our Pastor definitely feels that he had been saying things wrong and not putting enough stress on other things. He feel certain that God is telling him to make these changes in order to put things right.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
Ruby,

Congratulations on being able to recognize that things were going bad and having the courage to get out. There's no point in waiting for them to start passing out the kool-aid.

Don't be hasty in making decisions about your future religious affiliations. I have my own (lack of) beliefs, but I won't try to push them on you. I will point out that if you start your own church, there are some definite tax advantages.

:D Thanks! I am too hurt and angry to think about going to another church or exploring other religions or anything. Just need to breathe!:)

[Ruby]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

Then maybe you should reconsider your definition of "friends".

Yep!:(

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Brown
This is just the tip of the iceberg. The entire story (it would take about an hour to tell it from beginning to end) is filled with nuttiness. As for the question of whether baptism by sprinkling was legitimate, all of the elders except one believed that the Bible firmly settled the matter. The answer was "no," case closed, end of discussion.

The dissenting elder's position was: "I agree with you that baptism by immersion is the correct procedure, but I don't think that the Bible settles the question definitively." This "disagreement" enraged the other elders, who took a secret vote among themselves and decided to kick this dissenting elder out of the church. When some members of the congregation questioned the elders' action, these members were also threatened with being kicked out.

Hollywood would never make a movie with a plot this unbelievable.

It would make for quite an interesting movie if they did.

As for a hierarchical church: A hierarchical church is a church that has a hierarchy of authority, with superintendents, bishops, popes, etc. having the responsibility to oversee and correct the member churches and their pastors. Not all churches are hierarchical.

Right. There are pros and cons with either way you go...whether a church with a hierarchy or one without.

[Trish]

Originally posted by Ruby


Thanks! My sole reason for being in church was for the social aspect....and because my little girl loved Sunday school. I expect to never hear from most of my friends again....:(

Ruby,

Children adjust. My daughter is 13 and sulking right now because we moved at the end of the school year. She'll make friends and adjust to her new situation. As for your friends, find new friends if necessary. Those who care for you as you are, not as they perceive you to be.

When I walked away from church, I esentially walked away from everyone I knew. The friends I've made since, have been a great help to me in the past few years. Even to allowing me to move in with them when things became unbearable where I was. Esentially, I ran, and haven't looked back.

The stress of trying to stay somewhere for your child would eventually become so weighty that you'd be affected and in turn so would your daughter. I allowed my daughter to live with my brother and his wife when my father was diagnosed with cancer in 2001 and I moved in with my mother to help her care for my father in the home. I thought, at the time, that the offer for my daughter was the best thing for her. I'd been laid off a year and a half earlier and had lost my health insurance. She would finally have insurance again, and better than I'd had before, her school system would be better than the areas I could afford to live in. Things seemed wonderful. Then last year my brother decided to tell me that I allowed her dress like an 18 yo whore, threaten me, kicked my daughter out of their home, and a whole other slew of things.

I allowed her to go to church with my mother, she'd lived with my parents until she was 5. In part because I was in the Marines and then until I had a stable home for her and finished school. Shortly after my father died, my daughter decided to stop going to church. My mother threatened my daughter with kicking her out of the house if she didn't go to church with her. My kid is strong willed and still refuses to speak with her grandmother over this issue.

This is just in the last 10 months that this occured. Things do get better. Your daughter will make new friends, it's important that she be allowed to visit those friends that are still allowed to see her, despite your situation with your church. Also, take her where there are other children her age, from all walks of life, she's more likely to have a more rounded appreciation for people if she's encouraged to make friends with people of different backgrounds, rather than a few that are being raised with similiar ideaologies.

For example, my daughters best friend is jewish. She attended temple with her for her Bat Mitsvah (sp?). It was an experience that she would not otherwise have appreciated if she were only surrounded by those who shared her faith/lack of faith. She thoroughly enjoyed the experience, though it doesn't affect her personal view on god. Her friends are accepting of her atheism/agnosticism. She has better friends I think because they do accept her for her differences rather than her similarities.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Ruby


This sounds like a statement that my hubby made. He says that my Pastor is coming out with all this stuff because he knows his time is short!!

Not to be picky, but what I am saying is that your pastor sounds quite ill and that he does not know it (due to his depleted condition).

[justsaygnosis]

It's dumbfounding how ministers become this arrogant.
Whatever happened to
"the one who would be greatest shall act as the least?"
If a minister is properly oriented they should be ministering so as to make the necessity of their function obsolete.
This behavior is no different than a teacher teaching so as to enslave his pupils to his disciplines rather than to facilitate their growth and expansion.
When one has little to offer it's best to maintain the nothingness of their doctrine veiled in mystery and fear.
You and your husband will be fine; social beings always manage to gather a community.

[Finella]

Ruby,

My heart is aching for you -- I am saddened to hear of this happening to your church, since you have often spoken of it so fondly. I am also saddened to hear of this happening to you and your husband -- whatever caused this pastor to suddenly turn on you both, it's definitely hurtful to be betrayed like that.

What I find disheartening here in these responses to your situation is the number of appeals to you to give up your faith simply because you are questioning and facing this terrible circumstance. I find this in poor taste, really. Yet at the same time I am compelled to assure you that there are really wonderful churches out there who share your beliefs and can help you grow as an individual. Christians have always questioned and wandered and grown in their faith for ages.

So maybe that makes my post in poor taste, too, but I do want to give you another view - just my view.

It's too soon to think of new churches, I agree. I think your idea of meeting with your friends who have also left the church for support is wise. I wish you all the best -- do keep us posted.
:rub:

(I just had to use that emoticon -- hope you don't mind!!)

----,---'--{@

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Ruby


I expect he did talk to God, I just don't know if what he heard in reply was really from God.:confused:

Is it because you don't agree with the advice? I mean, is it possible for God to tell someone to do something that is against your own morality?

[AmateurScientist]

Originally posted by Finella

What I find disheartening here in these responses to your situation is the number of appeals to you to give up your faith simply because you are questioning and facing this terrible circumstance. I find this in poor taste, really. Yet at the same time I am compelled to assure you that there are really wonderful churches out there who share your beliefs and can help you grow as an individual. Christians have always questioned and wandered and grown in their faith for ages.

So maybe that makes my post in poor taste, too, but I do want to give you another view - just my view.


That's not really fair, is it--calling suggestions that perhaps she is awakening to the hypocrisy and downright hatred found in her church to be in poor taste?

Personally, I am happy that Ruby has this opportunity to question her faith and her reasons for it. It is horrible that it had to hurt her and her husband in the way it did. She is independent and perfectly capable of deciding for herself what is best for her. She deserves more credit than you appear to want to give her.

Your remark about Christians wandering and growing their faith even stronger is perhaps even more opportunistic than any free thinker suggesting that she might want to take stock.

You seem to be taking the opportunity to give Ruby a gentle nudge back into the flock of happy sheep. It sounds something like a cult member trying to keep another from escaping.

I don't see Ruby as a sheep at all. I have confidence she and her husband will find their own path to take.

I see nothing distasteful about encouraging others to seek truth and to discard superstition and bigotry.

AS

[evildave]

If your sundays don't seem complete without chuch, there are lots of other churches, Ruby.

I have no idea what to recommend, other than to just visit a few over the comming weeks, and decide which one you like best.

A few of them are bound to be run by good people who aren't having a psychotic episode.

[Zep]

Hi Ruby,

You're a nice person, right? Your hubby sounds like a good guy who works hard, and the kids are the usual mixture of parental frustration and pride? You like helping other people, laughing, enjoying life? Welcome to the real world!

As I understand it, this is the third such "church" you have left, each time because of disagreements between yourself and it. Can I suggest that perhaps "church" as a concept is just not for you and your family? You just didn't seem to be happy there, did you.

So perhaps, instead of wasting your Sundays being cooped up listening to a self-important tunnel-vision nincompoop drone on about the limitations they want to impose on you, can I suggest you spread your wings literally and figuratively and become fascinated with something else that would be much more productive and fulfilling for yourself, your family, your friends and your community. Make yourself happy and you can make others happy too.

Go for it!

Zep

[Boo]

Ruby,

Just wanted to chime in with my sympathies and understanding of your situation. I, too, have had to leave churches. I finally stopped going altogether when my last church told me I couldn't wear pants to service as it was unseemly for a woman to do so. The fact that I was on call for the Ambulance service on those days didn't matter.

My daughter has started going to various churches with her friends from school. They give her rides, she gets the socialization, and a chance to experience different faiths. She is only 13 and has awhile to go and much to learn before she makes up her mind.

All the best and may the God of your faith bless and keep you.



Boo

[thaiboxerken]

Leaving the church is only the first step. Now you can start to leave the conditioning of the church. Your first steps on the path to atheism will be rough, but the reward will be freedom.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Boo
I finally stopped going altogether when my last church told me I couldn't wear pants to service as it was unseemly for a woman to do so. The fact that I was on call for the Ambulance service on those days didn't matter.

Your church's dress code was more important than saving lives? Boy, that was a church with some seriously screwed up priorities.

[evildave]

Naw! They were saving souls!

That's, like, way more important than mere lives. Souls are condemned FOREVER for not wearing appropriate attire to church.

Lives end, and their souls go to heaven anyway (unless they didn't dress nice in church, then they burn eternally in some nasty pit for their disrespect to the clergy, er, god).

[Filippo Lippi]

Ruby,

I usually only post to rag the trolls (oh no, I've become what I hate), but I thought I should lend my support. You're strong willed and intelligent, you don't need the Man, either Upstairs or in the pulpit, telling you what to do or how to spend your money.

Phil

[Finella]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist


That's not really fair, is it--calling suggestions that perhaps she is awakening to the hypocrisy and downright hatred found in her church to be in poor taste?

No, I'm calling the appeals to give up something she does not yet know she wants to give up to be in poor taste. I agree, people have the right to decide what they want to do and how to live their lives, and I am certainly not trying to take away any of Ruby's indepedence in this matter.

The reason why I did post was because it seemed that those who were calling for Ruby to give up her faith did so assuming that all churches are like the one she is leaving. They are not. As I keep reiterating, there are denominations of Christianity that are not legalistic, where individuals can question and can doubt and still be part of a faith community -- elements Ruby has identified as being important to her in her faith journey.

As I said, my post was only to give another view.

Your remark about Christians wandering and growing their faith even stronger is perhaps even more opportunistic than any free thinker suggesting that she might want to take stock.

You seem to be taking the opportunity to give Ruby a gentle nudge back into the flock of happy sheep. It sounds something like a cult member trying to keep another from escaping.

I suppose you don't know me very well, otherwise you would not have made such assertions. If you read any of my posts here, you will see I am hardly a "happy sheep" kinda Christian. :D Not all Christians have been encouraged to doubt and grow; the fact that they do has often been seen as some kind of failure of faith. I was encouraged to doubt and to learn more about whether I needed faith. I still have my faith, and I still have a long life (hopefully) in front of me. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I know that, if any doubting Christian chose, there are churches out there that will encourage a person to seek, will not pressure or scare or intimidate, and will not mind if a person decides to leave because s/he is still unsure.

I don't see Ruby as a sheep at all. I have confidence she and her husband will find their own path to take.
Absolutely.

I see nothing distasteful about encouraging others to seek truth and to discard superstition and bigotry.
I do see something distasteful in encouraging someone who is in a vulnerable state to change her entire worldview which she has stated she is not quite ready to leave behind.

---,---'--{@

[Ruby]

Originally posted by justsaygnosis
It's dumbfounding how ministers become this arrogant.
Whatever happened to
"the one who would be greatest shall act as the least?"
If a minister is properly oriented they should be ministering so as to make the necessity of their function obsolete.
This behavior is no different than a teacher teaching so as to enslave his pupils to his disciplines rather than to facilitate their growth and expansion.
When one has little to offer it's best to maintain the nothingness of their doctrine veiled in mystery and fear.
You and your husband will be fine; social beings always manage to gather a community.

Thank you!:wink8:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Finella
Ruby,

My heart is aching for you -- I am saddened to hear of this happening to your church, since you have often spoken of it so fondly. I am also saddened to hear of this happening to you and your husband -- whatever caused this pastor to suddenly turn on you both, it's definitely hurtful to be betrayed like that.

What I find disheartening here in these responses to your situation is the number of appeals to you to give up your faith simply because you are questioning and facing this terrible circumstance. I find this in poor taste, really. Yet at the same time I am compelled to assure you that there are really wonderful churches out there who share your beliefs and can help you grow as an individual. Christians have always questioned and wandered and grown in their faith for ages.

So maybe that makes my post in poor taste, too, but I do want to give you another view - just my view.

It's too soon to think of new churches, I agree. I think your idea of meeting with your friends who have also left the church for support is wise. I wish you all the best -- do keep us posted.
:rub:

(I just had to use that emoticon -- hope you don't mind!!)

----,---'--{@

Thank you so much for your caring post.:w2:

I am ok with anyone making appeals to give up my faith. Likewise, I am ok with anyone making appeals for me to keep my faith.............so your post is not in poor taste!:)

What has been the outstanding thing for me in this thread, is the number of people who are supporting me and being sympathetic. As you probably know, since you are a liberal Christian like me, I would not get as much support and sympathy on a Christian fundamentalist forum. And I would hear tons of preaching. This is such a safe place for me.

Thanks for caring!

[Ruby]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken


Is it because you don't agree with the advice? I mean, is it possible for God to tell someone to do something that is against your own morality?

When it comes down to it, I am not so sure anyone really hears from God.:(

[shemp]

All churches are really cults. Sounds like he just wants to make it official.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Zep
Hi Ruby,

You're a nice person, right? Your hubby sounds like a good guy who works hard, and the kids are the usual mixture of parental frustration and pride? You like helping other people, laughing, enjoying life? Welcome to the real world!

As I understand it, this is the third such "church" you have left, each time because of disagreements between yourself and it. Can I suggest that perhaps "church" as a concept is just not for you and your family? You just didn't seem to be happy there, did you.

No, church does not seem to work for me at all. I am way too liberal in my Christian beliefs to ever be happy in a church. Plus, for now, I am way too hurt, angry and disillusioned for church going. I might attend an in home church get together with the other ones who left my church. Although they are not as liberal as I am, they are liberal enough that I can deal with it........I think!



So perhaps, instead of wasting your Sundays being cooped up listening to a self-important tunnel-vision nincompoop drone on about the limitations they want to impose on you, can I suggest you spread your wings literally and figuratively and become fascinated with something else that would be much more productive and fulfilling for yourself, your family, your friends and your community. Make yourself happy and you can make others happy too.
Go for it!
Zep

Thanks!! I just might!!!!:D

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Boo
Ruby,

Just wanted to chime in with my sympathies and understanding of your situation. I, too, have had to leave churches. I finally stopped going altogether when my last church told me I couldn't wear pants to service as it was unseemly for a woman to do so. The fact that I was on call for the Ambulance service on those days didn't matter.

My daughter has started going to various churches with her friends from school. They give her rides, she gets the socialization, and a chance to experience different faiths. She is only 13 and has awhile to go and much to learn before she makes up her mind.

All the best and may the God of your faith bless and keep you.



Boo

Thank you so much!! I am so sorry your last church treated you the way they did. It should never ever matter what a person wears to church. I went through the same sort of thing in my first church. I could not wear pants, shorts, make-up, jewelry, short length dresses or low cut dresses to church or even outside of church. I had a mini sermon preached to me when I kept wearing a dress that had sleeves about two inches above the elbow. They taught that dress sleeves had to be on the elbow or below.

AHHHHHH!!!! Makes me sick to remember! :a2:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Leaving the church is only the first step. Now you can start to leave the conditioning of the church. Your first steps on the path to atheism will be rough, but the reward will be freedom.

I honestly don't know what path I am on now. I have a lot to sort out!:rolleyes: :)

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Fillipo Lippi
Ruby,

I usually only post to rag the trolls (oh no, I've become what I hate), but I thought I should lend my support. You're strong willed and intelligent, you don't need the Man, either Upstairs or in the pulpit, telling you what to do or how to spend your money.

Phil

Thank you. Thankfully, the man upstairs has never told me to pay tithes or do anything such as my Ex-Pastor was saying.

[Roadtoad]

I just found this thread. Sorry I was late for the show...

Ruby, welcome to the club. I've also had a pastor (actually, an Episcopal priest) humiliate me publicly in front of the congregation. Had a Baptist pastor do the same thing. A sure sign of gutlessness: hide behind the Bible while you slam people who you know are too decent to strike back.

That's your ex-pastor.

Reminds me of our pastor in Roseville, who told us, "If you aren't tithing, don't bother praying, because God won't hear you." It was a sh***y thing to say to anyone, particularly to the older members of the church, many of whom were on fixed incomes, and were having a hard time making ANY offering to the church.

I don't know: maybe Crossbow is right, or perhaps any number of other posters are. But I know this: There was no way you were going to grow as a person, (which I would think would be key to growing as a Christian), as long as you were in attendance there.

We're pulling for you, Girl.

[the_ignored]

Originally posted by Crossbow


Well Ruby, since you ask for opinions, I will give you mine.

Your pastor is not nuts, he is dying.

Judging by what has happened (the anger, the egotism, the personal connection with god, the demand for public support, and so on) and that this has happened so suddenly, I would say that he has suffered some sort of stroke or may have a brain tumor because one of the symptoms of these types of things is an abrupt personality change.

If I were you, I would not deal with him directly since that will not work, because where he is at you will never be able to reach him and it will just make a bad situation worse. It is easy for me to say of course, but if you still want to help then find someone that both of you can trust and who can be discreet about your role, and get the pastor in for a full medical exam as soon as possible.

Good luck!
I daresay that this guy is right; his behaviour change just seems WAY too radical!

All I can say, is just get him looked at, if possible (I don't know how)...and stay out of the church. You and your friends should take a breather, and think things out for yourselves, maybe asking around and just staying away from "organized religion" for a while.

I hope everything turns out right, and your journey (as well as the preachers'!) turns out OK.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Ruby
No, church does not seem to work for me at all. I am way too liberal in my Christian beliefs to ever be happy in a church. Plus, for now, I am way too hurt, angry and disillusioned for church going. I might attend an in home church get together with the other ones who left my church. Although they are not as liberal as I am, they are liberal enough that I can deal with it........I think!
Don't be hurt and angry about this. If you are, that "church" has achieved its aim. And thereby relinquished any claim as being Christian.

And don't think you are too "liberal" either - that's just a limitation you put on yourself. Only such people as your (former) pastor think so small and mean, whatever the reasons, both literally and figuratively. Don't let their limitations become yours.

Go on! Surprise yourself! Be really happy! :clap:

Zep

[Thanz]

Wow. I can't believe these stories about churches in the US. Thankfully, I have never experienced anything close to what some of you have been through. . Of course, I have really only attended about 4 churches in my lifetime enough times to form an opinion, so maybe I'm just lucky.

Ruby - it seems that you do have a lot of thinking and soul searching to do. I don't know where you live or what your options are, but please be aware that there are Christian churches that do not require (or even mention) tithes, do not care how long your sleeve is on your dress or if you wear pants, and do not humiliate parishinors from the pulpit. I was going to suggest Anglican (which I think is Episcopal in the US) until I read Roadtoad's post. I encourage you to try and find a church that "fits" with you and your family. Good luck.

[FFed]

And the best part of all this is that now you can spend Sundays the way they were meant to be spent. Watching football.

[Finella]

Originally posted by Thanz
I was going to suggest Anglican (which I think is Episcopal in the US) until I read Roadtoad's post. I encourage you to try and find a church that "fits" with you and your family. Good luck.

I was sorry to read about Roadtoad's comment about the Episcopal priest, too. Basically, that just proves that religion has been made by humans, and there are going to be human a**holes in every church that exists, unforuntately.

I have been a lifelong Episcopalian, as Ruby and others here know. There have been very few such a**holes in my experience, and when there were, at least there was a hierarchy to work with in order to deal with the situation. This is why I think it's useful, if one were to want to join a church, to go with a denomination of some size where people (not just clergy, but all church members) can be held accountable for their actions.

---,---'--{@

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
I just found this thread. Sorry I was late for the show...

Ruby, welcome to the club. I've also had a pastor (actually, an Episcopal priest) humiliate me publicly in front of the congregation. Had a Baptist pastor do the same thing. A sure sign of gutlessness: hide behind the Bible while you slam people who you know are too decent to strike back.

That's your ex-pastor.

Reminds me of our pastor in Roseville, who told us, "If you aren't tithing, don't bother praying, because God won't hear you." It was a sh***y thing to say to anyone, particularly to the older members of the church, many of whom were on fixed incomes, and were having a hard time making ANY offering to the church.

I don't know: maybe Crossbow is right, or perhaps any number of other posters are. But I know this: There was no way you were going to grow as a person, (which I would think would be key to growing as a Christian), as long as you were in attendance there.

We're pulling for you, Girl.

Thank you so much!!!:D

I am sorry you had crappy Pastors too!!:(

[Ruby]

Originally posted by the_ignored

I daresay that this guy is right; his behaviour change just seems WAY too radical!

All I can say, is just get him looked at, if possible (I don't know how)...and stay out of the church. You and your friends should take a breather, and think things out for yourselves, maybe asking around and just staying away from "organized religion" for a while.

I hope everything turns out right, and your journey (as well as the preachers'!) turns out OK.

Thanks!!!;)


There's really nothing we can do as far as getting our Pastor looked at. I don't want to get involved in that sort of venture. Sonner or later, he will quit or his church will fold.....I hope.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Zep

Don't be hurt and angry about this. If you are, that "church" has achieved its aim. And thereby relinquished any claim as being Christian.

And don't think you are too "liberal" either - that's just a limitation you put on yourself. Only such people as your (former) pastor think so small and mean, whatever the reasons, both literally and figuratively. Don't let their limitations become yours.

Go on! Surprise yourself! Be really happy! :clap:

Zep

Thanks! I'm trying!:wink8:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Thanz
Wow. I can't believe these stories about churches in the US. Thankfully, I have never experienced anything close to what some of you have been through. . Of course, I have really only attended about 4 churches in my lifetime enough times to form an opinion, so maybe I'm just lucky.

Ruby - it seems that you do have a lot of thinking and soul searching to do. I don't know where you live or what your options are, but please be aware that there are Christian churches that do not require (or even mention) tithes, do not care how long your sleeve is on your dress or if you wear pants, and do not humiliate parishinors from the pulpit. I was going to suggest Anglican (which I think is Episcopal in the US) until I read Roadtoad's post. I encourage you to try and find a church that "fits" with you and your family. Good luck.

I live in Texas. I pretty much live in the bible belt. I don't know of any churches around here that don't collect tithes.

I am too burned out on churches to seek another. I'd rather stay home on Sunday's where it's safe!!!:slp:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by FFed
And the best part of all this is that now you can spend Sundays the way they were meant to be spent. Watching football.

:D

Neither myself or my hubby care much for football. I think we will do a lot of sleeping on Sunday's....if our little ones will allow.:cool:

[Ipecac]

Ruby, my sympathies also.

Based on the recent discussions you've participated in on this board, I agree with those who said you seem to be on something of an intellectual awakening. I would urge you to use this experience to your benefit and examine your long-held beliefs. Not because this experience disproves your beliefs, it certainly doesn't, but because you have the time and perhaps the space to reflect.

The reward is most certainly freedom.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Ipecac
Ruby, my sympathies also.

Based on the recent discussions you've participated in on this board, I agree with those who said you seem to be on something of an intellectual awakening. I would urge you to use this experience to your benefit and examine your long-held beliefs. Not because this experience disproves your beliefs, it certainly doesn't, but because you have the time and perhaps the space to reflect.

The reward is most certainly freedom.

Thanks! It does feel good to just sit back, relax, and reflect. :)

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Finella


I was sorry to read about Roadtoad's comment about the Episcopal priest, too. Basically, that just proves that religion has been made by humans, and there are going to be human a**holes in every church that exists, unforuntately.

I have been a lifelong Episcopalian, as Ruby and others here know. There have been very few such a**holes in my experience, and when there were, at least there was a hierarchy to work with in order to deal with the situation. This is why I think it's useful, if one were to want to join a church, to go with a denomination of some size where people (not just clergy, but all church members) can be held accountable for their actions.

---,---'--{@

I am very curious......fascinated really.....with your views and beliefs. Do you consider yourself Unitarian or a liberal Episcopalian?

Have you ever read anything by Bishop Spong? I am currently reading Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism. My hubby just finished reading it..so it's my turn now!!:)

My hubby was not convinced by everything Spong says, but he is being swayed by it...and is seeking more answers. Some concepts are easier to acccept than others. So far, I really like what I am reading.

:wink8:

[Brown]

Originally posted by Ruby
Have you ever read anything by Bishop Spong? I am currently reading Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism. Rev. Spong might convince you to give up going to church entirely.

Seriously.

I have read some of his works and have found them to be quite enlightening. He concluded that Christianity can be saved from backward thinking. After reading his books, though, I wasn't so sure about that.

I have to give the guy some credit for at least trying to address some of the most disturbing problems in the faith without insulting his readers' intelligence.

[c4ts]

The thing that vexes me most is that tythes are supposed to be a human affair, without divine justification. If your church needs money, tythes are one way to get it. It should be up to them whether or not they should charge people 10% of their land and livestock, not up to God. After all, what use does God have for worldly goods?

[thaiboxerken]

I often wonder why people leave the church, but not the gods and deities that the church created.

I guess superstition is harder to let go of than a group of people.

[Brown]

Originally posted by c4ts
The thing that vexes me most is that tythes are supposed to be a human affair, without divine justification. I have observed some well-informed ministers (such as Stuart Briscoe) speak or write intelligently on the subject of offerings. If memory serves, 1 Corinthians 16 touches upon offerings for the service of the Lord.

One commentary (possibly by the late Steve Allen) suggested that some Biblical requirements about offerings were deliberately introduced into scripture to deter people from screwing the priests. If people had to give, say, ten percent of their goods to the priests, people would ordinarily give the priests the worst of their goods, such as the livestock that no one would want anyway. The attitude of most people would be, "Hey, we'll never be able to sell this scrawny chicken; let's give it to the priests." To deal with the flaw in human nature, the priests made sure that scripture specified that the stuff given to the priests had to be good stuff, and not the stuff that people would otherwise throw away.

[Zep]

Hi Ruby! Haven't posted here for a week or so now. How's your free Sunday going? Did you guys get to lie in for a bit, read the papers and have breakfast in bed perhaps, get attacked by rampaging children, etc, etc? Generally be happy with your life?

Zep

[a_unique_person]

Ruby,

it sounds like he was going broke, and so he knew he had to make some changes or go under.

Either way, it is unfortunate that this social gathering that used to give you comfort is now gone.

I would not hold it against him, as such, people do stupid things when they are desperate.

I would also try to fill in the social need this practice met with something else.

The whole question of having a 'church of athiests' has intrigued me for a few years. I was brought up a catholic, till I rejected it because I knew it was destroying me. At the same time, I knew that some of the Catholic culture was a force for good.

As you found with your church, the ability to go to a social gathering where you knew that people were expected to project compassion, tolerance and non-agression.

This is still an important part of human existance which won't be met by just staying at home, by yourselves, watching the TV or doing something else.

My question, I suppose is, where is the church for the athiests?

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Brown
Rev. Spong might convince you to give up going to church entirely.

Seriously.

I have read some of his works and have found them to be quite enlightening. He concluded that Christianity can be saved from backward thinking. After reading his books, though, I wasn't so sure about that.

I have to give the guy some credit for at least trying to address some of the most disturbing problems in the faith without insulting his readers' intelligence.

I did a search on him on the internet and was dismayed to have all these sites pop up speaking out very negatively about him. Naturally, they were all fundamentalist sites. I finally found one good site. It was a letter Spong sent to Jerry Falwell. It was really good.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Zep
Hi Ruby! Haven't posted here for a week or so now. How's your free Sunday going? Did you guys get to lie in for a bit, read the papers and have breakfast in bed perhaps, get attacked by rampaging children, etc, etc? Generally be happy with your life?

Zep

We didn't have breakfast in bed or read the papers, but we did get attacked by our rampaging children!!!:roll:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Ruby,

it sounds like he was going broke, and so he knew he had to make some changes or go under.

Either way, it is unfortunate that this social gathering that used to give you comfort is now gone.

I would not hold it against him, as such, people do stupid things when they are desperate.

I would also try to fill in the social need this practice met with something else.

The whole question of having a 'church of athiests' has intrigued me for a few years. I was brought up a catholic, till I rejected it because I knew it was destroying me. At the same time, I knew that some of the Catholic culture was a force for good.

As you found with your church, the ability to go to a social gathering where you knew that people were expected to project compassion, tolerance and non-agression.

This is still an important part of human existance which won't be met by just staying at home, by yourselves, watching the TV or doing something else.

My question, I suppose is, where is the church for the athiests?

I'm don't know where the church for the atheists exist!!!:(

I don't even know where any liberal churches exist around here....in East Texas. :a2:

I just see church as a place to go and get brainwashed and abused!!:c1: :j2:

[Zep]

Originally posted by Ruby
We didn't have breakfast in bed or read the papers, but we did get attacked by our rampaging children!!!:roll: Such is life the world over! Cherish them!

cheers!

[Dragonrock]

Here's a link to a story about a church in a city near, of all places, Dallas.

http://www.acfnewsource.org/religion/atheist_church.html

And here's a link to their website.

http://church.freethought.org/

They claim to be the largest regular gathering of atheists in the world. I heard about them on the radio, they sing songs, the "preaching" is on various science subjects. They do all the things that theist churches do except worship.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Ruby


I'm don't know where the church for the atheists exist!!!:(

I don't even know where any liberal churches exist around here....in East Texas. :a2:

I just see church as a place to go and get brainwashed and abused!!:c1: :j2:

After getting brainwashed and abused, you are entitled to ask that question. However, it is a shame to throw out the good the church institution has found with the rubbish it has heaped upon us.

I do think that idea that we gather together to collect some good 'vibes' (for want of a better word), would be discarded too. I do not see why xians should have a monopoly on the idea.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


After getting brainwashed and abused, you are entitled to ask that question. However, it is a shame to throw out the good the church institution has found with the rubbish it has heaped upon us.

I do think that idea that we gather together to collect some good 'vibes' (for want of a better word), would be discarded too. I do not see why xians should have a monopoly on the idea.

I agree. :cool:

[thaiboxerken]

After getting brainwashed and abused, you are entitled to ask that question. However, it is a shame to throw out the good the church institution has found with the rubbish it has heaped upon us.

Why?

[Man of jade]

Sorry to hear about this Ruby... I wish you the best. I think theres a good chance that you can find a church in the bible belt that doesnt collect tithes, if you choose to keep searching.

P.S. ThaiBoxerKen, I was always curious why you had Reverend in your signitare title... Why is that?

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Man of jade
[B]Sorry to hear about this Ruby... I wish you the best. I think theres a good chance that you can find a church in the bible belt that doesnt collect tithes, if you choose to keep searching.

/B]

Thanks!!!:)

[Finella]

Originally posted by Ruby


I am very curious......fascinated really.....with your views and beliefs. Do you consider yourself Unitarian or a liberal Episcopalian?

Have you ever read anything by Bishop Spong? I am currently reading Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism. My hubby just finished reading it..so it's my turn now!!:)

My hubby was not convinced by everything Spong says, but he is being swayed by it...and is seeking more answers. Some concepts are easier to acccept than others. So far, I really like what I am reading.

First question: I consider myself a pretty liberal Episcopalian, which I think you'll find often encompasses a pretty Unitarian view of things. I recall going to a national conference once, and hearing an Episcopal college student telling us how he had to convince his chaplain to not put a statue of Buddha in the college chapel. ;)

Second question: Yes, I've been recommending Spong a couple times on this board! I have Liberating the Gospels, which I have not been able to finish, but I have gotten a lot out of what I have read so far. I enjoy his thoughts very much, and although I can understand why he's not the most popular theologian on the planet, I do think his arguments (in this book, anyway) are quite scholarly and reasonable.

If, for some reason, you do think about checking out an Episcopal church in Texas (and I know you said you were burnt out on churches, so please don't think this is pressure), let me just warn you to stay away from any in the Diocese of Fort Worth. While the denomination in Texas is generally very vibrant, young and healthy, the Diocese of FW is extremely conservative; they actually are a "non-geographical" diocese, and claim to be holding the ECUSA to "Biblical standards." Thus they don't ordain women, are pretty much on the stoning-gays-isn't-a-bad-idea kinda path, etc. They threaten to leave the ECUSA about every general convention.

But a personal break from church is a good thing... I like my Sunday sleep-ins sometimes. :D

---,---'--{@
edited to clearly indicate sarcasm....

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Finella

First question: I consider myself a pretty liberal Episcopalian, which I think you'll find often encompasses a pretty Unitarian view of things. I recall going to a national conference once, and hearing an Episcopal college student telling us how he had to convince his chaplain to not put a statue of Buddha in the college chapel. ;)

Second question: Yes, I've been recommending Spong a couple times on this board! I have Liberating the Gospels, which I have not been able to finish, but I have gotten a lot out of what I have read so far. I enjoy his thoughts very much, and although I can understand why he's not the most popular theologian on the planet, I do think his arguments (in this book, anyway) are quite scholarly and reasonable.

If, for some reason, you do think about checking out an Episcopal church in Texas (and I know you said you were burnt out on churches, so please don't think this is pressure), let me just warn you to stay away from any in the Diocese of Fort Worth. While the denomination in Texas is generally very vibrant, young and healthy, the Diocese of FW is extremely conservative; they actually are a "non-geographical" diocese, and claim to be holding the ECUSA to "Biblical standards." Thus they don't ordain women, are pretty much on the stoning-gays-isn't-a-bad-idea kinda path, etc. They threaten to leave the ECUSA about every general convention.

But a personal break from church is a good thing... I like my Sunday sleep-ins sometimes. :D

---,---'--{@
edited to clearly indicate sarcasm....

Thanks.

Ft. Worth is too far to worry about finding the wrong church there.

Most Episcopal churches where I live are very conservative, but there is one that is more liberal. I have been to it in the past, but not interested in going back. It's still too stiff and reserved for my liking.

As I've said before, I am not sure if I'll ever go back to another church...........but I am curious if any truly liberal churches exist in this area.

It sure is lonely leaving your church. I have felt so alone lately! :(

[Filippo Lippi]

I have felt so alone lately!

Don't. You're not alone, at the very least you have your family. And the people who left the church at the same time, what about them?


I know we're not real, but there are a lot of people on your side on here.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Ruby


Thanks.

Ft. Worth is too far to worry about finding the wrong church there.

Most Episcopal churches where I live are very conservative, but there is one that is more liberal. I have been to it in the past, but not interested in going back. It's still too stiff and reserved for my liking.

As I've said before, I am not sure if I'll ever go back to another church...........but I am curious if any truly liberal churches exist in this area.

It sure is lonely leaving your church. I have felt so alone lately! :(

Many people get out and about in amateur theatre, sports clubs, bridge. There is a lot more to do with other people besides bother the big guy in the sky.

Since you say you are shy, the hard part is just turning up. Once you get over the initial terror, it should all be pretty easy. Most people are pretty easy going and civilised once you get to know them.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken


After getting brainwashed and abused, you are entitled to ask that question. However, it is a shame to throw out the good the church institution has found with the rubbish it has heaped upon us.

Why?

There is nothing wrong with getting people out on a Sunday morning to interact and meet as families. In fact, I think it is a good thing to do, and, as in Rubies case, one of the main reasons why they actually go to church.

Like I said, there are other things to do as a family or individual. Golf is pretty popular, and keeps you fit too, for example.

If you don't think you can play because you aren't any good at sport or have never tried it, you haven't seen the people out there just having a bash and enjoying the fresh air. Many of them are just as bad at it as me.

[thaiboxerken]

There is nothing wrong with getting people out on a Sunday morning to interact and meet as families. In fact, I think it is a good thing to do, and, as in Rubies case, one of the main reasons why they actually go to church.

Depends on the activities being performed. I think getting families together to perform superstitious rituals is wrong. I think teaching kids that they need to ask forgiveness for the "sin" of being born is wrong.

Using crack-cocaine makes the user feel really good for a bit of time, does that mean we shouldn't consider it wrong to give to children?

[ntech]

Ruby
I met a guy who was dirt poor and his pastor convinced him to give a portion of what little nothing he had.

Put that money in a college fund for that sweet little girl of yours.

[diddidit]

Ruby -

You can join my church. I call it "The Church of the Inner Eyelid." Sleeping in on Sunday morning is the only commandment. :s2:

There's a "Ruby" posting occasionally at Fine Homebuilding's forum Breaktime. 'Zat by any chance you?

did

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Fillipo Lippi


Don't. You're not alone, at the very least you have your family. And the people who left the church at the same time, what about them?


I know we're not real, but there are a lot of people on your side on here. :many:

[thaiboxerken]

You're strong and critical enough to realize that the preacher is trying to make money, so you are definitely strong enough to not need a church. You might even be strong enough to not need a god anymore. No gods, no masters..it's the only way to be free.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Many people get out and about in amateur theatre, sports clubs, bridge. There is a lot more to do with other people besides bother the big guy in the sky.

Since you say you are shy, the hard part is just turning up. Once you get over the initial terror, it should all be pretty easy. Most people are pretty easy going and civilised once you get to know them.

Being shy is one thing, but being social phobic is a whole other ball game. It's hard for me to even go grocery shopping. I don't live in a very cultural area either.

I don't know what I'll do. I know that we plan to invite our friends (a couple who were ran out of our ex-church too) over to dinner this weekend. Have some good food and good wine and lots of laughs!!! :wink8:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by diddidit
Ruby -

You can join my church. I call it "The Church of the Inner Eyelid." Sleeping in on Sunday morning is the only commandment. :s2:

There's a "Ruby" posting occasionally at Fine Homebuilding's forum Breaktime. 'Zat by any chance you?

did

:D

Nope, must be a different Ruby.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
You're strong and critical enough to realize that the preacher is trying to make money, so you are definitely strong enough to not need a church. You might even be strong enough to not need a god anymore. No gods, no masters..it's the only way to be free.

I do feel more free now than I have ever have, but not ready to drop my belief in God. I am sorting out how I feel and believe on the whole issue. It's not easy.:(

[Filippo Lippi]

Originally posted by Ruby


I do feel more free now than I have ever have, but not ready to drop my belief in God. I am sorting out how I feel and believe on the whole issue. It's not easy.:(

I must have been very lucky. One day I seem to remember just thinking "that wasn't god that made things happen in my life, that was me." I tossed aside Dumbo's magic feather and that was that. It may have coincided with me coming out of a long period of mild depression (self diagnosed retrospectively) or it may have been when I went out to get a proper haircut instead of letting my mum do it.

Sheesh - 18 years old and still having my mum cut my hair!

[Zep]

Hi Ruby,

If you still feel comfortable with a personal God than without, can I suggest the following:

If you think God is responsible for all that has been made in this universe, at least do Him the courtesy of looking at it, and trying to absorb as much as you can! From the intricacy of flowers and insects, to the incredible web of life on earth, to the way the weather forms and moves, to the movements of the stars and planets. The laughter of children, the roar of the sea, the smell of rain on dry soil, and so on.

Then try to see why these things are how they are, and what that knowledge means. As an old professor I knew once said when he showed us something new, "Why is it so, and not otherwise?" Start making it a point of not being afraid to ask questions!

The situation for you right now is that you are just realising that "asking questions" IS allowed, that it is NOT painful, and that you can benefit personally from doing so. And you don't have to maintain or give up any of your beliefs unless YOU choose to do so. And you are lucky to live in a country that is bound by law to allow you to do this too!

cheers
Zep

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Ruby


I do feel more free now than I have ever have, but not ready to drop my belief in God. I am sorting out how I feel and believe on the whole issue. It's not easy.:(

I understand. It is hard to realize that your personal god is really just an avatar that you've built. You've already decided what behaviors and actions your god would or wouldn't condone or do. That's ok, you're well on your way to freedom.

I used to pray alot until I realized that I was merely talking to myself. (not my quote, but I forget who said it).

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
There is nothing wrong with getting people out on a Sunday morning to interact and meet as families. In fact, I think it is a good thing to do, and, as in Rubies case, one of the main reasons why they actually go to church.

Depends on the activities being performed. I think getting families together to perform superstitious rituals is wrong. I think teaching kids that they need to ask forgiveness for the "sin" of being born is wrong.

Using crack-cocaine makes the user feel really good for a bit of time, does that mean we shouldn't consider it wrong to give to children?

I wasn't saying this is a good part of religion, I think it is bad too. I went to a church as a kid, and loathed those parts of it. I still think we need social activities as families for the good of our society. People used to stand around the piano and sing, I get envious when I hear about people in other countries always going around to each others places for tea, to talk and be human. That part of humanity is, I feel, disappearing in modern, western society.

[ntech]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


People used to stand around the piano and sing.


Some still do.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Fillipo Lippi


I must have been very lucky. One day I seem to remember just thinking "that wasn't god that made things happen in my life, that was me." I tossed aside Dumbo's magic feather and that was that. It may have coincided with me coming out of a long period of mild depression (self diagnosed retrospectively) or it may have been when I went out to get a proper haircut instead of letting my mum do it.

Sheesh - 18 years old and still having my mum cut my hair!

I really can't say I attribute too much in my life happening because of God...not like I used to. I guess I am a bit confused in that area.

Ah, don't worry about the haircut. My son is twenty and I still cut his!!!!:D

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Zep
Hi Ruby,

If you still feel comfortable with a personal God than without, can I suggest the following:

If you think God is responsible for all that has been made in this universe, at least do Him the courtesy of looking at it, and trying to absorb as much as you can! From the intricacy of flowers and insects, to the incredible web of life on earth, to the way the weather forms and moves, to the movements of the stars and planets. The laughter of children, the roar of the sea, the smell of rain on dry soil, and so on.

Then try to see why these things are how they are, and what that knowledge means. As an old professor I knew once said when he showed us something new, "Why is it so, and not otherwise?" Start making it a point of not being afraid to ask questions!

The situation for you right now is that you are just realising that "asking questions" IS allowed, that it is NOT painful, and that you can benefit personally from doing so. And you don't have to maintain or give up any of your beliefs unless YOU choose to do so. And you are lucky to live in a country that is bound by law to allow you to do this too!

cheers
Zep

Very good advice! One of my big problems in life, is learning to enjoy it. I can be quite reclusive sometimes.:(

[Ruby]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken


I understand. It is hard to realize that your personal god is really just an avatar that you've built. You've already decided what behaviors and actions your god would or wouldn't condone or do. That's ok, you're well on your way to freedom.

I used to pray alot until I realized that I was merely talking to myself. (not my quote, but I forget who said it).

Yep, that's why I don't really pray anymore. I feel that it's pointless!:(

[Ruby]

Originally posted by ntech



Some still do.

What a cute little boy!!!:)

[ntech]

Originally posted by Ruby


What a cute little boy!!!:)

Thanks Ruby,


Like you with your beautiful daughter, my son and daughter are everything to me.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by ntech


Thanks Ruby,


Like you with your beautiful daughter, my son and daughter are everything to me.

I also have tweny year old son...and a 10 month old son!! They mean the world to me too!!! :)

[ntech]

That's great. They give us so much.
................some trying times also but always worth it.