Michael Savage on God and Science

[Upchurch]

Poor guy got fired from one of his jobs (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/entertainment/6251351.htm) recently. After reading the article, I went out to find what other little bits I could read about the man and I found this: (http://www.msnbc.com/news/921017.asp)God and science. Another lie of the left: Scientists do not believe in God. I, for one, have Ph.D. in science. I’m one. I’m a scientist and I believe in God. I have my bible here, and it’s not for show.
And here’s another book, it’s another good book — It’s called “The Savage Nation.” If these liberal idiots had read my book which hundreds of thousands of Americans have done, it would have made them smart enough to stop making moronic pronouncements such as scientists do not believe in God.
By the way, Albert Einstein, for those of you don’t know who he is — E=mc squared — Albert Einstein believed in God. I thought he was an atheist. Einstein said that at the end of his life when he tried to understand what was beyond the universe no matter how far his mind went he realized there had to be God. How do you like that one?
Does anyone see anything resembling a train of thought there? I see one unfounded strawman claim, easily shot down, a commercial plug for his book, finished by an unsupported appeal to authority (I think. Like I said, I'm not sure what his point is.)

With argumentive skills like that, it's not surprising they fired him.

edited to remove tag error.

[arcticpenguin]

But you forgot the most important factor: what were his ratings?

[Upchurch]

From the first link above:Aired at 5 p.m. EDT Saturday, Savage didn’t translate into a television hit. He increased the ratings for the time slot marginally, according to MSNBC.
How does this play into it?

[Dylab]

Einstein said that at the end of his life when he tried to understand what was beyond the universe no matter how far his mind went he realized there had to be God.

Not to bring up the whole Einstein and religion bit again but I read a lot of the stuff Einstein wrote and I never read anything that sounded like that. Have any of you?


Anyway why do people put this guy in the same boat as O'Reily. I'm not a big fan of O'Reily but compared to what I just read he is a genius.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Dylab
Not to bring up the whole Einstein and religion bit again but I read a lot of the stuff Einstein wrote and I never read anything that sounded like that. Have any of you?I hadn't, but I'm allowing for the possibility that Einstein wrote something to this effect that I was unaware of.
Anyway why do people put this guy in the same boat as O'Reily. I'm not a big fan of O'Reily but compared to what I just read he is a genius. Agreed. I can agree with maybe 5%-15% of what O'Reily says on any given day, but he sometimes tries to present his argument in a logical fashion. From what I've heard of Savage's radio show, it's almost pure knee-jerk conservatist venom. The statement that got him fired shows this to a T. Savage was taking viewer phone calls about airline horror stories, and a male caller began talking about smoking in the bathroom.

"Half an hour into the flight, I need to suggest that Don and Mike take your ..." the caller said, before he was cut off and his words became unintelligible.

"So you're one of those sodomists. Are you a sodomite?" Savage asked.

The caller replied: "Yes, I am."

"Oh, you're one of the sodomites," Savage said. "You should only get AIDS and die, you pig. How's that? Why don't you see if you can sue me, you pig. You got nothing better than to put me down, you piece of garbage. You have got nothing to do today, go eat a sausage and choke on it."It was completely off subject of what the caller was speaking about and Savage totally shut him down.

[Frostbite]

Anti-gay remarks? That was like a 4 page rambling. Why does that idiot get to write articles and host shows and not I?

[Ipecac]

The guy's an idiot.

God and science. Another lie of the left: Scientists do not believe in God. . . . it would have made them smart enough to stop making moronic pronouncements such as scientists do not believe in God.

Is this really what he said? :crazy:

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Ipecac
Is this really what he said? Check the link above.<hr>edited to add:

Interesting. I just found another article (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/03/05/savage/index_np.html). For years, he made a name cranking out a pile of books on alternative medicine, recommending bizarre remedies such as using vitamin C to stop AIDS and kicking cocaine with coffee enemas. ...er, right. :con2:

:roll:

[Jethro]

I thought that was a lie of the religious right?

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Check the link above.

My question was rhetorical, but I did click and realize I misread the paragraph in question. I thought he was saying that Scientists don't believe in god and then contradicting himself. My bad.

He's still an idiot, but I misunderstood why.

[livius drusus]

Einstein seems to have been something of a deist/pantheist. In his own words:

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.-- as quoted in Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings.-- as quoted in Einstein: The Life and Times, Ronald W. Clark

[arcticpenguin]

Michael Savage has apologised (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=638&ncid=762&e=1&u=/nm/20030708/en_nm/television_msnbc_dc) :

"If my comments brought pain to anyone I certainly did not intend for this to happen and apologize for any such reaction," Savage said on his Web site, (http://www.michaelsavage.com)

"I especially appeal to my many listeners in the gay community to accept my apologies for any inadvertent insults which may have occurred," he said.
...
"Let me repeat, this was an interchange between me personally and a mean-spirited, vicious setup caller which I thought was taking place off the air," Savage said. "It was not meant to reflect my views of the terrible tragedy and suffering associated with AIDS."


Gosh! Doesn't that sound sincere.

[Beebop]

I've always thought Savage was an overly credentialed person of marginal intellect. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
He's definitely stepped in it this time.

[RandFan,Jr.]

Originally posted by Dylab
Not to bring up the whole Einstein and religion bit again but I read a lot of the stuff Einstein wrote and I never read anything that sounded like that. Have any of you? Not quite,



"The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books---a mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects." --Albert Einstein

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." --Einstein
Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium (1941) ch. 13

“God may be sophisticated, but he’s not plain mean.” -- Albert Einstein.

Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish. --Albert Einstein


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In order to be an immaculate member of a flock of sheep, one must above all be a sheep oneself. --Albert Einstein


The following compile by BillyJoe

"Strange is our situation here on earth. Each of us comes for a short visit, not knowing why, yet sometimes seeming to divine a purpose. From the standpoint of daily life, however, there is one thing we do know: that man is here for the sake of other men -- above all for those upon whose smiles and well-being our own happiness depends. "


"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms. "


"I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it. "


"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. "


"It was the experience of mystery -- even if mixed with fear -- that engendered religion."


"Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being. "


"I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science.
My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God. "


"I believe in Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings."


"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

[Dancing David]

Micheal savage still needs to apologise to the sausage industry.

Where is Jedi Knight, doesn't he care for Mr. savage, I thought he was his grad student or something.

[Roadtoad]

If I recall, Einstein was fascinated by the work of Schopehauer, (which I thought was deadly dull, and negative), so I wouldn't exactly be singing Hallelujah just yet.

But then, that's par for the course for Savage. I heard him a couple of times, maybe, for a few minutes, and just gave up. The guy is a third rate Xeroxed copy of Rush Limbaugh typed on the 18th carbon. He has a PhD? Woopdie sh**. It's clear he hasn't done jack with it. It was a waste of paper.

Seriously, Upchurch, the guy's a loser. Why are you wasting your time on such a boob?

[Fun2BFree]

“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.” - Albert Einstein in 'Albert Einstein: The Human Side'

[Torment]

I'm fairly certain I would have read it if he had said anything along those lines. Probably just a rumor he heard.

Regardless though, starting to believe in god near the END of his life, is nothing I'd be surprised of.

Many atheists and other nonbelievers tend to pick up religion in their end days, if anything it just shows just goes to show you how much the fear of death is the driving factor for religious belief...

[Fade]

Many atheists and other nonbelievers tend to pick up religion in their end days, if anything it just shows just goes to show you how much the fear of death is the driving factor for religious belief...

Evidence of this? My personal experience would lead me to assume the opposite is true. As people get older, more and more drop their religion all together, while those that hang onto it seem to be 'more' religious, because they were they most religious ones in the first place.

[ceo_esq]

Sorry for lending impetus to the detour this thread's taken, but here's an interesting (and apparently well-documented) essay on the subject of Einstein's religious views written by a University of Edinburgh theologian:

"Einstein and God" (http://www.ctinquiry.org/publications/torrance.htm)

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Fade


Evidence of this? My personal experience would lead me to assume the opposite is true. As people get older, more and more drop their religion all together, while those that hang onto it seem to be 'more' religious, because they were they most religious ones in the first place. By which, I would have to counter, what is your rationale for that? When you say "as people get older", do you mean as they approach adulthood or as they become elderly? My experience is that, as people become elderly, they tend to become more religious in a Pascal's Wager sort of fashion.

Aside: Bill Cosby had a comedy routine where he compared his parents when he was a child to his parents when he had children. In trying to explain to his children what his mother was really like, the punch line was to the effect of "She's an old woman, now. She's trying to get in to heaven!"

The rationale is that as people get older and the possibility of their death gets nearer, they cling to the idea of self preservation, that they will exist in heaven (or hell) after their deaths. It isn't difficult to understand.

[arcticpenguin]

RE: Einstein quotes

Check out The Woo Woo Credo (http://www.watchingyou.com/woowoo.html), rule 36.

[Barkhorn1x]

Why is it so important to believers to prove that Einstein believed in a God that intervenes in human affairs, or at least that there is a God?? And why is so important for non-believers to “set the record straight”??

Really - here is where we are if either position is accurate;

1. He DID believe in a God = So what? This does not prove God’s existence any more than pointing to Jerry Fawell’s belief in God. This is mere “argument from authority”.

2. He DIDN’T believe in God = Again, so what? This doesn’t prove that God doesn’t exist - none of us can say that w/ 100% certainty for reasons well known to us all. This position merely echoes the view of many scientists (not all by any means) that the universe is best explained by natural as opposed to supernatural forces.

As far as Michael Savage is concerned - I’ve listened to his radio show on at least 5 occasions - and I can confirm that on each one he comes across as a hate filled right wing woo woo who hurls ad-homs at anyone who dares to disagree with his stilted world view, all the while unmercifully plugging away at his merchandise.

One wonders whether people listen (he DOES get high ratings on radio) because they agree w/ the garbage he is spouting or because it is fun to hear him make an ass out of himself yet again. I know I fall into the latter category.

Barkhorn.

[Brian the Snail]

I seem to remember that Einstein also had quite left-wing political views. So much so, that at one point he was suspected of having communist sympathies and investigated by the FBI. Given that obviously we should all follow Einstein in his religious views (as this Savage fellow seems to suggest), perhaps we can all follow him in his political views as well.

How do you like that one, Mr Savage?

[Fade]

By which, I would have to counter, what is your rationale for that? When you say "as people get older", do you mean as they approach adulthood or as they become elderly? My experience is that, as people become elderly, they tend to become more religious in a Pascal's Wager sort of fashion.

I already addressed this. My experience says people become less religious as they age into their 50s and 60s and beyond.

Which is why I asked for evidence, because all I have is what I've seen, and I am not a researcher nor a statistician so I probably don't have a good sampling.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Fade


I already addressed this. My experience says people become less religious as they age into their 50s and 60s and beyond.50 and 60 year olds are hardly elderly. Talk to 80 and 90 year olds and see how many you find that are religious.

[fishbob]

"If my comments brought pain to anyone I certainly did not intend for this to happen and apologize for any such reaction," Savage said on his Web site Translation: I'm sorry you are upset.

Sounds like a carefully calculated non-apology.

What a jerk.

[QuarkChild]

I wish, I wish, I wish I were dictator of the world.

(Shoot...I can't find a smiley that has one smiley-guy slapping another smiley-guy. )

Of course, if I was really dictator of the world, I wouldn't literally slap sense and decency into people. I would wow them with my Reason and inspire them to repent of their hatreds. And I would scold the hell out of them.
"Attention, unwashed masses! I am Dictator Quark! [points at Mr. Savage] YOU, fool, are a loathsome hypocrite!..."

Okay, maybe not. :) But I wish something could stop bigots like that.