Question for Brits Re: 4th

[AmateurScientist]

Just curious. To any Brits, does Americans' revelry in its Independence Day seem disrespectful to England?

After all, Americans are celebrating their independence from England won over much bitter and violent struggle. There can be no doubt that we have patched things up very well since then, but is it a bit of rubbing salt in the wound? Is it a non-issue to Brits?

What about Canadians? To you, does our 4th of July register at all as something with which you can identify? Is it just a curiosity that takes place south of the border?

Thanks in advance to anyone kind enough to respond.

AS

[JamesM]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist
Is it a non-issue to Brits?


Not that I want to speak for all of Britain, but it is indeed a non-issue. If it got renamed "Whupping Britain's Ass Day", we'd probably get a bit shirty, but it was quite a long time ago and you can't really begrudge a nation celebrating the gaining of independence from the crown, can you? Particularly as we have managed it for ourselves yet...

[Nikk]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist
Just curious. To any Brits, does Americans' revelry in its Independence Day seem disrespectful to England?

After all, Americans are celebrating their independence from England won over much bitter and violent struggle. There can be no doubt that we have patched things up very well since then, but is it a bit of rubbing salt in the wound? Is it a non-issue to Brits?

What about Canadians? To you, does our 4th of July register at all as something with which you can identify? Is it just a curiosity that takes place south of the border?

Thanks in advance to anyone kind enough to respond.

AS

Well 230 or so years is quite a long time you know.

In that time I think we have fought almost everybody worth fighting on the planet at least once and we are on pretty good terms with most of them even if we did help ourselves to their countries for a while! So if they don't hold grudges why should we. To look at it another way, back in 1776 you were just a bunch of stroppy minded Brits on the other side of the ocean. So it was more a case of one highly motived army of Britons beating another less well motivated one.

So no, I don't think its a problem.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist
What about Canadians? To you, does our 4th of July register at all as something with which you can identify? Is it just a curiosity that takes place south of the border?


Not being from Detroit, I'm not surprised you don't know this, but the 4th of July culminates the Annual Detroit-Windsor International Freedom Festival (http://www.cbdfdestinationdetroit.org/main.cfm?edition_id=2&article=22) . US-Canadian relations are never stronger than at this time of year.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by JamesM


Not that I want to speak for all of Britain, but it is indeed a non-issue. If it got renamed "Whupping Britain's Ass Day", we'd probably get a bit shirty,

Not really. I think most Britons would rolleyes and say something like 'typical yanks, no sense of subtelty'.

It is indeed a non-issue.

However, I tend to view the spliting of the US from Britain as a tradegy, as indeed I view as a tradgedy the fact that Ireland isnt British. Not because I think that we have a god-given right to rule you but because we should/could be achieving so much more together.

I blame it on my ******** ancestors for being a bunch of pricks.

Mind you, I still think the American revolutionary's excuse for war was pretty thin.

[AmateurScientist]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

Mind you, I still think the American revolutionary's excuse for war was pretty thin.

Well, by now, it should be quite clear to you and your countrymen that we just don't care for your idea of tea.

We put ice in ours.

AS

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

However, I tend to view the spliting of the US from Britain as a tradegy, as indeed I view as a tradgedy the fact that Ireland isnt British. Not because I think that we have a god-given right to rule you but because we should/could be achieving so much more together.

Great! We can come over and start running things whenever you're ready... :wink:

[AmateurScientist]

Originally posted by Kodiak



Not being from Detroit, I'm not surprised you don't know this, but the 4th of July culminates the Annual Detroit-Windsor International Freedom Festival (http://www.cbdfdestinationdetroit.org/main.cfm?edition_id=2&article=22) . US-Canadian relations are never stronger than at this time of year.

Thanks. That's so cool. No, I had no idea.

Do they really do a big tug-of-war like that? That's hilarious. What's the score over time?

AS

[AmateurScientist]

Originally posted by JamesM


Not that I want to speak for all of Britain, but it is indeed a non-issue. If it got renamed "Whupping Britain's Ass Day", we'd probably get a bit shirty, but it was quite a long time ago and you can't really begrudge a nation celebrating the gaining of independence from the crown, can you? Particularly as we have managed it for ourselves yet...

Thanks. Well said.

You know, Americans really have no sense of reverence for the Queen. I have found that most Brits get uncomfortable with disrespectful or crude jokes made at her expense. We don't get that.

AS

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Kodiak


Great! We can come over and start running things whenever you're ready... :wink:

Starting with foreign policy?...... oh wait, thats already happened!


No seriously, I think you know what Im trying to say. I just think it would be better if the english-speaking nations of the world were/are more united.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist


Thanks. Well said.

You know, Americans really have no sense of reverence for the Queen. I have found that most Brits get uncomfortable with disrespectful or crude jokes made at her expense. We don't get that.

AS

I learned that the hard way while I was in the Army when I was tricked into slapping the bottom of a beer mug after emptying it, all within eye-shot of some Brit soldiers. Boy! Were they pissed! To this day, I don't know what was meant when I did that...

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

No seriously, I think you know what Im trying to say. I just think it would be better if the english-speaking nations of the world were/are more united.

I think we already are...

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist


Thanks. Well said.

You know, Americans really have no sense of reverence for the Queen. I have found that most Brits get uncomfortable with disrespectful or crude jokes made at her expense. We don't get that.

AS

Yes indeed. Only British people are allowed to make tasteless jokes about that grumpy old sow.

[Ian Osborne]

I've never met a Brit who's got a problem with 4th July celebrations. Perhaps that's because we've been invaded ourselves in the past, and therefore appreciate America's need to celebrate becoming a nation in its own right. Or maybe it's because we held, and gave back, so many colonies, it would be ridiculous to get annoyed with any of them, war of independence or not.

The French are often quite churlish about this sort of thing; a few years back complaints were made that a London railway station is called Waterloo, after a battle the French lost during the Napoleonic wars. Cheek - they have an Austerlitz station in Paris. The British found their objections pretty pathetic, and it would be just as pointless for us to complain about Independence Day.

[rikzilla]

All I can say is thank Ed that Wellington was too young to have been in command during the revolution. I doubt he would have blundered as Cornwallis did. Even so, earlier in the war Cornwallis won several victories over Washington, and captured Philadelphia.

It's practically a miracle that we defeated the British. I think that's what makes the 4th of July so sweet! That, and the Olympic Gold Medal in Hockey back in '80. Sweet stuff! :wink:

-zilla

[KillerBob]

In Houston, the big Independence Day concert and fireworks are sponsored by BP (British Petroleum).

I guess they can't be too upset anymore.

Then again, the headliner is Kenny Loggins, so maybe they are still pissed off! ;)

[Mike B.]

So much for our military prowess during the war.

General Howe, Clinton, and Cornwallis won just about every battle they fought against the colonists.

We had a few small victories at Trenton, Princeton, and Cowpens.

General Burgyone's relatively small force had to surrender at Sartatoga because General Howe went and captured Philadelphia instead of marching north to meet him as his orders were.

But it was the big victory at Yorktown that was made possible by the French fleet and Army that brought the war to a close.

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by Ian Osborne
I've never met a Brit who's got a problem with 4th July celebrations. Perhaps that's because we've been invaded ourselves in the past, and therefore appreciate America's need to celebrate becoming a nation in its own right. Or maybe it's because we held, and gave back, so many colonies, it would be ridiculous to get annoyed with any of them, war of independence or not.

The French are often quite churlish about this sort of thing; a few years back complaints were made that a London railway station is called Waterloo, after a battle the French lost during the Napoleonic wars. Cheek - they have an Austerlitz station in Paris. The British found their objections pretty pathetic, and it would be just as pointless for us to complain about Independence Day.

Hmmm interesting,
Are they mad about Trafalgar square?

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist
Just curious. To any Brits, does Americans' revelry in its Independence Day seem disrespectful to England?

After all, Americans are celebrating their independence from England won over much bitter and violent struggle. There can be no doubt that we have patched things up very well since then, but is it a bit of rubbing salt in the wound? Is it a non-issue to Brits?

What about Canadians? To you, does our 4th of July register at all as something with which you can identify? Is it just a curiosity that takes place south of the border?

Thanks in advance to anyone kind enough to respond.

AS

as a British born Canadian citizen

The 4th of July is not disrepectful in my view.

A non issue for me. I have been in United States on two occassions and observed July 4th celebrations on both occassions. The enthusiasm of Americans delighted me. I don't know if most Americans at the time (this was the Reagan/Bush I years) were just doing it as an excuse to party, or if they were celebrating their freedoms and socio/political experiement.

Perhaps events since 9/11 have had an impact on how ID4 is celebrated. How about it Americans... do tell if ID4 has more significance now than pre- 9/11 and why?

[Leif Roar]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist


Thanks. Well said.

You know, Americans really have no sense of reverence for the Queen. I have found that most Brits get uncomfortable with disrespectful or crude jokes made at her expense. We don't get that.

AS

Not to speak for the British, but I would suppose it's akin to the reverence some US citizens have towards their flag.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe


Perhaps events since 9/11 have had an impact on how ID4 is celebrated. How about it Americans... do tell if ID4 has more significance now than pre- 9/11 and why?

It does for me. I don't know about most people. Overall, it still means a long weekend, camping, getting out on the beach, etc..but I'd like to believe that Americans are a little more sensitive to the holiday's meaning now, after 9/11, than previously.

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by Leif Roar


Not to speak for the British, but I would suppose it's akin to the reverence some US citizens have towards their flag.

Almost identical, I think, as symbols.

And yet, if she falls to the ground, they aren't required to burn her, which I see as an improvement.

NA

[LillyThePink]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger


Almost identical, I think, as symbols.

And yet, if she falls to the ground, they aren't required to burn her, which I see as an improvement.

NA

Not necessarily, NA ;)

Non-issue.... typical Americans though, thinking everything is about them.....

;)

[Tony]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


No seriously, I think you know what Im trying to say. I just think it would be better if the english-speaking nations of the world were/are more united.


Have you heard of the Anglosphere?

if so

What do you think of it?

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist


Thanks. Well said.

You know, Americans really have no sense of reverence for the Queen. I have found that most Brits get uncomfortable with disrespectful or crude jokes made at her expense. We don't get that.

AS
I think you might find it's because those Brits would prefer to be making the disrespectful and crude jokes! The issue of the monarchy is fairly controversial, and not all of us stand up when the BBC plays the national anthem at the end of the day's broadcasting.

What I don't get is the infatuation that some Americans I know have for Princess Diana. Is this a common thing?

Originally posted by Leif Roar
Not to speak for the British, but I would suppose it's akin to the reverence some US citizens have towards their flag.
Apart from the fact that the US flag is something distinctly American, and the Queen is distinctly... German ;), yes, some of us would be happy to see her tied to a flagpole! :D

[Flo]

Originally posted by Ian Osborne
The French are often quite churlish about this sort of thing; a few years back complaints were made that a London railway station is called Waterloo, after a battle the French lost during the Napoleonic wars. Cheek - they have an Austerlitz station in Paris. The British found their objections pretty pathetic, and it would be just as pointless for us to complain about Independence Day.



Well, we are still really surprised that so many of your streets and monuments are named after defeats ....







(ours ;) )

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Tony



Have you heard of the Anglosphere?

if so

What do you think of it?

Yes i downloaded the 'anglosphere primer' and got about 3 paragraphs in before I started snoring.

I agree with the principle.

[JamesM]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist

You know, Americans really have no sense of reverence for the Queen. I have found that most Brits get uncomfortable with disrespectful or crude jokes made at her expense. We don't get that.

As other British posters have said, I think this just comes down to knee-jerk defenciveness. It's alright for us to slag her off (and we do), but we don't want Johnny Foreigner telling us how rubbish she is, and by extension how rubbish we are. In the former case, she's an over-privileged German harridan. In the latter case, she's an over-privileged German harridan, but she's our over-privileged German harridan, so hands off!

You can see a similar sort of wagon-circling happen on this forum whenever someone criticises the actions of another country. Due to the demographics here (and recent history), this happens the most with the US, but I don't think Americans are uniquely sensitive in this regard.

Happy Independence Day to you Yanks, by the way!

edited for spelling

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Jon_in_London:
However, I tend to view the spliting of the US from Britain as a tradegy, as indeed I view as a tradgedy the fact that Ireland isnt British.

Ireland isn't British because Ireland is actually Irish. I'm glad we split from the UK when we did. I'd hate if we'd become a whiney leftist provincial irrelevance like Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. We can achieve plenty together without reinstating the Act of Union.

[The Thrasher]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe


Perhaps events since 9/11 have had an impact on how ID4 is celebrated. How about it Americans... do tell if ID4 has more significance now than pre- 9/11 and why?

I think the 4th has become more signifigant to most of us since Sept. 11th. After the cold war was over I think we forgot how dangerous the world was. Bin Laden reminded us. Once again we are a nation at war and our troops are in harm's way. It's hard not to rally around the flag at such times.

Also, I would just like to say cheers to the Brits who have posted so far. In a world where so many people seem to get offended at the drop of the hat you are proof that good humor and mutual understanding are alive and well.


"...I may be drunk, but you are ugly and in the morning I will be sober" Winston Churchill

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Yes i downloaded the 'anglosphere primer' and got about 3 paragraphs in before I started snoring.

I agree with the principle.

LOL! I was going to link to it, and say that I couldn't bring myself to read it all, but that you might find it interesting. I generally enjoy reading Bennett's columns, though.

I prefer the definition of 'anglosphere' that counts nations on the basis of a common-law tradition, rather than the English language.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Shane Costello


[...]whiney leftist provincial irrelevance like Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland[...]

:roll: Shane, I've got to hand it to you, you do come out with some crackers!

[shuize]

So, what does it mean to slap the bottom of your beer mug when finished? I ask as I am currently living abroad and would enjoy the opportunity to rile some british types.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by shuize
So, what does it mean to slap the bottom of your beer mug when finished? I ask as I am currently living abroad and would enjoy the opportunity to rile some british types.
I've seen slamming the glass down on the table; I've seen turning the glass upside down on top of your head, I've seen slamming the top of someone's bottle to make it foam, but I ain't never seen or heard of this one!

But if you want to annoy Brits, call the Welsh and Scottish English, call everyone else Europeans, and ask the very first Briton you speak to if they know any of the Beatles.

And make sure your medical insurance is up-to-date! :D

[KelvinG]

In Vancouver, a July 4th weekend for the US simply means a lot more Washingtonians will be up here over the next few days.

Other than that the day has never meant much. Our national holiday is on July 1st, so the 4th is mostly irrelevant.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by shuize
So, what does it mean to slap the bottom of your beer mug when finished? I ask as I am currently living abroad and would enjoy the opportunity to rile some british types.

:confused: no idea.

[Doubt]

The American Revolution had a great deal of support from inside the UK. I don’t think the supporters were in the majority. I wonder how many of them had been supporters of the Jacobite cause?

Also I would not be surprised to find out that many of the problems were caused by having a succession of amateurs on the throne. George III was the first of the hanoverians to really speak English. The epidemics that preceded the Germans taking the throne could not have provided for good continuity of government and led to poor decisions about those far of colonies.





(Note, all ideas above are pulled out of the depths of my memory. The old man was a history teacher. Guess what our dinner conversations tend to be about…….)

[Tony]

Didnt George III eventually go mad? I remember reading somewhere that he once named a pillow Prince Octavian.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Kodiak


I learned that the hard way while I was in the Army when I was tricked into slapping the bottom of a beer mug after emptying it, all within eye-shot of some Brit soldiers. Boy! Were they pissed! To this day, I don't know what was meant when I did that...

That's a new one on me. Perhaps they just fancied a fight ;)

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Tony
Didnt George III eventually go mad? I remember reading somewhere that he once named a pillow Prince Octavian.
No, that was the sequel; it's George II you're thinking of.

[richardm]

Originally posted by BillyTK

No, that was the sequel; it's George II you're thinking of.

None of them were a patch on "George IV - A New Hope" though.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by BillyTK

No, that was the sequel; it's George II you're thinking of.

I thought it was George III as well. Isnt that why the Price Regent was a Prince regent before becoming G-IV?


George III was also having trouble with his high-spirited eldest son, George, Prince of Wales. On 5th November, 1788, the king attacked the Prince of Wales and tried to smash his head against the wall. One observer claimed that foam was coming from the king's mouth and his eyes were so bloodshot that they looked like current jelly. George was placed in a straight-jacket and eventually his doctors had a special iron chair made to restrain their patient. Other treatment included putting poultices of Spanish Fly and mustard all over the King's body; the idea was that the painful blisters which resulted would draw out the "evil humours". By April 1789, George's doctors came to the conclusion that he had recovered from his madness and he was allowed to carry on with his royal duties.


http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRgeorgeIII.htm

[richardm]

Originally posted by shuize
So, what does it mean to slap the bottom of your beer mug when finished? I ask as I am currently living abroad and would enjoy the opportunity to rile some british types.

I've been having a look around, and in Australia, apparently, putting your glass upside down when it's empty is an indication that you're ready for a fight.

Whether this is because it's symbolic of smashing the glass ready to drive it into somebody's face, or whether anything is an indication that you're ready for a fight in an Australian bar, I don't know.

But I still can't find anything on slapping the bottom of beer mugs in order to insult the Queen. It could just be a weird regimental thing - the army has lots of those.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


I thought it was George III as well. Isnt that why the Price Regent was a Prince regent before becoming G-IV?

I was thinking of that apocryphal story that "The Madness of King George III" was retitled "The Madness of King George" for US release because when it first opened in the US people demanded to know when the previous films had been released.

Yes it was George III and I am sorry for being naughty.

[heath]

Originally posted by richardm


I've been having a look around, and in Australia, apparently, putting your glass upside down when it's empty is an indication that you're ready for a fight.


New one to me.

Turning your glass upside down, or on it's side if you are sitting at the bar in a pub (as you do in old fashioned Aussie pubs) it's a sign the barmaid/barman that you don't want another drink. Normally they keep getting you a fresh one when you finish the last. Generally you leave your cash on the bar and they just take what the drink costs.

We drink either "middies" or "schooners" in Aus which is basically about 1/2 pint or 2/3 of pint. Small glasses to stop the frigidly cold Aussie beer getting warm while you drink it. And almost all australian beers are lagers but we call them bitters. Go figure.

Don't you just love these little cross culture education sessions? :D

[richardm]

Originally posted by heath


New one to me.

Turning your glass upside down, or on it's side if you are sitting at the bar in a pub (as you do in old fashioned Aussie pubs) it's a sign the barmaid/barman that you don't want another drink. Normally they keep getting you a fresh one when you finish the last. Generally you leave your cash on the bar and they just take what the drink costs.



What?! Are you trying to tell me that something I read on the Internet isn't true? :p

Interesting about the 2/3 of a pint glasses, though! And that bit about calling all your lagers bitters. Fancy that!


Don't you just love these little cross culture education sessions? :D

Fascinating, yes. If I ever go to Australia, I will now know that the barman is not trying to start a fight when he offers me a schooner of beer...

(In this country a schooner is a type of glass that you'd serve sherry in!)

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by BillyTK

No, that was the sequel; it's George II you're thinking of.

George III actually had a son named Octavian (one of his 15 or so, as I recall). The Prince died relatively young and was a big tradgedy for George and Queen Charlotte -- not the most loving of parents, inspite of their brood, but who I recall reading had a particular fondness for that particular son. George did go "mad" or at least what was understood to be "mad" at the time. I think the current thinking now is that it was the result of a disease rather than emotionally based or a chemical imbalance...Prophyria, I think?

He spent the last 15 to twenty years of his life, blind and confined to rooms at Windsor and Kew...thus the Regency Period of George later George IV.

George, till his disease incapacitated him, wasn't a "bad" king or incompetent. He was caught in a changing world...he certainly was more successful than his French counterpart Louis XVI.

Also, If I am not mistaken cost and France played no small role in our Indipendence. France was involved for the sake of sticking a finger in the British eyes, and the Brits gave in, eventually, not because they couldn't win on the battlerfield, but because of the cost of maintaining and shipping an appropriate force to control the Americas...

Someting we may have to learn about Iraq?

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by Shane Costello


Ireland isn't British because Ireland is actually Irish. I'm glad we split from the UK when we did. I'd hate if we'd become a whiney leftist provincial irrelevance like Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. We can achieve plenty together without reinstating the Act of Union.

From a country that doesn't even allow abortion that's pretty rich...

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland:
From a country that doesn't even allow abortion that's pretty rich...

Shaun,

My comments about Scotland and other parts of the UK were unwarranted. I withdraw them unreservedly.

FYI abortion is allowed in Ireland. It's in the constitution. It's just it hasn't been legislated for. Confused? Well that's the Irish process in action! :confused:

So no, I needn't feel too smug. Sorry again.

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by Shane Costello


Shaun,

My comments about Scotland and other parts of the UK were unwarranted. I withdraw them unreservedly.

FYI abortion is allowed in Ireland. It's in the constitution. It's just it hasn't been legislated for. Confused? Well that's the Irish process in action! :confused:

So no, I needn't feel too smug. Sorry again.

Fair do's. Feel free to have a go at the spiralling costs of the Scottish Parliament building though. What a truly momentous balls-up has been made of that one...:eek:

[Captain_Snort]

Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland


Fair do's. Feel free to have a go at the spiralling costs of the Scottish Parliament building though. What a truly momentous balls-up has been made of that one...:eek:

They should have got the some cowboy Irish builders in....

(I am half Irish)

anyway, back to the topic, how are you yanks getting along without us (To quote from the great escape)

[Drifterman]

I have no issue with Americans celebrating the 4th of July. I think the American revolution was one of the most beneficial historical events ever, not least because it produced the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution (amongst other things).

Off the top of my head, I can think of no more important documents ever written.

The American revolution is important because it was, and remains, a successful revolution - a revolution that didn't dissolve into a grotesque cult of personality or a reign of terror. Sadly, this fine example has been reproduced all too infrequently.

The only bad thing about Independence Day is the horrible movie starring Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum (but that belongs in another thread...)