Svengali or Stripper?

[Cain]

My renewed interest in magic has pushed me into considering developing a routine with one of these decks. Which would you recommend for a person of intermediate skills and abilities? I'll probably end up getting both, but for right now I'm leaning toward a stripper deck. Thoughts? Suggestions?

[SteveW]

I personally enjoy a stripper deck. Lots of routines to be had there.

[Brown]

A stripper deck has more possibilities, in that the effects you can achieve are more diverse.

A Svengali deck is okay for a single routine or a single knock-their-socks-off trick, but there are fewer effects that you can achieve with it. (I once saw a prominent performer use a Svengali deck that had been cut in half to achieve a pretty good effect... but this is an expensive proposition for an amateur performer.)

BTW, in case anyone gets the wrong idea, a stripper deck is NOT a deck of cards with pictures of naked ladies on them.

[rustypouch]

I like both, but there is a greater variety of effects you can perform with a stripper deck. It also stands up well to examination as no one will notice what makes its special. One time I left mine out after praticing with it, had guests come over and one of them started playing with it, and didn't see that it was different, even after several minutes of shuffling.

[fishbait]

The first deck I got was a stripper. The magic guy in the shop showed me one simple routine and I was off and running on my own. Didn't take long before I had a whole bunch of routines that I concocted myself. Many of them were "mix and match" where I would combine two or more depending on the situation. Strippers are great! People go nuts when I blow the four aces out of the deck that they just shuffled.

[SteveW]

As I've said, strippers are great, but one way decks are great too for alot of routines.

[Voob]

If any of you guys have Bicycle stripper decks, I'm wondering--How's the quality?

Mine's so sharp-cornered not even one card can stand up to scrutiny.

Here's a Svengali routine:
Near the bottom of the page---"DEMO" (http://www.marklewisentertainment.com/tradeshow.htm)

[SteveW]

Originally posted by Voob
If any of you guys have Bicycle stripper decks, I'm wondering--How's the quality?

Mine's so sharp-cornered not even one card can stand up to scrutiny.

Here's a Svengali routine:
Near the bottom of the page---"DEMO" (http://www.marklewisentertainment.com/tradeshow.htm)

I agree. I never had a Bicycle deck I liked. I always use Aviators.

[GroundStrength]

Originally posted by SteveW


I agree. I never had a Bicycle deck I liked. I always use Aviators.

I concur as well Aviator is superior to Bicycle

[LW]

Originally posted by rustypouch
It also stands up well to examination as no one will notice what makes its special.

It is strange how much scrutiny can fail to detect even the clearest strange things in a deck. For example, I did once a version of four aces to my girlfriend. She then quickly grabbed the deck out of my hands and for next five minutes stared at the faces of the cards, first searching for extra aces (didn't find any) and then wondering how I did the trick. She got so focused on the aces that she didn't notice there were two identical cards (threes of hearts) next to each other. After that time I got a little more careful in removing extra cards from the deck prior making the trick.

[Bob Klase]

I'd suggest a few regular decks and one good book on card magic without gimmicked cards (there's no shortage of good books on that topic).

[Richard G]

Get a Mirage deck. Its better than either. Its a Svengalli on steroids. Many more possible effects, with much more fluid, natural, easier handling.

Without a doubt though, sleight of hand with regular decks usualy looks more magical than with gimmick cards. (There are some exceptions).

[Voob]

Yes, I like my Mirage Deck, although I've never used it live.
There's something to be said for the Pop-Eyed Popper Deck too (Mirage Deck minus the "shortcomings" if you know what I mean). It can be fanned face-down for a spec to touch any card without any worries.

[Mark Lewis]

I must say that I rather like that routine that Voob referred to.
In fact I think it is the best routine in existence. I know the performer personally so may be a trifle biased.

On the website referred to there is a "for magicians only" page. This consists of an advertisement for a book on the svengali deck. It seems to be endorsed by people such as Paul Harris, Michael Close, Bill Nagler MD, Alan Wassilak, Richard Kaufmann and many, many others.

The author is a very humble person who wouldn't dream of blatant advertising so I though I would help him out. I am not sure that I approve of his previous profession though. I heard tell that he used to be a professional psychic.

Mark Lewis

[Voob]

Hey, wow--Thats you!

Wonderful routine and great, funny presentation. "Eveyone makes mistakes...my mother did..."

I humbly bow at your feet, sir.

[Mark Lewis]

I must say that this Voob fellow has very astute judgement.

[magicflute]

While these type of special decks are good for an isolated trick or two, it is a mistake to develop your whole routine around them. The occasion will come when someone will hand you a regular deck after praizing you to high heaven in front of a group of people and ask you to do your thing! Needless to say, it is a reputation destroyer. It is best to develop a routine with regular cards so that you can always perform impromptu, and use the special cards sparingly.

[Mark Lewis]

I have been doing magic for over 40 years and never once has anyone ever handed me a regular deck to "do my thing"

I often use a complete svengali routine in professional shows. It is a killer if done right. You can switch the deck if you really feel you want to, however I have found the key to working with the deck is this simple phrase:
"This is a trick deck of cards that I bought at a magic shop"
then do the routine.
Audacity and bluff are essential skills for a card magician.

Incidentally, I can use a regular deck just as well, if not better than a svengali.

[ChrisH]

I am the proud possessor of two stripper decks that I have had since the 70s - they were made for me by a chap called - oh, what was it? - oh yes - The Amazing Randi, on one of his visits to London.

Damn, I'm smug...

[Pyrrho]

Flame posts have been split out to a new thread in Flame Wars.

[homunculus]

Flame posts have been split out to a new thread in Flame Wars.

No problem.

For the record, the bit of mild sarcasm which triggered all this was not entirely "unprovoked". It's just that Mark Lewis doesn't know who I am.

My apologies for letting things get out of hand.

Paul.

[Mark Lewis]

Who are you?

[homunculus]

While these type of special decks are good for an isolated trick or two, it is a mistake to develop your whole routine around them. The occasion will come when someone will hand you a regular deck after praizing you to high heaven in front of a group of people and ask you to do your thing! Needless to say, it is a reputation destroyer. It is best to develop a routine with regular cards so that you can always perform impromptu, and use the special cards sparingly.

Right, and if you ARE going to use a gaffed deck, don't advertise it. Cetainly don't announce blithely that you're using a "trick deck" or anything like that. I think most magicians would agree with this.

But what some in the fraternity don't seem able to accept, is that there isn't really any "correct" way to do things. Whatever suits your personality and performing style...

Paul.

[Mark Lewis]

You say that "most magicians would agree with this"

Yes. and "most magicians" know nothing about the svengali deck beyond using it for a force card. Not to mention that "most magicians" know virtually nothing about audience psychology. They know nothing about audacity. They know nothing about bluff.

Finally a goodly proportion of them know nothing about magic.

Since audiences may suspect you are using a trick deck when you use the svengali deck you take the bull by the horns and blatantly say you are using one. They are going to think it anyway so you may as well take the wind out of their sails.
Then switch the deck. When they grab for it the fact that you have admitted that they are trick cards and the fact that they suspect it anyway will combine to make for very astonished people when they find that there is nothing wrong with them.

I can assure you that I know more about this deck than a single living soul. At least it seems that way. I have performed it countless thousands of times and still do. At a trade show I get more reaction with it than anything else I do.

There are indeed many different ways of performing and many different styles. However the basic rules of magic are there for a reason. They have stood the test of time.

One of those rules is simplicity of effect. There is nothing more simple, straightforward and astonishing to a layman than a deck of cards seemingly different and ordinary changing to a deck completely full of nine of hearts. Think about that for a moment.
Imagine you are a layman watching something like that. The impact will be far stronger than some complicated sleight of hand effect put out by some supposed hotshot with 15 fingers.

Incidentally, I recommend thoroughly the procedure of imagining you are a layman. Difficult to do but worth the effort.

[Sundog]

OK, I'm a definite layman, but I can tell you my response to a deck that magically changes into all the same card: "I bought one of those decks when I was 12 years old at a Ben Franklin store. Am I supposed to be impressed?"

Doesn't everyone pretty much know how that is done? I can't imagine too many people who don't know THAT particular "secret", and as I said, I know nothing about magic.

[Brown]

Originally posted by Sundog
Doesn't everyone pretty much know how that is done? I can't imagine too many people who don't know THAT particular "secret", and as I said, I know nothing about magic. It's all in the presentation. Some Svengali deck tricks don't look like Svengali deck tricks at all. The secret can be hard to spot, especially when the card selection seems to play a minor role in the trick.

Also, there are some "Svengali deck tricks" that don't involve playing cards. Magician Mark Wilson, for example, used to do a stamp album trick that worked on a principle similar to the Svengali deck. When he flipped the pages of his stamp book at the start of the trick, the pages were empty. But when he flipped the pages at the end of the trick, every page had stamps covering it.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Brown
It's all in the presentation. Some Svengali deck tricks don't look like Svengali deck tricks at all. The secret can be hard to spot, especially when the card selection seems to play a minor role in the trick.



I don't know. If I ever see a magician, regardless of his skill, turn an ordinary deck of cards into one of all the same face, I'm going to react with "I know how he did that." Once you know how it's done, the skill with which it's done seems irrelevant.

I was responding to the idea that a simple trick, like changing a deck of cards into all the same card, is impressive. I woudn't find it impressive in the least - I know how THAT one is done. I think pretty much everyone does.

[Mark Lewis]

Yes, but what would be your reaction if after assuming it was a trick deck and you examined it and found it wasn't? Sorry about bad grammar in this sentence but you know what I mean.

And what about the countless thousands of people who have never seen a svengali deck? There are still countless thousands. That is why they are still selling.

[GroundStrength]

The best magic is sometimes about 'bluster and balls'

What I mean is I've seen a pro take a couple of rubber-bands and enthrall a crowd of 20 for an hour, the entire time telling them what he was doing.

I have also told people to WATCH me bend the fork, only to hide the bending of the tines (in different directions)! Then wammo they see the tines and have no idea what happened and it makes them question everything I say from that point forward in the routine.

I think that Chappy Brazil in his watch steal video uses a bad coin in the hand to distract the mark in order to steal the watch.

That's what I think Mark is saying about telling them about the deck. DISTRACTION/MISDIRECTION - magic 101.

Eugene Burger has a great video about magic presentation, worth a viewing or two IMO.

Later,

[Brown]

Originally posted by Sundog
I don't know. If I ever see a magician, regardless of his skill, turn an ordinary deck of cards into one of all the same face, I'm going to react with "I know how he did that." Once you know how it's done, the skill with which it's done seems irrelevant.That's a good point. Changing all the cards into the same face is a tip-off to a Svengali deck. Because the effect would cause many spectators to think "Svengali deck," not too many professional conjurors do this trick.

The Mark Wilson stamp book trick is a variation of this very trick, however, and people don't think "Svengali deck" when they see it, because it doesn't involve playing cards. (Mark Wilson and his son Greg have also done a card trick in which a deck of cards all appears to be the same card, but there are various twists in the trick so that the audience will not think "Svengali deck." And, technically speaking, I don't think they used a Svengali deck to accomplish the effect.)

There is an account in an old issue of Skeptic magazine about James Randi performing a mental feat that knocked everyone's socks off. By a complicated procedure, three people found three words in books, apparently at random. They all stood, and they were supposed to be seated if, and only if, Mr. Randi said the word that they had found. Mr. Randi promptly uttered all three words, and all three people promptly sat down. How had Mr. Randi done it?

Well, according to the account, part of the word selection process involved selection of a card from a deck of cards. By forcing a particular card, Mr. Randi forced the three people to find pre-selected words according to the complicated procedure. And how had Mr. Randi forced the card? "I used a TV magic deck," he said, shrugging. It would not surprise me one bit if he used a Svengali deck to accomplish the force. If so, here was a simple card trick masquerading as a fantastic feat of mentalism.

[Mark Lewis]

I did make another post about this but it seems to have disappeared.

It is true that the deck is more well known than it should be. However this should be no deterrence to an effective performance.

I can still amaze people that own the deck. I do this countless times each day at trade shows. They do not realise that this is the deck they have at home because of the moves I have introduced.

It is all in the presentation. It is never the trick that makes the magician but rather the magician that makes the trick.

[GroundStrength]

Come on now, isn't anyone going to comment on my 'bluster and balls' statement?!? :rub:

[Mark Lewis]

Don't worry. I will.
I like the sound of my own voice. Even if it is the printed word and you cannot hear it.
You are quite correct.
Murray the great escapologist used to term it "audacity and bluff"

Actually I consider it to be sound psychology. A good magician should have a plentiful supply of this. Nerve and chudspah will often take a performer further that the cleverest sleight ever will.

Actually a goodly supply of audacity will help you to do sleight of hand. Palming and the top change come to mind as sleights which require a certain amount of sang froid. As does setting up a deck in front of the spectators.

I believe I have the best method available of setting up the deck for Out of This World. I TELL them I am setting up the deck. This is a little known George Blake idea and I have no energy to explain the details.

I may be in the mood later when things mellow out. Mind you there seem to be too many laymen about here so I may not bother after all.

We shall see.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Mark Lewis

I may be in the mood later when things mellow out. Mind you there seem to be too many laymen about here so I may not bother after all.

We shall see.

Is that a polite way of saying "shut up and get lost, sonny"? If so, just say it, I'm a big boy.

[Mark Lewis]

Heavens no! I like laymen even if they don't like svengali decks.
In fact I just posted the thing in question.
The trouble is that I have got some "potentially unwanted file" on my computer and I can't get rid of it.
It is stopping my posts reaching this forum.

It is called Xupiter or something. I think it has been sent to protect this forum from me.

[fingerjack]

I've been following this thread for several days with amusement. I, like Mark, seem to pop up wherever the Svengali is the focal point of topic (not to mention I've been a fan of Randi for years).

Anyhow, I'd like to leave you with my thoughts and opinion on the Svengali in an essay posted at my site: http://www.geocities.com/fingerjack/svengali.html . Although my thinking differs from Mark's, I certainly see his point, especially if you perform his routine, so naturally he is a rare exception. Anyhow, I hope you enjoy the article.

[LW]

Originally posted by Mark Lewis
Heavens no! I like laymen even if they don't like svengali decks.

I'd say that the main problem with svengali decks for amateurs is that you can really use it only once or twice with the same audience. No matter how different tricks you make, they start to notice when the same card pops out the third time.

I'm very amateur and I can do only few tricks well enough to present them to audience. My favorite method is to have two identical decks, one of which has almost eight kings. Then, after playing a round or two of some card game with the other deck I switch them and perform some nice mentalism trick. This usually catches the audience off guard.

[magicflute]

Actually, I am ALWAYS asked to perform at parties and meetings and such. If they have their own cards, so much the better. Often when given a deck I say "hmmm... I think these are magic cards that you have!" and then I do 2 or three quickie changes to demonstrate the fact. This is to my experience, more impressive (judging by the expressions of the audiences) than if I used my own deck to start. As I commented, I do use special decks for particular effects, I do switch them in and out. This works well for me. But as always, it is the performer that makes the effect and not the other way around. What woks for me may not work for you and viceversa.
B.T.W. I do carry my own decks! Some of the decks I am given are often too worn to work with, but I still perform one or two effects then use my deck.

[Randy with a "Y"]

Stripper & Svengali decks are great but don't let them become a crutch. (ie: Unless you have a trick deck of some kind you won't be able to have any fun.)

Get yourself a decent book on cards and study it for a while. Then pick the one trick you think you'd really like to do and learn it well. That one trick with an ordinary deck of cards will get you farther than 10 tricks with a gaffed deck will.

As a matter of fact, I might suggest the things you learned with a Stripper deck can be done with an ordinary deck as well... AND... with better results.

Do you know how to "Cut the Aces" with a Stipper deck? (Personally I prefer Kings. "Cut the Kings" just sounds better. Face cards are more visual too.) Well, once you learn a good false shuffle a "Pass" and maybe a double lift you can do the same thing. In fact, you can tell people things like, "Some people use 'Trick Decks' to do this effect but *I* use an ordinary one. {Pick up that deck from your friend's coffee table.}

My most memorable moment cutting the kings was happened like this:

I was at work (on lunch break) and some of my co-workers were playing cards. I wasn't in the game. One of the guys mentioned "cheating" at cards. Another said something like, "I know a guy who has this 'trick deck' with {SOME KIND OF GAFF} so you can pull out any card you want. I jumped at the chance, picked up the deck they were playing with, shuffled it a couple-three times and proceeded to cut the first king off the top of the deck. I said something like, "Woah! I didn't know I could REALLY do that!" {Shuffle-Cut-FLIP} "Look! TWO kings!" {Shuffle-Cut} "I wonder if I can find the THIRD one?" {FLIP} "Holy S***! That's THREE!" Then I put the deck on the table and said, "I think I'd better quit while I'm ahead! {The fourth king was already on top.} One of the guys couldn't stand the suspense and reached over to flip the last card. It was the last king, of course!

The cry that went up could probably be heard in the next county! I just gave the guys this astonished, "I don't know how I just did that face", and shrugged my shoulders then walked out of the room.

The moral of the story is that, if I had only known how to do that with a gaffed deck I could have never have done that trick with the very deck some of my friends were using to play cards with. The effect had 100 times more power.

It's not hard to learn. Just let those trick decks be stepping stones to other tricks... a MEANS instead of an END.