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Unfit4Command
25th January 2007, 10:02 AM
What exactly does the "Truth Movement" think the damaged lobbies in the World Trade Center's are signs of?
Demolition charges and explosives are what I usually hear, but let's think about this for a second..

First, demolition charges in the lobby would be pointless since the buildings both fell from the point of impact.
Second, what kind of weak demolition charges were they?! The only damage to the lobbies were broken windows and a few marble panels knocked off the walls. Does that sound anything like the damage a demolition charge would cause? No support structures in the lobbies that I know of were damaged, unless you consider windows support.

The most common non-conspiracy answer for the damaged lobbies is that jet fuel free fell down the elevator shafts and ignited fires in the lobbies. Yeah, I'm sure some of that happened, but I haven't seen many people mention what else could have fallen down the elevator shafts. Plane debris, building debris, the elevators themselves, etc... Imagine the shock of an elevator along with jet fuel, and debris free-falling and crashing down on the ground floor. Wouldn't that be enough to break windows, and knock a few marble panels off the walls in the lobby, and even cause some noise in the basements that sound like explosives?
I just don't understand why bombs have to be the only explaination for pretty much everything when it comes to the "Truth Movement."

Anti-sophist
25th January 2007, 11:50 AM
Similar logic can be applied to the CTers who like to quote the reports of seismic anomalies before the impacts of the planes. You would ask... why? What was the point of setting off bombs an hour before the collapse?

You are falling for a common fallacy used by academics and other ivory tower eggheads. You are "hypothesis forming". Real investigators don't worry about how things fit together into a larger picture. Real investigators try to find anomalies with a particular theory, and then once they find things they consider anomalous, that gives the necessary groundwork to ignore the theory altogether and insert their preferred model. Note, real investigators can do this even when their preferred models suffer from the same "anomalies" they were bringing up. That's advanced investigation techniques, though, only for professionals with bullhorns.

My "anomalies" do not need to be internally consistent. They just need to be "anomalies". Once I have "anomalies" that means I am right and you are wrong. Thought process complete.

Gravy
25th January 2007, 12:30 PM
This should help you in your arguments with the deniers.
(http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1907291#post1907291)

Brainster
25th January 2007, 10:27 PM
Regarding fireballs, in 1982 a gas tanker crashed and leaked gas in the Caldecott Tunnel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caldecott_Tunnel_fire). As it happened the tanker was near the mid-point of the tunnel and the resulting fireball (which did not occur immediately) killed 6 people. The tunnel was over a kilometer in length, or about 3200 feet. The tiles and grout were damaged and spalled at the entrance of the tunnel, some 1700 feet away. A memorable photograph showed one of the pickup trucks destroyed by the fire; all that was left of it was the radiator.

Coritani
26th January 2007, 03:08 AM
This should help you in your arguments with the deniers.
(http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1907291#post1907291)

Jesus. Some of those are horrifying.

Andúril
26th January 2007, 05:43 AM
First, demolition charges in the lobby would be pointless since the buildings both fell from the point of impact.
Second, what kind of weak demolition charges were they?! The only damage to the lobbies were broken windows and a few marble panels knocked off the walls. Does that sound anything like the damage a demolition charge would cause? No support structures in the lobbies that I know of were damaged, unless you consider windows support.
And that's because steel is flexible. Note that the windows broke and marble panels cracked at the same instant when the plane hit the tower. That's because the impact made the steel tower to bend a little (actually several meters), which caused much stress to the base. Because marble and glass aren't so flexible, they simply cracked.

And if there would have been charges in the lobby, a blast wave that would break windows and marble would also have knocked out and deafened most people in the lobby. This, however, didn't happen.

To conspiracy theorists, bombs are similar as the omnipotent "goddidit" -explanation for creationists: the only explanation they can understand with their notably low IQ.