Excellent New Video of WTC 7

[Brainster]

Steve Spak, whose photo of some of the damage to WTC 7 attracted quite a bit of attention late last year, is back with a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHdt7wRQtaY) of what he saw. Some excellent closeups showing that the smoke is pouring out of the building, not wicking up the side from another building as often claimed by Deniers. Highly recommended!

ETA: I found this courtesy of JREFer Boloboffin over at DU (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=140884&mesg_id=140884).

[Mancman]

As I said in another thread, there is a large blue flame seen at around 3:30 into this video, which I'm sure is meaningful, but I'll let someone more qualified (ie. any of you) elborate on that.

[HyJinX]

Steve Spak, whose photo of some of the damage to WTC 7 attracted quite a bit of attention late last year, is back with a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHdt7wRQtaY) of what he saw. Some excellent closeups showing that the smoke is pouring out of the building, not wicking up the side from another building as often claimed by Deniers. Highly recommended!

Brilliant. Simply brilliant.

[T.A.M.]

Great video. How the truthers can argue the "small fires only, and little damage' is just beyond me...sad.

Great find Brainster.

TAM:)

[babazaroni]

Maybe Christopher7 will now believe there were fires visible on the west side of the building.

[JAStewart]

Great!

[NickUK]

Wow. This is unarguable now - those fires are huge. You can see ceilings collapsing, windows blowing out from the force of those fires.

Fantastic fine Brainster :)

[Miss Anthrope]

Thanks to Steve Spak, this was good video. Unfortunately the "truth" movement doesn't seem to be moved by evidence.

[T.A.M.]

Who needs evidence when you've got Keebler Elves, Star Wars Death Rays, Football field sized Bathtubs, ACE Baker.... I mean the list goes on.

If I were a paranoid delusional CTist I wouldn't need evidence either...lol

TAM

[WildCat]

As I said in another thread, there is a large blue flame seen at around 3:30 into this video, which I'm sure is meaningful, but I'll let someone more qualified (ie. any of you) elborate on that.
When I'm sweating copper pipes together the flame on my torch turns that exact color (it looks more green than blue on my monitor) right when the copper reaches the right temperature to melt the solder. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some copper in that area.

[pgwenthold]

Another great part about this video is that the next time Dylan Avery says "Make your own video" it can be pulled out.

That 4 and a half minutes is far more enlightening than any of what is in LC

[CurtC]

Unfortunately the "truth" movement doesn't seem to be moved by evidence.But... it's a video!!!! They don't have to read or anything!

Thanks to Mr. Spak for making it. The narration is a little repetitive, but it's good hard visual data.

[ref]

Excellent videos emerging, first from Pentagon and now WTC 7.

:bigclap

Let me guess what happens. CT's have shown us videos. We debunk them with other videos showing much more. Then they don't believe them. Then they whine and call us stupid and shills. Then they show us their old videos again.

[JamesB]

Oh it is obvious that the Jewish Illuminati CIA Keebler Elves just emplaced smoke machines there, on every floor...

Someone should post this on 911 blogger, remember they are seeking the truth!

[Pardalis]

AWE-SOME! :j1:

Damn that New York accent is music to my ears!

[Totovader]

When I'm sweating copper pipes together the flame on my torch turns that exact color (it looks more green than blue on my monitor) right when the copper reaches the right temperature to melt the solder. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some copper in that area.

Who's willing to bet they're going to quickly come up with an alternative theory? It's... thermuloxate or something...

Or maybe it's just "conclusive" proof of a death ray from outer space.

---

I agree, great find- but I'm pessimistic: conspiracists hold on to 7 as a smoking gun, and have almost completely abandoned any argument to 1 and 2, besides the crazy "no plane" people.

[GlennB]

Glory be. Thank you.

That should shut some stupid lying mouths.

[Alt+F4]

Damn that New York accent is music to my ears!

Welcome to my world! New Yorkers never think they have an accent until they hear their own voices. I thought I had very respectable English until I saw myself in a video, I'm this guy as a woman.

Anyway, he brings up a good point that the conspiracy liars like to ignore in regard to WTC 7. Even if there was water pressure I doubt the FDNY would have tried to put out the fires. There was no danger of loss of life and while the FDNY didn't yet know how many firefighters had already died that day, they did know the number was very, very high. Why risk more lives?

[boloboffin]

Glory be. Thank you.

That should shut some stupid lying mouths.

Unfortunately, I present a sampling of CT attempts to reframe this video:

It still is not plausible that fire and damage brought down WTC 7

Even if WTC 7 was, as the narrator says, "severely damaged" and "fully involved in fire," the way it collapsed could only have been caused by controlled demolition. Less than a second more than free fall, everything falling evenly at one time -- it doesn't happen by accident.

Bovine excrement! Mr. Spak's narrative seems to imply that the fires were spread thoughout most of the building, yet his own video only shows 2 floors that have cough 'large' cough fires, considering the size of the building that they are in being almost 50 floors tall, with several hundred square feet of area per floor.

The fires visible in the 20 or so windows (out of several hundred) are "raging" simply for the fact that a very abundant source of oxygen is available to them due to their proximity to the peripheral wall of the building.

What a Crock this video is

It keeps saying Building 7 was "fully involved."

Does this look "fully involved?"

(the pictures they always use)

...Name one. Fire in every part? Then why doesn't it show on the North, West, or East sides? Can you provide one exampleever of a fire that completely engulfed one side of a highrise building and one side only?

The tape is an embarrassment, demolishing Mr. Spak's
credibility and the credibility of anyone credulous enough
to lend credence to even one of his silly points.


Smoke is pouring out of one side... no! worse then pouring out... whatever the word is.. out the windows.. lots of them... close-ups.. and is not pouring out of the side facing the camera - at all. And that looks strange. I have no idea what to make of it.

I am also slightly suspicious of the "photo" in the middle of the video (you know where he keeps repeating "heavy damage") taken during a split second when the smoke cleared.

What is also strange is that after 5 years of controversy about WTC7 this video appears now.

What is the exact provenance of this video and why should I take it any more seriously then say a UFO video (some UFO videos are astonishing but are they real?)

At 1:40-1:46 I see squibs

All of a sudden, forceful jets of smoke.

Otherwise, lots of smoke, very little flame throughout.

Steve Spak should watch his own video...

It is strange that his narration is so out of sync with what his video shows ... A really large building with a few small fires.

His video is more evidence that fires did not cause the collapse.

WTC 7 went to rubble in 6.6 seconds (vs. 6 seconds free fall) as recorded by multiple mainstream TV networks. More than 5 years later the government has not told us why.

The evidence all points to controlled demolition.

The question is ... who planted the explosives?

Who falls for stuff like this?

I mean, really.

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g171/boloboffin2/911/stickdog.jpg

[ref]

Unfortunately, I present a sampling of CT attempts to reframe this video:

truth01:
The evidence all points to controlled demolition.


:what:

[ref]

Oh. We are doomed. 28th has debunked this video.

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4011

"HAHAHAHAHAHA... OMG.... HAHAHAHAHA - I LITERALLY CAN'T STOP LAUGHING! THANK YOU Steve PAK! That is one of the first laughs I have had since I started discussing 9/11 online!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I LOVE YOU STEVIE! You are my new favorite OCTer!

Also... I hate to break it to you JREFer clowns... but all that WHITE smoke pouring out is from therma/ite reactions burning... Notice around... 3:10 that the smoke RISING upward above the flames is dark gray to black. Now look at 0:05 & 1:50... at all that white smoke coming out... FROM THERMA/ITE REACTIONS!"

[Mancman]

Oh. We are doomed. 28th has debunked this video.

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=4011

"HAHAHAHAHAHA... OMG.... HAHAHAHAHA - I LITERALLY CAN'T STOP LAUGHING! THANK YOU Steve PAK! That is one of the first laughs I have had since I started discussing 9/11 online!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I LOVE YOU STEVIE! You are my new favorite OCTer!

Also... I hate to break it to you JREFer clowns... but all that WHITE smoke pouring out is from therma/ite reactions burning... Notice around... 3:10 that the smoke RISING upward above the flames is dark gray to black. Now look at 0:05 & 1:50... at all that white smoke coming out... FROM THERMA/ITE REACTIONS!"

An apt post from the 'CT arguements that go both ways' thread:
How about...

Black smoke = oxygen starved fire, supports CD
White smoke = thermite, supports CD
No smoke = small, localised fires, supports CD

Dave

[Spins]

An apt post from the 'CT arguements that go both ways' thread:Exactly, it doesn't matter what you show these loons it'll always get twisted into evidence for an inside job instead of against. Great video by the way, that fire is huge towards the end of the video! :eek:

[Miragememories]

Exactly, it doesn't matter what you show these loons it'll always get twisted into evidence for an inside job instead of against. Great video by the way, that fire is huge towards the end of the video! :eek:

Yeah awesome! Flames out of what..hmm..at least..omg..8 windows!

In a 47-storey building.

Yup that's huge alrighty.

MM

[kookbreaker]

Yeah awesome! Flames out of what..hmm..at least..omg..8 windows!

In a 47-storey building.

Yup that's huge alrighty.

MM

Wow. Way to ignore the smoke pouring out of the entire building in the rest of the video. Cognitive Dissonance is not pretty.

[Gravy]

Yeah awesome! Flames out of what..hmm..at least..omg..8 windows!
In a 47-storey building.
Yup that's huge alrighty.
MMYour ignorance is not evidence in support of your claims. This should set you straight about the fires in WTC 7. If you were there, I'd like to hear your rebuttal. Were you there, Miragememories?

Once the fires developed, according to witness accounts and photo evidence gathered in the NIST investigation, there were confirmed fires on at least 16 floors: 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 19, 21, 22, 29, and 30.

"The building was fully involved in fire." – Photographer Steve Spak See his dramatic video here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHdt7wRQtaY)

First responder accounts:

1. We walked over by number Seven World Trade Center as it was burning and saw this 40-plus story building with fire on nearly all floors. –FDNY Lieutenant Robert LaRocca
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110081.PDF


2. ...Just when you thought it was over, you're walking by this building and you're hearing this building creak and fully involved in flames. It's like, is it coming down next? Sure enough, about a half an hour later it came down. –FDNY Lieutenant James McGlynn
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110447.PDF


3. I walked out and I got to Vesey and West, where I reported to Frank [Cruthers]. He said, we’re moving the command post over this way, that building’s coming down. At this point, the fire was going virtually on every floor, heavy fire and smoke that really wasn’t bothering us when we were searching because it was being pushed southeast and we were a little bit west of that. I remember standing just where West and Vesey start to rise toward the entrance we were using in the World Financial Center. There were a couple of guys standing with me and a couple of guys right at the intersection, and we were trying to back them up – and here goes 7. It started to come down and now people were starting to run. –FDNY Deputy Chief Nick Visconti http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/visconti.html


4. All morning I was watching 7 World Trade burn, which we couldn't do anything about because it was so much chaos looking for missing members. –Firefighter Marcel Klaes http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110018.PDF


5. When the building came down it was completely involved in fire, all forty-seven stories. –FDNY Assistant Chief Harry Myers (Smith, Dennis, 2002. Report From Ground Zero: The Heroic Story of the Rescuers at the World Trade Center. New York: Penguin Putnam. p. 160)


6. The concern there again, it was later in the afternoon, 2, 2:30, like I said. The fear then was Seven. Seven was free burning. Search had been made of 7 already from what they said so they had us back up to that point where we were waiting for 7 to come down to operate from the north back down. –Captain Robert Sohmer http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110472.PDF


7. Then we had to move because the Duane Reade, they said, wasn't safe because building 7 was really roaring. –FDNY Chief Medical Officer Kerry Kelly. http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110207.PDF


8. At this point Seven World Trade was going heavy, and they weren't letting anybody get too close. Everybody was expecting that to come down. –Firefighter Vincent Massa
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110222.PDF


9. Chief Cruthers told me that they had formed another command post up on Chambers Street. At this point there were a couple of floors burning on Seven World Trade Center. Chief McNally wanted to try and put that fire out, and he was trying to coordinate with the command post up on Chambers Street. This is after searching for a while. He had me running back and forth trying to get companies to go into Seven World Trade Center. His radio didn't seem to be working right either because he had me relaying information back and forth and Chief Cruthers had me --

Q. So everything was face-to-face? Nothing was by radio?

A. Yeah, and it was really in disarray. It really was in complete disarray. We never really got an operation going at Seven World Trade Center. –FDNY Captain Michael Donovan http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110205.PDF


10. Building #7 was still actively burning and at that time we were advised by a NYFD Chief that building #7 was burning out of control and imminent collapse was probable. –PAPD P.O. Edward McQuade http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports02.pdf page 48.


11. At Vesey St. and West St., I could see that 7 WTC was ablaze and damaged, along with other buildings. –M. DeFilippis, PAPD P.O. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports03.pdf page 49


[Note: the fires in 7 were probably not mainly due to damage from the south tower, but from the north.]

12. So yeah then we just stayed on Vesey until building Seven came down. There was nothing we could do. The flames were coming out of every window of that building from the explosion of the south tower. So then building Seven came down. When that started coming down you heard that pancaking sound again everyone jumped up and starts.

Q: Why was building Seven on fire? Was that flaming debris from tower two, from tower two that fell onto that build-ing and lit it on fire?

A: Correct. Because it really got going, that building Seven, saw it late in the day and like the first Seven floors were on fire. It looked like heavy fire on seven floors. It was fully engulfed, that whole building. There were pieces of tower two [sic: he probably means tower one] in building Seven and the corners of the building missing and what-not. But just looking up at it from ground level however many stories -- it was 40 some odd -- you could see the flames going straight through from one side of the building to the other, that’s an entire block. –Firefighter Tiernach Cassidy
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110413.PDF


13. "We were down about a block from the base of the World Trade Center towers about an hour ago. And there was a great deal of concern at that time, the firemen said building number 7 was going to collapse, building number five was in danger of collapsing. And there's so little they can do to try to fight the fires in these buildings, because the fires are so massive. And so much of the buildings continues to fall into the street. When you're down there, Dan, you hear smaller secondary explosions going off every 15 or 20 minutes, and so it's an extremely dangerous place to be."
–CBS-TV News Reporter Vince DeMentri http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.secondary.explosions.wmv


14. Well, they said that's (7) fully involved at this time. This was a fully involved building. I said, all right, they're not coming for us for a while. Now you're trapped in this rubble, and you're trying to get a grasp of an idea of what's going on there. I heard on the handy talky that we are now fighting a 40-story building fully involved.

Now you're trapped in the rubble and the guys who are there are fighting the worst high-rise fire in the history of New York or history of the world, probably, I don't know, 40, story building fully involved, I guess that was probably the worst.

I was, needless to say, scared to death that something else was going to fall on us, that this building was going to come down and we were all going to die, after surviving the worst of it. [Note: I deleted the link this account, and searching the net for the text doesn’t turn up anything. This sounds like an account from north tower stairwell B survivor. Anyone who knows for sure, let me know.]


15. And 7 World Trade was burning up at the time. We could see it. ... the fire at 7 World Trade was working its way from the front of the building northbound to the back of the building. There was no way there could be water put on it, because there was no water in the area. –Firefighter Eugene Kelty Jr.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110261.PDF


16. The time was approximately 11a.m. Both of the WTC towers were collapsed and the streets were covered with debris. Building #7 was still standing but burning. ...We spoke to with a FDNY Chief who has his men holed up in the US Post Office building. He informed us that the fires in building 7 were uncontrollable and that its collapse was imminent. There were no fires inside the loading dock (of 7) at this time but we could hear explosions deep inside. –PAPD P.O. William Connors http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports04.pdf page 69


17. "There's number Seven World Trade. That's the OEM bunker." We had a snicker about that. We looked over, and it's engulfed in flames and starting to collapse.

We're kind of caught in traffic and people and things, and everything's going on. We hear over the fire portable, "Everybody evacuate the site. It's going to collapse." Mark Steffens starts yelling, "Get out of here! Get out of here! Get out of here! We've got to go! We've got to go! It's going to collapse." I turned around, and I piped up real loud and said, "Stay in the frigging car. Roll the windows up. It's pancake collapsing. We'll be fine. The debris will quit and the cloud will come through. Just stay in the car." We pulled the car over, turned around and just watched it pancake. We had a dust cloud but nothing like it was before. –Paramedic Louis Cook http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110103.PDF


(Building 7 fire makes rescuer of NT stairwell victim’s route impassable, just before collapse):

I remember it was bad and I'm going to get to a point where we came back that way on the way up. We couldn't even go that way, that's how bad the fire was, but by the time I was coming back it was rolling, more than a couple of floors, just fully involved, rolling.
...So now it's us 4 and we are walking towards it and I remember it would have at one point been an easier path to go towards our right, but being building 7 -- that must have been building 7 I'm guessing with that fire, we decided to stay away from that because things were just crackling, falling and whatnot. So as I’m going back, that fire that was on my right is now on my left. I’m backtracking and that fire is really going and on the hike towards there, we put down our masks, which at this point started to realize maybe it would have been good thing if we had this mask on the way back, but then again between the fire and about halfway when I was on the way back, I got a radio call from the guys that we left and it was Johnny Colon the chauffeur of 43, who was effecting a different rescue. He was carrying somebody out.

He had called me and said “Hey Jerry don’t try and get back out the way you went in which was big heads up move because he said that building was rolling on top of the building that we were passing. That building was on fire and likely to collapse more too.

Between Picciotto asking me are you sure we can get out this way because it really didn’t look good with that fire and my guy telling me that you better not because of the area we crawled in was unattainable now too. ...we started going back the other way

Q: Would that be towards West Street?

A: That would have been back towards what I know is the Winter Garden....[west] –Firefighter Gerard Suden http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110022.PDF


18. I remember Chief Hayden saying to me, "We have a six-story building over there, a seven-story building, fully involved." At that time he said, "7 has got fire on several floors." He said, "We've got a ten-story over there, another ten-story over there, a six-story over there, a 13-story over there." He just looked at me and said, "**** 'em all. Let 'em burn." He said, "Just tell the guys to keep looking for guys. Just keep looking for the brothers. We've got people trapped. We've got to get them out." –Lieutenant William Ryan http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110117.PDF


19. I walked around the building to get back to the command post and that's when they were waiting for 7 World Trade Center to come down. ...They had three floors of fire on three separate floors, probably 10, 11 and 15 it looked like, just burning merrily. It was pretty amazing, you know, it's the afternoon in lower Manhattan, a major high-rise is burning, and they said 'we know.' –FDNY Chief Thomas McCarthy
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110055.PDF


20. We were champing at the bit," says WCBS-TV reporter Vince DeMentri of his decision to sneak behind police barricades and report from 7 World Trade Center a half-hour before it collapsed. "I knew the story was in there." But after he and his cameraman slipped past officers, they lost all sense of direction. "From outside this zone, you could figure out where everything was," he says. "But inside, it was all destruction and blown-out buildings, and we had no clue. I walked into one building, but I had no idea where I was. The windows were all blown out. Computers, desks, furniture, and people's possessions were strewn all over." He found a picture of a little girl lying in the rubble. Then he realized that No. 7, aflame, was about fifteen to twenty feet ahead of him. "I looked up Barclay Street," he says. "There was nobody out. No bodies, no injured. Nobody. There were mounds of burning debris. It was like opening a broiler." http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sept11/features/5183/index.html


21. They are worried that number 7 is burning and they are talking about not ceasing operations. –Deputy Commissioner Frank Gribbon http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110167.PDF


22. There were hundreds of firefighters waiting to -- they were waiting for 7 World Trade Center to come down as it was on fire. It was too dangerous to go in and fight the fire. –Assistant Commissioner James Drury http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110098.PDF


23. We assisted some FDNY personnel who were beginning to attempt to fight the fire at 7 WTC. We assisted in dragging hose they needed to bring water into the building. –Kenneth Kohlmann PAPD P.O. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports04.pdf page 26


24. My first thoughts when I came down a little further into the site, south of Chambers Street, was, "Where am I?" I didn't recognize it. Obviously, the towers were gone. The only thing that remained standing was a section of the Vista Hotel. Building 7 was on fire. That was ready to come down. –Charlie Vitchers, Ground Zero Superintendent http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/profiles/profiles_vitchers_t.html


25. The whole south side of Seven World Trade had been hit by the collapse of the second Tower, and there was fire on every floor." – Fire Captain Brenda Berkman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 213)


26. At that point, Seven World Trade had 12 stories of fire in it. They were afraid it was going to collapse on us, so they pulled everybody out. We couldn't do anything. – Firefighter Maureen McArdle-Schulman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 17)

[kookbreaker]

What's worse is that you can hear the windows breaking from the heat in the video. Then the Ctards try and tell us there isn't enough fire for their needs? Yea gods what desperation!

[Mancman]

What's worse is that you can hear the windows breaking from the heat in the video. Then the Ctards try and tell us there isn't enough fire for their needs? Yea gods what desperation!

You can see one break at 00:37, and the fire is only visible the floor below at that location. Must have been considerably internal fires, or one hell of an updraft.

[LashL]

Excellent. I'm glad that Steve Spak has released this video, and thank you for posting the link, Brainster.

I agree with what CurtC wrote above about the narrative being a bit repetitive - but that delightful NY accent makes up for it - and the video is terrific hard data.

[Miragememories]

Your ignorance is not evidence in support of your claims. This should set you straight about the fires in WTC 7. If you were there, I'd like to hear your rebuttal. Were you there, Miragememories?

Once the fires developed, according to witness accounts and photo evidence gathered in the NIST investigation, there were confirmed fires on at least 16 floors: 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 19, 21, 22, 29, and 30.

"The building was fully involved in fire." – Photographer Steve Spak See his dramatic video here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHdt7wRQtaY)

First responder accounts:

1. We walked over by number Seven World Trade Center as it was burning and saw this 40-plus story building with fire on nearly all floors. –FDNY Lieutenant Robert LaRocca
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110081.PDF


2. ...Just when you thought it was over, you're walking by this building and you're hearing this building creak and fully involved in flames. It's like, is it coming down next? Sure enough, about a half an hour later it came down. –FDNY Lieutenant James McGlynn
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110447.PDF


3. I walked out and I got to Vesey and West, where I reported to Frank [Cruthers]. He said, we’re moving the command post over this way, that building’s coming down. At this point, the fire was going virtually on every floor, heavy fire and smoke that really wasn’t bothering us when we were searching because it was being pushed southeast and we were a little bit west of that. I remember standing just where West and Vesey start to rise toward the entrance we were using in the World Financial Center. There were a couple of guys standing with me and a couple of guys right at the intersection, and we were trying to back them up – and here goes 7. It started to come down and now people were starting to run. –FDNY Deputy Chief Nick Visconti http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/visconti.html


4. All morning I was watching 7 World Trade burn, which we couldn't do anything about because it was so much chaos looking for missing members. –Firefighter Marcel Klaes http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110018.PDF


5. When the building came down it was completely involved in fire, all forty-seven stories. –FDNY Assistant Chief Harry Myers (Smith, Dennis, 2002. Report From Ground Zero: The Heroic Story of the Rescuers at the World Trade Center. New York: Penguin Putnam. p. 160)


6. The concern there again, it was later in the afternoon, 2, 2:30, like I said. The fear then was Seven. Seven was free burning. Search had been made of 7 already from what they said so they had us back up to that point where we were waiting for 7 to come down to operate from the north back down. –Captain Robert Sohmer http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110472.PDF


7. Then we had to move because the Duane Reade, they said, wasn't safe because building 7 was really roaring. –FDNY Chief Medical Officer Kerry Kelly. http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110207.PDF


8. At this point Seven World Trade was going heavy, and they weren't letting anybody get too close. Everybody was expecting that to come down. –Firefighter Vincent Massa
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110222.PDF


9. Chief Cruthers told me that they had formed another command post up on Chambers Street. At this point there were a couple of floors burning on Seven World Trade Center. Chief McNally wanted to try and put that fire out, and he was trying to coordinate with the command post up on Chambers Street. This is after searching for a while. He had me running back and forth trying to get companies to go into Seven World Trade Center. His radio didn't seem to be working right either because he had me relaying information back and forth and Chief Cruthers had me --

Q. So everything was face-to-face? Nothing was by radio?

A. Yeah, and it was really in disarray. It really was in complete disarray. We never really got an operation going at Seven World Trade Center. –FDNY Captain Michael Donovan http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110205.PDF


10. Building #7 was still actively burning and at that time we were advised by a NYFD Chief that building #7 was burning out of control and imminent collapse was probable. –PAPD P.O. Edward McQuade http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports02.pdf page 48.


11. At Vesey St. and West St., I could see that 7 WTC was ablaze and damaged, along with other buildings. –M. DeFilippis, PAPD P.O. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports03.pdf page 49


[Note: the fires in 7 were probably not mainly due to damage from the south tower, but from the north.]

12. So yeah then we just stayed on Vesey until building Seven came down. There was nothing we could do. The flames were coming out of every window of that building from the explosion of the south tower. So then building Seven came down. When that started coming down you heard that pancaking sound again everyone jumped up and starts.

Q: Why was building Seven on fire? Was that flaming debris from tower two, from tower two that fell onto that build-ing and lit it on fire?

A: Correct. Because it really got going, that building Seven, saw it late in the day and like the first Seven floors were on fire. It looked like heavy fire on seven floors. It was fully engulfed, that whole building. There were pieces of tower two [sic: he probably means tower one] in building Seven and the corners of the building missing and what-not. But just looking up at it from ground level however many stories -- it was 40 some odd -- you could see the flames going straight through from one side of the building to the other, that’s an entire block. –Firefighter Tiernach Cassidy
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110413.PDF


13. "We were down about a block from the base of the World Trade Center towers about an hour ago. And there was a great deal of concern at that time, the firemen said building number 7 was going to collapse, building number five was in danger of collapsing. And there's so little they can do to try to fight the fires in these buildings, because the fires are so massive. And so much of the buildings continues to fall into the street. When you're down there, Dan, you hear smaller secondary explosions going off every 15 or 20 minutes, and so it's an extremely dangerous place to be."
–CBS-TV News Reporter Vince DeMentri http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.secondary.explosions.wmv


14. Well, they said that's (7) fully involved at this time. This was a fully involved building. I said, all right, they're not coming for us for a while. Now you're trapped in this rubble, and you're trying to get a grasp of an idea of what's going on there. I heard on the handy talky that we are now fighting a 40-story building fully involved.

Now you're trapped in the rubble and the guys who are there are fighting the worst high-rise fire in the history of New York or history of the world, probably, I don't know, 40, story building fully involved, I guess that was probably the worst.

I was, needless to say, scared to death that something else was going to fall on us, that this building was going to come down and we were all going to die, after surviving the worst of it. [Note: I deleted the link this account, and searching the net for the text doesn’t turn up anything. This sounds like an account from north tower stairwell B survivor. Anyone who knows for sure, let me know.]


15. And 7 World Trade was burning up at the time. We could see it. ... the fire at 7 World Trade was working its way from the front of the building northbound to the back of the building. There was no way there could be water put on it, because there was no water in the area. –Firefighter Eugene Kelty Jr.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110261.PDF


16. The time was approximately 11a.m. Both of the WTC towers were collapsed and the streets were covered with debris. Building #7 was still standing but burning. ...We spoke to with a FDNY Chief who has his men holed up in the US Post Office building. He informed us that the fires in building 7 were uncontrollable and that its collapse was imminent. There were no fires inside the loading dock (of 7) at this time but we could hear explosions deep inside. –PAPD P.O. William Connors http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports04.pdf page 69


17. "There's number Seven World Trade. That's the OEM bunker." We had a snicker about that. We looked over, and it's engulfed in flames and starting to collapse.

We're kind of caught in traffic and people and things, and everything's going on. We hear over the fire portable, "Everybody evacuate the site. It's going to collapse." Mark Steffens starts yelling, "Get out of here! Get out of here! Get out of here! We've got to go! We've got to go! It's going to collapse." I turned around, and I piped up real loud and said, "Stay in the frigging car. Roll the windows up. It's pancake collapsing. We'll be fine. The debris will quit and the cloud will come through. Just stay in the car." We pulled the car over, turned around and just watched it pancake. We had a dust cloud but nothing like it was before. –Paramedic Louis Cook http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110103.PDF


(Building 7 fire makes rescuer of NT stairwell victim’s route impassable, just before collapse):

I remember it was bad and I'm going to get to a point where we came back that way on the way up. We couldn't even go that way, that's how bad the fire was, but by the time I was coming back it was rolling, more than a couple of floors, just fully involved, rolling.
...So now it's us 4 and we are walking towards it and I remember it would have at one point been an easier path to go towards our right, but being building 7 -- that must have been building 7 I'm guessing with that fire, we decided to stay away from that because things were just crackling, falling and whatnot. So as I’m going back, that fire that was on my right is now on my left. I’m backtracking and that fire is really going and on the hike towards there, we put down our masks, which at this point started to realize maybe it would have been good thing if we had this mask on the way back, but then again between the fire and about halfway when I was on the way back, I got a radio call from the guys that we left and it was Johnny Colon the chauffeur of 43, who was effecting a different rescue. He was carrying somebody out.

He had called me and said “Hey Jerry don’t try and get back out the way you went in which was big heads up move because he said that building was rolling on top of the building that we were passing. That building was on fire and likely to collapse more too.

Between Picciotto asking me are you sure we can get out this way because it really didn’t look good with that fire and my guy telling me that you better not because of the area we crawled in was unattainable now too. ...we started going back the other way

Q: Would that be towards West Street?

A: That would have been back towards what I know is the Winter Garden....[west] –Firefighter Gerard Suden http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110022.PDF


18. I remember Chief Hayden saying to me, "We have a six-story building over there, a seven-story building, fully involved." At that time he said, "7 has got fire on several floors." He said, "We've got a ten-story over there, another ten-story over there, a six-story over there, a 13-story over there." He just looked at me and said, "**** 'em all. Let 'em burn." He said, "Just tell the guys to keep looking for guys. Just keep looking for the brothers. We've got people trapped. We've got to get them out." –Lieutenant William Ryan http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110117.PDF


19. I walked around the building to get back to the command post and that's when they were waiting for 7 World Trade Center to come down. ...They had three floors of fire on three separate floors, probably 10, 11 and 15 it looked like, just burning merrily. It was pretty amazing, you know, it's the afternoon in lower Manhattan, a major high-rise is burning, and they said 'we know.' –FDNY Chief Thomas McCarthy
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110055.PDF


20. We were champing at the bit," says WCBS-TV reporter Vince DeMentri of his decision to sneak behind police barricades and report from 7 World Trade Center a half-hour before it collapsed. "I knew the story was in there." But after he and his cameraman slipped past officers, they lost all sense of direction. "From outside this zone, you could figure out where everything was," he says. "But inside, it was all destruction and blown-out buildings, and we had no clue. I walked into one building, but I had no idea where I was. The windows were all blown out. Computers, desks, furniture, and people's possessions were strewn all over." He found a picture of a little girl lying in the rubble. Then he realized that No. 7, aflame, was about fifteen to twenty feet ahead of him. "I looked up Barclay Street," he says. "There was nobody out. No bodies, no injured. Nobody. There were mounds of burning debris. It was like opening a broiler." http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sept11/features/5183/index.html


21. They are worried that number 7 is burning and they are talking about not ceasing operations. –Deputy Commissioner Frank Gribbon http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110167.PDF


22. There were hundreds of firefighters waiting to -- they were waiting for 7 World Trade Center to come down as it was on fire. It was too dangerous to go in and fight the fire. –Assistant Commissioner James Drury http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110098.PDF


23. We assisted some FDNY personnel who were beginning to attempt to fight the fire at 7 WTC. We assisted in dragging hose they needed to bring water into the building. –Kenneth Kohlmann PAPD P.O. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports04.pdf page 26


24. My first thoughts when I came down a little further into the site, south of Chambers Street, was, "Where am I?" I didn't recognize it. Obviously, the towers were gone. The only thing that remained standing was a section of the Vista Hotel. Building 7 was on fire. That was ready to come down. –Charlie Vitchers, Ground Zero Superintendent http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/profiles/profiles_vitchers_t.html


25. The whole south side of Seven World Trade had been hit by the collapse of the second Tower, and there was fire on every floor." – Fire Captain Brenda Berkman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 213)


26. At that point, Seven World Trade had 12 stories of fire in it. They were afraid it was going to collapse on us, so they pulled everybody out. We couldn't do anything. – Firefighter Maureen McArdle-Schulman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 17)

Ahh Mark Roberts (Gravy) flogging his cut & paste list of quotes, fron non-experts; firefighters who never claimed anywhere that WTC7 would have a rapid, symmetrical, TOTAL collapse.

Firefighters who until that day had zero experience with a collapse of that nature, yet, supposedly they knew well in advance exactly what was going to occur.

MM

[pgwenthold]

Ahh Mark Roberts (Gravy) flogging his cut & paste list of quotes, fron non-experts; firefighters who never claimed anywhere that WTC7 would have a rapid, symmetrical, TOTAL collapse.



That's because that isn't what he was responding to. Your claim was

Yeah awesome! Flames out of what..hmm..at least..omg..8 windows!
In a 47-storey building.
Yup that's huge alrighty

These quotes attest to the size of the fire, which, as they indicate, was far more than just 8 windows.

But your dodge is noted.

[Dave Rogers]

Ahh Mark Roberts (Gravy) flogging his cut & paste list of quotes, fron non-experts; firefighters who never claimed anywhere that WTC7 would have a rapid, symmetrical, TOTAL collapse.

Firefighters who until that day had zero experience with a collapse of that nature, yet, supposedly they knew well in advance exactly what was going to occur.

MM

You seem to be a little confused. If they never claimed anywhere that WTC7 would have a rapid, symmetrical, total collapse, why do you suppose they knew well in advance exactly what was going to occur?

Dave

[Horatius]

What's worse is that you can hear the windows breaking from the heat in the video. Then the Ctards try and tell us there isn't enough fire for their needs? Yea gods what desperation!

You can see one break at 00:37, and the fire is only visible the floor below at that location. Must have been considerably internal fires, or one hell of an updraft.

And not only that, but in the brief shot of the fire in "only eight windows", you can see the fire spreading.

CTists: "Fire spreads? Why didn't anyone tell us this?!?!?"

[Horatius]

You seem to be a little confused. If they never claimed anywhere that WTC7 would have a rapid, symmetrical, total collapse, why do you suppose they knew well in advance exactly what was going to occur?

Dave

Not to mention, not knowing the exact details of how the collapse will occur =/= not knowing the collapse will occur.

They knew it was going to come down. No one bothered to predict exactly how it would happen, as any such collapse would be a disaster. So they just got the hell out of the way and waited to see what would happen.

[babazaroni]

Ahh Mark Roberts (Gravy) flogging his cut Firefighters who until that day had zero experience with a collapse of that nature, yet, supposedly they knew well in advance exactly what was going to occur.
MM

How much experience do you need to know that when a building bulges, has visual damage, makes loud noises from internal failures, and is on fire, that there is a good chance it will collapse?

[twinstead]

How much experience do you need to know that when a building bulges, has visual damage, makes loud noises from internal failures, and is on fire, that there is a good chance it will collapse?

From what I can tell, even if they didn't know it was going to collapse they all knew something bad was going to happen. I would think firefighters would know that buildings that do stuff like they observed are going to do bad things very soon...

[Free Thinkr]

How much experience do you need to know that when a building bulges, has visual damage, makes loud noises from internal failures, and is on fire, that there is a good chance it will collapse?
Well, according to conspiracy theorists, the fire is irrelevant, because as they know, steel is completely unaffected by fire up until its melting point.

[Gravy]

Ahh Mark Roberts (Gravy) flogging his cut & paste list of quotes, fron non-expertsYes, your arguments are much more sensible when colored red.

Non-experts?

Name a fire department in the world that has more expertise, and better training, in the assessment and fighting of high-rise fires.

The FDNY believed the building was in danger of imminent collapse, the structural engineers believed the building was in danger of imminent collapse, and the explosive demolitions experts who were on the scene believed the building was in danger of imminent collapse.

But Miragememories, who can't get anything right, knows better.

Astonishing.

'zat you, pdoherty?

[negativ]

Is this video available anywhere apart from youtube? My handler blocks access to youtube, at least at my current clearance level.

[Beerina]

Ahh Mark Roberts (Gravy) flogging his cut & paste list of quotes, fron non-experts; firefighters who never claimed anywhere that WTC7 would have a rapid, symmetrical, TOTAL collapse.

Firefighters who until that day had zero experience with a collapse of that nature, yet, supposedly they knew well in advance exactly what was going to occur.

MM

The issue in question is whether there was enough ongoing damage (fire, collapsed floors, supports, etc.) that the build could have collapsed on its own.

This set of quotes addresses that. Please do not move the goalposts (http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/Moving_the_Goalposts).

[Gravy]

Is this video available anywhere apart from youtube? My handler blocks access to youtube, at least at my current clearance level.Not that I know. Spak's website links to youtube.

[njslim]

You seem to be a little confused. If they never claimed anywhere that WTC7 would have a rapid, symmetrical, total collapse, why do you suppose they knew well in advance exactly what was going to occur?

Dave


And you are an expert in fire fighting and structural collapse? ALL firefighters
are trained from day 1 to evaluate a buildings intergrity and to know when it
is unsafe and to get out. This goes double for chief officers - I attended a
seminar 6 months after 9/11 in which the operational commanders that day
explained what they did. WTC 7 was hit by a debris storm from North Tower
(WTC 1) which caused significant structural damage to the building or did
you miss that? There was no water because the mains were cut by the
collapse of the towers. Firemen (Capt Chris Boyle- look up his account
here or at FIREHOUSE.COM - 9/11 archives) looking at building right after
debris impact stated that building "didn't look right" - by early afternoon
word came to abandon WTC 7 as was unsafe. At 2pm observers could see building was bulging and set up surveyors transit to monitor. At 3pm the
chiefs ordered everyone to stay clear of WTC 7 as collapse was probable.
From my firehouse in NJ heard order going out over the radios to stay clear.
I don't know what your problem is - this has been discussed numerous
times, but apparently you are too stupid to understand.

[hellaeon]

ahhhh another day, another crazy bunch of posts at LCF.
Some of the guys seem to almost make the long jump of logic but often just cant make the sand.