"Quick, We Need A Distraction!" (Mugrabi Gate repairs)

[webfusion]

It all started one snowy Jerusalem day in 2004, when part of the earthen ramp leading to the Mugrabi Gate - the main gate to the Temple Mount - collapsed.


The Israelis have a construction crew out there now, trying to move ahead with a multi-million dollar renovation project, and guess what?

The muslims are complaining that the jews are trying to demolish the Temple Mount and destroy the AlAqsa and build a third temple, blah blah blah.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=mugrabi&itemNo=822745

Just as the palestinian leaders are trying to get something accomplished to stop their own from killing each other, they have latched onto this as an opportunity to "unite" against the jews/zionists/Israelis (depending on who you listen to)

Israeli MK Talab El-Sana (United Arab List) warned on Tuesday that the excavations are likely to ignite a third intifada, that will include protests and conflict throughout the Arab and Muslim world.

"The Israeli government is again provoking the Muslim world and the Palestinian people, and is not hesitating to ignite the region on behalf of irresponsible decisions," El-Sana said. [ (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=mugrabi&itemNo=822535)

Threats, complaints and more threats.

Yet, the ramp is in ruins, and constructing a safe pedestrian walkway is the logical way to proceed. Oh, Jerusalem, it's never a dull day.

[webfusion]

OK, so I started a thread that is obscure...

Anyway, just to update:


-- Iran`s Ayatollah Ali Khamenei urges Islamic states to retaliate against Jerusalem dig (AP)

-- Islamic Movement head Sheikh Ra'ad Salah arrested for trying to reach Temple Mount by breaking through police barricade (Army Radio)

-- HAMAS protests in the streets against the project ::: PHOTO HERE (http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D070207/gaza_rally300_ap.jpg)

[webfusion]

This is a HUGE story in the arab press worldwide, and the media in Israel is covering it extensively.

The Defense Minister of Israel is now indicating that the work should be halted, in respect of the sensibilities of Muslims everywhere.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/823269.html

Also, the US State Department has just requested a complete briefing on the situation.

Lack of comments here is puzzling. (http://www.naturesongs.com/cricket1.wav)

[gtc]

The only thing that is new about this story is the specific grievance.

Everything else, from the degree of over reaction to the bluster from the Iranians, is just the same old same old.

I bet there is a form for these stories at the press agencies.

"Today the Israelis <insert inoccuous Israeli actions>.

This led to calls for the destruction of Israel by <insert spokesperson> who said, "By <insert inoccuous Israeli actions> the Israelis are trying to destabilize the entire region. The end result will be violence and conflict...."

[webfusion]

You know what, gtc, you are absolutely correct.

Here, let's try it, and see what happens:

Today the Israelis <insert inoccuous Israeli actions> Returned Warning Fire at Lebanese Army Units Who Had Begun Shooting At IDF Across the International Border.

This led to calls for the destruction of Israel by <insert spokesperson> Hezbollah-sponsored AlManar TV commentators who declared that, <insert inoccuous Israeli actions> "IDF bulldozers accompanied by Engineering Corps and infantry troops were overturning mounds of earth."

"The Israelis are trying to destabilize the entire region. The end result will be violence and more conflict..."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/823212.html

Yeah, we're numb to it all.
It all blends together into one incomprehensible mess.
Mugrabi Mushabi.

[Mycroft]

The only thing that is new about this story is the specific grievance.

Everything else, from the degree of over reaction to the bluster from the Iranians, is just the same old same old.

I bet there is a form for these stories at the press agencies.

"Today the Israelis <insert inoccuous Israeli actions>.

This led to calls for the destruction of Israel by <insert spokesperson> who said, "By <insert inoccuous Israeli actions> the Israelis are trying to destabilize the entire region. The end result will be violence and conflict...."

You're right, this is a "dog bites man" story, but it's still well worth drawing attention to because there is still the cadre of "True Believers" who continue to remain in denial about how Arab grievances against Israel are manufactured and inflated, often with little or no foundation.

[gtc]

You're right, this is a "dog bites man" story, but it's still well worth drawing attention to because there is still the cadre of "True Believers" who continue to remain in denial about how Arab grievances against Israel are manufactured and inflated, often with little or no foundation.

True, but it explains why there were no comments.

[steverino]

I think this story needs an astronaut and a diaper to sex things up a bit.

[webfusion]

steverino, the story needs nothing, it's fine just the way it is.

Egypt's top Muslim cleric called Israeli excavations near a compound housing the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem a "sinful aggression" and appealed on Wednesday for global action to protect the site.

What do you think is wrong with these badly-needed renovation efforts? Should Israel stop, to satisfy the demands of the muslims who object?

Address the issues, if you want to, but don't come into my thread and snipe with complete inanities. TIA.

[Dr Adequate]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/823212.htmlThe story seems to have disappeared.

But I see from that website that there is something they can all agree on:

"Please do not upset our lord" was the joint appeal from Jewish, Christian, and Muslim clerics at a news conference in Jerusalem on Wednesday to protest plans to host the WorldPride gay festival in August.

Suddenly, I have a plan for peace in the Middle East. Now, I know it sounds a little strange at first, but hear me out ...

[webfusion]

The (OP-linked) story seems to have disappeared.

The editorial wizards at Ha'aretz are constantly screwing up their website, with updates and new stories that completely change at a whim.

What they need to do is hire a native English-speaker with a proper sense of continuity and allow him/her to organize the website in a way that allows their readers to follow stories over the course of a few days. Especially since many initial reports in Israel are sketchy and often wrong, and it takes a while for the details to be revealed correctly.

The story about the construction project at the Mugrabi Gate is now linked to this conglomeration of various reports:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/823269.html

The major element in that update is the response of the Prime Minister's Office to the request by Defense Minister Peretz to halt the work:

"As to the matter at hand," the statement said, "the restoration of the Mugrabi ascent after the place collapsed and was declared a dangerous structure was done in complete coordination with all parties, including foreign countries, relevant Muslim officials and international bodies. As has been explained, this work is being carried on outside the Temple Mount, and they [the repairs] do not constitute any damage to the Mount or Islamic holy places."

"The work is being carried out by professionals and with complete transparency, entirely for the safety of visitors to the Mount," the statement continued. "A thorough examination of the matter would reveal that nothing about the work underway will harm anyone, and there is no truth in the contentions against the work."

And the project continues...

(a friend of mine in Jerusalem has told me that construction activity is now ongoing, and an extremely heavy police presence is guarding the entire Western Wall Plaza and the surrounding area).

[geni]

You know what, gtc, you are absolutely correct.

Here, let's try it, and see what happens:

[list]Today the Israelis <insert inoccuous Israeli actions> Returned Warning Fire at Lebanese Army Units Who Had Begun Shooting At IDF Across the International Border.

What is the Lebanese Army doing in southen Lebanon? Did they get lost or something?

[webfusion]

The question you asked, geni, is absurd, in relation to the events.

Liam McDowell, a spokesman for the UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL), said the exchange was initiated by the Lebanese army and that the IDF bulldozer was operating in the neutral zone beyond the Israeli-constructed security fence, but the IDF troops had not violated the Blue Line. (Internationally-recognized demarcation between the two countries)


Geni's question should be properly phrased:
"What is the Lebanese Army doing shooting at the IDF across the Blue Line?
Did they lose their minds, or something?"

Let me say something, lest this be construed as a derail to the topic:
This is directly related to the entire issue of the OP ----
The Israeli construction on the Mugrabi gate rampart is outside the Temple Mount and completely outside the boundries of the WAQF-controlled Al-Aqsa complex.

In both instances, Israel is doing things that are consistent with the normal responsibilities of any nation. In one case, it sends military engineering units to clear a border area of IED's (Improvised Explosive Devices, or mines) and other munitions which pose a clear and present danger. In the other case, it sends civil engineering units to repair a disintegrating access walkway which has been condemned as a clear and present danger.

In both instances, Israel faces arab anger and violent reactions just for operating in a logical and normal way.

And this thread is attracting minimal attention precisely because we are a group of logical and normal people (in general) and cannot see the need for Israel to have to answer for actions that are consistent and rational.

Now, the French, on the other hand ----
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/823212.html
The French ambassdor to the United Nations said Thursday that Paris wants the UN Security Council to discuss and react to the Wednesday night border clash between the Israel Defense Forces and the Lebanese Army.

"We think that the council should have an exchange of views on this issue, which is an important one," France's UN Ambassador Jean-Marc de la Sabliere told reporters.

[geni]

The question you asked, geni, is absurd, in relation to the events.

Not really. Southen lebanon is hezbollah turf.


Geni's question should be properly phrased:
"What is the Lebanese Army doing shooting at the IDF across the Blue Line?
Did they lose their minds, or something?"


Eh isreal shot a few egyptions a while back. It happens on tense boarders.

[gtc]

The question you asked, geni, is absurd, in relation to the events.

Actually, it depends on your perspective. From this distance, it was a witty remark about the fact that the Lebanese army seem to have ceded the South of the country to Hezbollah.

Of course, Hezbollah have no plans to invade my country (although this fine felllow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamdouh_Habib) is standing for election), so the joke may not be as funny from your perspective.




By the way, what do you make of this article from the Sydney Morning Herald (http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/abbass-jittery-forces-have-little-stomach-for-fighting/2007/02/08/1170524236677.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1)

The choice quotes are these (emphasis mine):

AFTER weeks of fraternal violence, many Palestinians accuse the US of stoking civil war in the Palestinian territories as part of a wider proxy struggle with Iran, Syria or the Islamic world in general. If that is so, the White House's strategy risks going badly wrong.

The Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, has rejected all appeals, including one from the Defence Minister, Amir Peretz, and from Arab states, to halt excavation work near Jerusalem's most important holy site, Reuters reports. Mr Olmert said the excavations in search of ancient artifacts beneath the compound known to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif and which houses the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and to Jews as the Temple Mount, would not harm the sacred site in Jerusalem's walled Old City.

Lets replace one conspiracy theory with another in the first quote:

AFTER weeks of fraternal violence, many Palestinians accuse the Jews of drinking the blood of children. If that is so, the Jew's strategy risks going badly wrong.

[webfusion]

The Sydney HERALD is making stuff up.
Prime Minister Olmert did not say that the Israelis are "in search of ancient artifacts beneath the compound" (known to Muslims as Haram al-Sharif)

There is no digging taking place under the compound. That is the lie.

Here, let me illustrate:

(SEE IMAGE) (http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/374245cbd44691e5e.jpg)
Key to locations ---
#1. The southwest corner of the outer wall of the area was in danger of completely collapsing, and Jordanian work crews erected scaffolding there in a major effort to reinforce the stone. The "bulge" was apparently caused as a result of digging into the Solomon's Stables on the inside of the wall, which was done without any proper supervision by the Israeli engineers and antiquities specialists. That entire underground corner of the Mount was converted into a mosque.

#2. AlAqsa Mosque, with the gray dome. Many people assume the prominent golden-domed structure in the center of the Mount (#4) is the Al-Aqsa, but that's incorrect.

#3. This is the dirt rampart leading up to the Mugrabi (Maghreb) Gate.

#4. Mosque of Omar. Built over the Rock of Abraham (where Abraham was prepared to sacrifice Isaac).

#5. Dung Gate. This is a major entrance for the Western Wall Plaza and is a primary tourist passage into the Old City. Security here is high, with electronic scanners and ID checks.

#6. Western (Wailing) Wall.

[webfusion]

About 200 police officers entered the area around the Al-Aqsa Mosque and hurled stun grenades to disperse Muslim protesters there midday Friday, as hundreds of demonstrators threw stones.

Also, in Nazareth, 10,000 protestors took to the streets to condemn the "Jewish assault on the Mosque."

As has happened several times in the past, the current campaign to "defend Al-Aqsa" is not based on facts, but on the political and/or religious needs of its leaders.

[Skeptic]

The editorial wizards at Ha'aretz are constantly screwing up their website, with updates and new stories that completely change at a whim.

I'm shocked--SHOCKED--that a daily newspaper's web site will get new stories "on a whim".

[webfusion]

Skeptic, gotta hand it to you, you sure know how to pour cold water down a guy's neck.

The problem with Ha'aretz is not that they have new stories on their website, but rather that they lack continuity with links to stories which already exist.

Go click on the link in the OP and you'll see.

=================================

Jews were prevented from praying today at the Western Wall due to the rioting by the Arabs, and the police had to close-off the entire area.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3362619,00.html
An appeal to the High Court of Justice may be made by various jewish groups to force the police to close the Temple Mount completely.

[webfusion]

Protests against the construction have spread throughout the Muslim world, where demonstrators have accused Israel of plotting to harm Islamic shrines.


Public Security Minister Avi Dichter (Kadima) said Saturday that "Israel will foil any attempt on the part of Muslims to convince the world that the Al-Aqsa Mosque is in danger."

In an Interview to Israel Radio, Dichter said that the construction and excavation is going on "outside of the Temple Mount compound, and whoever says otherwise must prove their argument."


For clear evidence of the location of the rampart outside the Temple Mount, please see my post #16 above. (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2326288&postcount=16)

[webfusion]

The Arab League chief on Saturday accused Israel of attempting to alter the features of Jerusalem (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/823799.html)with its ongoing construction and excavation work near the Mugrabi Gate to the Temple Mount, and urged the international community to intercede to stop the work.

"There are plans to change the features of the city, Amr Moussa said in a statement distributed to the Arab representatives at an emergency League meeting in Cairo.


At least this statement is being honest, and not claiming that Israel is digging under Al-Aqsa or the Temple Mount itself.
This "changing the features" complaint is so broad that it could be used to challenge virtually any new construction project in and around Jerusalem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramot

Meanwhile, protests are getting more virulent.
Palestinians pelted a bus carrying vacationing Canadians on a tour of the Mount of Olives holy site in East Jerusalem.

In Jordan, Islamists called for holy war, or jihad, to save the mosque and vowed revolt against their Arab rulers (Hashemite Royal family) if they do not protect the Jerusalem flashpoint site from Israeli actions.
The committee of Muslim scholars in Jordan's largest political opposition group, the Islamic Action Front, or IAF, said in a statement that they "urge ... proclaiming jihad to liberate Al-Aqsa and save it from destruction and sabotage from Jewish usurpers."

[webfusion]

Israel's government (cabinet) met today and decided that this construction project is of vital importance.

Minister for Jerusalem Affairs Yaakov Edri would be given overall responsibility for coordinating the continuation of the excavation.
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Sunday that Israel would not let the Muslim opposition dictate what sort of activities could be done on Israeli territory in the Old City of Jerusalem. "[Hamas leader] Khaled Meshal and [Islamic Movement head] Ra'ad Salah cannot tell us what to do 20 meters from the Western Wall."

Click here for a photo of Palestinians throwing firebombs at Israeli Border Police officers during clashes in the West Bank city of Hebron on Sunday, in protest at the Mugrabi project. (AP) (http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D110207/mololotov.jpg)

Also, as a result of the violence, 3 Palestinian schools have been closed due to Temple Mount security measures. (The children are being prevented from reaching their school)

This story has 'legs' --- and I'm still a bit stunned to see a lack of participation in the thread. Where's all those JREF regulars who normally chime in?

[steverino]

WEB- I heard on a talk radio show here that Palestinians prayed at the Temple Mount, then exited, picked up rocks and bottles, and threw them at the workers who were repairing the steps. That is a bizarre and violent visual.

[webfusion]

WEB- I heard on a talk radio show here that Palestinians prayed at the Temple Mount, then exited, picked up rocks and bottles, and threw them at the workers who were repairing the steps. That is a bizarre and violent visual.

If it was on a radio talk show, how is that a 'visual' ? ;)

Rioting is spreading throughout the palestinian areas, as they react to the fabricated story about Israel harming the AlAqsa compound.

{See: Widespread rioting and violence in 1996, when Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and Jerusalem's Mayor Ehud Olmert (now prime minister) opened a tunnel that exposed the bottom layer of the Temple Mount's ancient external wall. The Muslims protested and in ensuing clashes 69 Palestinians and 16 Israeli soldiers were killed.}

This project has the same propensity to incite that level of violence, not just in Israel but elsewhere in the muslim world.

[WildCat]

What is the Lebanese Army doing in southen Lebanon? Did they get lost or something?
Huh? If they're shooting at the IDF across the border the IDF is not in Lebanon. Unless, of course, the Lebanese army was in Israel and the IDF in Lebanon.

[webfusion]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/824624.html
Jerusalem mayor Uri Lupolianski announced late Sunday night that he has decided to postpone construction of the walkway at the Mugrabi Ascent until zoning authorities complete plans for the area.

Jerusalem municipal sources said Sunday that the decision could in fact be postponed for months.

And that puts an end to that, in the meantime.
Simple enough.

[gtc]

Also, in Nazareth, 10,000 protestors took to the streets to condemn the "Jewish assault on the Mosque."

Surely, they have been misquoted. They must have meant to say, "Zionist assualt on the Mosque.". Afterall, critising Israel is not the same as anti-semitism. :rolleyes:

In Jordan, Islamists called for holy war, or jihad, to save the mosque and vowed revolt against their Arab rulers (Hashemite Royal family) if they do not protect the Jerusalem flashpoint site from Israeli actions.
The committee of Muslim scholars in Jordan's largest political opposition group, the Islamic Action Front, or IAF, said in a statement that they "urge ... proclaiming jihad to liberate Al-Aqsa and save it from destruction and sabotage from Jewish usurpers."

So they want the West Bank to be Jordanian again? Surely that would discriminate against the Palestinians who have always been there and always been a distinct nation, etc, etc.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/824624.html
Jerusalem mayor Uri Lupolianski announced late Sunday night that he has decided to postpone construction of the walkway at the Mugrabi Ascent until zoning authorities complete plans for the area.

Jerusalem municipal sources said Sunday that the decision could in fact be postponed for months.

And that puts an end to that, in the meantime.
Simple enough.

Will the Palestinians see this as confirmation that the Israelis did something wrong by starting construction work?

[webfusion]

In practice, the decision means that approval of the plan will be postponed until a hearing of all the letters of opposition filed by city residents. The salvage excavation being conducted by the Antiquities Authority is expected to continue at this stage, parallel to the public discussion of the zoning plan.

Since the palestinians of East Jerusalem can now petition their opposition to the plan, it is entirely likely that these objections of the palestinians may be sufficient to scuttle the entire operation.

As for the excavations (referred to as 'salvage' or dirt removal), these probably will only last a short while and the crews doing that work will then leave.

This is going to be seen as a 'victory' for the palestinians and Olmert gets one more 'failure' on his record. The PM is now on borrowed time, especially since only 14% of the Israeli public approve of him anyway (as of Jan. 2007 (http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7006305157)).

[Mycroft]

About 200 police officers entered the area around the Al-Aqsa Mosque and hurled stun grenades to disperse Muslim protesters there midday Friday, as hundreds of demonstrators threw stones.


I want to know where the stones came from. I mean loose, stones to be thrown are not something that would normally be found at the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound, would it?

So were they trucked there in advance, or what?

[Schneibster]

I guess if you bulldoze enough buildings with people inside them, people get uptight whenever they see you coming with bulldozers. Bummer. Deal.

[The Fool]

I want to know where the stones came from. I mean loose, stones to be thrown are not something that would normally be found at the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound, would it?

So were they trucked there in advance, or what?
you are correct, I imagine stones are fairly rare in the middle east.

[Azure]

I guess if you bulldoze enough buildings with people inside them, people get uptight whenever they see you coming with bulldozers. Bummer. Deal.

Is that your excuse, or their excuse?

Because I'm sure their excuse has something to do with...'evil Zionist Nation...destroy at all costs'...and a bunch of other bullcrap nobody understands.

[gtc]

I guess if you bulldoze enough buildings with people inside them, people get uptight whenever they see you coming with bulldozers. Bummer. Deal.

Gee, if this is what you think getting up tight is about. I would hate to see what happens when you get mad.

[Kopji]

A quick sampling of e-mails from Haaretz readers:

...Israelis ruled by idiots and morons --and this is one more example of how stupid in authority really are . Why anybody needs any opinion on such simple matters --why anybody needs any Muslim opinion on the matter of Sovereign Jerusalem. What exactly Muslims got to do with Jerusalem ? We would evict all the Muslims from the city to Gaza and Mecca , and make the city trully whatever it is supposed to be Judeo-Christian city , prohibited by Islamist and Muslim sinners from entry , just as Mohammed profesized it .

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/ResponseDetails.jhtml?resNo=1844174&itemno=824624&cont=2

...Again, one of our own led us back into dhimmi status. The Arabs don`t have to make us dhimmis when we do it to ourselves.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/ResponseDetails.jhtml?resNo=1844082&itemno=824624&cont=2

...Yet again Muslim threats of violence force spineless `lerders` to tuck their tails between their legs and back away.

...How long will the State continue to tell Islam that violent resistance does not cause progress wehile showing them that it does?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/ResponseDetails.jhtml?resNo=1844099&itemno=824624&cont=2

I'm sure there were more reasonable ones somewhere, but I think that the 'extreemists-who-can't-spel-write' touched on a good point with this one. Inclusiveness, diplomacy and good planning (involving both political and economic cost/benefit analysis) are seen as weaknesses - an inferior second-rate alternative to enforcing your will through strength.

There seems enough of this to go around on both sides, but well, if you are going to start with a 'strength' strategy you ought to stick with it because being perceived as weak is going to have a definite downside.

[SezMe]

Jerusalem mayor Uri Lupolianski announced late Sunday night that he has decided to postpone construction of the walkway at the Mugrabi Ascent until zoning authorities complete plans for the area.
That doesn't pass the odor test. Please tell me that "zoning authorities" (or somebody) have detailed plans for that area that have been in place for YEARS.

[Mycroft]

you are correct, I imagine stones are fairly rare in the middle east.

I'm sure they're very common in the Middle East. It's the specific area around the Western Wall and the Dome of the Rock I'm talking about. A place where loose gravel just isn't likely to be found.

Nice attempt at baiting, though.

[Schneibster]

Gee, if this is what you think getting up tight is about. I would hate to see what happens when you get mad.The last time anything happened around there, the intifada started.

Bringing a bulldozer within a mile a that place is askin for trouble. No whiners.

[Mycroft]

The last time anything happened around there, the intifada started.

Bringing a bulldozer within a mile a that place is askin for trouble. No whiners.

Except what you have in this thread is a demonstrated history of Arab leaders using the Mosque for rabble-rousing. The grievance is manufactured.

[gtc]

The last time anything happened around there, the intifada started.

Bringing a bulldozer within a mile a that place is askin for trouble. No whiners.

Was that really the last time anything happened around the Temple Mount area? Really?

Also, I would like your opinion about this statement from earlier in the thread:

"urge ... proclaiming jihad to liberate Al-Aqsa and save it from destruction and sabotage from Jewish usurpers."

I hope I am missing some of the context of your posts, but do you really think that anti-semitic statements like this are a natural response to anything the Israelis have done in relation to the Temple Mount area?

[steverino]

I guess if you bulldoze enough buildings with people inside them, people get uptight whenever they see you coming with bulldozers. Bummer. Deal.

Cheap shot, and really off-topic.

...I imagine stones are fairly rare in the middle east.

Um, here in Washington State logging is quite a big industry. But if I were to look up and see a bunch of logs roll down a hill toward me on my way to my car, I would have to think some planning had taken place.:boggled:

[The Fool]

Cheap shot, and really off-topic.



Um, here in Washington State logging is quite a big industry. But if I were to look up and see a bunch of logs roll down a hill toward me on my way to my car, I would have to think some planning had taken place.:boggled:

Are you joining the rocks are being trucked in conspiracy theory?

[The Fool]

I hope I am missing some of the context of your posts, but do you really think that anti-semitic statements like this are a natural response to anything the Israelis have done in relation to the Temple Mount area?

so the next time someone here complains about something done by muslims you will be condemning it as a racist statement? was it the use of the word "usurpers" that makes it racist? The fact that it is wrong and no such plot of destruction and sabotage exists? What exactly does make it a racist statement? There is quite enough anti-semitism in this world without spreading and diluting the term to encompass just about any critical statement.

Much sillyness has gone on in and around this place for a long long time...on all sides....you do realise that?

[Schneibster]

I hope I am missing some of the context of your posts, but do you really think that anti-semitic statements like this are a natural response to anything the Israelis have done in relation to the Temple Mount area?I don't care what race they're a member of or what religion they espouse. I'm being contrarian. I see a lot of "stupid Palestinian" bashing going on. I agree they're stupid; if they weren't, they'd have stopped throwing rocks and started using Ghandi tactics, and the Israelis would be as big a pariah as South Africa was. As it is, they're blowing up little kids. But the Israelis aren't much better; they're bulldozing houses with people in them. It's about six of one and half a dozen of the other. If the Israelis were smart, THEY would be using the guilt tactics. Nobody's gonna stand by and let them get nuked; certainly the US won't, and I wouldn't if it were mine to say. The only way to make peace is to JUST DO IT. The time has to come when you turn the other cheek, and forget the injustice of it, and figure to take it out in trade later on. And take my word for it, whoever figures it out first will win.

ETA: Don't accuse this old liberal of being anti-semitic again; if you do, you'll guarantee I'll push the mute button on you. There are lots of people here who are more interesting to talk to than you are.

[steverino]

The only way to make peace is to JUST DO IT.

"JUST SAY NO TO DRUGS";)

[Schneibster]

"JUST SAY NO TO DRUGS";)Just say no to bulldozers? How about just say no to blowing yourself up to get a bunch of little kids?

But your point is good. It is very, very hard to take that first step.

[webfusion]

Are you joining the rocks are being trucked in conspiracy theory?

It is a fact that rocks and stones of decent sizes (not pebbles) are accumulated there in strategic piles, conveniently available for using as ammunition in rioting. This is not a 'conspiracy theory' but is well-known by everyone, especially the police. The cops know in advance that they will be facing serious barrages of coordinated major stone-throwing, not just a few pebbles picked up at random.

Here are the "trucks" that are used:
http://www.hobotraveler.com/182middleeast2005/00179.jpg
These are specially-designed tractors which are very narrow, to be able to fit into the alleys and passages of the Old City.

Here is a "rubble pile" on the Temple Mount:
http://www.jewishmag.com/42mag/templemount/Image8.jpg

Here is a bulldozer that the Arabs have used, in violation of the Status Quo, to construct a new mosque (in Solomon's Stables).
http://www.jewishmag.com/42mag/templemount/Image9.jpg

The entire venue is a cauldron of bubbling problems:
http://www.jewishmag.com/42mag/templemount/templemount.htm

and Nadav Shragai of Ha'Aretz explains the entire fiasco in an excellent article:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=824139&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4

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SezMe asked a good question earlier, about the "zoning plans" for the construction.
It so happens that the new bridge was not approved by the normal zoning procedures. You can read this article that Hanan Ashrawi writes for ATFP:
http://www.miftah.org/display.cfm?DocId=12674&CategoryId=32


Here is a photo of the work continuing today:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?blobcol=urlimage&blobheader=image%2Fjpeg&blobheadername1=Cache-Control&blobheadervalue1=max-age%3D300&blobkey=id&blobtable=JPImage&blobwhere=1170359821471&cachecontrol=never&ssbinary=true

[webfusion]

I guess if you bulldoze enough buildings with people inside them, people get uptight whenever they see you coming with bulldozers. Bummer. Deal.

Is that a claim that Israel routinely bulldozes houses with people inside them?

Evidence?

[The Fool]

It is a fact that rocks and stones of decent sizes (not pebbles) are accumulated there in strategic piles, conveniently available for using as ammunition in rioting. This is not a 'conspiracy theory' but is well-known by everyone, especially the police. The cops know in advance that they will be facing serious barrages of coordinated major stone-throwing, not just a few pebbles picked up at random.

Here are the "trucks" that are used:
http://www.hobotraveler.com/182middleeast2005/00179.jpg
These are specially-designed tractors which are very narrow, to be able to fit into the alleys and passages of the Old City.

Here is a "rubble pile" on the Temple Mount:
http://www.jewishmag.com/42mag/templemount/Image8.jpg

Here is a bulldozer that the Arabs have used, in violation of the Status Quo, to construct a new mosque (in Solomon's Stables).
http://www.jewishmag.com/42mag/templemount/Image9.jpg

The entire venue is a cauldron of bubbling problems:
http://www.jewishmag.com/42mag/templemount/templemount.htm

and Nadav Shragai of Ha'Aretz explains the entire fiasco in an excellent article:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=824139&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

SezMe asked a good question earlier, about the "zoning plans" for the construction.
It so happens that the new bridge was not approved by the normal zoning procedures. You can read this article that Hanan Ashrawi writes for ATFP:
http://www.miftah.org/display.cfm?DocId=12674&CategoryId=32


Here is a photo of the work continuing today:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?blobcol=urlimage&blobheader=image%2Fjpeg&blobheadername1=Cache-Control&blobheadervalue1=max-age%3D300&blobkey=id&blobtable=JPImage&blobwhere=1170359821471&cachecontrol=never&ssbinary=true
sigh.....
rocks exist, here are some pictures of rocks
trucks exist, here are some pictures of trucks....
there are rocks everywhere...there are rockthrowers everywhere....lets drop the conspiracy theories that there is a secret "throwing rock" supply line... Unless you actually have some evidence besides pictures of trucks and pictures of rocks. go outside....walk around....bend over...hey! its a rock! No conspiracy theory needed.

[The Fool]

Is that a claim that Israel routinely bulldozes houses with people inside them?

Evidence?

I like the way you inserted "routinely" .....that will be handy later when you can show that it doesn't happen "routinely" in order to refute something that was not a claim about anything being routine.

[steverino]

I like the way you inserted "routinely" .....that will be handy later when you can show that it doesn't happen "routinely" in order to refute something that was not a claim about anything being routine.

Schneibster said bulldoze "ENOUGH" buildings. The word "enough" suggests a routine, as in "If a chic screws ENOUGH dudes, a lot will step forward to claim he is the father.

[ceo_esq]

I like the way you inserted "routinely" .....that will be handy later when you can show that it doesn't happen "routinely" in order to refute something that was not a claim about anything being routine.

That "insertion" was a perfectly legitimate request for a clarification as to whether Schneibster would suggest that it does happen routinely. Schneibster's remark, which implied that Israel bulldozed occupied houses often enough for people to "get uptight", prompts the question of how often is often enough.

[ceo_esq]

Schneibster said bulldoze "ENOUGH" buildings. The word "enough" suggests a routine, as in "If a chic screws ENOUGH dudes, a lot will step forward to claim he is the father.

Basically the same reaction I had, except that I think your example works better in the other direction (if a dude screws enough chicks ...).

:D

[webfusion]

go outside....walk around....bend over...hey! its a rock! No conspiracy theory needed.

That's not the way it generally works with the palestinians as they instigate a riot. Maybe at the beginning of the first Intifada, way back in 1986, they just picked up whatever was lying around on the ground nearby, but that quickly gave way to an organized methodology of gathering rocks, bricks and bottles. You are claiming that these rocks are just picked up at random, whatever happens to be naturally available, and that's just not true. especially when rioting is planned in advance, which it often is (such as the Temple Mount rioting).
I have seen the rockthrowers' modus operandi up close and personal, and they do bring in supplies of rocks, to have them handy in strategic points.

Sometimes they employ trucks or tractors, sometimes even donkeys and donkey carts, sometimes just hundreds of kids go out and gather the best-sized rocks and bring them up to the front lines. Yes, there is a 'science' to rockthrowing, TF.

There is a very well-known element of premeditation and pre-determination and pre-placement of rocks, especially on the Temple Mount, where you have a vast open area that is like a clear platform. The organizers of rioting make sure they have a good supply of rocks beforehand, in mounds and piles, that are available to them at various strategic locations.

This article explains the system:
http://www.cricketsoda.com/subject/satire/rockthrowing/rocks.php

Proof enough?

}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
I'm still awaiting the clarification of Schneibster regarding Israeli Armed Forces demolishing buildings with people inside them. He absolutely seems to be saying it's common practice.

[The Fool]

That's not the way it generally works with the palestinians as they instigate a riot. Maybe at the beginning of the first Intifada, way back in 1986, they just picked up whatever was lying around on the ground nearby, but that quickly gave way to an organized methodology of gathering rocks, bricks and bottles. You are claiming that these rocks are just picked up at random, whatever happens to be naturally available, and that's just not true. especially when rioting is planned in advance, which it often is (such as the Temple Mount rioting).
I have seen the rockthrowers' modus operandi up close and personal, and they do bring in supplies of rocks, to have them handy in strategic points.

Sometimes they employ trucks or tractors, sometimes even donkeys and donkey carts, sometimes just hundreds of kids go out and gather the best-sized rocks and bring them up to the front lines. Yes, there is a 'science' to rockthrowing, TF.

There is a very well-known element of premeditation and pre-determination and pre-placement of rocks, especially on the Temple Mount, where you have a vast open area that is like a clear platform. The organizers of rioting make sure they have a good supply of rocks beforehand, in mounds and piles, that are available to them at various strategic locations.

This article explains the system:
http://www.cricketsoda.com/subject/satire/rockthrowing/rocks.php

Proof enough?

}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
I'm still awaiting the clarification of Schneibster regarding Israeli Armed Forces demolishing buildings with people inside them. He absolutely seems to be saying it's common practice.

Lol....love the link web.....

Maybe the Iranians are also airdropping in fresh rock supplies at night :)

[The Fool]

Schneibster said bulldoze "ENOUGH" buildings. The word "enough" suggests a routine, as in "If a chic screws ENOUGH dudes, a lot will step forward to claim he is the father.
steve...you need to get out more :)

[webfusion]

Never let it be said that I have no sense of humor!


And speaking of dropping things from high altitude:

----By The Associated Press----

Israeli excavations near the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem sparked angry reactions on Monday from Egyptian parliament members, including one (Mohammed el-Katatny) who said only a nuclear bomb could stop Israel.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/824984.html

"Nothing will work with Israel except for a nuclear bomb that wipes it out of existence"
--- his exact quote.

[webfusion]

The silence is deafening >>> after I post that outrageous comment from a neighbor of Israel, nobody has anything to say? Another case of dog bites man?

Meanwhile, in the news about the Mugrabi GAte:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/825463.html
Jerusalem: Mugrabi Bridge plan dropped for good. JDC shelves project.


UPDATE:
The Jewish Quarter Development Company, which owns the land on which the Western Wall Plaza stands, on Tuesday rescinded a decision made earlier in the day to completely abandon the contentious construction work at the Mugrabi Ascent in the Old City.

The company rescinded its decision under pressure from the Housing Ministry, the Prime Minister's Office, the Jerusalem munipality and the Western Wall Heritage Foundation.
The Housing Ministry issued a statement that said the construction work would continue as planned.

Thank you for coming by. See you again soon..

[gtc]

so the next time someone here complains about something done by muslims you will be condemning it as a racist statement? was it the use of the word "usurpers" that makes it racist?

Read the sentence again, the use of Jewish is the anti-semitic part. I guess the speaker hadn't read the anti-zionism is not anti-semitism memo. Also, since when is Muslim a race?


I'm being contrarian.

There is a difference between being contrarian and defending something that is stupid at best.

Israelis would be as big a pariah as South Africa was.

Are you sure that you are as even handed as you claim? (note this isn't an accusation of anti-semitism).

Nobody's gonna stand by and let them get nuked; certainly the US won't, and I wouldn't if it were mine to say.

Are you sure about that?

ETA: Don't accuse this old liberal of being anti-semitic again;

I didn't accuse you of being anti-semitic once. I asked what you thought about a statement made by someone else to try to find out why you were blaming Israel for the ridiculous actions of the Palestinians.

[gtc]

The silence is deafening >>> after I post that outrageous comment from a neighbor of Israel, nobody has anything to say? Another case of dog bites man?

Actually, this is an everyday occurrence. I am not too concerned: Egypt lacks the bomb (for now), Iran may be comforted (they won't be expecting many complaints from the arab world when they decide to drop the bomb on Israel) but I fully expect Iran to be dealt with (one way or another) before they gain the bomb.

[a_unique_person]

The silence is deafening >>> after I post that outrageous comment from a neighbor of Israel, nobody has anything to say? Another case of dog bites man?


I hadn't checked out this thread for a few days. It's outrageous, and it's wrong.

[webfusion]

Here is a different type of response to the Mugrabi Project that is in stark contrast to the Egyptian Parliamentarian's disgusting remarks (thanks, a_u_p, for going on record expressing your shock and displeasure) ---

Turkey Offers to Send Technical Team to Inspect Jerusalem Dig
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/826222.html
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Olmert had shown him photographs of the construction work, but had failed to convince him that it would not harm the holy sites there. Olmert agreed to a Turkish suggestion for a technical team from Turkey to inspect the site, Erdogan said.

Logical and proper skeptical response to this contentious issue.
Thank you, Turkey. We at the JREF salute you, for providing an example of an effective and appropriate investigation to review a subject that has, until now, been characterized by falsifications and hyperbole on the part of the Muslim community far and wide. James Randi must be proud of Mr Erdogan's approach to this. I know I am.

[webfusion]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4555807.html

Israel has begun a live internet webcam site (http://www.antiquities.org.il/home_eng.asp)with 24/7 live images from the controversial construction site.

"The Zionist enemy is engaging in trickery ... We don't trust these procedures," said Ismail Radwan, a spokesman for HAMAS.

WTF???? They don't trust their own eyes?

I can only imagine what their response will be after the results of the Turkish investigation is made public:
"The Turks are Zionist stooges." (http://tsi.idc.ac.il/rubin_notes_on.html)

[webfusion]

Mumbling to myself...

Protests continue to spread (now Srinagar, India, for instance):
"We appeal to Kashmiri Muslims to protest against the nefarious designs of Israel," Jamiat-ul-Mujahideen, a hardline militant group, said, in street protests that included burnt Israeli flags.


while in Jerusalem:
"Israeli history is drenched in blood," Israel Radio quoted Sheikh Raed Salah as saying. "They want to build their Temple while our blood is on their clothing, on their doorposts, in their food and in their water."

Ahhhhh, the standard blood libel, now added on top of their lie of destruction of the Mosques.

What's next?