Vanishing twins: the surviving twins speak out [Archive]

Althea hayton

14th February 2007, 08:57 AM

Hi people

You seem to be a sceptical lot, well, what do you make of my new book? I need some feedback on whether I have gone just a little bit TOO far!
Here are the details (off the latest press release.)

Survivors of 'Vanishing Twin' Phenomenon Tell the World how They
Remember Life in the Womb

A new book, edited by Althea Hayton, tells the untold story of how it really feels to be the survivor when a co-twin twin dies in the womb -- a "wombtwin" survivor. In her anthology: "Untwinned: perspectives on the death of a twin before birth," Althea Hayton has opened up the inside story of how it feels to be a "wombtwin" survivor: ie., to be the survivor of "vanishing twin" phenomenon or if a co-twin is stillborn. One in 8 people are a wombtwin survivor -- that is a lot of people. Furthermore, experts now know that the loss of a twin before birth can cause psychological problems, such as suicidal thoughts, eating disorders and depression.

St. Albans, UK (PRWeb) February 11, 2007 -- A new book, edited by Althea Hayton, tells the untold story of how it really feels to be the survivor when a co-twin twin dies in the womb -- a "wombtwin" survivor. In her anthology: "Untwinned: perspectives on the death of a twin before birth," Althea Hayton has opened up the inside story of how it feels to be a "wombtwin" survivor: ie., to be the survivor of "vanishing twin" phenomenon or if a co-twin is stillborn. One in 8 people are a wombtwin survivor -- that is a lot of people. Furthermore, experts now know that the loss of a twin before birth can cause psychological problems, such as suicidal thoughts, eating disorders and depression.

This is a brave new book on a brand new topic that is now in the news. Recent TV coverage of multiple pregnancies, showing unborn twin and triplet foetuses interacting with one another, begs the question: "Do we remember the womb?" There has never before been a book about the psychological effects of losing one's twin before birth, yet most of this information has been available for decades. It is hard to believe that someone could miss a twin they only knew in the womb, but these articles and stories reveal the truth.

Althea Hayton is a writer and counsellor and has studied surviving twins for many years. She has gathered together articles, papers and stories about:
-The death of a twin at birth or before
-"Vanishing twin" phenomenon
-Whether or not we can have memories from the womb
-The psychological effect of being the surviving twin

Louis G. Keith MD PhD, President, Centre for the study if Multiple Birth, Chicago, USA, has provided a foreword. "This book could not have been published at a better time. We are in the middle of an epidemic of twinning," he says. "The author is to be congratulated for her persistence in researching a difficult and little discussed topic which has broad social and ethical implications for all of society."

Many well-known people know they are wombtwin survivors: Jim Broadbent and Justin Timberlake both lost a twin sister at birth. Living through that does leave a deep impression.

"It can be a great gift or a curse. Wombtwin survivors are deeply sensitive and empathetic and many of them are geniuses. However, there can be a dark side -- depression and self sabotage," says Althea. "If there is the smallest chance that some psychological problems are related to the time before birth, then we should at least be asking questions about the mother's pregnancy before we decide what is wrong."

[All feedback welcomed....]

Althea

RSLancastr

14th February 2007, 09:18 AM

Survivors of 'Vanishing Twin' Phenomenon Tell the World how They Remember Life in the Womb"

And how exactly do they do that?

"It can be a great gift or a curse. Wombtwin survivors are deeply sensitive and empathetic and many of them are geniuses. However, there can be a dark side -- depression and self sabotage," says Althea.What proof do you have that "wombtwin survivors" are any more prone to match this description than the general public would be?

Sorry, but the whole thing seems like a topic invented solely for the purpose of selling a book.

DangerousBeliefs

14th February 2007, 09:24 AM

One in 8 people are a wombtwin survivor -- that is a lot of people.

You lost me here.... 1 in 8? Evidence?

Otherwise, I'm sure it's very entertaining ancedotal stories gathered by folks who seem in desperate need of grant money.

Irony

14th February 2007, 09:26 AM

Phil

14th February 2007, 09:35 AM

I think it would be best to establish that the phenomenon exists before we start going doing studies on its effects. I'm not saying that pre-birth memories are impossible, but is there any actual evidence to support that these memories are from the womb as opposed to them being created after being told about the twin later in life?

Gotta agree with Irony on this one. Establish that the phenomenon actually exists first.

I seem to recall a bad TV movie about Elvis Presley where he often spoke to his dead twin brother. Anybody see that one?

gerdbonk

14th February 2007, 03:09 PM

You lost me here.... 1 in 8? Evidence?

Even if she's referring specifically to people who were carried as twins, it appears 1 out of 8 would be high.

I couldn't find a study specific to twin survival, but this paper (http://www.greenjournal.org/cgi/content/full/98/1/57) documents a study of preterm birth patterns among twins which surveyed 2516 twin births. There were 73 stillbirths and 2443 live births. That's not quite 3%.

rwguinn

14th February 2007, 03:43 PM

Even if she's referring specifically to people who were carried as twins, it appears 1 out of 8 would be high.

I couldn't find a study specific to twin survival, but this paper (http://www.greenjournal.org/cgi/content/full/98/1/57) documents a study of preterm birth patterns among twins which surveyed 2516 twin births. There were 73 stillbirths and 2443 live births. That's not quite 3%.
Eric Frank Russell, anybody? Eustace is everywhere.

TheGline

14th February 2007, 04:14 PM

I think the topic is potentially interesting, but I would caution strongly against inflating it to the size of a phenomenon. It sounds like something best explored in individual cases, not described as a "1-in-8" thing (which, as other people in this thread have stated, sounds very much like a number that has no real citation to back it up).

logical muse

14th February 2007, 04:21 PM

Furthermore, experts now know that the loss of a twin before birth can cause psychological problems, such as suicidal thoughts, eating disorders and depression.

Can you show us the evidence for this? Eating orders and depression are common enough that the evidence for pre-birth twin-loss being the cause would need to be pretty compelling.

Luke T.

14th February 2007, 04:33 PM

http://www.ourbollywood.com/PressReleases/release19502.php

Luke T.

14th February 2007, 04:39 PM

You lost me here.... 1 in 8? Evidence?

Otherwise, I'm sure it's very entertaining ancedotal stories gathered by folks who seem in desperate need of grant money.

Heh. If you think 1 in 8 sounds crazy...

Dr. Charles Boklage studied reports of 325 twin pregnancies and found that 61 ended as twins, 125 as singletons and the remaining 186 as a complete loss -- a measure of how risky twin pregnancies are. "Somewhere in the vicinity of 10 to 15 per cent of us -- that's a minimum estimate -- are walking around thinking we're singletons when in fact we're only the big half", according to Boklage. He estimates that for every set of twins born alive, there are at least six singletons who are survivors of twin conceptions.

And it gets even spookier...

'Possibly some of us are twins who are walking around in a single body,' Boklage says...Occasionally, blood donors are found to be carrying two different blood types: it could mean that fraternal twins merged in the womb. Of course, there is no way to determine whether identical twins have merged, since their genes and blood types are the same. In those cases, the twins don't vanish; they amalgamate."

After I gave a talk on the VTP, a woman came up to me and said, "Now I know what's happening to my husband. This explains it!" She told me that her husband was occasionally "different, somehow" -- he looked the same, but there was something wrong. It was most apparent to her when they made love. One day she asked him if he really was her husband, and he replied imperiously, in a loud, flat voice: "We will not speak of that again!" It frightened her the woman to the extent that she never did. She told me, "They're switching him. Now I know for sure." According to his mother, this fellow was a VTP survivor.

http://www.rainbowsunlimited.com/VanishingTwins.htm

Ladewig

14th February 2007, 04:41 PM

I agree with the other posters.

I would also like to point out that higher numbers of mental and emotional problems might not be caused by the pre-birth memories, they might be the result of the parents constantly reminding the surviving child that he or she is the surviving child. If you had a study that showed that people who never knew they were surviving twins had significantly higher rates of problems, then I would definitely take notice.

Luke T.

14th February 2007, 04:41 PM

In that last link is a discussion about resorbtion. A nice convenient loophole to back up the 1 in 8 figure.

Luke T.

14th February 2007, 04:44 PM

Some etymology:

As early as 1945, the Text of Obstetrics mentioned the possibility of many more twins being conceived than born, but the VTP received its current name in 1980 at the Third International Congress on Twin Studies held in Jerusalem. When the subject was raised, one of the congress participants cried out, "Vanishing twins!"

Madalch

14th February 2007, 04:56 PM

I have read of this before, but in a book that I did not consider to be particularly scientific. It also claimed that twins are often telepathic, and that adopted children who are not twins but are close in age also develop the same telepathy.

The story that struck me the most was blaming the homosexuality of a particular set of twins on the memory of a Y-chromosome-carrying sperm being rudely shoved out of the way by an X-carrying one, so the twins turned out to be female when they were "meant" to be male.

And the egg apparently remembered this.

Just thinking

14th February 2007, 05:33 PM

'Possibly some of us are twins who are walking around in a single body,' Boklage says...Occasionally, blood donors are found to be carrying two different blood types: it could mean that fraternal twins merged in the womb. Of course, there is no way to determine whether identical twins have merged, since their genes and blood types are the same. In those cases, the twins don't vanish; they amalgamate."

Without a doubt, that idea has to be one of the 10 creepiest things I've come across in my life.

ponderingturtle

14th February 2007, 05:40 PM

Without a doubt, that idea has to be one of the 10 creepiest things I've come across in my life.

But that is quite true it really happens. There was a case where a womans kids where going to be taken from here because dna tests showed that they were not hers. Fortunately she was pregnant at the time and this one also was tested after being born and it was also that other womans child.

How common this is, is not known, as it is hard to test for.

Sleepy

14th February 2007, 05:47 PM

I remember way back... me and millions of my brother sperm marched into battle. It was a slaughter. Only one survivor. I'll never get over it. :(

Luke T.

14th February 2007, 06:21 PM

But that is quite true it really happens. There was a case where a womans kids where going to be taken from here because dna tests showed that they were not hers. Fortunately she was pregnant at the time and this one also was tested after being born and it was also that other womans child.

How common this is, is not known, as it is hard to test for.

The idea behind "amalgamation" in the context of this VTP site, though, is that it results in two personalities (souls?) inhabiting one body.

gerdbonk

14th February 2007, 06:37 PM

Some etymology:
As early as 1945, the Text of Obstetrics mentioned the possibility of many more twins being conceived than born...

I read one site that said it is not unheard of to detect two embryo sacs during an early term ultrasound, with a later ultrasound showing only one sac. Ultrasounds that early (about 8 to 10 weeks) are not recommended.

Is this a frequent occurance in human gestation -- multiple fertilized eggs with only one surviving early development to become viable? I don't know. I am not an expert on any of this. But that seems to be a practical question that can be researched.

The "let's sell some books" issue is the blaming of all your troubles on some "vanished twin". It's the "repressed memories" rigmarole repackaged. Substitute "dead twin" for "forgotten abuse" and here we are.

Yahzi

14th February 2007, 06:45 PM

I'm not saying that pre-birth memories are impossible,
Ok, I will.

Pre-birth memories are impossible.

To be specific, you are asserting that many people are unaware that they had a twin. This requires that the other fetus was terminated before the parents were aware of it. For this to be the case, it must be very early in the development of the fetus.

At that early stage of development, it is impossible to form memories.

Therefore; what I think of the book is: [rule 8].

:)

tkingdoll

14th February 2007, 07:06 PM

I'm not going to comment on the premise, I'm going to comment on how badly written the 'press release' (and the entire OP) is. If you want your ideas to have even a semblance of credibility, the very first thing to do is make sure you don't write like a simpleton.

Flange Desire

14th February 2007, 10:28 PM

Hi people

You seem to be a sceptical lot, well, what do you make of my new book? I need some feedback on whether I have gone just a little bit TOO far!
Here are the details (off the latest press release.) ...
SNIP
....
[All feedback welcomed....]

Althea

Althea, are you sure you really want feedback from a skeptic's forum?
My guess is that you are actually seeking some cheap publicity.
But you could prove me wrong on this by rationally addressing some of these points (mostly already raised by other posters) vis ...

Firstly, what do you mean by "gone TOO far"?
Do you mean "is it believable"?
Surely that will be decided by the readers of the book when they see the evidence that you provide in it - I mean to say, one don't just make up some stuff and paste it in the book does one?

The press release boldly states "One in 8 people are a wombtwin survivor..."
Any evidence for this gem?

The press release states that you have "studied surviving twins for many years" and have knowledge [by implication] of "Whether or not we can have memories from the womb".
What was your conclusion regarding whether we can have memories from the womb?
Do you have any evidence (not anecdotes) for any memories prior to age 1 year?

I note that you are the editor of the book, but not the author.
One might guess that the book is a collection of anecdotes.
Does the book contain anything at all that is not likely to be a case of False Memory Syndrome?

And lastly, how do you feel about those that encourage and perpetuate FMS?

athon

14th February 2007, 11:40 PM

I wonder if this is a post and run in an attempt for cheap publicity.

If the author was truly interested in a skeptical viewpoint, the place for questioning would be right back at information gathering stage, not post publishing. By this stage she would hardly be truly open to criticism in the sense that her beliefs are open to being swayed. I'd hope that by the time anything of mine was being published I'd have my facts straight.

As some have pointed out here, to call this a phenomena is premature without any evidence. And already, by stating that there are prenatal memories, the claim runs contrary to what we know about memory development and would therefore need enough evidence to contradict established knowledge. And I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Athon

Cuddles

15th February 2007, 04:14 AM

Is this a frequent occurance in human gestation -- multiple fertilized eggs with only one surviving early development to become viable? I don't know. I am not an expert on any of this. But that seems to be a practical question that can be researched.

It seems quite likely that it is much more common (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg17223134.600-and-then-there-was-one.html) than previously thought, and in fact the 1/8 statistic doesn't sound at all unbelievable. This actually has much bigger implications than just sounding a little creepy. Recent research has shown that a huge number of people do are not actually related to their fathers, with some very interesting correlation to wealth and social status. However, if there are a large number of people with DNA from unborn twins it is likely that the amount of infeidelity is actually a lot less than the statistics would indicate. Unfortunately it is hard to detect chimeras since the "foriegn" DNA will often only be present in very specific places and not the rest of the body.

DangerousBeliefs

15th February 2007, 06:03 AM

It seems quite likely that it is much more common (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg17223134.600-and-then-there-was-one.html) than previously thought, and in fact the 1/8 statistic doesn't sound at all unbelievable. This actually has much bigger implications than just sounding a little creepy. Recent research has shown that a huge number of people do are not actually related to their fathers, with some very interesting correlation to wealth and social status. However, if there are a large number of people with DNA from unborn twins it is likely that the amount of infeidelity is actually a lot less than the statistics would indicate. Unfortunately it is hard to detect chimeras since the "foriegn" DNA will often only be present in very specific places and not the rest of the body.

Sorry, but an article is not evidence (and it states 1 in 20, which still sounds way way too high).

Large number of people with DNA from an unborn twin? Evidence?

Althea hayton

15th February 2007, 07:32 AM

Phew!

I had no idea what an amazingly responsive group you are! Thanks so much for that feedback. I'll answer all the posts at once, if that is OK.

I did expect scepticism, because that is what I get, usually. I have spent so much time in the last 5 years with surviving twins- who of course are more grateful then they are sceptical - that I knew I had lost sight of what the rest of the world may think about this, so this forum seemed the ideal place to come. You have all clarified this very clearly. Thank you.

I have just got back from the TV studios in London, they are showing a film about multiple pregnancy (on ITV1 in the UK) tonight and they wanted me to speak on the news about the psychological effect of being a surviving twin.

So the idea is now out there.

It probably wasnt fair on you to throw a strange book that you have never seen at you and leave you to guess about it and then ask for a response (based on what would appear to be a VERY badly written press release!!)
However it was good to get the first reaction.

Now here is more: Yes, it is an anthology of papers by doctors, therapists and surviving twins themselves, all very scholarly with references etc. where appropriate. If you aren't exhausted already, maybe you would like to continue with this discussion in the light of this information?

By the way, I met a parent of a vanished twin and the uncle of one in the space of 40 mins only this morning in the TV studios. They are everywhere. 1 in 8 is just about right it seems. (Charles Boklage's paper about these statistics is in the book. That is his idea: blame him if you will. He is a geneticist in the US and highly respected.)

In answer to one post: I edited and printed this book at my own expense because it was the best (but not the only) way to get this very helpful information into the public eye. I don't particularly care if they don't sell - I have plenty of money. I just want to be able to go on having conversations like this - and help wombtwin survivors to heal.

Oh yes. Another thing: I have a website; people come to me and tell me their story. I don't go to them. I know nothing about them. They all tell me the same kind of thing, often using exactly the same words. Explain that if you will!

Althea

Luke T.

15th February 2007, 07:47 AM

By the way, I met a parent of a vanished twin and the uncle of one in the space of 40 mins only this morning in the TV studios. They are everywhere. 1 in 8 is just about right it seems.

Do you not understand the nature of evidence for a claim? "They are everywhere" is not evidence. That is a CLAIM.

Do you have any scientific evidence you can link to that says "one in 8 people are a wombtwin survivor"? Otherwise you sound like you are making that up out of whole cloth.

Pointing to people who claim to be a wombtwin survivor, or related to a wombtwin survivor, or who parrots the same claim that one in eight people are wombtwin survivors, is NOT evidence. They are all CLAIMS.

Even a doctor who says one in eight people are wombtwin survivors without providing evidence is doing nothing more than making a CLAIM. That is what is known as "arguing from authority" and is useless as evidence.

Second, do you have any scientific evidence that people remember events from the womb into adulthood? Or is this just another CLAIM?

Third, do you understand the principle of False Memory Syndrome and how false memories can be reinforced, thereby making people even more deluded, and therefore more sick? Do you understand that some people just flat-out LIE to get attention?

Before you go any further with this VTP stuff, you might want to pause and think about just how much catastrophic damage you may be doing to yourself and to others.

Luke T.

15th February 2007, 07:57 AM

Althea, have you ever looked into the stages of infant development? Not fetal. Infant.

I strongly suggest you study actual scientific data on the physical, physiological, mental, and emotional development of infants. Focus especially on their awareness of themselves as entities and their surroundings.

I think you will find it is impossible for someone to have had any kind of awareness whatsoever of a fellow twin in the womb.

Geez, if I was a paranoid conspiracy theorist, I'd say this was a plot by pro-life extremists.

And before you take that wrong, I am pro-life. I am also the father of twins.

Wolfman

15th February 2007, 08:00 AM

By the way, I met a parent of a vanished twin and the uncle of one in the space of 40 mins only this morning in the TV studios. They are everywhere. 1 in 8 is just about right it seems. (Charles Boklage's paper about these statistics is in the book. That is his idea: blame him if you will. He is a geneticist in the US and highly respected.)
I'm gonna' skip the rest of what you wrote, and just focus on this. The idea is ludicrous on the face of it. We are expected to accept this statistic "because so-and-so said so". I'm afraid that this won't do; I can easily find "scientists" and "professionals" who will cite "proofs" for things like alien abductions, psychic communication with intelligences on Jupiter, etc.

The first evidence to me of how weak your case is is simply the fact that you do not provide us with any actual concrete information or evidence; just a "so-and-so said so" response.

As gerdbonk stated -- using concrete statistics, not just referring to what someone else claims -- studies of over 2500 twins showed around 3% actually having a "missing twin".

The overall rate of twins -- both identical and fraternal -- in the U.S. is 12 per 1000, or 1.2% (source (http://parenting.ivillage.com/pregnancy/pmultiples/0,,midwife_48g2,00.html)). So that means that 3% of 1.2% of Americans have a "missing twin". That comes out to 0.036% of the population. Compare that to your claim that it is 12.5% of the population. Your figure is 347 times higher than any statistics I can find would indicate.

That's one hell of a margin of error. And not one that anyone here is likely to accept just because we're told "so-and-so said it".

ponderingturtle

15th February 2007, 08:10 AM

Phew!

I had no idea what an amazingly responsive group you are! Thanks so much for that feedback. I'll answer all the posts at once, if that is OK.

Althea, aren't you aware that the real reason for this all is that the wombtwins are being abducted by aliens? That seems to fit all the data perfectly.

If it wasn't for the aliens abducting the twin, they would make it to full gestation.

LeCynthia

15th February 2007, 08:23 AM

Wow, I must be a womb survivor. I'm smart, lonely, and depressed at times. Plus I met seven people today who were not so the odds are with me. So, how do I fix it? Adopt a sister who is exactly like me? Blood transfusion?

ETA: Oh, wait, I must buy your book? So, you make me think I have a problem then sell me the cure? I think there used to be a name for that. I think it started with an S and rhymed with fake soil.

Orangutan

15th February 2007, 09:00 AM

suicidal thoughts, eating disorders and depression

These are very common conditions and can be caused by a lot of different factors. How do you know that it is correlated and not co-incidental to the phenomena you describe. Correlation does not equal causation.

That said however I would not rule out bad parenting in affecting the psyche of some children. Although not exactly the same, when Salvador Dalí was five, he was taken to his brother's grave and told by his parents that he was his brother's reincarnation, which he came to believe. This seemed to haunt him for the rest of his life. If A child is told that they shared a womb with a twin that died I would expect that to have a very disturbing effect on a young mind.

However to tell an adult with psychological problems, "Oh didn't you know, you were supposed to be twins but one of you died, that's why you have the issues you do." Is just magical thinking. Sorry.

Ladewig

15th February 2007, 09:20 AM

Now here is more: Yes, it is an anthology of papers by doctors, therapists and surviving twins themselves, all very scholarly with references etc. where appropriate. If you aren't exhausted already, maybe you would like to continue with this discussion in the light of this information?

Yes, I would like to continue the discussion in light of that information. Please let me know when you will be supplying citations to support that information and we can continue the discussion.

Ripley Twenty-Nine

15th February 2007, 09:21 AM

You have all clarified this very clearly.Sweet fanciful Moses! Please tell me you didn't write this book yourself!

chillzero

15th February 2007, 09:23 AM

If A child is told that they shared a womb with a twin that died I would expect that to have a very disturbing effect on a young mind.

Absolutely - similarly the whole absorption thing.

My introduction to this concept was through Stephen King's book "The Dark Half", and I remember the idea that I might be a mix of 2 people blended together before birth gave me the creeps for a long long time. That's without being told by my parents that that's what happened (I should maybe add that I have never been told this about myself - it's just the idea of it :boggled: ), so I can't imagine how that would affect people who are in this situation.

hipparchia

15th February 2007, 09:33 AM

Vincent Van Gogh was the name of a person who was born exactly one year before the painter of the same name. The first Vincent died shortly after birth, and the second one received the same name. Biographies mention the painter visiting his brother's grave as a kid.

Luke T.

15th February 2007, 09:48 AM

There's a scene in the movie L.A. Story where Steve Martin and his new girlfriend hear another couple having raucous sex in the hotel room next to theirs. Later, Steve Martin finds out it was his ex-girlfriend having sex with another guy he knows, and he confronts the guy.

"But you almost broke through our wall! You know how that made me feel?"

"You didn't even know it was me!"

"Yeah...but I projected back when I found out."

casebro

15th February 2007, 09:52 AM

Did anybody mention that the 'surviving twin's' problem just may be echos of the 'dead twin's' defects? The problems that caused the dead one to be re-sorbed?

Moochie

15th February 2007, 09:57 AM

Phew!

I had no idea what an amazingly responsive group you are! Thanks so much for that feedback. I'll answer all the posts at once, if that is OK.

I did expect scepticism, because that is what I get, usually. I have spent so much time in the last 5 years with surviving twins- who of course are more grateful then they are sceptical - that I knew I had lost sight of what the rest of the world may think about this, so this forum seemed the ideal place to come. You have all clarified this very clearly. Thank you.

You're welcome, I'm sure.

I have just got back from the TV studios in London, they are showing a film about multiple pregnancy (on ITV1 in the UK) tonight and they wanted me to speak on the news about the psychological effect of being a surviving twin.

Good for you -- should do heaps for your sales.

So the idea is now out there.

What idea, exactly?

It probably wasnt fair on you to throw a strange book that you have never seen at you and leave you to guess about it and then ask for a response (based on what would appear to be a VERY badly written press release!!)
However it was good to get the first reaction.

My first reaction isn't fit to print.

Now here is more: Yes, it is an anthology of papers by doctors, therapists and surviving twins themselves, all very scholarly with references etc. where appropriate. If you aren't exhausted already, maybe you would like to continue with this discussion in the light of this information?

By the way, I met a parent of a vanished twin and the uncle of one in the space of 40 mins only this morning in the TV studios. They are everywhere. 1 in 8 is just about right it seems. (Charles Boklage's paper about these statistics is in the book. That is his idea: blame him if you will. He is a geneticist in the US and highly respected.)

My, my. It is terribly obvious you haven't bothered to acquaint yourself with the gist of this forum. Do us all a favor and read, read, read.

In answer to one post: I edited and printed this book at my own expense because it was the best (but not the only) way to get this very helpful information into the public eye. I don't particularly care if they don't sell - I have plenty of money. I just want to be able to go on having conversations like this - and help wombtwin survivors to heal.

That explains everything. Thanks for your honesty. Now piss off.

Oh yes. Another thing: I have a website; people come to me and tell me their story. I don't go to them. I know nothing about them. They all tell me the same kind of thing, often using exactly the same words. Explain that if you will!

Althea

See my previous comment, and amplify it 1,000-fold.

M.

latent aaaack

15th February 2007, 10:40 AM

Sweet fanciful Moses! Please tell me you didn't write this book yourself!

"Yes, it is an anthology of papers by doctors, therapists and surviving twins themselves, all very scholarly with references etc. where appropriate."

Maybe it's just the dead evil twins inside us speaking, but she's asking for skeptical criticism not to be heckled and her posts not to be read.

To answer the OP, it had my attention until I got to the last paragraph about how 'it can be a great gift or a curse.' This kind of language seems to be over eagerly applied to a huge range of mental afflictions and to me reads like a cliche but I don't know if that's a calculated move to get it more attention. A lot skeptics I think would want to put the book down when it starts portraying the condition you describe as if it's an astrological sign. It's a bit like the fad about determining how birth order affects one's life and that's how it might be recieved by the public if it get's too much into vague speculation, like a self help book that doesn't really help. But I liked how the rest sounded. But if there's a chapter that dwells on the theory that a lot of us have dead twins amalgamated into us, that would make it the world's worst coffee table book.

baron

15th February 2007, 11:52 AM

Luke T.

15th February 2007, 12:30 PM

Just seen the OP on the UK ITV news. They reported the 1-in-8 statistic so I would be very surprised if there is insufficient evidence to back it up.

That doesn't mean there exists a correlation between that phenomenon and behavioural / emotional traits, however.

I am not familiar with UK ITV. What leads you to believe they wouldn't repeat a statistic without checking it out?

baron

15th February 2007, 12:59 PM

I am not familiar with UK ITV. What leads you to believe they wouldn't repeat a statistic without checking it out?

ITV is one of the original 3 British TV channels. I'm not saying their sources aren't flawed - I don't know - but it's not credible that they would state something as fact without good reason.

Madalch

15th February 2007, 01:05 PM

I just want to be able to go on having conversations like this - and help wombtwin survivors to heal.
But if it affects 12.5% of the population, and wasn't noticed until now, how much of a problem can it be? Obviously, these people are pretty much normal. Your book strikes me as the equivalent of trying to help those who were mentally scarred by their parents refusing to buy them a pony at the age of eight. Since it happens to so many of us, we just need to suck it up.

They all tell me the same kind of thing, often using exactly the same words.

Since they've all read your website, I'd be surprised if they didn't all say teh same things- the symptoms described on your website.

Luke T.

15th February 2007, 01:28 PM

ITV is one of the original 3 British TV channels. I'm not saying their sources aren't flawed - I don't know - but it's not credible that they would state something as fact without good reason.

I don't know about British TV news, but American news channels repeat things often without verifying them.

They have stories of psychics working on missing person cases and repeat the claims of the psychic that she has worked on 500 police cases, thereby lending creedence to the psychic because, hey, it was on the news so it must be true!

baron

15th February 2007, 01:37 PM

I don't know about British TV news, but American news channels repeat things often without verifying them.

So I believe. It doesn't happen here, by and large.

billydkid

15th February 2007, 01:58 PM

Hi Althea and welcome. The first thing that struck me as I read the part about vanishing twins was where you say: "I am a wombtwin survivor. I had a twin in the womb who died in the first few weeks of pregnancy. I have no proof: I just KNOW." It is tough to know what to say to that or how to respond. Maybe people can "just know" stuff like that, but I wouldn't bank the farm on it.

supercorgi

15th February 2007, 02:23 PM

supercorgi

15th February 2007, 02:25 PM

I just visited her personal website (http://www.altheahayton.com/index.html) and found this: (emphasis added)

I am a wombtwin survivor. I had a twin in the womb who died in the first few weeks of pregnancy. I have no proof: I just KNOW. I thought I was a rare and extraordinary person until I began to investigate the “vanishing twin” phenomenon. I now know that at least one in eight people are wombtwin survivors like me.
<snip>

I have no such proof in my case, but I soon realised that all my life I have wanted someone - anyone - to name what was wrong with me. In the end I worked it out for myself. Intuitively, it seems that I can remember being with my twin for the first twelve weeks or so of my life, and I somehow know that my twin was a brother and that he died suddenly. I have no idea how I can possibly have been aware of all this, but it seems to be true.

Based on comments from her website, I don't think she has anything other than anecdotal evidence of people with shared "what's wrong with me" feelings who have decided that they must have a missing "wombtwin".

CurtC

15th February 2007, 04:15 PM

all my life I have wanted someone - anyone - to name what was wrong with me.Critical Thinking Deficit Syndrome.

Not to be offensive, Althea, but the things you're claiming suffer from a noticeable lack of evidence, don't they? How would you convince another person that this happened to you, another person who isn't pre-disposed to accept what you're saying? Like a group of skeptics?

It would probably be a growth experience for you to try to convince us.

Flange Desire

15th February 2007, 08:50 PM

"You have all clarified this very clearly. "
Sweet fanciful Moses! Please tell me you didn't write this book yourself!
I hold you two both reponsible for the lack of productivity here at work today.
I laughed so hard I was in tears and my co-workers here thought I had gone hysterical due to deadlines and pressure and stuff.
Honestly, I have not laughed so hard since granny got her left tit caught in the mangle.

Flange Desire

15th February 2007, 09:05 PM

Althea: What is your opinion about FMS wrt vanishing twins?

JimTheBrit

15th February 2007, 09:18 PM

Just seen the OP on the UK ITV news. They reported the 1-in-8 statistic so I would be very surprised if there is insufficient evidence to back it up.

I dunno, they occasionally throw out a dodgy-sounding stat:

"1 in 12 children who makes contact with someone online will go on to meet them in person and there is a 50/50 chance that person will be a paedophile."
ITV news, 20Sep06

EDIT: I've just watched the report and the 1-in-8 statistic refers to a dead foetus being absorbed into the womb, not individuals having memories of unborn twins.

Flange Desire

15th February 2007, 09:33 PM

Still just love your thylacene avatar jim-lad.
What a jaw!
A bit like my jaw when I hear some of the woo claims.

Ducky

16th February 2007, 04:01 AM

Oh hey look. Someone with a sub-par written book and press release has posted and run, thus drumming up another google hit.

Ducky

16th February 2007, 04:06 AM

Phew!

I had no idea what an amazingly responsive group you are! Thanks so much for that feedback. I'll answer all the posts at once, if that is OK.

I did expect scepticism, because that is what I get, usually. I have spent so much time in the last 5 years with surviving twins- who of course are more grateful then they are sceptical - that I knew I had lost sight of what the rest of the world may think about this, so this forum seemed the ideal place to come. You have all clarified this very clearly. Thank you.

I have just got back from the TV studios in London, they are showing a film about multiple pregnancy (on ITV1 in the UK) tonight and they wanted me to speak on the news about the psychological effect of being a surviving twin.

So the idea is now out there.

So is the idea about numerology. Appeal to popularity isn't a valid logical premise.

It probably wasnt fair on you to throw a strange book that you have never seen at you and leave you to guess about it and then ask for a response (based on what would appear to be a VERY badly written press release!!)
However it was good to get the first reaction.

Some call that trolling.

Now here is more: Yes, it is an anthology of papers by doctors, therapists and surviving twins themselves, all very scholarly with references etc. where appropriate. If you aren't exhausted already, maybe you would like to continue with this discussion in the light of this information?

Citing sources is fine, but I see no establishment of premises argued upon in your writing. As others have pointed out, how did you provide evidence of womb memories?

By the way, I met a parent of a vanished twin and the uncle of one in the space of 40 mins only this morning in the TV studios. They are everywhere. 1 in 8 is just about right it seems. (Charles Boklage's paper about these statistics is in the book. That is his idea: blame him if you will. He is a geneticist in the US and highly respected.)

Yes well "it seems" is not a very defensible statistical set. What peer reviewed works support your theory?

In answer to one post: I edited and printed this book at my own expense because it was the best (but not the only) way to get this very helpful information into the public eye. I don't particularly care if they don't sell - I have plenty of money. I just want to be able to go on having conversations like this - and help wombtwin survivors to heal.

You have yet to establish wombtwin survivors are any more real than SRA survivors.

Oh yes. Another thing: I have a website; people come to me and tell me their story. I don't go to them. I know nothing about them. They all tell me the same kind of thing, often using exactly the same words. Explain that if you will!

Althea

Well, plagiarism and sock-puppetry come to mind. Do you know what a post-hoc fallacy is?

ponderingturtle

16th February 2007, 07:11 AM

Based on comments from her website, I don't think she has anything other than anecdotal evidence of people with shared "what's wrong with me" feelings who have decided that they must have a missing "wombtwin".

But how do they seperate the wombtwin survivors, from the ones with repressed child sex abuse, from the ones holding over problems from their past lives, from the ones with alien abduction issues?

MortFurd

16th February 2007, 08:51 AM

But how do they seperate the wombtwin survivors, from the ones with repressed child sex abuse, from the ones holding over problems from their past lives, from the ones with alien abduction issues?
... from the ones desparately seeking attention?

Althea hayton

19th February 2007, 03:17 AM

Pondering Turtle (great name!)

I have just got the digest, and so I can see where this has gone. I have learned three things about sceptics:

1. Everything stated in writing must be exact, precise, backed up with citations that are backed up by peer review papers published in professional journals, and these must refer to at least two double blind studies with equivalent results.

The practical outcome of this supposed "law" is

a. Dont ever write anything.
b. Alternatively spend several years working one's way by fair means or foul, towards gettings one's name as an assistant editor on a scientific paper for a well-known scientific journal along with several others who are similarly engaged. And be made to eat dirt by those who would seek to assert their higher authority and general brilliance over you while in fact you are the expert.

c. Take a good look and see if the emporer is clothed or not, in a spirit of curiosity and wonder and start to ask "what if?"

Because I did (c) and asked what if? and made an hypothesis ( ie. Let us suppose that surviving twins carry throughout their lives a vague but profound impression of their lost twin) I made a website and created a questionnaire to enable me to collect data on the subjective experience of surviving twins, those with available evidence of their twin and those with no evidence at all available.

Result: there is no appreciable difference between them in terms of how they feel about their lost twin.

I regularly get emails from people who say they have all their lives thought they had a twin "out there somewhere" and had never realised, until they saw my site, that this could be a real possibility.

I have enjoyed being here, this was always going to be a brief visit. I know only too well from past experience how sceptics love to demolish every new thought, even in embryo. I have, by simply ignoring the sceptics for four years, got things to the fetal stage. A bit more work and it may yet come to birth. The anthology of papers was just the beginning. You heard it first here!

Thanks to your responses, from which I have learned a great deal about what will presumably be "the opposition" when the rest of the media get hold of this and put me and my theory on the slab for detailed dissection, I will be ready. I now know my enemy and will be prepared. One thing I have learned from being here is that when I meet sceptics face to face in debate, they will be the ones on the defensive, afraid of being made a fool of or being wrong, but also they are being kind because they want to protect me from a similar fate. That will help a lot to keep in mind as I get pushed about in the mind games......

I know already how foolish it is to dare to dream about memories of the womb and all that mind-boggling stuff, but at least I am open-minded. 500 people have completed my questionnaire and I am formulating a therapy to help themand othes like them. They are all very happy that someone at last is listening to them. I am leaving the forum now, as I have a new anthology of true wombtwin survivor stories to edit, but in farewell I'll give you a true story. (BTW This is not about me, I am the survivor of an abortion that killed my twin.)

Jane lived happily in a loving family until she developed anorexia at about 16 years old. For 19 years she was offered therapy by a wide range of experts. She struggled to overcome this problem and almost managed it but every time it kept returning after a few months. The experts diagnosed child sexual abuse, emotional neglect, poor parenting, a personality disorder and the rest. She and her wonderful parents were put though hell. Then aged 34 she I said it looked like she probably was once a twin. She had never thought about it in her life. She checked it out with her mother who said she had bleeding at about 3 months and thought she had miscarried, but was amazed to find she was still pregnant. That is the classic "vanishing twin" scenario. The twins don't "vanish" of course, they die. The anorexia was simple survivor guilt. She had never told Jane about the lost twin. Within a few weeks of this discovery Jane was eating again and is now completely recovered. That was almost 3 years ago.

Thanks for everything.
Bye.

flim flam

19th February 2007, 03:31 AM

wow , now i see the light,
10 years of being a psych nurse, working with a lot of eating disorder patients and personality disorders, trying all those old fashioned non womb twin therapies when all this time i could have easily cured their suffering by making up some crapola about "womb twin survivor guilt". i feel like i've wasted so much time. glad she's invented a completely nonsensical disorder so she can rake in the cash with a new "therapy" . how long before oprah gets ahold of this doozy!

SezMe

19th February 2007, 03:35 AM

I know only too well from past experience how sceptics love to demolish every new thought, even in embryo.
Oh, frickin' boo hoo.

Buh, bye :w2:

SimonD

19th February 2007, 04:39 AM

I have not been on this site for long, but I see a pattern with people like Althea

First they come saying "I have this great idea...what do you think".
We tell them what we think and then they don't like what we say, they insult us!

I would have thought that if you where a person looking for answers to questions you would listen to what people with PHD's, real life experience, etc would have to say

I have yet to see anyone of these people come here and say "you know what - you are right, I'll have to rethink my ideas"

I hope that Althea never comes back. What a complete waste of time.

Cuddles

19th February 2007, 04:55 AM

So I believe. It doesn't happen here, by and large.

Well, that gave me a good laugh.

sophia8

19th February 2007, 05:51 AM

I have enjoyed being here, this was always going to be a brief visit. I know only too well from past experience how sceptics love to demolish every new thought, even in embryo. I have, by simply ignoring the sceptics for four years, got things to the fetal stage. A bit more work and it may yet come to birth.
Interesting use of words, especially from a claimed abortion survivor.
Thanks to your responses, from which I have learned a great deal about what will presumably be "the opposition" when the rest of the media get hold of this and put me and my theory on the slab for detailed dissection, I will be ready. I now know my enemy and will be prepared. One thing I have learned from being here is that when I meet sceptics face to face in debate, they will be the ones on the defensive, afraid of being made a fool of or being wrong, but also they are being kind because they want to protect me from a similar fate. That will help a lot to keep in mind as I get pushed about in the mind games......
In other words, thanks for the media training and the google hits. And would somebody who is really open-minded label anybody who questions her as "my enemy"?

I know already how foolish it is to dare to dream about memories of the womb and all that mind-boggling stuff, but at least I am open-minded. 500 people have completed my questionnaire and I am formulating a therapy to help themand othes like them. They are all very happy that someone at last is listening to them. I am leaving the forum now, as I have a new anthology of true wombtwin survivor stories to edit
And I have to find more forums to plug it all on.

chillzero

19th February 2007, 05:56 AM

c. Take a good look and see if the emporer is clothed or not, in a spirit of curiosity and wonder and start to ask "what if?"

Because I did (c) and asked what if? and made an hypothesis ( ie. Let us suppose that surviving twins carry throughout their lives a vague but profound impression of their lost twin) I made a website and created a questionnaire to enable me to collect data on the subjective experience of surviving twins, those with available evidence of their twin and those with no evidence at all available.

To use your analogy, what you did was more like "Is the emperor wearing new clothes? - I know, I'll start a website."

Then, instead of starting a website to investigate where the alleged cloth was made, who did the fittings, etc, you start a website to poll people on whether those alleged new clothes are blue, or red, too big or too small - without proving whether there are new clothes or not.

It's actually a great analogy - thinking of how people all oohed and aahed at the emperor, just to play along with everyone else and not upset a supposed authority figure. No-one (apart from little boy skeptic) thought to confirm if what they thought they saw was correct before joining in the general admiration of what they were told they should see.

Ripley Twenty-Nine

19th February 2007, 07:07 AM

I know already how foolish it is to dare to dream about memories of the womb and all that mind-boggling stuff, but at least I am open-minded. 500 people have completed my questionnaire and I am formulating a therapy to help themand othes like them. They are all very happy that someone at last is listening to them.
To ask questions, even seemingly crazy ones, is a very good thing. It helps us to advance our knowledge when we put these theories under proper scrutiny, and see if the evidence fits.

However, to pass your pet theory off as 'fact' without having more than anectotal evidence to back it up, just to deal with your own emotional issues and sell a few books in the process, is morally reprehensible.

Good luck with that.

Ladewig

19th February 2007, 07:39 AM

Everything stated in writing must be exact, precise, backed up with citations that are backed up by peer review papers published in professional journals, and these must refer to at least two double blind studies with equivalent results.

Here is why we asked for that stuff:

1) you said that you already had scholarly references and doctors' investigations. We just asked to see them.

2) it is possible that surviving twins suffer from emotional and mental illnesses at the exact same rate as non-surviving twins. Until you construct a proper scientific study to document a difference, there is really no need to develop a theory.

3) the claim that hundreds of people found your website and claimed to be surviving twins is not evidence that surviving twins suffer ill effects in greater numbers than the general population. Some people who suffer from moderate to severe mental illnesses make stuff up. They might see your website, want to have a explainable cause for their illness, and then claim to be a surviving twin. Again a proper study is required to determine if the group of surviving twins has more problems than the population.

4) your claim goes against over a hundred years of scientfic study and virtually all personal observations (i.e. people cannot remember what occurred in the womb). That alone does not make your theory wrong, but it does require that you present compelling evidence that people can remember experiences from the womb. Traditional science has been proved wrong before (e.g. continental drift), but compelling evidence was required.

5) it is possible that you have the wrong mechanism for your observed effects. Perhaps the mother of surviving twins is very aware of her loss and treats the surviving twin differently. Until you do a study to show that adopted surviving twins suffer from more ailments that adopted non-twins, this theory seems very much more likely than your theory of memories.

Luke T.

19th February 2007, 07:46 AM

I have learned three things about sceptics:

1. Everything stated in writing must be exact, precise, backed up with citations that are backed up by peer review papers published in professional journals, and these must refer to at least two double blind studies with equivalent results.

The practical outcome of this supposed "law" is

called science, and if you can't provide solid evidence to back up your claims, please

a. Dont ever write anything.

As for this:
Thanks to your responses, from which I have learned a great deal about what will presumably be "the opposition" when the rest of the media get hold of this and put me and my theory on the slab for detailed dissection, I will be ready. I now know my enemy and will be prepared. One thing I have learned from being here is that when I meet sceptics face to face in debate, they will be the ones on the defensive, afraid of being made a fool of or being wrong, but also they are being kind because they want to protect me from a similar fate. That will help a lot to keep in mind as I get pushed about in the mind games......

Yes. It's all a mind game, asking for evidence. You are so right. You should be able to say anything you like without having to back it up. That is a much better way of doing things.

It's a FACT that no one has ever successfully debunked The Blue Fairies On The Moon (http://www.skepticreport.com/lighterside/bluefairies.htm).

Critical thinking test. Prove that there are no blue fairies on the moon.

chillzero

19th February 2007, 08:13 AM

Just noticed something here:
(bolding mine)
Thanks to your responses, from which I have learned a great deal about what will presumably be "the opposition" when the rest of the media get hold of this and put me and my theory on the slab for detailed dissection, I will be ready. I now know my enemy and will be prepared. One thing I have learned from being here is that when I meet sceptics face to face in debate, they will be the ones on the defensive, afraid of being made a fool of or being wrong, but also they are being kind because they want to protect me from a similar fate. That will help a lot to keep in mind as I get pushed about in the mind games......

I know already how foolish it is to dare to dream about memories of the womb and all that mind-boggling stuff, but at least I am open-minded. 500 people have completed my questionnaire and I am formulating a therapy to help themand othes like them. They are all very happy that someone at last is listening to them. I am leaving the forum now, as I have a new anthology of true wombtwin survivor stories to edit, but in farewell I'll give you a true story. (BTW This is not about me, I am the survivor of an abortion that killed my twin.)

You shouldn't think of us as your enemy. You asked for feedback and received it.

In fact, you have been given great advice here - for free - on how best to go about presenting this kind of finding to the world.

There is nothing wrong with being open minded, but I have heard it said that you should be so open minded that your brain falls out. You can be open minded and sensible at theh same time - by which I mean not accepting new information on faith, but checking the validity.

I think you shouldn't just advertise and run, but even if you do post further I do not know if I will engage you. The last quoted sentence - the one in parentheses - says a lot more about your motivation and mindset than perhaps you realise. I hope that in time you can come to terms with learning something like that.

Luke T.

19th February 2007, 08:16 AM

Steven Howard

19th February 2007, 09:59 AM

Oh yes. Another thing: I have a website; people come to me and tell me their story. I don't go to them. I know nothing about them. They all tell me the same kind of thing, often using exactly the same words. Explain that if you will!

There are websites for people who believe that they're elves, or vampires, or that they're the reincarnation of a Japanese cartoon character. They all say the same kind of thing, often using exactly the same words. Explain that if you will.

Moochie

19th February 2007, 10:12 AM

The sad fact is, Althea, is that if you applied some critical thinking to your ideas, you would find it is bunk.

You are speaking as an authority on a subject you know nothing about. The idea of a 12 week fetus having awareness and memories which persist into adulthood is, quite simply, insane.

Yep, it's typical "new age" hogwash. The late Dr. Graham Farrant, who had been a respected psychiatrist, jumped the couch by becoming a believer in the deep woo-woo of "primal therapy" back in the 70s. But the good doctor didn't stop there. Wanting to outprimal Art Janov, with whom he had "studied," Farrant developed breathtakingly stupid ideas about "cellular consciousness and conception," which gained him the fan-base he so ardently sought.

http://www.primalspirit.com/larimore2_1.htm

To seek out people with emotional problems and to delude them further with this "lost twin" insanity is reprehensible and downright evil.

Shame on you.

Nothing shames these people.

M.

Flange Desire

19th February 2007, 06:17 PM

... afraid of being made a fool of or being wrong, but also they are being kind because they want to protect me from a similar fate. That will help a lot to keep in mind as I get pushed about in the mind games......

Althea: It is ok to be wrong, but it would be foolish to not learn from this.
You got the feedback you asked for, so don't cry about it now.

Will you answer any questions about 'memories from the womb' and FMS?
This is a key issue, but you have not addressed it in any of your postings.

(i mean to say - you purport to be a caring/sharing sort - so share with us and show us you really do care)

athon

20th February 2007, 12:58 AM

It's a shame that there are so many people like Althea out there. People who seriously see science as such a hard slog -- so hard, that they feel that it would only defeat them in the end, hence it's better if they just avoid it overall.

Yes, science is difficult. Researching your position is difficult and can actually demonstrate realities that just don't sit right with your sensitivities. It shows that we can be fooled by our senses and led on by our emotions. It feels cruel and is challenging enough that many people will feel they can't contribute because the rigour demanded will destroy the beliefs they have long held and considered to be undeniably true.

I for one am bloody glad science is a tough mistress, as I would never want to be fooled into flirting with delusions born of desire.

Athon

ponderingturtle

20th February 2007, 09:26 AM

Here is why we asked for that stuff:

1) you said that you already had scholarly references and doctors' investigations. We just asked to see them.

2) it is possible that surviving twins suffer from emotional and mental illnesses at the exact same rate as non-surviving twins. Until you construct a proper scientific study to document a difference, there is really no need to develop a theory.

3) the claim that hundreds of people found your website and claimed to be surviving twins is not evidence that surviving twins suffer ill effects in greater numbers than the general population. Some people who suffer from moderate to severe mental illnesses make stuff up. They might see your website, want to have a explainable cause for their illness, and then claim to be a surviving twin. Again a proper study is required to determine if the group of surviving twins has more problems than the population.

4) your claim goes against over a hundred years of scientfic study and virtually all personal observations (i.e. people cannot remember what occurred in the womb). That alone does not make your theory wrong, but it does require that you present compelling evidence that people can remember experiences from the womb. Traditional science has been proved wrong before (e.g. continental drift), but compelling evidence was required.

5) it is possible that you have the wrong mechanism for your observed effects. Perhaps the mother of surviving twins is very aware of her loss and treats the surviving twin differently. Until you do a study to show that adopted surviving twins suffer from more ailments that adopted non-twins, this theory seems very much more likely than your theory of memories.

Great post.

I would also add in, bringing in false memories to explain how people can really remember events that never happened.

Irony

20th February 2007, 09:38 AM

I know already how foolish it is to dare to dream about memories of the womb and all that mind-boggling stuff, but at least I am open-minded.

You'll probably never read this, but I'll respond anyway just in case.

The most important attribute of an open-minded person is that they are willing to admit that they may be wrong. By responding to the very specific reasons we have given for doubting your claims with nothing but personal attacks on us for daring to demand real evidence, you have demonstrated that you are in fact a very close-minded individual.

ponderingturtle

20th February 2007, 10:01 AM

Well this is addressed to me so I figure I should respond

Pondering Turtle (great name!)

I have just got the digest, and so I can see where this has gone. I have learned three things about sceptics:

1. Everything stated in writing must be exact, precise, backed up with citations that are backed up by peer review papers published in professional journals, and these must refer to at least two double blind studies with equivalent results.

The practical outcome of this supposed "law" is

a. Dont ever write anything.
b. Alternatively spend several years working one's way by fair means or foul, towards gettings one's name as an assistant editor on a scientific paper for a well-known scientific journal along with several others who are similarly engaged. And be made to eat dirt by those who would seek to assert their higher authority and general brilliance over you while in fact you are the expert.

c. Take a good look and see if the emporer is clothed or not, in a spirit of curiosity and wonder and start to ask "what if?"

This is because what science really is, is a torture testing of ideas. You test them and try your best to show that they are wrong, and when all that fails you accept them.

The problem with your claim is that it is very similar to many other claims, that it is mutually antagonistic to. These include repressed child sexual abuse, past life regression and alien abduction.

What is a way for an outsider to tell the difference between your model of personal trauma and theirs?

I regularly get emails from people who say they have all their lives thought they had a twin "out there somewhere" and had never realised, until they saw my site, that this could be a real possibility.

people dealing with the things I mentioned earlier can say the same thing

I know already how foolish it is to dare to dream about memories of the womb and all that mind-boggling stuff, but at least I am open-minded. 500 people have completed my questionnaire and I am formulating a therapy to help themand othes like them. They are all very happy that someone at last is listening to them. I am leaving the forum now, as I have a new anthology of true wombtwin survivor stories to edit, but in farewell I'll give you a true story. (BTW This is not about me, I am the survivor of an abortion that killed my twin.)

This can also be said of all the alien abduction people, the satanic ritual abuse people and the past lives people. What differentiates the your idea from them?

Ladewig

20th February 2007, 11:20 AM

Great post.

I would also add in, bringing in false memories to explain how people can really remember events that never happened.

Yes. The field of false memories is a fascinating topic that has only recently been well-documented.

MondoAtheist

20th February 2007, 11:27 AM

And how exactly do they do that?

What proof do you have that "wombtwin survivors" are any more prone to match this description than the general public would be?

Sorry, but the whole thing seems like a topic invented solely for the purpose of selling a book.

I was going to say the same thing, just probably with more grammatical errors. I'm pretty sure this whole thing can be ended right there, I mean I don't think we need any more after that. I'd have a hard time believing this even if the twins were conjoined at the head and they both lived many years then one died while the other survived.

This sounds like a lot like psychic powers. I think the only reason this might be a little more popular than children born stillborn or having their mother die at birth because twins is a sexy and mysterious topic.

MondoAtheist

20th February 2007, 11:50 AM

I have just got the digest, and so I can see where this has gone. I have learned three things about sceptics:

1. Everything stated in writing must be exact, precise, backed up with citations that are backed up by peer review papers published in professional journals, and these must refer to at least two double blind studies with equivalent results.

The practical outcome of this supposed "law" is

a. Dont ever write anything.
b. Alternatively spend several years working one's way by fair means or foul, towards gettings one's name as an assistant editor on a scientific paper for a well-known scientific journal along with several others who are similarly engaged. And be made to eat dirt by those who would seek to assert their higher authority and general brilliance over you while in fact you are the expert.

c. Take a good look and see if the emporer is clothed or not, in a spirit of curiosity and wonder and start to ask "what if?"

We're a lot like the Vogon's.

Vogons. They are one of the most unpleasant races in the galaxy. Not actually evil, but bad-tempered, bureaucratic, officious, and callous. They wouldn't even lift a finger to save their own grandmothers from the ravenous Bug-Blatter Beast of Traal without orders signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, lost, found again, queried, subjected to public inquiry, lost and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighter.