What's up with the "WTC Hard Drive" story?

[ref]

I happened to search through the new Steven Jones site, and I came up with this old story, that he still posts in his site. It is about the secret money transactions in WTC minutes before collapse. The story goes like this.

"The CONVAR data salvage has made it completely clear that more than $100 million in insider credit card transactions took place in the hours and minutes before the twin towers collapsed. The mainframe computers in the towers processed these transactions; and the credit card data would have been lost forever had it not been for the successful data reconstruction of the CONVAR specialists.

A German company, CONVAR of Pirmasens near the French border, was given more than 400 computer hard drives from the wreckage of the World Trade Center. These are extremely sensitive computer components that went through the collapse of the World Trade Center. Using blue laser technology, CONVAR succeeded in reconstructing all the data from the computer debris.This includes diverse financial data and telecommunication protocols up to a few seconds before the collapse of each tower."

There is something very strange with this story.

I work in a bank, so I know a few things about money transactions. There are some basic rules, that always apply to any transaction.

1. They leave a trace.

The trace is not computer dependant. You can destroy a hundred computer hard drives and it doesn't matter. The trace is in the main frame. Only if you destroy a main computer base of a Financial institution, you could destroy the trace on that end of the transaction.

2. The trace is seen at both end of the transaction.

You can destroy all the mainframe computers you want from the sender's end of the line, if the receivers main frame computers are still intact. The trace is left on both the payer's financial institutions main frame, and the receiver's financial institution's main frame.


So what are the problems with this story then?

1. What kind of financial institution would keep their mainframe computer database in an office building? Financial main frames are kept in the most secure places, usually deep underground to avoid any effect on them by any disaster. Otherwise any office fire or water leakage could destroy the entire database and lose millions and billions.

2. Suppose the main frame from which the money transactions were made actually was located in WTC. The receiver's main frame would certainly not be in the WTC. If the receiver's main frame was also in the WTC, it would also have been destroyed. And there would be no $100 millions dollars left. So if there were trasactions, the receiver end most certainly is still very intact. Otherwise it would make no sense to make transactions to a main frame known to become destroyed in the next moment.

The thing is. At least one of the two main frame computers needed to trace the transfers must still exist and be intact. Otherwise there would be no profit from any transaction of that kind. So the transactions are traceable. They have not just vanished. Of course it is difficult to trace, but there is an existing trace, if there has been any such activity. The trace is not dependant on a single hard drive. It is dependant on the whole process throughout the transaction.

And still. Who keeps a critical main frame worth hundreds of millions in an office building?

[Firestone]

I'm glad you posted this.

I've never understood this story, but tought is was me ...

Also, please don't tell CTist about backups in another physical location. Doesn't exist in woowooland ...

[FramerDave]

Using blue laser technology, CONVAR succeeded in reconstructing all the data from the computer debris.This includes diverse financial data and telecommunication protocols up to a few seconds before the collapse of each tower."



Why? Unless I'm sadly mistaken, computer hard drives are magnetic, relying on varying magnetic fields to record data. How or why would a blue laser, or any laser for that matter, be able to read a hard drive?

[A W Smith]

Even the less important but critical business data for the other common tenants of the WTC is typically backed up daily off site. Just seems like another one of those lies Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown_Massacre) makes up to gain a following. If they believe that. Then theres an agricultural center (http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/AboutJonestown/Gallery/G3/pages/JT-1979-08.htm)with loudspeakers, living quarters and a radio tower in Guyana that he will sell you that hasn't been used in 28 years.

[Gravy]

We know every part of this story is false, because everything in the towers was pulveratomized to minimicron dimensions. Just how hard do these people think those so-called hard drives were: harder than the four indestructable aircraft black boxes that were nonetheless smithereenitated to sub-sub-quark invisibleness?

Dubya wudn't satisfied after breaking every law in America, so he had to go and break the laws of physics!

[Oliver]

I heard in an interview that they were able to recover most
of the Data but of course, they were not able to talk about
the details since it was under investigation:

I found it:

mms://stream.convar.com/high_heute.asf
http://www.convar.com/default.htm?Language=1

[bonavada]

"The CONVAR data salvage has made it completely clear that more than $100 million in insider credit card transactions took place in the hours and minutes before the twin towers collapsed....."

i daren't ask if there is a source for the above statement by jones or whoever huh?
i would like to see the salvaged data that made it "completely clear" about the "insider" transactions. what are the odds that the data doesn't reveal any such thing. or it's just the endless game of chinese whispers these nuts take part in.
on another tack, the fact that 400+ hdd's were recovered puts paid to the "completely pulverised" assertions as well.

BV

[A W Smith]

holy ganole. I stumbled upon another woowoo conspiracy. new thread time

[Oliver]

Are the investigations still in progress about the transactions?

[CurtC]

I don't doubt that Convar could use blue lasers to help get the data off hard disks, and I don't doubt that they actually were hired to recover hard disks from the WTC. Lasers can be used in conjunction with magnetic recording, and their use in reading wouldn't surprise me. I don't believe, though, that this data recovery shows $100M in insider trading (on credit cards?!?), nor that the transactions would depend on those hard drives to trace.

[Gravy]

Why? Unless I'm sadly mistaken, computer hard drives are magnetic, relying on varying magnetic fields to record data. How or why would a blue laser, or any laser for that matter, be able to read a hard drive?I have no idea how it works, but Convar did develop a blue laser scanner that can recover data from magnetic hard drives. That's why they (a German company) got the data recovery contract.

[JimBenArm]

Dubya wudn't satisfied after breaking every law in America, so he had to go and break the laws of physics!

186,000 miles per second. It's not just a good idea, it's the law!

[A W Smith]

sometimes I feel like we are teachers locked within a creative writing class. Trying futilely to teach the students what is possible in a fiction script and what is not even plausible. Like its a challenge for them to come up with some creative work around for the road blocks we put in their story's. Its as if they are writing scripts they will eventually sell for some sci-fi or drama series we are gonna see on CBS in like five years once they get all the bugs worked out. Has Dylan accidentally created his own on line flunky film school?

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

i daren't ask if there is there is a source for the above statement by jones or whoever huh?
i would like to see the salvaged data that made it "completely clear" about the "insider" transactions. what are the odds that the data doesn't reveal any such thing. or it's just the endless game of chinese whispers these nuts take part in.
on another tack, the fact that 400+ hdd's were recovered puts paid to the "completely pulverised" assertions as well.

BV
It is incredibly telling that someone like Jones can come out with a fantastic story like this, and have it incorporated into the Truther's body of 'evidence'. Much like how the Truthers allow their bias to fuel their 9/11 conspiracy fantasy, they give people like Jones a free ride never assuming that he could be outright lying.

Who here gets that kind of free ride? Gravy certainly doesn't; even Randi doesn't. That says an awful lot.

[FramerDave]

I have no idea how it works, but Convar did develop a blue laser scanner that can recover data from magnetic hard drives. That's why they (a German company) got the data recovery contract.

Oh, well okey dokey then. With my admittedly limited knowledge of such things it sounded fishy and just the sort of thing jones would pull out of his arse.

A skeptic will admit he's wrong and thank you for the new knowledge. How many times have we seen a CT do the same?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

"The CONVAR data salvage has made it completely clear that more than $100 million in insider credit card transactions took place in the hours and minutes before the twin towers collapsed. [...]"
Within minutes of the collapse? So, some number of transactions took place after the attack was underway and the whole of the U.S. knew about it.

Does it seem more sane to anyone else to think that these transactions were merely an "Oh, crap. I have money in those businesses..." response rather than a pre-meditated conspiracy?

[jhunter1163]

How many millions of dollars in credit card transactions were processed in that amount of time on September 10th? Was $100 million remarkable, given that these transactions were taking place in the heart of the world's financial district? I'd like a standard for comparison, please...

[defaultdotxbe]

Within minutes of the collapse? So, some number of transactions took place after the attack was underway and the whole of the U.S. knew about it.

Does it seem more sane to anyone else to think that these transactions were merely an "Oh, crap. I have money in those businesses..." response rather than a pre-meditated conspiracy?
on top of that, these were taking place while power was out in the towers, those crafty conspirators

[apathoid]

:confused:

Why bother with a measly 100 million anyhow, they successfully made away with 180 trillion dollars of gold bullion.... those cunning, clever, yet unbeliebably retarded perps.

[beachnut]

100 million dollars in insider credit card transactions! What does it mean?

Let look at this! I plotted 9/11 so when the attacks are underway I charge up and order 10,000,000 SACD/DVD-Audio/CDs/DVDs etc.

Wow; all records of my transaction are destroyed I just got 10 million disc for nothing!!!!!!!

Oops CD Universe called to day they want 100 million dollars now!

What did I forget to do? (what woowoo makes up this junk?!)

[ref]

This story really adds up to nothing. Here is how it's presented on the Steven Jones site:

Pre-Attack Transactions on WTC Computers

Reuters reported that credit card transactions which may have amounted to more than $100 million were processed by computers in the Twin Towers in the minutes before the planes crashed on 9/11/01.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/industry/12/20/wtc.harddrives.idg/ (http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/industry/12/20/wtc.harddrives.idg/)

That story really has nothing to it. It just says they were suspicious transactions (and the link itself doesn't even mention credit cards). Investment institutions and banks invest multiple times those amounts of money on a daily bases. Why were those claimed transactions at all suspicious?

This story then talks about credit cards.

http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/transactions.html

And even that story says nothing about why they were suspicious. Unless they directly profited from the attacks, there is nothing suspicious about them. And there is no claim of any profit to have been made.

That added to the points made in the opening post and other posts here, we can easily conclude that this is just another desperate paragraph in the CT world.

[MikeW]

This story really adds up to nothing. Here is how it's presented on the Steven Jones site:

Pre-Attack Transactions on WTC Computers

Reuters reported that credit card transactions which may have amounted to more than $100 million were processed by computers in the Twin Towers in the minutes before the planes crashed on 9/11/01.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/industry/12/20/wtc.harddrives.idg/ (http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/industry/12/20/wtc.harddrives.idg/)
I love that "may" have amounted... With no explanation as to what is suspicious or not, it all adds up to not very much.

Also, if this were credit card transactions, then how many cards would it take to create that kind of volume? If each one had a $10,000 credit limit, say, then you'd need to max out 10,000 cards to reach the magic $100 million figure. Something of a logistics problem...

[ref]

Also, if this were credit card transactions, then how many cards would it take to create that kind of volume? If each one had a $10,000 credit limit, say, then you'd need to max out 10,000 cards to reach the magic $100 million figure. Something of a logistics problem...

Actually the credit card thing doesn't make this logistically hard to commit. Banks can charge credit cards without the actual cards (actually what are charged are the accounts that are connected to a credit card), by simply inputting the credit card number to the systems. The system then finds the account connected with that credit card number and charges the inputted amount from that account.

Also the limits are alterable. All you need is a bad guy in a bank, changing the limit amount connected to certain accounts by simply inputting a new limit.

So in theory it could happen like this:

A bad guy is using a financial institutions computer possibly anywhere in New York City, or US. That computer is connected to the financial institutions main frame, that would be located in the WTC (like bank branch offices are connected to a central computer located somewhere else).

Then:

a) The bad guy knows credit card numbers, that are connected to bank accounts that have a lot of money in them.

b) The bad guy then changes the limits on those accounts, so he doesn't have to make 10 000 card number inputs and charges.

c) The bad guy makes those money transfers.

d) The bad guy hopes, that the central main frame computer of the financial institution he used to tranfer the money, is completely destroyed in the WTC. Otherwise there would be a trace directly connecting him to the tranfers in the main frame.

e) There still is a trace in the receiver's end of the transfer. He then must hope, that the institution receiving the money doesn't suspect any suspicious activity and start looking into them, directly conneting him to the transfers.

f) The bad guy must then hope, that the financial institution he used to transfer the money, doesn't have a backup of their main frame located somewhere else. Otherwise angry credit card owners and the financial institution could directly trace the transfers back to him.


So the bad guy has a lot to worry about. And why on earth would he use credit card charges. That makes the whole event only much more complicated.

The simpliest solution to this is, that there is nothing at all criminal happening in this story.

[MikeW]

Actually the credit card thing doesn't make this logistically hard to commit...
I know what you're saying, although it might not be as simple as that. But anyway, you're right, it's the traces that are important. They make it too risky an idea. Although I suppose people who believe that 9/11 wouldn't have worked unless the towers collapsed probably don't have the best understanding of risk and reward, so it's no real surprise they don't notice the problems here, either.

[ref]

I know what you're saying, although it might not be as simple as that. But anyway, you're right, it's the traces that are important. They make it too risky an idea. Although I suppose people who believe that 9/11 wouldn't have worked unless the towers collapsed probably don't have the best understanding of risk and reward, so it's no real surprise they don't notice the problems here, either.

Yes, the point was that you don't need 10 000 actual credit cards to commit that. And you don't have to be physically in the WTC.

It's not that simple anyway you are right, I just described the main procedures that would in theory be needed to commit anything remotely like that. For example, the money is not at all always credited to other institution's account at the very moment a transaction is made. There is float time etc. If you would be making transactions few minutes before collapse, you probably would get nothing out of it. Just one of the numerous problems had someone done anything criminal.

But there is no sense in the story anyway.