Obama isn't black enough...

[headscratcher4]

Ok, so there is some sort of media made-up controversy circulating around attempting to suggest that Obama won't necessarilly appeal to black Americans because he didn't experience the Afro-American experience. In other words, white mother and affrican immigrant father preclude him from understanding 400 years of oppression herritage, etc.

Now, what gets me isn't the argument. I don't really care about it. But, I saw a woman...an editor of the on-line Magazine Salon ... essentially making this argument, straight faced on the Colbert Report (he, on the other hand, was having a hoot with it all). Anyway, she called Obama and African African American. That's about the point I threw the TV out the window. African African American...did she here herself? Did she have any concept of how stupid that sounded.

African African American.

Rant done.

[hgc]

I saw that, and actually I do think she knew it sounds absurd. She was trying to make some point about black American cultural heritage - something that binds them together is their shared history (west African slave trade bringing their ancestors to America, and all that followed). It is undisputed that Obama does not flow from that heritage. I was not upset or offended by that claim. It makes perfect sense.

What I think is going on here is that some black Americans may feel that their moment in the sun, if Obama is elected, is illusionary. It doesn't vindicate their rise from slavery to full participation in America to have Obama elected, because he didn't come from that tradition. As an outsider, I think they're mistaken. First, there's the racial angle, strictly speaking. Obama may not be one of them by "black" heritage, but he sure is one of them by appearance and being African. Furthermore, he's spent his adult life deeply embedded in their mileau as a community organizer and activist.

The masses of white voters who may elect Obama president will be little aware of the distinction, and if it happens, that says a lot about where the black American community has come.

[PogoPedant]

Can I be a European European Scandinavian Sami Indian? Since I have a hint of Romani blood from way back in the family, but I'm mostly vanilla with a twist of indigenous.

[Darth Rotor]

In other words, white mother and affrican immigrant father preclude him from understanding 400 years of oppression herritage, etc.

Now, what gets me isn't the argument. I don't really care about it. But, I saw a woman...an editor of the on-line Magazine Salon ... essentially making this argument, straight faced on the Colbert Report (he, on the other hand, was having a hoot with it all). Anyway, she called Obama and African African American. That's about the point I threw the TV out the window. African African American...did she here herself? Did she have any concept of how stupid that sounded.

African African American.

Rant done.
In the 60's and 70's, Huey Newton used to decry "boot lickin' Uncle Toms." Being called a "Tom" was a perjorative when a Black Panther, or any activist plugging away for the Black cause, uttered it. To some, a Tom is any black to succeeds within the system, rather than remaining a true believer in the need for revolution from outside of the system. I had hoped such sentiments were waning, but maybe my hopes are ill founded.

Colin Powell was harshly criticized among some Black political leadership, during the mid 1990's, when there was some question as to his running for the GOP in 1996. He wisely declined. The perjoratives of "house n!gg3r" and "high yellow" surfaced now and again.

An interesting comment on the matter here.
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1096245d1ead3e561f.jpg
Two guys forced into a picture together
Yet Obama’s charm and eloquence have not wooed the old guard.

“They are basically jealous,” said a Democratic strategist who has not yet decided which candidate he intends to support. “They’ve been toiling in the trenches for decades, and along comes this son of a Kenyan farmer and suddenly he’s measuring the drapes in the Oval Office.”

Sharpton, 52, is widely considered to have no better chance of winning the Democratic nomination than in 2004, when he never amassed more than a few percentage points in the polls but still made a national impact with his barnstorming performances in the televised primary debates.

When asked about Obama’s likely candidacy, the preacher, renowned for outrageous self-publicising antics, shrugged: “Right now we’re hearing a lot of media razzle-dazzle. I’m not hearing a lot of meat, or a lot of content. I think when the meat hits the fire, we’ll find out if it’s just fat, or if there’s some real meat there.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1292678.ece
Hilliard brought in outsiders to campaign for him -- from New York. Like the Rev. Al Sharpton, who said, "Everybody that's our color is not our kind. Everybody that's our skinfolk is not our kinfolk."
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/07/01/pol.play.israel/index.html
(The ref is to the Hilliard-Davis race of 2002)
[/URL]"]Here is a more recent ref. ([URL="http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/columnists/william_douglas/16671383.htm?source=rss&channel=krwashington_william_douglas)
Sharpton urges blacks to vote issues, not skin color
'JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE OUR COLOR DOESN'T MAKE YOU OUR KIND'
By William Douglas
MCCLATCHY NEWSPAPERS

HAMPTON, Va. - African-American voters should judge Sen. Barack Obama and other 2008 presidential candidates on how they will handle issues affecting the African-American community and not on race, gender or ethnicity. That was the message of several key speakers yesterday at the annual State of the Black Union symposium. The two-day conference offered an examination of the progress the African-American community has made in this country and the problems still confronting it.

"I think the identity politics should not be based on race," said the Rev. Al Sharpton, a 2004 presidential candidate. "It should be based on agenda and policy -- who stands for our best interests. We cannot put our people's aspirations on hold for anybody's career, black or white."

As the conversation at yesterday's session shifted from health care to education to politics, it quickly went to Obama, who kicked off his presidential candidacy yesterday in Springfield, Ill. Among the panelists were two African-Americans who have run for president, Sharpton and the Rev. Jesse Jackson. Sharpton strongly urged the nearly 10,000 people who filled Hampton University's Convocation Center not to select a candidate next year just because they want to see an African-American or a woman or a Hispanic in the White House for the first time.

Without naming Obama, Sharpton added that "just because you're our color doesn't make you our kind." He pointed to President Bush's secretaries of State, Condoleezza Rice and Colin Powell, as examples of African-Americans he said haven't necessarily worked in the interest of the African-American community.
There was more, but this is enough.

Parochialism for fifty, Alex. :p

DR

[headscratcher4]

I this would make native Americans American Americans?

[bigred]

Did she have any concept of how stupid that sounded.No stupider than "African American" in the first place, IMO. Hell I know dark-skinned people from Central America who live here and call themselves that, railing about "the man" and "reparations" (ad nauseum). :rolleyes:

Really the whole "race thing" in this country has been laced - no, in fact saturated, if not practically defined - by stupidity from the get-go, and hasn't let up one bit. It just manifests itself in different ways (although the hypocrisy has grown exponentially). With such an emotional issue I can see that to an extent, but not this farcical extreme.

[Mephisto]

I think it's ironic that a racial group besieged by negative racial labels would stoop to using yet another label for an African born American. While calling Obama an African-African-American isn't quite like calling him an Uncle Tom, it does make a distinction with a negative connotation that can only hurt Obama's chances with Black voters.

Isn't politics a hilarious conglomeration of idiots? On one hand, Democrats are saying he doesn't have enough experience as a politician, on the other hand African-Americans are saying he doesn't have enough experience as a Black man because he's an American-African.

On the third hand (:)), Conservatives are saying they're "scared" of Obama in spite of their support of a President who has gotten us into a war without end, has ignored nuclear proliferation treaties, presided over the worst terrorist attack on the U.S., engaged in blatant cronyism, presided over major security violations during time of war, and who gets his guidance from, God . . .

And this is JUST the beginning!

[Mephisto]

I this would make native Americans American Americans?

Or simply Washington Redskins? ;)

[Luke T.]

Obama is an African African American. At least going by the church which he attends.


We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization.
A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

Their caps, not mine.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Not exactly the sort of thing that you want in a President of this country.

[Tricky]

Ok, so there is some sort of media made-up controversy circulating around attempting to suggest that Obama won't necessarilly appeal to black Americans because he didn't experience the Afro-American experience. In other words, white mother and affrican immigrant father preclude him from understanding 400 years of oppression herritage, etc.

Now, what gets me isn't the argument. I don't really care about it. But, I saw a woman...an editor of the on-line Magazine Salon ... essentially making this argument, straight faced on the Colbert Report (he, on the other hand, was having a hoot with it all). Anyway, she called Obama and African African American. That's about the point I threw the TV out the window. African African American...did she hear herself? Did she have any concept of how stupid that sounded.

African African American.

Rant done.
Yeah, I mentioned this in another thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2333449#post2333449). It was sad. Dickerson was probably the most humorless guest Colbert has ever had, and surely she realizes Colbert is a liberal playing a right winger. He was playing her like a fiddle. She makes it sound like being Black is a kind of exclusive group like the DAR (another group whose cliquishness I have no use for). How dare this Johnny-come-lately try to pretend he's suffered from racism at the hands of others too, I mean apart from Joe Biden.

And though she wouldn't come out and say it, it sounded strongly like she was calling him an Uncle Tom or an Oreo or something. She must have known that she was making him less appealing to Black voters. It was the closest thing I've ever heard to a real racist screed on Colbert, even from conservative guests. What a piece of work Debra Dickerson is.

[Mephisto]

Not exactly the sort of thing that you want in a President of this country.

Yeah, it's MUCH better to have a President whose administration supports torture, can tell whether a woman who has been in a persistent vegetative state for years is brain-dead, scoffs at science and the theory of evolution, ignores the environment, twiddles their thumbs during an impending storm that kills thousands in a major U.S. city . . .

[Luke T.]

Whites aren't the only ones who have a problem with Obama's race:

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/columnists/william_douglas/16671383.htm?source=rss&channel=krwashington_william_douglas

Without naming Obama, Sharpton added that "just because you're our color doesn't make you our kind." He pointed to President Bush's secretaries of state, Condoleezza Rice and Colin Powell, as examples of African-Americans he said haven't necessarily worked in the interest of the African-American community.


Sharpton also chided Obama for making his presidential announcement in Springfield rather than before the predominantly African-American audience at Hampton, and said the Illinois senator needs to declare "what's his embrace of our agenda."

[headscratcher4]

Obama is an African African American. At least going by the church which he attends.





Their caps, not mine.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Not exactly the sort of thing that you want in a President of this country.

As opposed to the secrete loyalty to Skull & Bones and Texas? ;)

[bigred]

Obama is an African African American. At least going by the church which he attends.Key words: the CHURCH he attends....ie not his denomination, which is not a "black" denomination (or specific to any ethnicity/color).

lol @ "We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black" - ah the Great American Double-Standard, alive and well :thumbup: Nobody will blink an eye at that, but just let some church say "We are a congregation which is Unashamedly White" and watch the fur fly.

PS if he gets nominated, you better believe somewhere in the order of oh 95-99% of all blacks will vote for him...."forgiving" that he's part white (heck in this country, partly black means black anyway).

[Luke T.]

Yeah, it's MUCH better to have a President whose administration supports torture, can tell whether a woman who has been in a persistent vegetative state for years is brain-dead, scoffs at science and the theory of evolution, ignores the environment, twiddles their thumbs during an impending storm that kills thousands in a major U.S. city . . .

And this has what to do with the topic?

[bigred]

Sharpton added You lost me at hello.

[bigred]

And this has what to do with the topic?Been away from JREF for awhile have ya?

[Darth Rotor]

As opposed to the secrete loyalty to Skull & Bones and Texas? ;)
Do you have a problem with a man being loyal to a state he was the governor of? If so, what is it?

I saw your winky smilie, but I stand by my question.

DR

[Luke T.]

Yeah, I mentioned this in another thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2333449#post2333449). It was sad. Dickerson was probably the most humorless guest Colbert has ever had, and surely she realizes Colbert is a liberal playing a right winger. He was playing her like a fiddle. She makes it sound like being Black is a kind of exclusive group like the DAR (another group whose cliquishness I have no use for). How dare this Johnny-come-lately try to pretend he's suffered from racism at the hands of others too, I mean apart from Joe Biden.

Stanley Crouch, black columnist:

What Obama isn't: black like me (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/467300p-393261c.html)

So when black Americans refer to Obama as "one of us," I do not know what they are talking about. In his new book, "The Audacity of Hope," Obama makes it clear that, while he has experienced some light versions of typical racial stereotypes, he cannot claim those problems as his own - nor has he lived the life of a black American.

[Mephisto]

And this has what to do with the topic?

Even if he were a member of the Flying Spaghetti Church what could he possibly do that would be worse?

[AmateurScientist]

Al Sharpton's comments mentioned above:


"I think the identity politics should not be based on race," said the Rev. Al Sharpton, a 2004 presidential candidate. "It should be based on agenda and policy -- who stands for our best interests. We cannot put our people's aspirations on hold for anybody's career, black or white."


Now that's a fine piece of doubletalk. Identity politics should not be based on race, but they should be based on who looks out for "our people's" aspirations. To whom is Sharpton referring when he says "our people?" Americans in general, or black Americans? I strongly suspect the latter. Nevetheless, he contends identity politics shouldn't be based on race. Brilliant.


Without naming Obama, Sharpton added that "just because you're our color doesn't make you our kind." He pointed to President Bush's secretaries of State, Condoleezza Rice and Colin Powell, as examples of African-Americans he said haven't necessarily worked in the interest of the African-American community.


Reminds me of how Maya Angelou was quoted in The New Yorker years ago for proclaiming that Bill Clinton was American's "first black President."

Good lord.

AS

[Tony]

I this would make native Americans American Americans?

LOL

I guess I should now refer to myself as a Scottish European White American American.

[Darth Rotor]

LOL

I guess I should now refer to myself as a Scottish European White American American.
Why do you hate American American American American Americans? ;)

DR

[Mephisto]

LOL

I guess I should now refer to myself as a Scottish European White American American.

I'm really confused now, does that make Arnold Schwartzenegger an Austrian-African-American? :)

[headscratcher4]

Do you have a problem with a man being loyal to a state he was the governor of? If so, what is it?

I saw your winky smilie, but I stand by my question.

DR


I hate Texas. ;) ;) (double winky smile).

[AmateurScientist]

That's about the point I threw the TV out the window. African African American...did she here herself? Did she have any concept of how stupid that sounded.

African African American.

Rant done.

Well said. I couldn't agree more with how stupid it sounds, and I hope it illustrates how stupid the whole "African American" descriptor is in the first place. It's also ridiculously stupid when used by PC journalists who refer to black persons in the UK as African Americans. Huh? An Englishman who is black is somehow American?

AS

[ponderingturtle]

Do you have a problem with a man being loyal to a state he was the governor of? If so, what is it?


Well it is to be expected, just like being loyal to anything that they where the CEO of.

[Darth Rotor]

I hate Texas. ;) ;) (double winky smile).
*Emily Latella voice*
Oh, that's different.

Never mind. :D

DR

[Charlie Monoxide]

Being an incurable news addict, I really dread this inane discusion (and the countless others and countless new ones) on Obama, and the "black" vote.

When some people post about this, I get the impression the underlying question is "hey, I'm not a racist, but what about all those other racists who seem so concerned about skin color?"

I saw that woman interviewed on Colbert. She really should remove her head from her butt and come up for some air, she seems severely oxygen-deprived.

Let's try to hate each other for reasons other than skin color.

After all, it's just politics, the entertainment division of the industrial-military complex ....

Charlie (props to Zappa for the last quote) Monoxide

[thaiboxerken]

maybe he needs to take lessons from Puff Daddy

[Tony]

Let me say that it's sad that what once would be regarded as a triumph for black freedom in America is now looked at through the prism of racialist ideology.

[Luke T.]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1292678.ece

How weird is this:

One analyst argued that a Sharpton candidacy would “put Obama on the spot” by forcing him to address awkward civil rights issues such as police brutality and racial profiling that he tends to steer clear of. One Democratic blogger argued that Sharpton was “just what the doctor ordered to keep Obama on the straight and narrow”.

I just posted yesterday in another topic a bill Obama sponsored (http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/legisnet92/status/920SB0375.html) in the Illinois Senate to fight racial profiling.

Requires the Department of State Police to provide training to State Police officers concerning sensitivity toward racial and ethnic differences. Requires the Illinois Law Enforcement Training Standards Board to provide for similar training for probationary police officers. Provides for a 4-year traffic stop statistical study based on information that must be recorded on the face of a uniform traffic citation, warning citation, or uniform stop card by State and local law enforcement officers. Provides that no reimbursement by the State is required for the implementation of any mandate created by this amendatory Act. Effective immediately.

And here's a bill he sponsored (http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/legisnet92/summary/920SB1788.html) requiring that in any case involving a homicide or certain sexual offenses, the interrogation must be taped.

His record is easy enough to look up.

[Luke T.]

Heh.

One Democratic blogger argued that Sharpton was “just what the doctor ordered to keep Obama on the straight and narrow”.

How loaded is that statement? Geez.

Do what Al says, Barak, or you will be labeled an Uncle Tom.

[mollyblack]

I know my black friends on LJ are up in arms about this, as most of them term it, b*llsh*t.

They consider Obama black enough. My friends that are "part" black are generally considered black, unless they're so light that they "look" white - in which case generally the black side of the family refuses to have anything to do with them because of this very issue.

And yes, since most of them are from non-slave pasts my darker skinned friends wouldn't fit in to that group either. One, for instance, has a Filipino mother and a Kenyan father who is some big big name in the Knights of Malta. Etc. He's lived a decent life and is getting (at 34) his PhD in Math in Iowa! So, does this mean that he hasn't had to deal with the "Black Experience?" Ha! As if. People that are prejudiced or racist are just as much so with him as they are with anybody his skin color. Same with my other friends.

It's just a cop out. And really I can't believe the machinery of this bull is getting ramped up so early.

[Luke T.]

It's just a cop out. And really I can't believe the machinery of this bull is getting ramped up so early.

I've been watching Obama since 2004 and have grown to admire him a great deal. As I mentioned in another topic, I wrote to him to pay my respects last year. I made a point of telling him I am a retired military man who has voted the straight Republican ticket all my life. Thought he would appreciate that. :)

Anyway, what I admire is that he is facing tremendous obstacles under fire and holding up well. He's got enemies from both camps putting him in their sites (yes, that's a pun). He has to please the black agenda hacks, and he has to not offend or "scare" Whitey. A very, very fine line he has to walk.

As a result, Obama has to work not the proverbial "twice as hard", but four times as hard, as anyone else. He has to guard every spoken word. The pressure must be enormous.

So whatever his politics, I watch with what I must admit is glee as he makes his way across the battlefield. It's like, "Wow! Look at him go!"

I find it fascinating.

So major props to the man.

I must admit I harbor a fear that he is wearing a mask and that it will slip and we will discover he's a raving left-wing nutjob. But that's the Republican in me. :)

[steverino]

lga.gov/legislation/legisnet92/status/920SB0375.html]bill Obama sponsored[/url] in the Illinois Senate to fight racial profiling.

Looks like that was back in '01. I wonder if he is doing anything anymore in Illinois now that he's gone national.:boggled:

[Luke T.]

Looks like that was back in '01. I wonder if he is doing anything anymore in Illinois now that he's gone national.:boggled:

Actually, I thought about the fact that was in 2001. Makes it less likely that he did it for Presidential aspiration purposes, don't you think?

[Hutch]

It's just a cop out. And really I can't believe the machinery of this bull is getting ramped up so early.


Slow news period, I guess, Molly. Iraq is the same old same old-bombings and shootings, Bush is in the early throes of lame-duckism, and there can only be so many stories on how much snow there is in upper New York. Obama is fresh, relatively unknown, and it looks like everybody has an opinion to express, no matter how il-thought out or not, and is willing to say it loudly and often in front of the camera.

Sadly, it will get worse. I may have to look into another overseas job to get away from the drumbeat of politics...

BTW, Happy birthday Tony, you're my favorite Knucklehead on the Political Forum (and yes, that is a compliment)

[Dave1001]

Ok, so there is some sort of media made-up controversy circulating around attempting to suggest that Obama won't necessarilly appeal to black Americans because he didn't experience the Afro-American experience. In other words, white mother and affrican immigrant father preclude him from understanding 400 years of oppression herritage, etc.

Now, what gets me isn't the argument. I don't really care about it. But, I saw a woman...an editor of the on-line Magazine Salon ... essentially making this argument, straight faced on the Colbert Report (he, on the other hand, was having a hoot with it all). Anyway, she called Obama and African African American. That's about the point I threw the TV out the window. African African American...did she here herself? Did she have any concept of how stupid that sounded.

African African American.

Rant done.

Maybe Obama isn't black enough. Maybe Obama isn't white enough. But can anyone deny he's mulatto enough? biracial enough? brown enough?

[steverino]

Actually, I thought about the fact that was in 2001. Makes it less likely that he did it for Presidential aspiration purposes, don't you think?

Let's not get carried away Luke. Maybe he had his sights set on the '04 national senate race. There was a high profile racial profiling case in suburban Chicago at that time (An affluent white suburb next to the suburb where I grew up.) Jesse Jackson was all over it. And the incident predated Obama's bill by a mere nine months.

http://www.adversity.net/policefire_2_highland_park.htm

[Tony]

BTW, Happy birthday Tony, you're my favorite Knucklehead on the Political Forum (and yes, that is a compliment)

I'll try not to let it go to my head. :)

[BPSCG]

Teresa Heinz Kerry is an African American. You can look it up.

[Tony]

Teresa Heinz Kerry is an African American. You can look it up.

Is she American African American? European African American? Or just good ole fashion African American?

[gnome]

I must admit I harbor a fear that he is wearing a mask and that it will slip and we will discover he's a raving left-wing nutjob. But that's the Republican in me. :)

"Holy cow, it's Ramsey Clark! I can't believe we almost elected you president!"
"And I would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for you meddlers!"
:D

[rikzilla]

Obama reminds me of that character from Get Smart...the evil "Chaos" agent known as "Simon-the-likeable".

You end up liking him due to his insurmountable charm...but hey...he's EVIL!

-z

[bigred]

Teresa Heinz Kerry is an African American. You can look it up.

From American Heritage dictionary:

African American: A Black American of African ancestry.

:confused: uhhh OK....but what is a "Black American"....

(From WordNet)
an American whose ancestors were born in Africa

:rolleyes:

Translation: EVERYONE is African American, as all of us originate from Africa. ie the term is pointless.

What was so horrific about "black" anyway?

[Luke T.]

Let's not get carried away Luke. Maybe he had his sights set on the '04 national senate race. There was a high profile racial profiling case in suburban Chicago at that time (An affluent white suburb next to the suburb where I grew up.) Jesse Jackson was all over it. And the incident predated Obama's bill by a mere nine months.

http://www.adversity.net/policefire_2_highland_park.htm

Ahhhhh. Interesting. Thanks!

[gnome]

I must admit I harbor a fear that he is wearing a mask and that it will slip and we will discover he's a raving left-wing nutjob. But that's the Republican in me. :)

"Holy cow, it's Ramsey Clarke! I can't believe we almost elected you president!" :fred:
"And I would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for you meddlers!"
:D

[Luke T.]

"Holy cow, it's Ramsey Clark! I can't believe we almost elected you president!"
"And I would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for you meddling kids and your dog!"
:D

Fixed it. :D

[Luke T.]

Slow news period, I guess, Molly.

Hey, if someone announces nearly two years ahead of time that they are running for Prez, there shouldn't be any cries of moral outrage at being attacked so soon.

Easier to shoot them down now before they gain momentum.

[Beerina]

Ok, so there is some sort of media made-up controversy circulating around attempting to suggest that Obama won't necessarilly appeal to black Americans because he didn't experience the Afro-American experience. In other words, white mother and affrican immigrant father preclude him from understanding 400 years of oppression herritage, etc.

Now, what gets me isn't the argument. I don't really care about it. But, I saw a woman...an editor of the on-line Magazine Salon ... essentially making this argument, straight faced on the Colbert Report (he, on the other hand, was having a hoot with it all). Anyway, she called Obama and African African American. That's about the point I threw the TV out the window. African African American...did she here herself? Did she have any concept of how stupid that sounded.

African African American.

Rant done.

I got news for her -- it ain't just "oppression".

I worked in a large office (~1500 people) with technical and business people there. One of the guys I worked with was an African American (of very dark skin if it makes a difference for this discussion), a "normal" US citizen (no parents directly from other countries, again relevant apparently), who had a PhD and had gone to MIT.

My wife (who worked with me at the time) and I were walking down the hall behind two younger AA's, who were, quite literally, the mail girl and mail boy. They were taking between themselves and making fun of this guy.

You're the god damned mail delivery peons, and this is your "day job", you're not even in college. And you dare make fun of another guy who got a PhD from MIT in computers for being black?!?!?


Un-F****** believable. Un-f****** believable.

[Luke T.]

I got news for her -- it ain't just "oppression".

I worked in a large office (~1500 people) with technical and business people there. One of the guys I worked with was an African American (of very dark skin if it makes a difference for this discussion), a "normal" US citizen (no parents directly from other countries, again relevant apparently), who had a PhD and had gone to MIT.

My wife (who worked with me at the time) and I were walking down the hall behind two younger AA's, who were, quite literally, the mail girl and mail boy. They were taking between themselves and making fun of this guy.

You're the god damned mail delivery peons, and this is your "day job", you're not even in college. And you dare make fun of another guy who got a PhD from MIT in computers for being black?!?!?


Un-F****** believable. Un-f****** believable.

The Bucket Of Crabs Syndrome, a.k.a. The Tall Poppy Syndrome.

ETA: http://www.greggriffin.com/Editorials/CrabBucket.htm

His story in the opening paragraph is most likely made up since I've heard it many times from various sources. But it makes the point.

[BPSCG]

What was so horrific about "black" anyway?It's racist.

[bigred]

It's racist.ah thx, my bad.

By golly, nobody better call me "white." :mad:

[Luke T.]

It's racist.

Yeah. I remember thinking how "Black is Beautiful" was such a racist slogan for the Klan to come up with in the 60s. Totally over the top.

[hgc]

It's racist.
That is not the reason it was dropped. I have never heard anyone state that the use of "black" is racist, even when "African American" is preferred. The new term, popularized by Jesse Jackson, is desired because it is formed the same way as other ethnic identifiers are formed. I still use "black" because it's easier on the tongue and still easily understood. No one has ever complained.

[rikzilla]

That is not the reason it was dropped. I have never heard anyone state that the use of "black" is racist, even when "African American" is preferred. The new term, popularized by Jesse Jackson, is desired because it is formed the same way as other ethnic identifiers are formed. I still use "black" because it's easier on the tongue and still easily understood. No one has ever complained.

That's enough out of you whitey.




























































gotcha! ;)
-z

[Tony]

It's racist.

It's much more acceptable to call them "noir".

[bigred]

That is not the reason it was dropped. I have never heard anyone state that the use of "black" is racist, even when "African American" is preferred. The new term, popularized by Jesse Jackson, is desired because it is formed the same way as other ethnic identifiers are formed.
Which other ethnic identifiers are these? It is extremely rare that I've ever heard people talk about "Irish Americans" etc etc. Usually they're just lumped in as "white."

I guess it's time to get the phrase "European American" going eh?

[Tony]

Which other ethnic identifiers are these? It is extremely rare that I've ever heard people talk about "Irish Americans" etc etc. Usually they're just lumped in as "white."

I guess it's time to get the phrase "European American" going eh?

What barn in what country do you live? "Irish-American", "Italian-American" and "German-American" all have long histories of being used as ethnic indentifiers in the USA.

[hgc]

Which other ethnic identifiers are these? It is extremely rare that I've ever heard people talk about "Irish Americans" etc etc. Usually they're just lumped in as "white."

I guess it's time to get the phrase "European American" going eh?
You ought to get out more. You're missing a lot.

[Luke T.]

Which other ethnic identifiers are these? It is extremely rare that I've ever heard people talk about "Irish Americans"

Stick around for 32 more days, laddie.

[BPSCG]

It is extremely rare that I've ever heard people talk about "Irish Americans" etc etc. Usually they're just lumped in as "white." We call them "Mick Papists" around here.

[hammegk]

LOL

I guess I should now refer to myself as a Scottish European White American American.
Not a bit of Irish, too?

[bigred]

My wife (who worked with me at the time) and I were walking down the hall behind two younger AA's, who were, quite literally, the mail girl and mail boy. They were taking between themselves and making fun of this guy.
er I give up: what were they making fun of? If it was something like a "kick me" sign on his back, it mighta been justified. :cool:

[bigred]

You ought to get out more. You're missing a lot.You say that like it's a bad thing.

Seriously where is it commonplace to refer to people of European descent as (whatever) Americans? Micks, whops, chicos - for crying out loud, keep it simple. ;)

[Luke T.]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Seriously where is it commonplace to refer to people of European descent as (whatever) Americans? Micks, whops, chicos - for crying out loud, keep it simple. ;)

But most Americans probably do know their heritage. I'm French-Irish-American, for example. My dad is all about the Irish part, never mentions the French part, even though our last name is French in origin.

But you wouldn't know my heritage unless I told you. An African-American, well, he doesn't have to say anything. It's right there on his face, literally.

Because of slavery, though, African-Americans only know what continent from which their ancestors originated. They don't know anything beyond that as far as what tribe/nation/etc., unless they do what Alex Haley did.

And since they are a minority, a long oppressed one, it makes more sense to bind together on a continental level anyway.

The Negro of the United States has lost even the remembrance of his country; the language which his forefathers spoke is never heard around him; he abjured their religion and forgot their customs when he ceased to belong to Africa, without acquiring any claim to European privileges. But he remains half-way between the two communities, isolated between two races; sold by the one, repulsed by the other; finding not a spot in the universe to call by the name of country, except the faint image of a home which the shelter of his master's roof affords.

Alexis de Tocqueville.

[hgc]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Seriously where is it commonplace to refer to people of European descent as (whatever) Americans? Micks, whops, chicos - for crying out loud, keep it simple. ;)
Where? In polite company I guess. It's not just the Euros, but others too (much to the dismay of Pat Buchanan). You know, Korean Americans and the like.

Btw, wop is spelled without the h.

[Luke T.]

More from Alexis:

It is important to make an accurate distinction between slavery itself and its consequences. The immediate evils produced by slavery were very nearly the same in antiquity as they are among the moderns, but the consequences of these evils were different. The slave among the ancients belonged to the same race as his master, and was often the superior of the two in education and intelligence. Freedom was the only distinction between them; and when freedom was conferred, they were easily confounded together. The ancients, then, had a very simple means of ridding themselves of slavery and its consequences: that of enfranchisement; and they succeeded as soon as they adopted this measure generally. Not but that in ancient states the vestiges of servitude subsisted for some time after servitude itself was abolished. There is a natural prejudice that prompts men to despise whoever has been their inferior long after he has become their equal; and the real inequality that is produced by fortune or by law is always succeeded by an imaginary inequality that is implanted in the manners of the people. But among the ancients this secondary consequence of slavery had a natural limit; for the freedman bore so entire a resemblance to those born free that it soon became impossible to distinguish him from them.

The modern slave differs from his master not only in his condition but in his origin. You may set the Negro free, but you cannot make him otherwise than an alien to the European. Nor is this all we scarcely acknowledge the common features of humanity in this stranger whom slavery has brought among us. His physiognomy is to our eyes hideous, his understanding weak, his tastes low; and we are almost inclined to look upon him as a being intermediate between man and the brutes. The moderns, then, after they have abolished slavery, have three prejudices to contend against, which are less easy to attack and far less easy to conquer than the mere fact of servitude: the prejudice of the master, the prejudice of the race, and the prejudice of color.

He was spot on.

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/1_ch18.htm

[Ace_of_Sevens]

The thing that gets me about the term "African American" is all the times I've heard some clueless whitey use it to refer to Seal, or Nelson Mandella or someone else who isn't American at all.

[fishbob]

I this would make native Americans American Americans?

Apparently all of us who live in America are African Americans.
http://www.primates.com/homo/outofafrica.html

[bigred]

Where? In polite company I guess. It's not just the Euros, but others too (much to the dismay of Pat Buchanan). You know, Korean Americans and the like.

Btw, wop is spelled without the h.In politically correct company, more like. To each their own, I guess I just hang with a less PC crowd. If ethnicity even comes up - and it rarely does - people just say "I'm Irish" or "I'm half Italian, half French" - that kind of thing. We don't try to mush it into some ridiculously unweildy label like "I'm an Italian French American." IMO the whole "_______ American" label-making is just plain silly.

But regardless, thx for the spelling correction. Geez and I'm part Italian, how embarrassing :cool:

[bigred]

The thing that gets me about the term "African American" is all the times I've heard some clueless whitey use it to refer to Seal, or Nelson Mandella or someone else who isn't American at all.I've heard clueless homies do the same thing.

Don't they know Mandella is an African African? sheesh

[bigred]

Apparently all of us who live in America are African Americans.
http://www.primates.com/homo/outofafrica.html

lol - exzachary, somebody gets it.

[hgc]

But regardless, thx for the spelling correction. Geez and I'm part Italian, how embarrassing :cool:
I decided to go find out a little more about wop. I was always under the impression that it's origin was from the acronym for "without papers."

Much more interesting though, from Merriam-Webster:

Etymology: Italian dialect guappo swaggerer, tough, from Spanish guapo, probably from Middle French dialect vape, wape weak, insipid, from Latin vappa wine gone flat

[bigred]

I decided to go find out a little more about wop. I was always under the impression that it's origin was from the acronym for "without papers."

Much more interesting though, from Merriam-Webster:

Etymology: Italian dialect guappo swaggerer, tough, from Spanish guapo, probably from Middle French dialect vape, wape weak, insipid, from Latin vappa wine gone flat
racist.

[hgc]

racist.
Your response is typical of a partial Flat Wine American.

[bigred]

Your response is typical of a partial Flat Wine American.
shut up or I'll smack you w/an old pepperoni stick.

[Tony]

shut up or I'll smack you w/an old pepperoni stick.

Please keep your old pepperoni stick in your pants.

[Region Rat]

I decided to go find out a little more about wop. I was always under the impression that it's origin was from the acronym for "without papers."

Much more interesting though, from Merriam-Webster:

Etymology: Italian dialect guappo swaggerer, tough, from Spanish guapo, probably from Middle French dialect vape, wape weak, insipid, from Latin vappa wine gone flat

I just watched a documentary about Ellis Island on PBS within the last month, and the definition they gave for WOP was in fact "With out papers", referencing the many italians who were coming over at the time with little more than the clothes on their backs. I never knew where the term came from, and I've passed on this tidbit to a bunch of people since then. Oh well.

As to Guapo (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092086/quotes):

Jefe: We have many beautiful pinatas for your birthday celebration, each one filled with little surprises!
El Guapo: How many pinatas?
Jefe: Many pinatas, many!
El Guapo: Jefe, would you say I have a plethora of pinatas?
Jefe: A what?
El Guapo: A *plethora*.
Jefe: Oh yes, El Guapo. You have a plethora.
El Guapo: Jefe, what is a plethora?
Jefe: Why, El Guapo?
El Guapo: Well, you just told me that I had a plethora, and I would just like to know if you know what it means to have a plethora. I would not like to think that someone would tell someone else he has a plethora, and then find out that that person has *no idea* what it means to have a plethora.
Jefe: El Guapo, I know that I, Jefe, do not have your superior intellect and education, but could it be that once again, you are angry at something else, and are looking to take it out on me?

:D

[Smidge]

Waaaay later than the ahead-of-the-rest-thinking JREF mems, The Guardian newspaper has this story today...

http://http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2023808,00.html - Headline: Is Obama black enough?

Maybe they borrowed the idea from here.

BTW what's wrong or right or not right or whatever with simply being AMERICAN? I'm always amused by Americans saying 'I'm Irish', or Italian or whatever. I'm old fashioned about that kinda thing - I'm actually really bleedin Irish right?!

[bigred]

BTW what's wrong or right or not right or whatever with simply being AMERICAN? Nothing, but you have to specify what "kind" of American you are so we can all think of ourselves as equal and not get wrapped up in the differences.

:rolleyes:

[Smidge]

OK - I still don't get why Americans like or are eager to qualify what type/kind of American you are.

I was very surprised at the questions Obama was asked in the article I posted the link to above:

" During an interview with CBS's Steve Kroft, who is white, just two weeks ago, the line of questioning went as follows:

Kroft: Your mother was white. Your father was African?
Obama: Right.

Kroft: You spent most of your life in a white household?
Obama: Yeah.

Kroft: I mean, you grew up white.
Obama: I'm not sure that would be true. I think what would be true is that I
don't have the typical background of African-Americans . . .

Kroft: You were raised in a white household?
Obama: Right.
Kroft: Yet at some point, you decided that you were black?"


So, at some point did Americans decided that they were a certain 'kind' of white, ie, Irish-American, Italian-American - honestly, it sounds somewhat ludicrous.

I can understand people who want to demonstrate that they have a specific history and/or heritage but by identifying yourself as such doesn't mean that you have any connection or knowledge of that.

Any Irish-Americans I've met scare the hell out of me. Their idea of what Irish culture is has never existed. Or worse they are the truly scary ignorant ones who believe in funding certain causes to 'free Ireland'.

I certainly don't know any people in Ireland who say, eg, I'm Irish-Chinese or Italian-Irish. More often they would say, eg, 'My grandfather or parents was/is Chinese but I was born here - I'm Irish'.

So why can't Americans simply be Americans without qualifying it?

[RandFan]

If Bill Clinton, a white man, could be the first black president (http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/clinton/morrison.html), why can't Obama be second? I don't get it.

[Dave1001]

OK - I still don't get why Americans like or are eager to qualify what type/kind of American you are.

I was very surprised at the questions Obama was asked in the article I posted the link to above:

" During an interview with CBS's Steve Kroft, who is white, just two weeks ago, the line of questioning went as follows:

Kroft: Your mother was white. Your father was African?
Obama: Right.

Kroft: You spent most of your life in a white household?
Obama: Yeah.

Kroft: I mean, you grew up white.
Obama: I'm not sure that would be true. I think what would be true is that I
don't have the typical background of African-Americans . . .

Kroft: You were raised in a white household?
Obama: Right.
Kroft: Yet at some point, you decided that you were black?"


So, at some point did Americans decided that they were a certain 'kind' of white, ie, Irish-American, Italian-American - honestly, it sounds somewhat ludicrous.

I can understand people who want to demonstrate that they have a specific history and/or heritage but by identifying yourself as such doesn't mean that you have any connection or knowledge of that.

Any Irish-Americans I've met scare the hell out of me. Their idea of what Irish culture is has never existed. Or worse they are the truly scary ignorant ones who believe in funding certain causes to 'free Ireland'.

I certainly don't know any people in Ireland who say, eg, I'm Irish-Chinese or Italian-Irish. More often they would say, eg, 'My grandfather or parents was/is Chinese but I was born here - I'm Irish'.

So why can't Americans simply be Americans without qualifying it?

Isn't your question rather arbitrary? Why can't they be world citizens? Organisms? Pieces of the cosmos? Why do people integrate gender as part of their identity? On the other hand, why not do any of these things? My biggest question, why would anyone want everyone to do the exact same thing? You really want 300 million American citizens all defining themselves as American without qualifications, variations, twists? That's the scariest thought of all to me.

[AmateurScientist]

If Bill Clinton, a white man, could be the first black president (http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/clinton/morrison.html), why can't Obama be second? I don't get it.

Thanks for that link. I've been erroneously attributing Toni Morrison's declaration to Maya Angelou. It's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

Once I first heard that assertion in The New Yorker years ago, I immediately thought, "So it's not about skin color after all, is it?" What is so often termed racism in the US is actually about culture and political ideology, not race. Clarence Thomas and Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice are excellent examples of not being black to some folks. They are black Republicans and conservatives. Within the populist notion of "blackness" in so much of the US, "black conservative" is simply an oxymoron. Of course, it's also absurd to make such a claim.

Each of the persons I mentioned are old enough and "black" enough to have experienced racism growing up, and to some extent still do today. If that's not bad enough, they also have to deal with allegations by too many other black persons (and some liberal whites as well) that they are "race traitors" and have forgotten their roots. I loathe such allegations and find them deeply insulting to their targets and to black persons in general. The implicit message is that black persons are too stupid to think for themselves, or to chart their own courses in life, and that they must subscribe to some monolithic "black" ideology and lifestyle.

Stuff it, "blackness" proponents. You cannot chastise persons you believe to be racists for stereotyping black persons and simultaneously chastise black conservatives for being "race traitors" without being hypocrites of the highest order. In other words, STFU. I'm looking at you, Toni Morrison.

AS

[RandFan]

Thanks for that link. I've been erroneously attributing Toni Morrison's declaration to Maya Angelou. It's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

Once I first heard that assertion in The New Yorker years ago, I immediately thought, "So it's not about skin color after all, is it?" What is so often termed racism in the US is actually about culture and political ideology, not race. Clarence Thomas and Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice are excellent examples of not being black to some folks. They are black Republicans and conservatives. Within the populist notion of "blackness" in so much of the US, "black conservative" is simply an oxymoron. Of course, it's also absurd to make such a claim.

Each of the persons I mentioned are old enough and "black" enough to have experienced racism growing up, and to some extent still do today. If that's not bad enough, they also have to deal with allegations by too many other black persons (and some liberal whites as well) that they are "race traitors" and have forgotten their roots. I loathe such allegations and find them deeply insulting to their targets and to black persons in general. The implicit message is that black persons are too stupid to think for themselves, or to chart their own courses in life, and that they must subscribe to some monolithic "black" ideology and lifestyle.

Stuff it, "blackness" proponents. You cannot chastise persons you believe to be racists for stereotyping black persons and simultaneously chastise black conservatives for being "race traitors" without being hypocrites of the highest order. In other words, STFU. I'm looking at you, Toni Morrison.

ASGreat post.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Can someone please quote Popeye? ;)

[bigred]

So why can't Americans simply be Americans without qualifying it?Because morons and stupidity, not to mention some strangely dire need to reinforce one's importance or "special-ness" socially, are rampant here.

This is news?

[mollyblack]

One friend who is black has a Kenyan father and a Filipino mother. He is not African-American. He is (and uses the term about himself and others in PhD program that are as well) black. He is not a Kenyan-Filipino American. Not by his standards anyway.

And when I went to Ireland and backpacked around with him, (he's short and black and wears bright raver clothes and I'm taller than him and had pink hair at the time) we had NO problems finding lifts with people that had room in their cars. I love and miss Dublin. He was black then and I was "pinky!" or some such names by people who found something easy to identify me by.

[Smidge]

Isn't your question rather arbitrary? Why can't they be world citizens? Organisms? Pieces of the cosmos? Why do people integrate gender as part of their identity? On the other hand, why not do any of these things? My biggest question, why would anyone want everyone to do the exact same thing? You really want 300 million American citizens all defining themselves as American without qualifications, variations, twists? That's the scariest thought of all to me.
Honestly, I don't think so (in answer to the 'arbitrary' q).

I genuinely think of myself as Irish. It makes sense to me.

Why shouldn't an American think of themselves as American, without a qualification? If you're born in the US, grew up there, went to school there and have US experiences as your reference point, why not?

I know Brits think of themselves of British and some will say they're specifically English. Scots may say 'I'm Scottish' firstly rather than saying their British. The Welsh may do so also.

But in my various travels, broad reading and various conversations etc, etc, I can't think of another nationality that does this 'qualifying' thing. For example, do Canadians do this also?

World citizenship is, to put it in very simplistic terms, a nice idea. Sorry – I’m not trying to disparage the idea – but I don’t think it’s realistic or could actually work today. I like and enjoy my Irish-ness!

I wasn't particularly wondering about nationality or specific identity (which is more personal and complicated) but why, (and it seems I'm alone on this!), I hear Americans specifying a 'heritage' (for wont of a better word) than simply saying ‘American’.

Also, this seems particular to America (the USA, if you will) that this occurs. Maybe other people have more information and experience about this, personal or otherwise.

I’d very much like to hear it.#


And when I went to Ireland and backpacked around with him, (he's short and black and wears bright raver clothes and I'm taller than him and had pink hair at the time) we had NO problems finding lifts with people that had room in their cars. I love and miss Dublin. He was black then and I was "pinky!" or some such names by people who found something easy to identify me by.
I'm really glad you both enjoyed your experience here, ie, Ireland!

Incidentally, were you hitch-hiking? I would NEVER hitch-hike in Ireland. Well, not since I was much younger - just goes ta show ya!