Has Bush launched a secret war against Iran?

[hgc]

This post (http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001869.php) by Steve Clemons has me seriously worried. Just last night, Bush make a lot of aggressive grunts in Iran's direction, and now today US forces are raiding an Iranian consulate.

As Clemons puts it, "Bush may have pushed the escalation pedal more than any of us realize."

Is it too late for another intervention? The ISG intervention didn't seem to take.

[Overman]

ugh.
:(
WTF are we doing over there again?

[Darth Rotor]

This post (http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001869.php) by Steve Clemons has me seriously worried. Just last night, Bush make a lot of aggressive grunts in Iran's direction, and now today US forces are raiding an Iranian consulate.


This should be interesting, as more facts emerge . . . or don't.

I think Clemons is playing chicken little, and that this raid was tied explicitly to operations against fifth column activity in Iraq.
ugh.

WTF are we doing over there again?
Making Iraq safe for Kurds, so far.

DR

[firecoins]

I believe there has been a secret war against Iran for some time as is there one against North Korea. Than I have alot of stupid beliefs.

[l0rca]

Since we entered Iraq, I thought taking Iran's oil was the ultimate idea to begin with. If you look geographically, we now flank two main borders into Iran.

If we go in there, I'm going to start very vocally voicing my extreme dislike for Bush. They may be corrupt, but the only reason we'll go in there is for a monopoly on oil. Bush will officially be seen by me as a puppet of his masters.

[Tony]

Please god, make a corpse out of Bush before he has the chance to do more damage to America.

[Grammatron]

Since we entered Iraq, I thought taking Iran's oil was the ultimate idea to begin with. If you look geographically, we now flank two main borders into Iran.

If we go in there, I'm going to start very vocally voicing my extreme dislike for Bush. They may be corrupt, but the only reason we'll go in there is for a monopoly on oil. Bush will officially be seen by me as a puppet of his masters.

And we do do not go in?

[Tricky]

Please god, make a corpse out of Bush before he has the chance to do more damage to America.
Somehow, "President Cheney" doesn't have a much nicer ring to it. I'm frankly not sure Pelosi is up to the challenge either.

[Darth Rotor]

Since we entered Iraq, I thought taking Iran's oil was the ultimate idea to begin with.

Iran is reported due to run out of oil in 10-20 years. (Trouble with reserves and exploration, apparently.) Did you mean "taking Iraq's oil" was the aim? (Which I don't think it was, but never mind.)

DR

[Pardalis]

Please god, make a corpse out of Bush before he has the chance to do more damage to America.

I find this comment extremely distasteful.

[Darth Rotor]

I find this comment extremely distasteful.
Tony appears to have a thing for Dick Cheney as President. :eye-poppi

DR

[kalen]

Please god, make a corpse out of Bush before he has the chance to do more damage to America.

I'd be careful about making wishes like that. God might not exist and be listening, but the powers that be might construe that as a threat.

[Gurdur]

I find this comment extremely distasteful.
Paid any attention at all to the number of Iraqi civilians who have died since Bush went in there and effectively completely destabilized the whole region without managing to impose a new stability?

I realize narcissism may be attractive, but for hell's sakes, there are thousands upon thousands of civilians dead who would not be dead if it was not for Bush's inept adventurism.

THAT is what is "distasteful".

[Tony]

I find this comment extremely distasteful.

I find you extremely distasteful.

Please, don't personalize the issues.

[Pardalis]

As far as I know, advocating murder is not allowed here.

[Tony]

Somehow, "President Cheney" doesn't have a much nicer ring to it. I'm frankly not sure Pelosi is up to the challenge either.

As much of a dick Cheney is, I don't think he'll make as many colossal blunders as Bush.

[Tony]

As far as I know, advocating murder is not allowed here.

I never advocated murder.

[Tony]

I'd be careful about making wishes like that. God might not exist and be listening, but the powers that be might construe that as a threat.

The powers at this website or the powers in the US goverment?

[Gurdur]

As far as I know, advocating murder is not allowed here.
Oh, twaddle.
I've seen enough bigoted posts advocating turning entire regions into glass plates, or knocking off large numbers of collateral "raghead" civilians in order to get at the enemy, to realise that advocating murder is quite allowed here. Just depends on who you want to do.

[Pardalis]

I find you extremely distasteful.

Immature much?

[Tony]

Immature much?

Yes, yes you are.

[Pardalis]

Yes, yes you are.

Explain.

[hammegk]

Please god, make a corpse out of Bush before he has the chance to do more damage to America.
In case Echelon (or whatever the name is) missed it the first time.

[Beerina]

Paid any attention at all to the number of Iraqi civilians who have died since Bush went in there and effectively completely destabilized the whole region without managing to impose a new stability?

I realize narcissism may be attractive, but for hell's sakes, there are thousands upon thousands of civilians dead who would not be dead if it was not for Bush's inept adventurism.

THAT is what is "distasteful".

On the other hand, would you take a 1 in 600 chance of being killed in exchange for someone invading and ending the dictatorship you lived under?

[Tony]

Explain.

Well, for starters, you don't know what "advocate" and "murder" means. As evidenced by your misuse of those terms in post #15.

[Katana]

Well, for starters, you don't know what "advocate" and "murder" means. As evidenced by your misuse of those terms in post #15.

And your evidence that Pardalis is immature? That's what we're waiting for.

[l0rca]

Iran is reported due to run out of oil in 10-20 years. (Trouble with reserves and exploration, apparently.) Did you mean "taking Iraq's oil" was the aim? (Which I don't think it was, but never mind.)

DR

In the next 10-20 years, we may see an ice age, and the world may drastically change. Also, many other counties need this oil greatly. Having this monopoly, even if for a relatively short time, will devastate other countries if we so please.

[Pardalis]

Well, for starters, you don't know what "advocate" and "murder" means. As evidenced by your misuse of those terms in post #15.

In my understanding of the English language, "make a corpse out of Bush", implies murder.

[Gurdur]

And your evidence that Pardalis is immature? That's what we're waiting for.
Oh man, do you play silly games here or what? Sheeeesh. Pardelis can't be bothered answering several replies to him pointing out the moral absurdity, gets all prissy and thinks he has an actual point, has not even answered Tony's factual points, let alone any others, and only does the whole rhetoric garbage thing, and you think it's a winner. Meh.

[Pardalis]

Pardelis can't be bothered answering several replies to him pointing out the moral absurdity, gets all prissy and thinks he has an actual point, has not even answered Tony's factual points, let alone any others, and only does the whole rhetoric garbage thing, and you think it's a winner. Meh.

I didn't reply to you because your comments are irrelevant.

[Katana]

Oh man, do you play silly games here or what? Sheeeesh. Pardelis can't be bothered answering several replies to him pointing out the moral absurdity, gets all prissy and thinks he has an actual point, has not even answered Tony's factual points, let alone any others, and only does the whole rhetoric garbage thing, and you think it's a winner. Meh.

Another rant, Gurdur? Oh, well.

ETA: never mind the rest. Not worth the time.

[shemp]

Tony's not advocating murder. He's asking a (non-existent) deity to step in and throw down a thunderbolt or two in a ceratin direction. Asking for an act-of-god is not advocating murder.

However, I hope that doesn't happen. One of my greatest reasons for living is to one day see Bush, Cheney, Rice et al. tried by a jury of their peers and go to prison.

[Pardalis]

However, I hope that doesn't happen. One of my greatest reasons for living is to one day see Bush, Cheney, Rice et al. tried by a jury of their peers and go to prison.

Besides, in 100 years, the name Bush will have become synonymous with "fool" anyways.

[shemp]

Besides, in 100 years, the name Bush will have become synonymous with "fool" anyways.

It isn't already?

[Katana]

It isn't already?

I was going to say the same thing.

[Tony]

In my understanding of the English language, "make a corpse out of Bush", implies murder.

Then you have an extremely poor understanding of the english language.

[Tony]

However, I hope that doesn't happen. One of my greatest reasons for living is to one day see Bush, Cheney, Rice et al. tried by a jury of their peers and go to prison.

Good luck finding people as scummy and low to be considered their peers.

[hgc]

In my understanding of the English language, "make a corpse out of Bush", implies murder.
A masterpiece of incomplete quoting. Please supply Tony's entire quote and continue your kvetching.

[Pardalis]

A masterpiece of incomplete quoting. Please supply Tony's entire quote and continue your kvetching.

OK, enough already. Shemp explained it to me.

[Cello Man]

To answer the OP, if there is a secret war against Iran, don't count on it to stay secret for very long.

[hgc]

To answer the OP, if there is a secret war against Iran, don't count on it to stay secret for very long.
Of course the merkin people will be the last to know.

[Darth Rotor]

I find this comment extremely distasteful.
I find you extremely distasteful.

Then spit him out of your mouth. :D

Ba dump tsch!

(You so set that up. OK, OK, I know I should have resisted the impulse . . . )

As far as I know, advocating murder is not allowed here
He didn't. He wished for President Bush to go to Heaven, which is what President Bush, a practicing Protestant, wishes to do. He was being nice, when you look at it that way. OK, so their timing is off . . .
As much of a dick Cheney is, I don't think he'll make as many colossal blunders as Bush.
He was in on most of the blunders of the past 6 years, what makes you think he'll suddenly have flashes of brilliance?
However, I hope that doesn't happen. One of my greatest reasons for living is to one day see Bush, Cheney, Rice et al. tried by a jury of their peers and go to prison.
Their "peers" would meet them at the club for a glass of whiskey, and sentence them to late tee times. A jury might convict them, but their peers (in the real sense) rarely serve on juries.
Of course the merkin people will be the last to know.
Like Will Rogers, the 'merkin people only know what they read in the papers. Since it is already in the papers, it appears that they know.

DR

[Random]

On the other hand, would you take a 1 in 600 chance of being killed in exchange for someone invading and ending the dictatorship you lived under?

I believe that in Iraq, the odds are not as good as one in 600. Also, those chances would be taken by not only yourself, but also your spouse, children, parents, brothers, sisters, friends, co-workers, etc. Also, that sort of leaves out possibilities like forceful eviction from your home, imprisonment, torture, non-fatal injuries, starvation, disease, etc. Then there is the quality of life issue, a lot of regular people were simply better off personally under Saddam than they are now, and not just terrorists and insurgents.

And so on and so forth…

[Darth Rotor]

I believe that in Iraq, the odds are not as good as one in 600. Also, those chances would be taken by not only yourself, but also your spouse, children, parents, brothers, sisters, friends, co-workers, etc. Also, that sort of leaves out possibilities like forceful eviction from your home, imprisonment, torture, non-fatal injuries, starvation, disease, etc. Then there is the quality of life issue, a lot of regular people were simply better off personally under Saddam than they are now, and not just terrorists and insurgents.

And so on and so forth…
Depends on where you live in Iraq, but for the folks in and around Baghdad, I'd say your analysis is dead on.

DR

[aries]

You can't know this -- as - ahem - cough ---

this would, of course, cough -

be a secret.

[Solitaire]

This post (http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001869.php) by Steve Clemons has me seriously worried. Just last night, Bush make a lot of aggressive grunts in Iran's direction, and now today US forces are raiding an Iranian consulate.

As Clemons puts it, "Bush may have pushed the escalation pedal more than any of us realize."

Is it too late for another intervention? The ISG intervention didn't seem to take.
Oh, no.

Iran isn't much more stable than Iraq was twenty odd years ago. We knock them over and it'll look like Iraq with the United States trying to control another civil war.

Syria too? That'll put everything between Israel and India into chaos knocking out everything except for the Saudi oil fields.

Hm. Maybe his goal isn't oil production but ten dollar a gallon gasoline prices. Could that be it?

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

However, I hope that doesn't happen. One of my greatest reasons for living is to one day see Bush, Cheney, Rice et al. tried by a jury of their peers and go to prison.

Just out of curiosity, what specific crimes ought they be tried for? Being a crappy president isn't, to my knowledge, illegal.

[Darth Rotor]

Syria too? That'll put everything between Israel and India into chaos knocking out everything except for the Saudi oil fields.

Hm. Maybe his goal isn't oil production but ten dollar a gallon gasoline prices. Could that be it?
Ask Ted Stevens. :)

DR

[President Bush]

...make a copse (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/copse) out of Bush...
What family lore says 41 said to mom their wedding night.

[JonWhite]

He didn't. He wished for President Bush to go to Heaven, which is what President Bush, a practicing Protestant, wishes to do.

If only the Presidential Ape would realise that in the unlikely event his belief in God turns out to be correct, he's definately going down to the hot place not up to the fluffy clouds...

[Crossbow]

This post (http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001869.php) by Steve Clemons has me seriously worried. Just last night, Bush make a lot of aggressive grunts in Iran's direction, and now today US forces are raiding an Iranian consulate.

As Clemons puts it, "Bush may have pushed the escalation pedal more than any of us realize."

Is it too late for another intervention? The ISG intervention didn't seem to take.

Update!

I noticed at the Bush press conference that was held yesterday, that Bush has toned down his anti-Iran rhetoric a good bit by admitting that he does not know just who in Iran is responsible for supplying some of the Iranian weapons that have been found in Iraq.

Specifically:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/15/AR2007021500171.html

Bush: Iran Is Source of Deadly Weapons


WASHINGTON -- Challenged on the accuracy of U.S. intelligence, President Bush said Wednesday there is no doubt the Iranian government is providing armor-piercing weapons to kill American soldiers in Iraq. But he backed away from claims the top echelon of Iran's government was responsible.

...


I sure hope that this admission is actually the Bush method of telling us that he will not get us into yet another stupid war that we cannot win.

[Random]

Well, the problem the Bush administration is having right now is that people kind of remember the last trumped up war they started with innuendo and bloody shirt waving. So this time around, instead of yelling HOORAY! HOORAY! WAR! WAR!, the press is asking some very simple, basic questions about the administrations claims. This has of course paralyzed the administration. Unlike innuendo and bloody shirt waving, definitive claims sort of require some sort of proof or evidence, so they have to avoid them. But the press is looking for the definite claims, or at least someone who will go on record with any of this.

It doesn’t help that the basic narrative makes no sense to anyone with even a passing knowledge of the Middle East. Iranian Shiites so hate America that they are supplying weapons to Iraqi Sunnis to help them kill Iraqi Shiites and destabilize a pro-Iranian government? Wha? It is stupid on multiple levels.

This is not to say Bush can't start a war with Iran. He just needs to give the order to drop some bombs and away he goes. But he would like to have some sort of political cover first.

[President Bush]

Bush: Iran Is Source of Deadly Weapons
Iran does not manufacture 81mm mortar shells. According to a report offered by the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University, connected to the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at the neocon Brookings Institute, the smallest mortar produced by Iran is the 107mm M-30. This information is included in the JCSS’s “Middle East Military Balance,” updated last February. It can be read in this (http://www.tau.ac.il/jcss/balance/Iran.pdf) PDF file on page 15. According to JCSS, “The Middle East Military Balance has been the most authoritative source on Middle Eastern Armies since 1983.”

http://kucinich.us/node/2777
A PDF (http://www.usatoday.com/news/pdf/iran-in-iraq.pdf) from the US military with pictures and descriptions of Iranian support to insurgents shows "Iranian" 81mm mortar shells on page 11.

[Mephisto]

And we do do not go in?

Heh, heh, heh . . . you said do do. ;)

I've been paying attention to all the hype about Iran supplying Iraqi insurgents with weapons, so what? I'm sure Jordan, Syria and other middle-eastern countries are also supplying weapons to Iraq, (we're supplying weapons to Israel) why do we care only about Iran?

[Luke T.]

A PDF (http://www.usatoday.com/news/pdf/iran-in-iraq.pdf) from the US military with pictures and descriptions of Iranian support to insurgents shows "Iranian" 81mm mortar shells on page 11.

Retraction: Iran Does Make 81mm Mortar Shells


by Kurt Nimmo

I have received email indicating the Iranian Ammunition Industries Group manufactures and sells 81mm mortar shells, as indicated on this page. However, this does not diminish the argument that there is no definitive evidence Iran supplies weaponry to Iraq’s Shi’a militias, as originally stated.

http://www.truthring.org/?p=3488


While Iran has had some success in selling small arms, mortars and ammunition, it has not become a major player in the worlds arms sales. Much of the ammunition it sells is for American and European weapons (7.62mm rifle and machine-gun ammo, and 81mm mortar shells.) But even this sector, where Iran competed by offering lower prices, is being eroded as major producers like Russia are also beginning to sell lots of ammo for American weapons.

Dated May 14, 2004: http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htproc/articles/20040514.aspx

[Luke T.]

And the Middle East imports a lot of arms. From North Korea, for one. :)

ETA: From that last link:

Iran has bought billions of dollars from Russia, North Korea, China and former communist nations in Eastern Europe. These nations were Irans major suppliers during the 1980s war with Iraq as well, and have continued to sell Iran weapons. Only a few percent of weapons purchases were from Western Europe, and none (except for a few smuggled items) from the United States.

[billydkid]

Please god, make a corpse out of Bush before he has the chance to do more damage to America. Wow, I would be careful - seriously. In this day and age you have no idea what can get you into serious trouble or at least put you on the radar.

[Luke T.]

The Markina-based ECIA (renamed Nueva Ecia) shipped some ESP 3.500 million worth of arms to Iraq in 1982. ECIA also provided Saudi Arabia with 81 mm mortars in 1991, after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.

Dated April 2003:
http://members.freespeech.org/ehj/news/n_conpol_bg_apr03.html

[Crossbow]

A PDF (http://www.usatoday.com/news/pdf/iran-in-iraq.pdf) from the US military with pictures and descriptions of Iranian support to insurgents shows "Iranian" 81mm mortar shells on page 11.

Thanks for the data!

While it is quite useful in showing where the weapons were made, however the data does not show who supplied the weapons.

[Luke T.]

Can someone tell me the date this page (http://www.iranwatch.org/search/view_record.asp?sc=endusers&id=15) was last modified?

[rikzilla]

Please god, make a corpse out of Bush before he has the chance to do more damage to America.

Dear Flying Spaghetti Monster, PBUH

Please slowly tear off each of Tony's fingers with your mighty noodly appendages before he has a chance to do more damage to the forum of James Randi with his puerile and classless posts.

Thank you oh most beneficent one!
-z

[Luke T.]

Also, when was the last time this page (http://hrw.org/backgrounder/arms/cluster0405/6.htm) was modified?

It is dated April 2005 in the lower right corner, but I want to be sure.

Also, is that the official Human Rights Watch web site?

[rikzilla]

Telegraph article: (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/13/wiran13.xml)

Austrian sniper rifles that were exported to Iran have been discovered in the hands of Iraqi terrorists, The Daily Telegraph has learned.

More than 100 of the.50 calibre weapons, capable of penetrating body armour, have been discovered by American troops during raids.

A Steyr HS50 rifle, Austrian supplied rifles, arms trade, Iran equipping Iraq insurgents
The Steyr HS50 is a long range, high precision rifle

The guns were part of a shipment of 800 rifles that the Austrian company, Steyr-Mannlicher, exported legally to Iran last year.

The sale was condemned in Washington and London because officials were worried that the weapons would be used by insurgents against British and American troops.

Within 45 days of the first HS50 Steyr Mannlicher rifles arriving in Iran, an American officer in an armoured vehicle was shot dead by an Iraqi insurgent using the weapon.

Looks like there's pretty good evidence that Iran has had their own secret war going on in Iraq.....

-z

[Snide]

I believe that in Iraq, the odds are not as good as one in 600. Also, those chances would be taken by not only yourself, but also your spouse, children, parents, brothers, sisters, friends, co-workers, etc. Also, that sort of leaves out possibilities like forceful eviction from your home, imprisonment, torture, non-fatal injuries, starvation, disease, etc. Then there is the quality of life issue, a lot of regular people were simply better off personally under Saddam than they are now, and not just terrorists and insurgents.

And so on and so forth…Also, to "take" that chance, it would mean you are actually agreeing to do some of the fighting, which would certainly lower your odds of making it v. those who silently may (or may not) oppose a regime change.

[Snide]

Wow, I would be careful - seriously. In this day and age you have no idea what can get you into serious trouble or at least put you on the radar.That' the most reasonable response to Tony's post so far. We all know he's not advocating murder by asking a god he doesn't believe in, and no one else, to do it. But why even go there?

[Random]

Looks like there's pretty good evidence that Iran has had their own secret war going on in Iraq.....

-z

There are two questions here. Is Iran making these weapons? And how are these weapons getting into the hands of the insurgents? Bushco is trying to keep us focused on the first question and hope we don’t notice the second. But the second question is the important one. If the Iranian government is supplying weapons to anti-American insurgents, that is a much different matter than if they are just making these things and they are falling into the hands of the insurgents via third parties. The low-ranking supply clerk who secretly sells off a crate of these things to insurgents in exchange for a new satellite dish can hardly be said to be operating on behalf of the Iranian government.

There are serious flaws with the basic idea of Iran arming the insurgents. Most of the killing of American troops has been done by Sunnis, who are also attacking the Iraqi Shiite population. But the Iranian government is run by Shiites. Why would they give weapons to their enemies? The Sunnis are using these weapons to destabilize Iraq, but Iran would benefit from a stable Iraq. They might be trying to give America a bloody nose with some level on plausible deniability for cover, but with Captain Collateral Damage in the White House looking for a reason for war with Iran, this seems like a huge risk for little to no reward.

The fundamental premise just doesn’t make sense.

[rikzilla]

The sniper rifles are only a part of the evidence against Iran. There is also much evidence that precision Iranian milling machines are turning out super-IED's that can defeat the armor of an M1 main battle tank. There are also Iranian SA-18 shoulder fired missiles.

Your crafty low level supply clerk has been pretty busy...

-z

[rikzilla]

Evidence: Iran Supporting al-Qaeda in Iraq (http://rapidrecon.threatswatch.org/2007/01/evidence-iran-supporting-alqae/)

Contrary to the Iraq Study Group’s assertion that a stable Iraq is in Iran’s interests, what is now evidenced is tangible proof that Iran sees its interest as killing US forces and fostering Iraq’s instability through inciting and fomenting sectarian violence by fueling both sides.

This destabilizes the freely elected Iraqi government and, chiefly through frenzied media coverage of the violence Iran stirs, serves to erode US domestic support for action against the jihadiyun in Iraq today and elsewhere in the Middle East in the future.

[Huntster]

Has Bush launched a secret war against Iran?

Has Iran launched a secret war against Bush?

[Random]

Evidence: Iran Supporting al-Qaeda in Iraq (http://rapidrecon.threatswatch.org/2007/01/evidence-iran-supporting-alqae/)

Took a brief look at the blog post and the article that it was in reference to. First of all, there were holes big enough to drive a truck through. Between the various unnamed sources, assumptions couched as fact, and the one named source in the entire article saying that it was unlikely but he didn’t know, there is more than enough room for doubt. Another fine piece of reporting from the New York Sun.

Oh yeah, this article was from last month. Why were these wonderful documents not made public at the briefing this week? Would be a pretty important piece of the puzzle right?

[Darth Rotor]

Evidence: Iran Supporting al-Qaeda in Iraq (http://rapidrecon.threatswatch.org/2007/01/evidence-iran-supporting-alqae/)
I don't understand this sudden focus on Iran mucking about in Iraq. There was evidence of Irani influence in the South of Iraq, and of them looking elsewhere as folks crossed the border into Irq when I was over in the hot part of the world. That was in 2004. On the weapons thing, in detail, I am not competent to speak. Border infiltration was not just through Saudi and Syria.

The SA-18 is Russian made. Not Iranian made. Not sure of a pass through deal or not, but SA-18 is some Gucci kit.

If anything, these points should have been raised then, but they weren't.

Why?

Why wasn't Washington trumpeting this back then? Could it have been the election, and a calculated risk of what topics would come up for public debate during the critical weeks?

Or, did the recent nuke mess, 2005, get the ball rolling for the decision to broach the topic.

Damnit, there were roughly 200 Pasderan in Bosnia around the 94-95 time frame. It is not news that Iran plays the big game for big stakes.

DR

[peptoabysmal]

Somehow, "President Cheney" doesn't have a much nicer ring to it. I'm frankly not sure Pelosi is up to the challenge either.

At least Pelosi would finally get the airplane she wants. :p

[peptoabysmal]

Dear Flying Spaghetti Monster, PBUH

Please slowly tear off each of Tony's fingers with your mighty noodly appendages before he has a chance to do more damage to the forum of James Randi with his puerile and classless posts.

Thank you oh most beneficent one!
-z

Sheesh. What is it with this forum and Cthulhu worshippers? :D

[President Bush]

A PDF (http://www.usatoday.com/news/pdf/iran-in-iraq.pdf) from the US military with pictures and descriptions of Iranian support to insurgents shows "Iranian" 81mm mortar shells on page 11.
Retraction: Iran Does Make 81mm Mortar Shells


by Kurt Nimmo

I have received email indicating the Iranian Ammunition Industries Group manufactures and sells 81mm mortar shells, as indicated on this page. However, this does not diminish the argument that there is no definitive evidence Iran supplies weaponry to Iraq’s Shi’a militias, as originally stated.
Now this.

It was just yesterday I received an email indicating my assertion the Iranian 81mm mortar story—part and parcel of the neocon effort to finger Iran for killing U.S. soldiers in Iraq—was in error, as it appeared at first glance indeed an Iranian death merchant manufactured 81mm mortar shells, thus debunking my debunking of the neocon effort, not that it particularly matters as the neocons will bomb the smithereens out of Iran regardless of the transparency of their propaganda. In short, I ate a healthy serving of crow, and then set about removing my original post and adding a retraction.

But wait a minute. Not so fast.

In the meantime, Mike Rivero of the news site What Really Happened has completed a bit of investigative work into the supposed death merchant allegedly responsible for cranking out 81mm mortars, said to be in the arsenal of Iraq’s Shi’a militias.

Rivero takes note of spelling inconsistencies, errors, and awful fishy graphic and design details on the supposed death merchant page (see his post on the WRH site (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/)). Moreover, the “phone numbers on the contact page are all 7 digit numbers. But in July of 2005, Iran switched over to an 8-digit phone system,” Rivero explains. But what really cinches it is the IP information:

Information related to '213.176.96.0 -
213.176.96.255'

inetnum: 213.176.96.0 - 213.176.96.255
netname: MUT-AC-IR
descr: Malek Ashtar University
country: IR
admin-c: SR3653-RIPE
tech-c: MR6958-RIPE
status: ASSIGNED PA
mnt-by: IROST-MNT
mnt-lower: IROST-MNT
mnt-routes: IROST-MNT
source: RIPE Filtered

person: Shapour Rahimi
address: Malek-Ashtar University Tehran Iran
phone: +98 21 22944490
nic-hdl: SR3653-RIPE
source: RIPE Filtered

person: Masoud RanjbarZade
address: Malek-Ashtar University Tehran Iran
phone: +98 21 22944490
nic-hdl: MR6958-RIPE
source: RIPE Filtered

Information related to '213.176.64.0/18AS15611'

route: 213.176.64.0/18
descr: IROST-route
origin: AS15611
mnt-by: IROST-MNT
mnt-lower: IROST-MNT
source: RIPE Filtered

While it is possible the Malek Ashtar University is hosting a web page for an arms merchant, this is, to say the least, highly suspect. In short, the IP information alone leads me to believe there is something extremely fishy about this whole affair.

In response, I am removing my retraction until this can be explained—and for the moment, I will fall back on my original claim: the neocons have falsely attributed the 81mm to the Iranians. Short of more definitive evidence—not likely to come from people who specialize in fabrication evidence, that is to say trading in lies and deception—I maintain the whole thing is a ruse designed to finger Iran and thus build a pretext to bombard that nation.

http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=766
The truth is out there.

[Darth Rotor]

Now this.

The truth is out there.
WTC 7 Collapse: Controllled Demolition?
You have got to be kidding. You are sourcing from a CT site?

The IP info was indeed a curious bit of data, but where is your

Skepticism?

DR

[President Bush]

You have got to be kidding. You are sourcing from a CT site?

The IP info was indeed a curious bit of data, but where is your

Skepticism?

DR
Referencing what Luke posted.

[Luke T.]

Referencing what Luke posted.

Did you look at my following posts? Determining if the Ammunition Industries Group was for real. That's why I asked if anyone could tell when the Human Rights Watch site had last been modified and asking if it was the official HRW web site. According to the site, as of April 2005, the AIG was real.

I doubt HRW is part of the Bushco conspiracy machine.

Ammunition Industries Group (Iran)

http://hrw.org/backgrounder/arms/cluster0405/6.htm

[Luke T.]

Now this.

While it is possible the Malek Ashtar University is hosting a web page for an arms merchant, this is, to say the least, highly suspect. In short, the IP information alone leads me to believe there is something extremely fishy about this whole affair.
The truth is out there.

We don't know that web site hosting is the same in Iran as it is in the U.S.

Perhaps an investigation of another Iranian web site IP address would tell us something. Anyone know how to do that?

[Luke T.]

Now this.

Rivero takes note of spelling inconsistencies, errors, and awful fishy graphic and design details on the supposed death merchant page (see his post on the WRH site). Moreover, the “phone numbers on the contact page are all 7 digit numbers. But in July of 2005, Iran switched over to an 8-digit phone system,” Rivero explains. But what really cinches it is the IP information:
The truth is out there.

Could the spelling errors be the result of Iranians writing in English as a second language?

Also:
Company Name: Ammunition Industries Group(AMIG)
Managing Director:Bokhar Mohammad
Activity:Production of Small Arms,Artilleries,Miscellaneous Products
Head Office Address:Mahan Industries,Magham St.,Pasdaran Crossroad,Pasdaran Ave.,Tehran,Iran
Tel:+98 21 22562580
Fax:+98 21 22553575
E-mail: export@iramig.com
Web Site: http://www.iramig.com

http://www.iran-export.com/Sections/exportdirectory/Defensive/1/

Hmmm. Eight digit phone number.

[Luke T.]

Wednesday, 19 June 2002
What are written answers?
Defence
Licence Production Agreements (Iran)

All Written Answers on 19 Jun 2002

Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley, Labour)
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence

(1) what licence production agreements have been signed with the (a) Ammunition Industries Group (Iran) and (b) Defence Industries Organisation of Iran for the production of L2A2 rubber or plastic baton rounds since 1972;

(2) what licence production agreements have been signed with Iran for the production of (a) rubber and (b) plastic baton rounds since 1972.


Lewis Moonie (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Ministry of Defence)
The Ministry of Defence does not hold systematic records of commercial licence agreements. A more detailed search in files going back to 1972 could be provided only at disproportionate cost and any commercially confidential information would be protected under third party's commercial confidences in Part II Section 13 of the Code of Practice on Access to Government Information.


http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2002-06-19.62182.h

[Luke T.]

Two Iranian defence firms,
Ammunition Industries Group, ‘a leading
ammunition manufacturer in Iran’, and
Defence Industries Organization,
‘sheltering your troop, your pocket too’,
both took out adverts in the Janes Defence
Weekly distributed at the arms fair.

http://www.caat.org.uk/caatnews/CAATnews180.pdf

Campaign Against Arms Trade (CAAT) magazine, Oct-Nov 2003 issue.

[Luke T.]

Insufficient information is available about the design
features and reliability of cluster weapons produced
by the largest ammunition companies in India (Indian
Ordnance Factories) and Pakistan (Pakistan Ordnance
Factories). No information is available about the
reliability of cluster weapons produced by the
Ammunition Industries Group (AMIG) of the Iranian
Defence Industries Organisation (DIO). Neither is
information available about submunition technology
held by companies known to produce cluster weapons
in other countries with highly in-transparent arms
industries, such as Russia and China.

http://www.passievoorvrede.nl/upload/wapens/report_cluster_weapons.pdf

Can't find a date, but this is a publication from something called "Pax christi Netherlands". And it is critical of cluster bomb makers.

[Luke T.]

Manufacturer
Ammunition Industries Group (AMIG)
Ball: 9.45 g; MV 837 m/s
Tracer: 9.3 g; MV 834 m/s

http://www.armslocker.com/forums/showpost.php?p=118138&postcount=1

Arms locker forum, 03-Feb-2004

[Luke T.]

So what do you guys think? Ammunition Industries Group of Iran a real company?

Anyone have an online subscription to Jane's? :)

[Crossbow]

The Iraqi Insurgents are awash in so much money, that I am sure that they have multiple sources of weapons and that there are many, many arms dealers who are quite willing to supply the goods.

It is all too easy to forge paperwork, misdirect shipments, rob armories, bribe officials to look the other way, or simply smuggle things into Iraq.

[Random]

The Iraqi Insurgents are awash in so much money, that I am sure that they have multiple sources of weapons and that there are many, many arms dealers who are quite willing to supply the goods.

It is all too easy to forge paperwork, misdirect shipments, rob armories, bribe officials to look the other way, or simply smuggle things into Iraq.

Exactly. These weapons could have gotten into the hands of any of these various groups through any number of methods. Methods that do not involve the active effort of the Iranian government. Bush has given us A, and he has given us Z, but he hasn’t given us the letters is between.

[President Bush]

So what do you guys think? Ammunition Industries Group of Iran a real company?
Seems to be a subsidiary of Iran’s Defense Industries Organization. Both the Farsi (http://www.diomil.ir/fa/home.aspx) and Arabic (http://www.diomil.ir/ar/home.aspx) versions of their English language web site (http://www.diomil.ir/en/home.aspx) are under construction.

Odd.

In case anybody is wondering what the hubbub behind this minutia is, somewhat of an explanation is here (http://uggabugga.blogspot.com/2007/02/manufactured-evidencein-immediate.html).