What the flip is a "neocon"

[bigred]

What I mean is....liberals and conservatives alike have existed for an awfully long time, with no "break" of any kind throughout time where either did or did not. So why did someone think it necessary to come up w/this dorky term "neocon?" Is "conservative" just too hard of a word to say w/all those syllables and stuff? And why don't we have "neolibs?"

I wonder if George Carlin could work up a routine about this. :cool:

Note: this is simply a "linguistics thing" I have wondered about and not intended to bash one group or the other. Pls direct such mindless gibberish to any of the zillion threads which already exist on that here and elsewhere. TIA etc

[Earthborn]

So why did someone think it necessary to come up w/this dorky term "neocon?"Wikipedia is your friend. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism)

And why don't we have "neolibs?"Wikipedia is your friend. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism)

[bigred]

Thanks. Based on that it would appear my suspicions (sp?) are confirmed, ie there is no real reason, libs mostly having a cutesy (and therefore slightly demeaning)-sounding word to describe the dreaded enemy. :rolleyes: eg "switching sides" is nothing new or "neo" either. Or maybe they're just big "Matrix" fans :cool:

Be back later, I think I'm going to go get some "neo lunch" and have a "neo beer"

[Darat]

Thanks. Based on that it would appear my suspicions (sp?) are confirmed, ie there is no real reason, libs mostly having a cutesy (and therefore slightly demeaning)-sounding word to describe the dreaded enemy. :rolleyes: eg "switching sides" is nothing new or "neo" either. Or maybe they're just big "Matrix" fans :cool:

Be back later, I think I'm going to go get some "neo lunch" and have a "neo beer"

The thread starter asked us to ...snip...and not intended to bash one group or the other. Pls direct such mindless gibberish to any of the zillion threads which already exist on that here and elsewhere. TIA etc

[mumblethrax]

We have the recent example in the US of the New Democrats in the 90s, and the New Left in the 60s.

The reason the term neoconservative was coined is that there's a demarkation between the policies of what was then an ascendent school of thought and previous political philosophies termed conservative.

[SirPhilip]

What I mean is....liberals and conservatives alike have existed for an awfully long time, with no "break" of any kind throughout time where either did or did not. So why did someone think it necessary to come up w/this dorky term "neocon?"

http://daily.greencine.com/archives/bush-matrix.jpg

A "neocon" is a 21'st century con artist, with an inconspicuous manner and understated dress code.

[Dr Adequate]

Thanks. Based on that it would appear my suspicions (sp?) are confirmed, ie there is no real reason, libs mostly having a cutesy (and therefore slightly demeaning)-sounding word to describe the dreaded enemy. But "neo-consevatives" ("neo-cons" for short) is the label these people gave themselves. They decided that they were not conservatives, as that phrase is understood, with all its bag and baggage, but something new. Neo-conservatives.

Speaking as one of those pesky "libs", I understood the phrase "neo-conservative" to mean those American politicians who are fiscally conservative; who are interventionist in foreign policy; who don't adhere to the superstitions of the religious right but don't actually object to them either; and who are way past that thing about separate drinking fountains.

[rockoon]

Femicrats

[jimtron]

What about compassionate conservative. That's interesting to me because it implies that regular conservatives are not compassionate, and wasn't this phrase coined/used by those on the right?

[Skeptic]

It was used by the right, but as a reply to the left's accusation that conservative have no compassion. So it doesn't imply right-wingers lack compassion--only that they were attacked as lacking compassion. There are equivalent defensive terms on the left (e.g., "moderate left-wing"), which hardly imply, necessarily, that left-wingers in general are extremists.

[jimtron]

If someone calls himself a "moderate left-winger," to me that means he wants to differentiate himself from far-lefties. Moderate, like compassionate, is a qualifier.

The impression I have of compassionate conservative, is someone who wants to be seen as more sympathetic than "regular" conservatives. In my view if someone on the right uses this phrase they are giving credence to the idea that "regular" conservatives are not compassionate. If I was a conservative and heard the criticism that conservatives were not compassionate, instead of using compassionate conservative, I would explain how compassionate conservatives actually are.

[TsarBomba]

In Europe and most of the world, Neocon is a code word for "Jew." I.E. "The neocons advising President Bush to go to war in Iraq were just trying to protect Israel." It is a way for anti-semites who who do not want to be branded anti-semites to complain about "Jewish influence in politics" without actually saying anything outwardly anti-semetic.

[ForPete'sSake]

Aaaah.....compassionate conservatism...makes one yearn for 2000 points of light. Worth a good laugh back in the day. I always liked the conservative mantra of a "small government that will stop interfering in people's lives", and yet they move to assert their God-given answers for some of the most personal and moral issues such as abortion, gay rights, recreational drug use, internet gambling, evolution, what's alive and who's not, and even our eternal salvation....and all without interfering one bit. Utterly painless almost.......how compassionate.

[a_unique_person]

Neoconservatives: Neoconservatives constitute an intellectual current that emerged from the cold war liberalism of the Democratic Party. Unlike other elements of the conservative mainstream, neoconservatives have historical social roots in liberal and leftist politics. Disillusioned first with socialism and communism and later with new Democrats (like George McGovern) who came to dominate the Democratic Party in the 1970s, neoconservatives played a key role in boosting the New Right into political dominance in the 1980s. For the most part, neoconservatives - who are disproportionately Jewish and Catholic - are not politicians but rather political analysts, activist ideologues, and scholars who have played a central role in forging the agendas of numerous right-wing think tanks, front groups, and foundations. Neoconservatives have a profound belief in America's moral superiority, which facilitates alliances with the Christian Right and other social conservatives. But unlike either core traditionalists of American conservatism or those with isolationist tendencies, neoconservatives are committed internationalists. As they did in the 1970s, the neoconservatives were instrumental in the late 1990s in helping to fuse diverse elements of the right into a unified force based on a new agenda of U.S. supremacy.



http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2003/20030310_american_dreamers/glossary.htm

[Gurdur]

In Europe and most of the world, Neocon is a code word for "Jew."
Absolute nonsense.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Here's a simple and easy to remember sum-up.

Neo Conservatives=Normal Conservatives who spend a lot more. (Happen to be fiscal liberals)

Neo Liberals=An economic term describing people who favor a more free market economy with less restrictions.

[TsarBomba]

Absolute nonsense.

Well argued. Full of thougtful analysis of the issue. I guess whenever anyone says something that I disagree with (or maybe something that I don't want to believe is true), all I say is "absolute nonsense" and the debate is over!

What a concept!

[jimtron]

In Europe and most of the world, Neocon is a code word for "Jew."

Richorman: do you have any evidence to support this?

[Gurdur]

Well argued. Full of thougtful analysis of the issue. I guess whenever anyone says something that I disagree with (or maybe something that I don't want to believe is true), all I say is "absolute nonsense" and the debate is over!
What a concept!
Helloooo??? You made an unsubstantiated assertion.

Unsubstantiated = you gave no evidence at all.
Hellooooo????
I said your claim was nonsense. You also gave absolutely no evidence for your claim at all.

So now you're complaining that I dismissed your groundless assertion with a simple negation? Helllloooooooo-ooo?
_______

And since I wager that I would know European discourse and media much better than someone living in Aurora, Colorado, well, you know, I ain't too afraid of sceptically examining any evidence you might try putting forward.
:D

[Ziggurat]

Richorman: do you have any evidence to support this?

I'd say his blanket categorization of who uses the term that way is wrong, but I have indeed seen it used in that way (including by Micheal Scheuer in a letter to Commentary) on a number of occassions.

[jimtron]

I'd say his blanket categorization of who uses the term that way is wrong, but I have indeed seen it used in that way (including by Micheal Scheuer in a letter to Commentary) on a number of occassions.

Do you have a direct quote from the letter? Or any specific citations?

[Ziggurat]

Do you have a direct quote from the letter? Or any specific citations?

I'm afraid not. The letter in question was publicly accessible for a period of time after publication, but last time I tried to look for it, it seemed that it was only available to subscribers (which I am not).

[Gurdur]

I'd say his blanket categorization of who uses the term that way is wrong, but I have indeed seen it used in that way (including by Micheal Scheuer in a letter to Commentary) on a number of occassions.
Richorman was claiming "Europe and most of the world" used it that way (neocon as a codeword for Jew).

Since Michael Scheuer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Scheuer) is an American single individual, I would say any piece written by him has bugger all to do with support for Richorman's claim.

Or are "Europeans" somehow supposed to be at blame for what an American who was in the CIA for 22 years writes as an individual?

[Ziggurat]

Or are "Europeans" somehow supposed to be at blame for what an American who was in the CIA for 22 years writes as an individual?

Didn't I say he was wrong in that regard? I believe I did.

[Gurdur]

Didn't I say he was wrong ....
Fine. We'll stick with that, shall we?

[Ziggurat]

Fine. We'll stick with that, shall we?

You can stick with whatever you want to.

[bigred]

Don't have time to read all the replies offhand but I guess my point was most liberals nowdays say "neocon" when all they mean is "conservative" ie they aren't trying to distinguish "neocons" from any other conservative. And frankly to break out conservatives/liberals into little sub-groups I find a pretty pointless waste of time anyway........

[Darth Rotor]

In Europe and most of the world, Neocon is a code word for "Jew." I.E. "The neocons advising President Bush to go to war in Iraq were just trying to protect Israel." It is a way for anti-semites who who do not want to be branded anti-semites to complain about "Jewish influence in politics" without actually saying anything outwardly anti-semetic.
(r)Ichorman:

May I suggest to you that in most of the world (to include most of India and China) the idea parsing and garment shredding about "neocons" is non-existent? What those folks see is "Americans acting strangely" or "Americans doing interesting things" or "Americans on crack." For some reason, I don't see many of the folk in Congo giving a flying fig about the nuances, do you?

I don't recall Scoop Jackson being a Jew, and isn't he one of the early "neocon" politicians? Same with Rummy and Cheney. Not a lot of Jew going on there, is there? If one is to try and trace the psychological, philosophical, and political roots of Kristol's infamous "liberal mugged by reality" movement, you'd surely find some Jews, and some others.

That said, if one confines one's sources to rabid White Nationalists, and those who sympathize with them -- Mahmoud of Teheran and David Duke apparently shared some tea at the recent "Holocaust Conference" -- then one could say that the rest of the world equates neocon with Jew, for very small and narrow values of "rest of the world." Are modern Europeans really anti-Semitic by preference, or are a few well placed, and loud folks who amplify their sensibilities via print, visual, and internet media trying to create that impression? I look at the restrictions on hate speech, the laws, and the general moves toward multiculturalism in European society (where I experienced it) and see a lot more open handedness than not.

It's OK, (r)ichorman, just because you are paranoid does not mean that they are not out to get you. :p

DR

[Gurdur]

Don't have time to read all the replies offhand but I guess my point was most liberals nowdays say "neocon" when all they mean is "conservative" ie they aren't trying to distinguish "neocons" from any other conservative. ......
No. Strangely enough, it's because the neocons first identified themselves as neocons, to seperate themselves from the paleoconservatives etc. So, you know, a neocon is a codeword for a self-identified neocon.