Dallas-based pizza chains accepts Mexican Pesos for payment

[Ladewig]

Pizza Patron ( http://www.pizzapatron.com/ ) will now accept Pesos, although at a rate which is not entirely competitive with banks and currency exchanges.

Reuters (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=2007-01-09T131523Z_01_N18303638_RTRUKOC_0_US-PESOS-PIZZAS-USA.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsHome-C3-oddlyEnoughNews-2)

DALLAS, Jan 8 (Reuters Life!) - Mexican pesos won't buy you much north of the border. But from Monday they'll buy you a pizza.

A Dallas-based pizza chain which caters to the Hispanic community is accepting the Mexican currency at all of its 59 U.S. stores starting on Monday, giving the greenback some unusual competition at the cash register.

"Unlike many other businesses for us it makes sense. Our stores are located in predominately Hispanic communities and so the majority of our customers are Hispanic," said Andrew Gamm, director of brand development for Pizza Patron.

"We know that a large number of them travel back and forth between the U.S. and Mexico and consequently have some pesos left over in their pocket. The pizza business is extremely competitive and we thought this was a way to position ourselves in relation to our competitors," he told Reuters.

-more-

I wonder how long it will take for Bill O'Reilly to decry this act as just another step on the road to hell?

[Darth Rotor]

Pizza Patron ( http://www.pizzapatron.com/ ) will now accept Pesos, although at a rate which is not entirely competitive with banks and currency exchanges.

Reuters (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=2007-01-09T131523Z_01_N18303638_RTRUKOC_0_US-PESOS-PIZZAS-USA.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsHome-C3-oddlyEnoughNews-2)



I wonder how long it will take for Bill O'Reilly to decry this act as just another step on the road to hell?
If INS were clever, they'd use this sort of operating mode to catch a few more illegals.

DR

[tkingdoll]

If INS were clever, they'd use this sort of operating mode to catch a few more illegals.

DR

It's illegal to buy pizza?

[BPSCG]

From a business point of view, this makes excellent sense:
The peso/dollar exchange rate being offered at Pizza Patron is 12 to 1 against the current rate of close to 11 to 1 to enable the franchise to cover the costs of converting the pesos at local banks.Buying pesos at the rate of twelve to the dollar, then selling them at the rate of eleven to the dollar gives you about a nine percent profit. Not bad.

And the "inconvenience" of the pizza company having to convert the pesos to dollars really isn't all that bad. Link (https://www.xe.com/fx/).

[Ladewig]

From a business point of view, this makes excellent sense:

I expect the profits from this decision will exceed the possible losses from "patriots" who will boycott the business.

[Just thinking]

I wonder how long it will take for Bill O'Reilly to decry this act as just another step on the road to hell?

What act?

As long as the private establishment wishes to incur the risks/benefits of dealing with such transactions, it's entirely their right to do so. They must decide if this is how they wish to do business and then deal with all their legal obligations (taxes, salaries, etc.) according to law -- and blame no one but themselves if this goes awry. But if this type of currency exchange by businesses becomes law then I'll be right up alongside Uncle Bill. The last time I was in Canada some establishments accepted US dollars -- some did not. As long as it's not a forced action to accept foreign currency, I see no problem.

[bozothedeathmachine]

Where to being... I don't understand the hubbub.

1. It's a business, they can take whatever currency they want. If they want to trade goats for pizza then good for them. Moreover, this will likely increase their business. As people will have pesos burning holes in their pockets and nothing to spend it, might as well buy a pizza. However, this increase will likely be offset by the would-be boycott.

2.This is an awesome PR stunt. It's all over the news here. They have free advertising out the wazoo. People who come here from Mexico likely don't have that many pesos, so repeat business is unlikely. This is not a long-term plan.

3. People are always complaining that Mexicans are sending dollars to Mexico, now they complain when the shoe's on the other foot. Consider it a re-appropriation of funds.

[Beerina]

Oh for Christ's sake, you people!

I live in Detroit area, and there are restaraunts on both sides of the border that accept both US and Canadian cash.

Heck, we used to eat at an all-you-can-eat shrimp/fish place that gave you 73 cents on the dollar Canadian, and this was 30 years ago, and this was 30 miles inland.

[Just thinking]

3. People are always complaining that Mexicans are sending dollars to Mexico, now they complain when the shoe's on the other foot. Consider it a re-appropriation of funds.

Don't take this personally ... but who exactly is complaining?

[BPSCG]

Moreover, this will likely increase their business. ...

...However, this increase will likely be offset by the would-be boycott.I don't think the boycott fallout will be significant; they market primarily to the Hispanic community. I think it's a smart move all around.

[ponderingturtle]

Oh for Christ's sake, you people!

I live in Detroit area, and there are restaraunts on both sides of the border that accept both US and Canadian cash.

Heck, we used to eat at an all-you-can-eat shrimp/fish place that gave you 73 cents on the dollar Canadian, and this was 30 years ago, and this was 30 miles inland.

But all they where doing is catering to the frostbacks. This is about being a Proper American(tm)

[Garrette]

Damned Canucks. If they weren't doing the jobs we upstanding Americans won't do, I'd vote for building that fence. 54' 40'', right?

[Darth Rotor]

Oh for Christ's sake, you people!

I live in Detroit area, and there are restaraunts on both sides of the border that accept both US and Canadian cash.

Heck, we used to eat at an all-you-can-eat shrimp/fish place that gave you 73 cents on the dollar Canadian, and this was 30 years ago, and this was 30 miles inland.
And how far is Dallas from Mexico? ;) Over two hundred miles, at closest point of approach (roughly Del Rio.) Anyhoo, BPSCG is right: this guy is making a business based decision that will probably pay off for him.

DR

[pgwenthold]

What act?

As long as the private establishment wishes to incur the risks/benefits of dealing with such transactions, it's entirely their right to do so.

So is WalMart, but that didn't stop Bill from criticising them for instructing their employees to wish customers Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas.

IOW, since when does the fact they are a private business doing what they feel is best for business have anything to do with whether OReilly will blame them for ruining American society?

[Upchurch]

I wonder how long it will take for Bill O'Reilly to decry this act as just another step on the road to hell?
The local conservative radio talk show guys were already on this story. What a travisty it is, too.

[Number Six]

Is it legal to take other than US currency in a transaction? I guess so but I think that might complicate things a bit. If you do take a goat as payment how is that accounted for, economy-wise? I mean, you have to pay taxes on the money you bring in when you sell something so that means you have to pay taxes if you bring in something other than money too.

[drkitten]

Is it legal to take other than US currency in a transaction? I guess so but I think that might complicate things a bit. If you do take a goat as payment how is that accounted for, economy-wise?

You come up with a reasonable estimate of the value of the goat for tax purposes, and then you tell the tax man that when he comes for his share.

For a goat, that can be rather difficult, but it's not that tricky for pesos since the exchange rates are published. It's no harder than my trying to deduct business expenses incurred in overseas in foreign currency. ("Gee, that hotel room cost me four billion Elbonian eyecrud per night, which is (flip, flip) about 85p British or (flip, flip) two thousand US dollars.")

[ponderingturtle]

Is it legal to take other than US currency in a transaction? I guess so but I think that might complicate things a bit. If you do take a goat as payment how is that accounted for, economy-wise? I mean, you have to pay taxes on the money you bring in when you sell something so that means you have to pay taxes if you bring in something other than money too.

Damn you Amazon.uk. You should take dollars as you are an American(tm) company!

[ponderingturtle]

Damned Canucks. If they weren't doing the jobs we upstanding Americans won't do, I'd vote for building that fence. 54' 40'', right?

As long at is it a proper american hight, it can't be in any of those damn foreign metric lengths, the liter.

[Ladewig]

So is WalMart, but that didn't stop Bill from criticising them for instructing their employees to wish customers Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas.

IOW, since when does the fact they are a private business doing what they feel is best for business have anything to do with whether OReilly will blame them for ruining American society?

My sentiments exactly.

Just because this new policy is legal, moral, ethical, involves consenting adults, increases the GDP, and harms no one does not mean that some radio and television personalities will not cry like stuck pigs over the loss of American identity.

[Q-Source]

This is a good idea, as long as the peso doesn't devalue.

[Minadin]

They accept U.S. dollars at a lot of places worldwide, including Mexico. I don't think it's a bad idea for companies near our border to accept foreign cash, as long as they are careful with the exchange rate.

[Just thinking]

So is WalMart, but that didn't stop Bill from criticising them for instructing their employees to wish customers Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas.

IOW, since when does the fact they are a private business doing what they feel is best for business have anything to do with whether OReilly will blame them for ruining American society?

Non Sequitur. If in fact a store stops its employees fom expressing holiday greetings (in the traditional sense) then I too would object. But when Bill takes up the cause for stopping them to accept whatever form of currency they want then you have a point.

And to pin the Happy Holiday (http://www.zogby.com/NEWS/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1213) greeting reaction solely on Bill's shoulders ignores quite a population. And as you can see from the link, they clearly did not initially do what was best for business -- it was poilitcally motivated.

[shemp]

Where to being... I don't understand the hubbub.

1. It's a business, they can take whatever currency they want. If they want to trade goats for pizza then good for them.

This morning's exchange rate is 1 goat = 43.2785 large cheese pizzas. If you want pepperoni, it's 38.4783.

[BPSCG]

You come up with a reasonable estimate of the value of the goat for tax purposes, and then you tell the tax man that when he comes for his share.You're talking about barter. Here's what the tax man says you do (http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html):
For a goat, that can be rather difficult, but it's not that tricky for pesos since the exchange rates are published. Correct. Exchanging pesos for pizza isn't barter, so the guy selling the pizza just calculates the number of pesos he received, calculates how many dollars that would be, and reports that on his tax return.

[brodski]

This morning's exchange rate is 1 goat = 43.2785 large cheese pizzas. If you want pepperoni, it's 38.4783.

How much for a goat pizza?

[Ziggurat]

How much for a goat pizza?

Whole goat or diced?

[ImaginalDisc]

You're talking about barter. Here's what the tax man says you do (http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html):
Correct. Exchanging pesos for pizza isn't barter, so the guy selling the pizza just calculates the number of pesos he received, calculates how many dollars that would be, and reports that on his tax return.

Here's a link to an NPR interview with the owner of the business.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6749045

[Ladewig]

Non Sequitur. If in fact a store stops its employees fom expressing holiday greetings (in the traditional sense) then I too would object. But when Bill takes up the cause for stopping them to accept whatever form of currency they want then you have a point.

And to pin the Happy Holiday (http://www.zogby.com/NEWS/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1213) greeting reaction solely on Bill's shoulders ignores quite a population. And as you can see from the link, they clearly did not initially do what was best for business -- it was poilitcally motivated.

The stores made a decision to switch to "Happy Holidays" to be more inclusive. The stores did not, as Bill O'Reilly repeatedly asserts, make the change as part of The War on Christmas (tm).

[TragicMonkey]

How much for a goat pizza?

I wouldn't eat a pizza made by a goat. How do you know he washed his hooves?

I wish some businesses here would accept francs. I have tons of them my dad brought back from business trips to Europe, only now apparently they aren't worth anything even in France.

[ponderingturtle]

The stores made a decision to switch to "Happy Holidays" to be more inclusive. The stores did not, as Bill O'Reilly repeatedly asserts, make the change as part of The War on Christmas (tm).

It is all about the Struggle Against Saturnalia really.

[brodski]

The stores made a decision to switch to "Happy Holidays" to be more inclusive. The stores did not, as Bill O'Reilly repeatedly asserts, make the change as part of The War on Christmas (tm).

Ah, but those who WalMart wished to "include" are on the front lines on the WAR ON CHRISTMAS, as such WalMart are giving aid and comfort to the enemy!

[Just thinking]

The stores made a decision to switch to "Happy Holidays" to be more inclusive. The stores did not, as Bill O'Reilly repeatedly asserts, make the change as part of The War on Christmas (tm).

I never asserted they did ... simply that I would be upset if I was told I could not wish someone the traditional good-will gesture of the season. And my non-sequitur comment still holds, as no one has shown Bill to disagree with most of us on this peso issue. BTW, Sean Hannity agrees with most of us as well.

[Ladewig]

And my non-sequitur comment still holds, as no one has shown Bill to disagree with most of us on this peso issue. BTW, Sean Hannity agrees with most of us as well.

It's still early. I'll bet a fin on B. O'R. coming out against it.

[Just thinking]

It's still early. I'll bet a fin on B. O'R. coming out against it.

... and if he's on our side?

[Rasmus]

I wish some businesses here would accept francs. I have tons of them my dad brought back from business trips to Europe, only now apparently they aren't worth anything even in France.

Some places will still accept the old currencies here in Europe - for much the same reasons: They offer their customers an easy way to get rid of their old money and hop to tap into the millions and millions that are still tucked away between peoples' couch cushions.

You can still get your old money exchanged - in Germany only a few select banks can do that for you, though. Hence the businesses move to take that burden away from you for money that you cannot just spend at other places.

[Ladewig]

... and if he's on our side?

Then I will pay $5 to the first person who accepts the bet.

[ChristineR]

As I person who has lived most of her life near the US/Canada border I find this completely unremarkable. Quite a few businesses advertise that they exchange at higher than the going rate (of course these guys are usually overpriced and/or strip clubs). Other tourist trap type businesses offer less than the going rate.

[Kopji]

Funny thing is that I can't ever remember anyone in Mexico using pesos.

[steverino]

... and if he's on our side?

Well, Pat Buchanan has always been against the Iraqi war.

[steverino]

Oh for Christ's sake, you people!

I live in Detroit area, and there are restaraunts on both sides of the border that accept both US and Canadian cash.

The Canada analogy is not valid. There is an illegal alien crisis coming from the south, not from the north. I think it is fair to view this peso thing with "Press one for Spanish, two for English."

The Canadian Dollar in the U.S. represents commerce. The Mexican Peso in the U.S., however, becomes a symbol, another invasion.

Just because this is not PC, this side of the coin, I feel, merits mention.

[Zep]

So what are their pizzas like anyway? Better than the competition down the street, who will VERY rapidly copy this move? And so will the Chinese takeout. And the Subways. And MacDonalds...

[Skeptic]

So far as I know restaurants (and all businesses) in the USA must accept US dollars as payment, but there is no law that forbids accepting other currency--or anything else, for that matter-as payment. If a pizza chain decides to accept euros, pesos, ruppees, mopnopoly money, or teddy bears as payment, it can.

[Skeptic]

The Canadian Dollar in the U.S. represents commerce. The Mexican Peso in the U.S., however, becomes a symbol, another invasion.

(Sigh) hey, if you have some extra pesos invading your bank account, send them to me...

[UnrepentantSinner]

How much for a goat pizza?

Interestingly enough, the availible toppings are rather plebean (http://www.pizzapatron.com/menu_menu.cfm). No Barbacoa pizza? No Chirizo? Not even chicken and artichoke hearts?

So what are their pizzas like anyway? Better than the competition down the street, who will VERY rapidly copy this move? And so will the Chinese takeout. And the Subways. And MacDonalds...

Apparently it's to like everything else associated with the invasion (like .99 stores and Wal-Mart) making things cheap since people aren't making decent wages (http://www.pizzapatron.com/index.cfm)

There's one just a few miles from my apartments. I might try stopping by and checking out their ready to go pepperoni for $4.99 which is $.01 cheaper than Little Caesars.

[BPSCG]

Funny thing is that I can't ever remember anyone in Mexico using pesos.I was in Cancun, Mexico at Thanksgiving. Funny, nobody there had any problems accepting my gringo dollars as tips.

[pgwenthold]

I never asserted they did ... simply that I would be upset if I was told I could not wish someone the traditional good-will gesture of the season.


You work at Wal Mart? Unless you do, what the heck are you talking about? Moreover, even if you do, isn't it WalMart's right to make it store policy, if they are willing to take the risk?



And my non-sequitur comment still holds, as no one has shown Bill to disagree with most of us on this peso issue.

Please remember the discourse that took place.

Question: How long will it be before Bill OReilly calls the downfall of American society?
You: Why would he complain? They are a private company and can do it if they want.
Me: WalMart is a private company and can tell it's employees to not say Merry Christmas if it wants, but that doesn't stop Bill OReilly from criticizing them.

You argued that they were a private company, so Bill OReilly would not have any reason to criticize them. I just pointed out that that has not stopped Bill OReilly before.

If you actually follow the discussion, it's not a non-sequitor at all.

[Beerina]

This morning's exchange rate is 1 goat = 43.2785 large cheese pizzas. If you want pepperoni, it's 38.4783.

What if you want goat?

[UnrepentantSinner]

What if you want goat?

I already pointed out, they don't offer Barbacoa pizza.

[steverino]

(Sigh) hey, if you have some extra pesos invading your bank account, send them to me...

Si senor.:)

[Just thinking]

You work at Wal Mart? Unless you do, what the heck are you talking about? Moreover, even if you do, isn't it WalMart's right to make it store policy, if they are willing to take the risk?

Of course it is ... but I would still be upset. To think that one will be happy with all the policies set by an employer is expecting much. And I never said anything about deliberately not following them.

Please remember the discourse that took place.

Question: How long will it be before Bill OReilly calls the downfall of American society?
You: Why would he complain? They are a private company and can do it if they want.

Not exactly -- but it is my point.

Me: WalMart is a private company and can tell it's employees to not say Merry Christmas if it wants, but that doesn't stop Bill OReilly from criticizing them.

You argued that they were a private company, so Bill OReilly would not have any reason to criticize them. I just pointed out that that has not stopped Bill OReilly before.

I argued that Bill would not criticize them because he would likely agree that it is their right to accept whatever currency they want as a business. It also may be a store's right to tell their employees to not wish anyone Merry Christmas; but one has nothing to do with the other, as a seasoned greeting is well established throughout history as being a common gesture during that time of year. This would be analogous to telling employees never to shake hands with a customer -- it may be within their right to establish such policy, but goes against normal behavior to most. Bill's argument is that the Holiday Greeting is becoming too politically correct (making people stop doing what has been done for generations) -- accepting established currency (entirely decided upon by the business, not the government) in the world market is not a push to such political correctness. Besides, as others have pointed out, this is nothing new at the Northern Border.

If you actually follow the discussion, it's not a non-sequitor at all.

And if you follow mine -- you see that it is.

[pipelineaudio]

We have these here as well. I dont see a problem with it. If theyre hiring illegals thats another thing...

[Just thinking]

We have these here as well. I don't see a problem with it. If they're hiring illegals that's another thing...

... or forcing businesses to accept pesos.

BTW ... does anyone know if this is the first time this has been done? My gut feeling is that it has been done often in the past, but this time it's somehow making news.

[ponderingturtle]

The Canada analogy is not valid. There is an illegal alien crisis coming from the south, not from the north. I think it is fair to view this peso thing with "Press one for Spanish, two for English."

The Canadian Dollar in the U.S. represents commerce. The Mexican Peso in the U.S., however, becomes a symbol, another invasion.

Just because this is not PC, this side of the coin, I feel, merits mention.

And why would illegal immigrits be the most likely set to have pesos? Are dolars that hard to get in mexico?

[pgwenthold]

And why would illegal immigrits be the most likely set to have pesos? Are dolars that hard to get in mexico?


I love the dichotomy of the arguments:
1) Illegal aliens are stealing american jobs
2) Illegal aliens will buy pizzas using pesos

Since when do american companies pay their employees in pesos?

[ponderingturtle]

I love the dichotomy of the arguments:
1) Illegal aliens are stealing american jobs
2) Illegal aliens will buy pizzas using pesos

Since when do american companies pay their employees in pesos?

Or since when do illegal aliens commute across the boarder? The ammount of peso's in the country from legal sources is larger than from illegal sources so why should a resturant not tap it?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Or since when do illegal aliens commute across the boarder? The ammount of peso's in the country from legal sources is larger than from illegal sources so why should a resturant not tap it?

I was thinking the same thing myself. The reason we have such a big illegal problem now is that instead of coming across for a picking season, a few months or a few years and then going back they're coming and staying as long as necessary. They may or may not have some Pesos on them when they first get here, but they won't for very long.

[pipelineaudio]

I realize that many of you bigots enjoy talking out your asses and make assumptions. I love to see them make fun with the old "they took our yobs"

Yes you are so clever

Anyhow. There are an entire class of people with a LOT of pesos over here, and theyre the ones you see paying at the pizza shop with the pesos

These arent people you want to know, but if you werent talking out your asses, you'd at least know who they were, and not be so smug in your doubting of their existence

[gtc]

Anyhow. There are an entire class of people with a LOT of pesos over here, and theyre the ones you see paying at the pizza shop with the pesos

Economic theory would suggest that at least some stores in the US would accept Pesos (particularly for discretionary purchases like Pizza) if:

People have Pesos;
Pesos can be exchanged fairly easily for US dollars;


I am surprised that this story is considered remarkable, can you tell me why?

Also can you tell me more about the people who pay with Pesos?
Are they long term residents, visitors, illegal workers etc?
How did they come by their pesos? Did they bring them with them or recieve them as presents from family or earn them in the US?

I don't know much about the Mexican/US border, but I do know about stores accepting foreign currency. I know from my brother's trip to Toronto and Buffalo that many stores accept both currencies but tend to pay change in the local currency. I also know that major department stores and shops in airports and tourist areas in many countries (including New Caledonia, Australia and the UK) accept foreign currency (sometimes at punitive exchange rates).

In Australia this practice is unremarkable. It is simply more convenient sometimes for the shopkeeper to exchange currencies after the transaction than for the customer to exchange currencies before the transaction.

[pipelineaudio]

There are two types of people with LARGE caches of pesos, that they sit on for long periods of time until the exchange rates become favorable. One is coyotes and the other is narcorrados. These you will find at the Pizza Petrones and village parties, acting like generals, buying their captains and soldiers pizzas and parties. Pesos are good for favors in this community as well, paying for stolen merchandise and general goodwill to the footsoldiers who recognize it as the currency they used all their lives and understand

[davefoc]

There are restrictions on businesses accepting private money.

Gaming chips used to circulate between the casinos, but the federal government forced them to stop the practice.

But if privately created money can't be circulated even when used in completely voluntary transactions, why can checks be used?

Not sure on what the rules are here.

As to the accepting peso controversy, put me with the people that think this is a ridiculous controversy. I've spent dollars all over the world, including at the Vatican (where they used a pretty fair exchange rate as I recall). I see absolutely no reason why American companies shouldn't accept foreign currencies if they so choose.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Anyhow. There are an entire class of people with a LOT of pesos over here, and theyre the ones you see paying at the pizza shop with the pesos

These arent people you want to know, but if you werent talking out your asses, you'd at least know who they were, and not be so smug in your doubting of their existence

So all these bad guys are hanging around in Dallas going to Pizza Patron and using their drug and human traffiking money to buy a large with sausage and jalapenos? GTFOH.

Most of the traffiking is done with dollars not Pesos. How many times do you see drug busts in the states where they open up wrapped bundles of Pesos? Dollars are the currency of choice for those who traffic in illegal shipments, be they people or drugs.

[pipelineaudio]

So all these bad guys are hanging around in Dallas going to Pizza Patron and using their drug and human traffiking money to buy a large with sausage and jalapenos? GTFOH.

They buy influence with pesos which may be near useless to them otherwise

Most of the traffiking is done with dollars not Pesos. How many times do you see drug busts in the states where they open up wrapped bundles of Pesos? Dollars are the currency of choice for those who traffic in illegal shipments, be they people or drugs.

Dont know how its done in your neck of the woods but here LARGE amounts of mexican money comes up with a worker or two to pay for the coyote and his settlement. American money is nice, but pesos work too and is often the only thing available

[TragicMonkey]

I would chalk it up as a victory for assimiliation if Mexicans in America are using Mexican money to buy pizza, and not Mexican food.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Dont know how its done in your neck of the woods but here LARGE amounts of mexican money comes up with a worker or two to pay for the coyote and his settlement. American money is nice, but pesos work too and is often the only thing available

Maybe you're closer to the border than I am, but in Dallas I have never heard of any robberies of Hispanic victims being reported as large amounts of Pesos nor have I heard of any criminals being arrested carrying large amounts of Pesos. About half my apartment compex is Hispanic, though I do live in North Dallas. I simply haven't seen any reportage on TV or in the Newspaper on Pesos being taken from illegals or criminals.

[CFLarsen]

Mexicans eating pizza?

The world is indeed coming to an end.

[ponderingturtle]

Anyhow. There are an entire class of people with a LOT of pesos over here, and theyre the ones you see paying at the pizza shop with the pesos


I am trying to figure out what you mean by this, but failing. Drug runners would have dolars not pesos, so I am not sure who you mean.

[ponderingturtle]

There are two types of people with LARGE caches of pesos, that they sit on for long periods of time until the exchange rates become favorable. One is coyotes and the other is narcorrados. These you will find at the Pizza Petrones and village parties, acting like generals, buying their captains and soldiers pizzas and parties. Pesos are good for favors in this community as well, paying for stolen merchandise and general goodwill to the footsoldiers who recognize it as the currency they used all their lives and understand

So they are idiots as well, as this guy is offering at worse than the exchange rate. Anyone who has large quantities of Peso's would not bother with this, becuase he is getting a worse exchange rate.

[ponderingturtle]

There are restrictions on businesses accepting private money.

Gaming chips used to circulate between the casinos, but the federal government forced them to stop the practice.

But if privately created money can't be circulated even when used in completely voluntary transactions, why can checks be used?

Not sure on what the rules are here.

As to the accepting peso controversy, put me with the people that think this is a ridiculous controversy. I've spent dollars all over the world, including at the Vatican (where they used a pretty fair exchange rate as I recall). I see absolutely no reason why American companies shouldn't accept foreign currencies if they so choose.

Don't you see it is the Almighty Dolar, and so should be the prefered currency of everyone the world over.

[ponderingturtle]

They buy influence with pesos which may be near useless to them otherwise



Dont know how its done in your neck of the woods but here LARGE amounts of mexican money comes up with a worker or two to pay for the coyote and his settlement. American money is nice, but pesos work too and is often the only thing available

A Coyote I could see haveing pesos but not a drug runner, unless the flow of drug across the boarder has suddenly reversed what I thought it was

[Lisa Simpson]

And now the pizza place is getting death threats and hate mail.

http://www.kptv.com/money/10726851/detail.html

[pipelineaudio]

I am trying to figure out what you mean by this, but failing. Drug runners would have dolars not pesos, so I am not sure who you mean.

I know it may be hard to believe that you dont know everything about the mexican border in new york, but I assure you, narcorrados often have LARGE amounts of pesos. It is often the only money available to them at the time a job is done, or a bonus, or just an easy grease for the rest of the operation.

[pipelineaudio]

So they are idiots as well, as this guy is offering at worse than the exchange rate. Anyone who has large quantities of Peso's would not bother with this, becuase he is getting a worse exchange rate.

When the pesos were gotten for almost nothing, and considered otherwise useless, a giant village party, or some pies sent around are great motivators for the troops

[CFLarsen]

And now the pizza place is getting death threats and hate mail.

http://www.kptv.com/money/10726851/detail.html

That must be some really bad pizzas...!

[Just thinking]

http://aboutpizza.com/images/mexicanholdingpizza.jpg

Ju want a pizza?

[ponderingturtle]

I know it may be hard to believe that you dont know everything about the mexican border in new york, but I assure you, narcorrados often have LARGE amounts of pesos. It is often the only money available to them at the time a job is done, or a bonus, or just an easy grease for the rest of the operation.

Fine you might well know a great ammount about the drug business I guess.

[ponderingturtle]

When the pesos were gotten for almost nothing, and considered otherwise useless, a giant village party, or some pies sent around are great motivators for the troops

What event are you reffering to?

[pipelineaudio]

What event are you reffering to?

Did I mention an event?

[slingblade]

No. In fact, you didn't even make a real sentence.

[pipelineaudio]

No. In fact, you didn't even make a real sentence.

thats helpful

[slingblade]

Who said I was trying to be helpful?

[tedly]

Mexicans eating pizza?

The world is indeed coming to an end.

Hey, when I was a kid I thought a Pizza bagel was a sign of assimilation.

I whipped through Gyros on a tortilla, and figured that when I saw a Thai pizza that would be it. I mentioned this in conversation and got "Hey, ya know who makes a good Thai pizza? Boston pizza!" It's the end of the world as we know it and it tastes FINE.

[UnrepentantSinner]

When the pesos were gotten for almost nothing, and considered otherwise useless, a giant village party, or some pies sent around are great motivators for the troops

You keep referring to villages and pies. There are no Pizza Padron's in Mexico, and there are none located in any town that would be called a village. So what the hell are you talking about?

And YGSM. Pizzas as payoffs for drug traffikers? Hahahahaha.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Mexicans eating pizza?

The world is indeed coming to an end.

Half of the clientelle at the super cheap Chinese buffets that I go to here for lunch is Hispanic. When one remits half of one's income back to Mexico, one tends to be on a diet.

[pipelineaudio]

You keep referring to villages and pies. There are no Pizza Padron's in Mexico, and there are none located in any town that would be called a village. So what the hell are you talking about?

And YGSM. Pizzas as payoffs for drug traffikers? Hahahahaha.

If you werent such a condescending ignoramus I might try and explain the coyote/narcorrado system to you, but you should know it well enough in texas.

A pizza as "trinkets for the troops" is no different than car stereos, spinners or village parties

[davefoc]

If you werent such a condescending ignoramus I might try and explain the coyote/narcorrado system to you, but you should know it well enough in texas.

A pizza as "trinkets for the troops" is no different than car stereos, spinners or village parties

With respect, I've been back through your posts a couple of times and I'm still not sure what your point is. Please feel free to call me a condescending ignoramus if you like (or some other epithet of your choice), but I would hope that you might also include some clues as to what you are talking about if you respond to this.

[pipelineaudio]

Please feel free to call me a condescending ignoramus if you like (or some other epithet of your choice),


WHy? You didnt say

Pizzas as payoffs for drug traffikers? Hahahahaha.

[UnrepentantSinner]

If you werent such a condescending ignoramus I might try and explain the coyote/narcorrado system to you, but you should know it well enough in texas.

A pizza as "trinkets for the troops" is no different than car stereos, spinners or village parties

Where the f*** are these villages with Pizza Padron's you keep referring to? I posted a link to the their website and every single location is in a large city. And there aren't a whole lot of Mexican "villages" in Texas and since we're discussing a American pizza establishment accepting Pesos in America why the hell do you keep referring to villages and coyotes and narcos running them? We have some crappy city council members, but we don't have any Man In The White Suit sending pizzas to police officer Garcia or Lopez for harassing an immigrant who's behind on his payment for crossing.

[Kopji]

I was in Cancun, Mexico at Thanksgiving. Funny, nobody there had any problems accepting my gringo dollars as tips.

Yeah.
I love talking with local business people when I travel. I asked some shop owners if they were offended by my paying in dollar bills. (Recommended SOP is to take lots of small bills). No problemo.

I was told that they liked US bills better than Pesos because of the stability of the dollar. They also said that it was a little harder for Mexicans to regularly use dollars for purchases than it was for us gringos, but dollars held their value well when stored in a savings box.

My most recent trip, just about everyone was taking plastic, and the transactions were in dollars not pesos.

Death threats against the pizza parlor seemed a bit extreme though. The pizza's looked fairly average, nothing to kill over.

[pipelineaudio]

Where the f*** are these villages with Pizza Padron's you keep referring to? I posted a link to the their website and every single location is in a large city. And there aren't a whole lot of Mexican "villages" in Texas and since we're discussing a American pizza establishment accepting Pesos in America why the hell do you keep referring to villages and coyotes and narcos running them? We have some crappy city council members, but we don't have any Man In The White Suit sending pizzas to police officer Garcia or Lopez for harassing an immigrant who's behind on his payment for crossing.

You sure you live in Texas?

When the coyotes move people in, they try to keep people from the same towns together. This means a neighborhood, housing project, or apartment complex becomes a "village", or Villa de Nortes. Soon these villages take on a name from the town their population comes from. Narcorrado groups build themselves up in these villages among those who dont want to work stolen jobs with stolen identities. Little generals grow in these villages and keep parties and favors for the troops.

If you have never seen this arrangement, it is pretty elaborate. Across the street from my house, friday and saturdays they rent a giant disco system, lights, sounds, the works. Tons of food. Noise in complete violation of the HOA. Birthday parties are HUGE affairs. Xmass and Easter the vilages are empty as the people are back in mexico. Every once in a while one of the soldiers will go a little too rambo and start pointing guns at the neighbors, but the little general takes care of the rogue soon enough (usually)

[UnrepentantSinner]

You sure you live in Texas?
<----------
Yea... North Dallas.

And they must to things differently closer to the border or in the barrios because none of my Hispanic neighbors goes back to Mexico on weekends. Either that or none of mine are illegals, or mules or enforcers for the narcos.

[Rasmus]

I am not sure I understand this. I was under the impression that crossing the border illegally held at least some risk of discovery.

Why would anyone who successfully made that trip risk two more every other weekend?

And just how much do you earn as an illegal immigrant that you can afford trips back home on a regular basis? Sending home some money I can understand, but making it a personal delivery? Wow, I'm impressed!

And how much these people must love their home communities. If *I* was an illegal immigrant and raked in so much cash, I would pretty quickly have my entire village over with me to enjoy the same benefits as I did. (Especially seeing how illegal crossing of the border is such a simple thing that I can safely do it on a weekly basis ...)

But if that is really how the average illegal immigrant lives and works, I can see where the complaints come fro I'd sure be pissed if I saw myself unable ti live the affluent life of an illegal immigrant myself ...

[pipelineaudio]

<----------
Yea... North Dallas.

And they must to things differently closer to the border or in the barrios because none of my Hispanic neighbors goes back to Mexico on weekends. Either that or none of mine are illegals, or mules or enforcers for the narcos.

Where do you get the impression they go back to mexico on the weekends? Usually only for xmass and sometimes easter

[ponderingturtle]

You keep referring to villages and pies. There are no Pizza Padron's in Mexico, and there are none located in any town that would be called a village. So what the hell are you talking about?

And YGSM. Pizzas as payoffs for drug traffikers? Hahahahaha.

He does not seem to be talking about anything as he refuses to clarify that statement. It seems to be some sort of metaphor, possibly about some strange philosophical position but I fail to see what that has to do with the real world.

[ponderingturtle]

Where the f*** are these villages with Pizza Padron's you keep referring to? I posted a link to the their website and every single location is in a large city. And there aren't a whole lot of Mexican "villages" in Texas and since we're discussing a American pizza establishment accepting Pesos in America why the hell do you keep referring to villages and coyotes and narcos running them? We have some crappy city council members, but we don't have any Man In The White Suit sending pizzas to police officer Garcia or Lopez for harassing an immigrant who's behind on his payment for crossing.

Not in your world anyway, in PLA's Texas that seems to be an everyday occurrence

[ponderingturtle]

I am not sure I understand this. I was under the impression that crossing the border illegally held at least some risk of discovery.

Why would anyone who successfully made that trip risk two more every other weekend?

And just how much do you earn as an illegal immigrant that you can afford trips back home on a regular basis? Sending home some money I can understand, but making it a personal delivery? Wow, I'm impressed!

And how much these people must love their home communities. If *I* was an illegal immigrant and raked in so much cash, I would pretty quickly have my entire village over with me to enjoy the same benefits as I did. (Especially seeing how illegal crossing of the border is such a simple thing that I can safely do it on a weekly basis ...)

But if that is really how the average illegal immigrant lives and works, I can see where the complaints come fro I'd sure be pissed if I saw myself unable ti live the affluent life of an illegal immigrant myself ...

No the thing is that everyone in mexico asside from the narcotics trafficers and coyote's uses dollars, this is a little know piece of trivia, so the pizza parlors are targeting the criminals because no one else uses pesos.

[slingblade]

Bigots are never easy to understand. Mindless, irrational bigots, even less so.

[pipelineaudio]

Not in your world anyway, in PLA's Texas that seems to be an everyday occurrence

In Arizona

Sorry that I keep forgetting New Yorkers are the be all end all authority of the Mexican border

[pipelineaudio]

He does not seem to be talking about anything as he refuses to clarify that statement. It seems to be some sort of metaphor, possibly about some strange philosophical position but I fail to see what that has to do with the real world.

did you miss post #90?

[pipelineaudio]

Bigots are never easy to understand. Mindless, irrational bigots, even less so.

The bigots around here become so mindless they mix immigration and illegal immigration, just as their media gods intend

[ponderingturtle]

did you miss post #90?

No, but you admited that your statement had no basis in reality already. You said it was not about any event after all.

[ponderingturtle]

The bigots around here become so mindless they mix immigration and illegal immigration, just as their media gods intend

And of course mix both of those with drug running as well.

[TragicMonkey]

Let's just all agree that having people from Arizona purchase, with Canadian dollars, a Mexican pizza topped with drugs from a pizza place in New York is both multicultural and bigoted. Especially if it's that Canadian money loaded with cameras and microscopic robots like was in the news.

[davefoc]

Let's just all agree that having people from Arizona purchase, with Canadian dollars, a Mexican pizza topped with drugs from a pizza place in New York is both multicultural and bigoted. Especially if it's that Canadian money loaded with cameras and microscopic robots like was in the news.

Of course that's true, but more simply: if people are allowed to use pesos in American restaurants, western civilization will cease to exist as we know it.

[TragicMonkey]

Of course that's true, but more simply: if people are allowed to use pesos in American restaurants, western civilization will cease to exist as we know it.

Mexico is part of Western Civilization, last time I checked.

[pipelineaudio]

I havent seen anyone around here argue against using pesos

Is it more BS that the bigots are assigning to the suffering?

We "rednecks" sure have no problem with the places taking pesos

[ponderingturtle]

I havent seen anyone around here argue against using pesos


YOu seemed to be saying that it was an attempt to cash in on the drug money in the area.

[pipelineaudio]

YOu seemed to be saying that it was an attempt to cash in on the drug money in the area.

Amazing what bigot minds will conject and conjure

[Art Vandelay]

Non Sequitur.I don't understand how.

If in fact a store stops its employees fom expressing holiday greetings (in the traditional sense) then I too would object.No one's stopping employeese from expressing holiday greetings, just providing guidelines for when they are at work.

And as you can see from the link, they clearly did not initially do what was best for business -- it was poilitcally motivated.I'm having trouble seeing that. Where in the world did you get that idea? It seems to be saying the opposite:

Last year’s decision by many retailers – including retail giant Wal-Mart – to curtail the use of “Merry Christmas” for fear of offending those who don’t celebrate the holiday caused a backlash from conservative Christian groups as well as consumers.

From a business point of view, this makes excellent sense:
Buying pesos at the rate of twelve to the dollar, then selling them at the rate of eleven to the dollar gives you about a nine percent profit. Not bad.Well, eight.

And the "inconvenience" of the pizza company having to convert the pesos to dollars really isn't all that bad. Link (https://www.xe.com/fx/).Most of the inconvenience isn't the actual trading. It's the assumption of risk, the paperwork, the embezzlement opportunities that need to be addressed, etc.

Quite a few businesses advertise that they exchange at higher than the going rate (of course these guys are usually overpriced and/or strip clubs). Which just is another way of saying that they exchange at lower than the going rate- for native currency.

And my non-sequitur comment still holds, as no one has shown Bill to disagree with most of us on this peso issue.You are the one posting non sequiturs, as no one has said that Bill has.

The Canadian Dollar in the U.S. represents commerce. The Mexican Peso in the U.S., however, becomes a symbol, another invasion. Since the objection to Mexicans stems from their role as producesrs, not consumers, the symbolism is a bit week. Someone with pesos almost certainly did not earn them here, and is creating jobs, not taking them.

I argued that Bill would not criticize them because he would likely agree that it is their right to accept whatever currency they want as a business.Then it is nota non sequitur to bring up instances of him critizing people for doing things that are their right to do.

It also may be a store's right to tell their employees to not wish anyone Merry Christmas; but one has nothing to do with the other, as a seasoned greeting is well established throughout history as being a common gesture during that time of year. You initially cited the issue of the rights of private business owners, and when someone responded to that, you called it a non sequitur. You are trying to justify that by introducing a completely different issue that wasn't previously brought up. It's also quite absurd for you to claim that they have "nothing to do with each other" merely because you can come up with one difference.

So far as I know restaurants (and all businesses) in the USA must accept US dollars as payment, but there is no law that forbids accepting other currency--or anything else, for that matter-as payment. If a pizza chain decides to accept euros, pesos, ruppees, mopnopoly money, or teddy bears as payment, it can.My understanding-- which may very well be flawed-- is that a company can refuse service until they given whatever payment they ask for (of whatever currrency), but if they render a service before taking payment, they must accept dollars as payment.

Gaming chips used to circulate between the casinos, but the federal government forced them to stop the practice. Really? Do you have more details?

I would chalk it up as a victory for assimiliation if Mexicans in America are using Mexican money to buy pizza, and not Mexican food.What if they use it to buy Mexican pizza from Taco Bell?

Mexico is part of Western Civilization, last time I checked.Last time you checked, you were wrong. "Western Civilization" refers to functioning liberal democracies. Western Europe, US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Israel, and maybe South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan.

[Cleon]

What if they use it to buy Mexican pizza from Taco Bell?

Then they have really, really bad taste.

[TragicMonkey]

What if they use it to buy Mexican pizza from Taco Bell?

That's not Mexican food.


Last time you checked, you were wrong. "Western Civilization" refers to functioning liberal democracies. Western Europe, US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Israel, and maybe South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan.

Western Civilization is all the cultures and societies that share a common foundation in ancient Greece, the Roman Empire, the European Middle Ages, and the Reformation and Enlightenment. Mexico was a Spanish colony. It's full of people speaking a Romance language, with a broad cultural base shared by the rest of Europe's children. It's Western Civilization.

You are confusing current the politico-cultural categorization "the West" with "Western Civilization". South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan are "the West" in some ways, but they are not "Western Civilization". Israel could make a case either way, seeing how much of it is comprised of former Europeans.

[Art Vandelay]

Pretty much every country was a European colony at some point or another. That doesn't make them part of Western Civilization. Furthermore, Spain was Catholic, making their colonization hardly one based on the Enlightenment and Reformation. All of the Mediterrean and most of the Middle East was part of the Greco-Roman sphere, but that doesn't make them part of Western Civilization, either. Mexico has a culture very different from the US', especially politically.

[TragicMonkey]

Pretty much every country was a European colony at some point or another. That doesn't make them part of Western Civilization.

No, it doesn't. But there's a difference between conquering something and calling it a colony, and sending in huge numbers of your population who then remake the place in their own image.

Furthermore, Spain was Catholic, making their colonization hardly one based on the Enlightenment and Reformation.

You can't have the Reformation without Catholicism, or the Counter Reformation. I was referring to passing through that period and inheriting the intellectual and cultural institutions therein, not acceptance of the entirety.

All of the Mediterrean and most of the Middle East was part of the Greco-Roman sphere, but that doesn't make them part of Western Civilization, either.

That's why I included the need to pass through the Middle Ages and following periods. And it's not all about rule or even influence. The Mongols conquered a lot of places, but that didn't make them culturally Mongolian.

Mexico has a culture very different from the US', especially politically.

Culture is a lot more than politics, and there is far more in common between the US and Mexico culturally than there is different. There is also a great deal of cultural difference and political difference between the US and France, and Britain and Germany. Are they not part of Western Civilization? You would have Japan counted as Western Civilization--you think Japan is more like the US than Mexico is?

[Cleon]

You would have Japan counted as Western Civilization--you think Japan is more like the US than Mexico is?

No kidding. Find something in Mexico--hell, the entire Western hemisphere--that is anything remotely like this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-feLDOpJfYg).

Japan might be in the Western sphere of influence, certainly economically, but it ain't the same civilization. Hell, after watching some anime at cons, I wonder if it's the same planet.

[fishbob]

No kidding. Find something in Mexico--hell, the entire Western hemisphere--that is anything remotely like this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-feLDOpJfYg).

Daleks are truly evil.
Don't. Ever. Post. Anything. Like. That. Again.

[ChristineR]

No kidding. Find something in Mexico--hell, the entire Western hemisphere--that is anything remotely like this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-feLDOpJfYg).

Japan might be in the Western sphere of influence, certainly economically, but it ain't the same civilization. Hell, after watching some anime at cons, I wonder if it's the same planet.

You need to watch some Filipino TV. I guess they technically aren't in the Western hemisphere, though almost count as a US colony.

[Art Vandelay]

No, it doesn't. But there's a difference between conquering something and calling it a colony, and sending in huge numbers of your population who then remake the place in their own image.The Spanish did the former, the English the latter. That's why Americans are "white" while Mexicans are "brown".

Culture is a lot more than politics, and there is far more in common between the US and Mexico culturally than there is different.But civilization is ultimately about politics.

You would have Japan counted as Western Civilization--you think Japan is more like the US than Mexico is?It's more civilized-- at least, according to Western standards of civilization.

[Cleon]

Daleks are truly evil.
Don't. Ever. Post. Anything. Like. That. Again.

Hey, we have a rep to maintain, y'know.

NAUS-E-ATE!

[davefoc]

In response to davefoc's mention that casino tokens can only be used and redeemed in the casino that issued them as per federal law:



Really? Do you have more details?



After, I posted that and nobody responded, I got curious and tried to find additional information.

I didn't find much except that it does appear to be a federal law and there is even a law that casinos are required to post a sign saying that casino tokens can not be redeemed outside the casino.

I remember reading an article about it when the regulation was put in place but it was a long time ago and I don't remember the time frame or the details. I thought the justification was something like only the federal government was authorized to make money and they didn't like the casinos doing it. But, if that was the justification, I don't know why writing checks would be legal.

[Art Vandelay]

I have a feeling that the issue was more the gambling than the making money. If chips are floating around, being used as currency, that makes money laundering easier. The difference between that and checks is that there's more of a money trail. To write a check for $100, you have to pay someone $100. In accounting speak, the debits and credits match up. But with casino chips, you can walk into a casino, and if you're lucky, walk out with a bunch more chips than you walked in with. If you can redeem them wherever, then that makes it a lot easier to not report the income, or for the person who takes them to claim it as gambling profit.

I don't know very much about casinos, but I would imagine that they are required to keep records of who buys their chips and who redeems them. In other words, there's probably a rule that casinos can't just hand currency out without recording it. Therefore, they can either record it every time they hand chips out, or they can have chips not be currency. That's just a guess.

[TragicMonkey]

The Spanish did the former, the English the latter. That's why Americans are "white" while Mexicans are "brown".

Civilization isn't about color, either.


But civilization is ultimately about politics.

No, it's not. Civilization is a lot bigger than politics. Your civilization doesn't cease to be if you change your political structures for a while. Italy didn't drop out of Western Civilization when it was under Mussolini. France was still part of Western Civilization when it was still a monarchy.

It's like asking what someone's like, and you're answering "he's a cop". Occupation is important, but it's not all-important. He wasn't always a cop, he's not always going to be a cop. Civilization is more like personality. Which can change over time, true. But it's far more fundamental than politics, even though it evolves over time from many causes including politics.


It's more civilized-- at least, according to Western standards of civilization.

That is a simple opinion statement. You wish to equate "Western Civilization" with "things I personally like" because you come from a nation that is part of Western Civilization. Japan is America's friend, because we can pick our friends, but Mexico is part of our family, like it or not.

[Antiquehunter]

On the topic of casino chips (or 'checks' as they are properly called)

Casinos cannot REDEEM another casino's checks. However, they can (and often do) accept them or exchange them for their own checks at the tables. In Vegas & Reno, there are a lot of folks who wander from casino to casino - so as a service to these entertainment-seeking gamblers, casinos will accept another casino's checks and then presumably, they go periodically and redeem them in the other property. The $1 slot tokens are generally totally transferable casino to casino. Although some casinos have unique tokens that work only in their machines, and won't work anywhere else, if you carry a bucket of $1 tokens while downtown you can probably lose them anywhere you want. (Of course, now most machines in Vegas are ticket-based with no more tokens....)

Note - you cannot use a casino check to pay a meal bill, buy a show ticket, or pay for your room. But, you can tip someone with a casino check. Are they currency? Well, as much as anything else they are I guess. But they are only redeemable for cash in the casino property that issued them.

On the OP - who cares what a restaurant chooses to accept as currency. They could accept ANY foreign currency they pleased, provided they were willing to deal with the overhead of maintaining a forex exchange rate list, training their minimum wage-paid staff how to calculate the rate, have an expertise to pick out conterfeits and demonetized notes. They could also swap pizzas for gold bullion, raw diamonds or baskets of kumqwats, if the business owner felt it was prudent. I swapped an emerald for 2 cases of wine at a winery in Mendocino, California last year!

Casinos in Reno accept Canadian dollars at the tables at favorable exchange rates. Is Reno losing its American identity? Or simply good at attracting gambling Canadians?

To suggest that this is an erosion of American identity is ludicrous.

[Art Vandelay]

Civilization isn't about color, either.You're the one who brought it up.

No, it's not. Civilization is a lot bigger than politics.In the broader sense of "politics", no it's not. In fact, "politics" comes from the Greek word for "city", while "civilization" comes from the Latin word for "city". Civilization is the condition of having well-formed relations between people, politics is the study of those relations.

Your civilization doesn't cease to be if you change your political structures for a while. Italy didn't drop out of Western Civilization when it was under Mussolini. France was still part of Western Civilization when it was still a monarchy. Politics is more than just who's in charge. You're attacking an absurd strawman. Of course your civilization doesn't go poof just because your government changes. Your civilization changes when the government changes. When Rwandas wanted to engage in genocide, they just took a bunch of machetes and started whacking. When Germany did it, they wrote up papers of deportation, processed detainees into concentration camps, etc. Even at the height of Nazi barbarity, Germany still retatined the trappings of "civilization". German culture still retained a sense that they should be respecting the Western values, even if they didn't always do so. When they were conquered, they reverted to democracy, as opposed to the Iraqis. Italians and Germans didn't suddenly completely change their political views after the war; clearly there was a thread of Western Civilization that survived independent of the rise of Fascism.

As for France being a monarchy, that hasn't been the case in over a century, has it? If you could take France of 200 years ago and transport it into today's world, I wouldn't consider it a "Western" country.

It's like asking what someone's like, and you're answering "he's a cop".Saying that it's a monarchy is like saying "he's a cop". Discussing the full range of politics would be like discussing his personality.

That is a simple opinion statement. You wish to equate "Western Civilization" with "things I personally like" because you come from a nation that is part of Western Civilization. Japan is America's friend, because we can pick our friends, but Mexico is part of our family, like it or not.That's kinda my point. Western Civilization is, by definition, that what is considered "civilized" (or, to use your phrase, "things we personally like") by Western people. Insofar as I am biased in my preferences due to being part of Western Civilization, I am, presumably, biased in favor of Western Civilization. Therefore, the claim that I am biased towards Japan simply supports the idea that it is part of Western Civilization. I don't get what your objection is.

In what way is Mexico our family, that India or South Africa are not?

[TragicMonkey]

You're the one who brought it up.

Did I? Where?

In the broader sense of "politics", no it's not. In fact, "politics" comes from the Greek word for "city", while "civilization" comes from the Latin word for "city". Civilization is the condition of having well-formed relations between people, politics is the study of those relations.

And "gymnasium" refers to nudity. The origin of words only means so much.

Politics is more than just who's in charge. You're attacking an absurd strawman. Of course your civilization doesn't go poof just because your government changes. Your civilization changes when the government changes.

It changes, yes. But it doesn't change into something completely different historically. Your civilization is the past and present. Short of annihiliation, you can't break off from the past, any more than you can stop being your parents' child. Even if you kill your parents, you're still their kid.

As for France being a monarchy, that hasn't been the case in over a century, has it? If you could take France of 200 years ago and transport it into today's world, I wouldn't consider it a "Western" country.

Once again, "Western" in the modern sense does not mean the same thing as "Western Civilization".

Saying that it's a monarchy is like saying "he's a cop". Discussing the full range of politics would be like discussing his personality.

We're clearly never going to agree because you overemphasize politics. Civilization is the sum of the history and culture of a people. It's a lot bigger than politics.

That's kinda my point. Western Civilization is, by definition, that what is considered "civilized" (or, to use your phrase, "things we personally like") by Western people.

No, it's not. That's "the West" in modern usage. There's a difference between a hatter's hat and a hat that is his. You're defining "West" in the modern sense of "the West" (as shorthand for US, Europe, and pals) and definining "civilization" in the usage of "that which reflects a standard of living and thinking that I approve of" then combining the two. "Western Civilization" means something else, not "the civilization of the West" in the way you're using it.

Insofar as I am biased in my preferences due to being part of Western Civilization, I am, presumably, biased in favor of Western Civilization. Therefore, the claim that I am biased towards Japan simply supports the idea that it is part of Western Civilization. I don't get what your objection is.

My objection is that you are unable to see beyond the extremely transient factor of politics. Civilization is long and slow and comprises huge swathes of time. Western Civilization is bigger than the countries that exist today, bigger than politics, bigger than "the West". Civilization is like geologic time. The current state of things is a single instant, so brief it barely registers in that scale.


In what way is Mexico our family, that India or South Africa are not?

South Africa is debatable. You'd have to determine how much of it is British and how much native African and how much Dutch and even German.

India, on the other hand, while heavily influenced by Western Civilization, probably isn't one of them.

As for Mexico, apart from their history, language, religion, beliefs, habits, customs, traditions, and philosophy, we don't have much in common. Just those things.

[Art Vandelay]

Did I? Where?No, it doesn't. But there's a difference between conquering something and calling it a colony, and sending in huge numbers of your population who then remake the place in their own image.

And "gymnasium" refers to nudity. The origin of words only means so much.Well, the certaintly is a higher level of nudity that is acceptable in a gym than in a corporate board room.

It changes, yes. But it doesn't change into something completely different historically.You seem to be simply repeating your strawman.

We're clearly never going to agree because you overemphasize politics. Civilization is the sum of the history and culture of a people. It's a lot bigger than politics. You seem to be politics is just who's in charge. Politics include the sum of history and culture that relates to civilization.

You're defining "West" in the modern sense of "the West" (as shorthand for US, Europe, and pals) and definining "civilization" in the usage of "that which reflects a standard of living and thinking that I approve of" then combining the two.When people claim that the death penalty is "uncivilized", are they claiming that it does not have a foundation in European and Greco-Roman heritage, or that it isn't something that they approve of?

My objection is that you are unable to see beyond the extremely transient factor of politics.Transient? Politics stretch through decades and longer.

Civilization is long and slow and comprises huge swathes of time. The US' cureent civilization is fundamentally different from that of a few centuries ago.

As for Mexico, apart from their history, language, religion, beliefs, habits, customs, traditions, and philosophy, we don't have much in common. Just those things.In all of those, there are huge differences. Having the US adopt Mexican way of life would mean the end of the world as Americans know it.

[TjW]

This morning's exchange rate is 1 goat = 43.2785 large cheese pizzas. If you want pepperoni, it's 38.4783.

You got change for a sheep?

[Ladewig]

Stephen Colbert came out against it.

[TragicMonkey]

You seem to be politics is just who's in charge. Politics include the sum of history and culture that relates to civilization.

You'd stick history and culture into the set "politics". I'm doing the reverse, sticking "politics" into the sets of history and culture.


When people claim that the death penalty is "uncivilized", are they claiming that it does not have a foundation in European and Greco-Roman heritage, or that it isn't something that they approve of?

Again, people use the same words to mean different things. "Western Civilization" is not "that which I find civilized that is in the west, except when its in the east".

Transient? Politics stretch through decades and longer.

And civilizations stretch through centuries. Are we still debating the slavery question? That was the big deal that dominated politics of a century-and-a-half ago. Today it's a nonissue.


The US' cureent civilization is fundamentally different from that of a few centuries ago.

Yes. But it's not a different civilization. You're fundamentally different from how you were at age six months. Are you a different person?


In all of those, there are huge differences. Having the US adopt Mexican way of life would mean the end of the world as Americans know it.

The end of the world? Good God, are you being hyperbolic or are you really that deluded? Do Mexicans practice polyandry, or human sacrifice? Do they eat only at night, or worship gods you've never heard of? Do they use an alphabet you can't even recognize? Are they a communist collective? Do they not use paper money? What exactly is the "Mexican way of life" that you think would be so inimical to Americans? Mexico has technology, it has a middle class, it has television and public schools and libraries and universities. It's not that different from America.

[Architect]

You got change for a sheep?

That depends. Do you mean American or Canadian sheep?

[Architect]

Are they a communist collective?


Of course if you're at one end of the US political spectrum, "communist collective" would mean free healthcare and other scurilous practices......
;)

[Mashuna]

That depends. Do you mean American or Canadian sheep?

What's the exchange rate from American to Welsh sheep?

[Architect]

Aha, but does it beat the rate for Australian Sheep?

[Art Vandelay]

Again, people use the same words to mean different things. "Western Civilization" is not "that which I find civilized that is in the west, except when its in the east".Do you think that this somehow represents my position?

And civilizations stretch through centuries. Are we still debating the slavery question? That was the big deal that dominated politics of a century-and-a-half ago. Today it's a nonissue.And in mind, that's such a huge change as to make it a different civilization.

You're fundamentally different from how you were at age six months. Are you a different person?You're begging the question.

The end of the world? As Americans know it. Look at the show Jericho. It's set in a "post-apocalyptic" US following a nuclear attack. Yet the characters are, in many ways, better off than most Mexicans.

Mexico has technology, it has a middle class, it has television and public schools and libraries and universities. It's not that different from America.And yet Mexicans are willing to risk their lives to escape. And while Mexico has, I suppose, a class that is in the middle of the Mexican population, they don't have a "middles class" in the sense of an American middle class. And much of what Mexico has they have because they're next to the US. If the US were to become Mexican, that quite possibly would be the end of Mexico as we know it, as well.

Oh, and Jericho had television, public schools, and libraries. No universities, but that's just because it wasn't large enough.

[Architect]

Just as an aside, I know of shops in Edinburgh (but only the tourist bit) who actually take US dollars.

Help! Help! It's the end of Scottish civilisation as we know it!!!!



Oh, just a minute. Marks and Spencers, together with a lot of other shops, take Euros too......I know, we're being Americanised AND Europanised (?) at the same time!

[TragicMonkey]

And in mind, that's such a huge change as to make it a different civilization.

Then we are clearly defining "a civilization" to mean different things. How many Roman Civilizations were there, in your opinion? Three? One for the monarchy, one for the Republic, and a third for the Empire? Or did Christianization make a fourth, and dividing up the territory make a fifth?


As Americans know it. Look at the show Jericho. It's set in a "post-apocalyptic" US following a nuclear attack. Yet the characters are, in many ways, better off than most Mexicans.

If you're judging a real country based on a fictitious television show set in another country, well, there's no actual sensible response.

And as for Americans on Mexico, you might notice that Mexico has the greatest population of Americans living abroad. 25% of all Americans living outside America are living in Mexico. Voluntarily. How bad can it be, then?


And yet Mexicans are willing to risk their lives to escape. And while Mexico has, I suppose, a class that is in the middle of the Mexican population, they don't have a "middles class" in the sense of an American middle class. And much of what Mexico has they have because they're next to the US. If the US were to become Mexican, that quite possibly would be the end of Mexico as we know it, as well.

Mexico has a middle class. They tend to not be emigrants because they are doing just fine in Mexico. Mexico's GDP is 13th in the world. Mexicans are not all poor villagers.

[brodski]

Help! Help! It's the end of Scottish civilisation as we know it!!!!


How could it end before it began. :p

[Architect]

How could it end before it began. :p

Says the nation that brought Benny Hill to the world! :p

[Lemastre]

Is it legal to take other than US currency in a transaction? I guess so but I think that might complicate things a bit. If you do take a goat as payment how is that accounted for, economy-wise? I mean, you have to pay taxes on the money you bring in when you sell something so that means you have to pay taxes if you bring in something other than money too.Transacting with foreign currency must be legal, because very possibly next door to the pizza shop is a "cambio" that makes its money by changing pesos and other currency into dollars and vice versa. Or maybe a bank whose foreign-currency window does the same thing. If I had a pocketful of pesos, I might even find the change I received from buying a pizza represented a better exchange rate than offered by the cambio or the bank.

I suspect businesses in border towns have been doing this for a long time. The fact that Dallas is rather farther from the border may be why it seems a novel idea.

In some areas, barter involving various produce, and goats, still goes on. The IRS hopes people will declare the money value of the stuff, but I suspect most of it is not reported, since it's usually not covered by W-2 forms or the like and is thus considered invisible to the IRS.

[Ladewig]

Transacting with foreign currency must be legal, because very possibly next door to the pizza shop is a "cambio" that makes its money by changing pesos and other currency into dollars and vice versa. Or maybe a bank whose foreign-currency window does the same thing. If I had a pocketful of pesos, I might even find the change I received from buying a pizza represented a better exchange rate than offered by the cambio or the bank.



To accept pesos for goods or services is completely legal. Giving dollars as change in such a transaction can be a crime in some states because that is considered changing currency which requires a license in certain jurisdictions. Texas is not one of those jurisdictions. The Dallas pizza chain is completely legal.

I heard quite a few callers to right-wing radio talk shows insist that accepting pesos was against the law. They are wrong.

[Art Vandelay]

If you're judging a real country based on a fictitious television show set in another country, well, there's no actual sensible response.I'm not judging based on a fictitious show, I'm judging based on the classification of the show in the real world.

And as for Americans on Mexico, you might notice that Mexico has the greatest population of Americans living abroad. 25% of all Americans living outside America are living in Mexico. Voluntarily. How bad can it be, then?It's fine if you have a lot of money.

Mexico's GDP is 13th in the world. Mexicans are not all poor villagers.And it's the 11th most populous country. So they're below average worldwide (and the worldwide average isn't very good to begin with).

[pipelineaudio]

most of the wealth is in the hands of the VERY few

WHen I was young, my mom ran the grant writing and fundraising for a mexican orphanage, Neustros Pequenos Hermanos. We traveled a lot down there and people could and did starve to death right on the streets, and noone gave them ANY care, except when the flies and maggots came thru their bodies and the odor made it hard to beg nearby.

In many places you cant even live off the land. MILES of countryside is completely decimated, the wood sold for firewood, the animals all eaten, even the tiniest grasses and weeds sold for stuffing. Yet the women are evil enough or stupid enough to continue squirting out babies, knowing they are dooming them to a torturous cruel life

sad situation all around

[Art Vandelay]

What are the attitudes towards birth control? Does the RCC hold a lot of sway in that area?

[brodski]

Deleted- my mistake, should have read the post in context

[brodski]

Says the nation that brought Benny Hill to the world! :p

I refuse to have my nation's and culture's contributions to comedy history be run down by a representative from the nation who's greatest contribution to light entrainment was the NAMBLA endorsed, psychoanalysts wet dream husband/ wife/ father/ son double act "the Krankies". :p

[pipelineaudio]

What are the attitudes towards birth control? Does the RCC hold a lot of sway in that area?

Even our orphanage was Catholic. Catholicism is still a BIG part of life, in many areas, morphed a bit to fit with local beliefs as well.
On the American side, where the smartest orphans were brought to go to school, they were housed in Yarnell, at the Shrine of St Joseph

Even for non religious types, this is an almost unbleieveable place which must be seen!!!! http://www.stjoseph-shrine.org/index.html

So for our orphans, they were definitely tied up in the church, and they certainly also had kids of their own...of course they were much better able to care for them, but still...

[Architect]

I refuse to have my nation's and culture's contributions to comedy history be run down by a representative from the nation who's greatest contribution to light entrainment was the NAMBLA endorsed, psychoanalysts wet dream husband/ wife/ father/ son double act "the Krankies". :p


:p

[Architect]

duplicate