Is Taiwan a country?

[Drifterman]

OK, as you can probably guess, this is an issue of great importance where I live.

So I ask all here: Is Taiwan a country, or a province of China?

Should the international community support the Taiwanese Democratic People's Party (DPP) in its efforts to introduce a referendum on declaring independence from China?

Or should the rest of the world ignore Taiwan's precarious position, and hope that China doesn't make good on its threat to wash Taiwan in blood should it ever declare itself independent.

Does capitalist lust at the thought of access China's (potentially) huge market outweigh love of the democratic principle? Is kow-towing to the Dragon more important than the right of the Taiwanese people to be fully accepted members of the international community?

Does anyone find Chinese bullying offensive?

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by Drifterman
OK, as you can probably guess, this is an issue of great importance where I live.

So I ask all here: Is Taiwan a country, or a province of China?

Should the international community support the Taiwanese Democratic People's Party (DPP) in its efforts to introduce a referendum on declaring independence from China?

Or should the rest of the world ignore Taiwan's precarious position, and hope that China doesn't make good on its threat to wash Taiwan in blood should it ever declare itself independent.

Does capitalist lust at the thought of access China's (potentially) huge market outweigh love of the democratic principle? Is kow-towing to the Dragon more important than the right of the Taiwanese people to be fully accepted members of the international community?

Does anyone find Chinese bullying offensive?

Interesting issue, with many practical, political, economic, and ideolgical considerations.

Non of the G7 countries, to my knowledge, have recognised Taiwan's sovereignty. Taiwan is a prosperous sovereign nation in many ways, except for in terms of official recognition. "Taiwan" has yet to be represented at Olympic games.



Taiwan (http://duke.usask.ca/~ss_tsa/en/abt_taiwan.htm)

[corplinx]

Taiwan is whatever the government and Taiwan say it is as far as I am concerned. The west agrees, we just don't go blurting it out much since we are trying to slowly corrupt China with western ideals and don't want setbacks.

[Blue Monk]

To anyone who truly believes in the principle of a people's right to self-determination there can only be one answer.

Yes, Taiwan is, or at least should be a country.

China's claim that Taiwan is a province may have historical merit but is, in my opinion, irrelevant if it is contrary to the desires of the people of Taiwan, which of course it is.

China's claim is no more valid that Iraq's claim that Kuwait is an Iraqi province or a claim by Mexico that Texas is a Mexican province.

Any caving in on our support for Taiwan for monetary gain would be morally bankrupt.

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by Drifterman
OK, as you can probably guess, this is an issue of great importance where I live.


So I ask all here: Is Taiwan a country, or a province of China?

A democratic country, last time I checked.


Should the international community support the Taiwanese Democratic People's Party (DPP) in its efforts to introduce a referendum on declaring independence from China?

Yes, it should, 100%.


Or should the rest of the world ignore Taiwan's precarious position, and hope that China doesn't make good on its threat to wash Taiwan in blood should it ever declare itself independent.

No it should not be ignored. From what I remember of history, this is no idle threat.


Does capitalist lust at the thought of access China's (potentially) huge market outweigh love of the democratic principle? Is kow-towing to the Dragon more important than the right of the Taiwanese people to be fully accepted members of the international community?

Taiwan has become an industrial and economic power in it's own right since becomeing democratic. I'd say from a capitalist viewpoint, dealing with Taiwan would be more profitable than dealing with China. China has a lot of people and a lot of poverty.


Does anyone find Chinese bullying offensive?
Yes, especially in regards to Taiwan and Tibet.

[a_unique_person]

The people of Taiwan have been watching the events in Hong Kong with interest. Chinese attempts to tone down the agreement with great britain to preserve democracy there are being met with massive popular demonstrations.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/07/07/1057430136394.html

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Drifterman
OK, as you can probably guess, this is an issue of great importance where I live.

So I ask all here: Is Taiwan a country, or a province of China?

Should the international community support the Taiwanese Democratic People's Party (DPP) in its efforts to introduce a referendum on declaring independence from China?

Or should the rest of the world ignore Taiwan's precarious position, and hope that China doesn't make good on its threat to wash Taiwan in blood should it ever declare itself independent.

Does capitalist lust at the thought of access China's (potentially) huge market outweigh love of the democratic principle? Is kow-towing to the Dragon more important than the right of the Taiwanese people to be fully accepted members of the international community?

Does anyone find Chinese bullying offensive?

I find the Chinese bullying of Taiwan offensive. I say that because China is a communist nation-state, a country of darkness while Taiwan is a country of light.

I am thinking that Taiwan should be armed with nuclear weapons because of the dangerous commie red threat from China. Hydrogen bombs, specifically.

I wouldn't worry about China right now though because the Republicans are in charge. You won't have to worry so much about Chinese appeasement from the right.

JK

[Drifterman]

peptoabysmal originally posted:
Taiwan has become an industrial and economic power in it's own right since becomeing democratic.

Taiwan became an industrial and economic power well before embracing democracy.

In fact, the first democratic change of ruling party occured in 1999, when Chen Shui Bian's DPP defeated the Chinese Nationalist Kuomintang (KMT) in the ROC's first free Presidential election.

peptoabysmal originally posted:
I'd say from a capitalist viewpoint, dealing with Taiwan would be more profitable than dealing with China.

However, Taiwan has a population of only 23 million - a tiny drop compared to the Chinese ocean. Indeed, Shanghai alone has a population reckoned to be more than 19 million (although by some estimates it is shrinking due to demographic changes). The Chinese outnumber the Taiwanese more than 55:1 - they may be poor (mostly) but a dispassionate appraisal would certainly deem China's potential to be profitable as hugely greater than Taiwan's.

When China announces growth rates of 9% per year, the world takes notice. Also, China is a source of almost limitless (seeming) cheap labour, which is very attractive to foreign capital.

[Drifterman]

Jedi Knight originally posted:
I find the Chinese bullying of Taiwan offensive. I say that because China is a communist nation-state, a country of darkness while Taiwan is a country of light.

I would disagree with the assertion that China is a communist state. The fallaciousness of that view is caused by taking the statements of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) at face value (always a dangerous idea) - just because it says it is communist doesn't make it so.

The current regime in China is capitalism unrestrained by the civilising influence of democracy or civil society. The CCP itself is a paranoid bureaucracy, constantly at odds with itself. Some of the remnants of the Mao era still linger.

Even during the Mao era, China was never really communist. Sure, Mao accepted a lot of Soviet doctrine, but that was the Marxist-Leninist principles and Stalinist principles. This invasive ideological garbage combined with one of the most pernicious ills of Chinese society - legalism - which merely replaced the Emperor with the CCP as the ultimate authority. And of course, when the ultimate authority is a paranoid schizophrenic like the CCP, the results are predictable catastrophic.

It is easy to blame communism for the chaos of China in the 20th century - and the CCP is certainly to blame for a huge amount of the suffering. But should we blame the original idea that inspired this idiocy? I say, it is only culpable in a small way.

You may disagree, but, looking a century further back in Chinese history, can we blame another invading idea for causing a similar level of suffering? The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom of Hong Xiuquan originated in Christian teachings, and caused the deaths of in excess of 20 million people.

These two regimes were bad, but only partially because of the ideas that inspired them. If you criticise one ideology, you by extension criticise the other. If the idea of communism was bad for the pople of China, then the idea of Christianity was equally bad.

[Drifterman]

corplinx originally posted:
Taiwan is whatever the government and Taiwan say it is as far as I am concerned. The west agrees, we just don't go blurting it out much since we are trying to slowly corrupt China with western ideals and don't want setbacks.

China is more corrupt than you can possibly imagine - but it is not our western ideals that are catching on, nor our scruples.

'Tis our unscruples that are admire'd by the Chinese.

[Agammamon]

Originally posted by Blue Monk
To anyone who truly believes in the principle of a people's right to self-determination there can only be one answer.

Yes, Taiwan is, or at least should be a country.

China's claim that Taiwan is a province may have historical merit but is, in my opinion, irrelevant if it is contrary to the desires of the people of Taiwan, which of course it is.

China's claim is no more valid that Iraq's claim that Kuwait is an Iraqi province or a claim by Mexico that Texas is a Mexican province.

Any caving in on our support for Taiwan for monetary gain would be morally bankrupt.

I would like to point out, at least as far as the US is concerned, that individual provinces do not have the right to secede. The US settled this question during out Civil War. Of course in real life we tend to apply a double standard.

[Crossbow]

Taiwan is not officially a country, but practically speaking they operate as if they were an independent country. China and Taiwan essentially have an understanding that as long as they do not directly interfere with each other, then neither one will harm the other.

[SteveW]

If it has a flag, its a country. No flag - no country. Its as simple as that.

(apologies to Eddie Izzard)

[Drifterman]

The flag of the Republic of China (ROC).

This, however is a little problematic, because up until recently the KMT claimed to be the legitimate government of all China. As far as I know, there is no actual flag that is just for Taiwan.

[Drifterman]

Crossbow originally posted:
Taiwan is not officially a country, but practically speaking they operate as if they were an independent country. China and Taiwan essentially have an understanding that as long as they do not directly interfere with each other, then neither one will harm the other.

Hmm - then why does China persistently block any of Taiwan's moves to legalise its international status? I would call that interference.

For example, with the recent SARS epidemic, China blocked WHO access (or tried very hard to) to Taiwan, claiming that the welfare of the people of Taiwan was being looked after by the People's Republic of China (PRC). A laughable assertion. China directly interferes with Taiwan all the time, not least of which was firing missiles into the Taiwan Strait in 1996 in order to affect the outcome of the first free Presidential election in Taiwan

[Bearguin]

Originally posted by SteveW
If it has a flag, its a country. No flag - no country. Its as simple as that.

(apologies to Eddie Izzard)


Hmmm. I guess I live in the country of British Columbia, right next to the country of Alberta, next to the country of......


All the Canadian Provinces have their own flags. Only one of them think they are their own country.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Drifterman


Hmm - then why does China persistently block any of Taiwan's moves to legalise its international status? I would call that interference.

For example, with the recent SARS epidemic, China blocked WHO access (or tried very hard to) to Taiwan, claiming that the welfare of the people of Taiwan was being looked after by the People's Republic of China (PRC). A laughable assertion. China directly interferes with Taiwan all the time, not least of which was firing missiles into the Taiwan Strait in 1996 in order to affect the outcome of the first free Presidential election in Taiwan

Well, it is because a deal is a deal.

While Taiwan may have a flag (it takes more than a flag to make a country by the way), their country has not been recognized as a nation by the international community and Taiwan has told China that they will not to declare themselves as a seperate country in the future.

Indeed, there is hope that one day, Taiwan and China may heal their rift and become one nation again.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Drifterman
So I ask all here: Is Taiwan a country, or a province of China?


Province of China- according to all other governments.

Originally posted by Drifterman
Should the international community support the Taiwanese Democratic People's Party (DPP) in its efforts to introduce a referendum on declaring independence from China?


No, it should support Taiwan instead of supporting the Chinese dictatorship.

Originally posted by Drifterman
Does capitalist lust at the thought of access China's (potentially) huge market outweigh love of the democratic principle? Is kow-towing to the Dragon more important than the right of the Taiwanese people to be fully accepted members of the international community?


Yes. Obviously. Human rights dont make cents.

Originally posted by Drifterman
Does anyone find Chinese bullying offensive?

Yes, very much.

[Drifterman]

Crossbow originally posted:
Well, it is because a deal is a deal.

A deal between who? The KMT and the CCP?

China's claim over Taiwan is comparable to a British claim over all of Ireland. If the British government had done a secret deal with the IRA, would that negate the Irish people's claim to statehood?


Crossbow originally posted:
While Taiwan may have a flag (it takes more than a flag to make a country by the way), their country has not been recognized as a nation by the international community

As I noted before, Taiwan does not have a flag - the Republic of China does. The two are not synonymous.

In fact, the ROC had a seat on the UN Security council until it was unceremoniously booted out after Nixon went to China. The loss of the security council seat I agree with, but the expulsion from the entire organisation was a grotesque betrayal.

As for meddling - China has stated that any move towards a referendum in Taiwan over anything at all would be considered a hostile act.

Why is Taiwan so different from East Timor?

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Drifterman

Why is Taiwan so different from East Timor?

Because you can make lots of $ out of China.

Originally posted by Drifterman

China's claim over Taiwan is comparable to a British claim over all of Ireland. If the British government had done a secret deal with the IRA, would that negate the Irish people's claim to statehood?


I would say that in fact, Republic of Irelands claim to Northern Ireland is analagous to Chinas claim to Taiwan.

[jj]

Jedi Knight as quoted by Drifterman:

Jedi Knight originally posted:
I find the Chinese bullying of Taiwan offensive. I say that because China is a communist nation-state, a country of darkness while Taiwan is a country of light.

----

Would someone like to recite the history of the KMT here for us?

Don't take this as support for the PRC, either, thank you.

How about a book titled: A tale of two warlords and two sisters?

[jj]

Originally posted by SteveW
If it has a flag, its a country. No flag - no country. Its as simple as that.

(apologies to Eddie Izzard)

Ohio is a country!

Oh, man. Dennis the Menace, eat your heart out!

[Drifterman]

Originally posted by jj
How about a book titled: A tale of two warlords and two sisters?

For an interesting narrative history, you could try Sterling Seagrave's "The Soong Dynasty."

Seagrave's a good writer, but he does appear to get a little breathless at times.

[JAR]

Taiwan is its own country. I don't know why maps continue to include it as part of China. Some times people are stupid.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by JAR
Taiwan is its own country. I don't know why maps continue to include it as part of China. Some times people are stupid.

Not stupid- just valuing profits over ethics ie. Greedy.
Those 'stupid' people are all our respective governments.

[reprise]

One reason why Australia will not seek UN approval to send police and peace-keepers to the Solomon Islands is because the Solomon Islands' recognition of the sovereignty of Taiwan makes it extremely likely that China would use its veto to defeat any peace-keeping proposal.

[Underemployed]

I'm an Englishman who lived in Taiwan for a year and a half.

Taiwan is definitely it's own country.

It is also The Republic of China.

During the Olympics, it might be Chinese Taipei.

Ahh, Taiwan...Land of contrasts...

Certainly nobody there is ruled by the Chinese government, though of course they are hugely influenced by it.

Much (if not most) of the western worlds information systems rely on factories and companies in, or owned by, Taiwanese. All they need are a few nukes and China can forget any ambitions of bringing Taiwan back into the fold, which would put a huge smile on my face.

[Drifterman]

I would not be surprised if Taiwan could field nuclear weapons very quickly, in the event that the US ended its military support.

[DialecticMaterialist]

Taiwan is a country. It has no government connection to the People's Republic of China. None.

It is not only a country in name only. But that's like saying the Soviet Reforms weren't capitalistic. It's amazing how easily some people trick themselves with language...

In any event it's quite obvious Taiwan is a sovereign nation and should be recognised as such.

[ceo_esq]

The following website offers a "synopsis of the impact of international agreements on the legal status of Taiwan":

http://www.taiwandocuments.org/summary.htm

It draws the following conclusions:Japan held undisputed sovereignty over Formosa from 1895 to 1945. After Japan's defeat in war in 1945, Formosa's surrender was accepted and the island occupied by representatives of Chiang Kai-shek, as Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in the China Theatre. In 1951, Japan renounced sovereignty over the island without making provision for a transfer of sovereignty. The Treaty of Peace in which Japan renounced sovereignty over Formosa declared Japan's commitment to the principles of the United Nations Charter, which includes a commitment to self-determination of peoples and which implicitly transferred sovereignty over the island to her inhabitants. In the absence of formal agreements regarding sovereignty over territory, current international law favours self-determination as the means of establishing sovereignty. No other agreement since the 1951 Treaty has clarified the issue of sovereignty over Formosa. Constitutional reforms in the Republic of China in the 1990s transformed the regime on Formosa from an occupation government into a democratic government representative of the will of the people of Formosa. The only state which currently disputes the Formosan people's sovereignty over the island is the People's Republic of China, a state which has never held possession or title to the island and whose leadership prior to 1943 supported the "national liberation struggle" on the island.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Bush says he opposes Taiwan independence (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3941647.stm). Meanwhile...

Washington is negotiating a deal to sell missiles and other weapons systems worth $18bn to the island - which China regards as a renegade province.

China warns (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3938617.stm) that Beijing may attack Taiwan by 2008 if President Chen Shui-bian pursues his plans for constitutional change.

[Rob Lister]

Taiwan will never be a truly soverign nation so long as it gives a rats as$ what other soverign nations -- China and U.S. especially -- think regarding it being a soverign nation.

Grow some nads for pete's sake.

[sorgoth]

If the people of a territory act as if that territory is a country, then it is one.

In my opinion, anyway...

[Hutch]

Originally posted by Rob Lister
Grow some nads for pete's sake.

Spoken like a man who'll never get within 10,000 miles of any fighting that might occur there....or perhaps you have a Rush Limbaugh (http://www.snopes.com/military/limbaugh.htm) deferment...:p

Look, people, Taiwan will NEVER be recognized as a soverign nation until and unless Mainland China agrees to it. No one will risk war, neither the Chinese (who do not yet have the military capability to mount and sustain an attack) or the US/Japan (who are not equipped or manned to fight a full-scale war against China in Taiwan.

For the time being, the best we can hope for is the status quo---a quasi-independent Island that everybody calls part of China but is operating as an Independent state.

Time, as always, will tell...maybe China will move closer to an open society, perhaps the economic ties between the two (which are already well-established) will bind them tightly in all but the formal political sense, maybe Chinese propaganda will succeed and the Taiwanese will willingly join China....and then again, anybody for WW III?

And maybe the horse will sing.....:con2:

[Hutch]

Originally posted by sorgoth
If the people of a territory act as if that territory is a country, then it is one.

In my opinion, anyway...

...And the Confederate States of America, the Kurds of Turkey and Iran, and Quebec thank you for your opinion..;)

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Drifterman
OK, as you can probably guess, this is an issue of great importance where I live.

So I ask all here: Is Taiwan a country, or a province of China?

Should the international community support the Taiwanese Democratic People's Party (DPP) in its efforts to introduce a referendum on declaring independence from China?

Or should the rest of the world ignore Taiwan's precarious position, and hope that China doesn't make good on its threat to wash Taiwan in blood should it ever declare itself independent.

Does capitalist lust at the thought of access China's (potentially) huge market outweigh love of the democratic principle? Is kow-towing to the Dragon more important than the right of the Taiwanese people to be fully accepted members of the international community?

Does anyone find Chinese bullying offensive?

I've always said f*** China. That's a country that really needs to be taken to task for human rights violations. From Laogai camps to Tianamen (apoligies for the spelling) the current regime are nothing but scum. Yet not a peep about sanctions, or anything. The G7 nations you mention are courting the country for trade. Money speaks louder than blood.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
Yet not a peep about sanctions, or anything. The G7 nations you mention are courting the country for trade. Money speaks louder than blood.

But China is so huge and (I think) self-sufficient. Realistically, what difference could sanctions make?

The best bet is to continue the steady drip-drip-drip of capitalism, and sweep the regime from power that way - and hope another Tiananmen Square doesn't happen. But things are moving slowly in the right direction. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3939585.stm) Society is changing. As was pointed out above, so long as Taiwan doesn't do anything to precipitate trouble, things look like they might work out in the end.