Skepticism and your friends

[supercorgi]

Hi there,
I'm not sure how to handle friends who believe in woo. I don't want to alienate these people who are my coworkers and my friends. I want to introduce them to skeptical thinking but at the same time, I feel like such a killjoy and don't like the conflict my different beliefs entail. I have a coworker who is very much into woo beliefs. I doesn't help that she's of Chinese ancestry with all the traditional beliefs that entails. She thinks she has prescient dreams where she knows what is happening to her family. I try to tell her about confirmation bias and expect ions based on what you already know, but she thinks she has a gift. I don't want to get into conflict with her since we are the only 2 in the department, but I squirm every time she mentions her beliefs. How do other people handle this? How do you advance skepticism while maintaining your relationships?

[fuelair]

I go for smiling politely and staying calm. Usually, it isn't anything harmful to them (I will jump on bad medicine and related) and you/I are/am not going to stop the belief.

[Flange Desire]

Put up a poster of the FSM, and when asked about it, link her to the site.

If she later asks some more about the FSM (all praise his noodly appendage!), briefly state the viewpoint that one woo belief is as valid as another.

Then link her to the Skeptics Dictionary.

[Matilda]

Unless I think something harmful is going on, I generally don't comment unless I'm asked my opinion directly.

[rustytunes]

Depends on both the friend and the topic for me. But for astrology (for example) I make it clear that I don't believe in it, usually by way of joke. If I am pushed, I'm happy to give my reasons. Had that conversation with my elderly aunty recently. She thanked me sarcastically for ruining her favourite pastime - made me feel like s**t...

[Rcintron]

I like to tease my catholic/evangelic friends. I change my avatar to "the devil" when I talk to them using instant messengers. I also use expressions such as "Oh my baal", or "by baal" when talking to them.

[Garrette]

Kill them outright.

[Garrette]

A bit more seriously, it depends on the friend. I've a couple with whom I enjoy rousing debates in which we raise our voices and insult each other (I'm not kidding); it's a matter of respect that we can do that.

Others I occasionally gently prod with info and answer questions if asked.

Others I only discuss the topic if asked about it or if they press their views on me.

Still others I avoid it, even when being pressed by them about it.

The remainder, I kill outright.

[TobiasTheViking]

If she keeps bothering you about, why don't you just explain to her that you don't believe in it, and ask her to stop bringing the subject up unless she wants a discussion about it.

Then she can bring it up, and you can remind her that you don't believe in it, tell her why you don't believe in it, and if complains tell her that she can just stop bringing it up because it bothers you when she does.
or she can not bring it up, and you can both have piece.

Then it is her choice.

[Ryan O'Dine]

Tell her you'd like to discuss her ideas further, but would prefer to start from commond ground. Then give her the gift of a cheap paperback Carl Sagan.

If she won't read it, or isn't moved by him, would she ever listen to, or be moved by you?

(In other words, let Carl do all the hard work.)

[Amapola]

Boy, I feel your pain here. Usually I ask a bunch of pointed questions - how do they know that, what research have they done on that etc. Not only do I find out why they hold the belief, it points out to the person themselves whether or not they have done much research or understand the matter fully. Sometimes this will open discussion up in a more skeptical manner, with us both examining evidence.

Now, there are those who are not willing to listen to anyone and can't really be convinced by any evidence. For some strange reason some of these people also feel the need to preach their thoughts. (They may be trying to "convert" people to their way of thinking, perhaps because they barely believe it themselves and are anxious to see if they can get someone else to agree with them.) My personal feeling is that I won't push things on people and I don't want them to push things on me. Once I determine a person is not interested in polite discussion I try to politely avoid the subject and talk about something else where we do have common ground. If someone is really pushy though, being polite is no use and I simply have to tell them I am not interested in hearing about that particular subject. (It doesn't have to be about skepticism, some people are dying to tell everyone about their sex life or political views or whatever, and I am not interested in hearing about any of that. :) )

[supercorgi]

If she keeps bothering you about, why don't you just explain to her that you don't believe in it, and ask her to stop bringing the subject up unless she wants a discussion about it.

Then she can bring it up, and you can remind her that you don't believe in it, tell her why you don't believe in it, and if complains tell her that she can just stop bringing it up because it bothers you when she does.
or she can not bring it up, and you can both have piece.

Then it is her choice.

I try to gently introduce skepticism. She knows that I'm not a "believer." Such as when she said that she knew when her father would die. I asked her what she knew. She said she dreamed that her father would die that year. I pointed out to her that a year was a long time. I also pointed out to her that her father was seriously ill at the time. Not a big stretch of he imagination that he might die that year. I tried to introduce some skepticm, but she was adament about her beliefs. :(

[Ove]

Good subject. I generally don't argue with workmates confessing to woo-woo beliefs but on occations it gets too stupid. My job is to coordinate the laying of electric cables for a major electricity compagny (sorry don't know the precise english terms). Basically i negotiate with land owners and guide the digging teams. The foreman on one of those digging teams are a friendly chap but he insists he can dowse waterpipes. Now off course they have to watch out for buried waterpipes and as far as i know they haven't cut one yet but i put that more to experience than his dowsing skills. They also have professional metal detectors and use them but he claims he can do just as well with two pieces of metal...
I haven't challenged him seriously and i probably won't, that is until the day he cuts a waterpipe because his dowsing rods played tricks on him. He is an otherwise very nice fellow and i don't want to ruin our good cooperation.
You got to remember that you gain nothing by ridiculing their woo-woo beliefs but you may turn a otherwise friendly coworker against you.

[TheGline]

I have a number of friends who are intimately familiar with my stance on things -- I went from being agnostic to a fairly serious flirtation with Buddhism to staunch atheism and skepticism -- but one of the agreements I've come to is that I don't rank on their belief systems just 'cause, and they won't make fun of me in return.

I have close friends who pretty much span the spectrum of beliefs, and all I ask of them is that they not act as if I have something missing because I don't believe in a deity. And in return I won't chide them for their worldview. It's a pretty good deal.

[Mr. Stick]

Good subject. I generally don't argue with workmates confessing to woo-woo beliefs but on occations it gets too stupid. My job is to coordinate the laying of electric cables for a major electricity compagny (sorry don't know the precise english terms). Basically i negotiate with land owners and guide the digging teams. The foreman on one of those digging teams are a friendly chap but he insists he can dowse waterpipes. Now off course they have to watch out for buried waterpipes and as far as i know they haven't cut one yet but i put that more to experience than his dowsing skills. They also have professional metal detectors and use them but he claims he can do just as well with two pieces of metal...
I haven't challenged him seriously and i probably won't, that is until the day he cuts a waterpipe because his dowsing rods played tricks on him. He is an otherwise very nice fellow and i don't want to ruin our good cooperation.
You got to remember that you gain nothing by ridiculing their woo-woo beliefs but you may turn a otherwise friendly coworker against you.
Why don't you just play along and tell him how great you think it is that he has this incredible ability. Then tell him how he can easily win a whole million $! He'll probably think it's some kind of scam, but tell him the money's there, and that the JREF is legally obligated to pay up if he can demonstrate his alleged powers.

[ProbeX]

Amapola and TheGline, I totally agree with you.

It's crumby having to deal w anyone trying to proselytize, whether it's a faith-based person, skeptic or cynic. It's all about arrogance and ego it seems. And yup, I'm guilty as charged!

[SamanthaMc]

Hi there,
I'm not sure how to handle friends who believe in woo. I don't want to alienate these people who are my coworkers and my friends. I want to introduce them to skeptical thinking but at the same time, I feel like such a killjoy and don't like the conflict my different beliefs entail.

Something I have realized recently is lots of people don't want to think logically. They like being illogical. It is the most confounding thing ever to me. I am sure your friend thinks she is special because she has "premonitions". It's a lot more fun to think you can predict the future than to realize you are wrong and just experiencing confirmation bias. For some people, at least.

I don't like not knowing the truth about something. I like to know the "real deal". I am glad when someone shows me the error of my ways, and I am happy to change my opinion/belief, etc. But apparently lots of folks would really rather just believe what they believe.

My ex-mother-in-law is forever losing things. She prays that God/Jesus will help her find something, and lo and behold! God/Jesus just puts the exact location of the object right into her brain! I've asked her if it is possible that maybe just clearing her mind and focusing her thoughts on where she might have last had the object isn't what brought her to remember where it is, but oh no, it was the imaginary guy in the sky, of course!

So I don't think your co-worker wants you to be her skeptic mentor. I would abandon all hope of that.

As far as the squirming goes, I think you are just going to have to deal. Telling her to shut her pie-hole about woo stuff might cause some office friction. I handle such things by internally rolling my eyes, mentally substituting the words "imaginary friend" when they say "God/Jesus" (which makes me giggle), and basically enduring the diatribe until I can change the subject. If she sees you have no response when she starts in with the woo, but you are an engaging conversationalist otherwise, I bet you can end up subconsciously training her.

So, yeah. I am suggesting subliminal mind control. Great. A big help, I am.

[Amapola]

SamanthaMc, I like your last sentence! :D

I am imagining Supercorgi in the office with a clicker and some cookies, using operant conditioning on her coworker. Perfect! :D

[Dogdoctor]

As long as she isn't hurting herself or others I would just laugh it off as silliness. If she keeps trying to involve you in conversations about her powers I would not offer any feedback except for skeptical thoughts and perhaps say that I would rather not discuss that since we may just argue pointlessly about it. There are things more important than skepticism (for me) and those would be honesty and compassion and perhaps some other illogical stuff that I find necessary for a happy life.

[TheGline]

Something I have realized recently is lots of people don't want to think logically. They like being illogical.

I think it's more like, they're comfortable thinking that way and don't really understand firsthand the consequences of cognitive dissonance. Most people managed to shield themselves from such things through all the usual techniques -- post-hoc rationalization, for instance.

If someone is confronted with firsthand evidence of their cognitive dissonance, and they don't seem interested in learning from their mistakes, then there's a good chance they simply aren't going to. I'd like to believe they can, but it just doesn't always happen.

[SamanthaMc]

I think it's more like, they're comfortable thinking that way and don't really understand firsthand the consequences of cognitive dissonance. Most people managed to shield themselves from such things through all the usual techniques -- post-hoc rationalization, for instance.

If someone is confronted with firsthand evidence of their cognitive dissonance, and they don't seem interested in learning from their mistakes, then there's a good chance they simply aren't going to. I'd like to believe they can, but it just doesn't always happen.

I agree that they are more comfortable thinking the way they have always thought. However, I think that for certain people, they get some actual enjoyment in thinking that the world isn't an ordered and logical place; that there is room for magic and miracles.

I have a friend who can connect any random thing to God's presence. For example, one night he was trying to overcome his urge to call his pot dealer, and there was a knock at the door. It was some random guy asking him some random question. He took it as a sign from God that he shouldn't buy any more pot.

Yeah, okay, my stoner friend might not be a very good example. But in his everyday life, he is one of the more logical people I know. But he loves the idea that God is up there, listening to his every thought, prodding him to do the right thing and generally being available for him to talk to 24/7.

When I point out something completely ridiculous that he attributes to God, he feeds me the line, "The lord works in mysterious ways" or "We as mere mortals cannot possibly know the mind of such a tremendous being, yada, yada, yada." And he says these things with complete glee. He absolutely loves it.

The thing I don't understand is why people are so opposed to thinking. Why is it such a comfort to them to be able to say, "The bible tells me so," rather than thinking about it and answering logically? Why is thinking such a scary prospect?

But I digress. Maybe people are capable of learning from their mistakes, but I really don't think a lot of them want to. But then again, humans baffle me. I can't wait until the mothership comes back to rescue me from this wacky planet.

[TheGline]

I agree that they are more comfortable thinking the way they have always thought. However, I think that for certain people, they get some actual enjoyment in thinking that the world isn't an ordered and logical place; that there is room for magic and miracles.

This is a very on-target observation, and it connects with things I have observed on my own. Many such people seem to be horrified by the prospect of the "unweaving of the rainbow" -- that when you explain something, or attribute a scientific explanation to it, it puts them in the same position as the boy who cut his drum open to see what made it go bang.

I don't think mystery is a bad thing -- without it, the world doesn't feel like a place to make discoveries, I guess. What worries me is the idea that mystery should be compulsory, that there are some things that must remain behind a curtain because if we pull the curtain away life gets all drab and colorless. If the history of human discovery is any indication, the universe has only become a far more fantastic place for all of our urge to discover its real nature. I don't think the wildest fantasies of our ancestors could ever have encompassed things like black holes, neutron stars, DNA, quantum computing, or even something as "simple" as the smallpox vaccine.

Do people enjoy remaining ignorant? I don't think that's it. I think it's more a case of them wanting others to not be smarter than them, because then that means they're one-down.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I have a close woo woo friend who's a bit of a New Age hipster type and that's somethig I kind of like about her so I never say anything when she starts telling me about pychics predicting 9/11, dream meanings and Masaru Emoto fooling the UN into thinking that water...can talk. That's part of who she is and she wouldn't be her without it.

It's only when its something incredibly dangerous that I speak up, like alternative medicine.

[Pipirr]

I decided to come out on a Myspace page about two weeks ago.

So I made a small, tasteful page with some links out to screw loose change, stop sylvia browne and a statement of faith from Charles Darwin, and the song 'evolution rocks' by our very own Overman.

Told my friends and family about it, and now they all know. Well, they did before kinda, but now its definitive. Am that skeptical, sciency guy. And myspace is good for something :)