A world without marriage

[Wolfman]

I hear all sorts of perspectives on marriage. Those who think monogamy is the proper standard, those who think monogamy is a tool used to oppress women, those who think that polygamy is terrible, those who think that polygamy is natural, etc.

But virtually ever culture in the world has some form of marriage...a concept in which a life-long union is idealized, where there are formal ceremonies to 'sanctify' a man and a woman (or multiples thereof). Cultures where, from childhood, children are raised and taught these ideals to the point where most of us think it is a natural part of human nature. The FORM of marriage may differ from culture to culture, but it is consistent throughout our cultures.

That is, except for at least one very unique culture, the Mosuo, a Chinese minority group who live in the Himalayan mountains, close to the border with Tibet. Two years ago, I established a non-profit organization to work with the Mosuo, focusing on a variety of aspects (education, development, etc.), but also on promoting awareness of their culture, and to trying to preserve it.

In the Mosuo culture, there is no marriage. No marriage ceremonies exist. There is no expectation whatsoever of life-time bonds or pairings. Children are raised not only without an expectation of spending their life with that one special person, but they often don't even know (or care) who their biological father is.

In the Mosuo culture, men and women can change and choose partners as they please. Monogamy is not considered special or even particularly desirable. The Mosuo live in large extended families, with many generations (grandparents, parents, children, grandchildren, etc.) all living together in the same house. Men sleep in communal sleeping rooms (they don't have private bedrooms); only the women have the luxury of a private bedroom. Thus, women tend to the the ones in control of relationships.

Traditionally, a Mosuo woman will invite a man to spend the night with her. The man will come to her home at night, sneaking in through her window (it is also a part of the Mosuo culture that, while everyone knows this is happening, it should be done in a manner that is not obvious), spending the night, and then leaving early the next morning before everyone wakes up. Thus the term "walking marriage"...because the men must walk to and from their assigned rendevous each night.

The Mosuo walking marriages are generally the most interesting -- and misunderstood -- aspects of Mosuo culture. People are always fascinated by it, but misunderstandings and misperceptions abound.

One of the most common misperceptions is that the Mosuo are very promiscuous, changing partners all the time. That is patently not true; in fact, many Mosuo pairing will last for years, and even decades. There is no social stigma if someone DOES change partners often, but it is more common for the Mosuo to engage in what has been described as "serial monogamy"...that is, they don't stick with one partner for their whole life, but each pairing will tend to last for an extended period, and they won't generally have multiple partners while in a relationship.

However, there are fascinating and very unique aspects of these walking marriages.

First, even among couples who are together for months/years/decades, they generally will never actually live together, or share property. The man will continue to live in his family's home, and his responsibilities are to that family; while the woman will continue to live her her home, and be responsible to her family. The man will visit her at night, but the rest of the time they generally live separate lives.

And what if they have a baby? In general, fathers have little or no responsibility for children produced from such unions; the baby will be raised in the mother's home, and be a part of her family, not the father's. However, that does not mean that the men have no responsibility...it is just that the focus of that responsibility is shifted.

In most cultures, a man will be responsible to care for his own children; in Mosuo culture, a man is responsible to care for the children of his sisters/nieces/aunts/etc. So Mosuo men still have full parenting responsibilities...perhaps even moreso, since they may end up sharing responsibility for the children of many family members.

Now, in some cases, Mosuo men DO want to be involved in their own childrens' upbringing. If that is the case, after the child is born, the father will go to the mother's home, and present the family matriarch with gifts, asking to be accepted as the father. If the matriarch accepts him, he is then an 'honorary member' of the family, and has the right to visit and/or stay there like any other family member, and to help raise the child. However, this is not a frequent practice.

Although this sounds very strange at first, it actually provides remarkable stability for the children. First, they are not raised by just one parent; everyone in the family shares in parental duties, so the child really ends up having multiple father and mother figures. Furthermore, if the mother and father end their relationship, there is virtually no impact or stress for the child. There's no fighting over splitting property, because they never shared property. There's no fighting over custody of the child, because the child never belonged to the father to begin with. The mother's relationships with different men may change, but it has little or no effect on the children.

One more thing I'd like to point out. While this system actually works very effectively for the Mosuo, it works ONLY in a situation where there is a large extended family to provide support. For those Mosuo men and women who leave home to live/work on their own in other cities, they almost always choose more traditional marriage. After all, caring for a baby without its father when you have 20 other people in your home to help you is one thing; caring for a baby without its father when you live by yourself is another matter entirely.

For more information about the Mosuo, their culture, and our work with them, you can check out our organization's website (http://www.mosuoproject.org). And I welcome questions and comments about this, or other aspects of Mosuo culture.

[steverino]

Three comments:

1) Based on the photo in your link, I might crawl through the window for
the third girl from the left.

2) As I am a struggling wedding photographer, this society would have no use for my skills.

3) There is no such expression as "very unique."


Sarcasm aside, your life makes mine seem even drabber. Thanks!:o

[Wolfman]

Thanks, steverino!
Three comments:

1) Based on the photo in your link, I might crawl through the window for
the third girl from the left. Actually, that is my "sister"...her family have essentially adopted me as their son, I stay at their home every time I visit. I can arrange introductions if you like...

2) As I am a struggling wedding photographer, this society would have no use for my skills. Yup, not exactly a high demand profession up there...

3) There is no such expression as "very unique." *blushing* Ummmm...put that down to writing this at around 1:30 in the morning China time...


Sarcasm aside, your life makes mine seem even drabber. Thanks!:o Pleased to be of service! :D

[bluess]

Wow.

How cool is that culture? And how cool for you to work there. No, I have nothing of import or substance to add.

[Piscivore]

Do they make bicycles for fish? :)

[steverino]

Wolfman. Dude! Hey, you could introduce me to your "sister" and she and I could fall in love and get married, eh? (OOPS! Never mind.:( )

[steverino]

Hey, I saw her first...Get lost!

[Wolfman]

One thing I forgot to mention...

...the Mosuo have a matriarchal/matrilineal culture, in which the woman is the head of the house, and lineage is traced through the mother's side of the family. Before my first experience with the Mosuo, I'd always assumed that men in a matriarchal culture would be somewhat emasculated...sissified versions of a 'real man' in other cultures.

Yet Mosuo men are very 'masculine'...kinda' like the cowboys of the Himalayas. When I first when there, I asked some of them how they felt about women being in charge of the house, money, decisions, etc. Most men replied that they had no problem with it...that men had muscles, so men's work was that work which required strength and endurance. Women had brains, so women's work was that work which required thinking and calculation.

Interestingly enough, unlike almost every other culture in the world, Mosuo females consistently outperform Mosuo males on mathematic and scientific tests...a rather interesting indication of how much of a role gender modeling can play in a child's development.

[Wolfman]

Hey, I saw her first...Get lost!
Dude, you've got an incredible eye...no kidding, she is my "Mosuo mother" (I really am not joking). And while the Mosuo are quite loose in regards to relationships, they would have problems with a guy who did a mother and daughter in the same family ;)

[steverino]

I asked some of them how they felt about women being in charge of the house, money, decisions, etc. Most men replied that they had no problem with it...Women had brains, so women's work was that work which required thinking and calculation.

Like when Hillary becomes president.

[bluess]

So how do they court? Is there a dating process, or is hooking up based on daily interaction? How much daily interaction would a woman have with men outside of her household?

[Darth Rotor]

Interestingly enough, unlike almost every other culture in the world, Mosuo females consistently outperform Mosuo males on mathematic and scientific tests...a rather interesting indication of how much of a role gender modeling can play in a child's development.
I take it there is no "men's liberation" movement underway to overturn this blatantly sexist, discriminatory behavior that dooms these men to not be scientists and doctors? :p J/K

Love your OP, Wolfman, this is very interesting. I think there is a similar structure, or was, among some of the Aleut tribes. Cant remember the details.

DR

[Wolfman]

So how do they court? Is there a dating process, or is hooking up based on daily interaction? How much daily interaction would a woman have with men outside of her household?
Yes, there's lots of daily interaction, and the 'dating' process in public would be similar to that in other countries...flirting with each other, holding hands, etc. That part of the relationship is quite public; it is the sexual aspect that is done in the woman's bedroom, and which tends to be done 'on the sly' (which is a hilarious concept...the whole culture is based on walking marriages, yet the men still have to 'sneak' in after lights out).

Traditionally, there are two main ways for a woman to indicate her interest in a particular guy. One way would be while dancing (which is done in large groups), or other social activities, to tickle the bottom of his palm with her index finger. Guys can also take some initiative by presenting their belt (a wide, brightly colored hand-woven belt) to a girl...if she's interested in him, she can hang it outside her window, indicating that he's invited in for the night.

Of course, in many cases, they just talk about it directly, and make suitable arrangements.

[Wolfman]

I take it there is no "men's liberation" movement underway to overturn this blatantly sexist, discriminatory behavior that dooms these men to not be scientists and doctors? :p J/K
Thanks for the light note...however, the actual answer is rather humorous, also. In my experience, many of the Mosuo men I've talked with would find such a thought ridiculous. Just as a typical western man may see things like knitting and sewing as "women's work", and not suitable for a man, so many Mosuo men have the same view of things like mathematics. It's not "man's work" to just sit and write on paper, and think about things; a "real man" is out cutting logs, building houses, riding horses, etc.

[KingMerv00]

Traditionally, there are two main ways for a woman to indicate her interest in a particular guy. One way would be while dancing (which is done in large groups), or other social activities, to tickle the bottom of his palm with her index finger. Guys can also take some initiative by presenting their belt (a wide, brightly colored hand-woven belt) to a girl...if she's interested in him, she can hang it outside her window, indicating that he's invited in for the night.

Of course, in many cases, they just talk about it directly, and make suitable arrangements.

See...I like this. Women in America are too frickin subtle.

[steverino]

to tickle the bottom of his palm with her index finger.

I can see Mike Tyson in court, his lawyer says, "Your honor. She tickled his palm with her finger, so even though she said 'NO' she meant 'YES.'"

[Kaylee]

Great OP and great web site! How did the organization get started?

[Wolfman]

Great OP and great web site! How did the organization get started?
My abiding interest/passion is culture. I studied Cross Cultural Studies in university, and have worked as a cross cultural consultant in China for the past 10 years.

I had heard about the Mosuo for many years, but it is not easy to get to where they live...and if I went there, I wanted to have time to actually spend there and learn about them, not just do the tourist quickie in-and-out thing. Two and a half years ago, I found myself with a month of free time, with no commitments, so on the spur of the moment, I went.

I ended up staying in a Mosuo family's home (the Mosuo family mentioned above who "adopted" me) for three weeks, in a tiny little Mosuo village high in the Himalayas. It was one of the most fascinating and enriching experiences of my life. The Mosuo were very open and frank in discussing their beliefs and customs (although they do have certain taboos...topics related to romance and sex are not discussed when men and women from the same family are together), and I found it such a different way of viewing life, relationships, etc. I've studied culture for most of my life, and knew how much cultures can differ, but this was the first time I'd been in a culture that challenged so much of what I considered to be "innate" human behavior.

My family was also incredibly generous. This is a village where average annual incomes are less than $US 100. By their standards, I was a multimillionaire. And I was more than willing to pay for accommodations, food, etc. Yet after living in their home for three weeks, being fed every day, being taken around to see how they worked/lived, etc., they absolutely refused to take a single cent from me. And my Mosuo mother actually cried as I was leaving.

Of course, I was fascinated by the many unique aspects of the culture, but was also struck by how hard they were working to improve their situation, especially for their children. These were not people sitting on their asses waiting for handouts, they were doing everything they could, and making tremendous personal sacrifices to do it. But they simply lacked the resources and knowledge to accomplish very much.

Let me give you some background. Many Mosuo villages still have no electricity. Most have no running water. Transportation to all but the most developed areas is by horse trails. Living with the Mosuo is very much like literally stepping backwards in time 100 years or more.

On my second week there, one night, the Mosuo I was with started asking me questions about my life, and how I lived. At one point, not really thinking about it, I mentioned that on a typical Friday night going out with my friends, I might spend $100-200. There was a gasp of amazement...for some of them, this represented a year's income. And it was then that I realized both how much of a barrier they faced, and how much could be accomplished with relatively little money.

I returned to Beijing, and mulled this over. The culture was an amazing one. The people had captured my heart. And I was determined to do something to help. But I didn't want it to be a case of some outsider just pushing his way in and "improving" things according to how "I think it should be". So six months later, I returned, and this time I set up meetings with key Mosuo leaders -- leaders in government, education, culture, etc. I proposed to them that we set up an organization in which they are the ones in charge. They determine the priorities. They set the standards. They oversee the projects.

My goal was, after they had decided WHAT they wanted to do, to help them get the money and resources to accomplish those goals.

That is a core principle of our association, and one I stick to adamantly.

Another question/issue that frequently comes up in this context is that of "Should you do anything at all? Isn't it better to keep them the way they are, to preserve their culture unchanged, to protect them from the outside world?" And yeah, there's a part of me that thinks that way sometimes.

But in the end -- it is THEIR culture, and THEIR lives. Not mine. Not anyone else's. And it is up to them to choose what they want to do. In my opinion, the most important thing I've given to them is the ability and freedom to choose for themselves. Some will choose to stick strictly to old traditions and beliefs. Some will abandon their culture entirely as they strike out into the exciting "bigger world". But I believe the majority will find a suitable balance between their traditions, and the influences of the outside world.

[bluess]

Wolfman. You rock.

[Thanz]

While their way of life holds no particular allure to me (my job consists of sitting, writing on paper and thinking about things, I am allergic to horses, my greatest joy is my western traditional family of my wife and 2 daughters) I applaud your efforts to provide as unobtrusive assistance to these people as possible. Diversity of cultures and thinking is a Good Thing, and I like your organizations emphasis on putting them in control.

I would suggest that you don't worry about people who suggest that you try to protect them somehow from the outside world. If the Mosuo don't want you or your organization's help, I am sure they are quite capable of telling you to get lost.

[pgwenthold]

Have they accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior?

[Wolfman]

Have they accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior?
Ummm...don't really have a clue what to make of that. But will clarify that one of our organization's most basic principles is that nobody working with us is allowed to engage in religious proseletyzation. People working with our organization are expected to come in with a respect for Mosuo beliefs, not to impose their beliefs on them.

And on the topic of religion, the Mosuo actually have two religions: they have their own native religion called Daba, which is an animistic, ancestor worship type of religion; and they have Tibetan Buddhism (an interesting bit of trivia, one of the designated "living buddhas" recognized by the Tibetan religious leaders is a Mosuo man).

On a day-to-day basis, Tibetan Buddhism plays a much greater role in their lives. Buddhist monks walk the streets, there are monasteries for teaching and housing monks, prayer flags wave from the branches of every tree, old women walk the streets spinning prayer wheels, etc.

Daba is practiced on a more ritual basis...for births, deaths, naming ceremonies, sickness, etc., the Daba priest will be called in to perform the relevant ceremonies.

[Wolfman]

I want to talk also about what is, to me, one of our most exciting (and challenging) projects. The Mosuo have their own language, but it is a purely oral language, with no written form. Their entire history/culture/tradition is preserved in the form of oral tradition, passed down from generation to generation.

Typically, it is learned by the Daba priests, who are expected to go through a lengthy (ie. decades) apprenticeship, learning by rote all the information that comprises their oral history and tradition. However, when the Communists took over in China, they made all religions illegal, and any Daba priests who tried to pass their knowledge on to the next generation were punished and imprisoned. The result is that today there are only about 15-20 Daba priests left, most of whom are very elderly. As each one dies, a huge portion of Mosuo history, culture, and tradition dies with them. (A note, the Daba religion is no longer illegal)

In addition, under modern Chinese law, students from Chinese minorities have the right to have a certain portion of their education done in their native language...but without a written language, it is impossible to create textbooks (and without textbooks, the gov't cannot authorize the curriculum, so nothing can be taught).

For this reason, we are bringing in linguists to analyze the Mosuo language, break it down into its component phonemes, and then develop a written system, which will then be taught to the Mosuo. I think, out of everything we are doing, this is the project that is closest to my heart. I try to keep from letting ego have too much of a role in what I do, but I have to say that it is very much a dream of mine that in 20 years or so, I'll be able to go to Mosuo schools and see Mosuo children reading and writing in their own language, and be able to know that I had something to do with that.

[pgwenthold]

Ummm...don't really have a clue what to make of that. But will clarify that one of our organization's most basic principles is that nobody working with us is allowed to engage in religious proseletyzation. People working with our organization are expected to come in with a respect for Mosuo beliefs, not to impose their beliefs on them.

And on the topic of religion, the Mosuo actually have two religions: they have their own native religion called Daba, which is an animistic, ancestor worship type of religion; and they have Tibetan Buddhism (an interesting bit of trivia, one of the designated "living buddhas" recognized by the Tibetan religious leaders is a Mosuo man).

On a day-to-day basis, Tibetan Buddhism plays a much greater role in their lives. Buddhist monks walk the streets, there are monasteries for teaching and housing monks, prayer flags wave from the branches of every tree, old women walk the streets spinning prayer wheels, etc.

Daba is practiced on a more ritual basis...for births, deaths, naming ceremonies, sickness, etc., the Daba priest will be called in to perform the relevant ceremonies.

My comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek (I knew very well they weren't christian), but your response is exactly what I was hoping to hear. I was curious about their religion.

[drkitten]

For this reason, we are bringing in linguists to analyze the Mosuo language, break it down into its component phonemes, and then develop a written system, which will then be taught to the Mosuo. I think, out of everything we are doing, this is the project that is closest to my heart.

When you say "we" are doing this, who is "we"? In particular, have you hooked up with the various groups like the LSA and the Endangered Languages Foundation?

There's a lot -- well, by linguistics standards, a lot -- of money floating around for doing exactly this, and it sounds like Mosuo is one language that might be saveable if you can bring it to the attention of the appropriate professionals. So depending upon who the linguists you are bringing in are, it may be possible/practical to get some real heavyweights to come in for their support....

[pgwenthold]

When you say "we" are doing this, who is "we"? ..


I'm guessing it is the NPO:

"Two years ago, I established a non-profit organization to work with the Mosuo, focusing on a variety of aspects (education, development, etc.), but also on promoting awareness of their culture, and to trying to preserve it."

[supercorgi]

Wolfman, sounds like you're doing some amazing work! The Mosuo sound like a fascinating people. Matrilineal systems are indeed rather rare. I think there used to be (:( ) some in Polynesia. I don't know if property was owned by females but it was transferred through the female line (a man's heirs would be his sister's children). I think some of the Native American tribes in the U.S. plains were also matrilineal.

[Wolfman]

When you say "we" are doing this, who is "we"? In particular, have you hooked up with the various groups like the LSA and the Endangered Languages Foundation?

There's a lot -- well, by linguistics standards, a lot -- of money floating around for doing exactly this, and it sounds like Mosuo is one language that might be saveable if you can bring it to the attention of the appropriate professionals. So depending upon who the linguists you are bringing in are, it may be possible/practical to get some real heavyweights to come in for their support....
The Endangered Languages Foundation won't work with us because, at present, the number of language speakers is still too large (around 30,000) to qualify for their work.

In truth, this project is still in its infancy; I am contacting linguists with experience in this field, who also have suitable 'sensitivity' to the political situation (ie. they won't end up writing huge papers critical of the Chinese government that force the gov't to shut our organization down). This is not a field in which I personally have a lot of experience/knowledge, so am really relying on these experts to help us with making those crucial connections.

So, to answer your question, "we" in specific terms is our organization; but in general terms, "we" is anyone who is interested to get involved and help.

One more point of interest I forgot to mention; the form the written language will take. We had a number of options in this regard:

* Use a phonetic version, similar to the English alphabet. Advantages – facilitates outsiders learning the Mosuo language; and familiarizes Mosuo children with the alphabet, facilitating their ability to learn English. Disadvantages – it looks and feels “foreign”, has no direct link to Mosuo culture or history, and may face greater difficulty being officially adopted by the Chinese government.


* Use symbols similar to “Dongba” script, the written form used by the Naxi minority. Advantages – the Mosuo are fairly familiar with Dongba, and have used it in the past for trade and communication with the Naxi. Disadvantages – the Mosuo strongly dislike being categorized as part of the Naxi minority, and have expressed a strong desire not to use Dongba.


* Use a modified form of Tibetan script. Advantages – Being Tibetan Buddist, many Mosuo are at least somewhat familiar with Tibetan script, and it is perceived as more a part of their own culture. Disadvantages – can lead to confusion of identity between Mosuo and Tibetan.


* Use some form of Chinese writing. Advantages – the Chinese government would like it, and it could provide mutual reinforcement of both Chinese and Mosuo written languages. Disadvantages – every linguist we have spoken with have said that using Chinese characters for the Mosuo language would be extremely problematic, as Chinese is a syllabic language, but Mosuo is not. In addition, most Mosuo have stated they don't want a Chinese form.


* Adapt Daba symbols. Although the Mosuo have no written form of their language, their religion, Daba, does have a variety of religious symbols. These symbols do not represent an alphabet or language (it would be similar to they symbol of the cross, or the fish, or the dove, in Christianity). However, we could adapt these symbols to have each symbol represent one sound in the Mosuo language. Advantages – it provides a written form that is derived directly from the Mosuo culture, and is immediately recognizable to the Mosuo. It also encourages preservation of a unique part of their culture. Disadvantages – it means designing an entirely new written form, including having to develop Unicode versions for computer use.
Following the principles of our organization, this decision was not made by any non-Mosuo. Rather, we presented the list of possible options to the Mosuo, explaining the relative advantages and disadvantages of each choice. The overwhelmingly popular choice was to adapt Daba symbols as the written form. Therefore, this is the course we are pursuing.


In order to alleviate some of the potential problems (that is, for non-native speakers to also learn the language) in using Daba symbols, we will also be developing a phonetic version of the language. In Chinese, this is already done; as young children, Chinese students will learn Pinyin, an alphabetic form of their language. Then later, they will learn the more complicated Chinese characters. We plan to do something similar. This will have the particular advantage of facilitating outsiders in learning the Mosuo language.

[Roswell-Perseis]

As a sociology major I added your site to my favorites. Thank you!!!

[Kaylee]

Wolfman. You rock.

Wow. What Bluess said.

Wolfman, did you write this part of the Wikipedia article on the Mosuo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo)?

Generally, the Mosuo uses the Han script for daily communication. The Tibetan script is mainly used for religious purposes.

Just wondering if the the Hans script is similar to the Dongba script you mentioned in one of your posts (#28)?

I also think it would be very interesting to add a .jpeg file showing the Daba symbols to both your web site and the Wiki article.

Also am curious if you wrote or agree with this part of the Wiki article?

There is also a very important historical component which is often unknown to (or ignored by) those studying the Mosuo. Historically, the Mosuo actually had a feudal system in which a small "nobility" controlled a larger "peasant" population. The Mosuo nobility practiced a more ‘traditional' patriarchal system, which encouraged marriage (usually within the ‘nobility'), and in which men were the head of the house.

It has been theorized that the "matriarchal" system of the lower classes may have been enforced (or at least encouraged) by the higher classes as a way of preventing threats to their own power. Since leadership was hereditary, and determined through the male family line, it virtually eliminated potential threats to leadership by having the peasant class trace their lineage through the female line. Therefore, attempts to depict the Mosuo culture as some sort of idealized "matriarchal" culture in which women have all the rights, and where everyone has much more freedom, are often based on lack of knowledge of this history; the truth is that for much of their history, the Mosuo ‘peasant' class were subjugated and sometimes treated as little better than slaves.

The truth is, as in most situations, both more complicated, and more fascinating. There is a very viable argument to be made that the "matriarchal" system of the Mosuo was actually enforced to keep them in servitude to the ruling Mosuo class. Yet, practically speaking, this system has led to a number of unusual traits within Mosuo society. Mosuo families have an incredible internal cohesiveness and stability; and certainly, Mosuo women do not (within their culture) face many of the struggles and barriers that women in many other cultures do.

It does seem to have the ring of truth to it, and helps make it more understandable how a society developed where men had very loose ties, if any, to their children.

[SezMe]

Some questions off the top of my head. Do they have an STD problem? Where did the word "Daba" come from? To what extent has their culture already been impacted by the "outer" world. Do they already have computers there? Do they trade with China or other regions? If so, what?

TIA.

[Wolfman]

Wow. What Bluess said.

Wolfman, did you write this part of the Wikipedia article on the Mosuo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo)?
Virtually the entire Wikipedia article was written by me, yes...and is mostly copied from the more extensive information on our website.
Just wondering if the the Hans script is similar to the Dongba script you mentioned in one of your posts (#28)?

I also think it would be very interesting to add a .jpeg file showing the Daba symbols to both your web site and the Wiki article.
"Han script" is actually just normal Chinese writing. Dongba is more pictographic, and would resemble hieroglyphics more than Chinese writing. And yes, am working on adding a lot more content to the site, including pics of the Daba symbols.
Also am curious if you wrote or agree with this part of the Wiki article?


There is also a very important historical component which is often unknown to (or ignored by) those studying the Mosuo. Historically, the Mosuo actually had a feudal system in which a small "nobility" controlled a larger "peasant" population. The Mosuo nobility practiced a more ‘traditional' patriarchal system, which encouraged marriage (usually within the ‘nobility'), and in which men were the head of the house.

It has been theorized that the "matriarchal" system of the lower classes may have been enforced (or at least encouraged) by the higher classes as a way of preventing threats to their own power. Since leadership was hereditary, and determined through the male family line, it virtually eliminated potential threats to leadership by having the peasant class trace their lineage through the female line. Therefore, attempts to depict the Mosuo culture as some sort of idealized "matriarchal" culture in which women have all the rights, and where everyone has much more freedom, are often based on lack of knowledge of this history; the truth is that for much of their history, the Mosuo ‘peasant' class were subjugated and sometimes treated as little better than slaves.

The truth is, as in most situations, both more complicated, and more fascinating. There is a very viable argument to be made that the "matriarchal" system of the Mosuo was actually enforced to keep them in servitude to the ruling Mosuo class. Yet, practically speaking, this system has led to a number of unusual traits within Mosuo society. Mosuo families have an incredible internal cohesiveness and stability; and certainly, Mosuo women do not (within their culture) face many of the struggles and barriers that women in many other cultures do.It does seem to have the ring of truth to it, and helps make it more understandable how a society developed where men had very loose ties, if any, to their children.Yup...as I said above, I wrote most of the content there; all content was not only written by me, but checked and approved by both Mosuo leaders and anthropological researchers. So I'd consider its veracity to be fairly reliable.
Do they have an STD problem?
Ah, there's a MAJOR potential problem. Historically, no, STDs do not seem to have been a significant problem. However, these days, huge numbers of Mosuo girls are being lured away to work as prostitutes in larger cities (one potentially negative aspect of Mosuo culture is that since they consider it normal to have multiple sexual partners, and have no expectation of virginity or monogamy, Mosuo girls tend to be more easily lured into prostitution, particularly when they see no other way to make money).

At present, there is no reliable data regarding STDs among the Mosuo; and conducting studies is difficult because the Chinese gov't is wary of outsiders getting such information, then using it to criticize gov't policies. We are attempting to work with several China-based health organizations that can help us in this area.

However, it doesn't take a genius to see the potential for huge danger. Mosuo girl goes off and works as a prostitute for a few years. She gets an STD, but isn't aware of it. She returns home. She has multiple sexual partners, who in turn have multiple partners of their own. Within a relatively short time, an STD could sweep through an entire community.

There is another aspect to this...the Mosuo are generally considered "primitive" and "uncivilized" by the Han Chinese, a description that the Mosuo obviously dislike. They are therefore loath to have a perception that their traditional culture of walking marriages could actually be responsible for the rapid spread of dangerous diseases...that would only 'confirm' Chinese opinions about their culture. So it is a very sensitive matter to even get their willing cooperation in such a venture.
Where did the word "Daba" come from?That's a romanized version of the word they use in their own language; I don't know what the specific roots are.
To what extent has their culture already been impacted by the "outer" world. Do they already have computers there? Do they trade with China or other regions? If so, what?That really is hard to answer, because it varies depending on which communities you talk about.

The main Mosuo community that everyone knows about is on the edge of Lugu Lake, a gorgeous lake high in the Himalayas that straddles Sichuan and Yunnan provinces. This is a major tourist center, and as such has become a typical tourist trap. Almost nothing here represents 'real Mosuo culture', but is rather a charicature of Mosuo culture, exaggerating some aspects, ignoring others, and generally presented by Chinese tour guides who really don't understand the culture at all. In this area, the impact has been huge.

There are communities close to Lugu Lake that are trying to cash in on Lugu Lake's popularity (and ability to make money) by developing small tourist industries themselves, mostly modeled on the system at Lugu Lake. In this case, there's been some negative impact, but not so much, and much of their daily life is still very 'typical' Mosuo culture.

In the first two instances, the Mosuo involved have electricity, and therefore access to TV (few have computers), so they've also seen more of the 'outside' world, and been influenced to a greater or lesser degree by that. But in the third category, we have lots of remote, tiny villages scattered throughout the mountains. Most of these don't even have electricity, and have very limited contact with the outside world. In these cases, their life today still goes on much as it has for hundreds of years. They are aware of the outside world as a general concept, but have little understanding of it, and are not very influenced by it.

Computers are a major issue for our organization. Obviously, in communities that don't even have electricity, computers are a bit problematic. But even in communities that do have electricity, computers are often too expensive for most Mosuo (consider that even a cheap computer would represent several years' salary for the average Mosuo).

However, for students in China to gain admission to senior high school or college/university, they must pass standard entrance examinations that include tests of their computer skills. Its pretty damn difficult to pass a computer examination if you come from a village that doesn't even have electricity.

Education is an entirely different subject, which perhaps I'll tackle a little later on.

[Wolfman]

oops...sorry...accidentally posted when I intended to edit! n/a

[Skeptic]

For more information about the Mosuo, their culture, and our work with them, you can check out our organization's website (http://www.mosuoproject.org)

You win the "coolest life" award on this forum, that's for damn sure.

Very, very interesting.

[Wolfman]

First, would like to thank everyone for your compliments and kind words!

Second, I'd really like to express my gratitude...I've made posts about the Mosuo, their culture, and our work with them on a number of other online forums, and aside from quick "gee, that sounds nice" responses, got very little feedback, and very little interest in learning more about the Mosuo.

Here' I've got people who are reading everything I'm writing (and, by this point, its a LOT of stuff!), and coming back with intelligent questions and requests for more information. For a guy like me (who often feels like he's operating in a vacuum), that means a lot.

So...thanks!!:D

[sphenisc]

And while the Mosuo are quite loose in regards to relationships, they would have problems with a guy who did a mother and daughter in the same family ;)

Are there incest taboos? How are they 'policed' if paternity is not regarded as significant? Great OP BTW!

[Wolfman]

Are there incest taboos? How are they 'policed' if paternity is not regarded as significant? Great OP BTW!
Thanks!

Yes, there are incest taboos, but it is 'policed' in a very interesting way. The matriarch of the family will keep track of the different relationships, and warn their children against potentially incestuous relationships. An example:

Let's say a woman has had two partners at around the time she gets pregnant. She doesn't know for sure which is the father. She'll inform her mother about both men. When those children are older, and start to date, the matriarch will then warn them away from relations with children who come from either of those two men's families.

Its not the most scientific of methods, but it seems to work.

Oh...and sexual relations between members of the same family are most definitely taboo.

[Wolfman]

Was just thinking about the Mosuo attitude towards same-sex relationships. This is something I don't really have extensive info on (its not a question you tend to ask people casually), but have talked with a few closer Mosuo friends about it. Their responses are interesting.

They seem to feel no particular revulsion at the idea (which is certainly very different from the vast majority of Chinese), it isn't something that they consider sick or disgusting. They just seem to feel that it doesn't happen (or very, very rarely). If I ask them a question like, "If you knew that guy was having sex with another man, what would your reaction be?", they'll respond with something like, "Well, I guess that'd be up to him, its his choice, but I don't know anyone who actually does that".

I find these reactions interesting because there seems to be no implicit societal taboo that would prevent homosexual relationships, yet such relationships either do not exist among the Mosuo, or else are kept secret despite not being particularly taboo.

However, in truth, I've only talked to four Mosuo about this, so it is hardly authoritative, and I have not yet met any anthropologists who've done any real work in this area either.

On the lighter side of this topic -- because of the whole matriarchal, no marriage thing, the Mosuo attract a significant number of feminist and/or lesbian visitors. Now please understand, I have no problems with either feminism or lesbians...but there are always, within any given group, a certain number of extremists and crackpots, and Lugu Lake seems to attract more than its share. These are women who go there not so much with an interest in sincerely understanding the Mosuo, as they are in squeezing the Mosuo into whatever predetermined agenda they've already decided on.

When I first started setting up this organization, and was looking to see what info was available online, I stumbled onto a website of an American woman -- a proud feminist and lesbian -- who, after spending a grand total of two days among the Mosuo, went back home to write about her experiences. According to her, Mosuo women are almost entirely lesbians, sharing their bedrooms at night and keeping men cooped up in common sleeping quarters like cattle; men were only invited into their rooms when they decided they wanted to have a baby. It is a kind of Chinese version of the Amazon myth.

What blew me away was just how little anything she wrote even remotely resembled the actual Mosuo culture; yet I knew there were people reading this who would inevitably end up believing it.

This is one of the main reasons why, for myself, I insist that anything that goes on our website, or our public materials, is vetted by numerous Mosuo, and by knowledgeable anthropologists, to try to ensure that it is not just a case of me transferring my own subconscious expectations on to them, but rather is as accurate and truthful a representation of the Mosuo culture as possible (and whatever mistakes do inevitably creep in are purely my fault, but I am confident they'll be corrected in a timely fashion by others in our organization).

[Kaylee]

Virtually the entire Wikipedia article was written by me, yes...and is mostly copied from the more extensive information on our website.

"Han script" is actually just normal Chinese writing. Dongba is more pictographic, and would resemble hieroglyphics more than Chinese writing. And yes, am working on adding a lot more content to the site, including pics of the Daba symbols.
Yup...as I said above, I wrote most of the content there; all content was not only written by me, but checked and approved by both Mosuo leaders and anthropological researchers. So I'd consider its veracity to be fairly reliable.



Yes, I thought you wrote both. Again -- great job, its very informative and easy to read. I was just trying to understand why they can't continue to use Hans script?

Also I was wondering -- how does the Chinese policy of "one family, one child" apply to the Mouso?

[Skeptic]

In most cultures, a man will be responsible to care for his own children; in Mosuo culture, a man is responsible to care for the children of his sisters/nieces/aunts/etc. So Mosuo men still have full parenting responsibilities...perhaps even moreso, since they may end up sharing responsibility for the children of many family members.

Very interesting. What this shows, I think, is that while there is no marriage, there is also no illegitimacy--that is, most children (a) know who their fathers are (and the fathers do not deny it, even if they have no role in caring for them) and (b) have two male and female adults (mother and her brother) take care of them.

Also, it's easy to see why this social arrangement will discourage promiscuity. In general, most men will be responsible for raising, roughly, the same number of children as they have, even if they don't raise their own children.

However, if you are a man who has too many partners--or, more important, too many children--you are probably seen as a freeloader: someone who makes society take care of their many children while only caring for a few of society's children in return.

Am I correct here? You're the expert, I'm just making an educated(?) guess.

[Skeptic]

Hey, I saw her first...Get lost!

Heh. Actually, while this woman can hardly be said to be sexy, she is by no means ugly--just an older woman.

[Wolfman]

Yes, I thought you wrote both. Again -- great job, its very informative and easy to read. I was just trying to understand why they can't continue to use Hans script?
Oh, they can and will continue to use standard Chinese writing; that is, in fact, required by Chinese law, and certainly a reasonable requirement. All Mosuo children will at least go to primary school, and all education is conducted in Chinese.

We are not seeking to 'replace' Chinese as their written language, but to add written Mosuo in addition to written Chinese. Orally, they are bilingual (Mosuo and Chinese languages); but in writing, they can only write one language.

Many Mosuo, to try to prevent the loss of their cultural legacy, have made efforts at writing down their oral history using Chinese. However, the fact is that this is a translation, and as such inevitably loses some of its impact, meaning, and context in the translation. For example, many rituals and songs are very poetic and rhythmic, but when translated into Chinese, although the general meaning may be preserved, it sounds awkward and clunky.

At present, there are significant efforts being made to make audio and video recordings of the Daba priests reciting this oral legacy, in order to preserve it. But this is hampered by the fact that some of them regard it as a sacred tradition to be handed down only from father to son, kept within the family (an interesting side note here -- Daba priests and their families actually follow a patriarchal system; this is a holdover from the past lord/servant dichotomy that was mentioned by Shera above, in which the priests were part of the ruling class).

This also has the problem that, while it accomplishes the goal of preserving this knowledge, it doesn't help so much with teaching it. Consider if you were required to write an essay about War and Peace, and had only an audio transcript. Certainly, listening to it would be easy enough, but when it came time to study it in detail, find specific passages, etc., it would be a royal pain in the behind.

In general, we view the use of Chinese translations and oral/video recordings as very useful, but nevertheless as stopgap measures; creating a full written form of the language is really necessary to preserve both their language, and much of their cultural legacy.
Also I was wondering -- how does the Chinese policy of "one family, one child" apply to the Mouso?
Actually, in China, all minorities are allowed two children per family. However, in regards to the Mosuo, this doesn't make much difference, as the Mosuo are pretty much self-regulating in regard to population, it is part of their culture.

Another significant benefit of their walking marriage system is that male and female children have equal status; there is no preference for a male or a female child, because neither will leave the home when they get married. The only 'preference' as such is that if one family has too many males, and another has too many females, they may swap babies to maintain proportions.

If a particular household is getting too small (usually under 10-15 people), the women within the household will have more babies. If a particular household is getting too large (usually over 20-25), they will stop having babies (they don't have contraception in general, but do apparently have various herbs that can be consumed to induce a miscarriage -- abortion is not an issue among the Mosuo).

The result is that overall numbers remain pretty much constant.
Very interesting. What this shows, I think, is that while there is no marriage, there is also no illegitimacy--that is, most children (a) know who their fathers are (and the fathers do not deny it, even if they have no role in caring for them) and (b) have two male and female adults (mother and her brother) take care of them.

Also, it's easy to see why this social arrangement will discourage promiscuity. In general, most men will be responsible for raising, roughly, the same number of children as they have, even if they don't raise their own children.

However, if you are a man who has too many partners--or, more important, too many children--you are probably seen as a freeloader: someone who makes society take care of their many children while only caring for a few of society's children in return.

Am I correct here? You're the expert, I'm just making an educated(?) guess.
You're correct that the Mosuo really have no such concept as an 'illegitimate' or 'bastard' child. Even the concept of an orphan, while not entirely nonexistent, is significantly lesser...since even if both biological parents die, there's still a large extended family that continues to fill the parenting niche. To be a real "orphan", you'd have to lose your entire extended family.

However it would not be accurate to depict men who have too many partners as freeloaders. For the simple reason that, as described above in my response to Shera, women pretty much have full control over their bodies, and their decision whether or not to have a child. They will only have children if that is what they want.

[Earthborn]

Fascinating.

Interestingly enough, unlike almost every other culture in the world, Mosuo females consistently outperform Mosuo males on mathematic and scientific tests...What sort of mathematics do they have? Do they have their own number system and calculating aids?

How do they view people who do not wish to fit into the gender roles? For example, what if a boy wants to do calculations or a girl wants to do some physical labour? Or even wants to take on the opposite role completely?

I find these reactions interesting because there seems to be no implicit societal taboo that would prevent homosexual relationships, yet such relationships either do not exist among the Mosuo, or else are kept secret despite not being particularly taboo.There does seem to be a taboo on knowing who does it with whom, considering the whole "climbing through the window in the dead of night" business. So it perhaps there is homosexual behaviour going on, but people just don't want to know about it.

[Wolfman]

Fascinating.

What sort of mathematics do they have? Do they have their own number system and calculating aids?
Ah, sorry, I should have clarified that I was talking about their performance in the regular (ie. Chinese) education system.
How do they view people who do not wish to fit into the gender roles? For example, what if a boy wants to do calculations or a girl wants to do some physical labour? Or even wants to take on the opposite role completely?
So far as I've seen, this is usually acceptable. The person might be considered a little strange, but I don't think there would be any condemnation. And in the face of modern realities, gender roles are certainly shifting. It is a fact that males will stand a better chance of being admitted to mathematic/science programs in college/university (since these are Chinese institutions that still tend to have a strong male bias), so it can be seen as more practical for the boys to focus on this area. On the flip side, for day-to-day physical labor, such as taking care of the livestock, planting the fields, etc., this does tend to fall under the woman's responsibility (as explained in a previous post, Mosuo men traditionally traveled in caravans as traders, so any daily jobs were the responsibility of the women). Mosuo women are very feminine...but also very healthy and strong, not at all delicate or fragile.

Its really a rather complex structure, and I will inevitably simplify some aspects of the culture as I try to explain it; these questions help a lot to clarify some of those issues, and hopefully give a fuller, more comprehensive picture of the culture.
There does seem to be a taboo on knowing who does it with whom, considering the whole "climbing through the window in the dead of night" business. So it perhaps there is homosexual behaviour going on, but people just don't want to know about it.
As I said above, I don't really have enough personal knowledge in this area to comment authoritatively; but my own personal suspicion is that the Mosuo attitude towards homosexuality will be somewhat similar to that of the U.S. military..."Don't ask, don't tell".

[SezMe]

Ah, sorry, I should have clarified that I was talking about their performance in the regular (ie. Chinese) education system.
Do they use arabic numbers? Do they know scienfic notaton, for example?

New area: What is their medical system like? Do they have any western medicine? Do they have a hospital such as I in the USA think of it?

[Wolfman]

Do they use arabic numbers? Do they know scienfic notaton, for example?

New area: What is their medical system like? Do they have any western medicine? Do they have a hospital such as I in the USA think of it?
These are slightly different questions, in that they don't really relate to Mosuo culture as such, but rather to Chinese culture and politics. Education, health care, etc. are all under Chinese control, not Mosuo.

To answer your questions quickly -- mathematics and science are taught using standard international systems and notations (otherwise, how could Chinese mathematicians and scientists exchange results with those from other countries?). In big cities, there are some hospitals that are quite modern and developed, but many more that lack modern equipment (not from lack of perceived need or desire, but from lack of money). In rural areas, medical care is minimal at best. For example, the Mosuo village that I usually live in is seven hours by non-stop driving over twisting mountain roads to get to the nearest 'real' hospital.

And all Chinese hospitals tend to incorporate both Chinese and western medicine; the x-ray lab will be next door to the acupuncture section, and the pharmacy will have a "western medicine" and "chinese medicine" section.

[SezMe]

Just a quick note tonight, Wolfman. I've posted my questions without much context but only because I'm fascinated by your experiences. I really appreciate your responses. As I read them, many questions just pop into my mind and I have just posted them as I go along. Please don't take this posting style in this thread as anything other than a rambling thought process.

[Wolfman]

SezMe,

Please don't take my comment above as a criticism of your questions...I appreciate everyone who's taken the time to read all of this, and has the interest to ask questions. I just wanted to specify that it wasn't a specifically Mosuo-related question to avoid misunderstandings in relation to my answer.

Please do feel free to post any/all questions.

[Kaylee]

Oh, they can and will continue to use standard Chinese writing; that is, in fact, required by Chinese law, and certainly a reasonable requirement. All Mosuo children will at least go to primary school, and all education is conducted in Chinese.

We are not seeking to 'replace' Chinese as their written language, but to add written Mosuo in addition to written Chinese. Orally, they are bilingual (Mosuo and Chinese languages); but in writing, they can only write one language.

Many Mosuo, to try to prevent the loss of their cultural legacy, have made efforts at writing down their oral history using Chinese. However, the fact is that this is a translation, and as such inevitably loses some of its impact, meaning, and context in the translation. For example, many rituals and songs are very poetic and rhythmic, but when translated into Chinese, although the general meaning may be preserved, it sounds awkward and clunky.

Oh, OK. I had misinterpreted the Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosuo)than.

Script

Generally, the Mosuo uses the Han script for daily communication. The Tibetan script is mainly used for religious purposes.

I had assumed that this meant they transliterated vs. translated Mosuo into Hans or Tibetan script.


At present, there are significant efforts being made to make audio and video recordings of the Daba priests reciting this oral legacy, in order to preserve it. But this is hampered by the fact that some of them regard it as a sacred tradition to be handed down only from father to son, kept within the family (an interesting side note here -- Daba priests and their families actually follow a patriarchal system; this is a holdover from the past lord/servant dichotomy that was mentioned by Shera above, in which the priests were part of the ruling class).

This also has the problem that, while it accomplishes the goal of preserving this knowledge, it doesn't help so much with teaching it. Consider if you were required to write an essay about War and Peace, and had only an audio transcript. Certainly, listening to it would be easy enough, but when it came time to study it in detail, find specific passages, etc., it would be a royal pain in the behind.

In general, we view the use of Chinese translations and oral/video recordings as very useful, but nevertheless as stopgap measures; creating a full written form of the language is really necessary to preserve both their language, and much of their cultural legacy.

I admire what your association and the Mouso are doing, :) and I appreciate what a challenge it must be.

[Wolfman]

I had assumed that this meant they transliterated vs. translated Mosuo into Hans or Tibetan script.
Transliteration isn't really practical, as there are sounds (and sound combinations) in the Mosuo language that don't exist in Mandarin Chinese or Tibetan. I know of Mosuo who've made attempts at this, but the result is worse than just translating it into Chinese (or some other language).
I admire what your association and the Mouso are doing, :) and I appreciate what a challenge it must be.
Thanks!

[luchog]

On a day-to-day basis, Tibetan Buddhism plays a much greater role in their lives. Buddhist monks walk the streets, there are monasteries for teaching and housing monks, prayer flags wave from the branches of every tree, old women walk the streets spinning prayer wheels, etc.

Daba is practiced on a more ritual basis...for births, deaths, naming ceremonies, sickness, etc., the Daba priest will be called in to perform the relevant ceremonies.
It sounds similar to Japanese religious culture, and the melding of Buddhism and Shinto. Although with the Japanese, there was historically a class divide between the two.

[luchog]

Adapt Daba symbols. Although the Mosuo have no written form of their language, their religion, Daba, does have a variety of religious symbols. These symbols do not represent an alphabet or language (it would be similar to they symbol of the cross, or the fish, or the dove, in Christianity). However, we could adapt these symbols to have each symbol represent one sound in the Mosuo language. Advantages – it provides a written form that is derived directly from the Mosuo culture, and is immediately recognizable to the Mosuo. It also encourages preservation of a unique part of their culture.
As strictly an amateur dabbler in linguistics (and philology to a lesser extent), I find this to be a particularly interesting, and in my mind aesthetically pleasing, choice. Creating an entire symbolic system, rather than just adapting an existing one, is a unique challenge. I'm reminded of the development of the Hangul (Korean) writing system. Are you using something like that as the model for your Mosuo script, or a more arbitrary sytem?

Sounds like a truly exciting project to be involved in, and I definitely envy you.

[Wolfman]

Initially, our linguists will break the language down into its component phonemes (there are several regional dialects, so we have chosen the most common one as 'standard' Mosuo language). Once we see how many phonemes we have in total, we will see if there are enough Daba symbols to match one symbol to each sound. If not, we may end up having modified symbols. There are a total of around 32 Daba symbols (this number varies a little depending on who you talk to), but if there are more distinct phonemes than symbols, it is not a significant problem; just drawing a line under each one would double the number of symbols available to us, which should yield more than enough symbols for our use.

Second, the linguists will work with the Mosuo to assign one symbol to each phoneme. Where possible, they will try to create a linguistic link between the symbol and the sound it represents (for example, if the symbol's actual name is "mah", then that symbol could be used to represent the "m" sound). This facilitates learning the symbols later, similar to our "A is for Apple" methods in the west. But this will not always be possible, some symbols will simply be assigned more or less arbitrarily.

Third, some of the symbols are a little awkward to write in their current form, so we will ask local Mosuo artists to create stylized versions of the symbols; versions that are similar to the original, but easy to remember and to write.

Then, once that is all done, we start teaching it to them. We anticipate starting by teaching a core group of local Mosuo teachers; once they understand and are competent in using the new written form, they will begin creating textbooks based on that, for both children and adults, that can be used to teach this to everyone else.

The remaining barrier is a political one; only the Chinese gov't has the 'right' to designate an official written language (being 'official' means it can be taught as part of the regular school curriculum). This is kind of a catch-22, in that the gov't won't recognize it as official unless a significant number of people are using it; but you can't have a significant number of people using it unless it is being taught to them. So we'll mount a more-or-less grassroots campaign, where all training is done outside of the classroom. Mosuo infants will be taught in the basics of reading/writing their own language before they begin to attend primary school, and after they begin school, we'll have classes once or twice a week, outside of the regular school hours, to reinforce that.

It is our hope that this becomes the de facto standard, so that later the gov't does recognize it, and we can include it as a part of the regular education curriculum.

[Wolfman]

Creating an entire symbolic system, rather than just adapting an existing one, is a unique challenge.
I agree. One of the most important aspects of this to me is that the Mosuo themselves really take ownership of this project, and of the written language. The involvement of outsiders is necessary, we don't have Mosuo who have the necessary knowledge and skills to do this themselves. But there is a danger when doing it this way that some Mosuo end up perceiving it as something being pushed on them by outsiders.

Involving the Mosuo in every step of the process, and particularly letting them choose what the final characters look like, and which sounds they represent, is very important in giving them a sense that this is a language they created...we were just there to assist them.

And there is also the sense, the first time the Mosuo see this written form, that their reaction isn't "that looks like English" or "that looks foreign". Their first reaction is, "Hey, that looks like Daba symbols". It is immediately recognizable as coming directly from their own culture and history.

And yes, out of all the projects we are doing, this is the one that is closest to my heart. We're doing a lot of things that are of significant benefit to the Mosuo, some of them quite arguably of more immediate concern. But 50 or 100 years later, most of the contributions we've made will be 'invisible'...but the written language will be an enduring legacy, something that myself and others will always be able to point at and say, "We helped to do that."

[Chris Haynes]

Okay, Wolfman... you are one cool dude!

If I am incoherent, please forgive me... I should have gone to bed two hours ago (after picking up a teenager from school ski trip), but I had to click on your intro, and then come here.

I have a few thoughts... The first being my introduction into reading science fiction was through the genre known as "speculative fiction", especially the writings of Ursula K. Le Guin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_K._Le_Guin). As it turns out her father was an anthropologist... and even though I used to think she was too, I feel that much of her writing is influence by a "what if this culture did this!" (by the way, I did not enjoy her book The Telling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Telling)at all, even though I loved The Dispossessed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dispossessed)and The Left Hand of Darkness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Left_Hand_of_Darkness)). The idea of a "no-marriage" culture just excites my mind on to several of the themes her books bring up.

Then there is the language. I live in the Far West... I don't know which part of Canada you are from, but you may know of the program by both the USA and Canada to "civilize" the native tribes. One way to do that was to take the children away from their families and educate them in a sort of boarding school (something similar happened in Australia with children of aborigines fathered by white men that was the genesis of the movie The Rabbit Proof Fence (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0252444/)). The native kids were punished for using their native language and taught to be "white"... or just generally abused:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/amnestynow/soulwound.html

What has happened in the last few decades where we live... and just north where my husband is from (British Columbia) there has been a scrambling to keep native languages alive. From http://www.ydli.org/fnlgsbc.htm in Canada to http://www.lushootseed.net/ where we live... to the Tlingit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlingit_language) a way up north (by the way, some of tribes from the north tended to come down to gather slaves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlingit#Slavery) from other areas, so no culture is perfectly innocent).

Anyway... the is the only reason I ventured into the mine field known as "Politics" was by clicking on this link from your intro thread. It was certainly worth it. Thanks.

[Wolfman]

HC,

Actually, my father is an Anglican minister, and when I was growing up (in southern Ontario) one of his churches was on a reservation; so I grew up intimately familiar with the issues facing Canada's native peoples. While I lived in Canada, I was active in promoting awareness of native issues. I was quite young, and didn't really accomplish much, but to this day I consider our treatment of our native peoples one of the greatest black marks on our nation's history (but certainly not the only one). On the bright side, Canada's gov't is starting to take very positive steps to redress some of these issues, but there's still a long way to go.

There are actually several native tribes in Canada that used to have cultures somewhat similar to that of the Mosuo. They had matriarchal cultures, and although they had some practice of marriage, it was much looser than in many other groups. I've had anthropologists who study Canada's native peoples contact me to discuss some of these similarities.

Fortunately, these days, there does seem to be greater awareness and interest in not letting cultures like these die off. Unfortunately, in too many instances, "interest" does not translate into "financial support". And its hard to accomplish much without money.

Anyway, thanks for your comments. Regarding the inadvertent result of 'luring' you into the Politics section, I was somewhat uncertain where to place this, as there are no sections specifically relating to culture. I was stuck between putting it in the Science section (from the aspect of anthropology) or lump it in with "Social Issues" here. I went with the latter because of the more subjective nature of the material, and also because from what I could see, more people participate in this forum (and I'm something of a sucker for attention :cool: ). I guess some of the subject matter would also fit in the Religion & Philosophy section also, come to think of it!

[Morrigan]

This thread is very interesting. I learned many things. I had never heard of those people before, and their culture and way of living are fascinating. :)

Keep up the good work.

[Wolfman]

I just received this email, from a woman who viewed my website.
Dear Mr. Lombard,

Once again the forces of patriarchal persecution rise up to take whatever power they can from women. Your website is a load of rubbish, just trying to deny the reality of the superiority of a female-run society.

The Mosuo culture dates back thousands of years, tracing back to connections with the Mayan and Egyptian civilizations, who also revered women until men took them over. In those cultures, there was no war, no rape, no murder. Not until men took power.

Your website and your organization are just another example of the inability of men to accept women who are more powerful than them. You'd prefer to see the world torn apart by violence, than accept that women can be leaders, too.

I am going to write to the Chinese government and request that your organization be shut down. You have let me know your name, and how to find you, so I will do everything I can to prevent you from perverting this pure culture.

Don't write back, I am wise to your lies and methods.
Now, this is by far the wackiest email I've ever received; the only thing I could do was laugh at it. At least the woman appears reasonably literate, but beyond that I have problems crediting her with any serious intelligence.

1) Everything on my website has been vetted and approved by the Mosuo, and by anthropologists studying the Mosuo (every one of whom, by the way, are female)

2) I have no idea where this thing about links to the Mayan and Egyptian civilizations comes from, I've never even heard a claim like this before. And there's absolutely nothing to support such a claim, or even make us suspect such a connection.

The rest...well, its just very obviously patent nonsense. But a good example of what I mentioned earlier regarding some of the more 'fringe' elements that tend to be attracted to study of the Mosuo. I rather suspect that if I bothered to engage her in further dialogue (which I won't), she'd start telling me a spirit guides and mystical revelations that have led her to her knowledge.

Anyway, this isn't intended to try to justify myself in the work I'm doing; just as a rather humorous interlude which, given the nature of this forum, I think a lot of people will appreciate.

[luchog]

And there is also the sense, the first time the Mosuo see this written form, that their reaction isn't "that looks like English" or "that looks foreign". Their first reaction is, "Hey, that looks like Daba symbols". It is immediately recognizable as coming directly from their own culture and history.

That sounds to me like the logically ideal way to go, both with the creation of the script, as well as education in the written language. Again, this is a truly remarkable project, and I find it absolutely fascinating.

[Smart_Cookie]

Wow, Wolfman - another fascinating thread.

I was intrigued reading about the Mosuo's language, and the steps being taken to preserve it.

I was heartened to read that most Mosuo are bilingual, and that their language is still being taught, and that there are still so many speakers of it.

In the other thread, I mentioned that I'm a status Indian here in Manitoba. Our local dialects are in a much more precarious position. My grandparents spoke michif (http://www.metisresourcecentre.mb.ca/language/), a pastiche of French and Cree. But in our extended family, it has not really survived. My grandmother spoke nothing but her language. While my mother spoke michif to my grandmother, she never taught it to my sister or myself, and she never spoke it at home. That's pretty common, I find - the language is not being passed down to most of the younger generations.

Thanks for sharing your info with us, Wolfman.

p.s. on the attached link, it tickles me to know that the woman trying to preserve our language is my second cousin. And Joseph Fagnan and Catherine Chartrand are also my great-grandparents.

[Morrigan]

I just received this email, from a woman who viewed my website.
*snip email*


Wow, I sure got a chuckle out of that. All I would reply to her is, "Good luck with that, sweetie." And the "sweetie" is just a nice touch, since it's so condescendingly patriarchal, it will surely throw her into a hissy fit of feminazi rage. :D

Though I'm at a loss as to what she accuses you of, exactly. Where did you imply inferiority of the Mosuo, where did you try to "patriarchize" their society, etc.? Oh well, just another loony.

[Lemastre]

Do any Mosuo migrate to the rest of the world, and if they do, how do they get along?

[Wolfman]

Do any Mosuo migrate to the rest of the world, and if they do, how do they get along?
Well, lots of younger Mosuo are 'migrating' to other parts of China, primarily in search of jobs. But outside of China, it is very limited.

There is one Mosuo woman who has achieved a fair degree of fame abroad, a woman by the name of Yang Erche Namu (you can do a Google search on her, there'll be plenty of results). Although she never became an A-list celebrity, she enjoyed (and continues to enjoy) more than her fair share of fame. Her story, told in the biography "Leaving Mother Lake" (which, by the way, is an excellent book which has won numerous awards, and been translated into at least seven languages), is an amazing one. She started out as an illiterate, uneducated girl herding goats in the Himalayas; and through sheer determination and force of personality, managed to get to Shanghai on her own, and there got herself admitted to a music school (she is an amazing singer, who had won several regional and national contests).

While in Shanghai, she met and married a foreign diplomat, who took her to Europe. When that relationship ended, she next went to the U.S., where she gained work as a model (and was one of the first Asian women to have a cover on Vogue magazine). She also went through an impressive list of boyfriends/lovers.

She eventually returned to China, and now works in the fashion industry, hosting fashion shows and writing for fashion magazines; and also engaging in work to encourage tourism to Lugu Lake, and make more people aware of the Mosuo (in fact, the majority of tourism at Lugu Lake could be attributed to Namu). In China, her name is quite well known, and she is in many ways the "face" of Mosuo people.

Which is, sadly, very unfortunate. Because for all that she's a very remarkable woman, she does not really represent the Mosuo people at all. The way she thinks/acts/talks is very, very different from the average Mosuo person, and this has caused some animosity from the Mosuo community. While they appreciate the increased awareness of their culture, they dislike the image of the Mosuo that most people are getting from Namu.

Namu and I are good friends, and I respect her phenomenally as an individual; she's an incredibly strong and determined woman. But she is not 'typical' Mosuo in any sense of the term. And her exposure to the fashion industry and celebrity has left her more than a little arrogant.

I am only familiar personally with one other Mosuo who has gone abroad; she is a very close friend of mine, a Mosuo woman who was the first (and as far as I am aware only) Mosuo to study in an American university. She got support from Rotary International to do a master's degree in education administration, and has now returned to the Lugu Lake region to focus on educational issues affecting the Mosuo (she is also one of the chief leaders in our organization).

One further thing I'd like to comment on regarding the Mosuo. I've met quite a few Mosuo who left their homes for the 'outside' world, and quite a number of them did quite well. But they always, always ended up returning home. The people I've met are certainly capable of achieving material success in other cities/countries, but their ties to their homes and their families are extremely strong. Probably the biggest problem they face in adjusting to living elsewhere is not so much the cultural adjustment, as it is simply adjusting to being on their own, without family support or structure.

Namu is a very good friend of mine.

[Wolfman]

A few pictures of the Mosuo, and of Lugu Lake:
http://www.mosuoproject.org/PagePics/singing.jpg
http://www.mosuoproject.org/PagePics/lake7.jpghttp://www.mosuoproject.org/PagePics/religion.jpghttp://www.mosuoproject.org/PagePics/lugu.jpghttp://www.mosuoproject.org/PagePics/further.jpghttp://www.mosuoproject.org/PagePics/daba.jpg

[SimonD]

Wolfman,

Another amazing thread. You certainly know your stuff and it is a pleasure to read your well informed posts.

Just a couple of questions

- do you have trouble with Christains trying to stop they way of life and trying to enforce their beliefs as far as single partners are concerned?
- is there any jealous disputes between partners?

[tkingdoll]

Fascinating.

At what age do they become sexually active, on average? And, do the women usually take partners within their own generation?

Sorry if you already covered these questions and I missed them, it's 3am :D

[Wolfman]

Wolfman,

Another amazing thread. You certainly know your stuff and it is a pleasure to read your well informed posts.

Just a couple of questions

- do you have trouble with Christains trying to stop they way of life and trying to enforce their beliefs as far as single partners are concerned?
- is there any jealous disputes between partners?
There is some missionary activity there; however, as this is illegal under Chinese gov't law, and the area is so remote and difficult to live in any way, not that much. Beyond that, the Mosuo have proven rather resistant to attempts to change/destroy their culture. My parents actually work for a missionary training organization (how's that for irony, eh?), and I once checked one of their books on evangelization efforts around the world. It said that missionaries have been working with the Mosuo for abou 10 years, and in that time only one family has converted.

I'd like to point out, however, that the most serious threats to their culture have come from the Chinese government. For quite some time, the government made their religion illegal, and forbade the training of younger priests. This didn't just affect their religion; since the Mosuo have no written form of their language, their entire historical/cultural heritage is handed down orally from priest to priest by rote memorization. With the lack of younger priests to learn this oral history, much has been lost. The government also tried for awhile to outlaw their 'walking marriage' system...but that was singularly unsuccessful. (Today, laws stopping their religion and walking marriages have been removed)
Fascinating.

At what age do they become sexually active, on average? And, do the women usually take partners within their own generation?

Sorry if you already covered these questions and I missed them, it's 3am :D
This question actually leads to another fascinating aspect of Mosuo culture. Among the Mosuo, a child is not considered a full "human" until they reach a certain age (roughly corresponding to puberty). They believe that before a child reaches this age, they do not have a soul. Therefore, children are all dressed the same (no differentiation between male and female clothing), and children are not allowed to engage in any religious activities (this includes things as simple as serving food, which must first be offered to the household gods). Also, a funeral for a child is very simple, with little ritual, as compared to that of an adult, who had a soul.

Anthropologists theorize that this likely evolved as a defense mechanism against high infant mortality rates; it is psychologically easier to handle the death of your children if you consider that they didn't have souls and weren't 'real' humans. Also, I believe I mentioned earlier that the Mosuo seek to maintain household ratios of males and females...so if one family has too many males, and another too many females, they may simple swap children.

While there are some advantages to this system, it can lead to neglect and abuse of children. Not so much physical abuse (although the Mosuo definitely believe in the value of a good spanking), but more in the way of neglect. Children may sometimes be treated more the way you'd treat a pet. It is hard to describe this, in fact it is something I cannot fully understand (or describe) myself.

Anyway, when children reach a certain age (usually around 12-14 years old), they will go through a special ceremony where the girls get their skirts, and the guys get their pants. It is at this point that they are considered to be fully 'human', and to have received a soul.

It is also at this point that they are able to begin to engage in sexual activities (before this age, girls sleep in a communal area with everyone else; after this age, they can have their own bedroom, into which they can invite partners). However, from what I've been able to gather, actual sexual activity at this age is relatively rare, and more likely to consist of two young teenagers playing doctor with each other than in actual intercourse.

From our perspective, obviously, there would be potential for sexual abuse in such a system; however, from what I've been able to gather (and based on research by other female anthropologists who are significantly more knowledgeable than myself), this actually seems to be quite minimal. In fact, rates of sexual abuse and rape seem to be much lower among the Mosuo than most other cultures. Very likely, this is in large part due to having a matriarchal culture where women are the main authorities...they are much less likely to turn a blind eye to sexual abuse, or to try to rationalize it, and women are in general held in much higher respect.

As a side note, among the Mosuo, if a man does rape a woman, the penalty is death.

Regarding jealousy, certainly the Mosuo still have jealousy, lovers' quarrels, etc. They have the same feelings that everyone else does. But from what I've seen, it is somewhat different. Of course, if one man loves a woman, but she chooses another man, he'll feel jealous, sad, angry, etc.

But the Mosuo grow up without ever having any expectation of finding a 'true love' and of spending their life with that person. They view romantic love as something that is fleeting and unpredictable, that may last only a few days, or may last for decades. So it is in general far less traumatic when couples split up, and much of the anger/hatred that accompanies such splits in western culture is considerably diluted among the Mosuo.

I try my best to present a balanced picture -- there are many fascinating aspects of Mosuo culture, and certainly some aspects that I think are quite positive, and from which other cultures could learn. However, they do also have problems and abuses, just as every culture does, so I try to keep that balance.

However, for myself, I have to say that one of the things that most impresses me about the Mosuo culture is that it is exceedingly rare to see a couple who are unhappy together, who don't like each other. There are some Mosuo relationships that last only a few days or weeks; others that last years or decades. But they are almost always together because they want to be together; not out of a sense of obligation to children (which is largely irrelevant with the children raised only by the mother), not out of a sense of obligation to a marriage contract, etc. If they are no longer happy together, they will simply separate, with relatively little muss or fuss.

[Wolfman]

*bump*

(Partly out of vanity, partly because I hope we'll get some new people interested in the topic)

[Aoidoi]

As a side note, among the Mosuo, if a man does rape a woman, the penalty is death.What's their judicial system like? Are there trials of some sort? Or is it more of a tribal "everybody knows what you did and the family is gonna cut off your head" sort of situation?

[Wolfman]

What's their judicial system like? Are there trials of some sort? Or is it more of a tribal "everybody knows what you did and the family is gonna cut off your head" sort of situation?
Well, of course, "officially" the judicial system would be the Communist system, with people arrested by the police, tried in the courts, etc.

However, unofficially, they tend to take care of things themselves. I was actually witness to such an event, when I had money stolen from me while I was visiting (theft is another huge taboo in the Mosuo culture). The family that I stayed with (who were responsible for me during my stay, and thus suffered a tremendous loss of face when something was stolen from me) organized what was essentially a lynch mob, about 30 people armed with knives and cleavers, who proceeded to tear through every house in the village until they found the money, and the person who had stolen it. That person was then dragged through the streets, kicked at and spit on by everyone, until he was placed at my feet, where he was forced to 'kowtow' to me.

Now, I was incredibly uncomfortable/upset with this, to me the amount of money that had been stolen was not that much (although for them it was a lot) and this man was literally being beaten and humiliated in front of me.

The next things that happened was that all the matriarchs (the oldest woman in each family) from the village walked forward, spit on the man, and cursed him. It was then their responsibility to proclaim judgment, what punishment he should face. I knew from the mutterings in the crowd that there was a strong push to slit this guy's throat -- I don't think I would have been able to handle the knowledge that a man had been killed because he stole a little money from me. But I was then asked, as the victim, what I wanted done.

I knew that the major issue was "face". Not only had the family I lived with lost face, but the entire village felt that the Mosuo people as a whole had lost face, that I would now have an impression of them as a dishonest, thieving culture whom I would never trust. The only way for them to demonstrate this was not true was to take extreme action, such as executing the thief, to demonstrate their own sincerity.

So I gave a little speech in which I told them that their actions demonstrated to me absolutely that this theft was the action of one man, not of the Mosuo as a whole; and that I could clearly see that the Mosuo were a very sincere, honest, and trustworthy people, that they had nothing else to prove to me. I then added that the man who had committed the theft had already been more than adequately humiliated and punished. Then I stated that, as of that moment, I considered all the Mosuo gathered there as my friends...but that if this man was further injured, or killed, then I would no longer consider them my friends.

As a result of my words, the man was released (with a fair degree of spitting and kicking at him), the judgment from the matriarchs was to respect my wishes.

This was by far the most uncomfortable experience I ever had with the Mosuo, one for which I blamed myself more than a little (I'd been careless with my money to begin with, which was stupid). But ironically, it proved to be one of the key moments in establishing a real trust and relationship with the Mosuo. Before that moment, they'd been very warm and friendly, but still treated me as an outsider. After that, I was more a part of the community -- we'd all been through a crisis together, and both sides had been able to demonstrate their friendship and sincerity.

So, technically, one could call this a somewhat "democratic" system of justice, in that a council of village leaders (the matriarchs) will determine punishment together. But it also can be very emotional, driven by a mob mentality, and with little or no need to demonstrate actual proof of a crime (although in my situation, the guilt was self-evident).

[Wolfman]

A further note here, something I just learned on my last trip to visit the Mosuo; one of the earlier topics was related to coming of age, and during this trip I found out much more of the mythology and culture surrounding that.

According to Mosuo mythology, humans were originally given only 14 years to life; while dogs were given 65. The humans were unhappy with this state of affairs, and complained to the gods, but nothing could be done. However, the dog, being the loyal friend that he is, went to the gods and told them that he would sacrifice 50 years, and give it to the humans instead.

This explains why humans live around 65 years, while dogs live around 15 years. But more than that, it actually has a fundamental impact of Mosuo views of their lives, and their souls.

Basically, they view themselves as having two lives; the first is 14 years, and then when that period is finished, they begin the second life, that which was gifted to them by dogs. It is also at this point that a child receives a soul and becomes "human". (I do not at all understand why they aren't considered "human" until they've received the dog's added years, will have to pursue that more in future).

For this reason, also, dogs are very much revered in the Mosuo culture. Pretty well every home will have dogs, and the idea of eating dog is abhorrent to them (one of their historical terms for Han Chinese was the derogatory "dog eaters").

[Morrigan]

Very interesting. :)

[Orphia Nay]

Bump... so this fascinating thread attracts more notice...

... also to repost the link: http://www.mosuoproject.org/

... also to subscribe to this thread.

Wolfman, is it terribly wrong of me to feel a little bit proud of you because I invited you to this forum? :o :) I'm glad I did because your work has been seen by people who have asked intelligent questions - not that I had anything to do with that, of course.

Does your organisation need money, and if so, what would contributions be used for?

[Wolfman]

Orph,

First, I'm very glad that you invited me :)

Second, thanks for the bump, and the compliments!

Third -- yes, we can always use money/donations/etc. Donations don't necessarily have to be money, they can be in the form of services (ie. volunteer to do work for us, which could mean coming to China and working with the Mosuo, or could simply mean working with us to make more people in your own country more aware of the Mosuo and our work with them), supplies (the schools we work with always need supplies, from things as simple as pencils/pens/markers, paper, books, etc., to second-hand computers and other necessary school equipment), expertise (if you have a particular skill/expertise that would be useful for the Mosuo, you could come and teach it to them), etc.

I tend to avoid the fund-raising pitches, as I do not want people to perceive me as just another look-at-these-poor-people-please-give-them-money type of person (think of Sally Struthers). The Mosuo are a strong, proud people, and I try to reflect that in all information and presentations about them. Of course, we have pressing financial needs -- very pressing needs -- but it is my hope that by first engaging people, getting them interested, and fostering understanding, that they will then naturally inquire, "How can I help?".

The problem for donations from outside of China is that we cannot issue tax-deductible receipts. We are registered only in China, and the cost to register/maintain offices in other countries are prohibitive, given our current budget (and another possible way of getting involved would be if someone would offer to register and run a representative office for our organization in their country). But if you don't mind not getting a tax deduction, you can make donations via international bank transfer.

[Wolfman]

Oh, I failed to answer the question of what contributions would be used for. Basically, you get to choose how donations are used. We have a wide variety of projects -- some of which are already underway, others that are still awaiting funding -- and think that the best way to get support is to let each person choose the project that they find most interesting or valuable. Also, unlike many non-profit organizations, where anywhere from 40-80% of your contributions may go to administrative costs, and not the project you actually intended to support, in our organization 100% of your donation will go exactly where it was intended. Most of our people are volunteer, and where we have administrative costs, I either cover those out of my own pocket, or get donations from people who specifically designate their contribution to cover administrative needs. Our website lists some of the things we do, but here is a summary of some of our current focuses:

* The Mosuo Language Project -- this has already been mentioned in previous posts, so I won't go into excessive detail here. We had previously received support from a Canadian linguist, who was able to secure independent financial support, but he kinda' disappeared, so we are currently in limbo. What we could most use right now would be somebody who is already involved in linguistic work, and has connections with individuals or organizations who would be interested to cooperate with us.

* Women's Development -- at present, one of the significant problems facing Mosuo women specifically is the lure of prostitution. Like pretty well every impoverished community in the world, where work/career opportunities are extremely limited by lack of access to education, resources, etc., it is very easy to lure young Mosuo women into prostitution. Most of these girls have minimal education, and no understanding of STDs, so it is easy for them to contract sexual diseases, then transmit them to people back in their home community. This is a very serious problem...the good news is that this is still a very recent development, so not too much damage has been done; the bad news is that it is rapidly becoming a serious problem, and it won't take long for it to grow overwhelming.

We seek to set up training centers where we provide free training to local women, to help give them an alternate viable source of income. Our first such training center trains women how to hand-weave traditional Mosuo clothing, then we help to sell their products in tourist centers, and split the profits between the women and the training center. We actively encourage these women to use their money to buy their own weaving equipment, and do everything themselves, so that they can keep 100% of the income for themselves; in this way, we hope to also encourage greater economic independence, and show the benefits of going through such a training program. There are many other possibilities for the types of training we could do -- training for hospitality, in order to work in hotels, for example -- but we currently lack the funds and resources to do this.

* Men's Development -- While it is generally easier to attract support for women's issues, men's issues tend to be less 'sexy' and 'politically correct'. However, there are serious issues in this regard, also. Traditionally, Mosuo men were traders, who took caravans around the region to trade with others. Thus, traditional male roles focused on trade and travel; traditional female roles focused on jobs at home (tending the fields, tending the animals, cooking, etc.). But now that these caravans are no longer very useful, the primary "male" role has disappeared, and many men are reluctant to take what are perceived as "female" roles. In addition, the area has almost no special natural resources that can be used to build an economic base.

My dream -- and it is a very big dream -- is to simultaneously provide a new "male" role, and to provide a new resource that would result in a strong economic base. My idea as to how to do this is to import alpacas. Alpacas, for those who are unfamiliar with them, are similar to llamas, and live in the Andes mountains, in an environment very similar to that where the Mosuo live. In addition, alpacas are very hardy, and most importantly, their hair is wonderfully soft and delicate, and can be used to make very luxurious clothing. I would like to import breeding alpacas, then train men exclusively in raising, caring for, and breeding them -- thus creating a new "male" role. Once mature, their hair could then be sheared and used to make wonderful clothing which would have significant market value, and also be completely unique in China. (Some websites about alpacas here (http://www.alpacanet.com/)and here (http://www.alpacainfo.com/))

This is very much a long-term plan, with a lot of hurdles to cover. We'd have to get permission from the Chinese gov't to import a foreign species (including environmental impact studies), we'd have to get the money to cover the costs of importing the animals (enough to set up a viable breeding base), we'd have to hire people to come and train the Mosuo how to care for the alpacas, etc. But this, and the language project, are the two about which I am personally most excited and passionate.

* Education Projects -- Of course, we do more 'traditional' types of projects, focusing in particular on education. This includes sponsorship for local students to attend primary and secondary schools, and even college/university. We also seek to provide free training for local teachers, to improve their knowledge/skills; and to provide funds to schools to hire new teachers, when they cannot afford teachers themselves.

* Environmental Projects -- Lugu Lake is an incredibly beautiful area, and still relatively unspoiled. But rapidly increasing tourism presents a significant threat to that, so we are seeking to sponsor and support projects that will protect and preserve that natural beauty, before any serious damage is done. We hope to work with organizations such as Tourism Cares For Tomorrow (http://www.tourismcaresfortomorrow.org) to get this done.

* Cultural Preservation -- The Mosuo have a tremendous cultural legacy; but since they have no written language, most of it is preserved in oral accounts handed down from parent to child. As many of the older generation die, and the younger generation has less interest (or time) to learn this oral history, much knowledge is in danger of being lost. So we want to do as much study, and make as many recordings, as is possible, to preserve this for future generations.

Two of the local Mosuo men have also started their own Mosuo museum, which explains much of the Mosuo history and culture, and seeks to preserve traditional artifacts, ceremonies, etc. But they have few resources to do this, and no background or experience in this area (having said that, it is absolutely incredible what they have accomplished). So we want to provide financial support to expand the museum, and help them gain access to more resources and knowledge to make it more professional and comprehensive.

* Administration -- This is far from the most sexy or glamorous or exciting possibilities to donate to; but as I mentioned above, I want to operate my organization on the principle that 100% of your donation goes exactly where you wanted it to go. Thus, we do not take a portion of donations to cover administration, as is the practice in most NGOs. Of course, this creates limitations for us, such as not being able to hire full-time staff, print brochures, etc. So if people want to make donations to help cover administrative costs, it would really be very, very helpful...as all the other projects really rely on the quality of our administration, and what we can afford to do.

Well...I could go on and on and on, there are a million different things we want to do, and it is hard to say that any one is more important than another. Each individual will have a certain area that interests or excites them, and that's why we encourage people to donate specifically to the projects that they personally are most passionate about.

Again, for more info, you can just go straight to our website; or if there are specific areas you are interested in, ask questions right here (please don't send PMs or emails with questions, unless it involves something private/personal, as any question that you have may be shared by others, and it is easier for me to answer it here, where everyone can see).

[Wolfman]

One more thing...something that would be of phenomenal benefit to us, and would not cost significant time or money for Americans who might be interested in this...

...I mentioned the organization "Tourism Cares For Tomorrow"; they are an amazing American NGO that seeks to promote responsible tourism (ie. tourism that respects local culture, environment, etc.). They do this by providing grants of up to US$100,000 to tourism projects around the world that they consider are sensitive to and support local cultural and environmental issues.

I've already contacted them, and they are very interested in our work; however, some of the documentation that they require in order to complete our application is impossible to get in China (NGOs are still a very new thing in China, with minimal regulation and documentation).

What would REALLY help us would be if someone (or more than one) would help us establish an American office for our organization, and get official tax-exempt and non-profit status. I don't think this costs much money, its mainly an issue of time. Once this was done, we could use that as the basis for applying for these grants, which would make things far, far easier.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Wolfman,

You suckered me to come to this thread and for that I thank you.

I am glad that there are a few original cultures left that will have their own choices about how the adapt to living in in the modern World. As has been noted, we have a terrible history in Canada of not being very good at allowing that.

One question that strikes me (and you have been so good at responding to questions); is there any knowledge of how the culture evolved? It strikes me that the "sneeking in the the window" aspect would suggest that the society evolved from one with a more prudish attitude toward sex.

:eye-poppi

[Wolfman]

Gord,

Given the lack of a written history, any really authoritative answer will be hypothetical at best, however most people (Mosuo and anthropologists ) seem to agree on one particular theory:

The Mosuo were migratory for much of their history, moving from place to place. This situation required the men to travel ahead of everyone else, to scout out the land, and deal with any 'resistance' or attacks along the way. In such a situation, permanent relationships were difficult to maintain, and it became more common for men to just sneak back for one or two nights with a particular lady. While not officially condoned, the people tended to take a "don't ask, don't tell" attitude...and over time, this became a natural part of their culture.

The idea of men sneaking in windows at night is, in fact, not at all unique, and there are many cultures that have similar practices...the difference is that in most other cultures, when the guy sneaks in the girl's window and spends the night with her, he is subsequently expected to marry her. Its the lack of any expectation of marriage which makes this particular practice more unique.

It should be pointed out that in times of war, when young men are being sent off to battle and may not return, we tend to see a very similar phenomenon in our own culture. Suddenly, girls who would normally "wait for the right guy" are giving themselves freely to these "brave young men who may never return"...and parents also tend to be more likely to turn a blind eye to what is happening.

As to the present day, the Mosuo do have sexual taboos, particularly in regards to family members. I'm not talking about incest taboos (although those are very strong), but rather taboos against discussing romantic or sexual relationships with members of the opposite sex within your own family. When I talk with Mosuo about these issues, I have to be very careful to first separate the men from the women...if separate, they'll talk quite openly and freely, but if together, they'll say nothing.

A good example of this...when I first went to visit the Mosuo, at one point I asked one of the young men (around 22 yrs. old) if he had any walking marriage relationships. He said absolutely not (but we were in mixed company, with female members of his family there). But three nights later, he told me he was going to go see his girlfriend, and wanted to know if I'd like to come along to see how the walking marriage was done (by this, he meant only the part up to going in her window, not observing everything). I was a little surprised, as he'd told me he had no such relations, but went along out of curiosity. The next morning, at home, nobody in the house said anything when we had breakfast together, it was just a normal morning; but after the guys left, and I was alone with some of the women, they immediately said, "So you went with our brother to his girlfriend's home last night".

Put the men and women together, they won't talk about it, will deny it even happens. Separate them, they talk about it quite openly and freely. A rather strange taboo, from my point of view, but once you understand it, easy to work around.

[Wolfman]

Farmall,

I'll try to respond with less animosity/aggression than your own post:

First, I'd like to point out that the situations you describe are only superficially similar to the Mosuo at best. To list a few of the key differences:

* There is still an expectation of marriage among many of those you referred to; there is none among the Mosuo

* Many of the children in the communities you refer to are in single-parent homes; among the Mosuo, children live in large extended families of 15-25 people, all of whom share parenting duties.

* In the situations you refer to, it is common for men and women to actually live together for some time (that is, cohabit on a full-time basis), even if there is no intention of getting married; thus, when they separate, there is fighting and bitterness over division of property. Again, among the Mosuo, they never actually live together, never share property, and thus never have any fights over division of property when they split up.

* In the situations you refer to, it is a largely patriarchal system where men are considered more powerful and in control, and women are treated as subservient/inferior (the description of a woman as being "my bitch" being symptomatic of such thinking). Among the Mosuo, it is a matriarchal system, completely different, where women are treated with respect and authority.

Now, all of the points above serve only to illustrate that the situation in Chicago is a far, far distance from being even remotely similar to that I've described with the Mosuo; and I can only conclude that you failed to read much of what I've written at all, if you were able to come to the conclusion that they are the same, or even similar.

For you, it seems to be simply, "Lots of people not getting married, and having lots of kids, and living in poverty". A gross oversimplification that says more about the person making it, than about the issues being discussed.

I'd also posit, besides identifying the above-stated significant cultural differences, that there are also significant social, economic, and political differences. The Mosuo, for example, don't grow up in an environment rife with violence, where 12 year old kids carry guns to school, and you can get killed because someone wants to take your sneakers. Mosuo kids don't have to stay in their apartments by themselves because their parents are working multiple jobs and can't be at home.

Mosuo women are not daily subjected to an environment where they are referred to as "bitches", and where their value is generally determined according to their willingness to do whatever their man wants. Mosuo women don't have to worry that if they have sex with multiple men, they'll be branded a "slut". Mosuo women don't have to worry that if they have a baby out of wedlock, their parents will kick them out, and/or they'll have to raise the baby by themselves. Mosuo women don't have to worry about being beaten/abused routinely (among the Mosuo, not only is this almost impossible to hide, but a man who does it will be beaten severely for doing so).

Mosuo men don't grow up in an environment where breaking the law is a requirement to be considered a "real man". Mosuo men don't grow up in an environment where wearing the wrong colors in the wrong neighborhood can get you killed.

I could go on and on and on. In fact, I'd say that the problems you describe are far more a result of problems in Western culture/economics/society, than having any relation to or correlation with the Mosuo.

As I've stated above, several times, the Mosuo are far from a utopian society, and they have many problems of their own. And, as I've stated above, I don't believe that the Mosuo system could be feasibly transplanted into Western culture in its entirety; I have a hard time seeing Western families suddenly changing to have 15-25 people in the same family spending their entire lives living together in the same home.

So, in conclusion...I fail to see any correlation whatsoever between the situation you've described, and the topic of the Mosuo.

[Wolfman]

I think I'd like to add a little more to my previous post; this is not so much in regard to the Mosuo culture specifically, but rather some things that we might be able to learn from them, and perhaps apply to at least some degree within our own cultures.

I'm surprised (and grateful to the majority of forum members) that my discussion of the Mosuo got this far before meeting someone like Farmell...in other forums where I've introduced this, this has been the type of reaction I've come to expect. Essentially, "It is different than us, here's a group of people I don't like who seem to act the same way, therefore it is wrong". Or, even more simply, "That's sinful, its wrong."

The debate often comes down to the issue of "monogamy" and "the sanctity of marriage" vs. a system that is seen as promoting promiscuity, and threatening/rejecting god-blessed unions.

I'd like to just mention a few points in this regard:

* In Western marriages, based on the Judeo-Christian ethic of monogamy and marital union, not only is divorce still very common, but so are rates of physical/emotional/sexual abuse. While such things are not unknown among the Mosuo, incidences are far, far lower, specifically because of the large extended family structure, where keeping such activities secret or hidden is almost impossible. In addition, since women are the head of the house and in charge, abuse of women is tolerated far, far less among the Mosuo than it has tended to be in Western society.

* Divorces in the West are both common, and tend to be very traumatic. Fighting over division of property/assets, fighting over possession of the children, etc. Again, with the Mosuo, these things do not happen, resulting in much greater stability both in general, and more specifically for the children.

* In the West, there is a tendency for people to stay in very harmful relationships -- where they are being physically/emotionally/sexually abused -- because it is perceived as their "responsibility" or "obligation" to do so. Again, among the Mosuo, since there is never any expectation that you should spend your life with one person, and changing partners is completely acceptable, the incidence of such problems is far, far lower.

I'm not saying that we should all become like the Mosuo; the Mosuo also suffer from the results of religious superstitions that cause them to reject medical care, for example. And as I've said before, I very strongly doubt that adopting the Mosuo extended family system is remotely realistic or practical in most Western countries.

But I think that there are things that can be learned. There are specific abuses and problems that are far more common in Western culture (and, in fact, in most cultures) than they are among the Mosuo. And I can hardly see how trying to learn something from that, and possibly find a compromise between the two cultures that will benefit us, can be a negative thing.

[quixotecoyote]

I wonder how much of the minimization of problems in Mosuo culture comes from the smaller scope of the society. Do you think it could it hold together under the economic/social conditions necessary for a large nation?

[Wolfman]

I don't think I can give an absolute, quantifiable answer to that question; however, I'd like to point out that other Chinese minorities who live in the same region, have similar populations, and face similar living circumstances, but do not share the Mosuo culture, tend to have much the same problems that I discussed above.

There are several other minorities in the same area, including the Yi, the Pumi, and the Naxi. The Yi and Pumi, in particular, are more 'traditional' patriarchal cultures, that practice marriage, etc. Anthropological studies that have compared these different groups have tended to show that rates of abuse are higher, and social stability (especially for children) is much lower, in these other minorities, than among the Mosuo.

I don't think its a terribly wild claim to suppose that a culture in which men and women never share/combine property, there will be less fighting/trauma over division of that property when they split. Or that in a culture where the mother's family bears sole responsibility for her children, that the separation of the parents will be less traumatic for the child.

However, transplanting such practices into our own culture is an entirely different affair. For example, among the Mosuo, an individual doesn't really own property or money...instead, everything belongs to the family as a whole, and the matriarch of the family determines how it is divided or used. In Western culture, by contrast, we tend to put significant emphasis on individual ownership and control of property. When I get a job, and make money, that money is my money...I don't just give it all to my family, and let my grandmother decide how to use it.

Changing this within our own cultures would require not only significant cultural changes, but also shifts in our legal system, and perceptions of ownership of property. The Mosuo would consider it ludicrous to 'demand' that a father provide money for his child's upbringing; but would likewise consider it completely unacceptable for a brother to refuse to give money to help raise his sister's child. So among the Mosuo, if one were to sue for child support, you'd sue your brother, not the child's father (I am speaking hypothetically, if we were to transfer this to our own culture...the Mosuo don't actually do this themselves). A "deadbeat dad" would be a brother or uncle who made money, but refused to give it to the family; whereas the biological father would never be expected to contribute a cent.

I think it would be fascinating to consider the ramifications if we did try to institute such changes; but that belongs more in the realm of fiction/fantasy than of reality.

[quixotecoyote]

I wasn't suggesting to try transplanting their culture. i have my own cultural, filters of course, but in most instances I accept the value of preserving exsisting cultures when they don't impinge on mine.

My thought go more along the lines of how the society would adapt to an expanding population. Let's say that for some reason, tomorrow the rest of China finds the Mosuo culture irresistable and adopts their practices wholesale. Could the culture survive intact or would massive internal change occur leading to their social norms becoming more similiar to those most of us are familiar with.

At a cursory glance I'd say that it could make the transition. I've often argued with people claiming the superiority of a pre-agricutural tribal culture (I realise the Kosuo are not pre-agricultural or particularly tribal) that the unique aspects of that culture they find preferable would not scale up, and their disapperance was the natural extension of the growth of the population.

I'm not seeing that here. Certain things would become much more difficult. Who you were and were not related to would probably require an electronic database as the possible relative combiniations would surpass the limits of a matriarch's memory. The STD issue has already been brought up, presenting a challenge to a large population that could not effectively isolate itself from disease as in the status quo.

On the other hand the problems with cultural role of men would resolve itself with a much wider variety of roles to fill.

Wasn't taking a position. It's just interesting to mull over.

[The Atheist]

Fascinating stuff, Wolfman, certainly exactly the type of thing we should talk about more of here - it is an educational foundation after all.

My question concerns whether you might be doing more harm than good.

By promoting the wonderful lifestyle of the Mosuo, you may encourage further tourism and exploitation, which appears to be well entrenched already. (http://www.time.com/time/asia/features/china_cul_rev/minorities.html) I can't see any way that the culture will stand up to this type of exploitation, and while I doubt you're there for the profit, you might end up encouraging the death of the very thing you're working to preserve.

Comments?

[Wolfman]

I wasn't suggesting to try transplanting their culture. i have my own cultural, filters of course, but in most instances I accept the value of preserving exsisting cultures when they don't impinge on mine.

My thought go more along the lines of how the society would adapt to an expanding population. Let's say that for some reason, tomorrow the rest of China finds the Mosuo culture irresistable and adopts their practices wholesale. Could the culture survive intact or would massive internal change occur leading to their social norms becoming more similiar to those most of us are familiar with.

At a cursory glance I'd say that it could make the transition. I've often argued with people claiming the superiority of a pre-agricutural tribal culture (I realise the Kosuo are not pre-agricultural or particularly tribal) that the unique aspects of that culture they find preferable would not scale up, and their disapperance was the natural extension of the growth of the population.

I'm not seeing that here. Certain things would become much more difficult. Who you were and were not related to would probably require an electronic database as the possible relative combiniations would surpass the limits of a matriarch's memory. The STD issue has already been brought up, presenting a challenge to a large population that could not effectively isolate itself from disease as in the status quo.

On the other hand the problems with cultural role of men would resolve itself with a much wider variety of roles to fill.

Wasn't taking a position. It's just interesting to mull over.
Well...given that all of this is purely hypothetical...I'll give a few of my own responses/thoughts on the subject.

First, cultures change and evolve. This is a simple fact of life. Exposure to other cultures, changes in economic/political situation, or many other such factors all serve to change cultures. As mentioned previously, the Mosuo culture has itself gone through very significant changes, particularly the change from a feudal system with nobility and peasants (and one where nobility were patriarchal and peasants were matriarchal), to a more egalitarian system where they are mostly matriarchal, and roughly equal in status.

So I don't think that it would be logical to argue that under any situation, the Mosuo culture would stay the same. It is going to change and evolve. As all cultures do.

Given that, there is still the issue of whether a culture, as it changes, retains unique traits of its past culture; or if it changes so radically that there is little/no similarity between the current and past cultures.

Now, lets assume a slightly modified version of your hypothesis...for example, some terrible plague hits China, killing most of the Han Chinese majority. The Mosuo, relatively unaffected, now have the opportunity to grow rapidly, and expand throughout China. Over a period of several hundred years, they do just that, increasing exponentially in size as they do so.

Given such a situation, I do think that it would still be quite reasonable to assume that they'd be able to maintain many of the more unique aspects of their culture; by that, I mean that there would not implicitly be anything that would require them to abandon such practices, or make them impractical. I think that the idea of walking marriages, or having children reared by the mother's family, would be among the traits most likely/feasible to survive, also.

However, given human nature, I think that some changes would also be inevitable. Economic development -- ie. greater individual wealth -- always seems to lead towards a sense of greater individual independence. When nobody has much, and sharing is necessary, then it is easy to sacrifice individual ownership in favor of the group. But when you know that you have more than enough money to survive on your own, and that everyone else in the family has more than enough money to survive on their own, then the need for such 'communal property' disappears almost entirely, and you are very likely to develop a cultural sense of individual ownership and independence. I believe that this principle is fairly well reflected in pretty much every culture on the planet that has gone through such an economic transition.

So, assuming that the Mosuo not only increased in population size, but also in economic wealth, I think that you'd see the larger extended families decreasing in size, and smaller nuclear families becoming more common. As that happened, you'd also then face the issue of mothers now having to care for children by themselves, or with the help of only a few family members, rather than being able to rely on the larger family structure that currently exists. Of course, one possibility would be to put legislation in place that codified a brother's/uncle's responsibilities to provide assistance for their sisters/nieces (the mirror of our own legislation mandating the same thing for the biological father of a child).

But in the end...no, I do not think that this system would last long-term in a large-scale, developed society. Aspects of it would survive, yes. But certain changes and adaptations would also be necessary. You'd likely end up with some combination of our western practices, and the Mosuo practices, such as still having no marriage, but increasing a father's financial responsibilities for his offspring; or the decrease in family size, becoming more nuclear, but having those nuclear families made up of brothers and sisters, rather than of husbands and wives; etc.

[Orphia Nay]

Fascinating stuff, Wolfman, certainly exactly the type of thing we should talk about more of here - it is an educational foundation after all.

My question concerns whether you might be doing more harm than good.

By promoting the wonderful lifestyle of the Mosuo, you may encourage further tourism and exploitation, which appears to be well entrenched already. (http://www.time.com/time/asia/features/china_cul_rev/minorities.html) I can't see any way that the culture will stand up to this type of exploitation, and while I doubt you're there for the profit, you might end up encouraging the death of the very thing you're working to preserve.

Comments?

Interesting question, TA, and just a brief opinion from me.

I'd have to disagree that Wolfman is merely "promoting the wonderful lifestyle" of the Mosuo. While he is enlightening many as to the existence of the Mosuo, his project is highlighting the difficulties the Mosuo face with respect to education, health, and preservation of their culture.

[Wolfman]

Fascinating stuff, Wolfman, certainly exactly the type of thing we should talk about more of here - it is an educational foundation after all.

My question concerns whether you might be doing more harm than good.

By promoting the wonderful lifestyle of the Mosuo, you may encourage further tourism and exploitation, which appears to be well entrenched already. (http://www.time.com/time/asia/features/china_cul_rev/minorities.html) I can't see any way that the culture will stand up to this type of exploitation, and while I doubt you're there for the profit, you might end up encouraging the death of the very thing you're working to preserve.

Comments?
This is one of the biggest questions that I must face, and one that I ask myself regularly. However, at this point, tourism and exploitation are already happening, and it is inevitable that they're going to increase. Would I stop it if I could? I don't know. But can I stop it, or even slow it down? Not really.

Thus, I'm in a position of having to deal with pragmatic reality, rather than the ideal of how we might want it to be. Tourism is going to continue to increase. Exploitation is going to continue to increase. Exposure to and interference from the outside world is going to continue to increase. These are pragmatic facts, this is the reality of the situation. And it is that reality that we must deal with.

To me, the question is not "Are the Mosuo going to change?" or "Are the Mosuo going to be affected by the outside world?". The answer to both is an unequivocal "Yes." The question, rather, is "Are these changes going to be controlled/guided by the Mosuo themselves, or by outsiders?"

My goal is to give as much control to the Mosuo themselves as possible; not to stop change from happening (which is, at this point, impossible), but rather to give the Mosuo the tools, the resources, and the knowledge to control that change as much as they can, and to retain vital aspects of their culture as it takes place.

This is why I am the only non-Mosuo member of our organization...and why I have no vote in what projects they will do, or what their priorities are. All of these things are determined by the Mosuo themselves. My only role is that, after they've set their priorities and determined their projects. to help them find the necessary money, resources, and people to accomplish those goals and complete those projects.

Inevitably, this is not a perfect system, and certainly there will be outside influence. But, in my opinion, it gives the Mosuo themselves the greatest opportunity to take control of their own lives, and their own futures. The only other viable alternative, given the current realities of the situation, is to just watch them get steamrolled by the outside world...as has happened to so many other minority cultures throughout the world.

[Wolfman]

Interesting question, TA, and just a brief opinion from me.

I'd have to disagree that Wolfman is merely "promoting the wonderful lifestyle" of the Mosuo. While he is enlightening many as to the existence of the Mosuo, his project is highlighting the difficulties the Mosuo face with respect to education, health, and preservation of their culture.
Thanks, Orph...and a very good point. In explaining the Mosuo culture, there is of course a tendency for me to focus on those aspects which I find most fascinating, and/or positive. I recognize this tendency, and try to balance it out by also explaining the very real problems and struggles that the Mosuo have. Yes, there are some problems (such as sexual abuse of females) which seem to be far less prevalent in Mosuo culture than in most other cultures, and I think it is worth noting this. But there are also some problems that are more prevalent among the Mosuo than in other cultures (for example, there are serious questions revolving around the psychological impact on a child of being considered "not human" until they reach around 14 years of age, and finally receive their human soul).

I'm not trying to promote an idea that Western culture should "learn from the Mosuo" in the context that we should adopt their practices/culture; but rather that we should "learn from the Mosuo" in the context that understanding another culture so different from our own can lead to greater insights into our own culture, and reveal alternatives that we may not have otherwise considered. Just as I believe the Mosuo can benefit from and learn from contact with other cultures, so long as they are able to determine for themselves how that knowledge impacts them, and what changes they will make.

[The Atheist]

Cheers. Makes perfect sense and I agree with you on the changes happening regardless - it's clearly too late, so you may have success at damage control.

Good luck with it!

[Wolfman]

Thanks! Your question is one of the most common ones I have to deal with, and is really a very important one. Good intentions don't necessarily mean that you're doing the right thing, and this is a question that I must both ask myself regularly, and answer in response to questions from others.

I think it is important to clarify this issue in particular, to make it clear that this is not a case of some "great white savior" coming in and telling the Mosuo what to do; quite the opposite, I do my best to distance myself as far as possible from the actual decisions about what will be done, and to focus only on helping them to accomplish the goals that they've set for themselves. Sometimes, I may not personally agree with those decisions -- but it is their life, their culture, their future, their children...they are the only ones who have the right to make those decisions. And, inevitably, some of those decisions may prove to be wrong, but it is my hope that the majority will prove to be right.

One further note here...it is a very difficult balancing act for me to pull off. It would, in fact, be very easy for me to become the 'benevolent dictator'. I am the one, after all, who holds the purse strings. In addition, the many different leaders in our committee have a lot of past history with each other, some of it not very good at all. There are a lot of interpersonal conflicts and rivalries. When I am not there (which is most of the time), things tend to get bogged down in interpersonal battles, and be guided by grudges as much as by a desire to help.

As the only 'neutral' party, basically being liked and respected by everyone in the committee, it often falls on me to get authoritative, and force them to sit down, discuss the issues, and reach concrete conclusions. And I've had to do this on more than one occasion. Thus, already, I have a larger role than I'd anticipated, and it would be very easy for me to take that just a little farther, and start telling them what I think they should do. And I am, by nature, a leader. I'm not so good at just following what other say. I like to be the one making the decisions, in fact, I prefer it. I know for a fact that things would go faster and more smoothly if I could simply tell everyone what to do, rather than wait for them to work through their personal conflicts and reach a decision. And I'm sure that I could help them avoid some mistakes if I refused to do certain things that they want to do.

But that's all short-term thinking...it provides a short-term benefit in getting things done more quickly, but long-term it makes the Mosuo dependent on others to make their decisions, and determine what is best for them. Again, my goal is to empower them to be able to do these things on their own...and that means letting them make mistakes, and bearing patiently with delays and problems that I see as entirely irrelevant or avoidable. Short-term, it means things happen more slowly, and less efficiently. But long-term, it builds a base of leadership who will have greater and greater competence in doing all these things themselves.

One of my greatest dreams for this organization is to reach the day where my role, or the role of any other outsider, becomes entirely unnecessary, and the Mosuo can do everything for themselves.

[The Atheist]

Sounds like you're doing a magnificent job, keep it up!

I'm off to find out why this thread isn't in the "Interesting Threads" forum!

[Orphia Nay]

Good move, TA.

Wolfman, you are doing an excellent job! I really can't find fault with your attitude and your organisational plan.

I've thought of another question. Are there any statistics on the Mosuo's individual life expectancy? Especially in comparison to the Chinese.

[Wolfman]

Orph,

There are a number of different stats one can look at in regards to life expectancy. I cannot give any links here to specific studies, but based on my own observations, conversations with Mosuo, and discussions with other anthropologists, I can at least give some general info.

First, infant mortality rates have been quite high in the past; with minimal access to decent health care, and a complete lack of understanding about sanitation (bacteria, viruses, etc.), this is pretty much inevitable. In fact, it is theorized by some anthropologists that the whole thing of not considering a child to be fully human until they are 14 was partly a coping mechanism to deal with high rates of infant death; a child who makes it to 14 is far more likely to make it to old age than a child who has only made it to 5 years of age, in that environment.

This is improving now, but rates of infant deaths (whether in childbirth, or due to disease, or accidents, etc.) would still be far higher than for Chinese in more developed regions of China. In addition, completely treatable conditions -- tumors, cancers, blindness, cleft palate, etc. -- are generally left untreated, due to lack of access to adequate health care, and/or lack of money to cover the costs of such treatments. Or they may simply prefer the rituals of a local priest, to the ministrations of a doctor.

As can be surmised from this, diseases will tend to be more common, as will deaths from such diseases. This again increases mortality rates, across all age groups.

Now, all of this having been said -- the Mosuo are, for the most part, a very hardy and healthy people. For those who are lucky enough to avoid (or survive) the ravages of disease, injury, etc., they can live to quite a ripe old age. I'm met a number of Mosuo women in their 80's or 90's who are still quite healthy and spry, and in full command of their mental faculties.

So, in general, I'd say that if they had the same general lifestyle -- work, diet, etc. -- but improved medical care and knowledge, we'd see a very fast and significant increase in overall average lifespans.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Subbing.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Gord,

Given the lack of a written history, any really authoritative answer will be hypothetical at best, however most people (Mosuo and anthropologists ) seem to agree on one particular theory:

The Mosuo were migratory for much of their history, moving from place to place. This situation required the men to travel ahead of everyone else, to scout out the land, and deal with any 'resistance' or attacks along the way. In such a situation, permanent relationships were difficult to maintain, and it became more common for men to just sneak back for one or two nights with a particular lady. While not officially condoned, the people tended to take a "don't ask, don't tell" attitude...and over time, this became a natural part of their culture.

The idea of men sneaking in windows at night is, in fact, not at all unique, and there are many cultures that have similar practices...the difference is that in most other cultures, when the guy sneaks in the girl's window and spends the night with her, he is subsequently expected to marry her. Its the lack of any expectation of marriage which makes this particular practice more unique.

It should be pointed out that in times of war, when young men are being sent off to battle and may not return, we tend to see a very similar phenomenon in our own culture. Suddenly, girls who would normally "wait for the right guy" are giving themselves freely to these "brave young men who may never return"...and parents also tend to be more likely to turn a blind eye to what is happening.

As to the present day, the Mosuo do have sexual taboos, particularly in regards to family members. I'm not talking about incest taboos (although those are very strong), but rather taboos against discussing romantic or sexual relationships with members of the opposite sex within your own family. When I talk with Mosuo about these issues, I have to be very careful to first separate the men from the women...if separate, they'll talk quite openly and freely, but if together, they'll say nothing.

A good example of this...when I first went to visit the Mosuo, at one point I asked one of the young men (around 22 yrs. old) if he had any walking marriage relationships. He said absolutely not (but we were in mixed company, with female members of his family there). But three nights later, he told me he was going to go see his girlfriend, and wanted to know if I'd like to come along to see how the walking marriage was done (by this, he meant only the part up to going in her window, not observing everything). I was a little surprised, as he'd told me he had no such relations, but went along out of curiosity. The next morning, at home, nobody in the house said anything when we had breakfast together, it was just a normal morning; but after the guys left, and I was alone with some of the women, they immediately said, "So you went with our brother to his girlfriend's home last night".

Put the men and women together, they won't talk about it, will deny it even happens. Separate them, they talk about it quite openly and freely. A rather strange taboo, from my point of view, but once you understand it, easy to work around.

Thanks. I learned all my Anthropology from Margaret Mead so, needless to say, I am completely clueless about such things. :D

[Roswell-Perseis]

Wolfman,

The Mosuo project is a wonderful endeavor and I hope you experience continuing success. Thanks for the update!

Q: Do you believe the Mosuo's lack of "monetary success" is a position relative to the rest of China or is it more insidious within the Mosuo culture? If not for the invention of medicine and other services would the Mosuo have the notion of some sort of neediness? Furthermore, how do the Mosuo feel about the friction between their culture and that of a technologically advanced society? Do the Mosuo have any type of socio-economic stratification?

[Wolfman]

R-P,

Some very good questions, that really get at the heart of the issue. First, the "poverty" is very much a relative thing. If taken in isolation, the Mosuo are almost entirely self-sufficient. They raise their own food, and are well fed; they have homes, clothing, etc. Within their own communities, they have a largely cashless system of commerce, based on barter of goods and services. So, as long as there is no need for contact with or interaction with the outside world, there is not really a big problem.

And this is where the whole "wouldn't it be better to leave them alone" element comes in...there is a very valid (and emotionally appealing) argument to be made that if they're happy and self-sufficient the way they are, why bother them with the 'problems' of the outside world? As I've stated elsewhere, while this makes for great philosophical debate, the pragmatic reality is that the outside world is already there, and there's no turning backwards (unless you're going to tell the Mosuo, "Hey, we're sorry...we're going to take away your electricity, close down the roads, tear down the schools, remove your TVs, DVD players, and return you to the way you were before).

The pragmatic reality is that the Mosuo have gotten a taste of the outside world -- through TV, through school, through contact with outsiders, etc. -- and they are curious about it. While some of them want to stay in their own communities and continue with their 'traditional' life, others want to travel to other places, learn other knowledge, get other jobs, experience other cultures, meet other people, etc. And they require money for this.

It is here that "poverty" becomes an issue. Putting aside the subsistence living, the actual cash income of the average Mosuo is around US$ 100/year. That isn't even enough money to cover all the costs of sending their children to high school or university (quick clarification -- high school is 'free' so far as tuition is concerned; but most high schools are so far away from the Mosuo communities that the only option is for parents to board their children full-time at those schools, which means they must pay room, board, etc.).

And what if Mosuo want to start their own hotels, or their own tourism companies? Where do they get the money to even begin to compete with the outsiders who are encroaching on their culture?

Personally, I don't think that every Mosuo child needs to get a high school or university education...perhaps not even a full primary school education. If they are happy staying in their own community, doing the same jobs and living the same lives as their parents and their grandparents, they can learn everything they need from their own families. But they should have the choice and the freedom to get more education, and to try other opportunities, if that is what they wish to do.

Now, when you talk about medical issues, it becomes much clearer in terms of the issues involved. Every time I visit the Mosuo, I see people of all ages suffering from problems that are completely treatable, completely avoidable...but nothing is done, because they lack the money to get treatment. Barter doesn't work when you are taking your mother to a hospital 80 kilometers away to have surgery on the tumor growing on her jaw.

So yes...it is very much a relative thing. The Mosuo are "poor" or live in "poverty" only by comparison with the Han Chinese majority; but, for better or worse, the Mosuo are no longer isolated, they are becoming more and more a part of the Han Chinese world. And the only way for them to survive and and compete in that world is for them to get more education, develop more knowledge/skills, have more resources, start their own businesses, etc.

The 'good news' in this regard is that I've found the Mosuo to be an eminently flexible and pragmatic people...they adapt to new situations very quickly, and while they want to preserve their culture, they tend to view it as a growing, evolving culture that is able to accept outside ideas and incorporate them within their culture. If you visit there, you will be truly amazed at what they have accomplished with so little actual training or money. The Mosuo Museum I mentioned earlier is a prime example of this -- started by two Mosuo men who wanted to preserve their cultural heritage, and also present an accurate portrayal of the culture to outsiders. With no previous knowledge or experience of doing anything like this, and rallying together the support of the entire Mosuo community, they build a museum which, while fairly simple, is of excellent quality and very high standards. And they're always looking to improve it.

In every single project we've done thus far, where we've provided funding for a project that they've identified as important, the money has not only been used effectively, but they have done more with it than we'd expected, and have worked very hard to get every bit of practical use out of it that they can. The women's training center I mentioned earlier is a great example of this...we gave them money to buy weaving looms and basic materials, and to hire teachers. Not only did they accomplish everything they said they would, but the entire community, seeing how useful this was, pitched in to help and support the training center.

Thus, I have no doubt whatsoever that, if given the opportunity, many Mosuo will learn and adapt quite rapidly, and will be able to take back control over the changes that are taking place in their communities/culture, and control their own futures. I don't really see this as "poverty alleviation"...I see it more as empowerment.

[Orphia Nay]

Wolfman,

The Mosuo project is a wonderful endeavor and I hope you experience continuing success. Thanks for the update!

Q: Do you believe the Mosuo's lack of "monetary success" is a position relative to the rest of China or is it more insidious within the Mosuo culture? If not for the invention of medicine and other services would the Mosuo have the notion of some sort of neediness? Furthermore, how do the Mosuo feel about the friction between their culture and that of a technologically advanced society? Do the Mosuo have any type of socio-economic stratification?

They're rather convoluted questions. :) Perhaps what you're asking is what do the Mosuo really need? (Which Wolfman pretty much answered already.)

I think it's a bit odd to say "if not for the invention of medicine...". We do not even treat animals that way - depriving them of care. Or, we try not to deprive them of care. Furthermore, medicine exists. Why send the Mosuo back to the dark ages?

Perhaps Wolfman can explain further the Mosuo's attitude towards medicine, technology, and modern products - food, clothes etc (if such generalisations are possible, as I'm sure attitudes differ from person to person).

eta: oops, should have refreshed the page.

[Wolfman]

Perhaps Wolfman can explain further the Mosuo's attitude towards medicine, technology, and modern products - food, clothes etc.
Medicine is a very tricky issue; the Mosuo, for the most part, still consider illness to be caused by evil spirits or angry gods. The first stage in treatment of any illness will be to call in the Daba priest, and have him perform various ceremonies to restore harmony. If this fails, the priest may then be called on to do some sort of divination, and determine what actions the family needs to take to rid themselves of this affliction. This action may include advising them to go to a hospital, but is far from being a foregone conclusion.

Trying to explain bacteria and viruses (much less genetic diseases) is an exercise in futility in many cases; the idea of microscopic creatures they can't even see causing disease seems as ridiculous and deluded to them as their belief it is caused by evil spirits seems to us. The younger generation, who have received at least a basic education, are changing in this regard...but they're not the decision makers.

So, in many cases, hospitals are the option of last resort, to be taken only if every other possible 'treatment' has been exhausted. But hospitals are generally quite far away (families may end up travelling 8-12 hours to get to the nearest decent hospital), and the costs are often way too high for the average Mosuo family. Add to that the fact that many Mosuo don't go to the hospital until it is too late (and die anyway), and the Mosuo just don't see much value in spending so much money for treatments that they don't understand, and that don't seem to help anyone anyway.

As the Daba priest is generally the main source of advice in any community, one of our potential strategies is to focus on educating the Dabas about medicine; if we could convince them of the value of proper medical care, they'd then recommend it to Mosuo families, who would do it because that's what the priest told them to do. There is one young Daba priest with whom I am very good friends, and we spend a lot of time together. He is woefully uneducated in anything except the Daba religion (he didn't even complete grade one of primary school, speaks faltering Chinese, and is completely illiterate); but he's one of the nicest, most sincere guys I've ever met, and he's responded quite positively to my efforts to give him more knowledge. I just have to be careful to present information in a way that does not directly contradict his own religious beliefs.

So, for example, when I was explaining viruses and bacteria to him, at first he was just overwhelmed, found it beyond comprehension. Then, at one point, I said, "Well, you can't see ghosts, spirits, or gods, but you believe in them, right?". His response was not what I'd expected -- "Oh, so you mean this is just your version of ghosts and spirits!". That was not what I meant...but it provided a convenient hook that allowed him to incorporate what I was telling him into his faith. By the same token, when I talked about medicines, vaccines, etc., he remained resistant and uncomprehending until I equated medical treatments with the ceremonies he does to defeat evil spirits.

Thus, his actual understanding of "medicine" is rather comical (from our perspective)...his view on it is that medicine is basically just another religious means of doing what he does: that is, defeat evil spirits with the judicious application of the appropriate ceremonies. But, for all that it is inaccurate, it serves its purpose...if he performs his own ceremonies, and they don't work, he will then immediately suggest that people try a hospital, where perhaps their ceremonies will prove more effective.

And I want to emphasize here that I don't intend this to be patronizing, or anything like that. This man is a close friend, and someone for whom I have phenomenal respect. He is one of the members of our committee, and one of our most important resources in terms of recording and preserving the Mosuo oral history. His background and education give him a view of the world that is radically different than mine, and it is my responsibility to first understand his perspective and beliefs, and then find a way to work within that structure, rather than to simply treat him like some ignorant simpleton and expect him to abandon everything he believes and think/act like I want him to.

The process of change is slow, and gradual. And it will become even more difficult if we fail to demonstrate respect for their culture and beliefs. Long-term, education and exposure to the outside world will inevitably shift or change their beliefs -- sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. In this project, one must take the long-term perspective; not thinking in terms of a few years, but thinking in terms of decades.

[Wolfman]

Oh, and in regards to things like clothes, technology, etc....

...clothing is, for the most part, 'normal' clothing...jeans, t-shirts, etc. They do have traditional clothing, but at least in the case of younger Mosuo, this is usually worn only for special occasions.

And no problem with technology. The Mosuo can "see" that it works (as opposed to microorganisms), and while they may not understand the "how", that's not so important. The Mosuo are very ecumenical and flexible in their belief system...if you can show them it works, they accept it.

Consider that this is a culture that has two entirely different religions -- Daba and Tibetan Buddhism -- existing simultaneously side-by-side. Many of the beliefs of the two religions would seem, to the western mind, to be in opposition to each other. But for the Mosuo, there is no such conflict. Whatever works, works. The "why" is just not that terribly important, they live in a world where most things that happen, happen for reasons beyond their control or comprehension.

In fact, this leads to a rather humorous/ironic little story. The Mosuo culture is very much a fate-oriented culture...everything that happens happens for a reason, and is determined by forces beyond their control. Therefore, the idea of "taking control of their fate/destiny" not only seems pointless, it is actually seen as dangerous and harmful, fighting against the will of powers that are greater than you.

So, when I first started talking about setting up this organization and these projects, I met tremendous resistance. Not in the form of "we don't want this", but in the form of "We don't know if this is what we are supposed to do". In this regard, getting support of the Daba priests (who pretty much determine everything in regards to what should or should not be done, when it should be done, where it should be done, etc.) is crucial.

However, once I had actually managed to get a few Mosuo on my side, and we established our organization, their attitude did a 100% reversal, and they became very excited about and supportive of our work, throwing themselves into it with great enthusiasm. Why? Because we had been successful in doing it (where many others had failed), which in and of itself was an indication that this is what is supposed to happen. Thus, quite ironically, an atheistic foreigner ended up being their supernatural confirmation that what we were doing was ordained by fate.

[Schneibster]

Fascinating, Wolfman. I can understand your respect for this culture; you are doing good, and I hope you do well. ;)

[Caius Textor]

First of all, I think you´re doing a very respectable job, Wolfman. I was particularly interested in the linguistic effort your project is engaged in.
That aside:

I love to know more about different cultures because it helps to make clearer who and what mankind as a whole is. The particular cultures arising everywhere show us what humans can and can´t do, what happens and what never happens. It helps to understand ourselves.

I might admire how this or that culture faces a particular human problem, but I am VERY skeptical of any atempt at emulating these practices. I believe that each culture has problems/advantages based on how they are as a whole; it´s difficult to pinpoint what exactly is the cause of that, even in the over-anylised, over-studied western societies, let alone a small, poorly documented one (with no disrespect to your and other´s work with them).

Also, yourself have pointed the many problems (and potencial problems, like STDs) they suffer, so I don´t see how their society as a whole has any kind of advantage over any other.
Their practices regarding mariage seems deeply rooted on their ancestral practices in other social "areas" such as producing riches, job division, etc. It works in that framework and we lack the proper tools of analisys to know if it would work in any other (I´m not a cultural relativist).

Western society (religious bigots apart) is already learning the most valuable tool of all: we can look at ourselves and change by our own means. Self-correction.
I´m no anthropologist, so correct me if I´m wrong: looking at your own habits and customs and judging them seems to be THE most frequent taboo in any society. We are moving past that stage.

Bottom line? I don´t see why we should try a compromise. Maybe someday we will arrive at the same "conclusion" the Mosuo have regarding marriage. But let that be by our own hands.

[Wolfman]

Caius,

Actually, I think I'd agree almost 100% with what you said. It is not my intention in any way to promote the idea that Western culture should adopt Mosuo culture or practices. In fact, much of my work focuses on opposing people who seek to present inaccurate, idealized versions of Mosuo culture and use that as an argument for doing the same things in the West (primarily lesbian/feminist groups) (and no, I have no problems with lesbians or feminists in general, only with those who seek to distort or misrepresent Mosuo culture in the pursuit of their own personal agendas).

I believe that knowing about and understanding Mosuo culture (and, for that matter, and other culture) can be very valuable in that it can present alternative perspectives that we might not otherwise consider, and it can cause us to look at and question certain presuppositions we have within our own cultures. For example, most people I know would, as an initial reaction, dismiss as utterly ridiculous and unrealistic a culture in which fathers had no responsibility for their children, but rather were responsible for their sisters' children. Yet the Mosuo (and a few other cultures) do just this.

Seeking to inform people about the Mosuo does not mean seeking to proselytize them to become like the Mosuo. As I've mentioned in several different posts here, I think it would actually be pretty much impossible to transplant many aspects of Mosuo culture into Western culture.

On the flip side of that, I think it is wrong to assume that outside cultures are superior to Mosuo culture, and that therefore the Mosuo should change; but I do believe the Mosuo should have the opportunity to learn about and understand other cultures, and to contast that with their own. And then choose for themselves if they want to change, or stay the same.

My perspective on both sides is pretty much the same. I'm not trying to make anyone change. Just providing a better avenue for discussion, communication, and cooperation between those different groups.

[Caius Textor]

So, for example, when I was explaining viruses and bacteria to him, at first he was just overwhelmed, found it beyond comprehension. Then, at one point, I said, "Well, you can't see ghosts, spirits, or gods, but you believe in them, right?". His response was not what I'd expected -- "Oh, so you mean this is just your version of ghosts and spirits!". That was not what I meant...but it provided a convenient hook that allowed him to incorporate what I was telling him into his faith. By the same token, when I talked about medicines, vaccines, etc., he remained resistant and uncomprehending until I equated medical treatments with the ceremonies he does to defeat evil spirits.

Thus, his actual understanding of "medicine" is rather comical (from our perspective)...his view on it is that medicine is basically just another religious means of doing what he does: that is, defeat evil spirits with the judicious application of the appropriate ceremonies.

This is just an idea I had now, feel free to go "Duh, of course!" on me:

Instead of comparing medicine with what-looks-like-their-version-of, have you tried comparing it to things in their daily lives that are completely cause-effect? So, instead of explaining our healing method on par with their "healing" method, you could try telling them our medicine is like agriculture, or chopping wood, or even eating or drinking; actions you take to fight specific problems, with obvious result.

That way you can have a cause-effect analogy, and not a healing method one.

Also, have you ever thought of taking a simple, high-school lab microscope? I bet they would like to actually see our "spirits." :)

[Wolfman]

Caius,

First, I don't think that anyone here has asked stupid questions/suggestions, and I appreciate all perspectives and suggestions. They may not always be practical within this specific situation, but even explaining that helps provide more understanding of the culture.

In regards to the "cause-and-effect" thing, its difficult. It is not enough to tell them there is a cause-and-effect, I'd have to show it to them. But for many of them, in their own personal experiences, they've seen that at least sometimes when the Daba does his thing, people get better; but most of the the time when people go to the hospital, they die anyway (and after spending every cent the family has to do so).

From our 'logical' outside perspective, the reasons for this are obvious -- many of the medical conditions that the Daba does his ceremonies for simply disappear on their own (or a placebo effect may help, also). Whereas people often go the hospital only when it is too late, as a last-ditch option.

But from their perspective, how are you going to convince them to spend everything the family has for treatments that all evidence indicates don't work, in favor of traditional ceremonies that both their parents and religious leaders tell them work, and are also quite cheap? Their cause-and-effect experience, on a practical, daily level, is that Daba ceremonies have a higher rate of 'curing' people than hospitals do.

Again, change in this regard is necessarily going to be very slow, and is going to come about primarily by focusing on the younger generation...on educating them early, giving them fundamental knowledge such as this, so that when they get older and become decision makers, they'll consider this as a more serious, viable option.

In regards to the microscopes, again, that will work with the younger generation, and is something we hope to focus on in our educational projects. But for the older generation, it is doubtful that it would make much difference at all. Even if you can prove that bacteria exist...how do you "prove" that such incredibly tiny creatures can kill something as big as a human?

[Caius Textor]

Thanks for the reply. I see you go a long way to get your ideas clearly across, and that is a very fine quality. We do see eye to eye on this.
I was actually with an older post in mind (back on page 2 when you said something about compromise), I surely don´t think you are trying to convert us into Mosuonism. Or the other way around.

I do believe that if any culture is to be considered inferior or superior, a specific one can´t be taken as measuring unit. Either we have objective criteria for that or nothing at all.

ETA (Concerning the cause-effect thing) You have a pretty difficult job there. I think you know very well what you´re doing, specially given the carefull approach you take. Those are very good reasons not to do what I thought was simple and easy. I guess I would be pretty frustrated doing your job. So congratulations again!

[Wolfman]

A new topic:

During one of my visits, I also learned something else new. In all the literature I've read about the Mosuo, and all the discussions I've had with anthropologists who've studied the Mosuo, I've been uniformly told that the Mosuo have no marriage ceremonies. This is partly what makes them unique...there are other cultures in which marriage is not necessarily expected, but there is always some sort of marriage ceremony for people who want to get married.

During the visit in question, I had requested that I be given a proper Mosuo name; however, this is not a simple as it might seem. Names are very important, and have significant power within the Mosuo culture. The Daba priest must go through an elaborate ritual, and do various calculations that incorporate your date/time of birth, your mother's date/time of birth, and your grandmother's date/time of birth. In my case, it took the Daba about three hours, and tons of rituals and chanting, to bequeath on me the Mosuo name of Dashi Nombu (which was very cool).

However, when he finished this ceremony, he told me that he was heading off to another village to perform a marriage ceremony! This kinda' caught me off guard, and I asked what he was talking about; I told him I'd been told that there were no marriage ceremonies in the Mosuo culture/religion.

He replied that they were very rare, but they do happen. I had no chance to talk with him further at that time, so had to leave it at that. I later contacted an anthropologist friend, who's spent years with the Mosuo, who admitted she had never heard of such a thing. However, she did say that occasionally, there may be a situation where a woman wants to leave her home (or is kicked out of her home), and must start a new home on her own. Lacking the support of brother or other family in this new home, she will invite a man to come and actually live with her, and be her 'husband'. They will be the founders of this new family (one of the most famous books about the Mosuo, "Leaving Mother Lake", which I would highly recommend to everyone, tells the story of a young Mosuo girl who came from a family in just this situation; her mother had left home, and started a new home on her own).

Anyway, she was unaware of any specific rituals or ceremonies surrounding this, but said she suspected that it would be something of this nature that the Daba was referring to.

The next time I go there, I intend to follow up on this and clarify exactly what kind of ceremony this is, and when/how it is used.

[Wolfman]

I guess I would be pretty frustrated doing your job.
Oh, at times this work almost breaks my heart...it can be very disheartening and depressing, as well as being very rewarding. Consider the two following examples:

* In order to convince children and parents of the value of education, you need to instill some kind of 'dream' or 'vision' of the future. Not the way things are today, but the way things could be if they got more education. But the truth is, even if we're successful in convincing them to continue, probably 90% of those kids will end up not being accepted into high school or university, and will derive no quantifiable benefit from it. It is incredibly difficult to build up hopes and dreams, knowing that many people will not reach them; it is even more difficult comforting students who are bawling their eyes out because for the past 5 years they've put everything they have into being a good student, and they then discover that it wasn't good enough, and they won't be able to study any more.

Yet, without building that sense of hopes and dreams, it is virtually impossible to get any of the kids to pursue an education...and the 10% that are capable of getting through and achieving a higher education would be lost, also.

* At times, it can be incredibly gratifying to the ego to be perceived as the guy who is doing so much to "save" the Mosuo. I am a hero to many of these people, and enjoy a level of respect there that I've never experienced anywhere else. But, there is very much a balance to that which keeps me from getting too swelled a head.

Consider -- every time I go there, everyone knows me. A family who lost everything they had in a fire, and are entirely destitute, come to me crying, begging for money to rebuild their home. I have to say no. A family that has worked hard to build a small hotel, but doesn't have enough money to finish it (and will lose everything if they can't finish it), come to me to ask for money to complete the job. And I have to say no.

It often seems that, rather then telling people what we can do to help them, I end up spending most of my time telling people why I can't help them. I wish I could help every single one of them...but we don't have the resources to do that, not right now.

Even worse, I have to do a kind of ethical triage on such requests. Helping an individual family in a time of crisis is incredibly heart-warming...but it provides no long-term benefit to the Mosuo as a group. And when we have such limited resources, most of our focus must be primarily on using our funds in the way that provides the greatest benefit to the greatest number of people. Which, again, means that all too often I have to tell people in desperate need that yes, we have money, but no, we can't give it to you.

There are occasional spots of sunlight in this, of course. When we do complete a project that provides a benefit to the entire community, such as supporting a school, or building a training center, its an incredible rush to see how grateful the people are, and how much good is accomplished through it. And for the needs of individuals, while we often cannot assign our organization's funds to individuals, I do my best to make other people aware when such things happen, and occasionally I'll get a donor who will want to make a donation specifically to help that individual...in which case I'm more than happy to be the one delivering the good news.

This work is far harder, and far more emotionally wearing, than I'd ever anticipated when I began. The times I've been reduced almost to tears would be pretty much as numerous as the times I've felt an overwhelming sense of accomplishment and pride. I just keep telling myself that, as our organization grows and our resources increase, hopefully the number of times I have to say, "No" will decrease, and the times I can say, "Yes, we can help you" will increase.

[Hokulele]

Like most other people who have posted here, I would like to thank you for sharing this. I also have a question. Have you ever been concerned that the foundation may someday come to replace/conflict with the system of matriarchs that is currently in place? In other words, do you find people coming to you or your group for answers first?

[Wolfman]

Like most other people who have posted here, I would like to thank you for sharing this. I also have a question. Have you ever been concerned that the foundation may someday come to replace/conflict with the system of matriarchs that is currently in place? In other words, do you find people coming to you or your group for answers first?
Actually, this is one of the few areas in which I don't have any real concerns! First, the key leaders of our organization (the ones who worked with me to set it up, and who have the most influence) are almost all women, and two of them are matriarchs of their own families.

In addition, there is no such thing in Mosuo culture as just have "a meeting" to decide something; the process is considerably more elaborate than that (and this was something I had to learn the hard way). Essentially, at one meeting, we will have a discussion of different ideas, different possibilities. But if I try to get them to make an actual decision, choose a specific direction, I'll face nothing but frustration. Why? Because they must go home and discuss it with their families, and their communities, first. Just as property is communal, so are decisions.

At first I didn't understand what was happening, and was incredibly frustrated; but once I figured it out, and understood how the process worked, I came to embrace it, because it means that in a very real way, it is the Mosuo people as a whole who are guiding our committee. It isn't an isolated group in an ivory tower making pronouncements that affect everyone else; before my committee is actually ready to make a concrete decision, the issues have been discussed and debated by numerous people within the community, and you can be certain that the matriarchs have had their say. Its slow...but it works.

A note about our finances here, because this is also an issue in regards to matriarchal influence. Finances are the one area where I wield significant power...in fact, I have sole signing power over our bank account, and can withhold money from any project. In reality, if the majority of the committee is agreed on a particular project, I will not withhold money, even if I don't personally agree with that decision.

BUT -- and this is a big "BUT" -- this arrangement is absolutely necessary, and was a point of considerable deliberation and discussion when we first set up the organization. Because, in Mosuo culture, if a family member (or in particular the matriarch) requests something, it is virtually impossible to say no. So, just envisage a situation where some of the Mosuo committee members have the authority to disburse funds. Then their mother comes to them and tells them that she wants them to give her part of that money to pay for their childrens' education, or for vital medical care. It would be impossible for them to refuse, and the result would be that funds were routinely misappropriated for personal use.

By giving me sole power, they have deniability. When friends or family members make such requests, they can simply say, "I want to help, but it is not my decision, John has control over the money".

The good thing is, this avoids the issue of abuse of funds, corruption, etc. The bad thing is, it means that I'm the guy who always ends up being the one who has to say "No"...even though the reason for that decision is the policies and priorities that have been set by the committee.

[Hokulele]

Wow, the more I learn about the culture, the more interesting it sounds. Thanks for the answer. Another question, does each family tend to have a "representative" when it comes to meetings and community decisions? In other words, is someone designated to formally represent the family to the community at large?

[Wolfman]

Wow, the more I learn about the culture, the more interesting it sounds. Thanks for the answer. Another question, does each family tend to have a "representative" when it comes to meetings and community decisions? In other words, is someone designated to formally represent the family to the community at large?
Well, in regards to our committee, no, there's nothing so deliberate or organized. Like most Asian cultures, this is a culture in which 'harmony' is greatly prized, particularly in relationships. So when making decisions, people tend to talk around the issue a lot, and feel others out, until they get a sense of what the majority consensus is...and then they will make the decision that most people already agree with, and everyone else will agree.

Like I said, it can be a slow process. And this doesn't mean that there is never conflict or disagreement, but when that does happen, it tends to be quite over the top, fists-flying-while-cursing-vehemently types of disagreements (fortunately, I've been witness to few of these).

However, within a community, there may occasionally be town meetings in which everyone meets together to make important decisions. I've only been witness to this personally once (I told the story previously, about when money was stolen from me and they had a 'town meeting' to determine the thief's fate), and while there don't seem to be many 'officially designated' representatives, everyone seems to know and acknowledge who the key people are. The matriarchs will also have a significant say, and even if they don't speak up directly themselves, they may be directing someone else behind the scenes.

[Earthborn]

In my case, it took the Daba about three hours, and tons of rituals and chanting, to bequeath on me the Mosuo name of Dashi Nombu (which was very cool).Cool. Does that mean anything, or is it just a random arrangement of syllables? And if you think it is just a random arrangement of syllables, are you really really sure of that? We all know the stories about anthropologists being given names by locals that are actually profane. Who knows, maybe you said 'no' so many times that you are now officially known as 'cheap bastard' :)

[Wolfman]

Cool. Does that mean anything, or is it just a random arrangement of syllables? And if you think it is just a random arrangement of syllables, are you really really sure of that? We all know the stories about anthropologists being given names by locals that are actually profane. Who knows, maybe you said 'no' so many times that you are now officially known as 'cheap bastard' :)
Oh, my Mosuo name, "Dashi Nombu", most definitely has a meaning (the meaning of the name is of great importance to them), and in this case, its been confirmed by numerous independent sources that it does not mean anything like "cheap bastard" :cool:

Now, keep in mind, I can at best only hope to give an approximate translation...this is a name in the Mosuo language, but the meaning was explained in Chinese language, and I'm now using English to explain it. But, as a general explanation:

"Dashi" means unswerving...someone who, once they set their eyes on a particular goal, will pursue that goal doggedly until it is finished, no matter what obstacles they may face. "Nombu" is a little more complicated...it means some sort of mythical jewel that is spewed out of a dragon's mouth, and is supposed to be harder than diamond. But basically, it means a combination of "indestructible" and "valuable".

Given how important names are to the Mosuo, I'm sure that the Daba had some specific intent in choosing this name; when I tell it to other Mosuo, they all say it is a very good, strong name. I'm sure that he was thinking at least somewhat of what kind of name would be suitable for a leader of an organization like ours. It turns out that one of my Mosuo friends has exactly the same name, also, which kinda' makes us "brothers". And I'm now a kind of honorary family member of all Mosuo who bear the family name "Dashi" (since they put the family name first, and the given name last).

[Wolfman]

Here's a website (http://www.sos-sexisme.org/English/china.htm) which is a very good example of the kind of misinformation about the Mosuo that we're always seeking to address. As is unfortunately common with such things, it is on a website that deals with issues of women's rights and sexism, so it is understandable why they might prefer this kind of article; but what is worse is that it apparently comes from ABC.com. A few excerpts:
The Mosuo people perform their courtship dance, when women traditionally choose a male companion for the night or a year or a lifetime — and the men have no say in the matter.There aren't really "courtship dances"...the Mosuo simply enjoy dancing and singing, and will use it as an opportunity to pair up with someone else. But someone who does not seek a partner will still dance; and there are many other ways to choose a partner than in these dances.

But worse, is the statement that "the men have no say in the matter". That's just complete rubbish. First, the men can say, "No." Second, as I've described elsewhere, there are many ways for a man to take the initiative and indicate interest in a woman. The one way in which this is partly true is that only the women have private bedrooms (men sleep in communal areas), so while both sides have equal rights to say no, and both sides can initiate an encounter, only the woman can actually provide a place to meet...so she does retain greater control in that way.
It may sound bizarre to a Western visitor, but anthropologists say because the men have no power, control no land, and play subservient sexual roles, they have nothing to fight over — making this one of the most harmonious societies on the planet. The Mosuo people, estimated to number around 50,000, have no word for war, no murders, no rapes, no jails.THIS is the claim that really gets my dander up. What complete and utter bollocks. I know of no reputable anthropologists who make these claims -- only those amateurs who come in with their own agenda, spend a few days/weeks, and then leave with their predetermined conclusions still firmly in place.

It is true that men don't control the land...but they certainly have power, and an equal voice in family issues. In fact, the oldest male in the house usually enjoys the second position of power (second to the matriarch), and will be closely involved in all family decisions. That they play "subservient sexual roles" is an absolutely ridiculous claim, and plays more to the Amazonian Warrior myth than to anything reflecting reality.

And they have nothing to fight over? No words for war? I was only with the Mosuo for three days before they told me stories of past wars they've had...wars with other minorities, wars with the Tibetans, etc. In fact, they took me to a large valley that they say nobody will live in because they slaughtered more than 1000 Tibetan soldiers there in a battle some 500 years ago, and the ghosts still haunt it. And I've already discussed the rest (no murder, no rape, etc.) above.
During the height of Mao Tse-tung's communist rule in the 1960s and '70s, China's hard-liners forced the Mosuo people to abandon their practice of "tisese" and adopt the practice of monogamy. But when China relaxed its tight social controls during the post-Mao era, the Mosuo people reverted back to their traditional sexual practices.Partly true...partly not. The Chinese gov't most definitely made efforts to stop the practice of walking marriages, and declared it illegal for quite some time. And they outlawed the training of new Daba priests. But they did not make the matriarchal system illegal, and Mosuo women continued to hold considerable power throughout this period. Today, the laws regarding walking marriages and not training Daba priests have been struck down, and these are no longer major issues (although some of the damage from these past policies still exists).

But this article fails entirely to mention what I discussed previously, that there was also a patriarchal noble class among the Mosuo; and that it was the Chinese gov't's abolition of landlords, and the entire feudal system, that effectively destroyed the patriarchal aspect of the Mosuo, and left them an almost entirely matriarchal culture.

Other information in the article -- particularly that about the developing sex industry, and the dangers it poses -- is pretty accurate. But if you go to Google, and type in "Mosuo", the link to this article will appear in the very first page of results. Fortunately, the link to our organization appears before it; and the link to the Wikipedia article (which was also written by me, and links to our site) is number one. So, hopefully, we will gradually be able to deal with this misinformation, and help people get a more accurate understanding of the Mosuo culture.

[Darth Rotor]

Oh, and in regards to things like clothes, technology, etc....


Two thoughts on this fantastic discussion.

1. How ya gonna keep them on the farm once they've seen Shanghai? ;) The short answer is, you don't, or can't, and they will adapt in some way. Your efforts to help them keep as much control of the transformation is admirable, and is to me empowerment at its best.

2. About the fatalism, and "control of large spiritual forces," it seems their initial reaction bordered on "be careful of what you wish for, since you are sure to get it."

Some ideas seem to have universal application, though I imagine you are pleased to see that after some reservations, the leadership/councils chose to grab the bull by the balls horns.

If all you can achieve is a preservation of the language, stories, and cultural baseline, given that within a couple of generations the likelihood is that the modern/outside world will prevail over the indigenous culture, your effort will have been worth it. Anything beyond that is gravy. (The Atheist's link was a nice counterpoint to the "inside the box" story you have provided.)

I have some reservations about the social model scaling up, for the reasons that communes don't scale up all that well. Your treatment of that was well put.

Your hypothetical of the Han all fading away, and two centuries of Muosuo growth into the vacuum of course had to ignore . . . the rest of the world. I'm thinking the ambitious and industrious Viet Namese would steal a march on the Muosuo. :)

Best wishes.

DR

[Wolfman]

Two thoughts on this fantastic discussion.

1. How ya gonna keep them on the farm once they've seen Shanghai? ;) The short answer is, you don't, or can't, and they will adapt in some way. Your efforts to help them keep as much control of the transformation is admirable, and is to me empowerment at its best.
Thank you...very much!
2. About the fatalism, and "control of large spiritual forces," it seems their initial reaction bordered on "be careful of what you wish for, since you are sure to get it."
That would be a Western approximation, but really doesn't get into how much this view of life and 'fate' affects Asian philosophy in general, and Chinese in particular. The Mosuo believe very strongly that every aspect of their lives is mandated by the gods. They believe in free will -- you can reject what the gods have decided -- but doing so only brings pain and suffering. Thus, you do not take any action until you are sure that it is what the gods want you to do.

The problem is that the best indication of the gods' favor is to take an action, and have it be successful (which is what I did when I started this organization). But you can't take an action unless you're sure it has the god's favor. And then throw in the whole Tibetan Buddhist influence, and the idea that "desire" is a bad thing, one should simply accept the way things are, and abandon any desire for change...change will happen if it happens. Fortunately, now that it appears I have the gods' blessings on this idea, getting support for other ideas is much easier. Basically, the Mosuo suggest and debate an idea; bring it up in our committee; then ask for my opinion or advice. If I say I support it, that's basically as good as saying that they have the gods' blessings on it. So we can move ahead full steam (or the Mosuo approximation of full steam, which to me sometimes seems more like 1/4 steam).

I want to emphasize, yes, there are frustrations and problems...there are times that problems and delays that seem to me entirely avoidable instead put us weeks or months behind schedule. But I love the Mosuo very deeply, and have phenomenal respect for them. They come from an entirely different world than me, and the way they perceive that world, the way they make decisions about that world, will inevitably be completely different. But not only are things getting done, it is the Mosuo themselves who are getting it done. We're laying a foundation, and no matter how slow that process may be, it is a very solid foundation that I have every expectation will last for many years to come.
If all you can achieve is a preservation of the language, stories, and cultural baseline, given that within a couple of generations the likelihood is that the modern/outside world will prevail over the indigenous culture, your effort will have been worth it. Anything beyond that is gravy. (The Atheist's link was a nice counterpoint to the "inside the box" story you have provided.)
I agree completely; I will not even try to make predictions about what the situation of the Mosuo will be 50 or 100 or 200 years later...worst case scenario, they will have forgotten their language, will know little or nothing of their culture or history, and will be essentially indistinguishable from any other Chinese. But at some point, there are going to be some of them who are going to want to know about their ancestors' heritage, their history, their language, etc. And we will at least have the information there, preserved for those future generations.

At best -- and this is what I hope for -- the Mosuo will still retain their own language, preserved and encouraged by the development of a written form taught to them from primary school. They will still retain a strong cultural identity, and although they certainly will have changed/evolved somewhat, will still retain a unique 'Mosuo' character. They will be in charge of their own lives, controlling and benefiting from whatever businesses/industries they have developed. And they'll be spreading out across China, and to other parts of the world, introducing more people to their culture...and bringing new knowledge and experiences back to their home communities to share and benefit from.
Your hypothetical of the Han all fading away, and two centuries of Muosuo growth into the vacuum of course had to ignore . . . the rest of the world. I'm thinking the ambitious and industrious Viet Namese would steal a march on the Muosuo. :)
lol -- I thought of about half a million problems with that hypothetical right after I posted it, and had to force myself to refrain from going back and ruining it entirely with a whole slew of clarifications, conditional statements, and alternate possibilities.

[Roswell-Perseis]

They're rather convoluted questions. :) Perhaps what you're asking is what do the Mosuo really need? (Which Wolfman pretty much answered already.)

I was asking about what sociologists call socio-economic stratification. It is difficult for me to percieve if or to what degree that exists in non-Western societies. I was not asking about donations.

I think it's a bit odd to say "if not for the invention of medicine...". We do not even treat animals that way - depriving them of care. Or, we try not to deprive them of care. Furthermore, medicine exists. Why send the Mosuo back to the dark ages?
What are you talking about? I asked that had certain development not occurred would the Mosuo percieve themselves as needy (if that is how they percieve themselves now). I was not advocating taking things from them but trying to understand their perspective.

My question was appropriate for what I was asking and I have no idea what you are trying to say to me.

ETA: Are you inferring that I'm a biggot because I want to ask questions about a culture I don't understand?

[Wolfman]

R-P,

I think there's been a slight misunderstanding; Orph and I are old friends from another forum (several other forums, actually), and she's the one who first invited me to come here. During the course of this discussion, one member launched a major personal attack (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=85026) on me that threatened to derail this entire discussion. I made the mods aware of it, and at the same time sent a PM to her, requesting her support.

However, by the time she got my PM and came to check it out, the mods had already removed the offending posts, and returned the forum to normality. So all she saw was your most recent post, and even though it wasn't what I was referring to, she reacted to defend me.

That brief period of time -- and subsequent deletion of the relevant posts -- created a bit of discontinuity, and has resulted in some misunderstandings. I hope that this clears things up, and that we can all return to the normal, friendly, intelligent discussion we've all been enjoying so much.

[Orphia Nay]

R-P,

I think there's been a slight misunderstanding; Orph and I are old friends from another forum (several other forums, actually), and she's the one who first invited me to come here. During the course of this discussion, one member launched a major personal attack (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=85026) on me that threatened to derail this entire discussion. I made the mods aware of it, and at the same time sent a PM to her, requesting her support.

However, by the time she got my PM and came to check it out, the mods had already removed the offending posts, and returned the forum to normality. So all she saw was your most recent post, and even though it wasn't what I was referring to, she reacted to defend me.

That brief period of time -- and subsequent deletion of the relevant posts -- created a bit of discontinuity, and has resulted in some misunderstandings. I hope that this clears things up, and that we can all return to the normal, friendly, intelligent discussion we've all been enjoying so much.

Exactly. Thankyou Wolfman.

Roswell-Perseis, I'm very sorry I got my back up about your post, and did not digest your questions appropriately. :( It was a misunderstanding but also a failure to comprehend your questions on my behalf.

I didn't realise the insulting posts had been deleted, so when Wolfman told me a nutter had just posted in this thread, I was seeing red and looking for an argument. Again, I apologise.

In my very weak defence, which I abandon and apologise for, I did tell Wolfman I didn't think your post (or 'the nutter's post' as I thought) was as bad as he described. D'uh. :)

[Orphia Nay]

I've just nominated Wolfman for TLA, for his posts, and for the Mosuo Language Project. I may need to bribe Tricky to get the nomination accepted amongst the finalists. All support gladly accepted. :)

Time for a wild card entry.

Since Wolfman has been nominated three times already this month, and since this is The Language Award, I'd like to nominate Wolfman for:

A) His own use of language in this forum; and,

B) For his outstanding work creating a written language for the Mosuo people of South West China.

http://www.mosuoproject.org/language.htm

More about the Mosuo Language Project can be read in Wolfman's excellently written thread, "A world without marriage (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=72651)".

[JJM 777]

A world without marriage?

Sounds a bit like a world without personal property.

The winner takes it all, no rules apply.

[Darth Rotor]

Exactly. Thankyou Wolfman.

Roswell-Perseis, I'm very sorry I got my back up about your post, and did not digest your questions appropriately. :( It was a misunderstanding but also a failure to comprehend your questions on my behalf.

I didn't realise the insulting posts had been deleted, so when Wolfman told me a nutter had just posted in this thread, I was seeing red and looking for an argument. Again, I apologise.

In my very weak defence, which I abandon and apologise for, I did tell Wolfman I didn't think your post (or 'the nutter's post' as I thought) was as bad as he described. D'uh. :)

Rabid she wolf of the JREF, protector of her pack, and obviously Wolfman's paid shill. :D (I keed)

You go, girl!

DR

[Wolfman]

A world without marriage?

Sounds a bit like a world without personal property.

The winner takes it all, no rules apply.
I'm rather doubting that you've actually read most of what's written here, but I think that your comments encapsulate much of what is wrong with perceptions of marriage in most cultures. I am not saying that marriage in and of itself is wrong; only the way that it is perceived or abused.

First, the comment about "a world without personal property"...so you are equating "being married" with "owning property", and "not being married" with "not owning property"? That, in my opinion, is one of the biggest dangers in relationships...the perception of one's partner (whether married or not) as one's "property".

And "winner takes it all" also reflects a combative, adversarial attitude towards relationships...its not about equality or sharing, it is about power and "winning". Ironically, for all that you try to protest here, it is the traditional marriage system that has "winner takes all" rules...when people get divorced, there are frequently bitter battles over ownership of property, custody of children, etc. Children in particular seem to suffer as parents put their child in the middle, trying to get the child to support one of them, and reject the other.

In the Mosuo culture, at least in regards to relationships and parenthood, there is no "winner takes all" attitude. No fighting over division of property. No battles over custody of children. I'm not saying that this is a system that could work everywhere, and it certainly has its problems, as well...but I fail to see how your particular objection has anything at all to do with the issues being discussed. Perhaps if you could bother to read what has been written by myself and others, and to respond with reasoned arguments?

[Wolfman]

Rabid she wolf of the JREF, protector of her pack, and obviously Wolfman's paid shill. :D (I keed)

You go, girl!

DR
LOL -- Orph and I have a looooong history, and have teamed up more than a few times against trolls, particularly in forums somewhat less civilized than this one. Amazingly, I don't have to pay her a cent...just the occasional 'private performance' from a Chippendale's dancer, where she can explore the possibilities of a "walking marriage" for herself. In truth, I greatly admire and respect her for her willingness to explore alternate cultural paradigms.

[Roswell-Perseis]

Exactly. Thankyou Wolfman.

Roswell-Perseis, I'm very sorry I got my back up about your post, and did not digest your questions appropriately. :( It was a misunderstanding but also a failure to comprehend your questions on my behalf.

I didn't realise the insulting posts had been deleted, so when Wolfman told me a nutter had just posted in this thread, I was seeing red and looking for an argument. Again, I apologise.

In my very weak defence, which I abandon and apologise for, I did tell Wolfman I didn't think your post (or 'the nutter's post' as I thought) was as bad as he described. D'uh. :)
I appreciate your apology and I agree with Wolfman that we should just get back to the discussion at hand.

[quote=wolfman;2698088]. . .Thus, I have no doubt whatsoever that, if given the opportunity, many Mosuo will learn and adapt quite rapidly, and will be able to take back control over the changes that are taking place in their communities/culture, and control their own futures. I don't really see this as "poverty alleviation"...I see it more as empowerment.[/qoute]

I am glad that the efforts are to help the Mosuo take control of their affairs and try cope with the future. Poverty alleviation is a nice effort, but many times it seems to lack real long term planning.

I gather from your posts that the Han Chinese have been (hmmm how to put this) very ignorant of the Mosuo and in some (many?) cases quite cruel. Do the Mosuo have other neighbors or allies that can help them transition and cope with the changes they are making? Also, I believe you had mentioned there were laws banning Mosuo religious practices. Have the Mosuo made any progress in gaining rights or protections, or are efforts still focused on rescinding the restrictions?

I hope all is well for you and the Mosuo and that you are all succesful in perserving as much of their culture and history as is possible.

[JJM 777]

I'm rather doubting that you've actually read most of what's written here
I confess being guilty of this sin. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak -- and my time is limited.

...so you are equating "being married" with "owning property", and "not being married" with "not owning property"?
The allegory is that when the working day ends at 16 o'clock, many people think it's nice to have a place to go -- "home" -- full of your personal property, memories and photos, and all that silly stuff from the past, which belong to you and no one else.

Many people also think that it is nice that the home where you go after work is furnished with a spouse -- in the optimal case, a person whom you met in high school, and who represents to you even more memories than all the property that you own.

To make it even merrier, there might be some children in this home -- not just any brats, but indeed your own children, on behalf of whom you have made innumerable economical and other sacrifices since their infancy, childhood, teenage...

Property would be a misleading word. I would speak of "rights to your own life history". This is what makes you most happy or potentially hurts you most.

And "winner takes it all" also reflects a combative, adversarial attitude towards relationships... its not about equality or sharing, it is about power and "winning".
I would describe the life of modern unmarried singles as continuous unlimited competition -- in economical terms, like hard capitalism.

The traditional cultures where the parents choose a spouse for their kids, I would describe like socialism (in economical terms), the entire community cooperating in order to arrange enough for anyone, and not more than enough for anyone.

[Wolfman]

. . .Thus, I have no doubt whatsoever that, if given the opportunity, many Mosuo will learn and adapt quite rapidly, and will be able to take back control over the changes that are taking place in their communities/culture, and control their own futures. I don't really see this as "poverty alleviation"...I see it more as empowerment.

I am glad that the efforts are to help the Mosuo take control of their affairs and try cope with the future. Poverty alleviation is a nice effort, but many times it seems to lack real long term planning.

I gather from your posts that the Han Chinese have been (hmmm how to put this) very ignorant of the Mosuo and in some (many?) cases quite cruel. Do the Mosuo have other neighbors or allies that can help them transition and cope with the changes they are making? Also, I believe you had mentioned there were laws banning Mosuo religious practices. Have the Mosuo made any progress in gaining rights or protections, or are efforts still focused on rescinding the restrictions?

I hope all is well for you and the Mosuo and that you are all succesful in perserving as much of their culture and history as is possible.
This is a hard question to deal with, because it is politically sensitive, but I'll do my best to answer. To begin with, Communist doctrine teaches that society has different stages in evolution, Communism being the highest/best stage. Thus, all other stages are inferior, primitive, etc. So all education about minority groups in China tends to be very condescending, using terms such as "backwards", "primitive", "superstitious", etc. (Its useful to note that there are quite a few people in the West, both past and present, who tend to use the same labels). And the stated goal of the government was, until very recently, to get rid of those "primitive" cultures, and bring them all the benefits of Communism.

In the past, this led to significant abuses. The system of walking marriages was made illegal, and anyone caught in such a relationship could be imprisoned. Daba priests were outlawed from passing on their knowledge to younger people. Education was done exclusively in the Chinese language, and focused on hammering into them the idea that their culture was primitive and backwards.

The good news is that, today, this has really changed a lot. Walking marriages are now completely legal. Daba priests are allowed to train younger priests. And minority schools are actively encouraged to incorporate teaching about the local language and culture into their curriculum. In the latter case, this has proved to be a particular benefit to many minority groups in China, as children in younger minorities are no longer raised and educated to be ashamed of their own heritage. But for the Mosuo, since they have no written language, it is extremely difficult to develop any curriculum to teach that language...which is one of our main reasons for making the development of a written language so high a priority.

I can see a big shift in attitudes in China towards minorities. Among people who are over 35, and from a particular minority, there tends to be a sense of embarrassment or shame when they tell others they're from a particular minority; but among younger minority members, there is getting to be more and more of a sense of pride in their ethnic background. Responses from Han Chinese are changing, also. If I talk to Chinese who are over 35 about the Mosuo, their attitude is something like, "Well, that's nice, but they're backwards/primitive, they need to change"; whereas among younger Chinese, I'm finding great interest in learning more about the Mosuo, and of embracing their culture as fascinating and valuable.

Given past abuses, its not surprising that the Mosuo still tend to bear some grudges towards Han Chinese in general (and this is not helped by swarms of Chinese tourists who come and treat them like zoo exhibits, or who come just to have a "walking marriage" with a local girl). But they are also a very pragmatic people, and tend to take each person as an individual. In my own work with the Mosuo, I've brought both foreigners and Han Chinese to work with and help them on various projects; initially, certainly, the Mosuo tended to be more cautious or skeptical about the Chinese, than they did about the Westerners...but once those Chinese had demonstrated that they respected the Mosuo culture, and treated them as equals, there were no problems.

One further note...I believe I mentioned this earlier, but don't want to look back over everything to find the exact post! The Chinese gov't has a list of 56 "official" minorities in China. If you check that list, you will find that the Mosuo are not listed on it. They are, instead, lumped in with the Naxi, who are a completely different minority (different language, different religion, different culture); this is due to historic misunderstandings, and just plain lack of knowledge, when this list of minorities was first made. However, this is a critical issue, as the Chinese government does allocate money to each minority to help support their local development. But since the Mosuo are not an official minority, they do not receive such support...or they receive a much smaller portion, after most of it has been spent on the Naxi.

There have been some efforts to get the gov't to recognize the Mosuo as a separate minority, but thus far it has not happened...and is not likely to happen soon, either. The Mosuo are not the only group in China in this situation, there are a number of other groups that are also lobbying for recognition as a separate minority. From the gov't's point of view, the moment they recognize one such group, they're gonna' open a giant can of worms and have tons of similar claims. This (again, from their point of view) could cause "social instability", and a bureaucratic nightmare. So, the easiest way to deal with it is just say no to everybody.

[Wolfman]

The allegory is that when the working day ends at 16 o'clock, many people think it's nice to have a place to go -- "home" -- full of your personal property, memories and photos, and all that silly stuff from the past, which belong to you and no one else.

Many people also think that it is nice that the home where you go after work is furnished with a spouse -- in the optimal case, a person whom you met in high school, and who represents to you even more memories than all the property that you own.

To make it even merrier, there might be some children in this home -- not just any brats, but indeed your own children, on behalf of whom you have made innumerable economical and other sacrifices since their infancy, childhood, teenage...

Property would be a misleading word. I would speak of "rights to your own life history". This is what makes you most happy or potentially hurts you most.
I think that you are guilty of ethnocentrism here...of assuming that what you consider to be 'proper' or 'normal' is standard for everyone else. I in no way intend to state or imply that your own feelings on the subject are wrong. If you lived in the Mosuo culture, you would obviously not be fulfilled.

However, most of the Mosuo feel exactly the same way about your culture. Ask a Mosuo woman if she prefers walking marriages or 'real' marriages, and almost every one of them will say they prefer walking marriages. Why? Because if they get married, they have to deal with a whole new family that they don't know, and have no previous relationship with. Because they lose stability -- if the marriage doesn't work out, they could lose half their belongings, they could lose their child, etc. In their own culture, these things are non-issues.

I'd really encourage you to read more of what's been written here, first...much of what you're asking has already been addressed, and some of your questions seem to be based on misunderstandings that are entirely unnecessary.

In short -- if you're not going to take the time to read what's been written, and understand it, why should I take the time to answer questions that have already been addressed? I don't intend to take on too adversarial a tone here...but I can't take your inquiries as being terribly serious or sincere, if you can't take the time to understand what it is you are discussing.

[Hokulele]

Are all Daba priests male and how are they selected? I know you had mentioned earlier that Daba was penalized under the Communist system, but are the remaining priests allowed to selected and train potential new priests now?

[Wolfman]

Are all Daba priests male and how are they selected? I know you had mentioned earlier that Daba was penalized under the Communist system, but are the remaining priests allowed to selected and train potential new priests now?
Yes, Daba priests are exclusively male, and their teachings are usually passed on only to direct male descendants. As I've mentioned elsewhere in passing, the Daba priests are the only visible remainder of the patriarchal aspect of Mosuo culture. When the Mosuo had noble and peasant classes, the Daba priests were part of the nobility.

Thus, Daba priests do not practice walking marriages; they get married, and the woman they marry will come and live with them, and raise their children in the Daba's home. The reason for this is simple -- it is considered improper/unacceptable to train anyone outside of your own family in being a Daba priest, but in a walking marriage, his biological children would not actually be part of his family.

Because of the past gov't policies towards Daba priests, there is a major generation gap; almost all the existing priests are old men. They were not allowed to train their sons. And because the sons were not Daba priests, most of them just went along with the walking marriage tradition, and have no sons of their own living in their family. And even where there are grandchildren who could be taught, most of them simply aren't interested.

Consider how much work it takes. With no written language, a Mosuo priest must use rote memorization to remember everything...but if written down, there would be thousands upon thousands of pages of information. Not just chants and ceremonies, but family geneologies, oral traditions, historical (or mythical) stories, etc. Virtually the entire Mosuo history/culture/heritage is stored inside the Daba priests' heads.

There are currently efforts under way to convince some of the Daba priests to "liberalize" their beliefs, and offer training to non-family members. There's even been discussion of women being trained as Daba priests (again, those seeking to present this as an idealized culture with no discrimination and problems tend to overlook the fact that Mosuo women are denied the right to be Daba priests).

For me, its an area I've got really mixed feelings on. I myself am an atheist, and feel that certain aspects of the Daba faith really do damage and hold back the Mosuo (such as the aforementioned preference for Daba rituals over medical treatment for disease). On the other hand, the Daba priests are the keystone to the entire Mosuo culture. If we lose their knowledge, we lose the vast majority of Mosuo history and culture. And, again, I don't believe it should be up to outsiders to make decisions about religion, as well as any other area of Mosuo life.

At present, the biggest barrier to training new Daba priests is the priests themselves, and their unwillingness to break traditions that stretch back literally hundreds of years. There is a brilliant documentary that was done on this by a Chinese woman, called "Daba Sings", that covers these issues, and looks at one particular Daba priest over a period of about 10 years as he tries to train his sons (but is unsuccessful). The Daba religion focuses on ancestor worship, so honoring your ancestors is of extreme importance. As he says in the documentary, "I am the 14th generation of Daba priests in our family, passed from father to son for hundreds of years. If I fail to train my sons, then our family's tradition will die with me. But if I train someone outside of our family, I will shame my ancestors." From our perspective, it may seem irrational or closed-minded; but from their perspective, it is a very personal and difficult issue.

At present, a number of Mosuo are themselves seeking to at least make audio recordings of the Daba priests, and some of the priests have agreed to do this, so that if they do die without passing it on, at least some of their knowledge will be preserved. Developing a written language is, again, another crucial step in this regard.

[Caius Textor]

For me, its an area I've got really mixed feelings on. I myself am an atheist, and feel that certain aspects of the Daba faith really do damage and hold back the Mosuo (such as the aforementioned preference for Daba rituals over medical treatment for disease). On the other hand, the Daba priests are the keystone to the entire Mosuo culture. If we lose their knowledge, we lose the vast majority of Mosuo history and culture. And, again, I don't believe it should be up to outsiders to make decisions about religion, as well as any other area of Mosuo life.

Your understanding of this is not shared by most atheists or agnostics.

Some people become atheists out of anger towards christianity in particular. Something like "The church promoted the Crusades and the Inquisition, therefore all religion is crooked and should be banned".

I do agree that religion carries more harm than good. But I can´t blind myself and take the easy road of dismissing everything spawning from a religious source.

Priests of all kinds have a very important social role to play. The Mosuo case is emblematic, but the very same thing happened to us in Western Europe. We have a series of misconceptions that can be easily dismissed with so much as reading a decent history book.
The Middle Ages, unlike popular belief, wasn´t a terrible "dark age" where all human progress came to a halt. Granted, the Overlordship of the Church over all social life caused major damages. But it´s due to the efforts of Monks and Priests locked away in studies that a vast amount of knowledge survived those dark times. If it weren´t for the Monks we wouldn´t have any clue of Ancient philosophy, history, literature, science and so forth. Not only Greek and Roman. The Catholic priests also brought the knowledge of Arabs to Europe, discussing it and copying their works (including those concerning Greek knowledge that was lost in Europe for centuries due to wars).

Removing the priests from their cultural sorroundings is throwing away the baby along with the bath-water (damned local expression!)

[Piscivore]

Your understanding of this is not shared by most atheists or agnostics.

Some people become atheists out of anger towards christianity in particular. Something like "The church promoted the Crusades and the Inquisition, therefore all religion is crooked and should be banned".

I do agree that religion carries more harm than good. But I can´t blind myself and take the easy road of dismissing everything spawning from a religious source.

Priests of all kinds have a very important social role to play. The Mosuo case is emblematic, but the very same thing happened to us in Western Europe. We have a series of misconceptions that can be easily dismissed with so much as reading a decent history book.
The Middle Ages, unlike popular belief, wasn´t a terrible "dark age" where all human progress came to a halt. Granted, the Overlordship of the Church over all social life caused major damages. But it´s due to the efforts of Monks and Priests locked away in studies that a vast amount of knowledge survived those dark times. If it weren´t for the Monks we wouldn´t have any clue of Ancient philosophy, history, literature, science and so forth. Not only Greek and Roman. The Catholic priests also brought the knowledge of Arabs to Europe, discussing it and copying their works (including those concerning Greek knowledge that was lost in Europe for centuries due to wars).

Removing the priests from their cultural sorroundings is throwing away the baby along with the bath-water (damned local expression!)


Excellent posts, both of you.

[JJM 777]

Having glanced through the entire thread now, I would be inclined to believe that this form of life would not stand open competition against the more common ideal of one man and one woman taking care of their children.

Increasing exposure to the outer world will most probably take its toll soon, and an ever growing portion of the next generations will prefer the monogamous dream family to a walking one. As has been the case with nudism and many other similar ideologies and practices.

The western culture is a best-selling product, and I expect it to sell good to these people too in the near future. And I don't think I will have any regrets about that. Museums are for history, it is not necessary or practical to save everything.

[Hokulele]

Wolfman, before you waste too much time responding to JJM, read his posting history.

[Wolfman]

Wolfman, before you waste too much time responding to JJM, read his posting history.
lol -- he's already reached his conclusions, anyway...see no need for further response, thanks :-)

[Wolfman]

Well, some very good news! A Swiss tourism company, Hidden China (http://www.hiddenchina.net), has partnered with us to offer "culturally responsible" tours to visit the Mosuo. Instead of the 'normal' tour that people will take, which involves tour guides who understand little about the culture, and living in a tourist trap that has almost nothing to do with traditional Mosuo culture, we will provide tour guides from our own organization, and take people to live in real Mosuo villages, staying in local family homes (instead of in a hotel). We've already had two "trial" groups, and it went amazingly well!

There are also plans to organize mountain biking tours through the local mountains, to visit different villages; and horse treks through the mountains, perhaps even a horse trek from Lugu Lake to Tibet (it would be about a 10 day horse-back ride through the mountains).

Not only does this give tourists a more realistic understanding of the Mosuo and their culture, but a portion of the profits from each trip are donated to our organization. In addition to that, every group that we've had come so far has, after seeing what we are doing, and meeting the Mosuo themselves, offered to donate money to help us out.

Yet another small, but important step in our development :-)

[Hokulele]

I took a look at their brochure. Very impressive! If only I had the time . . .

[Wolfman]

Hey...wow...this thread is now featured in the Forum Spotlight! :D Truly, my thanks to everyone who's contributed to this topic!

[JamesM]

You mentioned that dogs are revered, Wolfman, and that most households have a large number. Are there many different breeds? What sort of role do they play - are they used for pets and for hunting?

[Wolfman]

James,

For the most part, a real hodge-podge of breeds, mostly mutts, but all medium to large-sized. I've never seen them used for hunting, but this is not an area that I've really examined much; however, based on my own perceptions, I'd say that dogs serve primarily as pets, and convenient pest-control.

[skeptifem]

Many people also think that it is nice that the home where you go after work is furnished with a spouse --


all i can think is 'EW'. FURNISHED with a spouse????



in the optimal case, a person whom you met in high school,

why is this optimal?



this thread was awesome outside of this guys posts.

[Roswell-Perseis]

Wolfman-

I wanted to say thanks for your excellent answers. Alot of people (myself included) are hopeful that the new generation of Chinese citizens will bring about a more democratic nation. Although I know there would be no ideal or quick path to equality, I think there are reasons to hope that things will progress and get better for everyone in China (and you are a part of that, how awesome!).

Also, would it be possible for the Mosuo and Noxi to have a more equitable distribution of any support provided by the government?

[Wolfman]

Also, would it be possible for the Mosuo and Noxi to have a more equitable distribution of any support provided by the government?
So long as the Naxi have 'control' over how the money is spent, not really.

I should expand on this a little...when I was talking about gov't support, I was referring to the national gov't. However, the provincial gov'ts in both Yunnan and Sichuan provinces (where the Mosuo live) have been significantly more proactive in providing support for the Mosuo. Not necessarily motivated by any altruistic sentiments, but rather than by the fact that minorities such as the Mosuo are one of the top tourist draws for the region.

Also, the region in which the Mosuo (and many of these other minorities) live is designated as an "autonomous region". This would be somewhat similar to reservations for native peoples in North America, but covering a much larger area, and encompassing many different minority groups. Within this autonomous region, local minorities do have more control over local laws, administration, etc., and operate semi-autonomously from the provincial governments. They don't have complete autonomy, but the level of autonomy is increasing steadily, with very positive impact on local minority cultures.

My attitude, and the attitude of the Mosuo I work with, is to avoid the all-too-common problem in such cases of developing an economic dependence on the government, or other outside agencies. Thus, we have specifically shied away from government involvement, and do by far the majority of our projects on our own, with no government assistance, even if such assistance is available.

Besides the danger of over-dependence, there's another reason for avoiding gov't involvement -- corruption. Local gov't officials in this region have a terrible reputation for corruption. If any donations go through their hands, you can be almost certain at least 50% of it will disappear into various peoples' pockets. If they are involved in a project, they will inevitably try to put their own people in charge, and again pocket as much of the money as possible.

As an example of this, about 5 years ago, a delegation of officials from the national Chinese gov't did a tour of the region, and made a donation of RMB 80,000 (about US$10,000) to one of the more outstanding local primary schools, to help them expand. However, this money was given to local gov't officials, who were then supposed to "administer" those funds, as appropriate, to the school. Five years later, the school has seen about RMB 5,000 of those funds...the rest have just disappeared. But they don't dare to report this to the national gov't, because it would just mean that local gov't officials would find numerous ways to punish them.

This is, sadly, a reality of life here in China; and rather than banging heads trying to combat such corruption, we decided to adopt a strategy of bypassing it altogether. The fact that we have significant support from the provincial gov't (who are not as corrupt, and with whom we have good connections), and that I have good connections with the national gov't in Beijing (including being the past speech trainer for the Mayor of Beijing during the bid for the 2008 Olympic Games, who has now been promoted to General Secretary of the Communist Party) means that, so long as we avoid direct involvement of local officials, we should be able to avoid most of these problems.

[Roswell-Perseis]

Wolfman-

Avoidance of corruption would certainly make the most sense. I am glad that the provincial governments have a slightly better track record.

[Tez]

Interesting - the Chewas (tribe in Malawi) still have very similar customs (though now somewhat confused by missionary influence). The mother's brother is the most important man in the child's life, the biological father has essentially no child rearing obligations and often does not live with the mother (and often has many children with different women). I dont know if they traditionally had marriage ceremonies (pre missionaries) but even today they are very loose marriages. This has not helped with HIV of course.

The other three main tribes in Malawi have what we would consider traditional unions.

Madonna adopted a Chewa "orphan" - everyone wondered how the biological father could be alive and he be an orphan. It was his mother and uncles that are dead....

[Wolfman]

Yes, there are, historically, different cultural groups that have had similar practices; but the Mosuo are the only one that I'm familiar with in which this is still a common cultural practice. Missionaries (as you pointed out) have been a major cause of the loss of such cultures, as has simple cultural imperialism. Or just the plain, anonymous forces of contact with other cultures over time. When Westerners first arrived in Fiji, they found a culture in which women were expected not only to have sex, but to bear a child, before they could get married (thus proving that they were capable of bearing children). Within their own culture, this worked well; but with outside contact, not only did visiting sailors treat them as little better than whores, but also were the cause of the rapid spread of STDs that decimated the local population. Women were also much more powerful. Today, little of that original culture remains.

I've had inquiries from Polynesian territories, from Fiji, from North American natives...all talking about how their cultures used to be similar to this, but today are not (or perhaps only have a few people still practicing it). This is one of the reasons this project is so important to me...at best, to prevent this culture from being destroyed the way so many others have; at worst, to at least be able to study and preserve it for future generations.

Consider, there are Native American cultures that had practices similar to this...but today, for those Native Americans who want to learn more about their history, heritage, etc., there is the incredible frustration of finding that most of it is lost forever, beyond reclamation, because no accurate records were made (or preserved).

I'm fully aware -- and so are the Mosuo in our committee -- that we may not succeed in actually "saving" the Mosuo culture; in fact, as I've mentioned elsewhere, it is pretty much inevitable that the culture is going to change to at least some degree. If we can save it, that's wonderful; if not, we can at least do whatever we can to record it for posterity. This isn't just the heritage of the Mosuo people...it is part of our human heritage, a piece of the puzzle about who we are, and how we behave. It pushes us to challenge our own cultural assumptions about what is "normal".

I would love it if I could find people who are from cultures that have (or have had) similar customs would get involved with us; they might be able to provide more insights from the perspectives of people to whom such behavior doesn't seem so 'strange' or 'different'.

[FSM]

Thank you for the interesting discussion of your work-- you describe it so well that it was almost like watching a movie. I am intensely interested now in this group of extraordinary people.

I am new to posting here, so I know, I KNOW I should probably just shut up for a while until I get the lay of the land better, but I am dying with curiosity--- please tell me if my question is rude, or too inappropriately personal and I will absolutely not mind at all... All right, here goes:

How have the women responded to you personally being in the community? Have any of them extended a 'walking marriage' to you? Since you were given a family name, would it be acceptable for the women to have a relationship with you? (Not that I think it would be something you would do in light of the STD discussion earlier...) But I am very curious about YOUR effect on the women there.

Again, feel free to ask me to shut up.

Thank you for your fantastic information and I wish you the best in the future.

[Wolfman]

Its a valid question, and in fact I'm surprised only that it hasn't been asked earlier. However, the answer is rather complicated, so bear with me!

First, a quick answer -- yes, there have certainly been a number of (sometimes very aggressive) expressions of interest in me from Mosuo women. In fact, it rather intimidated me at first, I had no idea how to react; I'm used to the "typical" Chinese woman who will be quite passive and quiet, and suddenly I had women who were very actively pursuing me.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, Lugu Lake has become popular as a "sex tourist" destination, with lots of outsiders (both Chinese and foreigners) going there simply with the intention of having sex with a Mosuo woman. This is something that most of the Mosuo themselves resent very deeply, and I wanted to be very cautious that I not be perceived as being like that. Therefore, for my first year, I very deliberately stayed away from any sexual relationships with local women. This helped cement my reputation as someone who was there with a sincere desire to help the Mosuo -- not just as an excuse to bed the local women.

However, things eventually reached a point that I had not anticipated; there were several Mosuo women with whom I really was quite close, and who had all expressed interest in me. I had consistently said no. But suddenly, the Mosuo leaders in my organization started asking me why this was...didn't I like Mosuo women? Did I think they were dirty? Unattractive? To them, it was incomprehensible that I would be A) available, B) attracted to a woman, and C) have that woman attracted to me...but do nothing about it. The only reason that they could see was that I didn't really like the Mosuo. Rather ironically, a decision that I had made in order to demonstrate a sincere respect for their culture ended up being interpreted as a dislike of them!

I've developed a very close and open relationship with a few of the key Mosuo leaders, so sat down and had a long talk with them about this. I explained my motivations, and my reasons. And I asked them how it would affect my reputation and image in the area if I did begin having 'walking marriages' with the local women.

The response from every person I talked with was the same...that I had done the right thing by abstaining when I first came. They said everyone had been watching me, and if I'd started having sex with local women right away, it could have damaged my reputation. But now, it was an established fact in everyone's minds that I was there out of a desire to help them, that I wasn't just some kind of sex tourist.

But while I had embraced Mosuo culture in many different ways -- getting a Mosuo name, beginning to learn the language, participating in major festivals, etc. -- the fact that I had apparently rejected so many Mosuo women remained something of a barrier; and if I wanted to really be accepted by the Mosuo, I needed to be seen as participating in all aspects of the Mosuo culture.

Now, when I explain this, it seems almost ludicrous...a single, heterosexual male, with numerous attractive women actively chasing him, who has to be pushed into actually agreeing to do so. However, the answer is that yes, I have begun a "walking marriage" relationship with one Mosuo woman. It seems really bizarre from an outside perspective...when I went to visit my "Mosuo family", I would stay in their home. But when night came, I would "sneak" out the door, go to my partner's home, and climb in her window, to spend the night with her. The first time I did this, I had no idea what to do, and was afraid of embarrassing myself and everyone else; but one of my 'brothers' appeared at just the right time, congratulated me on finally becoming a "real Mosuo", and then showed me how to get out of the house, and how to get into the other house. (By the way, the woman in question has since moved to the main Lugu Lake tourist area, and has her own small apartment, so I no longer need to sneak over at night; I can just live with her when I'm there).

The first time, I was still afraid that there would be something of a negative perception of my actions, but this proved not to be the case. As my friends had told me, this basically cemented my position within the community, I was now "one of them".

I mentioned earlier that the Mosuo engage in "serial monogamy"; in my relationship with this Mosuo woman, neither of us will have other lovers (even though we really don't see each other very often). So long as we're happy with the relationship, it continues. If one (or both) of us decides it is no longer working, for any reason, we will end it. There are no expectations beyond that.

In truth, I've found this a wonderful relationship. She is a very intelligent and active person, a delight to be with. And whereas most of the time in China I have to worry that a woman who shows interest in me may just be after my money, in this case that isn't a worry at all -- since in the Mosuo culture, our property would always be kept separate, and she would never have any claim on it.

The big problem I have in this regard is not with the Mosuo, but with outsiders, when I explain this. In particular, it is almost inevitable that some women will start accusing me of simply "living a man's ultimate dream", sex without any responsibility, and of taking advantage of local women's naivety just to fulfill my own physical needs/drives. Or men who, upon hearing this, declare that they want to go there and get a Mosuo girlfriend too (without making any real investment in time or energy in the Mosuo community first).

The Mosuo perspective on relationships is radically different from that of most other cultures; whatever I do, it is inevitable that it will be viewed negatively by one side or the other. If I try to maintain a Western judeo-Christian form of morality, the Mosuo will see me as rejecting their culture. If I embrace the Mosuo culture, with all its practices, then I am perceived by many outsiders as exploiting them, of taking advantage of local women.

So, to clarify my own position -- I have engaged in only one "walking marriage", which now is a little over one year old. My partner is far from 'naive', in fact she's a very intelligent woman, who actively hunted me for more than a year (and if I'd resisted much longer, she may well have abducted me). We have a great relationship with each other, which is recognized and respected by the rest of the Mosuo community, including her family. I waited more than a year before getting into such a relationship, and did so only at the urging of close Mosuo friends.

Whatever judgments others may have, I am confident that I've done the right thing.

[Wolfman]

Oh, one more quick comment...on how other 'foreigners' would be viewed by the Mosuo. If you go to the main tourist area at Lugu Lake, you will in fact find quite a number of young girls who will chase after you. However, quite a few of these will turn out to expect financial "compensation" for such a rendezvous; others will be girls from very poor families who are simply looking for a rich husband to take them away (and, in this case, are most definitely looking for marriage, not for a walking marriage relationship).

"Walking marriages" should not be interpreted as "one night stands". While that does happen, most walking marriages will last longer than that, and are based on a real mutual attraction. If you're just there as a tourist for a few days, such a relationship is out of the question -- you'll be gone, and they'll never see you again. So a "traditional" Mosuo woman would not engage in such a relationship with you.

Historically, the Mosuo had fairly strong taboos against relationships with outsiders; discovery of such a relationship could lead to severe punishments. These days, such proscriptions have pretty much disappeared. And there is definitely a fascination for foreigners, particularly those with blond hair. Not so much for the foreigners themselves, but rather the desire of many Mosuo women to have a blond-haired baby (despite the fact that I've heard numerous Mosuo women express this particular fantasy, I have yet to see even one actual example).

There are, in fact, stronger biases towards having Chinese lovers than having foreign lovers. The Mosuo experience has been the foreigners treat them and their culture with fascination and respect; whereas too many Chinese treat them as backward/primitive, and view them more as animals in a zoo than as equals.

Of course, thus far I've been talking primarily about Mosuo women and foreign men; what about Mosuo men? Within Mosuo communities, it is fairly rare for them to have relationships with non-Mosuo women (although it does happen); but if they leave to work in larger cities, it is very common for them to marry non-Mosuo women. More often than not, this is done for 'citizenship' purposes; in China, you are not allowed to live anywhere you want, you have a card (called a "hukou") that designates the region you live in, and you are only allowed to live/work there. You can travel freely...but if you want to live in another city, or get work there, you have to get a "hu kou" for that city. And the easiest way to do that is to marry someone who already lives there.

[FSM]

Thank you Wolf, for being so open and honest. I see the decision you made as one that was carefully considered and fairly done, taking into account all of the parties involved. It says a lot about you as a person that you were accepted so completely into this group of interesting people.

Thank you for sharing so much of yourself, not just about this specific issue (which is exceedingly personal) but also so much of your passion and dedication to this cause.

Thank you again, and all the best.

[ellindsey]

Wolf - I have no questions, just wanted to thank you for sharing all this. I really find it interesting how the Mosuo have made their system work. It would be a quite a shame for them to suffer as a result of increased contact with outsiders - either due to pressure to adopt a more conventional marriage system, STDs, or exploitation. Good of you for helping them out.

[Hellkat9940]

I too have no questions and would also like to thank you for sharing your experiences and find it all quite interesting.

[Corpse Cruncher]

:D Please ignore this message. I'm testing that I can post, as I had a problem earlier and that Darat's watching.

[ShowMe]

Historically, the Mosuo had fairly strong taboos against relationships with outsiders; discovery of such a relationship could lead to severe punishments. These days, such proscriptions have pretty much disappeared.

You've mentioned several different areas for this culture. Forgive my ignorance of geography, but are these close together? Is there much interaction between different "villages" of this culture, or are they close enough that trying to describe them in terms of different towns or villages isn't practical?

Are relationships with outsiders accepted, or would such and "outsider" have to go through some of the same rituals you did (ie, getting your name)?

[Wolfman]

You've mentioned several different areas for this culture. Forgive my ignorance of geography, but are these close together? Is there much interaction between different "villages" of this culture, or are they close enough that trying to describe them in terms of different towns or villages isn't practical?
Its not easy to describe; the Mosuo mostly live in small villages scattered throughout the mountains. This area spans two different provinces (Sichuan and Yunnan), and has at least five other minorities living within the same geographical area. So actually, there's a fair deal of variation between different Mosuo communities. For example, Mosuo on the Yunnan side of the border will generally identify themselves with Tibetans (who conquered them many hundreds of years ago), whereas Mosuo on the Sichuan side will generally identify themselves with Mongolians (who conquered them at some other point in history). There are different dialects of the language, depending on where you live. Daba priests in different areas have developed different ceremonies and rituals. In some cases, they may also have adopted some of the practices of other minority groups (and other minorities may adopt some of the Mosuo practices).

Trying to define what is "real Mosuo" is pretty much impossible; you focus instead on those traits that seem to be held in common by the majority of Mosuo.

Although villages are relatively "close" together geographically (ie within a few kilometers of each other), you are talking about the Himalayas here...most of the more remote villages have no electricity, no roads, etc. Traveling to the closest village means trekking up and down mountainsides, a trip of at least several hours both ways. There are many people in these more remote villages who've never traveled more than 10 or 20 km from their home.
Are relationships with outsiders accepted, or would such and "outsider" have to go through some of the same rituals you did (ie, getting your name)?In the past, that would have been more true; these days, no. The only real 'requirement' would be the potential for a relationship that lasts more than one night. While one-night stands are not considered 'wrong' in Mosuo culture, and certainly do happen, most Mosuo would be looking for more 'serious' relationships. So, if you are living there (or will be traveling there often, as is my case), or if they are living in another city and meet someone there, then there would really not be much to stop them from forming a relationship. Again, for the Mosuo, the rule is fairly simple -- if you like each other, why not be together? Efforts to learn their language and culture, or to get a Mosuo name, would certainly be appreciated, but far from a 'requirement'.

P.S. -- I welcome any and all questions, but please, no more "this may be a stupid question" or "this may sound ignorant" or things like that. The simple fact of your interest in this topic, and in the Mosuo, is more than enough. I ask only that you take the time to read what's already been written (as most of you have done). The only way that I was able to learn about the Mosuo was to ask endless questions, many of which I thought may sound stupid or naive, but without which I could not have learned. The purpose of this thread is to help people know more about the Mosuo, and better understand them. So...please feel free to ask any questions whatsoever, and do not feel embarrassed or apologetic about it. As the question about my relationships with Mosuo women should demonstrate, I'll do my best to answer any questions, regardless of how personal or embarrassing they may be for me ;)

[Hokulele]

What is their sense of humor like? Can you share a Mosuo joke?

[Wolfman]

Sorry...I can't really answer that question. Haven't really heard any Mosuo jokes that I can recall.

Will have to add that to my list for future visits...ask them about comedy, jokes, etc.

[BlackCat]

Yet Mosuo men are very 'masculine'...kinda' like the cowboys of the Himalayas. When I first when there, I asked some of them how they felt about women being in charge of the house, money, decisions, etc. Most men replied that they had no problem with it...that men had muscles, so men's work was that work which required strength and endurance. Women had brains, so women's work was that work which required thinking and calculation.

I have a question. In learning about sociology, I discovered that in many societies (most of which are patriarchal), when they have such divisions of labor like men's work and women's work, the men "look down" on the women's work, regardless of what it is. (Basically, I'm thinking of how men in the US in the '50s thought of housework.) Meaning, in one culture, if looking after livestock is women's work, it will be looked down on in that culture, whereas in another culture, if that happens to be men's work, it will be seen as important and masculine.

So, I'm curious, in Mosuo culture, does either gender look down on the other's work?

[ShowMe]

Do they have any type of exports? If the average eyars income is about $100, how do they earn the money?

[Wolfman]

I have a question. In learning about sociology, I discovered that in many societies (most of which are patriarchal), when they have such divisions of labor like men's work and women's work, the men "look down" on the women's work, regardless of what it is. (Basically, I'm thinking of how men in the US in the '50s thought of housework.) Meaning, in one culture, if looking after livestock is women's work, it will be looked down on in that culture, whereas in another culture, if that happens to be men's work, it will be seen as important and masculine.

So, I'm curious, in Mosuo culture, does either gender look down on the other's work?
Hmmmm...another question that I haven't really examined in detail, I'll try to get more info on that next time I go. My own perception would be not so much that one gender 'looks down on' the other gender's work; but rather that it is simply felt that one gender does particular jobs well. To draw a parallel...if you had a big, strong, muscular man, and a small, weak man, the former would be the rather obvious choice for a job like being a blacksmith. However, that would not necessarily mean that one looked down on the other.

But as I think about it, for example, women traditionally do the weaving of fabrics, clothing, etc. I've never seen a man do this, and I don't know what the reaction would be of Mosuo if they saw a man doing it. Would they simply feel that it was funny, but was his choice? Would they look down on him for doing a 'woman's job'? Will have to ask more questions about this next time I go.
Do they have any type of exports? If the average eyars income is about $100, how do they earn the money?
The Mosuo only have two 'exports' that I'm aware of. The first is their hand-woven materials (that provide a very limited income from a few tourist areas); the second is the people themselves (who go to other cities to get jobs). There are other possibilities for export (such as a local form of red rice that they grow which is quite tasty), but not much has been done to exploit or build on this yet.

By far the majority of income for the Mosuo is derived from tourism; but that benefits (or hurts, depending on your perspective) only those Mosuo who live in tourist areas.

For the majority of Mosuo, they live in a largely cashless society, based more on trade and barter. The majority of their daily needs for subsistence -- food, clothing, etc. -- are secured in this manner. What money they do make will come from selling excess produce in markets, or perhaps selling hand-made clothing, etc. But its a very limited income.

"Why do the Mosuo need money then?" Its a common question, and a good one. From a basic subsistence point of view, to just have enough food, housing, clothing, etc., most of them are able to do so quite well without any reliance on cash. However, what happens when someone in your family is seriously injured, or becomes ill, and you have to go to the hospital? Then you have to pay the cost of transportation to/from the hospital; you have to pay all the medical costs, etc. Or what about when your children want to go to school? Most of the basic costs are covered by the government, but if your children get into junior or senior high school, or university, the odds are very far that the school will be too far away to walk there. Instead, your children will have to board at the school, and you have to pay all the costs for that -- travel, accommodation, food, etc.

Yes, the Mosuo can continue to 'subsist' at the level they are currently at (and have been living at for hundreds of years). But they cannot grow, they cannot develop. Again, there are those Mosuo who have no desire to change, who like things just the way they are; and I respect that. But there are many other Mosuo (from my experience, they would compose the majority) who want at least some degree of change and growth. There's lots of debate and disagreement about how much change, and what kind of change...but they do want it.

More importantly, as I've discussed elsewhere, they want to be able to control the changes taking place within their society, rather than having it controlled by outsiders. And in order to do that, they need education, resources, etc....all things which require money.

[tracer]

Just as a typical western man may see things like knitting and sewing as "women's work", and not suitable for a man, so many Mosuo men have the same view of things like mathematics. It's not "man's work" to just sit and write on paper, and think about things; a "real man" is out cutting logs, building houses, riding horses, etc.

This reminds me of something I heard about the European Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries.

Apparently, during the Enlightenment, a man would show how erudite and sophisticated he was by NOT engaging in traditional "masculine" things. He would wear poofy wigs and frilly lace, effectively becoming as effeminate as possible, and engage in debates and research and other "thinking" activities as opposed to anything physically strenuous.

I find it an interesting parallel that the Mosuo men also lump "thinking" activities together with other girly stuff, just like the Enlightenment men did -- the only difference being, the Enlightenment men actually pursued the girly stuff as a means of setting themselves apart.

[Wolfman]

Well, my main point in offering this information was the role that conditioning and education plays in gender roles. I know many people who, to this day, will try to claim that men are 'naturally better' at some things while women are 'naturally better' at others. In more traditional Christian circles, I've seen this take the form of arguments that men are physiologically better suited to handle leadership and stress, and their minds are better suited for mathematics, science, etc. This type of argument is usually used to support a 'traditional' division of labor and responsibility between men and women.

Of course, such arguments are essentially self-fulfilling prophecies; you believe men are better at certain things, women better at others, so you train them accordingly...and lo and behold, that's how it works out!

This is one of the reasons I believe it is so valuable to study other cultures, because we are able to observe people who are born and raised in dramatically different situations. I'm not arguing that one culture is superior to another; but rather that, taking the different pieces offered by different cultures, we are able to put together a larger picture that offers a broader perspective than we could ever hope to achieve purely within the confines of our own culture.

[Orphia Nay]

I'm really enjoying people's questions, as they give Wolfman the opportunity to elaborate so well.

I've been wondering about the Mosuo's cuisine and whether there are any issues in their nutrition.

Do they grow rice? What are their staples? Do they need money to buy staples? I think I remember you saying they eat pork either regularly, or on special occasions, which they raise themselves.

I haven't seen any pictures of any obese Mosuo people, but I was wondering if there are any cases of that, or perhaps malnutrition.

Is there a typical traditional Mosuo dish?

[Wolfman]

The Mosuo diet is very similar to the Tibetan diet (if you're familiar with that). It is quite heavy on meat (and since there's usually no refrigeration, it is heavily salted for preservation) and potatoes. Traditionally, potatoes were the staple food, not rice, but that is changing somewhat with the Chinese cultural influence. Also lots of veggies, and lots of dairy.

Pretty much all the food they need can be grown locally, and if they manage to escape the ravages of disease, they are generally quite healthy. They are not at all the typical picture of the small, thin Asian...they are generally quite tall, with hefty builds. Obesity would not be a problem, from what I've seen...although i suspect that as they develop and physical labor becomes less necessary (and they start spending more time watching TV or playing computer games) that this will become more of a problem.

The food that would be considered as most stereotypically Mosuo would be the "Zhu biao rou", which is large slabs of pork (like 40 or 50 kg) that are preserved in such a manner that it can be kept for seven years or longer without refrigeration.

Then there's the yak's butter tea, which is a Tibetan drink...one of the things that is very much an acquired taste, and I'm afraid I've never acquired it.

My favorite local dish would be a dish called "gan bian tu dou si", which is shredded potatoes that are fried in a way that makes a kind of pancake...pretty much like a large hashbrown.

With a diet that is heavy on meat and potatoes, and also has a lot of dairy, the Mosuo diet is much more similar to a Western diet than it would be to the typical Chinese diet.

[JJM 777]

this thread was awesome outside of this guys posts.
It wasn't my posts that they dropped when making this a Featured Thread.

Lugu Lake has become popular as a "sex tourist" destination, with lots of outsiders
Why should the local women be interested in going to bed with a tourist, and then another one, and then again another one? Isn't there money involved? If there is, then it is standard prostitution, in no way different from what happens elsewhere in the world.

I think prostitution is illegal in China, but I certainly never imagined that the police would try to enforce the law, any more than anti-piracy or human rights laws.

different cultural groups that have had similar practices
Any average Hollywood movie features a man and a woman having an intimate relationship as long as they choose, and then ending it whenever they feel so. I fail to see a fundamental difference between modern western love affairs and a walking marriage. Apart from the fact that woman is the one who picks, but you cannot get a woman in the west either if she is not interested. In any case it takes two persons interested in each other, no matter what rituals are used to reveal the fact that two persons are interested in each other.

Then the fact that the two lovers will not live in the same house. This seems to be the least attractive part of the practice from a western point of view, since most people find it to be one of the greatest joys of life to live together with your partner and watch closely your kids grow day by day. Few sociologists in the world would recommend the father to stay much away from home. Quite the opposite, and the reasons are said to be numerous.

[Wolfman]

Why should the local women be interested in going to bed with a tourist, and then another one, and then again another one? Isn't there money involved? If there is, then it is standard prostitution, in no way different from what happens elsewhere in the world.

I think prostitution is illegal in China, but I certainly never imagined that the police would try to enforce the law, any more than anti-piracy or human rights laws.
If you'd bother reading what has already been written here, you'll find I've addressed this issue.
Any average Hollywood movie features a man and a woman having an intimate relationship as long as they choose, and then ending it whenever they feel so. I fail to see a fundamental difference between modern western love affairs and a walking marriage. Apart from the fact that woman is the one who picks, but you cannot get a woman in the west either if she is not interested. In any case it takes two persons interested in each other, no matter what rituals are used to reveal the fact that two persons are interested in each other.Again, this issue has been covered; there is a very fundamental difference in that in walking marriages, there is no sharing of property, or of children. So, unlike the western relationships you refer to, there is no fighting over division of property, no fighting for custody of children, etc. A rather significant difference, I'd think...one that's been discussed any number of times in this thread...and one that you somehow managed to miss out on completely.
Then the fact that the two lovers will not live in the same house. This seems to be the least attractive part of the practice from a western point of view, since most people find it to be one of the greatest joys of life to live together with your partner and watch closely your kids grow day by day. Few sociologists in the world would recommend the father to stay much away from home. Quite the opposite, and the reasons are said to be numerous.I love it when people make entirely unsupported statements of fact, and expect them to be accepted without question

Once again, repeating an all-too-familiar mantra, if you had read/comprehended what has actually been written here, you would realize that there is nothing about the children having no father figure. Quite the opposite...instead of having just one, they have multiple father figures. Every uncle, every adult male in their family shares in the parenting duties.

And regarding sociologists, pretty well every sociologist and anthropologist that I know who have studied Mosuo families have found them to be extremely stable, and very supportive. Mosuo children never face the trauma of parents fighting for custody. Mosuo children virtually never become orphans...instead of just two parents who care for them, they have an entire extended family who share the parenting duties and responsibilities.

Honestly, it is hard for me to respond to you with much other than disdain. Not because you disagree with me; but because you insist on popping in with comparisons that are not at all accurate, and conclusions that are entirely unsupported, all while raising issues that have already been thoroughly discussed and explained elsewhere in this thread. Instead, you just kinda' cherry-pick isolated factoids, find them different from your own world view, and dismiss them therefore as being 'wrong'.

You are not personally attracted to the Mosuo culture. That's fine. I get it. I'm not expecting to convert anyone to being Mosuo, in fact I've stated a number of times (if you'd bother to read what's been written) that I do not believe that the Mosuo culture could be transposed into Western culture. Without the large extended family structure that the Mosuo have, it would not work. I'm not trying to convince anyone that the Mosuo way is better; only to introduce an alternate world-view, a different way of viewing relationships, families, etc.

I'll give you a hint which I doubt will make much difference, but I'll say it anyway. What you consider normal does not define what is normal for all humans. What you consider stable, or desirable, or healthy, does not define what all of humanity considers stable, or desirable, or healthy. There are, in fact, huge numbers of human beings upon this planet who live lives very, very different than the one you seem to keep trying to hold up as the 'standard' of normalcy and propriety; and not only are they successful at doing so, but they are quite happy.

If you can't be bothered to read the full thread, and actually make some effort to comprehend and understand what is being discussed, rather than just pop in with these brief revelations on your own limited world view, then I'd rather you just stay away. There's no reason on earth why I should waste time answering your questions or responding to your comments when you can't be bothered to understand what it is you're commenting on.

Most Mosuo would not be happy living the life that you hold up as 'normal' or 'proper'; and you would not be happy living the life that the Mosuo live. That's fine...I have no problem at all with that. This is, in fact, what makes our world such a fascinating place, that there can be so many different systems that all work, within their own context. How sad that you are apparently entirely incapable of understanding or appreciating that.

[Normal Dude]

Wolfman,

An absolutely fascinating thread, culture, and subject. I just spent 2.5 hours going through it in detail. I wish I could help in some way, but with no applicable qualifications or money to spare, all I can sat is good luck.

Chris

[JJM 777]

If I understood correctly, this walking marriage is not only "permissible" among the Mosuo people, but indeed "obligatory". Other options not permitted for members of the Mosuo community.

In comparison, Guinea Bissau has a small and diminishing community where "women choose husbands, who are compelled to marry them".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_Bissau#Matriarchy

Words like "compelled" and "obligatory" and "the only accepted option" should be a red flag to any critically thinking person. Not least because critical thinking is usually the first thing banned when something is banned.

[Hawk one]

I'll save Wolfman the trouble and once again suggest you actually read the entire thread. Especially Wolf's last post.

Another aspect of critical thinking is to reckognise if someone is looking for an honest debate. Right now, it's pretty obvious you aren't.

[Wolfman]

If I understood correctly, this walking marriage is not only "permissible" among the Mosuo people, but indeed "obligatory". Other options not permitted for members of the Mosuo community.

In comparison, Guinea Bissau has a small and diminishing community where "women choose husbands, who are compelled to marry them".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_Bissau#Matriarchy

Words like "compelled" and "obligatory" and "the only accepted option" should be a red flag to any critically thinking person. Not least because critical thinking is usually the first thing banned when something is banned.

I'll save Wolfman the trouble and once again suggest you actually read the entire thread. Especially Wolf's last post.

Another aspect of critical thinking is to reckognise if someone is looking for an honest debate. Right now, it's pretty obvious you aren't.
Thanks, Hawk...but I'll respond, very briefly, anyway.

JJM, I honestly haven't got the slightest clue what thread you've been reading, because it obviously isn't this one. I have, in fact, stated in quite a number of posts that walking marriages are not "compelled" or "obligatory". The Mosuo have complete freedom to have a normal 'marriage', if that's what they want to do...and some Mosuo do in fact choose that option, particularly if they leave home. However, most of them prefer the walking marriage system.

I agree with Hawk. Time after time you demonstrate no interest in actually reading or trying to understand what's been written. You reach "conclusions" (like the one in this post) that are completely the opposite of what has been stated. You try to impose your view of what is "correct" or desirable on all people as the standard of what is "normal" or "proper".

This is, absolutely, the last time I'm responding to you. If you want to make more posts, feel free to waste your time doing so; but I'm not going to waste any more time or energy on you.

[Wolfman]

Wolfman,

An absolutely fascinating thread, culture, and subject. I just spent 2.5 hours going through it in detail. I wish I could help in some way, but with no applicable qualifications or money to spare, all I can sat is good luck.

Chris
In contrast to my previous post...thank you very much, Norm, for taking the time to read all of it (I know there's a lot here by this time). I don't really ask or expect people to "help" (although if they can, that's great). This information is put here simply for people to learn about a unique culture.

My main goal here is simple; to inform people about the Mosuo. It is dead certain that if nobody knows about the Mosuo, then nobody will get involved to help. On the other hand, if ten thousand people know about the Mosuo, and only one in a thousand are willing/able to help, that still means ten more people to help us out. I inform you guys here about the Mosuo; then you share it with some friends you think might be interested. They share it with their friends. And, somewhere down the line, it reaches the attention of someone who wants to get involved.

So, despite what you said, you can help. Send emails to friends that you think might be interested, referring them to our website at www.mosuoproject.org (http://www.mosuoproject.org). When you're out for drinks with friends, and trying to think of some new, interesting topic to discuss, tell them about the Mosuo (in my experience, the moment I start talking about the Mosuo, I've instantly got a captive audience who are almost always fascinated, and it leads to great discussions). It puts you at the center of attention as an interesting guy; and it puts the Mosuo into the awareness of a few more people.

[ellindsey]

This continues to be an educational thread.

First I learned about the Mosou. Then I learned how to use this board's Ignore List feature.

[Wolfman]

[humorous digression]
On the topic of using this as a conversation-starter when you're out with friends...I'll share a piece of information which perhaps is not entirely 'politically correct', but which I'm sure will nevertheless be appreciated by a number of the guys here.

That is, I've found that discussing the Mosuo is a fantastic strategy to use on a first date, or with a woman that you've just met.

Consider this: you meet a woman, you're getting along fairly well, then at some point you say, "You know, I really like you, but I'm not into commitment or marriage, or anything like that. I think that while we like each other, of course we should stay together; but if one or both of us change our minds some day, we should be free to go our separate ways." Of course, there are some women who'd have no problem with that; but in my experience, the majority of women would react rather negatively.

But try this: tell them that you've just learned about this fascinating group in China where the women are in charge. The women are the head of the house, and make all the decisions. And more than that, the women never get married; they can simply choose and change partners as they please.

Now, here's the thing; in 90% of the cases where I talk about this, the women immediately respond very positively! Same product; different presentation. In the former case, I'm perceived as a chauvinistic jerk who's afraid of commitment; in the latter case, I'm perceived as a caring individual who is open to new ideas and sensitive to women's issues.
[/humorous digression]

[Hawk one]

So this whole project you're in is just a ploy to score chicks after all? :p:p:p

[Wolfman]

Going to live for a month in a village of a matriarchal minority in the Himalayas -- $1200

Setting up a non-profit organization to help that minority -- $3000

Building schools to improve education for that minority -- $20,000



Being able to do all this, and score points with the chicks -- Priceless

[JJM 777]

Beware of too much education or contact with the western world, or romantic Hollywood movies and such.

:duck:

[FSM]

Have I told you lately that you're pretty cool, Wolfman? No rule against helping people AND scoring some honeys...

Hawk: Have I told you lately that I'm proud to call myself your groupie?

[Wolfman]

:bowl::mdance::monkeyr::duel:alien011:

Oh, yeah...

*bump*

[Orphia Nay]

I'll second that bump.

:bump2

Yay, Wolfie, old beast!

:cheerleader4

[Wolfman]

Okay, some recent news:

I joined Second Life about two months ago (wanted to see what all the fuss was about), and through a variety of circumstances was invited to give a virtual presentation about the Mosuo culture, and our organization's work, at a SL event.

Although it was advertised only one day before, I still had over 60 people attend; my half hour presentation was followed by more than 2 hours of Q&A. There were a number of anthropologists and linguists present who are very interested in what we are doing, and who may get involved. And I've been invited to give the same lecture at five more SL events.

Out of a total of 15 different presentations during this SL event, on a wide variety of topics, mine was by far the most popular, and received overwhelmingly great reviews from the participants. Quite a nice start :-)

If anyone here is interested to attend one of my future SL presentations about the Mosuo, let me know, and I'll inform you of date/time/place for the next one.

[Wolfman]

Here are some pics of me doing the presentation. It's a younger, more handsome version of me :D
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1439346e6088b5fd85.jpg


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1439346e6088b86e68.jpg

[Orphia Nay]

Congratulations on your success with the presentation, Wolfie. It sounds like you've found a good way to reach some experts that your project needs. I hope that is the case.

I find the contrast between Mosuo life and Second Life striking.

But am I patronising them, and do some of the Mosuo have the internet?

[Wolfman]

Within the main tourist area of Lugu Lake, there are internet bars and fairly good internet access. But for most Mosuo, no, they would not have access. And I doubt many of them at all would be on Second Life.

It turns out that there is quite an extensive academic presence in SL, it is proving to be an excellent way of meeting and networking with professionals from all over the world.

[mslxl]

Dear Wolfman,

Congratulations on this extraordinary work! I had to read the whole thread in one sitting. Fascinating!

I have two comments.

First, you expressed your dismay at seeing Mosuo adults treat children as if they had "no soul." I can relate to that. I experienced the same cultural shock in West Africa. I think a key to finding a broader context in which to understand that attitude is in investigating what initiation is. Originally, in so-called primitive societies, initiation was the beginning of personhood, not just adulthood or membership in a defined group. "Childhood," as just an aspect of being human, is a rather recent concept. Starting from induction into the human, a.k.a. adult, community, initiation evolved by specializing in priest/healer training, then preparation for other specialties. Today, in our "developed" societies, initiation is fragmented into myriads of school rituals, sports rituals, military rituals, diplomas, licenses, ranks, clubs, orders, fellowships and professional associations. I think it is fair to say that the closer a culture is to the "one time only, major transition into full personhood" model, the more you will observe adults treating children in ways that are "appalling" from our "children are persons too" perspective.

The lack of consideration given to non-initiated children would seem to agree with other "archaic" traits like matriarchy to make this a very ancient culture.

I recommend looking at Mircea Eliade's book on initiation. It is old, but he does a good job of digging up this "core beliefs" dimension of initiation.

Do you have any additional information on initiation in the Mosuo culture?


Second comment. You wrote about the traditional priest:

"Thus, his actual understanding of "medicine" is rather comical (from our perspective)...his view on it is that medicine is basically just another religious means of doing what he does: that is, defeat evil spirits with the judicious application of the appropriate ceremonies."

Actually, at the scale of global human history, his view is correct. The separation of the roles of priest and healer of the body started in recent times and in relatively small geocultural areas. To be specific, it is largely an effect of the roman catholic church's ruthless effort to wipe out traditional healing in Europe and concentrate the authority over all things spiritual in its own hands. The scientifically trained doctor may have become the standard of the healing profession, but he is still a descendant of the priests and shamans of our animist ancestors.

mslxl

[Kopji]

Hi wolfman,
very cool thread, and best of luck with the complexities you face. Some of the cultural questions and issues seem very similar to those faced by some of the tribes in the US Southwest. The Arizona village of Supai is only accessible by a 10 mile trail of foot/horse/mule -- and helicopter. The impact on business, culture and the people is fascinating to observe.

There is an anxiety about wanting to help, and knowing that they must largely work things out themselves if they are to survive as a unique people. You seem to feel that for these people and I wish you luck.

One of my favorite books is a book of poetry from Chinese women ('The Orchid boat')- who were mostly concubines or otherwise matriarchal society. I am curious if the Mosuo have a similar tradition of stories or poetry that has been documented?

[Wolfman]

First, you expressed your dismay at seeing Mosuo adults treat children as if they had "no soul." I can relate to that. I experienced the same cultural shock in West Africa. I think a key to finding a broader context in which to understand that attitude is in investigating what initiation is. Originally, in so-called primitive societies, initiation was the beginning of personhood, not just adulthood or membership in a defined group. "Childhood," as just an aspect of being human, is a rather recent concept. Starting from induction into the human, a.k.a. adult, community, initiation evolved by specializing in priest/healer training, then preparation for other specialties. Today, in our "developed" societies, initiation is fragmented into myriads of school rituals, sports rituals, military rituals, diplomas, licenses, ranks, clubs, orders, fellowships and professional associations. I think it is fair to say that the closer a culture is to the "one time only, major transition into full personhood" model, the more you will observe adults treating children in ways that are "appalling" from our "children are persons too" perspective.
I don't dispute at all that different environments, circumstances, and cultures will cause vastly different perspectives; and although this seemed rather strange/shocking to me at first, I also see benefits from it. As I explained earlier, the Mosuo tended to have high infant mortality rates in the past, and this could serve as a valuable coping tool to deal with that. In addition, Mosuo families will sometimes "trade" children if one family has too many males, and another too many females. Again, this idea that the child is not a full "human" makes such exchanges easier, and helps maintain a relatively equal gender balance within a family. Keep in mind, with the Mosuo system, if a particular generation of children were all male, there would be no further offspring within that family.
Do you have any additional information on initiation in the Mosuo culture?This is not an area I have a great deal of expertise in, and am hesitant to say much because I know it may be wrong; I try to only cover those topics I've discussed with the Mosuo in detail, and where I feel I'm representing them accurately. However, it is certainly an area that I plan to explore more in future; at that time, will provide more information here.
Second comment. You wrote about the traditional priest:

"Thus, his actual understanding of "medicine" is rather comical (from our perspective)...his view on it is that medicine is basically just another religious means of doing what he does: that is, defeat evil spirits with the judicious application of the appropriate ceremonies."

Actually, at the scale of global human history, his view is correct. The separation of the roles of priest and healer of the body started in recent times and in relatively small geocultural areas. To be specific, it is largely an effect of the roman catholic church's ruthless effort to wipe out traditional healing in Europe and concentrate the authority over all things spiritual in its own hands. The scientifically trained doctor may have become the standard of the healing profession, but he is still a descendant of the priests and shamans of our animist ancestors.While I see your point, I would tend to disagree with you somewhat. It is arguable, certainly, that our 'modern' practice of medicine grew out of older religious roots; but equally arguable that much of the modern medical development came about in an entirely secular environment, with "medicine" growing as an offshoot of "science" rather than as an offshoot of any religious roles.

But this is a debate that would have reasonable points on either side, and is rather peripheral to the central issue; that is, how to get people to seek meaningful medical care, instead of relying on getting rid of evil spirits or appeasing angry ancestors. For example, there was a non-profit organization who came through the area performing free eyes surgeries for those who had reversible blindness. A number of people, particularly children, did not take advantage of this because their local Daba told them that it was not an auspicious time for doing this. As a result, quite a few children who could have had their blindness cured will instead go through life without sight. While I try to remain sensitive to local culture, religion, etc., this is a problem that I personally have big issues with.
Hi wolfman,
very cool thread, and best of luck with the complexities you face. Some of the cultural questions and issues seem very similar to those faced by some of the tribes in the US Southwest. The Arizona village of Supai is only accessible by a 10 mile trail of foot/horse/mule -- and helicopter. The impact on business, culture and the people is fascinating to observe. I'd agree completely -- except that the Mosuo have not yet had their culture decimated in the way that Native Americans have. A large part of my hope in this regard is to help them avoid that particular fate.
One of my favorite books is a book of poetry from Chinese women ('The Orchid boat')- who were mostly concubines or otherwise matriarchal society. I am curious if the Mosuo have a similar tradition of stories or poetry that has been documented?First, I should clarify that "The Orchid Boat" is not written by women from a matriarchal culture (and the concubine system is completely patriarchal); it is, rather, a collection of poetry written by Chinese women from different times in China's history.

In regards to the Mosuo, as noted earlier, they have no written language, so everything is passed on orally. Certainly, they have stories and legends; and they love to sing, and have many beautiful songs. But documentation, without a written language, is extremely difficult. In the long term, I'd certainly like to do something like this, though.

[Kopji]

...I'd agree completely -- except that the Mosuo have not yet had their culture decimated in the way that Native Americans have. A large part of my hope in this regard is to help them avoid that particular fate.

Humm, maybe. I see some parallels though. The Hulapai are very proud of some of their accomplishments, much pride is found in other tribes too. No, they don't wear war bonnets and stuff but their culture is definitely reflected in their business values and decisions. There are pockets of the old traditions, but also the new.

'Tradition' seems very fragile when the scope is widened to look at three generations. If the children do not remain or find value in the community, there will be change.

...First, I should clarify that "The Orchid Boat" is not written by women from a matriarchal culture (and the concubine system is completely patriarchal); it is, rather, a collection of poetry written by Chinese women from different times in China's history.

Yeah thanks, I know. That was probably too abstract an example. The concubines were well educated women and had a relatively high status - a unique creative island in a big sea.

In regards to the Mosuo, as noted earlier, they have no written language, so everything is passed on orally. Certainly, they have stories and legends; and they love to sing, and have many beautiful songs. But documentation, without a written language, is extremely difficult. In the long term, I'd certainly like to do something like this, though.
The Navajo (Dine') clans are matriarchal, they have a rich verbal tradition in song which is sadly vanishing. The local university (NAU) has a program where they go out and record the songs and what they mean, but the old singers are dying.

Enjoyed the thread. I thought the Alpaca idea was a good one. There are Alpaca and Llama farms in our area, but I don't personally know of any Native American owners.

The obvious problem with too much reliance on tourism is that it is very susceptible to downturns in the economy. So diversification = good. Tourism is also a bit insidious in that it takes as well as gives. You probably know far more than I.

[Wolfman]

The obvious problem with too much reliance on tourism is that it is very susceptible to downturns in the economy. So diversification = good. Tourism is also a bit insidious in that it takes as well as gives. You probably know far more than I.I agree completely. Tourism is seen primarily as a short-term means of injecting cash into the community, which can then be used to develop other industries (such as the alpaca idea). In addition, tourism is much, much more harmful when it is in the control of 'outsiders' (who don't have any real investment in or concern about the local culture) than when it is under control of the actual people involved. Tourism is seen as a 'necessary evil', but one that can be reasonably controlled if the Mosuo themselves are able to be in charge of it.

[Professor Yaffle]

I have just discovered this thread and have pretty much read all of it at one sitting, I found it so fascinating. So I wanted to add my voice to the chorus thanking you for sharing this with us.

You mentioned the Mosuo like singing and dancing, and I wondered if you could share what you know about their musical traditions? What instruments (if any) do they play? Are they the same instruments that are used in neighbouring cultures/completely different/related. What about the style of music itself? Anything you want to share really!

[Wolfman]

I have just discovered this thread and have pretty much read all of it at one sitting, I found it so fascinating. So I wanted to add my voice to the chorus thanking you for sharing this with us.

You mentioned the Mosuo like singing and dancing, and I wondered if you could share what you know about their musical traditions? What instruments (if any) do they play? Are they the same instruments that are used in neighbouring cultures/completely different/related. What about the style of music itself? Anything you want to share really!
A great question, and one that led me to do something I should have done a long, long time ago in this thread...check YouTube for Mosuo-related videos! Turns out there's a bunch of them, I've kinda' weeded out the best of them for you, and will post them here, with some commentary. You can find more videos by searching YouTube for "Mosuo" and "Lugu Lake", but I think the ones I've put here are pretty much the best ones. If you do find others you find interesting, or have questions about, feel free to post them here, and I'll add what commentary I can :-)

So, first, in regards to music, here are a few videos of Mosuo singing and dancing. There are really two different kinds of singing: one is done when walking/working, and mostly consists of men and women singing back and forth to each other (mostly flirtatious/courtship songs); the other is done when dancing around a fire, and tends to involve relatively little singing. There are also singing "contests" (sorry, no video of this that I can find) where men and women line up on opposite sides of the fire, and chant back and forth. The tune is always they same, but they must improvise the lines, basically making jokes about the other side; the "loser" is the side that cannot come up with something new in time, or that repeats something previously said.

The dancing is quite interesting; they will form a single-file line, holding hands, and walk in circles around a central fire. At first, the dance seems incredibly simplistic; but as they continue, the steps get more and more intricate, changed at the whim of whoever is leading the line. By the end of it, they'll be kicking feet in the air, doing intricate jigs, etc....all while standing so close together than one misstep could mess up the whole line.

So...the videos!

These first two videos are of dances done at the Mosuo Cultural Museum (which I've mentioned in several of my posts). It is a show put on for the tourists, but it still a fairly accurate representation of the typical dancing:
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[Wolfman]

The next two videos are of women singing while rowing boats on Lugu Lake. This gives an idea not only of their music, but also some nice shots of the beauty of the lake. If you'll listen, you'll hear the expression "ma da mi" repeated quite often; this is Mosuo for "I love you", and is one of the most common refrains in all their songs.
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And here, for your enjoyment, is a nice short video giving a 360 degree panoramic view of Luoshui, the main tourist area, and of Lugu Lake and surrounding mountains.
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[Wolfman]

Next, I was really pleased to find these two videos of the village of "Wenquan" (which means "hot springs" in Chinese, and has that name because of natural hot springs that exist in the area. The Mosuo name for the village, which I usually use, is Walabi). Walabi is the village I lived in the first time I went to visit the Mosuo, and is where my "adopted" Mosuo family lives; it is pretty much my "home" among the Mosuo. I know pretty well everyone that you see in the videos.

The first one shows the village itself, and people in the village. You will notice a few people have motorcycles or other vehicles; these are generally families who have established some sort of business in the tourist area, and have more money, but Walabi itself is not a tourist area, and is still a very 'typical' Mosuo village.

You will also notice people driving through rather deep water. This is actually quite common. Rains almost always produce new streams, and roads are washed out regularly. I've spent many a harrowing journey sitting astride a motorcycle as we barrel up and down twisting mountain paths, forcing our way across streams, etc.
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This second video, a continuation of the first one, shows more of the typical daily scenes you'll see in and around Walabi, or any other 'typical' Mosuo village.
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[Wolfman]

And finally, here's a fairly decent and informative video about the Mosuo. I'd consider most of the information here to be correct, with the proviso that it is really discussing only the tourist area of the Mosuo region. The comments are fairly relevant in regards to those working in the tourist area, but not so much so when discussing the majority of Mosuo who live in other areas.

One clarification, the video features a Mosuo woman stating that she rejects the traditional "walking marriage" because it ties the woman to the home, and only the men have the freedom to go outside, get education, get jobs, etc. Actually, this is something of a misrepresentation.

The oldest female child -- who will some day be expected to take over leadership of the family -- is generally expected to stay at home, and learn all about handling the family responsibilities. That aspect is true.

However, younger girls, as well as the boys, all have more 'freedom', and can pursue education, work, etc. However, when it comes to getting jobs in the 'outside' world, it is a pragmatic truth that men are more likely to get jobs (particularly labor jobs) than women are. So some families may put more money into promoting the opportunities of male children over female children. This is not an artifact of the culture, but of economic realities.

Although the commentator speaks English, all the interviews are in Mosuo or Mandarin, with no translation; my apologies for that, but you should still get a lot from it.
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ETA: Ooops...this video can't be embedded here. Well, no problem...just click on the video image, and it will take you to YouTube, where you can watch the video.

[Wolfman]

Oh, and just to clarify -- none of these videos were made by me. I just found them on YouTube :) What did we do before YouTube?

[Wolfman]

Oh...keep finding more great videos! Why, oh why, did I not think of this sooner? Here's probably the best video thus far of Lugu Lake itself, showing the natural beauty of the area:
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[Wolfman]

And another one...from the same guy who did the videos of Walabi (Wenquan) above, another video of him hiking through the mountain (non-tourist) areas, that give more shots of the scenery, and some of the local people/life.
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[Hokulele]

Cool videos! I had one question on the second video from Walabi (the 7th one total). Towards the end, when there were about 30 seconds left, there were people walking down the street and one was carrying what looked like flags hanging from tree branches with leaves on them. What was that all about?

[Wolfman]

Cool videos! I had one question on the second video from Walabi (the 7th one total). Towards the end, when there were about 30 seconds left, there were people walking down the street and one was carrying what looked like flags hanging from tree branches with leaves on them. What was that all about?
That's the great thing about videos...they bring up so many other things that I would not have thought to cover, and new topics for discussion :-)

Yes, that is a tree branch; the 'flags' are Tibetan prayer flags (which are common throughout all Mosuo communities). A prayer is printed on each flag, with the idea that each time the flag flutters in the breeze, the prayer is sent to heaven. Beside Walabi, there is a small mountain with an altar on top; it is common for people to take offerings up to the altar, and to place new prayer flags there. So this video shows a family who are on their way to make prayers/offerings at that altar.

Prayer wheels are also quite common; this is a wheel that has a prayer printed around the circumference, and every time you spin the wheel, it is the same as saying a prayer (Tibetan Buddhism makes prayer very, very easy). Here's a picture of a woman with her prayer wheel; many of the older women habitually walk around spinning these all day.
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1439346f20be1b6ad5.jpg

[Hokulele]

Thanks for the response! How do the Tibetan Buddhism rituals interact with their indigenous religion?

[Wolfman]

There is really no conflict between the local Daba religion, and the Tibetan Buddhist religion. On a day-to-day basis, Tibetan Buddhism predominates. You see prayer flags and prayer wheels everywhere; many families will send at least one son to Tibet to be trained as a monk (and there's a significant difference here...any male can become a monk, but only sons of a Daba priest can become a priest themselves, which makes it rather self-limiting).

The Daba priest is more of a "special occasions" kind of guy. For naming ceremonies, funerals, divining ceremonies, or other such things, he's the one who is called on. He is the one who determines the auspicious dates for building a house, or setting off on a journey.

I guess one way to put it would be like this; Tibetan Buddhism is more visibly prevalent, but also more passive. You hang up some prayer flags, hang some prayer wheels, say your prayers at the altar in the morning, etc. The Daba faith is less visible, but more active; when you need to make an actual decision, or when you face specific problems, you go to the Daba priest.

This is, inevitably, a terribly over-simplification of what is really a rather complex interaction between the two. Often, both Tibetan monks and a Daba priest may be called on for guidance or advice, and be involved simultaneously in the same ceremonies. Funerals are a good example, usually being presided over by both Tibetan monks and Daba priests. But there is generally little or no conflict; the two are seen as complementary to each other, not competitive.

[BlackCat]

Great videos, Wolfie, thanks for posting them. I wasn't sure if you were aware, but I saw a program on the National Geographic channel a few days ago, Taboo, I think it was, and it had a segment about the Mosuo. Although it was interesting, it didn't teach me anything that you hadn't already, and sometimes it seemed like they couldn't see other cultures without their own culture tainting their view. (I know that sounds vague, I guess what I mean is they still saw things in a "patriarchal" way.) The most interesting part was just seeing how people dress, and how the area looks.

Also, I'd love to ask more questions, but I can't think of anything interesting. I'll let you know if I do.

[luchog]

TThis is, inevitably, a terribly over-simplification of what is really a rather complex interaction between the two. Often, both Tibetan monks and a Daba priest may be called on for guidance or advice, and be involved simultaneously in the same ceremonies. Funerals are a good example, usually being presided over by both Tibetan monks and Daba priests. But there is generally little or no conflict; the two are seen as complementary to each other, not competitive.
It sounds similar to the relationship between Buddhism and Shinto in Japan.

[Fnord]

A world without marriage...

... is a world without divorce.

(Nuff Sed)

[UnrepentantSinner]

I'm glad I finally got around to checking those videos out. The scenery is beautiful there.

Question about the garb for the dance in the first video. The womens costumes seemed to have a western and more specifically a Victorian feel to them. Am I seeing something that's not there?

[Wolfman]

I'm glad I finally got around to checking those videos out. The scenery is beautiful there.

Question about the garb for the dance in the first video. The womens costumes seemed to have a western and more specifically a Victorian feel to them. Am I seeing something that's not there?
Well, there may be a similarity with some Victorian styles, I don't know...but it would be purely coincidental. These are traditional styles of clothing that have existed for several hundred years among the Mosuo. The only real change has been in the fabrics used (in the past, almost all clothing was made either from wool or from hemp; now, the more affluent Mosuo will buy clothes made with silk or satin for the traditional outfits).

[UnrepentantSinner]

Well, there may be a similarity with some Victorian styles, I don't know...but it would be purely coincidental. These are traditional styles of clothing that have existed for several hundred years among the Mosuo. The only real change has been in the fabrics used (in the past, almost all clothing was made either from wool or from hemp; now, the more affluent Mosuo will buy clothes made with silk or satin for the traditional outfits).

That's what I figured. The similarities were mostly superficial (dress style/cut and the hats). Some of the accoutremonts to the dresses were definately Chinese/Tibetan.

The video of the covered, moterized trike reminded me of an episode of The Amazing Race where they used a similar vehicle in Sri Lanka referred to locally as a Tuc Tuc (sic). I would love one of those.

[verusl@centurytel.ne]

As an abstract to THIS society, how can one easily forget the existence of such a culture within the framework of our own society - a tried and failed attempt known as the "hippie movement", wherein communal shared living was the order of the day..."free love" abounded and the same basic outlines were established in many of the habitats....no overt indecency "in the faces" of other members of the community and especially none in front of the children....a modicum of stability was established by providing rooms for couples with singles just hanging about in hopes of an invite into private arrangements. Families shared everything in common and responsibilities were assigned only on a casual basis...with the general trendy belief that if one does not contribute one does not eat. Much more about this lifestyle is to be said for a full parallel to be drawn. The gist of it all can easily be found in books such as "The Whole Earth Catalog", "The Next Whole Eart Catalog", and their final volume (of which I am clueless as to title), as well as the "Foxfire" (or is it "Firefox) series. Having lived on the fringes of that society and its misgivings (the drug culture and the separation from church and state, not to mention one's paternal/maternal families and sibling rivals
.........well, everyone should be able to get the drift, whatever felt good, one did just that and no one criticized or condemned or protested against such should a member fail to amount to anything in society. And just as often as not those irresponsible lads who had the run of the stalls could sire (for lack of a better word) bastard children. Alas I used a misnomer (to some), I am sure.... but labels are just what they appear to be - just words and mine are not uttered with contempt or judgmental viewpoint, but with discernment and concern. Many times this lifestyle led to cultism...a far worse evil (but that is, of course, another story, and another thread one may pick up on). The operative word herein is, certainly, TRIED AND FAILED.

[Wolfman]

As an abstract to THIS society, how can one easily forget the existence of such a culture within the framework of our own society - a tried and failed attempt known as the "hippie movement", wherein communal shared living was the order of the day..."free love" abounded and the same basic outlines were established in many of the habitats....no overt indecency "in the faces" of other members of the community and especially none in front of the children....a modicum of stability was established by providing rooms for couples with singles just hanging about in hopes of an invite into private arrangements. Families shared everything in common and responsibilities were assigned only on a casual basis...with the general trendy belief that if one does not contribute one does not eat. Much more about this lifestyle is to be said for a full parallel to be drawn. The gist of it all can easily be found in books such as "The Whole Earth Catalog", "The Next Whole Eart Catalog", and their final volume (of which I am clueless as to title), as well as the "Foxfire" (or is it "Firefox) series. Having lived on the fringes of that society and its misgivings (the drug culture and the separation from church and state, not to mention one's paternal/maternal families and sibling rivals
.........well, everyone should be able to get the drift, whatever felt good, one did just that and no one criticized or condemned or protested against such should a member fail to amount to anything in society. And just as often as not those irresponsible lads who had the run of the stalls could sire (for lack of a better word) bastard children. Alas I used a misnomer (to some), I am sure.... but labels are just what they appear to be - just words and mine are not uttered with contempt or judgmental viewpoint, but with discernment and concern. Many times this lifestyle led to cultism...a far worse evil (but that is, of course, another story, and another thread one may pick up on). You are far from the first person to see some parallels between the hippie movement and the Mosuo culture. However, some key differences that create very clear differentiation between the two:

* the hippie movement generally lacked any leadership or power structure. Everyone was supposed to be equal, and the focus was on doing what made you feel good. In Mosuo culture, there is a very clear power structure, and a clearly delineated hierarchy. The focus is on doing what is best for the family.

* while the hippie movement did try to make communal groups, people within those groups could generally join and leave them as they pleased. Almost none of those communal groups lasted more than 5 or 10 years. Mosuo families, by contrast, are extremely tightly knit, with most family members -- both male and female -- staying not only in the same family, but in the same home, for their entire lives.

* the hippie movement, obviously, focused in a big way on drug use. While not all hippies participated in this (and certainly, they participated to varying degrees), it nevertheless reinforced the lack of sense of responsibility to the group as a whole. The strongest drug that I'm aware of the Mosuo using is marijuana, which grows naturally there, and which is locally quite weak, giving little more than a light buzz.

* the hippie movement focused on the "free love" idea, wherein people could change partners as often as they wanted, or have relationships with several partners at the same time. The Mosuo are, as described previously, 'serial monogamists'. They do not generally jump from partner to partner (although there are not specific cultural taboos against such behavior), and would almost never be carrying on sexual relationships with more than one person at the same time. Mosuo relationships are certainly more flexible and changeable than 'traditional' relationships, but nevertheless are taken somewhat more seriously than they were in the hippie movement.

* the hippie movement essentially died out after a fairly short period of time; the Mosuo culture is hundreds/thousands (difficult to give exact figures because of lack of written records) of years old.
The operative word herein is, certainly, TRIED AND FAILED.Well, technically, that's more than one word. And yes, I'd agree that the hippie movement failed to demonstrate any real staying power. It was fun for young people rebelling against perceived authorities; but lacked the structure and cohesion to keep them together as a society as they matured, and as life presented them with more complex challenges. As stated above, the Mosuo by contrast have quite a long history...the operative words here being TRIED AND PROVEN.

[Kaylee]

* the hippie movement generally lacked any leadership or power structure. Everyone was supposed to be equal, and the focus was on doing what made you feel good. In Mosuo culture, there is a very clear power structure, and a clearly delineated hierarchy. The focus is on doing what is best for the family.

* while the hippie movement did try to make communal groups, people within those groups could generally join and leave them as they pleased. Almost none of those communal groups lasted more than 5 or 10 years. Mosuo families, by contrast, are extremely tightly knit, with most family members -- both male and female -- staying not only in the same family, but in the same home, for their entire lives.


Any mechanism in place for daughters that would like to "divorce" their families? Either start their own house or move into a different house?

What about the men? How many choices do they have for their permanent abode? Is there more than one communal home for them?

Also, I was wondering, given that the uncles are expected to help supprot their nieces and nephews -- do they get any say in birth control practices?

[Wolfman]

Any mechanism in place for daughters that would like to "divorce" their families? Either start their own house or move into a different house?
Actually, yes, there are specific mechanisms in place for such eventualities. Sometimes, men or women within a particular family may reject that family, or be kicked out of a family. In such cases, there are two main options.

1) Start a new family. This option is available only to the women (as there must be a female head of the new family), although a man may join her in founding the new home. In other words, a woman could start a new family on her own, or she could start it with another man; but a man could not start a new family on his own (the exception to this being the Daba families, I would assume, since they still follow a patriarchal system, although I have not explicitly discussed this topic with them, so this is based on my assumptions, not on confirmed fact). I referred earlier to a book called "Leaving Mother Lake", which is the story of one Mosuo woman's childhood; in that story, her mother had actually left her home to start a new family, because of disagreements with the rest of the family. As a result, instead of growing up on a large family with an extensive network of relations, she grew up with only her mother to care for her (and the occasional involvement of her father).

2) Adoption by another family. The Mosuo seem to practice adoption much more frequently and commonly than most other cultures I know. A person who left (or was kicked out of) their own family could be adopted into another.
What about the men? How many choices do they have for their permanent abode? Is there more than one communal home for them?No real choices for the men within a Mosuo community. Men do not have their own houses/homes. However, men have the option of leaving their community altogether...to go find work elsewhere, and live on their own. This does happen, but is extremely rare; to be excluded from their home and community like that would be terribly traumatic for most of them.
Also, I was wondering, given that the uncles are expected to help supprot their nieces and nephews -- do they get any say in birth control practices?Well, they would have some "say" in regards to giving advice, certainly. In fact, the oldest man in the house generally is second only to the family matriarch in decision-making and giving advice. But final decisions in this regard (as in pretty much every other area) would be up to the matriarch.

I mentioned this earlier, but it bears mentioning here; the Mosuo essentially monitor and maintain very carefully both the size and the gender balance of their family. If the family gets smaller, they'll have more children. If the family is already of a suitable size, or is too large, they'll stop having children. If a family has too many children of one gender, they'll swap kids with another family that has too many of the opposite gender.

[verusl@centurytel.ne]

Say. There has been some highly instructive parallels drawn here and I'll be the first to admit to have learned a thing or two. I do recall that you stated earlier on that system has worked for them due in large part to maternal superiority over paternal (woman over man - did I get that correct?) and the society thrives within a structure like an Amazonian construct.... well, this is interesting indeed because it sounds rather much like a society that would never tolerate same sex relationships to any degree (seemingly the chance for repulsion from the family structure would be total, and with the man having no power to form a household of his own....well, obviously he'd be an outcast were he to be such a person as to choose a homosexual lifestyle..... Perhaps this never enters into the equation, but I think it does somewhere in there. Moreover, I believe that you have quite possibly the deepest respect and love for these people to have gone so deeply into their culture and amassed so large a database on even the smallest of their affairs. You are quite remarkable in your analogies, and your demeanor in defending your points of view is commendable.

[Wolfman]

I do recall that you stated earlier on that system has worked for them due in large part to maternal superiority over paternal (woman over man - did I get that correct?) and the society thrives within a structure like an Amazonian construct.... well, this is interesting indeed because it sounds rather much like a society that would never tolerate same sex relationships to any degree.I would not describe this culture as "Amazonian" in that the typical interpretation of an Amazonian culture is not only that women are empowered, but that men are essentially emasculated and reduced to a role as little more than breeding stock. As mentioned elsewhere, despite having women in charge, Mosuo men are quite "masculine" by pretty much any standard, and have a definite role in society that far exceeds simply being there as breeders.

And no, homosexuality is actually more tolerated in Mosuo culture than in many others; there are no explicit taboos against it within the culture, and the overall attitude seems to be one of "don't ask, don't tell".
Moreover, I believe that you have quite possibly the deepest respect and love for these people to have gone so deeply into their culture and amassed so large a database on even the smallest of their affairs. You are quite remarkable in your analogies, and your demeanor in defending your points of view is commendable.Thank you. Yes, the Mosuo culture is one that is very special to me. My answers here are intended not to "defend my point of view" (if that were the case, I likely would be more aggressive in my responses), but rather to serve as a representative of the Mosuo people, to explain their culture as clearly and as fairly as I can.

I've done my best in all answers within this thread to clarify where my answers are based on direct information given to me by the Mosuo themselves (and/or qualified anthropologists who work with the Mosuo); where questions are asked that I have not specifically discussed with the Mosuo, I will state that those are personal opinion, and may not be as accurate. In situations where there may be different opinions, I will do my best to present those different opinions for peoples' consideration.

In short -- I don't consider this a debate, or an argument. I'm not trying to 'win' any arguments. In this case, a 'victory' doesn't consist of getting people to agree with me; it consists simply in my success in letting more people know about the Mosuo.

And thanks for your interest, and your comments :)

[Kaylee]

No real choices for the men within a Mosuo community. Men do not have their own houses/homes. However, men have the option of leaving their community altogether...to go find work elsewhere, and live on their own. This does happen, but is extremely rare; to be excluded from their home and community like that would be terribly traumatic for most of them.


Hmmm. I am surprised as it seems that one thing people have in common, regardless where we live, is figuring out how to get along with each other.

I would think that each community would have several communal houses instead of just one, to help give some of the men who needed it some space from each other.

Anyway, thanks again for explaining the Mosuo culture. Its really great to have this rare opportunity to find out about another culture -- and I appreciate it! :)

[Wolfman]

I would think that each community would have several communal houses instead of just one, to help give some of the men who needed it some space from each other.
I know that, for myself, the communal aspect of Mosuo culture would drive me absolutely crazy if I lived there for an extended time. There is virtually no individual privacy at all, particularly for men.

If a guy needed to get away from his home for a short time, there would be little or no difficulty with staying in a friend's home overnight (in fact, I've had several nights with the Mosuo where, after a night of fairly heavy drinking and singing, we all just slept together in the same communal area). But for a guy who had actually been kicked out of his home (or left it), the only long-term solution would be finding another family that would adopt him as a member in their home, or else to find a woman who would start a new home with him as her partner.

The Mosuo are very much a communal culture; that means that their identity is based primarily on the group they belong to, not on their individual identity. A man without a home is a man without an identity. A woman who leaves her home will face similar problems, but she at least has the ability to have children and build a new home, and a new "identity". A man, on his own, doesn't really have that option within the Mosuo culture.

While for me, living in such an environment would, I know, eventually drive me crazy, with no real concept of personal space or privacy, the Mosuo viewpoint is very different. Most Mosuo I know fear being alone; they need the presence of other people around them to feel comfortable. Yes, the women have private bedrooms, but based on my conversations with Mosuo women, almost none of them would sleep alone in those rooms. If they do not have a man staying with them that night, they will instead go and sleep in a communal area with other women. And once they are at an age where they're no longer engaging in sexual relations, they will almost always sleep in a communal area.

The Mosuo culture is not without its 'severe' aspects. As mentioned elsewhere, the Mosuo can be fairly liberal in regards to violence, for example; slitting a person's throat for thievery, for example. If you are a "part" of the community, you have a very strong support system to rely on; but if you are kicked out of that community, you will find yourself almost entirely on your own. They won't generally provide some sort of support system for such individuals, because they want the strongest possible disincentives for people to do the things that would cause them to be kicked out of the family.

[Wolfman]

The previous post reminded me somewhat tangentially of an experience I had this year; I was approached by a Dutch artist who wanted to do some sort of exhibition based on the Mosuo culture. I was skeptical -- simply because she's an artist, and less concerned about presenting 'truth' as opposed to presenting something she considers 'artistically significant' -- but talked with her about it, and agreed to provide at least some assistance in contacting the Mosuo.

She was financed in her efforts by an American-Chinese woman, and it turned out that she was really the one in control. It was clear from the first time we talked that while she wanted what assistance I could give, she wanted 100% credit for any results and publicity from this venture. Neither myself nor my organization was going to get any recognition for assistance we rendered.

Nevertheless, they planned to do an exhibition in Beijing, and later possibly in New York, that would at least increase awareness of the Mosuo people, even if it didn't increase awareness of our organization. So I still went along with it.

I met with them in Beijing, and rendered a significant amount of assistance to them in making their plans. They asked me to go to Lugu Lake with them, and I stated that I was willing to, but that they would need to cover my basic expenses (rather than expecting me to pay money out of my own pockets, or my organization's expenses, for something that they didn't even want to give us any recognition for). This American woman, despite being willing to spend tons of money on the exhibition itself, said that she felt she didn't have enough money to pay all of my expenses (and we are talking about a total of around $US 500 for four days for airfare and hotel...I wasn't even charging for my time).

I had some other people who were also interested in working with my organization who were going to be at Lugu Lake at around the same time, so I contacted them, and managed to work out an agreement whereby they would pay half of my costs. So now, the total amount that I was asking from this American woman to fly to Lugu Lake and assist her in her venture was a little over US $250...a bargain no matter how you look at it.

Anyway, I went there, introduced them to local people who gave them significant assistance in completing their project...and then suddenly, when I asked for the money, this American woman told me that she "wasn't satisfied with the services I'd rendered", and that she could have done everything on her own, so she was not willing to reimburse me for the amount that we had agreed on.

Now, since she was American Chinese, I understand some of her thinking...she saw me as the white foreigner, who doesn't understand Chinese culture; while she's Chinese, so she "knows how the culture works". She figured that once I'd introduced her to people there, and she had the contacts, then she no longer needed me, and could easily cut me out of the loop.

What she didn't count on was the reaction of the Mosuo people, who consider loyalty and honesty to be core virtues. Every Mosuo involved was a personal friend of mine, and had agreed to help only because of my request to do so. Once she cut me out, and I told them what happened, she got a cold shoulder that would make Antarctica look tropical by comparison. They refused to answer her phone calls, and actively created obstructions to whatever she wanted to do.

She did, in the end, manage to put the show together, but at much higher cost (and certainly more than the $250 that she tried to save by not paying me), and of terribly poor quality. The one regret I have is that, in not participating, the information that they put together on the Mosuo and gave to people at the show had quite a few inaccuracies; but given the attitudes I saw, I doubt that they would have given us much real input or changed things anyway.

Anyway, my point here -- the Mosuo are incredibly good friends to have. The incredible loyalty that they demonstrate, the willingness to go to any length to help a friend, is incredible. Once you've established a real friendship with them, it is a friendship for life, and a friendship you can count on completely.

But the flip side of that is that you absolutely do not want Mosuo as your enemy; they have few inhibitions about violence (when they feel it is warranted), and are more than happy to act as both judge and jury. I've had to be very careful in my relationships, because the loyalty they show to me is, of course, expected to be reciprocated by myself. Anything that they view as disloyal, or disrepectful of the relationship, could cause really serious damage (both to our relationship, and to my own physical well being). Thus far, I've done okay (and have been fortunate that they do recognize I'm from a different culture, and give me more flexibility when I occasionally make mistakes).

I emphasize this point primarily to deal with the perception (popularly promoted in many articles about the Mosuo) that the Mosuo culture has no violence, or is a culture where everyone is equal, where there are no problems, etc. Yes, the Mosuo culture is fascinating, and I think there are things we can learn from studying and learning about it; but, like every culture on the planet, it is not perfect, and it has its weaknesses and problems, too.

[Kaylee]

It was clear from the first time we talked that while she wanted what assistance I could give, she wanted 100% credit for any results and publicity from this venture. Neither myself nor my organization was going to get any recognition for assistance we rendered.

I really, really hate people like that. :mad:

<snip>

Anyway, I went there, introduced them to local people who gave them significant assistance in completing their project...and then suddenly, when I asked for the money, this American woman told me that she "wasn't satisfied with the services I'd rendered", and that she could have done everything on her own, so she was not willing to reimburse me for the amount that we had agreed on.

:mad:


What she didn't count on was the reaction of the Mosuo people, who consider loyalty and honesty to be core virtues. Every Mosuo involved was a personal friend of mine, and had agreed to help only because of my request to do so. Once she cut me out, and I told them what happened, she got a cold shoulder that would make Antarctica look tropical by comparison. They refused to answer her phone calls, and actively created obstructions to whatever she wanted to do.

<snip>

Anyway, my point here -- the Mosuo are incredibly good friends to have. The incredible loyalty that they demonstrate, the willingness to go to any length to help a friend, is incredible. Once you've established a real friendship with them, it is a friendship for life, and a friendship you can count on completely.

But the flip side of that is that you absolutely do not want Mosuo as your enemy; they have few inhibitions about violence (when they feel it is warranted), and are more than happy to act as both judge and jury. I've had to be very careful in my relationships, because the loyalty they show to me is, of course, expected to be reciprocated by myself. Anything that they view as disloyal, or disrepectful of the relationship, could cause really serious damage (both to our relationship, and to my own physical well being). Thus far, I've done okay (and have been fortunate that they do recognize I'm from a different culture, and give me more flexibility when I occasionally make mistakes).

I emphasize this point primarily to deal with the perception (popularly promoted in many articles about the Mosuo) that the Mosuo culture has no violence, or is a culture where everyone is equal, where there are no problems, etc. Yes, the Mosuo culture is fascinating, and I think there are things we can learn from studying and learning about it; but, like every culture on the planet, it is not perfect, and it has its weaknesses and problems, too.

I find it very, very interesting. They are different, yet I don't see them as completely radically different. Just emphasising different aspects of the same continuum of behavior. Wish I could express it better, but that is how I see it based on your posts.

[verusl@centurytel.ne]

I really, really hate people like that. :mad:



:mad:




I find it very, very interesting. They are different, yet I don't see them as completely radically different. Just emphasising different aspects of the same continuum of behavior. Wish I could express it better, but that is how I see it based on your posts.

Are these peoples without the hypocrisy/bigotry found in most other societies? It would reason out that, as within any society that cold shoulders anyone or locks them out, the level of "tolerance" expressed herein is the determining factor for most applications dealing with personal interaction. I believe most other societies actually have less tolerence and therefore the level of hypocrisy/bigotry is higher. What say you?

[Wolfman]

I don't think that you can generalize like that. Hypocrisy has little to do with what rules a society has; it has to do with your personal beliefs and actions. The Mosuo are just as capable of saying one thing and doing another as are people in any other culture.

[verusl@centurytel.ne]

If hypocrisy has so little to do with that aspect, then how do you explain the Republican System of American Society adopting "Democracy", opening its doors to the world for immigration and naturalizaton, then coming up with the Asian Exclusion Act which prohibited almost entirely the entry of Japanese while allowing Chinese to enter en masse. In fact it was to a large extent that "we" collectively brought on Japan's dissatisfaction and unrest with American policy....some say the impact of those hypocritical thinking schemes were hallmark in their ultimate attack on Pearl Harbor. Now this is no generalization, rather a specification. What do you think on your statement concerning hypocrisy with regard to the rules of society?

[Wolfman]

You are improperly conflating hypocrisy in national gov't policies and individual hypocrisy.

Your original comment was in regards to individual hypocrisy. Boiled down to its essence, hypocrisy can be summarized as "saying one thing while doing another", or "failing to practice what you preach".

Now, my individual beliefs are, in many cases, different than those of my society or my government. My parents, and the religion that I grew up in, teach that homosexuality is a sin...but I do not believe that. So the question of whether I am a hypocrite or not cannot be defined according to broad definitions of what my culture believes in. It must be defined in terms of what I, individually, say that I believe to be right or wrong.

Now, if I personally say publicly that discrimination against homosexuals is wrong, but then I refuse to hire someone because they are gay, then I am a hypocrite -- regardless of what my culture/government believes in regards to homosexuality. If I personally say publicly that homosexuality is evil, and a sin, but then I am discovered engaging in homosexual trysts, then I am a hypocrite -- regardless of what my culture/government believes in regards to homosexuality.

Yes, my government says and does things that I consider to be hypocritical -- I don't know of any government that does not. But your original question was not regarding government, it was regarding the individuals within the Mosuo culture. And, as I said, I don't think it is possible to generalize in making conclusions about rates of hypocrisy based on the "normal" beliefs within a culture; one must look instead at the individuals, and whether or not they act in a manner that consistently mirrors what they say they believe is right or wrong. A person who does is not a hypocrite; a person who does not is a hypocrite.

Or, if you want to look at it as a group, you might try to make an argument (as I believe you are attempting to do) that since the Mosuo don't have specific taboos against homosexuality, they are less likely to act "hypocritically" towards homosexuals. But on the other hand, you'd also have to consider all the younger Mosuo who say that they "treasure" their culture, while in practice they reject traditional practices in favor of "modern" life...which would, by definition, be hypocritical. Again, this is why I say it is impossible to generalize...you may be able to find a few individual categories in which "hypocrisy" is less likely, but that doesn't mean there won't be other categories where it is more common.

My objection -- such as it is -- to your original conclusion was that it seeks to take one isolated aspect of Mosuo culture/beliefs, and from that one aspect draw a wide conclusion about the entire culture. That simply cannot be done; if we really wanted to look at this seriously, we'd have to look at numerous different areas of Mosuo beliefs, what proportion of Mosuo actively shared those beliefs, and what proportion of those who said they shared those beliefs acted in a manner that indicated hypocritical behavior. Which is well beyond the scope of this discussion, and certainly well beyond my own ability to answer in an authoritative manner. The only answer I can give is that I believe it is incorrect to draw any conclusion, one way or the other, about "hypocrisy" in Mosuo culture, based on such limited data.

[verusl@centurytel.ne]

It is is indeed refreshing to be able to enter into honest discussion on such a topic as human cultures and not wind up embroiled in a quagmire of endless argument. You have kept things well balanced and easy to follow...thus lending to an atmosphere of hospitality, not hostility....tnx Amigo Keep on telling the tale and widening the gap between ignorance and its allies and narrowing that space between the ears to accommodate genuine historic and cultural exchange.

[Formerly]

Hello Wolfman!,

A few pages ago, you spoke about possibly helping the Mosuo open up trade with the outside world (my poorly chosen words, not yours!) - have you been able to establish trade with the outside world for some of the textiles that you said they produce? Or are such things regulated rather heavily by the Chinese government?

[Wolfman]

It is is indeed refreshing to be able to enter into honest discussion on such a topic as human cultures and not wind up embroiled in a quagmire of endless argument. You have kept things well balanced and easy to follow...thus lending to an atmosphere of hospitality, not hostility....tnx Amigo Keep on telling the tale and widening the gap between ignorance and its allies and narrowing that space between the ears to accommodate genuine historic and cultural exchange.
Thanks, too, for reading what is here, and for asking questions. I really appreciate the interest that people have shown in this topic.
Hello Wolfman!,

A few pages ago, you spoke about possibly helping the Mosuo open up trade with the outside world (my poorly chosen words, not yours!) - have you been able to establish trade with the outside world for some of the textiles that you said they produce? Or are such things regulated rather heavily by the Chinese government?
We've done this on a small scale, within China. We have provided financial assistance for a few small shops to be set up in popular tourist areas, to sell Mosuo products. The problem is that while Mosuo products are quite attractive, they're also very limited...there's just not much that is "real Mosuo handicraft". Mostly, it consists of hand-woven products (scarves, jackets, etc.) made of hemp or wool.

Selling these products has resulted in a moderate increase in income for some Mosuo, but it is far from being a solution.

This is why we are trying to find ways to broaden the scope of products that the Mosuo can offer; my own idea, mentioned some while ago, is to try at some point to import alpacas, teach the Mosuo to breed and care for them, then have them make hand-woven products out of alpaca hair. This utilizes skills they already have, to make a product that is still identifiably Mosuo, yet of a much higher quality (and much lesser availability), so that both prices and demand for such products will be higher (hopefully).

There are lots of other ideas and possibilities for the future; but right now, we're still very much in the beginning phases.

[Wolfman]

I received the following PM from a new member named Hex a few weeks ago with a question about the Mosuo. I replied to ask him if I could post it, and the answer, here in the thread. However, he never replied to my PM, and in fact his post count is still at zero, so I'm assuming that he's likely gone and not coming back. I'll therefore put his question and my reply here.


* Men's Development -- While it is generally easier to attract support for women's issues, men's issues tend to be less 'sexy' and 'politically correct'. However, there are serious issues in this regard, also. Traditionally, Mosuo men were traders, who took caravans around the region to trade with others. Thus, traditional male roles focused on trade and travel; traditional female roles focused on jobs at home (tending the fields, tending the animals, cooking, etc.). But now that these caravans are no longer very useful, the primary "male" role has disappeared, and many men are reluctant to take what are perceived as "female" roles. In addition, the area has almost no special natural resources that can be used to build an economic base.

Now I hope I'm not asking a question that's been answered, because I've only managed to finish reading one of the threads on the subject, and my comprehension was going toward the end of it. So I'll need a break before I continue reading, but I had a concern right here that would just nag me to no end if I didn't address it somehow.

Wouldn't putting the control of primary income, in the hands of the men be a Huge shift? Naturally most men would still consider their culture matriarchal, but as generations go by with those who have money being governed by those who are better educated I'm genuinely concerned that it would tilt or otherwise damage the culture by putting so much monetary value within the men.

But then again you did mention that they were formerly the traders, so at least some of my concern must be unfounded, then again producing goods, and trading them. Well it's all a strangely difficult concept to wrap my mind around and I'd sleep easier if you helped me out with it ^^'
No, I don't think this question has been asked yet.

In general, this is not having a significant impact on Mosuo culture. As you mention, men have long had a role as money-earners in Mosuo culture, this is nothing new. But then, as now, the money they earned was not considered their own money, but rather belonged to the entire family; and it was the matriarch of the family who determined how that money was used.

Sure, men are taking different jobs and roles than they did in the past; but they still give the money to the family, and the matriarch still determines how it should be used.

[Wolfman]

*UPDATE* (and bump)

There is a new website, GiveMeaning.com, that provides assistance in helping organizations like mine increase awareness of our work, and get financial support for our projects. I've registered a profile there, but before my proposal can be considered any further, I have to get a minimum of 100 votes from other people, indicating that the project has enough people who think it is worthwhile.

There is no commitment involved, you are not required to give money, you're just casting a vote to say, "Yes, I think this is a worthwhile project."

To cast your vote, please go here (http://www.givemeaning.com/project/mosuo).

Now, I'm gonna' impose myself on you a little further. Besides casting your own vote, if you might be willing to let your friends and family know, and get them voting also, that'd be great! I've written a basic letter below that you can feel free to use as an introduction, so that people know what this is about.

Oh...and after you cast your vote, if you'd like to take a little time to add some comments on the site, or ask questions, please feel free to do that, also!

My sincerest gratitude to anyone and everyone who takes the time to help us out!

----- Introductory Letter ------

The Lugu Lake Mosuo Cultural Development Association is a non-profit organization based in China that works with one of the Chinese minority groups living in the Himalayan Mountains, called the Mosuo. The Mosuo are a unique culture, being one of the few remaining matriarchal cultures in the world, and also having no cultural system of marriage. They are a truly fascinating culture.

They also live in one of the poorest and most remote areas of the world. Many Mosuo villages don't even have electricity; most villages don't have running water. Average annual income for many Mosuo is less than $US100/year.

Our organization seeks to help the Mosuo in areas such as education, cultural study/preservation, and economic development. For more information about the Mosuo culture, and about our organization's work with the Mosuo, you can check out our website at www.mosuoproject.org (http://www.mosuoproject.org/).

Now, we are seeking to gain assistance both in letting more people know about our work, and in raising funds to support our projects, by partnering with GiveMeaning.com. This is a website that helps publicize and raise funds for charitable projects all over the world. But before they will consider our organization, we need a minimum of 100 votes before Jan. 26, 2008. It only takes a few minutes to vote, and you are not required to give any money, or make any commitment for financial support. All you are doing is casting a vote to say, "Yes, this is a project that I think is worthwhile."

To vote, go to http://www.givemeaning.com/project/mosuo

And please, do pass this email on to any friends or family that you think would also be interested.

Thank you so much for your time, and your support!

John Lombard
Director
Lugu Lake Mosuo Cultural Development Association

[daenku32]

I really don't see how the Mosou is any different from our society.

While it is possible for a Mosuo woman to change partners as often as she likes – and in fact, having only one sexual partner would be neither expected nor common – the majority of such couplings will actually be more long term.

Women have the power to pick almost any man that is single. Men do not.

[Wolfman]

I really don't see how the Mosou is any different from our society.

Women have the power to pick almost any man that is single. Men do not.
An interesting perspective. Let me present another perspective.

In our society, there is generally a double standard between men and women who have many different sexual partners. Men who do this are seen as "studs"; women who do this are seen as "sluts". I know that this is a major generalization, but is a standard that is common enough that everyone here will be familiar with it.

On the other hand, among the Mosuo, there is no such double standard. Men and women have equal right/ability to have different sexual partners.

[Lensman]

Wolfman, I can make no promises, but I may be able to get hold of some used (fairly low spec Celerons with no more than about 128M of sdram) Dell computers. If I can, can you use them? I don't know how I'd get them to you though as I'm very, very far from being wealthy & certainly couldn't afford to ship them to China.

If this seems to be a useless post, don't worry about it, I'll understand.

[Arkayik]

The Mosuo are lucky to have such an ardent and erudite supporter as yourself. What a challenging and wonderful journey upon which you appear to have embarked.

I have read this thread with great interest, and must admit to the most base human instinct of looking for the "catch" (which points to my flaws more glaringly than anything else). To steal a phrase, when something looks too good to be true etc.... This looks unbelievably good! Kudos to you for what appears to be a wonderful... everything...!

Please forgive if the following has the appearance of armchair-quarterbacking, or sniping. It is not so intended... Also, please forgive if it appears to ramble...

I think what's been getting to me is the apparent "main-message" in support of this subsistence population (over some other) is in its "unique" social structure. The fact that they're poverty-stricken, and we might help, appears secondary to we should help them because of their "unique" matriarchal social structure. I suspect there are many populations within the world who are poverty-bound, even within China I doubt the Mosuo are unique in their level of poverty (if that is an ignorant statement, then I stand ready to be corrected).

I am curious if it's possible that their social-structure is less "structured" than we think it is. Isn't it possible that we're seeing more what we want to see than what might really be there? From what I read, they have evolved an efficient way to deal with the rigours of subsistence-living. You say there is no battle over property or children, yet there appears to be little enough to fight over! I would guess that survival tends to really focus your attention on the important stuff...

Further, the claims to this uniqueness are based upon apparently limited experience. With due respect, I don't view your contact (as described within this thread) with the Mosuo as extensive. Nor are you any longer a disinterested outside observer. Nothing wrong with being an insider, but it is generally viewed as creating a bias (which is virtually impossible to avoid as a human being, IMHO).

The fact the Priest was off to officiate at a marriage, which tradition no anthropologists were familiar with, speaks volumes to me about the paucity of information about this culture. Further, there is a fleeting reference to an "patriarchally-structured" nobility...?

None of the above is reason not to help the Mosuo in any way possible, and for that, Kudos to you and your Crew.

Outside of the tourism stuff, what is the next identified objective/project of the group? I did read all the stuff about goals and objectives, but I'm wondering what's happening tomorrow...?

Cheers and Best wishes

[Wolfman]

Wolfman, I can make no promises, but I may be able to get hold of some used (fairly low spec Celerons with no more than about 128M of sdram) Dell computers. If I can, can you use them? I don't know how I'd get them to you though as I'm very, very far from being wealthy & certainly couldn't afford to ship them to China.

If this seems to be a useless post, don't worry about it, I'll understand.
Lensman,

If you could get ahold of them, and find a way to get them to China, they'd most definitely be welcome. Question is whether or not we could find a way to keep the cost low enough to justify it. Let's talk about this more!

[Wolfman]

The Mosuo are lucky to have such an ardent and erudite supporter as yourself. What a challenging and wonderful journey upon which you appear to have embarked.

I have read this thread with great interest, and must admit to the most base human instinct of looking for the "catch" (which points to my flaws more glaringly than anything else). To steal a phrase, when something looks too good to be true etc.... This looks unbelievably good! Kudos to you for what appears to be a wonderful... everything...!Thanks!

And I've very happy that this thread has been resurrected again...I was afraid that all possible topics and questions had been covered so thoroughly that nobody would have anything else to ask, but you've come up with some brand new questions, and very relevant ones at that!
Please forgive if the following has the appearance of armchair-quarterbacking, or sniping. It is not so intended... Also, please forgive if it appears to ramble...

I think what's been getting to me is the apparent "main-message" in support of this subsistence population (over some other) is in its "unique" social structure. The fact that they're poverty-stricken, and we might help, appears secondary to we should help them because of their "unique" matriarchal social structure. I suspect there are many populations within the world who are poverty-bound, even within China I doubt the Mosuo are unique in their level of poverty (if that is an ignorant statement, then I stand ready to be corrected).I must admit here to a combination of idealism and pragmatism. The reasons for specifically choosing the Mosuo as a target are both simple, and complicated.

The 'simple' reason is that they just happened to be the minority that I chose to go and live with, and therefore wanted to help. If I'd gone to live in another minority group, its quite possible that I would have chosen to set up an organization to help that minority group.

But there are more complicated reasons, also. In the area where the Mosuo live, there are actually a number of different minorities, not just the Mosuo. They all face similar challenges in regards to poverty, education, cultural preservation, etc. The Mosuo are hardly unique in this regard.

And many of these minorities are fairly intermixed. When I talk about "Mosuo schools", these are schools that are in areas that are predominantly Mosuo, but also have students from other minority groups; helping those schools also benefits those other minorities. And likewise, there are schools in areas that are not predominantly Mosuo, but that have at least some Mosuo students. We likewise seek to help those schools under our "Mosuo" mandate, but this assistance benefits those other minorities even more.

If we were speaking in ideal terms, I'd like to set up an organization to help all of these minority groups. But realistically speaking, that is not feasible right now, for a number of reasons:

1) One of my main focuses, as stated before, is that the local people make all the decisions themselves about what their priorities are. It is complicated enough getting a consensus agreement within just the Mosuo leadership; if I were to be including leaders of other minority groups, it would become outright impossible. I would basically have to set up separate organizations for every minority, and I have neither the time nor the resources to do that right now.

2) If I expanded the scope of my existing organization to include other minorities, the required funds would be much higher, but I would not expect to have much higher income from donations. So anything we sought to do would become even more difficult to accomplish.

Then, there is the more pragmatic side of it. Because of the unique aspect of the Mosuo culture, they are, quite frankly, easier to 'sell'. I have to consider this from a business perspective -- I am seeking to get people to give money to me. I have to market my organization in a way that grabs their attention, and is attractive to them. The Mosuo are, in this aspect, and almost ideal 'product'...very easy to market. If I had started an identical thread about a different minority group, but one that had less distinctively unique traits, I'll guarantee that interest and responses from people here would have been less than they have with the Mosuo.

Now, in the long term, I do have more idealistic goals that extend beyond the Mosuo. It is my hope and belief that the efforts we are making to help the Mosuo will, directly or indirectly, also benefit peoples of other minorities who live in the same area. And it is my hop and belief that, by setting up a successful model of how to do this, that others will follow my example and set up similar organizations to help those other minorities more directly.
I am curious if it's possible that their social-structure is less "structured" than we think it is. Isn't it possible that we're seeing more what we want to see than what might really be there? From what I read, they have evolved an efficient way to deal with the rigours of subsistence-living. You say there is no battle over property or children, yet there appears to be little enough to fight over! I would guess that survival tends to really focus your attention on the important stuff...There's always a danger of idealizing the culture, or of overgeneralizing. I try to avoid that. There are some Mosuo who are quite well off and relatively affluent; there are some Mosuo who live in the most abject poverty I've ever witnessed (I met one family of 12 where almost all suffer from congenital deformities, and they live in a cave hollowed out from a clay hill, a total of maybe ten square meters for 12 people). Most fall somewhere in between.

In regards to survival, I should perhaps stress that the 'lack of competition' thing applies within families (and, to a slightly lesser degree, within small communities). But there's far less unanimity or lack of cooperation when you start talking about distinctively different Mosuo communities. In fact, the Mosuo on the Yunnan side of Lugu Lake identify themselves more with a Tibetan heritage, while those on the Sichuan side of the lake identify themselves more with a Mongolian heritage (there are complicated historic reasons for this). There's plenty of competition between these different communities, and in situations where resources become too limited, aggression and violence can certainly take place.
Further, the claims to this uniqueness are based upon apparently limited experience. With due respect, I don't view your contact (as described within this thread) with the Mosuo as extensive. Nor are you any longer a disinterested outside observer. Nothing wrong with being an insider, but it is generally viewed as creating a bias (which is virtually impossible to avoid as a human being, IMHO).I agree with you absolutely. I cannot be considered an unbiased commentator; nor can I be considered the most authoritative commentator. There are anthropologists who've done far more detailed study, and over a longer period of time, than I have.

I seek, wherever possible. to get confirmation of what I state both from Mosuo leaders, and from anthropologists who have worked with them. It gets more complicated in that, as these things go, neither the Mosuo nor anthropologists are ever able to agree 100% as to any description of their culture, or their situation. So I tend to adopt the "majority rule"...whatever perspective seems to be supported by the majority of people I talk to is the perspective that I will try to present.

I'm quite sure that there are at least some things that I've said here that some anthropologists who've worked with the Mosuo would disagree with, or at least consider not entirely accurate. And I'm quite sure that there are things I've said about the Mosuo that some Mosuo would find inaccurate or wrong.

I simply try to paint the big picture; ideally, those who do become interested because of the things that I've said here will go on to do more study of their own. Look for more information on the internet. Find some of the books that have been written about the Mosuo. Or even come over and visit the Mosuo for themselves.

I really consider myself more to be doing marketing, than to be actually representing the Mosuo people. If I'm successful in making more people aware of the Mosuo, and in getting them interested, then I've accomplished one of my key tasks. If it subsequently turns out that some of the things I said were wrong, or inaccurate, I will welcome corrections; but I'm confident that at least the broad picture that I describe is close enough to reality.
The fact the Priest was off to officiate at a marriage, which tradition no anthropologists were familiar with, speaks volumes to me about the paucity of information about this culture. Further, there is a fleeting reference to an "patriarchally-structured" nobility...?Yes, prior to the Communist revolution, the Mosuo operated on a feudal system that had an upper class, and a lower class. The upper class was patriarchal in structure, the lower class (peasants/serfs) was matriarchal in structure. When the Communists destroyed all feudal systems in China, they essentially eliminated the 'upper class'.

And certainly, there's still tons more to learn. That's one of the major reasons I do this. There have been several times within this discussion where people asked me questions that I could not answer, which in turn gave me fodder for more discussion and learning the next time I went back.
None of the above is reason not to help the Mosuo in any way possible, and for that, Kudos to you and your Crew.

Outside of the tourism stuff, what is the next identified objective/project of the group? I did read all the stuff about goals and objectives, but I'm wondering what's happening tomorrow...?

Cheers and Best wishesWell, the language project has, sadly, stalled for the time being. Until we can find new people and resources, doesn't look like anything's going to be happening there.

Our major focus right now is in two areas: one is scholarships for students (very low cost, and easy to manage), and the other is setting up skill training centers for young Mosuo girls.

We have just recently formed a partnership with The Mountain Fund (http://www.mountainfund.org/), a US-based NGO that focuses on development projects for people living in impoverished mountain areas around the world. The main advantage of this is that they can accept donations and grants on our behalf in the U.S. Many donors and organizations that are interested to help us have, in the past, been limited by the fact that we are registered only in China, and do not have any official non-profit status in the U.S. This partnership means that we'll be able to receive significantly greater financial support (once everything has been finalized).

[Lensman]

Wolfman, I'm sorry that I haven't kept you updated, but I've been trying to get my bosses to donate & ship those computers over to at least as far as China, but unless I arrange the shipping myself (ie, pay for it myself), they say they can't just give them to me to be shipped if/when I can get someone else to pay for it.

I'm truly sorry that I may have got your hopes up. :(

[Wolfman]

Wolfman, I'm sorry that I haven't kept you updated, but I've been trying to get my bosses to donate & ship those computers over to at least as far as China, but unless I arrange the shipping myself (ie, pay for it myself), they say they can't just give them to me to be shipped if/when I can get someone else to pay for it.

I'm truly sorry that I may have got your hopes up. :(Lensman,

That's okay...I'm used to getting my hopes built up, and then having them crushed mercilessly on the rocks of despair. ;) Just kidding...seriously, I appreciate the fact that you at least made the effort, and tried to make it happen. Most people wouldn't even go that far. And you understand a little better now some of the difficulties that I face, as well...its easy getting a good idea, but far more difficult bringing it to fruition.

Again, my thanks and my gratitude for your efforts!

[Wolfman]

And an update for anyone who may not have heard about this...on June 5, I will be giving a speech at the World Humanist Congress in Washington, D.C., to talk about my work with the Mosuo! This will be a really great opportunity to let a lot more people know about the Mosuo, and hopefully to get some of them involved.

[Orphia Nay]

Good luck at the conference, Wolfie. That's great news. I'm sure your speech will be as rational and compelling as your posts have been in this thread, if not more. I wish I could be there!

Kind regards,
Orph.

[Wolfman]

Seems about time for a *bump*

[Orphia Nay]

Seems about time for a *bump*

And a link to your thread "Major Life Upheaval" (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=122959).

[jhunter1163]

Bumping to move to SI&CE per request.

[Wolfman]

It's been quite some time since I made a post here (more than three years), so a quick update with some fairly exciting news.

The Mosuo, as I explained earlier in this post, are classified by the Chinese gov't as being part of another ethnic minority group, the Naxi, despite the fact they have very distinctively different languages, cultures, etc. The reasons for this were discussed earlier, but one of our organization's goals has been to try to get them officially recognized as a separate minority group.

This is important because the Chinese gov't provides funding for all of China's recognized minorities -- funding for education, health care, cultural preservation, etc. However, in the case of the Mosuo, no money is given to them...it is given to the Naxi. But the Naxi don't consider the Mosuo to be part of their minority group, so very little of it gets passed on to the Mosuo. If the Mosuo are recognized officially as a separate minority, then they will receive such funding directly.

We have, for the first time, been able to submit a legal petition to the gov't to have the Mosuo recognized as a distinct minority group in China. Such past submissions were simply rejected out of hand, this is the first time one has been accepted for consideration.

That doesn't mean it will succeed (it probably won't, I'd give it a less than 5% chance of being successful). There are a number of other groups in China that, like the Mosuo, feel they should be considered as separate minority groups. The moment the gov't demonstrates willingness to change the status of one group, they're gonna' face pressure from dozens of others to do likewise. It'd be opening a can of worms that the gov't doesn't want to deal with.

But...it is at least a big step forward that they've accepted the paperwork. It demonstrates that we at least have gained their attention, and that somewhere in the inner corridors of power, there is discussion taking place on this issue. It'll probably take another few decades before we actually get the changes we're looking for, but at least we've started (very tentatively) to move forward in that direction.