Is the Qu'ran from the true God?

[PeaceCrusader]

My Dear Fellowmen,

All Muslims are expected to believe the main doctrines of Islam consisting of five articles of faith. These are:

God. His name is Allah and is the supreme being of all. He is uncreated, without beginning or end. He created all.
Angels. Every person has two angels; one records his good deeds, and the other, his bad deeds. Jibreel (Gabriel) is the angel who brought the revelation of the Qu’ran to Muhammad.
Scripture. The four inspired books in Islam are the Taurat (Torah or the first five books of Moses), the Zaboor (Psalms of David), the Injeel (gospel message of Jesus Christ in the New Testament), and the Qu’ran. The Qu’ran supersedes the other books since it is the last and final revelation of Allah.
Prophets. Among the numerous prophets or messengers of Allah, the six greatest are Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad.
Last Days. All people will be resurrected on the last day to be judged. Muslims will go to the Garden of Paradise, the Islamic heaven, and the rest will be tormented in hell. The Islamic heaven is a place of entertainment where men and their wives will be reclining in raised couches and shall have whatever they desire. Is there anything in these doctrines not correct or not clear? If so, please point it out and explain.

Did the Lord God talk to His prophets?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible created Adam, and out of Adam’s rib, Eve. When they sinned by disobeying God, God drove them out from the garden of Eden. God talked to Adam. If Adam is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible told Noah to build an ark for He would destroy all flesh because of man’s wickedness. In Genesis 6:18 (KJV), God said, “But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons’ wives with thee.” God spared these eight persons and the living things in the ark when God flooded the earth. God talked to Noah. If Noah is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible made a covenant with Abram (later called Abraham): “Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates” (Genesis 15:18, KJV). Notice that God said, “Unto thy seed.” Singular. Only one. Abraham had two children: Ishmael, the descendants of whom are Muhammad and the Arabs and the Muslims; and Isaac, the descendants of whom are the Jews and Jesus. Who is this seed that God was referring to? God talked to Abraham. If Abraham is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible made Moses to lead in the liberation of the Israelites from about 400 years of bondage in Egypt. God talked to Moses. If Moses is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible said, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” during Jesus’ baptism (Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:21) and in the transfiguration, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him” (Matthew 17:5, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35). God said of this prophet Jesus, “hear ye him.” If Jesus is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why He is so?

The Holy Bible does not mention the name Muhammad. He is supposedly the last and final prophet although God did not talk to him. The Qu’ran was revealed to him by the angel Jibreel (Gabriel). Why is it that it is not God who directly reveal the Qu’ran to him? If Muhammad is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

Is Allah of the Qu’ran and the Lord God of the Holy Bible one and the same?

The peace of the true God reign in our hearts now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
Motto: pro aris et focis
http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/ (http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/)
“The Internet is mightier than the sword.”

[wahrheit]

Huh?

[strathmeyer]

Is Allah of the Qu’ran and the Lord God of the Holy Bible one and the same?

How could they be the same? They weren't created by the same people. They don't even have the same name. Heck, there's a hundred different Jesuses.

What would make Allah or Jesus truer than the other gods? How do we measure a god's trueness? I hope it's not by how true the god's make believers are!

[Darat]

I don't recognise the five pillars of faith for Muslims in the OP, I always thought they were

1) There is one God called Allah and Muhammad is his prophet
2) Daily Prayer
3) Charity
4) Fasting
5) Pilgrimage

[Bikewer]

Why would anyone presume that what God whispered into Mohammed's ear is any more relevant than what Moroni whispered into Smith's ear?

Or L-Ron's, for that matter.

[clarsct]

I am guessing, cold reading, if you will, that this person has seen us pick apart the Bible and is challenging us to do the same with the Quran/Koran.


Of course, as this person has not made themselves clear, I could be wrong.

[wahrheit]

From PeaceCrusader's RECENT PROPHECIES OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/prophecyidx.htm): The source of the following prophecies is a spirit, a holy spirit, and if you will believe it, THE Holy Spirit Himself. I, together with several others, have been fortunate and privileged to communicate with Him and record on audio tape such communications.
Could I have a copy of such a tape, or could you upload a mp3 file?

[Björn Toulouse]

All people will be resurrected on the last day to be judged. Muslims will go to the Garden of Paradise, the Islamic heaven, and the rest will be tormented in hell.





So many gods, so many rules. Two brothers in Atlanta got sentenced to 10 years in prison last week for torturing a puppy in a microwave oven.

Yes, indeed, we were all created for His pleasure.

[Rufo]

PeaceCrusader, though this might be a complex issue, according to Islam the Lord God of the Bible and Allah are the same God. Allah is the Arabic word for 'God', and it is used to refer to the Lord God the same way as 'God' is used in English.

You use the Bible as the source for your criticism of the concept of the Lord God and Allah being one and the same. However, this will not convince any Muslims, since according to Islam the Qu'ran is the only version of God's word that has not been edited, translated or changed throughout the ages. The Holy Bible has evidently been edited and translated several times since it was first written, whereas the Qu'ran has been considerably less, if at all, subjected to this kind of changes. It could be argued that the flaws the Bible got from this kind of treatment incorrectly conveys the impression that the Gods are not the same.

But I don't know who you are trying to convince.

I don't recognise the five pillars of faith for Muslims in the OP, I always thought they were

1) There is one God called Allah and Muhammad is his prophet
2) Daily Prayer
3) Charity
4) Fasting
5) Pilgrimage
They are. PeaceCrusader is writing about the articles of belief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_articles_of_belief), though he skips the last one (faith, qadar) and also suggests that they apply to all Muslims, while they are in fact a Sunni tradition.

This, by the way, is what is not correct in those doctrines. Pointed out and explained.

[ClintonHammond]

"So many gods"
Actually, there isn't a single one...

[Beady]

Is there anything in these doctrines not correct or not clear? If so, please point it out and explain



It's all clear enough, but as to "correct":God. There is no evidence such an entity exists.

Angels. Ditto.

Scripture. There is no evidence any religious text is inspired.

Prophets. Every religion has its prophets and, at bottom, it's virtually impossible to tell them or their doctrines apart.

Last Days, Paradise, etc. We've been in the supposed Last Days ever since someone thought up the phrase, and I suspect we will be until the sun burns out in however many billion years. As for Paradise, I'm getting my ticket punched for Valhalla.

[Taffer]

Heck, there's a hundred different Jesuses.

I wonder if that should be "Jesi"? :D

ETA: Or, if it follows the same convention as "Octopus", perhaps it should be "Jesoda"...

[wombatwal]

Is the Qu'ran from the true God?

Why not ask this on this forum. http://forums.muslimvillage.net/index.php?act=idx

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Wombatwal and Fellow Forumers,

Is the Qu'ran from the true God?

Why not ask this on this forum. http://forums.muslimvillage.net/index.php?act=idx


Thanks a lot for the information.

I will post the question in that forum too to get the opinion of Muslims, in particular. Anyway, this concerns them so it may be advantageous for them to ponder on it.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Darat and Fellow Forumers,

I don't recognise the five pillars of faith for Muslims in the OP, I always thought they were

1) There is one God called Allah and Muhammad is his prophet
2) Daily Prayer
3) Charity
4) Fasting
5) Pilgrimage

What I presented are the Five Articles of Faith. What you presented are the Five Pillars of Faith. Rufo has been kind to clarify it and added a sixth article of faith. This is called Kismet, the doctrine of fate or the belief in God’s decrees—a very rigid belief of predestination wherein all good or evil deeds proceed from the will of God. Many Muslims believe that this major teaching of Islam belongs to the five articles.

I believe that God is good and He does like His creation to do evil deeds. That is why one of His commandments is to love your neighbor as you love your self. You don’t want your things to be stolen, so you shall not steal. You don’t want others hurt or kill you, so you shall not hurt or kill others.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Rufo and Fellow Forumers,
PeaceCrusader, though this might be a complex issue, according to Islam the Lord God of the Bible and Allah are the same God. Allah is the Arabic word for 'God', and it is used to refer to the Lord God the same way as 'God' is used in English.

I know that God is known by different names. Allah may be the Arabic word for ‘God’ but is he the same Lord God of the Bible? Again, I ask, without any holy scripture, just plain logic, how do you consider a god as god? How can you differentiate the true God from the false gods?
You use the Bible as the source for your criticism of the concept of the Lord God and Allah being one and the same. However, this will not convince any Muslims, since according to Islam the Qu'ran is the only version of God's word that has not been edited, translated or changed throughout the ages. The Holy Bible has evidently been edited and translated several times since it was first written, whereas the Qu'ran has been considerably less, if at all, subjected to this kind of changes. It could be argued that the flaws the Bible got from this kind of treatment incorrectly conveys the impression that the Gods are not the same.

But I don't know who you are trying to convince.

You claim that the Qu’ran has not been changed through the ages. That may be true. Still in the original Arabic text I suppose after about 1600 years. But does that justify that it is from the true God? I am asking: why did the Lord God not reveal the Qu’ran directly to Muhammad? Why through an angel? Are you sure that that angel is angel Gabriel?

I have mentioned that to all the great prophets or messengers of God that the Muslims recognize, the Lord God talked directly to them, except to Muhammad. Why?

The Holy Bible may have “been edited and translated several times since it was first written” but does that mean that it is not from the Lord God? That is why the spirit we talk to recommended that we use the King James Version because it is, according to Him, nearer the truth.

Now, even if the Bible has been edited and changed, don’t you think that there is somebody who knows and can tell us which is correct and which is wrong (because of changes)? Do you know who that somebody is? FYI, He is the Holy Spirit who Jesus said that He would send after He departed. True enough, the Holy Spirit came and gave the 120 or so followers of Jesus who were waiting in a house in Jerusalem after Jesus ascended to Heaven at Mount Olivet the gift of speaking in tongues. That is why the disciples led by Peter was able to talk to the pilgrims who came to Jerusalem from different parts of the world in their own native language.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[This Guy]

Dear Rufo and Fellow Forumers,


I know that God is known by different names. Allah may be the Arabic word for ‘God’ but is he the same Lord God of the Bible? Again, I ask, without any holy scripture, just plain logic, how do you consider a god as god? How can you differentiate the true God from the false gods?


You claim that the Qu’ran has not been changed through the ages. That may be true. Still in the original Arabic text I suppose after about 1600 years. But does that justify that it is from the true God? I am asking: why did the Lord God not reveal the Qu’ran directly to Muhammad? Why through an angel? Are you sure that that angel is angel Gabriel?

I have mentioned that to all the great prophets or messengers of God that the Muslims recognize, the Lord God talked directly to them, except to Muhammad. Why?

The Holy Bible may have “been edited and translated several times since it was first written” but does that mean that it is not from the Lord God? That is why the spirit we talk to recommended that we use the King James Version because it is, according to Him, nearer the truth.

Now, even if the Bible has been edited and changed, don’t you think that there is somebody who knows and can tell us which is correct and which is wrong (because of changes)? Do you know who that somebody is? FYI, He is the Holy Spirit who Jesus said that He would send after He departed. True enough, the Holy Spirit came and gave the 120 or so followers of Jesus who were waiting in a house in Jerusalem after Jesus ascended to Heaven at Mount Olivet the gift of speaking in tongues. That is why the disciples led by Peter was able to talk to the pilgrims who came to Jerusalem from different parts of the world in their own native language.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

As someone else asked above, it would be great the hear a recording of these conversations (well, not really, it would only prove two people talked to each other). But I suspect that this spirit talks directly to your soul, and there is no actual audio to be heard by anyone else?

This, if true, would point more to delusion than conversation.

Perhaps, as a sign to this unbeliever, you can ask this spirit, the next time you talk, what my real name and address are? Then post them here for me to see! I'm sure this spirit, if it's any kind of decent spirit at all, will be able to tell you.

And I'm sure that the spirit, if it's a true Holy spirit, won't mind being tested. After all, as we read in it's reccomended referance -

1 John 4 (KJV)

1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

I'll be waiting :)

[kmortis]

Dear Rufo and Fellow Forumers,


I know that God is known by different names. Allah may be the Arabic word for ‘God’ but is he the same Lord God of the Bible? Again, I ask, without any holy scripture, just plain logic, how do you consider a god as god? How can you differentiate the true God from the false gods?[quote]
Assumption 1: There is a god.
This is a big one for a lot of people here to get over. There is scant (if any) solid evidence that there is, in fact, a deity.

Assumption 2: Assuming, a priori, that Assumption 1 has a positive answer, that deity is the deity of the People of the Book (Jews, Christians, Muslims).
This is another big sticking point. What makes those fairy tales any more true than the fairy tales of the Hindus? Of the Neo-Pagans? Of the Native Americans? Etc.

Until those two assumptions are satisified, your question "How can you differentiate the true God from the false gods?" is meaningless. You're missing a very important option...that there is no god of any sort, true, false or tri-state.



[QUOTE=PeaceCrusader;2353907]You claim that the Qu’ran has not been changed through the ages. That may be true. Still in the original Arabic text I suppose after about 1600 years. But does that justify that it is from the true God? I am asking: why did the Lord God not reveal the Qu’ran directly to Muhammad? Why through an angel? Are you sure that that angel is angel Gabriel?
If you read carefully, you'll see that Rufo clearly said "according to Islam the Qu'ran is the only version of God's word that has not been edited, translated or changed throughout the ages". I don't know Rufo well enough to know if they are a Muslim and that that statment is their own.

In any case, it doesn't matter. That a religion claims that their holy book hasn't changed is de rigeur, really.

Ok, there's no evidence that there are ANY angels, let alone Gabriel. So, that a camel trader in the 600's claims that he got the Word Of Godtm from something that most likely doesn't exist to begin with, tells me more about Muhammed's mental state, than any kind of deity. At least Guatama had the good sense to starve himself to make his delusions understandable.


I have mentioned that to all the great prophets or messengers of God that the Muslims recognize, the Lord God talked directly to them, except to Muhammad. Why?
And you have evidence of these talkings, do you? Something other than a holy book of questionable veracity?

The Holy Bible may have “been edited and translated several times since it was first written” but does that mean that it is not from the Lord God? That is why the spirit we talk to recommended that we use the King James Version because it is, according to Him, nearer the truth.
1) See Assumption 1, above.
2) If there is a god, and it is the Judeo-Christian one, this Bible of yours was written in a few languages. None of which were English. So saying that the KJV is the one that is "nearer the truth" is just silly. It doesn't follow by any strech of the imagination. I'll give the Muslims something here, at least they say that the only true translation is the origional Arabic.
3) You're talking to spirits? Ok, time to intorduce you to a little rule of thumb. If you're talking to god, it's called prayer; if god is talking to you, it's called schitzophrenia.

Now, even if the Bible has been edited and changed, don’t you think that there is somebody who knows and can tell us which is correct and which is wrong (because of changes)? Do you know who that somebody is? FYI, He is the Holy Spirit who Jesus said that He would send after He departed. True enough, the Holy Spirit came and gave the 120 or so followers of Jesus who were waiting in a house in Jerusalem after Jesus ascended to Heaven at Mount Olivet the gift of speaking in tongues. That is why the disciples led by Peter was able to talk to the pilgrims who came to Jerusalem from different parts of the world in their own native language.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
Ok, until you can prove that this god of yours exists, you cannot use him in an argument. So, go back, brush up on your apologietics, learn a bit about making a cogent argument, then come back. Thank you.

[Ichneumonwasp]

Is the Qu'ran from the true God?


Why, yes, it is. Why did God act the way He did? Because that is how He wanted it. Why are you questioning God? Damn, you must be one holy mother do be able to do that. I would never think of questioning God.

By the way, you've never read the Qu'ran have you? If you have bothered to do so, could you please show me the substantive difference between the passages in the Qu'ran and the books of Genesis and Exodus? It certainly seems to me that Mohamed wrote the "words of God" from the deity's perspective. He received these revelations over a very long period (~ 20 years or so). It never expressly says that Gabriel was responsible for every single revelation. Besides the Abraham story seems to include angels more than God Himself (except possibly in dreams and who knows who it was doing the talking there). What difference could it possibly make if the message comes from God through an angel or from God Himself? Is it possible that Noah received his message through angels? I mean that is their job after all, isn't it, being messengers?

[DangerousBeliefs]

Does the Qu'ran mention Noah and the great flood? (Hint: yes)

Then it is just as false as the Bible.

So yes, the same false god as in the Bible is also in the Qu'ran.

The one true god is Thor - god of thunder. I hear him talking loud and clear.

[Ichneumonwasp]

Why, in fact, thinking about it the Qu'ran must be true. God is so great that no man could possibly withstand His presence. The Bible must either lie or be corrupted. Only the Qu'ran gets it right. The prophet was visited by angels. Men, as corrupt as we are, could not possibly have interacted directly with God. Thanks PeaceCrusader. I don't think I would ever have been able to see the truth if you hadn't asked these questions.

[Ichneumonwasp]

No, really, it must be so. Since Adam ate of the fruit we are all corrupt. The reason for Jesus' sacrifice is that we are completely and utterly separated from God because of this corruption. So God could not have spoken to any human being since the Fall (or there is/was no utter separation). Since the Bible says that God did speak to humans, then either the theology is wrong, the Bible is wrong, or Jesus didn't need to die. We could be near God simply by His choosing it, even if we are murderers.

Ergo, Islam is the one true religion. Time for a mass conversion.

[Ladewig]

2) If there is a god, and it is the Judeo-Christian one, this Bible of yours was written in a few languages. None of which were English. So saying that the KJV is the one that is "nearer the truth" is just silly. It doesn't follow by any strech of the imagination.


Actually, there are some fundamentalists that believe that the Holy Spirit descended on the translators of the KJV of the Bible and thus it is literally "nearer the truth" than any other version of the Bible. That being said, I'll agree with you that the concept is silly. I just wanted to point out that it is not beyond "any stretch of the imagination."

As for PeaceCrusader, I am baffled as to why a (apparently fundamentalist) Christian would come to a skeptic board to use logic to attack Islam. PC, why do you think Christianity will stand up to the same logic that is used to knock down Islam?

[Morwen]

How can you differentiate the true God from the false gods?
Objectively? Without resorting to "faith" or circular reasoning? So that even non-believers could make the distinction?

You can't.

[Ichneumonwasp]

Objectively? Without resorting to "faith" or circular reasoning? So that even non-believers could make the distinction?

You can't.





Oh, no, no. We do it by the words of the Bible. We judge by its fruits. And since we now see logically that either the Bible is wrong, Christian theology is wrong, or Jesus needn't have died for our sins, then it is clear by its fruits that Christianity cannot be the one true faith. I think we owe PC a great round of applause for showing us this by allowing us to work it out for ourselves. Clearly that must have been his intent.

Now where did I put that prayer rug............

[DangerousBeliefs]

Oh, no, no. We do it by the words of the Bible. We judge by its fruits. And since we now see logically that either the Bible is wrong, Christian theology is wrong, or Jesus needn't have died for our sins, then it is clear by its fruits that Christianity cannot be the one true faith. I think we owe PC a great round of applause for showing us this by allowing us to work it out for ourselves. Clearly that must have been his intent.

Now where did I put that prayer rug............

So, did a global flood happen?

It's a simple question.

If the answer is no, then what do you think that means for the Qu'ran?

If yes, please provide -ANY- evidence for a global flood.

(That's what Muhammad get's for copying.)

[fuelair]

My Dear Fellowmen,

All Muslims are expected to believe the main doctrines of Islam consisting of five articles of faith. These are:

God. His name is Allah and is the supreme being of all. He is uncreated, without beginning or end. He created all.
Angels. Every person has two angels; one records his good deeds, and the other, his bad deeds. Jibreel (Gabriel) is the angel who brought the revelation of the Qu’ran to Muhammad.
Scripture. The four inspired books in Islam are the Taurat (Torah or the first five books of Moses), the Zaboor (Psalms of David), the Injeel (gospel message of Jesus Christ in the New Testament), and the Qu’ran. The Qu’ran supersedes the other books since it is the last and final revelation of Allah.
Prophets. Among the numerous prophets or messengers of Allah, the six greatest are Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad.
Last Days. All people will be resurrected on the last day to be judged. Muslims will go to the Garden of Paradise, the Islamic heaven, and the rest will be tormented in hell. The Islamic heaven is a place of entertainment where men and their wives will be reclining in raised couches and shall have whatever they desire. Is there anything in these doctrines not correct or not clear? If so, please point it out and explain.

Did the Lord God talk to His prophets?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible created Adam, and out of Adam’s rib, Eve. When they sinned by disobeying God, God drove them out from the garden of Eden. God talked to Adam. If Adam is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible told Noah to build an ark for He would destroy all flesh because of man’s wickedness. In Genesis 6:18 (KJV), God said, “But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons’ wives with thee.” God spared these eight persons and the living things in the ark when God flooded the earth. God talked to Noah. If Noah is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible made a covenant with Abram (later called Abraham): “Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates” (Genesis 15:18, KJV). Notice that God said, “Unto thy seed.” Singular. Only one. Abraham had two children: Ishmael, the descendants of whom are Muhammad and the Arabs and the Muslims; and Isaac, the descendants of whom are the Jews and Jesus. Who is this seed that God was referring to? God talked to Abraham. If Abraham is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible made Moses to lead in the liberation of the Israelites from about 400 years of bondage in Egypt. God talked to Moses. If Moses is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible said, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” during Jesus’ baptism (Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:21) and in the transfiguration, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him” (Matthew 17:5, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35). God said of this prophet Jesus, “hear ye him.” If Jesus is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why He is so?

The Holy Bible does not mention the name Muhammad. He is supposedly the last and final prophet although God did not talk to him. The Qu’ran was revealed to him by the angel Jibreel (Gabriel). Why is it that it is not God who directly reveal the Qu’ran to him? If Muhammad is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

Is Allah of the Qu’ran and the Lord God of the Holy Bible one and the same?

The peace of the true God reign in our hearts now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
Motto: pro aris et focis
http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/ (http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/)
“The Internet is mightier than the sword.”


If you mean by that, are they both fictional characters derived from old myths and stories which for some unimaginable reason have millions of followers who do not understand they are imagionary - then yes, they are similar constructs of fantasy. If you mean anything else - and I suspect you do - it's a pointless discussion as you choose to believe but there is zero (0, none) evidence of an actual being/beings of that type.
think they are real

[Ichneumonwasp]

Oh, um, well, clearly Muhammed only meant the flood in a metaphorical sense. Yeah, metaphorical. That's the ticket. Part of the poetry and all. Yeah.

It's true!*



*for a given value of truth

[DangerousBeliefs]

Oh, um, well, clearly Muhammed only meant the flood in a metaphorical sense. Yeah, metaphorical. That's the ticket. Part of the poetry and all. Yeah.

It's true!*



*for a given value of truth

:D

[Foster Zygote]

Dear Rufo and Fellow Forumers,


I know that God is known by different names. Allah may be the Arabic word for ‘God’ but is he the same Lord God of the Bible? Again, I ask, without any holy scripture, just plain logic, how do you consider a god as god? How can you differentiate the true God from the false gods?


You claim that the Qu’ran has not been changed through the ages. That may be true. Still in the original Arabic text I suppose after about 1600 years. But does that justify that it is from the true God? I am asking: why did the Lord God not reveal the Qu’ran directly to Muhammad? Why through an angel? Are you sure that that angel is angel Gabriel?

I have mentioned that to all the great prophets or messengers of God that the Muslims recognize, the Lord God talked directly to them, except to Muhammad. Why?

The Holy Bible may have “been edited and translated several times since it was first written” but does that mean that it is not from the Lord God? That is why the spirit we talk to recommended that we use the King James Version because it is, according to Him, nearer the truth.

Now, even if the Bible has been edited and changed, don’t you think that there is somebody who knows and can tell us which is correct and which is wrong (because of changes)? Do you know who that somebody is? FYI, He is the Holy Spirit who Jesus said that He would send after He departed. True enough, the Holy Spirit came and gave the 120 or so followers of Jesus who were waiting in a house in Jerusalem after Jesus ascended to Heaven at Mount Olivet the gift of speaking in tongues. That is why the disciples led by Peter was able to talk to the pilgrims who came to Jerusalem from different parts of the world in their own native language.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

I, and most others here, have no trouble applying skepticism to the Koran. But we also apply the same skepticism to the Bible, and any other "divinely inspired" religious text.

[hgc]

I have mentioned that to all the great prophets or messengers of God that the Muslims recognize, the Lord God talked directly to them, except to Muhammad. Why?
He had learned to delegate by then.

[Zep]

I'd like to see this flying horse that Mohammed ascended into heaven on. It would make a great marketing logo!

[wahrheit]

I'd like to see this flying horse that Mohammed ascended into heaven on. It would make a great marketing logo!

You're such a catty party-pooper. As has been mentioned previously in this thread, all the really cool and fun stuff in them holy books is metaphorical. Got it? :rolleyes:

[Marquis de Carabas]

You're such a catty party-pooper. As has been mentioned previously in this thread, all the really cool and fun stuff in them holy books is metaphorical. Got it? :rolleyes:
Does this mean I should stop searching fishies for tax money?

[RationalReverend]

I don't recognise the five pillars of faith for Muslims in the OP, I always thought they were

1) There is one God called Allah and Muhammad is his prophet
2) Daily Prayer
3) Charity
4) Fasting
5) Pilgrimage

If my memory serves me, you are correct. However, I must disagree with those who would say that Islam developed independently of Judeo-Christian influence. It very clearly did not, and was treated early on as a Christianity-based cult. Islam is just 6th century Mormonism.

[SezMe]

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
What is an "Echo" in this context?

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear SezMe and Fellow Forumers,

What is an "Echo" in this context?

I am just an echo, a sounding board, one who repeats or passes on what I heard from the Holy Spirit. The words of the Holy Spirit--His sermons, messages, prayers, proverbs, prophecies, poems--that you find in my website are His and not mine. I do not have that talent or ability to compose or say such things. They came from transcriptions of tape recordings of our sessions with the Holy Spirit.

I do not force anyone to believe in what I believe in. People may pick up from the Holy Spirit's messages what they think is good for them and discard or ignore anything evil, if any. I am not responsible for the salvation of one's soul. It is his. I am just sharing the good food that I tasted from the Holy Spirit. What He told us, "Food that is delicious should not be kept to oneself. Share it."

Did you know that I bought a second hand economy car for use in commuting to work about six months ago? Did you know that it is a Toyota Echo? Did you know that its registration plate number is 462 IDE? Did you know that IDE, I realized later, stands for "I Thee Echo"? Did you know that prior to this car, the registration number that I got for our previous family car was 240 ICD? Did you know that ICD stands for the equivalent text message "I see Thee"? Did you know that ICD also stands for the Latin "Iesus Christus Deus" or "Jesus Christ God"? Coincidences? There are plenty of "coincidences" in my life.

After I found out the significance of Echo, I included it with my signature of Peace Crusader as what you quoted. Because that is what I am--just an Echo of the Holy Spirit.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[SezMe]

They came from transcriptions of tape recordings of our sessions with the Holy Spirit.
Two questions: As someone else asked up-thread, could you post one of those recordings...or at least a part of it? If not, why not?

"our sessions"? Who else is involved?

[SimonD]

Is the Qu'ran from the true God?

No

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Zep and Fellow Forumers,

I'd like to see this flying horse that Mohammed ascended into heaven on. It would make a great marketing logo!

I do not know the story about Muhammad's ascension to heaven. Was there really a flying horse that took him to heaven? What time did the ascension happen? Were there witnesses?

For forty days after the resurrection of Jesus from His three-days-and-three-nights burial in the tomb, His disciples saw Him alive and He spoke about the kingdom of God. The story of the ascension of Jesus is stated in Act 1 of the Holy Bible. On the day of His ascension, He commanded them not to depart from Jersualem, but to wait for the promise of their baptism with the Holy Spirit. After He had spoken, "while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'" (Holy Bible, New King James, Acts 1:9-11)

When Jesus ascended to Heaven, there were witnesses and it was during daytime. He floated up towards Heaven until a cloud received Him and He became out of sight. Please compare this with that of Muhammad's.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[SezMe]

I'd like to see this flying horse that Mohammed ascended into heaven on. It would make a great marketing logo!
At your service, sir (http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Mobilgas-Pegasus-Round-Posters_i995048_.htm).

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear SezMe and Fellow Forumers,

Two questions: As someone else asked up-thread, could you post one of those recordings...or at least a part of it? If not, why not?

"our sessions"? Who else is involved?

I would love to post the recordings on the Internet but I do not know how. I was told that I can connect my tape recorder to the PC and the recording will be put in an MP3 file, but a software is needed to do this. I don't have that software. Could you please tell me how it is done and the software I need and where I can obtain it?

Meantime, you may read the transcriptions from my website. Rest assured that they were my translation to English from the original Pilipino text of these transcriptions. Most likely, the Pilipino text is already uploaded.

There are other people present during these sessions. They are held on Sundays during the day. There may be two or three sessions, each session lasting from 20 minutes up to 45 minutes, sometimes, even up to an hour. You may read my postings in alt.religion.christian, one of which is regarding Mary Magdalene posted sometime in May 2006. Please notice the six people who participated in the questioning: Alvara Cabalda, Anita Perez, Manuel de la Cruz, Raymond Bautista, Crescencia Dalangin, and myself. I am just one of the listeners. I may list down the other people who regularly attend the sessions, if you wish.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[Ducky]

Dear Zep and Fellow Forumers,



I do not know the story about Muhammad's ascension to heaven. Was there really a flying horse that took him to heaven? What time did the ascension happen? Were there witnesses?

For forty days after the resurrection of Jesus from His three-days-and-three-nights burial in the tomb, His disciples saw Him alive and He spoke about the kingdom of God. The story of the ascension of Jesus is stated in Act 1 of the Holy Bible. On the day of His ascension, He commanded them not to depart from Jersualem, but to wait for the promise of their baptism with the Holy Spirit. After He had spoken, "while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'" (Holy Bible, New King James, Acts 1:9-11)

When Jesus ascended to Heaven, there were witnesses and it was during daytime. He floated up towards Heaven until a cloud received Him and He became out of sight. Please compare this with that of Muhammad's.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo



How exactly is it logical for you to make a judgement call on the truth of the Quran when you obviously know nothing about it? Seems to me that's like never using linux because you've always used windows, then saying windows is the one true operating system.

[Björn Toulouse]

Did you know that I bought a second hand economy car for use in commuting to work about six months ago? Did you know that it is a Toyota Echo? Did you know that its registration plate number is 462 IDE? Did you know that IDE, I realized later, stands for "I Thee Echo"?


Well, if you had said it was 432 and not 462, i would have said you were on to something.

[a_unique_person]

In response to the OP, the answer is "no".

IDE stands for Integrated Development Environment.

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Foster Zygote and Fellow Forumers,

I, and most others here, have no trouble applying skepticism to the Koran. But we also apply the same skepticism to the Bible, and any other "divinely inspired" religious text.

I appreciate your skepticism. As the saying goes, "Doubt first before you believe."

I am glad that I came to know this forum, for you, as intellectual skeptics, can scrutinize my experience with the Holy Spirit. I will not bluff you to find a way out. I will tell you truthfully what my experiences are with the Holy Spirit and it is up to you to evaluate these experiences.

I have raised a question at the JREF Challenge. You may read it, if you are interested. Actually, I have written the woman in the Philippines who is appropriated by the Holy Spirit in communicating with the people about two weeks ago. I have not received a reply yet from the woman or from her household or from any of the listeners of the Holy Spirit, either through email or through snail mail.

I have requested that the spirit undergo a test to be conducted by JREF. I suggested that 25 items are put inside a box and seal it. Then ask the spirit what the box contains. I said, success means naming ALL 25 items correctly, and any thing wrong is a failure. I am still waiting for the reply of the spirit.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Fowlsound and Fellow Forumers,

How exactly is it logical for you to make a judgement call on the truth of the Quran when you obviously know nothing about it? Seems to me that's like never using linux because you've always used windows, then saying windows is the one true operating system.

What I put in the original post is what I learned from reading religious books, including, of course, the Holy Bible, where I quoted it appropriately. How do you think will I know those things if I did not do my readings?

I can tell you that I am not an expert of Christianity or even the Holy Bible. That is why I read, and discuss and learn from Internet forums like this. I do not know the Qu'ran well but I read about it, like the three English translations of the book in Christian Apologetics website.

If you know about the Qu'ran well, then answer my questions raised in the original post. I am just asking. I do not know much. The Holy Spirit told us, "Asking questions is a way to learning." If I will not raise my questions, I may remain an ignoramus.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[Ducky]

Dear Fowlsound and Fellow Forumers,



What I put in the original post is what I learned from reading religious books, including, of course, the Holy Bible, where I quoted it appropriately. How do you think will I know those things if I did not do my readings?

I can tell you that I am not an expert of Christianity or even the Holy Bible. That is why I read, and discuss and learn from Internet forums like this. I do not know the Qu'ran well but I read about it, like the three English translations of the book in Christian Apologetics website.

If you know about the Qu'ran well, then answer my questions raised in the original post. I am just asking. I do not know much. The Holy Spirit told us, "Asking questions is a way to learning." If I will not raise my questions, I may remain an ignoramus.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

Ah I see. "Just asking questions." Perhaps then, if you are truly out for answers you could buy yourself a copy of the Quran and read it, instead of having us do your thinking for you.

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Bjorn Toulouse and Fellow Forumers,

Well, if you had said it was 432 and not 462, i would have said you were on to something.

I wish I would know what 462 means in the Toyota Echo car registration plate number 462 IDE. I also wish to know what 240 means in the other car registration plate number 240 ICD.

At least, I now know that the number 888 is the number of Jesus. You may check the Internet or read my website about it. I discovered that in 1994.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[Beady]

Perhaps then, if you are truly out for answers you could buy yourself a copy of the Quran and read it, instead of having us do your thinking for you.

Unnecessary to lay out money. Like the Bible, the Koran (I prefer the simpler spelling) is available free, online, from several web sites. I like this (http://www.temple.edu/ih/Koran/OnlineTexts/index.htm) one.

[Rufo]

I know that God is known by different names. Allah may be the Arabic word for ‘God’ but is he the same Lord God of the Bible? Again, I ask, without any holy scripture, just plain logic, how do you consider a god as god? How can you differentiate the true God from the false gods?
What I meant is that the word 'Allah' is used in Arabic as the word 'God' is in English. That is, Christians and Jews speaking Arabic say they believe in 'Allah', and even people of other religions with no connection to Islam, Judaism or Christianity may say they believe in 'Allah', because it simply means 'God' and can refer to any God, just like the word 'God' can in English. When you say 'Allah', speaking English, I know you refer to the God of Islam, I'm just saying we should be careful with the term.

As for differentiating between false and true Gods without a holy scripture, I suppose you would have to trust your gut feeling or just be consistent and dismiss them all as false, as pointed out by other posters. You can also choose to dismiss those scriptures who appear inconsistant, but since many claim that would include the Holy Bible, I suppose it is not your preferred method.

You claim that the Qu’ran has not been changed through the ages. That may be true. Still in the original Arabic text I suppose after about 1600 years. But does that justify that it is from the true God? I am asking: why did the Lord God not reveal the Qu’ran directly to Muhammad? Why through an angel? Are you sure that that angel is angel Gabriel?

I have mentioned that to all the great prophets or messengers of God that the Muslims recognize, the Lord God talked directly to them, except to Muhammad. Why?
The relative well-keptness of the Qu'ran is not proof it is from the true God, no. I did not know you wanted proof and I can not provide you with it.

Why did the Lord not reveal the Qu'ran directly to Muhammad, but through an angel? You might as well ask yourself why He (according to both the Qu'ran and the Holy Bible) did not reveal directly to Mary she was going to give birth to Jesus Christ, but sent the very same angel to deliver the message. She may not have been what you would call a prophet, but the message was important all the same. So why send Gabriel?

Islam quite clearly teaches that the angel Gabriel was the one who delivered the Qu'ran to Muhammad and the one who delivered the message of Christs' birth to Mary. I know there has been some controversy between Christians and Muslims regarding the scripture upon which this faith is based, but I have not heard of any Muslims questioning the identity of the angel.

The Holy Bible may have “been edited and translated several times since it was first written” but does that mean that it is not from the Lord God? That is why the spirit we talk to recommended that we use the King James Version because it is, according to Him, nearer the truth.
According to Islam, the Holy Bible is indeed from the Lord God. But the belief that the King James version would be correct, free from the flaws from the edits and translations, is not one that Muslims share. In fact, not even all Christians share it.

I'd like to see this flying horse that Mohammed ascended into heaven on. It would make a great marketing logo!
The being is called the buraq and is not by definition a horse. Googling for "buraq" will give you a few pictures, but be careful not to get into any copyright issues with Buraq Air (http://www.buraqair.com/) if you make a logo. ;)

When Jesus ascended to Heaven, there were witnesses and it was during daytime. He floated up towards Heaven until a cloud received Him and He became out of sight. Please compare this with that of Muhammad's.
Muhammad's ascent was different, and it has been suggested by some muslims that it was a spiritual journey only.

[Foster Zygote]

In response to the OP, the answer is "no".

IDE stands for Integrated Development Environment.

No, it clearly makes reference to a Vegas act known as the Infinite Dancing Elvi.

[fuelair]

Dear SezMe and Fellow Forumers,



I am just an echo, a sounding board, one who repeats or passes on what I heard from the Holy Spirit. The words of the Holy Spirit--His sermons, messages, prayers, proverbs, prophecies, poems--that you find in my website are His and not mine. I do not have that talent or ability to compose or say such things. They came from transcriptions of tape recordings of our sessions with the Holy Spirit.

I do not force anyone to believe in what I believe in. People may pick up from the Holy Spirit's messages what they think is good for them and discard or ignore anything evil, if any. I am not responsible for the salvation of one's soul. It is his. I am just sharing the good food that I tasted from the Holy Spirit. What He told us, "Food that is delicious should not be kept to oneself. Share it."

Did you know that I bought a second hand economy car for use in commuting to work about six months ago? Did you know that it is a Toyota Echo? Did you know that its registration plate number is 462 IDE? Did you know that IDE, I realized later, stands for "I Thee Echo"? Did you know that prior to this car, the registration number that I got for our previous family car was 240 ICD? Did you know that ICD stands for the equivalent text message "I see Thee"? Did you know that ICD also stands for the Latin "Iesus Christus Deus" or "Jesus Christ God"? Coincidences? There are plenty of "coincidences" in my life.

After I found out the significance of Echo, I included it with my signature of Peace Crusader as what you quoted. Because that is what I am--just an Echo of the Holy Spirit.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

Did you know there are people - we call them psychiatrists - who can help you through this troubled time in your life! Just buck up, go see one for a few years and you'll be right as rain and no longer all wet!

[SezMe]

I would love to post the recordings on the Internet but I do not know how.
How pathetic an excuse is that?

Could you please tell me how it is done and the software I need and where I can obtain it?
No, do your own homework. Ask a computer literate friend of yours. Read your help files or do some googling. Whatever - it will take no more than a half-hour to get up to speed. That's less time than you've spent posting here.

Meantime, you may read the transcriptions from my website. Rest assured that they were my translation to English from the original Pilipino text of these transcriptions. Most likely, the Pilipino text is already uploaded.
God speaks Pilipino? Neat. Is the voice male or female?

[CapelDodger]

Did you know there are people - we call them psychiatrists - who can help you through this troubled time in your life! Just buck up, go see one for a few years and you'll be right as rain and no longer all wet!
That's easy for you to say, but what about the people that need the eggs? This guy discovered the number of Jesus back in 1994, he must have followers by now. That's gotta be a serious number, after all. 888 - the Chinese were right all along! It prompts one to reappraise one's whole world-view.

[Darth Rotor]

I, and most others here, have no trouble applying skepticism to the Koran.
Evidence of this claim would be of interest.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Dear SezMe and Fellow Forumers,

I am just an echo, a sounding board, one who repeats or passes on what I heard from the Holy Spirit.
==
After I found out the significance of Echo, I included it with my signature of Peace Crusader as what you quoted. Because that is what I am--just an Echo of the Holy Spirit.

Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
I prefer to picture Echo as the gorgeous, nubile, hottie clad in sheer, diaphanous gowns. Narcissus, who scorned her, was doubtless enamored of a goat, the cad!

If you are not said hottie, we'll pine as the nymphs did over Narcissus at his death.

Echo fell in love with Narcissus, who spurned her love, and she, because of her grief, faded away with the exception of her voice. Echo, they say, disappeared from woods and mountains so completely that not even her bones remained, which were turned into stone, yet she mourned him

However, it has also been said that when the NYMPHS grieved Narcissus, among them there was also Echo, and that when they prepared his funeral pyre, they could not find his body, and in its place they found the flower, which today bears his name.
http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Echo.html

DR

[Jon.]

I prefer to picture Echo as the gorgeous, nubile, hottie clad in sheer, diaphanous gowns. Narcissus, who scorned her, was doubtless enamored of a goat, the cad!



I think you'll find that Narcissus was excessively enamoured of himself, and spent all his time staring at his reflection in a pond. This is where we get the name of the personality trait narcissism. IIRC, he was turned into a flower called, strangely enough, the narcissus.

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Darth Rotor and Fellow Forumers,

I prefer to picture Echo as the gorgeous, nubile, hottie clad in sheer, diaphanous gowns. Narcissus, who scorned her, was doubtless enamored of a goat, the cad!

If you are not said hottie, we'll pine as the nymphs did over Narcissus at his death.

http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Echo.html

DR


Echo fell in love with Narcissus, who spurned her love, and she, because of her grief, faded away with the exception of her voice. Echo, they say, disappeared from woods and mountains so completely that not even her bones remained, which were turned into stone, yet she mourned him

Thanks a lot for the information. I did not know that Echo was in Greek mythology.

Is that story of Echo how the English word "echo" was derived?

Would you believe that Greek mythology personalities have come into my life? Artemis is the main software that I used in computer programming. Apollo is the brand of Holden car maker that we bought in 1994 (still being used) as the family car. It is the re-badged Toyota Camry, may be the model Spirit. And now, Echo, another Greek character.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[Darat]

Evidence of this claim would be of interest.

DR

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2132449#post2132449

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=97917#post97917

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=940141#post940141

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=574263#post574263

Not much because since the Forum started neither the book or its teachings has been brought up that much as a discussion topic. We've indeed only ever had a few "self confessed" Muslims as Members that I can recall.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Is the Qu'ran from the true God?
Did the Lord God talk to His prophets?
All of the above questions, and most of the others contained in your post are all a combination of false dilemmas (http://www.galilean-library.org/int16.html#false_dilemma) and begging the question (http://www.galilean-library.org/int16.html#begging_the_question). Your entire post appears to be founded on two presumptions (1) that there is a God and (2) either the Bible or the Quran is the word thereof. I think you'll find that those two presumptions will not be accepted at face value on this forum.

Is Allah of the Qu’ran and the Lord God of the Holy Bible one and the same?
This, however, is a question that can be discussed, as some previous posters have begun to address. However, I fear that a historical and literary analysis is not what you are hoping to hear.

[Darth Rotor]

I think you'll find that Narcissus was excessively enamoured of himself, and spent all his time staring at his reflection in a pond. This is where we get the name of the personality trait narcissism. IIRC, he was turned into a flower called, strangely enough, the narcissus.
That is the PG version you were taught in school. ;)

DR

[Darth Rotor]

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2132449#post2132449

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=97917#post97917

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=940141#post940141

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=574263#post574263

Not much because since the Forum started neither the book or its teachings has been brought up that much as a discussion topic. We've indeed only ever had a few "self confessed" Muslims as Members that I can recall.
Thanks, Darat, much appreciated. I would have figured that the period 2001 - 2003 would have seen a lively bit of discussion among the considerable brain power embodied in the board's various visitors.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Is that story of Echo how the English word "echo" was derived?


Yep.

I drive a Saturn. When it comes to cars, it's all Greek to me.

DR

[Darat]

That is the PG version you were taught in school. ;)

DR

And the "original" may have been even more R rated then most realise: http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/POxy/papyri/4711.html

[wahrheit]

Would you believe that Greek mythology personalities have come into my life? Artemis is the main software that I used in computer programming. Apollo is the brand of Holden car maker that we bought in 1994 (still being used) as the family car. It is the re-badged Toyota Camry, may be the model Spirit. And now, Echo, another Greek character.
PeaceCrusader, just like about anybody else on this planet, or say half of it, you are surrounded by countless words of greek (and latin) origin. There are many reasons for this to be found in the past, but it has nothing to do with mythological personalities "coming into one's life".

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Wahrheit and Fellow Forumers,

PeaceCrusader, just like about anybody else on this planet, or say half of it, you are surrounded by countless words of greek (and latin) origin. There are many reasons for this to be found in the past, but it has nothing to do with mythological personalities "coming into one's life".

I know that the English language has "countless words of greek (and latin) origin" but how about characters in Greek mythology only "coming into one's life". Artemis, Apollo, Echo. And I forgot to mention that even my name was derived from a Greek god. Aristeo is the hispanized name of Aristaeus. So there are four of them in my life. Anyone here who can claim the same?

Would you believe that Greek mythology personalities have come into my life? Artemis is the main software that I used in computer programming. Apollo is the brand of Holden car maker that we bought in 1994 (still being used) as the family car. It is the re-badged Toyota Camry, may be the model Spirit. And now, Echo, another Greek character.

I would like to make clear the Apollo car. Apollo is the model of the car manufacturer Holden. We bought our 1991 Apollo car in 1994 and still being used today. Apollo car model is a re-badged Camry of Toyota.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[PeaceCrusader]

My Dear Fellowmen,

The following is my reply in another forum to one who may be a Muslim:

I understand that the Muslims believe in the Taurat (Torah or the first five books of Moses consisting of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and Injeel (the gospel of Jesus Christ in the New Testament). Who are the great prophets or messengers of God according to Islam? Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. I have cited Genesis that showed God had directly talked to Adam, Noah and Abraham. God talked to Moses in the book of Exodus. And God said in Matthew, Mark, and Luke that Jesus is His "beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." God also advised us to "hear ye him" (meaning Jesus). If the Muslims believe in the Taurat and Injeel, then, they would accept that God really talked directly to these prophets or messengers. Why do you say then that God only talked to Moses?

God did not talk directly to Muhammad. The Qu'ran was revealed to him by an angel named Jibreel (Gabriel). My questions are: Why did God not talk directly to Muhammad, especially in giving such very important revelations? Why through an angel? Is the angel really the angel "Gabriel" or an angel who posed as Gabriel? We know that Gabriel is an archangel of God.

That is why Christians are warned about spirits. Preferably, avoid them. I say, are all spirits evil that we have to avoid ALL of them? Should we not be more scrutinizing to check if the spirit is from God or not?

The grace of peace reign in our hearts now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[This Guy]

My Dear Fellowmen,

The following is my reply in another forum to one who may be a Muslim:

I understand that the Muslims believe in the Taurat (Torah or the first five books of Moses consisting of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) and Injeel (the gospel of Jesus Christ in the New Testament). Who are the great prophets or messengers of God according to Islam? Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. I have cited Genesis that showed God had directly talked to Adam, Noah and Abraham. God talked to Moses in the book of Exodus. And God said in Matthew, Mark, and Luke that Jesus is His "beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." God also advised us to "hear ye him" (meaning Jesus). If the Muslims believe in the Taurat and Injeel, then, they would accept that God really talked directly to these prophets or messengers. Why do you say then that God only talked to Moses?

God did not talk directly to Muhammad. The Qu'ran was revealed to him by an angel named Jibreel (Gabriel). My questions are: Why did God not talk directly to Muhammad, especially in giving such very important revelations? Why through an angel? Is the angel really the angel "Gabriel" or an angel who posed as Gabriel? We know that Gabriel is an archangel of God.

That is why Christians are warned about spirits. Preferably, avoid them. I say, are all spirits evil that we have to avoid ALL of them? Should we not be more scrutinizing to check if the spirit is from God or not?

The grace of peace reign in our hearts now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo




Some of us would say that anyone claiming to have heard/spoken to an angel or spirit is confused, and having a bit of a problem separating reality from fantasy.

I would be one of those that feel that way.

And I'm still waiting :)

[RenaissanceBiker]

I'm really sorry to have to tell you all this after the effort you have put into this thread. God told me that he does not exist. So this has just been a waste of time.

[wahrheit]

Dear Wahrheit and Fellow Forumers,



I know that the English language has "countless words of greek (and latin) origin" but how about characters in Greek mythology only "coming into one's life". Artemis, Apollo, Echo. And I forgot to mention that even my name was derived from a Greek god. Aristeo is the hispanized name of Aristaeus. So there are four of them in my life. Anyone here who can claim the same?
PC, let me pick just one example of the above Greek mythology in your personal life to explain.

The fact that you are using a computer software called "Artemis" has nothing to do with "a Greek mythology character" coming into your (spiritual) life.

It has to do with the fact that picking characters from Greek mythology when making up company names, product names, brand names etc. is very popular (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis_%28disambiguation%29).

In fact, you — and anybody else here — should be suprised to not find numerous Greek characters in your life.

[Darth Rotor]

I'm really sorry to have to tell you all this after the effort you have put into this thread. God told me that he does not exist. So this has just been a waste of time.
Did He tell you (or not tell you) in Hebrew, Aramaic, Assyrian, English, Greek, or Latin?

Inquiring minds want to know, and we also want to know: what's a (standard)cubit? :boggled: Do you still have Him on the line?

DR

[Rufo]

PeaceCrusader, I responded to several of your questions in my last post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2356622#post2356622). Since you are now repeating your questions, I would like to know why you are, presumably, not satisfied with my answers.

[vIQleS]

I know that the English language has "countless words of greek (and latin) origin" but how about characters in Greek mythology only "coming into one's life". Artemis, Apollo, Echo. And I forgot to mention that even my name was derived from a Greek god. Aristeo is the hispanized name of Aristaeus. So there are four of them in my life. Anyone here who can claim the same?


Almost anyone if they thought hard enough about it.

I'm sure i remember one of the onboard experts mentioned that one of the symptoms of schizophrenia was drawing unwarranted significance from normal random coincidence. Maybe someone can refresh my memory...

[CapelDodger]

PeaceCrusader, I responded to several of your questions in my last post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2356622#post2356622). Since you are now repeating your questions, I would like to know why you are, presumably, not satisfied with my answers.
I'm just guessing here, but perhaps they were purely rhetorical since he knew - and so, therefore, should everybody - the answers. Which I doubt are anything like yours, so yours can be ignored.

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Rufo and my Fellowmen,

What I meant is that the word 'Allah' is used in Arabic as the word 'God' is in English. That is, Christians and Jews speaking Arabic say they believe in 'Allah', and even people of other religions with no connection to Islam, Judaism or Christianity may say they believe in 'Allah', because it simply means 'God' and can refer to any God, just like the word 'God' can in English. When you say 'Allah', speaking English, I know you refer to the God of Islam, I'm just saying we should be careful with the term.

As for differentiating between false and true Gods without a holy scripture, I suppose you would have to trust your gut feeling or just be consistent and dismiss them all as false, as pointed out by other posters. You can also choose to dismiss those scriptures who appear inconsistant, but since many claim that would include the Holy Bible, I suppose it is not your preferred method.

PeaceCrusader, I responded to several of your questions in my last post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2356622#post2356622). Since you are now repeating your questions, I would like to know why you are, presumably, not satisfied with my answers.
I repeat my question: Are Allah of Islam and the God of the Bible one and the same? Allah may be the Arabic word for God, but is he the same God of the Bible? If you say he is, then why is he not consistent with what is said in the Old Testament and the New Testament. For example, in the Old Testament, God commanded “Thou shalt not kill.” And in the New Testament, Jesus said, “Love your neighbor like you love yourself.” But in the Qu’ran, the followers of Islam are exhorted to kill the unbelievers. Is God being consistent here? Can God not kill the unbelievers if He wants to like what He did to the first-born Egyptians?

I know that God is known by different names. Allah may be the Arabic word for ‘God’ but is he the same Lord God of the Bible? Again, I ask, without any holy scripture, just plain logic, how do you consider a god as god? How can you differentiate the true God from the false gods?
I asked also how do you consider a god as god and how can you differentiate the true God from the false gods. I believe you did not answer my question satisfactorily, Rufo. Do you just “trust your gut feeling or just be consistent and dismiss them all as false”? If you were a Muslim, as I believe you are, all other gods are false except Allah. If you were a Christian, he would just say that Allah is a false god, and so are others, except Jesus Christ or Jehovah or God the Father. You see, there is bias. But let us use logic instead of being partial. Would you believe that to be the true God, He must be omnipotent? Could you call the God of Moses to be omnipotent? If your answer is yes, I agree with you. He is almighty because He was able to kill all the first-born Egyptians at about midnight, in an instant. Can a false god do this? Now, is Allah omnipotent? What did Allah do to show that he is omnipotent? Please use only examples that are in the Qu’ran and exclude those done by God in the Old Testament.

The grace of peace reign in our hearts now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[wahrheit]

I repeat my question: Are Allah of Islam and the God of the Bible one and the same? Allah may be the Arabic word for God, but is he the same God of the Bible? If you say he is, then why is he not consistent with what is said in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Inconsistencies in (and between) holy books? Lo and behold!

[Ladewig]

Dear Rufo and my Fellowmen,


I repeat my question: Are Allah of Islam and the God of the Bible one and the same? Allah may be the Arabic word for God, but is he the same God of the Bible? If you say he is, then why is he not consistent with what is said in the Old Testament and the New Testament. For example, in the Old Testament, God commanded “Thou shalt not kill.” And in the New Testament, Jesus said, “Love your neighbor like you love yourself.” But in the Qu’ran, the followers of Islam are exhorted to kill the unbelievers. Is God being consistent here? Can God not kill the unbelievers if He wants to like what He did to the first-born Egyptians?


Are you ***** serious? Peace Crusader, have you even read the Old Testament? Specifically:

I Samuel 5:2-3
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Joshua 7:10-13 God tells Joshua to kill the accused among the tribe.
And the LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face?
Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff.
Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.

There are several other instances of God telling one or more of His followers to kill somebody. Your question is not evidence that Allah is not the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. I do hope that you'll go to all the message boards you've already visited and post a message explaining that in this particular instance you were mistaken in your logic.

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Wahrheit and Fellow Forumers,

Inconsistencies in (and between) holy books? Lo and behold!

Yes, that is an example of inconsistency in the part of God in the Holy Bible and in the Qu'ran. That is why I raised the question whether the Qu'ran is really from the true God or not. Why is it that the Qu'ran was revealed by an angel named Gabriel to Muhammad and not directly by God? Especially for a very important revelation.

The Muslims believe in angels. They know that there are good and evil angels who are spirits. Have they ever pondered if that angel is really the angel Gabriel or that angel may be a Jinn who posed to be Gabriel?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Ladewig and Fellow Forumers,

Are you ***** serious? Peace Crusader, have you even read the Old Testament? Specifically:

I Samuel 5:2-3

Joshua 7:10-13 God tells Joshua to kill the accused among the tribe.

There are several other instances of God telling one or more of His followers to kill somebody. Your question is not evidence that Allah is not the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. I do hope that you'll go to all the message boards you've already visited and post a message explaining that in this particular instance you were mistaken in your logic.

It is true that in the Old Testament, God told "one or more of His followers to kill somebody." The Israelites from Egypt were going to the promised land populated by other people. So in order to clear the land of its inhabitants, they have to eliminate them by killing them. God wanted to make that land to be homogeneously occupied by His chosen people. To learn how to fight and defend themselves and prepare for the occupation of the promised land, they had war with the Amalekites at Rephidim (Exodus 17:8-15).

God also told, like Moses and Joshua, to kill offenders among the tribe. I believe God did not like these trouble-makers and offenders of His commandments and they should be punished (Numbers 16:25-35).

After the Israelites had occupied the promised land, about a thousand years later, Jesus came. Did Jesus teach violence? No, He did not. In Matthew 26:52 and John 18:11 (KJV), Jesus said to Peter who just cut off the right ear of the high priest's servant Malchus: "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Jesus even told us to love our enemies.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear CapelDodger and Fellow Forumers,

That's easy for you to say, but what about the people that need the eggs? This guy discovered the number of Jesus back in 1994, he must have followers by now. That's gotta be a serious number, after all. 888 - the Chinese were right all along! It prompts one to reappraise one's whole world-view.

I think the Chinese number is 8888 and not exactly 888. The exact number of Jesus is 888 and the beast or the anti-Christ in Revelation 13:18 is 666. Three digits each and the same digit repeated three times.

Any Chinese here who can clear us up of the lucky number? Is it 8 or 88 or 888 or 8888?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Wahrheit and Fellow Forumers,

PC, let me pick just one example of the above Greek mythology in your personal life to explain.

The fact that you are using a computer software called "Artemis" has nothing to do with "a Greek mythology character" coming into your (spiritual) life.

It has to do with the fact that picking characters from Greek mythology when making up company names, product names, brand names etc. is very popular (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis_%28disambiguation%29).

In fact, you — and anybody else here — should be suprised to not find numerous Greek characters in your life.

How about the two models of cars we have--Apollo and Echo--which are from Greek mythology? Are there any other Greek mythological characters among car models beside these two? One forumer mentioned Saturn. Other car models are Civic, Prelude, Accord, Golf, Polo, Sonata, Verada, Magna, Lancer, Micro, Getz, Tarago, Camry, Yaris, Corolla, Excel, Elantra, Pulsar, Commodore, Statesman, Barina, Caprice, Swift, Corvette, Mustang, Falcon, Festiva, Cadillac, etc.

Coincidences?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[wombatwal]

I'm really sorry to have to tell you all this after the effort you have put into this thread. God told me that he does not exist. So this has just been a waste of time.

Ahh, thank God, finally the truth, now we can go to bed knowing in the morning we will wake up knowing that













we are all alone:eek:

[This Guy]

Dear Wahrheit and Fellow Forumers,



How about the two models of cars we have--Apollo and Echo--which are from Greek mythology? Are there any other Greek mythological characters among car models beside these two? One forumer mentioned Saturn. Other car models are Civic, Prelude, Accord, Golf, Polo, Sonata, Verada, Magna, Lancer, Micro, Getz, Tarago, Camry, Yaris, Corolla, Excel, Elantra, Pulsar, Commodore, Statesman, Barina, Caprice, Swift, Corvette, Mustang, Falcon, Festiva, Cadillac, etc.

Coincidences?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

Your trying to be funny aren't you :)




Please say your trying to be funny! :boggled:

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear This Guy and Fellow Forumers,

How about the two models of cars we have--Apollo and Echo--which are from Greek mythology? Are there any other Greek mythological characters among car models beside these two? One forumer mentioned Saturn. Other car models are Civic, Prelude, Accord, Golf, Polo, Sonata, Verada, Magna, Lancer, Micro, Getz, Tarago, Camry, Yaris, Corolla, Excel, Elantra, Pulsar, Commodore, Statesman, Barina, Caprice, Swift, Corvette, Mustang, Falcon, Festiva, Cadillac, etc.

Coincidences?

Your trying to be funny aren't you :)

Please say your trying to be funny! :boggled:

No, I am serious. Do you know of any other Greek mythological characters among car models? Of all the car models here in Australia, God must have provided me with these two cars with model names from Greek mythology.

I have mentioned before that Greek mythological characters have come to my life, starting with my name, Aristeo, which is the Spanish equivalent of the Greek god Aristaeus. Then Artemis, the computer programming software that I used in the 1980s and early 1990s. Then the cars Apollo and Echo. Actually, I did not know that Echo was a Greek mythological character until a few days ago. The car Echo was bought six months ago in August 2006.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[wahrheit]

No, I am serious. Do you know of any other Greek mythological characters among car models? Of all the car models here in Australia, God must have provided me with these two cars with model names from Greek mythology.

I have mentioned before that Greek mythological characters have come to my life, starting with my name, Aristeo, which is the Spanish equivalent of the Greek god Aristaeus. Then Artemis, the computer programming software that I used in the 1980s and early 1990s. Then the cars Apollo and Echo. Actually, I did not know that Echo was a Greek mythological character until a few days ago. The car Echo was bought six months ago in August 2006.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

Obviously, you have read my previous posts, you quoted and replied to them. Then why do you repeat what you have already said before, completely ignoring the answers already given?

1. It was not god who provided you with the two cars. A car dealer did.

2. The two cars were named after Greek mythology because someone in marketing, and not in heaven, thought they will sell with such a name.

3. Don't buy a BMW or Mercedes in the future.

[CapelDodger]

Dear CapelDodger and Fellow Forumers,



I think the Chinese number is 8888 and not exactly 888. The exact number of Jesus is 888 ...
If they've got the message to three significant digits they've done better than Christendom, with far less acrimony.

Any Chinese here who can clear us up of the lucky number? Is it 8 or 88 or 888 or 8888?
In some parts of China 8 is regarded as a lucky digit, four eights is particularly lucky. That superstition, like the Kabbalah crapola, makes a big thing of the decimal system, but seriously mystical numbers are base-thirteen, as any fule kno.

[Beerina]

The Muslims believe in angels. They know that there are good and evil angels who are spirits. Have they ever pondered if that angel is really the angel Gabriel or that angel may be a Jinn who posed to be Gabriel?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

How do you know Matthew, Luke, Mark, and John weren't deceived by an evil Djinn? Maybe they didn't actually see these things, but merely wrote them down according to what they were told.

[PeaceCrusader]

My Dear Fellowmen,

It is quite difficult to discuss religious matters with a Muslim for he will always say that the Qu'ran says so and so. He believes that it is the last and final revelation from God so it must be correct.

But let us determine first of all whether the Qu'ran is from the true God or not. The Qu'ran was revealed to Muhammad allegedly by an angel named Gabriel. How can we know that it was the true angel Gabriel and not just an impostor, an evil angel, a Jinn, posing as the angel Gabriel? Please give proofs that he was really angel Gabriel and from God.

The angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and announced that she would conceive and give birth to a son to be named Jesus. How can we know that it was the true angel Gabriel and not just an impostor, an evil angel, a Jinn, posing as the angel Gabriel? Please give proofs that he was really angel Gabriel and from God.

The peace of the true God reign in our hearts now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
Motto: pro aris et focis
http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."

[wahrheit]

My Dear Fellowmen,

It is quite difficult to discuss religious matters with a Christian for he will always say that the Bible says so and so. He believes that it is the last and final revelation from God so it must be correct.

[PeaceCrusader]

My Dear Fellowmen,

I repeat my earlier inquiry:

Let us determine first of all whether the Qu'ran is from the true God or not. The Qu'ran was revealed to Muhammad allegedly by an angel named Gabriel. How can we know that it was the true angel Gabriel and not just an impostor, an evil angel, a Jinn, posing as the angel Gabriel? Please give proofs that he was really angel Gabriel and from God.

The angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and announced that she would conceive and give birth to a son to be named Jesus. How can we know that it was the true angel Gabriel and not just an impostor, an evil angel, a Jinn, posing as the angel Gabriel? Please give proofs that he was really angel Gabriel and from God.

The peace of the true God reign in our hearts now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
Motto: pro aris et focis
http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."

[Darat]

I am as certain that the Qu'ran is from the true God as I am certain the Bible (whichever version you want to use) is from the true God.

[DangerousBeliefs]

My Dear Fellowmen,

I repeat my earlier inquiry:

Let us determine first of all whether the Qu'ran is from the true God or not. The Qu'ran was revealed to Muhammad allegedly by an angel named Gabriel. How can we know that it was the true angel Gabriel and not just an impostor, an evil angel, a Jinn, posing as the angel Gabriel? Please give proofs that he was really angel Gabriel and from God.

The angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and announced that she would conceive and give birth to a son to be named Jesus. How can we know that it was the true angel Gabriel and not just an impostor, an evil angel, a Jinn, posing as the angel Gabriel? Please give proofs that he was really angel Gabriel and from God.

The peace of the true God reign in our hearts now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
Motto: pro aris et focis
http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."


Could you start with evidence that angels are real? Or Jinn?

I was also very curious to know how you were going to prove the date Jesus was born from your challenge thread given that we have no idea when Jesus lived... just +/- X years. Now if your spirit could tell us the location of a cave that contained the true testament of Jesus... that would be something... of course, that's provided the cave wasn't in the US and the testament was translated from some stones in a hat. :rolleyes:

[Ladewig]

My Dear Fellowmen,

I repeat my earlier inquiry:

Let us determine first of all whether the Qu'ran is from the true God or not. The Qu'ran was revealed to Muhammad allegedly by an angel named Gabriel. How can we know that it was the true angel Gabriel and not just an impostor, an evil angel, a Jinn, posing as the angel Gabriel? Please give proofs that he was really angel Gabriel and from God.

The angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and announced that she would conceive and give birth to a son to be named Jesus. How can we know that it was the true angel Gabriel and not just an impostor, an evil angel, a Jinn, posing as the angel Gabriel? Please give proofs that he was really angel Gabriel and from God.



You've convinced me. Not only is Islam based on a flase belief, but Christianity is, too. I agree that we have no way of knowing who appeared to Mary and thus it is reasonable to conclude that it was an evil spirit who visited her. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

My Dear Fellowmen,

It is quite difficult to discuss religious matters with a Muslim for he will always say that the Qu'ran says so and so. He believes that it is the last and final revelation from God so it must be correct.

But let us determine first of all whether the Qu'ran is from the true God or not. The Qu'ran was revealed to Muhammad allegedly by an angel named Gabriel. How can we know that it was the true angel Gabriel and not just an impostor, an evil angel, a Jinn, posing as the angel Gabriel? Please give proofs that he was really angel Gabriel and from God.

The angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and announced that she would conceive and give birth to a son to be named Jesus. How can we know that it was the true angel Gabriel and not just an impostor, an evil angel, a Jinn, posing as the angel Gabriel? Please give proofs that he was really angel Gabriel and from God.

The peace of the true God reign in our hearts now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
Motto: pro aris et focis

"The Internet is mightier than the sword."


What are you? A Muslim playing the Taqqiya game? Because you're really talking like one.

I don't believe the Quran was from either a Deity OR an "angel". Fact is, no one but Muhammad ever SAW Gabriel, even when he was standing among/right in front of them (ie. Aisha and Muhammad's companions).

in Muhammad's time, many many people accused Muhammad of being insane, possessed, bewitched etc... I thiink they were right.

Add to this, the Quran was "revealed" over 23 years of Muhammad's lifetime, and EVERY SINGLE REVELATION was "conveniently" suited to whatever Muhammad wanted at that particular time (ie. Muhammad wanted more wives, so a "revealtion" was sent down allowing this, Muhammad had enough followers to start attacking innocent people, so the "revelation" was sent down saying they could attack and pillage, etc...)

All very convenient for Muhammad eh?

The Quran says its not corrupt so Muslims believe it? Yeah, that's a good one eh? Thats like finding a previously unknown Van Gogh, and under his signature he wrote "this is not a forgery".

Anyone who uses any kind of rationale or logic would find it immediately suspect.


PeaceCrusader, please PM me and we can debate this further, or I can give you a forum where you can find the truth (don't wanna spam my first post hehe).


My apologies to everyone for such a weird first post! I am so glad to be here :)

-JP

[CapelDodger]

Add to this, the Quran was "revealed" over 23 years of Muhammad's lifetime, and EVERY SINGLE REVELATION was "conveniently" suited to whatever Muhammad wanted at that particular time (ie. Muhammad wanted more wives, so a "revealtion" was sent down allowing this, Muhammad had enough followers to start attacking innocent people, so the "revelation" was sent down saying they could attack and pillage, etc...)

All very convenient for Muhammad eh?

The Koran is certainly not divinely inspired, but no more is it this bigoted parody. Nowhere does it justify attacking innocent people. Like all religions it first invents something they can be called guilty of. Then it justifies attacking the guilty - before they attack, which they most certainly will, oh yes. Little of this stems from the holy books, far more from the self-serving interpretations and pure inventions of organised religion.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

The Koran is certainly not divinely inspired, but no more is it this bigoted parody. Nowhere does it justify attacking innocent people. Like all religions it first invents something they can be called guilty of. Then it justifies attacking the guilty - before they attack, which they most certainly will, oh yes. Little of this stems from the holy books, far more from the self-serving interpretations and pure inventions of organised religion.

Hi CapelDodger :) nice to meet you. Okay I guess your definition is right. The Religion makes them "guilty" and then justifies attacking them. But their only crime? Not believing in Muhammad and his new (recycled paganism) religion.

So I guess in the eyes of Islam they are "guilty" but since Islam claims to be from the same Deity of Christians/Jews, its really a 180 from the NT, don't you think? Believe or die? (or enslaved).

-JP

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear DangerousBeliefs and my Fellowmen,

Could you start with evidence that angels are real? Or Jinn?

I was also very curious to know how you were going to prove the date Jesus was born from your challenge thread given that we have no idea when Jesus lived... just +/- X years. Now if your spirit could tell us the location of a cave that contained the true testament of Jesus... that would be something... of course, that's provided the cave wasn't in the US and the testament was translated from some stones in a hat.

Angels are spirit beings. There are good angels and evil angels. Good angels are angels of God. Evil angels are angels of the Devil, also known as Satan and Lucifer.

Normally, we don't see them for they are invisible to the naked eye. But they may materialize themselves and be seen by humans, such as the two angels who appeared in the tomb of Jesus (John 20:12) or the "two men ... in white apparel" (Acts 1:10) when Jesus ascended to Heaven.

God sends His angels to deliver His message, and do not act in their own name. God sent Gabriel to Mary (Luke 1:26-38) to announce to her that she will give birth to a son to be named Jesus. This angel is an angel from God. Do you know why He is from the true God?

How about the angel who appeared to Muhammad? Was he the true angel Gabriel or an impostor, one who poses to be the angel Gabriel when he is actually not? Was that angel a Jinn (an evil angel) or a good angel? Please provide proof that he is the true angel Gabriel.

The spirit we talk to revealed to us that Jesus was born on May 23. I found the date to be correct, and the year is 33 BC. You may read it in my website. Just add the file name birthmay23.htm to the home page. I just cannot put to whole link address to my postings.

Jesus did not have any testament, so nothing that can be found in any cave. It was His disciples and Paul who wrote about Him but He did not write about His messages.

The grace of peace of the true God reign in our hearts now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
Motto: pro aris et focis
“The Internet is mightier than the sword.”

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Jigsaw_Psyche and Fellow Forumers,

What are you? A Muslim playing the Taqqiya game? Because you're really talking like one.
I don't believe the Quran was from either a Deity OR an "angel". Fact is, no one but Muhammad ever SAW Gabriel, even when he was standing among/right in front of them (ie. Aisha and Muhammad's companions).
in Muhammad's time, many many people accused Muhammad of being insane, possessed, bewitched etc... I thiink they were right.
Add to this, the Quran was "revealed" over 23 years of Muhammad's lifetime, and EVERY SINGLE REVELATION was "conveniently" suited to whatever Muhammad wanted at that particular time (ie. Muhammad wanted more wives, so a "revealtion" was sent down allowing this, Muhammad had enough followers to start attacking innocent people, so the "revelation" was sent down saying they could attack and pillage, etc...)
All very convenient for Muhammad eh?

Firstly, I welcome you to the Forum.

Do you think I am a Muslim? I am a non-denominational Christian, a plain follower of Jesus Christ. I am just puzzled at how the Qu’ran was delivered by an angel named Gabriel to Muhammad. I am questioning whether that angel is the true angel Gabriel or an impostor, a Jinn, an evil angel.

What is “Taqqiya”, BTW?

The Quran says its not corrupt so Muslims believe it? Yeah, that's a good one eh? Thats like finding a previously unknown Van Gogh, and under his signature he wrote "this is not a forgery".
Anyone who uses any kind of rationale or logic would find it immediately suspect.

Granting that the Qu’ran has not changed since it was revealed to Muhammad over 1400 years, still, my mind is asking if that angel Gabriel is the true angel Gabriel. How about if he was not really from the true God but just an impostor? That is why I am asking for proofs that he really is the genuine Gabriel.

PeaceCrusader, please PM me and we can debate this further, or I can give you a forum where you can find the truth (don't wanna spam my first post hehe.)

My apologies to everyone for such a weird first post! I am so glad to be here

-JP

Thanks, Jigsaw_Psyche, for your invitation to debate the question between us. But I prefer that we discuss it openly here in the forum. I don’t want to go into debate. Let us just discuss the matter and express our views and opinion.

What is the forum that you say “where you can find the truth”? What does “PM” mean?

The grace of peace reign in our hearts now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
Motto: pro aris et focis
“The Internet is mightier than the sword.”

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Ladewig and Fellow Forumers,

You've convinced me. Not only is Islam based on a flase belief, but Christianity is, too. I agree that we have no way of knowing who appeared to Mary and thus it is reasonable to conclude that it was an evil spirit who visited her. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

I do not know if the angel Gabriel who appeared to Muhammad and delivered the Qu'ran to him is the true angel Gabriel and from the true God. We have to ask the Muslims to explain this. They know their religion better. We may just ask questions and hopefully knowledgeable Muslims may elucidate us and answer our questions.

Would you believe that the angel who announced to Mary that she would conceive and give birth to a son to be named Jesus is the true angel Gabriel and from the true God? Not because I am a plain follower of Jesus Christ that I believe but because logic tells me that it is true. Do you know why? Let us use plain logic.

The grace of peace from the true God reign in our hearts now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
Motto: pro aris et focis
"The Internet is mightier that the sword."

[DangerousBeliefs]

Please provide proof that he is the true angel Gabriel.

A true angel? There is absolutely no evidence that angels DO exist. They are as real as the easter bunny or santa claus.

I found the date to be correct, and the year is 33 BC.

Obviously, you did not base this on evidence, because there is no evidence dating from the lifetime of Jesus. What I see is a -lot- of guesswork.

http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/birthmay23.htm

Well, I take that back. We may have evidence of Jesus' tomb. I'll be interested to watch that special on Discovery this Sunday as it may completely invalidate Christianity as we know it.

http://dsc.discovery.com/

I believe but because logic tells me that it is true. Do you know why? Let us use plain logic.

I have yet to see you use any logic.

[Ladewig]

Not because I am a plain follower of Jesus Christ that I believe but because logic tells me that it is true. Do you know why? Let us use plain logic.

Yes. Let us use plain logic. I have a hard time believing either story. I really don't see how using plain logic leads people to believe that Christianity is true and Islam is false.

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

Dear Jigsaw_Psyche and Fellow Forumers,



Firstly, I welcome you to the Forum.

Thank you very much! :)



Do you think I am a Muslim? I am a non-denominational Christian, a plain follower of Jesus Christ.

Ah no worries! My apologies for the assumption there. I debate Islam and the Quran/ahadith with muslims every day, and your post came off like it came from a Muslim. My sincere apologies to you; I misread your posts in this thread :)


I am just puzzled at how the Qu’ran was delivered by an angel named Gabriel to Muhammad. I am questioning whether that angel is the true angel Gabriel or an impostor, a Jinn, an evil angel.

exactly! And you know, no one ever saw this "angel" even when he was standing right in front of them! ie. One of Muhammad's wives, Aisha, said "You see what I do not" when Gabriel was supposedly standing right in front of her!

Add to this the no evidence given at all in support of the Quran or Islam, and the whole thing becomes very suspicious indeed!


What is “Taqqiya”, BTW?

Al-Taqqiya means "The Legal Lie". Its an Islamic Doctrine (as found in the Quran). Muslims may tell any lie they want in order to further their Cause (ie. Islam). This is why I do not judge Islam based on what Muslims's tell me, but on what their Quran and Hadith (narrations of Muhammad) tell us Islam is.



Granting that the Qu’ran has not changed since it was revealed to Muhammad over 1400 years, still, my mind is asking if that angel Gabriel is the true angel Gabriel. How about if he was not really from the true God but just an impostor? That is why I am asking for proofs that he really is the genuine Gabriel.

They don't give any. I don't agree that the Quran is unchanged, but that's for anothe discussion :D

This "angel" said he was Gabriel and that's all the evidence that is given.



Thanks, Jigsaw_Psyche, for your invitation to debate the question between us. But I prefer that we discuss it openly here in the forum. I don’t want to go into debate. Let us just discuss the matter and express our views and opinion.

No worries!


What is the forum that you say “where you can find the truth”? What does “PM” mean?

PM - Private Message. I was referring to Faith Freedom International. You can find Muslims, ex-Muslims and non-muslims there who are very knowledgeable and can answer your questions.

Actually we were talking recently about Gabriel; looking at the evidences we have, and thinking maybe Gabriel was initially a Man that Muhammad took in his confidence and it developed over time into "The Angel Gabriel".



The grace of peace reign in our hearts now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
Motto: pro aris et focis
“The Internet is mightier than the sword.”


Again, my apologies for my misread of your posts :)

-JP

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Ladewig and Fellow Forumers,

Yes. Let us use plain logic. I have a hard time believing either story. I really don't see how using plain logic leads people to believe that Christianity is true and Islam is false.

I do not say that “Christianity is true and Islam is false.” As a Christian, I will try to to prove that the angel who announced to Mary that she would conceive and give birth to a son to be named Jesus is the true angel Gabriel using plain logic. This angel is from God.

I am not a Muslim so I am not in a position to prove that the angel who talked to Muhammad and gave the Qur'an is the true angel Gabriel and is from God. I can just ask. Knowledgeable and learned Muslims may explain and give proofs. Without such proofs, I will remain a doubter that the Qur’an is from the true God and that angel is not the true angel Gabriel.

In my next post, I will give my proofs using plain logic to show that the angel is really Gabriel and is from God.

The grace of peace of the true God be with us now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[wahrheit]

In my next post, I will give my proofs using plain logic to show that the angel is really Gabriel and is from God.

Looking forward to it. :popcorn1

[Ladewig]

I do not say that “Christianity is true and Islam is false.”


Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that there is no logical evidence that the founder of Islam received any divine revelation at all, in fact you go even further and claim that logic dictates that we must consider the possibility that he was mislead by an evil spirit.

So how exactly is that different from claiming Islam is false?

ETA: I am neither a Muslim nor a Christian. I find this thread interesting because you believe that logic will show one of these religions to be more accurate than the other. I find that claim bizarrely fascinating.

[DangerousBeliefs]

In my next post, I will give my proofs using plain logic to show that the angel is really Gabriel and is from God.

Let me guess... you're going to:

1) Assume all references you use from the Bible are 100% true and accurate.

And then go from there.

[Darth Rotor]

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that there is no logical evidence that the founder of Islam received any divine revelation at all, in fact you go even further and claim that logic dictates that we must consider the possibility that he was mislead by an evil spirit.

So how exactly is that different from claiming Islam is false?

I think the line goes like this:

If Mohammed was unaware of the deceit, and sincerely believed the revelation was true, then his words were true from their source, Mohammed. Al Quran is the readings, which I understand to be "the readings of the Prophet's words." (Jigsaw, if I have that mixed up, please advise.) So, did the Prophet lie? Not in that secnario.

Another way to look at the question you raise:

If one could show (which I don't think one can) that Mohammed conversed with an evil spirit/deceiver, you'd be able to prove that he was a False Prophet (even if due to his mistake, as noted above.) That would make Islam based wholly on deceit, and perhaps that is what you mean by "false."

I too am very interested in seeing the "proofs" that have been promised.

DR

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

I think the line goes like this:

If Mohammed was unaware of the deceit, and sincerely believed the revelation was true, then his words were true from their source, Mohammed. Al Quran is the readings, which I understand to be "the readings of the Prophet's words." (Jigsaw, if I have that mixed up, please advise.) So, did the Prophet lie? Not in that secnario.

Another way to look at the question you raise:

If one could show (which I don't think one can) that Mohammed conversed with an evil spirit/deceiver, you'd be able to prove that he was a False Prophet (even if due to his mistake, as noted above.) That would make Islam based wholly on deceit, and perhaps that is what you mean by "false."

I too am very interested in seeing the "proofs" that have been promised.

DR


Hello Darth :)

The Quran is allegedly the EXACT and literal word of Allah (the arabic version only) and was passed on either from Allah to Gabriel to Muhammad, or from Allah to a "Clanging bell sound" in Muhammad's head (while he was having a seizure) to Muhammad.

The Quran is supposedly only passed on from Allah through Muhammad.

Muslims also have Hadith (plural: ahadith or hadiths) which are the sayings/deeds of Muhammad. These are considered "inspired' but acknowledged to be the words/deeds of Muhammad (and not Allah).


I can't show you the difference right now (sorry) cause I can't post a URl to show you, but if you're interested, google "Compendium of Muslim texts" to get to the USC site. You can read the Quran/major ahadith collections online.






~~~

I am also very interested to see the information Peace is going to present. Muhammad claimed that Islam was the "return" to what Judaism/Christianity was supposed to be (before Jews/Christians corrupted the texts), and acknowledges that Muhammad was prophesied in the "previous scriptures". He fails the criteria for a Biblical prophet, so I await your reply along with everyone else, PeaceCrusader

:)


-JP

[Ossai]

Jigsaw_Psyche
and acknowledges that Muhammad was prophesied in the "previous scriptures". He fails the criteria for a Biblical prophet, so I await your reply along with everyone else, PeaceCrusaderNo big deal there. Most biblical prophets (or at least all the ones I can think of off hand) failed the criteria for biblical prophets.

Ossai

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Ladewig and Fellow Forumers,

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that there is no logical evidence that the founder of Islam received any divine revelation at all, in fact you go even further and claim that logic dictates that we must consider the possibility that he was mislead by an evil spirit.

So how exactly is that different from claiming Islam is false?

ETA: I am neither a Muslim nor a Christian. I find this thread interesting because you believe that logic will show one of these religions to be more accurate than the other. I find that claim bizarrely fascinating.

I accept that Muhammad, the founder of Islam, received revelations from an angel named Gabriel and not directly from God. My question is why not directly from God for such very important revelations?

My other questions are: Is that angel the true angel Gabriel of the true God? How about if he is just an impostor, a Jinn, an evil spirit? Is Allah the true God?

I am raising these questions to Muslims because they know their religion better. So let us hear from knowledgeable and learned Muslims their explanation of the questions at hand.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[wahrheit]

In my next post, I will give my proofs using plain logic to show that the angel is really Gabriel and is from God.

Bolding mine.

Your next post:

I accept that Muhammad, the founder of Islam, received revelations from an angel named Gabriel and not directly from God. My question is why not directly from God for such very important revelations?

* My other questions are: Is that angel the true angel Gabriel of the true God? How about if he is just an impostor, a Jinn, an evil spirit? Is Allah the true God?

I am raising these questions to Muslims because they know their religion better. So let us hear from knowledgeable and learned Muslims their explanation of the questions at hand.

Let alone that your record seems a little scratched (you have posted * before) — I am still anxious to see your "proofs" and plain logic.

[PeaceCrusader]

My Dear Fellowmen,

Thank you for your wait.

I have been composing the explanation. I hope that even with the not too detailed explanation below, you will find that the angel Gabriel is an angel of the true God.

I will present here using plain logic that the angel who announced to Mary that she would conceive and give birth to a son to be named Jesus is the true angel Gabriel and is from the true God.

Luke 1:267-27 states: "And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary."

What is the name of the angel? Gabriel. It says that it was God who sent him. Is that God the true God?

We know that the true God is omnipotent, almighty, limitless in power, don’t we? He created man (Genesis 1:27) and “formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul” (Genesis 2:7). Luke 1:37 states: “For with God nothing shall be impossible.”

What are the things that angel Gabriel told Mary? Firstly, she would conceive in her womb a son who shall be named Jesus (Luke 1:31). Secondly, Jesus “shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.” (Luke 1:32-33)

Since Mary was a virgin, she said, “How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?” The angel said that “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

So with God’s power, He was able to make Mary conceive even though she was a virgin and she gave birth to a son (as the angel said) named Jesus. Impossible? To us human beings, such conception by a virgin may be an impossibility but not to God. Can the angel make Mary conceive? Cannot be because only God can create a human being. Angels cannot. The role of angels is to act as agent or deliverer or messenger of God.

Is Jesus great? Yes, of course. How many hundreds of millions of people believe in Jesus worldwide? Is He called the Son of the Highest or Son of God? Yes, He is. Because His father is God, He is called the Son of God. And since His mother Mary is a human being, He is called the Son of Man.

Did the Lord God give to Jesus the throne of his father David? Since Joseph, His human father, is from the House of David, He inherits the throne of King David. Does He reign over the house of Jacob? The first converts to Christianity were the Israelites or Jews who descended from the house of Jacob or Israel. Saint Paul was instrumental in converting the Jews to believe in Jesus who were dispersed in different parts of the Roman empire. Will the kingdom of Jesus end? Since Jesus is God, those who will be in His kingdom will live forever. It shall not end.

Because the angel would like to assure her that He was telling the truth, the angel said, “And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.” (Luke 1:36)

Again, is it impossible to God to make someone in her old age and called barren to give birth? It must be the true God to make it happen. It is the same with Sarah, the wife of Abraham. God made her conceive and give birth to Isaac when she was 91 years old and Abraham, 100.

In order to verify what the angel said, Mary hurriedly went to the hill country in Judah (Luke 1:39) (this is Hebron, some 30 km south of Jerusalem or 130 km from their place in Nazareth in Galilee.) That was about three to four days walk away. And true enough, she found her cousin Elisabeth who was six months pregnant.

Zechariah, the husband of Elisabeth, was serving his temple duties when an angel announced to him that his wife will bear a son who shall be named John (Luke 1:13). Zechariah said to the angel (Luke 1:18): “Whereby shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.”

And the angel answered: “I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to show thee these glad tidings. And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.”

So, here is angel Gabriel again bringing the good news to Zechariah. But because of his unbelief, he was made dumb. Is that angel Gabriel from the true God? Yes, he is. The true God made his old, barren wife to conceive. And the true God made him dumb because of his unbelief.

Mary gave birth to a son who was named Jesus, and Elisabeth to John who later became as John the Baptist.

If you have further queries, please raise them. I will be happy to answer them to the best that I could.

The grace of peace of the true God be with us now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[wahrheit]

PeaceCrusader, let me be frank. I am very disappointed with your proof and pure logic.

Luke 1:267-27 states: *snip*

I almost stopped reading your post here. Are you going to prove a bible story with the bible as the source?!?

We know that the true God is omnipotent, almighty, limitless in power, don’t we?

I, for one, don't.

To make a long story short: If you consider this pure logic, we must have a very different concept of "pure logic".

ETA: Yes, I read your entire post. I just don't feel like going more into detail with it, because I personally do not know where this should be going by any means. :eusa_snooty:

[Jigsaw_Psyche]

PeaceCrusader, let me be frank. I am very disappointed with your proof and pure logic.



I almost stopped reading your post here. Are you going to prove a bible story with the bible as the source?!?



I, for one, don't.

To make a long story short: If you consider this pure logic, we must have a very different concept of "pure logic".

ETA: Yes, I read your entire post. I just don't feel like going more into detail with it, because I personally do not know where this should be going by any means. :eusa_snooty:



Ah! Exactly what I was thinking!

PeaceCrusader
is there going to be more parts to your explanation? I do not understand how this proves any of the following:

(a) that Gabriel or God exist
(b) That the Bible's accounts are accurate
(c) How any of this relates to the Quran and the Angel Jibriel passing said Quran onto Muhammad.

Thanks

-JP

[Beleth]

Here's another explanation.

Mary and Joseph happened to be in the right place, and happened to have a son, at the right time. They raised their first son, perhaps conceived out of wedlock the mundane way, with a deeply religious background. Their first son gathered around him a group of really close friends, but he also ticked off a lot of people in power, both in the religious world and the political world. He finally pushed too many powerful people too far and was punished for it.

His friends told this story until one day they told this story to someone who realized he could make a lot of money off of it by embellishing it a bit. He had never actually met Mary and Joseph's first son, but came up with a halfway-convincing tale of meeting his ghost. He then wandered around the area writing letters to folks that he thought would give him money.

Forty years after the punishment, Mary and Joseph's first son's friends put what they could remember about him, including a lot more embellishments, down on paper. They even included some parts that they weren't around to witness, but which sounded good on paper, like the circumstances around his birth. They made extra special care to toss in a lot of stories about how he made prophecies written in their holy book of the time come true.

Over the next few years many people realized that there was a lot of money to be made from this story. People still realize that there is a lot of money to be made by telling this story today. It doesn't matter whether it's true or not; what matters is whether it puts food on the table. And it does. It puts food on the table very well.

Now, how is that explanation any less logical than the one that assumes the story is actually true?

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Jigsaw_Psyche and Fellow Forumers,

Ah! Exactly what I was thinking!

PeaceCrusader
is there going to be more parts to your explanation? I do not understand how this proves any of the following:

(a) that Gabriel or God exist
(b) That the Bible's accounts are accurate
(c) How any of this relates to the Quran and the Angel Jibriel passing said Quran onto Muhammad.

Thanks

-JP

What do you think of a god assuming that he exists? Don't you think that if he is the true God, nothing is impossible to Him? Don't you think that He can make a virgin conceive and give birth? Don't you think that He can make an old, barren woman conceive and give birth? Aren't these proofs that logically show the almightiness of the true God? Don't you think that He can make a person dumb and unable to speak? Just remember that only the true God can create a human being because He is the only one who can give the breath of life.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[Ossai]

PeaceCrusader
Luke 1:267-27 states: "And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary."

What is the name of the angel? Gabriel. It says that it was God who sent him. Is that God the true God? Wait, hold up there. The bible is a lousy source of information. It is not a single document, there are multiple authors (quiet a few of which don’t agree with each other). There are numerous inaccuracies and contradictions. It is mythology.

We know that the true God is omnipotent, almighty, limitless in power, don’t we? No. In fact we don’t even know if a god exists much less one that would be identifiable as god to one of the many varied Christian sects.

He created man (Genesis 1:27) and “formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul” (Genesis 2:7). Luke 1:37 states: “For with God nothing shall be impossible.”
You just claimed god was omnipotent, therefore, if god exists, people do not have freewill and the world is exactly the way god wants it.

Secondly, Jesus “shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.” (Luke 1:32-33) Even angels make lousy prophets.

To us human beings, such conception by a virgin may be an impossibility but not to God. Not really. Ever hear of artificial insemination. It’s possible to perform the procedure while the woman’s hymen remains intact.

Is Jesus great? Yes, of course. How many hundreds of millions of people believe in Jesus worldwide? Fallacious, appear to popularity.

Is He called the Son of the Highest or Son of God? Yes, He is. Because His father is God, He is called the Son of God. And since His mother Mary is a human being, He is called the Son of Man. This is supposed to illustrate what?

Did the Lord God give to Jesus the throne of his father David? Since Joseph, His human father, is from the House of David, He inherits the throne of King David. No, actually Joseph’s line back to David was broken by YHWH. Joseph’s line cannot claim Davidic descent. Reference Chronicles 3 and Ezra 3.

Does He reign over the house of Jacob? No, according to the bible Jesus never head a title or an exalted station.
The first converts to Christianity were the Israelites or Jews who descended from the house of Jacob or Israel. You’re deliberately misusing ‘reign’.

Saint Paul was instrumental in converting the Jews to believe in Jesus who were dispersed in different parts of the Roman empire. Will the kingdom of Jesus end? Since Jesus is God, those who will be in His kingdom will live forever. It shall not end. I’m assuming this is just a bit of hyperbole. Paul targeted non-Jews as potential converts. Paul of Tarsus’s sect was just one of many at the time. He turned his sect into a Hellenized Christ cult.

Again, is it impossible to God to make someone in her old age and called barren to give birth? It must be the true God to make it happen. It is the same with Sarah, the wife of Abraham. God made her conceive and give birth to Isaac when she was 91 years old and Abraham, 100. Bible, not a valid source. At best it is a starting place.

Ossai

[Ossai]

I'm actually waiting on a responce.

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Ossai and Fellow Forumers,

PeaceCrusader
Wait, hold up there. The bible is a lousy source of information. It is not a single document, there are multiple authors (quiet a few of which don’t agree with each other). There are numerous inaccuracies and contradictions. It is mythology.

Why do you call the Bible as "a lousy source of information." Did you know that the dating of historical events are based on the "supposed" date of birth of Jesus Christ in 1 BC?

True, the Bible "is not a single document, there are multiple authors." Are you not amazed that the Bible was written by different people at different times at different places, and yet, there is agreement in its teachings?

You claim that there are inaccuracies and contradictions but it's because that is how the author perceived the event from his point of view. Example: the crucifixion of Jesus narrated by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Are they actually inaccuracies and contradictions.

You claim that the Bible is "mythology". How come that the Roman empire adopted Christianity as its state religion about 300 years from the "supposed" birth of Jesus? There must be something special that happened during the first century BC?

The grace of peace of the true God be with us now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[Ossai]

PeaceCrusader
Why do you call the Bible as "a lousy source of information." Did you know that the dating of historical events are based on the "supposed" date of birth of Jesus Christ in 1 BC? Fallacious, appeal to popularity.

True, the Bible "is not a single document, there are multiple authors." Are you not amazed that the Bible was written by different people at different times at different places, and yet, there is agreement in its teachings? Nope. I’m perfectly capable of reading a story and remembering large parts of it and writing other stories that don’t directly contradict the first one. Why should I assume that others cannot do the same thing?

You claim that there are inaccuracies and contradictions but it's because that is how the author perceived the event from his point of view. Example: the crucifixion of Jesus narrated by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Are they actually inaccuracies and contradictions. Well yes, there are actually contradictions when comparing all four versions. Anything from when Jesus was born to how the resurrection was reported and what happened afterwards. And that is just the major bits, once you start looking at the details the contradictions and the author’s basis become even more glaringly apparent.

You claim that the Bible is "mythology". How come that the Roman empire adopted Christianity as its state religion about 300 years from the "supposed" birth of Jesus? There must be something special that happened during the first century BC? Fallacious, an appeal to popularity and authority.
Why not focus on the sixth (?) century and declare that something special happened for the rise of Islam to occur?
Why not focus on China and declare that Buddhism must be true because of the number of adherents?
Why not focus on England and declare the Anglican Church is the one TRUE church because otherwise god wouldn’t have let it break off from the RCC?
Why not focus on …

The grace of peace of the true God be with us now and forever. Where are you getting this peace bit from? Jesus declared he wasn’t come to bring peace but war. YHWH also seemed to order quiet a few wars and murders in his time as well.

Are you going to address the other points raised?
Ossai

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Ossai and Fellow Forumers,
We know that the true God is omnipotent, almighty, limitless in power, don’t we?

No. In fact we don’t even know if a god exists much less one that would be identifiable as god to one of the many varied Christian sects.

Assuming that there is a god, what will make you believe that he is a god? What will make god a god?

Although there are “many varied Christian sects”, what book is the basis of their being called Christians?

He created man (Genesis 1:27) and “formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul” (Genesis 2:7). Luke 1:37 states: “For with God nothing shall be impossible.”
You just claimed god was omnipotent, therefore, if god exists, people do not have freewill and the world is exactly the way god wants it.

Jesus Christ does not force anyone to believe in Him. Why? As you say, “people do not have freewill and the world is exactly the way god wants it.” Since God is not forcing us to believe in Him, there are people like you, Ossai, who use their freewill to even deny that He exists. Because of freewill, people even deny that it is God who gave them their life.

The grace of peace of the true God reign in our hearts now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[Ossai]

PeaceCrusader
Assuming that there is a god, what will make you believe that he is a god? What will make god a god? That’s it? That’s your whole argument, special pleading to assume an axiom with no definition of the axiom.


Although there are “many varied Christian sects”, what book is the basis of their being called Christians? Honestly that would depend on the sect. You do realize that there are multiple version of the bible.

Jesus Christ does not force anyone to believe in Him. Why? As you say, “people do not have freewill and the world is exactly the way god wants it.” Since God is not forcing us to believe in Him, there are people like you, Ossai, who use their freewill to even deny that He exists. Because of freewill, people even deny that it is God who gave them their life. Apparently you don’t understand. Freewill and omnipotence are mutually exclusive. If humanity has freewill then god cannot be omnipotent. If god is omnipotent then humanity cannot have freewill.

Again I ask, are you going to address the other points raised? So far your answer is apparently 'no'.

Ossai

[Beleth]

PeaceCrusader
That’s it? That’s your whole argument, special pleading to assume an axiom with no definition of the axiom.
Actually, what he asked is a imminently valid question. If there is a God, what evidence would convince you that He existed?

[Ossai]

Beleth
Actually, what he asked is a imminently valid question. If there is a God, what evidence would convince you that He existed? There are a number of answers to that question, none of which will advance PeaceCrusader’s attempted point. PeaceCrusader is the one claiming divine knowledge, he is the one that must present the evidence.

Ossai

[Beleth]

There are a number of answers to that question,
Like?

none of which will advance PeaceCrusader’s attempted point.That may very well be. I was asking outside his point, however.

PeaceCrusader is the one claiming divine knowledge, he is the one that must present the evidence.The evidence he will present, if he presents any at all, is what convinced him. How will we know if it will convince you if you don't tell us what will convince you?

As a token of good faith, I'll tell you that there is something that would convince me. I have thought a lot about it. Unfortunately, it is a secret, known only to Yahweh and myself. There is an event I have come up with that, if I told someone, they could arrange to have it happen in about fifteen minutes and it would cost them nothing. Which is why it must remain a secret.

God knows what it is. He knows that if it happens, I will consider myself to have sufficient evidence to believe in Him. But it hasn't happened yet. And it's something that definitely fits his M.O.

[CapelDodger]

God knows what it is. He knows that if it happens, I will consider myself to have sufficient evidence to believe in Him. But it hasn't happened yet. And it's something that definitely fits his M.O.
That's unsettling. "Smiting" immediately springs to mind. Would this smiting be a normal one - famine, plague, bad stuff happening? Or something more 21stCE?

[Ossai]

Beleth
There are a number of answers to that question,
Like? If you want a full answer to that, I suggest starting another thread. There may be an old one in the archive as well.
If you just want the flippant answer, god being omniscient knows exactly what would convince me and being omnipotent could easily do so.
There is no one single non-flippant answer.

The evidence he will present, if he presents any at all, is what convinced him. How will we know if it will convince you if you don't tell us what will convince you? You’re making the assumption that PeaceCrusader has some sort of evidence.

As a token of good faith, I'll tell you that there is something that would convince me. I have thought a lot about it. Unfortunately, it is a secret, known only to Yahweh and myself. There is an event I have come up with that, if I told someone, they could arrange to have it happen in about fifteen minutes and it would cost them nothing. Which is why it must remain a secret.

God knows what it is. He knows that if it happens, I will consider myself to have sufficient evidence to believe in Him. But it hasn't happened yet. And it's something that definitely fits his M.O. So you don’t want evidence of God, but instead want some event to happen to make you feel better. You do realize that million to one events happen all the time. And that if what you are waiting on is just an unlikely occurrence, i.e. not a miracle, then it will more than likely happen at some point. However, suddenly winning the lottery, to use an example, doesn’t prove god.

When I said evidence I primarily meant something that would go toward disproving the null hypothesis.


Ossai

[Crossbow]

Dear Ladewig and Fellow Forumers,

...

In my next post, I will give my proofs using plain logic to show that the angel is really Gabriel and is from God.

...

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

Excuse me, but if do actually proove the above, then you would essentially be providing proof of God. And while mankind has been assiduously seeking proof of god for several thousands of years, it has not been found yet.

I expect that you will have similar success.

[Beleth]

Beleth
If you want a full answer to that, I suggest starting another thread. There may be an old one in the archive as well.
I'm not asking in general. I'm asking you.

If you just want the flippant answer, god being omniscient knows exactly what would convince me and being omnipotent could easily do so.Yes, of course if God were omniscient, He would know. The question is, do you know?

So you don’t want evidence of God, but instead want some event to happen to make you feel better.No. You are assuming things not in evidence.

You do realize that million to one events happen all the time.Yes, I do. And I have taken that into account.

And that if what you are waiting on is just an unlikely occurrence, i.e. not a miracle, then it will more than likely happen at some point.It is not merely unlikely. It is so unlikely that it is more likely to be the result of a miracle than to be the result of a coincidence. I'm sure you don't believe that. It is true nonetheless.

However, suddenly winning the lottery, to use an example, doesn’t prove god.If you read my last post you will realize that it isn't winning the lottery. Winning the lottery is not something that someone could set up in fifteen minutes.

When I said evidence I primarily meant something that would go toward disproving the null hypothesis.I know what evidence is. What specific something would you consider as going toward disproving the null hypothesis? Winning the lottery does not; what does?

It takes some thought. Take your time.

[Beleth]

That's unsettling. "Smiting" immediately springs to mind. Would this smiting be a normal one - famine, plague, bad stuff happening? Or something more 21stCE?
I can't answer that. I apologize.

[Ossai]

Beleth
If you want a full answer to that, I suggest starting another thread. There may be an old one in the archive as well.
I'm not asking in general. I'm asking you. I’ve already answered that. Evidence that would disprove the null hypothesis.

Yes, of course if God were omniscient, He would know. The question is, do you know? Yes.

So you don’t want evidence of God, but instead want some event to happen to make you feel better.
No. You are assuming things not in evidence.


You do realize that million to one events happen all the time.
Yes, I do. And I have taken that into account.


And that if what you are waiting on is just an unlikely occurrence, i.e. not a miracle, then it will more than likely happen at some point.
It is not merely unlikely. It is so unlikely that it is more likely to be the result of a miracle than to be the result of a coincidence. I'm sure you don't believe that. It is true nonetheless. Unlikely does not mean impossible by natural means.

I know what evidence is. What specific something would you consider as going toward disproving the null hypothesis? Winning the lottery does not; what does? I was using the lottery as an illustration of statistical probability. A million to one doesn’t even begin to describe the likelihood of winning the lottery.

If, as you said earlier, your criteria can be setup in 15 minutes, then you don’t actually want evidence of divinity, but an easy excuse to believe.

BTW, has PeaceCrusader departed?

Ossai

[PeaceCrusader]

My Dear Fellow Forumers,

I wish to reiterate the logical reasons why the angel who introduced himself as Gabriel to Zechariah and the Virgin Mary is a true angel of the true God. Gabriel announced to Zechariah that his old, barren wife would give birth to a son who would be named John. Because of his unbelief to the message, he was made unable to speak. Also, this same angel announced to Mary that she would conceive and give birth to a son who would be named Jesus. Who has the power to make an old, barren woman or a virgin to conceive and give birth, or to make one unable to speak? Only the true God. And since the announcements of that angel came true, he must be the messenger of the true God.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[MRC_Hans]

Dear Peace Crusader: Your argument is circular. The Bible says that Gabriel was the messenger of the true God. The Bible also says that the mentioned announcements came true. If you put total faith in the Bible, the argument is moot. If you acknowledge that the Bible can be in error, then obviously you cannot use one statement from it to prove another.

Hans

[Ossai]

PeaceCrusader
Who has the power to make an old, barren woman or a virgin to conceive and give birth, or to make one unable to speak? Only the true God. People have the ability to do all three now.

And since the announcements of that angel came true, he must be the messenger of the true God. Self fulfilling prophecy.

Got any outside sources for any of your claims?

Ossai

[Crossbow]

My Dear Fellow Forumers,

I wish to reiterate the logical reasons why the angel who introduced himself as Gabriel to Zechariah and the Virgin Mary is a true angel of the true God. Gabriel announced to Zechariah that his old, barren wife would give birth to a son who would be named John. Because of his unbelief to the message, he was made unable to speak. Also, this same angel announced to Mary that she would conceive and give birth to a son who would be named Jesus. Who has the power to make an old, barren woman or a virgin to conceive and give birth, or to make one unable to speak? Only the true God. And since the announcements of that angel came true, he must be the messenger of the true God.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

I take it from the above that you are using the Bible to "proove" that stuff about the existence of god and angels.

If so, then your proof is quite subjective and such the only thing that you have prooved is that you believe in god and angels.

[drkitten]

Some slight modifications:

My Dear Fellow Forumers,

I wish to reiterate the logical reasons why the angel who introduced himself as Rubeus Hagrid to Harry Potter and the Dursleys is a true angel of the true God. Hagrid announced to Harry that he was a wizard and would attend Hogwarts' Academy . Because his cousin was a git, he was given a pig's tail.. Also, this same angel announced to Harry that he would have to face a Hungarian Horntail as the first challenge in the Triwizard Cup.. Who has the power to do this?? Only the true God. And since the announcements of that angel came true, he must be the messenger of the true God.

Or, in other words,.... there's no evidence that any of the stuff that you claim happened, actually did. Hagrid, Harry, and the Dursleys are all fictional. Any author can make stuff like this up by the truckload. But we've got no reason not to believe that the Virgin Mary isn't fictional, either.

[Beleth]

I’ve already answered that. Evidence that would disprove the null hypothesis.
Sigh... there's a hole in this bucket.

You have not answered the question I asked. You just keep defining what "evidence" is. I know what evidence is. I want to know a specific piece of evidence that would convince you. If the moon disappeared for a week, for instance, and then re-appeared with a big Alfred E. Newman face on it. Something that specific. Do you understand this question?

Unlikely does not mean impossible by natural means. What is an example of an event would you consider "impossible by natural means"?

If, as you said earlier, your criteria can be setup in 15 minutes, then you don’t actually want evidence of divinity, but an easy excuse to believe.Semantics. Evidence itself is an "excuse to believe".

[Darth Rotor]

Some slight modifications:



Or, in other words,.... there's no evidence that any of the stuff that you claim happened, actually did. Hagrid, Harry, and the Dursleys are all fictional. Any author can make stuff like this up by the truckload. But we've got no reason not to believe that the Virgin Mary isn't fictional, either.
I am still waiting on the promised logical proof and linkage to Gabriel and Mohammed -- granting God axiomatically for the purposes of this discussion -- but I suspect I am in for a very long wait.

DR

[bignickel]

I am an agnostic. No evidence will convince me of the existence of god/s.

The agnostic position does not ask for evidence, since no evidence will prove the existence of the supernatural (although we can be curious about bleeding statues, just to see if we can work out the trick. if we can't, we can't).

[Ossai]

Beleth
You have not answered the question I asked. You just keep defining what "evidence" is. I know what evidence is. I want to know a specific piece of evidence that would convince you. If the moon disappeared for a week, for instance, and then re-appeared with a big Alfred E. Newman face on it. Something that specific. Do you understand this question? As I stated there is no real limit of one piece of evidence.
How about appearing to everyone on the planet simultaneously and relaying a message understandable to all?
How about resurrecting all the dead?
How about the reforming of Pangaea in an eye blink with no loss of current life?


If, as you said earlier, your criteria can be setup in 15 minutes, then you don’t actually want evidence of divinity, but an easy excuse to believe.
Semantics. Evidence itself is an "excuse to believe". No, you are mixing your word usage. You’re confusing believe and faith. Evidence represents knowledge. If you have evidence of god then you know. If there is no evidence then you have faith. What you’ve done in requiring an unlikely scenario is nothing more than an attempt to substitute one for the other.

Ossai

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Crossbow and Fellow Forumers,

I wish to reiterate the logical reasons why the angel who introduced himself as Gabriel to Zechariah and the Virgin Mary is a true angel of the true God. Gabriel announced to Zechariah that his old, barren wife would give birth to a son who would be named John. Because of his unbelief to the message, he was made unable to speak. Also, this same angel announced to Mary that she would conceive and give birth to a son who would be named Jesus. Who has the power to make an old, barren woman or a virgin to conceive and give birth, or to make one unable to speak? Only the true God. And since the announcements of that angel came true, he must be the messenger of the true God.

I take it from the above that you are using the Bible to "proove" that stuff about the existence of god and angels.

If so, then your proof is quite subjective and such the only thing that you have prooved is that you believe in god and angels.

Do you believe that God is omnipotent? If He is such, then He can make a virgin to conceive and give birth, can't He? He can make a barren, old woman to conceive and give birth, can't He? I used these examples to show the omnipotence of God. And these became realities. Is Jesus a myth? Then why did the Roman empire adopt Christianity as its state religion during the 4th century AD? Is John the Baptist a myth? Isn't He the child of the barren, old woman Elisabeth and the old temple priest Zechariah? Isn't John the Baptist a character in the New Testament?

What proofs do you want? Would you like to see the birth of three-eyed babies? The coming of the chaotic World War III which will start in the Philippines? The coming drought and famine that will be worse than what Israel experienced in ancient times? The loss of ALL jobs in the world? Can God not make these prophecies to happen?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[drkitten]

Do you believe that God is omnipotent? If He is such, then He can make a virgin to conceive and give birth, can't He? He can make a barren, old woman to conceive and give birth, can't He? I used these examples to show the omnipotence of God.

Yes. And that's called "circular reasoning," or "begging the question." You're specifically assuming that God is omnipotent, and then showing that God's omnipotence follows from that assumption.

Big, fat, hairy, and logically fallacious deal.

And these became realities.

We don't know this. We don't actually have any evidence beyond the book whose very veracity you're trying to prove.

Again, that's circular reasoning. If the tales recounted in the Bible are factually accurate, then the tales recounted in the Bible are factually accurate. But I could (as I pointed out) make exactly the same statements about the Harry Potter series. if the stories are true, then Harry is a real wizard and Hogwarts is a real place... and therefore, the stories are true.


Is Jesus a myth? Then why did the Roman empire adopt Christianity as its state religion during the 4th century AD?

Because someone in the 4th century was either convinced of its truth -- or more likely, found it politically advisable to declare Christianity to be the state religion. Neither of which demonstrates that Christianity is more than a myth.



Is John the Baptist a myth? Isn't He the child of the barren, old woman Elisabeth and the old temple priest Zechariah?

I don't know. Isn't Harry Potter the child of the wizards James and Lily Potter?

So what?

Isn't John the Baptist a character in the New Testament?

This, oddly enough, is true.


Can God not make these prophecies to happen?

No, He can't. Because Harry Potter is more powerful than God and will bitchslap God into next Tuesday and make Him scream like a schoolgirl if He tries.


What proofs do you want?

A good start would be to provide any sort of proof that couldn't just as easily apply to Harry Potter.

[Foster Zygote]

Because someone in the 4th century was either convinced of its truth -- or more likely, found it politically advisable to declare Christianity to be the state religion. Neither of which demonstrates that Christianity is more than a myth.

Not to mention that the Romans had adopted the Greek pantheon much earlier, so by PeaceCrusader's logic there must be some validity to the Greek god's as well.

[Crossbow]

Dear Crossbow and Fellow Forumers,





Do you believe that God is omnipotent? If He is such, then He can make a virgin to conceive and give birth, can't He? He can make a barren, old woman to conceive and give birth, can't He? I used these examples to show the omnipotence of God. And these became realities. Is Jesus a myth? Then why did the Roman empire adopt Christianity as its state religion during the 4th century AD? Is John the Baptist a myth? Isn't He the child of the barren, old woman Elisabeth and the old temple priest Zechariah? Isn't John the Baptist a character in the New Testament?

What proofs do you want? Would you like to see the birth of three-eyed babies? The coming of the chaotic World War III which will start in the Philippines? The coming drought and famine that will be worse than what Israel experienced in ancient times? The loss of ALL jobs in the world? Can God not make these prophecies to happen?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

Sorry, but since I do not know that there is a god, I am unable to determine if he is omnipotent or not.

Of course, if there is a god, and if that god is actually omnipotent, then he could do whatever he wants whenever he wants.

[fuelair]

My Dear Fellowmen,

All Muslims are expected to believe the main doctrines of Islam consisting of five articles of faith. These are:

God. His name is Allah and is the supreme being of all. He is uncreated, without beginning or end. He created all.
Angels. Every person has two angels; one records his good deeds, and the other, his bad deeds. Jibreel (Gabriel) is the angel who brought the revelation of the Qu’ran to Muhammad.
Scripture. The four inspired books in Islam are the Taurat (Torah or the first five books of Moses), the Zaboor (Psalms of David), the Injeel (gospel message of Jesus Christ in the New Testament), and the Qu’ran. The Qu’ran supersedes the other books since it is the last and final revelation of Allah.
Prophets. Among the numerous prophets or messengers of Allah, the six greatest are Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad.
Last Days. All people will be resurrected on the last day to be judged. Muslims will go to the Garden of Paradise, the Islamic heaven, and the rest will be tormented in hell. The Islamic heaven is a place of entertainment where men and their wives will be reclining in raised couches and shall have whatever they desire. Is there anything in these doctrines not correct or not clear? If so, please point it out and explain.

Did the Lord God talk to His prophets?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible created Adam, and out of Adam’s rib, Eve. When they sinned by disobeying God, God drove them out from the garden of Eden. God talked to Adam. If Adam is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible told Noah to build an ark for He would destroy all flesh because of man’s wickedness. In Genesis 6:18 (KJV), God said, “But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons’ wives with thee.” God spared these eight persons and the living things in the ark when God flooded the earth. God talked to Noah. If Noah is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible made a covenant with Abram (later called Abraham): “Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates” (Genesis 15:18, KJV). Notice that God said, “Unto thy seed.” Singular. Only one. Abraham had two children: Ishmael, the descendants of whom are Muhammad and the Arabs and the Muslims; and Isaac, the descendants of whom are the Jews and Jesus. Who is this seed that God was referring to? God talked to Abraham. If Abraham is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible made Moses to lead in the liberation of the Israelites from about 400 years of bondage in Egypt. God talked to Moses. If Moses is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

The Lord God of the Holy Bible said, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” during Jesus’ baptism (Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:21) and in the transfiguration, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him” (Matthew 17:5, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35). God said of this prophet Jesus, “hear ye him.” If Jesus is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why He is so?

The Holy Bible does not mention the name Muhammad. He is supposedly the last and final prophet although God did not talk to him. The Qu’ran was revealed to him by the angel Jibreel (Gabriel). Why is it that it is not God who directly reveal the Qu’ran to him? If Muhammad is one of the greatest prophets or messengers of Allah, could you please tell us why he is so?

Is Allah of the Qu’ran and the Lord God of the Holy Bible one and the same?

The peace of the true God reign in our hearts now and forever.

With love, your brother in Jesus,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
Motto: pro aris et focis
http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/ (http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/)
“The Internet is mightier than the sword.”


Actually, like the Bibble, the Squrlran is the product of a fake god who escaped many years ago into the wilderness and hides there in a tree under the name of Saunders (the fake god, not the tree).

[Ossai]

PeaceCrusader
Do you believe that God is omnipotent? If He is such, then He can make a virgin to conceive and give birth, can't He? He can make a barren, old woman to conceive and give birth, can't He? You don’t have to be omnipotent for those.

As mentioned previously (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2401964&postcount=118) Jesus cannot be the messiah as he cannot claim Davidic descent not did he fulfill the other messianic prophecies.

Ossai

[Ossai]

:wackyrealmad:
Don't you hate it when someone starts a thread, then ignores it?

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Ossai and Fellow Forumers,

:wackyrealmad:
Don't you hate it when someone starts a thread, then ignores it?

I am very sorry if I cannot answer you straight away. I am not ignoring you. In fact, I like participating in forums because I learn from others and also am able to raise my questions and doubts, and impart my own experiences.

FYI, I am departing for the Philippines next week and I have been preparing for this trip. So I just don't have much time to respond to all your posts. Also, I am still working full-time, so it is only in the evening of weekdays and on weekends that I may answer your posts.

Please have patience. I will get back to you. Meantime, please carry on.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Ossai and Fellow Forumers,

Dear Ossai and Fellow Forumers,

I am very sorry if I cannot answer you straight away. I am not ignoring you. In fact, I like participating in forums because I learn from others and also am able to raise my questions and doubts, and impart my own experiences.

FYI, I am departing for the Philippines next week and I have been preparing for this trip. So I just don't have much time to respond to all your posts. Also, I am still working full-time, so it is only in the evening of weekdays and on weekends that I may answer your posts.

Please have patience. I will get back to you. Meantime, please carry on.

I am back from the Philippines. I was hoping that you will carry on the discussion while I was away but it was not the case.

Anyway, my point in asking the question if the Qur'an is from the true God is to get answers from Muslims who know their religion better than I do. If Muslims in this forum cannot give any satisfactory answers, they may pass the question to learned scholars of Islam or their Imam or from fellow Muslims. They may write to them in their own languages. Forumers may understand what I wrote in English here and they can communicate with them in their own languages. For example, Arabic. I do not know how to speak and write in Arabic but forumers may pick up my question and raise this in Arabic to the Arabic community.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Ossai and Fellow Forumers,

PeaceCrusader
You don’t have to be omnipotent for those.

As mentioned previously (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2401964&postcount=118) Jesus cannot be the messiah as he cannot claim Davidic descent not did he fulfill the other messianic prophecies.

Ossai

Did you know why Christians use the Old Testament? Because the prophecies regarding the coming Messiah in the Old Testament were fulfilled in Jesus. Because Jesus is the Messiah. I think even the Muslims acknowledge the Messiahship of Jesus. Their Arabic word is mesi for Messiah. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[Ossai]

PeaceCrusader
Did you know why Christians use the Old Testament? Because the prophecies regarding the coming Messiah in the Old Testament were fulfilled in Jesus. No they were not. The messianic prophecies have not been fulfilled.

Because Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies. Already referenced (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2401964&postcount=118).

I think even the Muslims acknowledge the Messiahship of Jesus. Their Arabic word is mesi for Messiah. Please correct me if I am wrong. Wrong there as well. Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet, not the messiah.

Ossai

[Foster Zygote]

Did you know why Christians use the Old Testament?

Because the early Christian sects that wanted to be connected with the Hebrew tradition won out over those other sects that wanted nothing to do with the God of Abraham.

[TriangleMan]

Please correct me if I am wrong.
You know, you could just skim through the Qur'an and/or go to websites like islamweb.net to get answers, rather than posting them on a skeptics board.

As Ossai noted, Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, just as the prophet Muhammed was. The Qur'an makes it clear that Jesus was human, not divine, and was not ressurected. The Qur'an does agree with the Bible on some other matters (virgin birth, performance of certain miracles).

It's all there in the Qur'an, why don't you take some time to read it to get the answers to your questions about Islam.

[Kopji]

hi peacecrusader,
I am a little curious about your strategy. Logic and a sense of consistency would dictate that you would accept the Book of Mormon because God spoke to Joseph Smith, and the BoM says that the Bible is true, etc. Millions of Mormons exist who say so.

With such confirming evidence in hand, how could you deny otherwise?

Do you see where your methodology fails? The 'truth' of the Bible is accepted by faith, yet so is the Quran. So is the Book of Mormon. One book believed in by faith cannot prove or disprove another.

You are in a real sense, wasting your time.

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Kopji and Fellow Forumers,

hi peacecrusader,
I am a little curious about your strategy. Logic and a sense of consistency would dictate that you would accept the Book of Mormon because God spoke to Joseph Smith, and the BoM says that the Bible is true, etc. Millions of Mormons exist who say so.

With such confirming evidence in hand, how could you deny otherwise?

Do you see where your methodology fails? The 'truth' of the Bible is accepted by faith, yet so is the Quran. So is the Book of Mormon. One book believed in by faith cannot prove or disprove another.

You are in a real sense, wasting your time.

Did you know that even the Devil can talk about God and about religion? That is why we have to be discerning, scrutinizing. Please prove that it was the true God who revealed the Book of Mormon or the Qur'an. What makes a god god? How can we differentiate the true God from the false gods? Plain logic, please. Without referring to any holy scripture.

When we were little, our parents gave us a pair of trousers. Now that we are grown up, do we still wear those trousers? Did you know that this is a parable told to me? Did you know what those trousers represent? They represent the religion that our parents gave to us when we were kids or infants. Can our parents save us? Who do you think can save us?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[Filippo Lippi]

How can we differentiate the true God from the false gods?

I can't, but am open to being taught. Please do it without reference to scripture or any trouser shorter than a plus-4.

[Filippo Lippi]

Paraphrased parable of the trousers = new sig. line.

[Ladewig]

Can our parents save us? Who do you think can save us?


I don't think we need to be saved. I see no reliable evidence that we need to be saved.

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Filippo Lippi and Fellow Forumers,

I can't, but am open to being taught. Please do it without reference to scripture or any trouser shorter than a plus-4.

How do we conceive a god to be? Should he not be omnipotent (almighty, limitless in power), omniscient (knowing all things), and omnipresent (present everywhere at the same time) (meanings from The Pocket Macquarie Dictionary).

Who can tell us what happened in the past? And importantly, who can tell us what will happen in the future? The true God should be able to foretell the future and He should have the power to make them happen. He can tell us of unnatural and unbelievable events. And because He is the true God, He can make things that are impossible to men to become possible. Because He is omnipotent. This alone separates the true God from the false gods. The false gods cannot foretell the future because they do not know what will happen in the future, and they do not have the power to make things that are impossible to become possible.

Does this make sense? Now, is the God of the Jews the true God? Is the God of the Christians the true God? Is Allah the true God? Is Buddha the true God? Is Krishna the true God? Please scrutinize what they say and did and test them if they qualify as the true God.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Ladewig and Fellow Forumers,

I don't think we need to be saved. I see no reliable evidence that we need to be saved.

Don't you think that there is something more than just our physical body? What do you think makes a person who is lying on the ground dead due to heart attack from the people around him who may be spectators or trying to revive him?

What is it that is in you that makes us say you are alive? And what is it that a dead person in a coffin does not have that we say that he is dead?

How can we be saved? By following the commandments? Whose commandments? The true God's? The false gods'? How can we know the difference? Whose commandments do we follow?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
Motto: pro aris et focis
"The Internet is mightier that the sword."

[Filippo Lippi]

Does this make sense? Now, is the God of the Jews the true God? Is the God of the Christians the true God? Is Allah the true God? Is Buddha the true God? Is Krishna the true God? Please scrutinize what they say and did and test them if they qualify as the true God.



I have seen no evidence that any of them are "god." I have seen no evidence that what they are reported to "say" or reported to have said is divine in origin.

[Ossai]

PeaceCrusader
Please prove that it was the true God who revealed the Book of Mormon or the Qur'an. What makes a god god? How can we differentiate the true God from the false gods? Plain logic, please. Without referring to any holy scripture. Please prove that it was the true God who revealed the Books of the Bible. What makes a god god? How can we differentiate the true God from the false gods? Plain logic, please. Without referring to any holy scripture.

How do we conceive a god to be? Should he not be omnipotent (almighty, limitless in power), omniscient (knowing all things), and omnipresent (present everywhere at the same time) (meanings from The Pocket Macquarie Dictionary). So you want to be a puppet?

The false gods cannot foretell the future because they do not know what will happen in the future, and they do not have the power to make things that are impossible to become possible. Well, that rules out YHWH.

Does this make sense? Now, is the God of the Jews the true God? Is the God of the Christians the true God? Is Allah the true God? Is Buddha the true God? Is Krishna the true God? Please scrutinize what they say and did and test them if they qualify as the true God. Based on your definition, none of them measure up.

Don't you think that there is something more than just our physical body? Nope.
What do you think makes a person who is lying on the ground dead due to heart attack from the people around him who may be spectators or trying to revive him? The dead bloke will have his pockets gone through by the paramedics in the ambulance?
In a serious vein, the biological functions have stopped.

What is it that is in you that makes us say you are alive? And what is it that a dead person in a coffin does not have that we say that he is dead? Again, biological function, if you want specifics consult any licensed medical doctor.

How can we be saved? By following the commandments? Whose commandments? The true God's? The false gods'? How can we know the difference? Whose commandments do we follow? Waiting for the punch line.

Ossai

[Ladewig]

Dear Ladewig and Fellow Forumers,



Don't you think that there is something more than just our physical body?

No, I do not. Do you have any evidence that we are?

What do you think makes a person who is lying on the ground dead due to heart attack from the people around him who may be spectators or trying to revive him?

What is it that is in you that makes us say you are alive? And what is it that a dead person in a coffin does not have that we say that he is dead?

I hope that the answer you are thinking of is not "a soul"? We can look at animals and easily determine which ones are alive and which ones are dead without theorizing that animals have souls. The same applies to people.

How can we be saved?

Saved from what? I still see no reason that we need to be saved at all?

[Ladewig]

Who can tell us what happened in the past? And importantly, who can tell us what will happen in the future? The true God should be able to foretell the future

So your position is that God knew:

- that when He arbitrarily praised Abel's offering and rejected Cain's offering, He knew that he was setting up the motivation for the first murder.

- that when Elisha encountered the youths that mocked Elisha's baldness, Elisha would curse the youths in the name of the Lord which would result in the deaths of 42 children.

- that He would have to kill all Job's children to win a bet with the devil.

- that Adam and Eve would eat from the tree and that that sin so was very, very bad, that not only would Adam and Eve be punished, all their descendents into perpetuity would have to be punished as well.

-that kooks like Fred Phelps would mis-interpret scriptures to a point that God's word would be used to fan the flames of hatred, yet God did nothing to make the message more clear, less ambiguous, and more timeless.


Is there a word for omni-A-Hole because it sounds like the God of the Bible fits that perfectly.

[Almo]

"Is the Qu'ran from the true God?"

No. There is no god.

[Beleth]

How do we conceive a god to be? Should he not be omnipotent (almighty, limitless in power), omniscient (knowing all things), and omnipresent (present everywhere at the same time) (meanings from The Pocket Macquarie Dictionary).
A God with those qualities, in this observed reality, would be the epitome of Evil.

I see no reason to worship such a God.

[freudianlip]

Apparently I am muslim,musselman, or whatever. Anyway.. I would like to point out that Islam is subject to the same subdivisions and interpretation that Christianity is. There are many different facets and in my experience not all extremist as all roman catholics are not all charismatics. Under the umbrella term muslim are also Ismaili's, Sufi's which both stem from the divisions known as shia and sunni. There are probably many others that I am not mentioning but having ranted about all that I am not a good or holy muslim in any sense of the word but do find a certain meditative peace uttering religious refrains (once every 2 years or so when I remember or when an event occurs that familial relationships warrant) ;) Not all muslims are bound by the 5 pillars some have even adopted three and some are guided and updated yearly. Remember that Mohammad was a man who was of low social calibre, who fell in love with a sucessful buisness woman who was also a widow..thus issues such as caste, social mobility and subservient femininity are not entirely due to religious control of the masses..but are in my opinion also easily attributed to patriarchal suppression ,politics and control. So poor me burdened by Catholic guilt from my mom and by islam from my dad..I guess I doomed no matter which way i turn! Perhaps I might create a new thread for the misfortunate who are barred from all known heavens and take suggestions for a new one...:) Ps.. Intellect appeal...please give generously..

[apathetic medic]

Dear Ladewig and Fellow Forumers,



Don't you think that there is something more than just our physical body? What do you think makes a person who is lying on the ground dead due to heart attack from the people around him who may be spectators or trying to revive him?

What is it that is in you that makes us say you are alive? And what is it that a dead person in a coffin does not have that we say that he is dead?

How can we be saved? By following the commandments? Whose commandments? The true God's? The false gods'? How can we know the difference? Whose commandments do we follow?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
Motto: pro aris et focis
"The Internet is mightier that the sword."

Simply!
There is nothing more than our physical body. The mind is what the brain does. To be dead, separate from living, is when there is no spontaneous heart beat or respirations and all brain function has ceased.

You ask "How can we be saved"? This question presupposes that there is some 'salvation' required. Your further questions follow from that presupposition. Can you please give some compelling evidence for that premise of necessary 'salvation'?

[freudianlip]

Simply!
There is nothing more than our physical body. The mind is what the brain does. To be dead, separate from living, is when there is no spontaneous heart beat or respirations and all brain function has ceased.

You ask "How can we be saved"? This question presupposes that there is some 'salvation' required. Your further questions follow from that presupposition. Can you please give some compelling evidence for that premise of necessary 'salvation'?

:duel What then of the basic human notion of hope..If I have no hope then everything is pointless.....If I do not strive for some thing to happen to the psyche I become despondent.My existence is for what??? And an added bonus...my mother was wrong..heh..heh......Whatever happens if I can come back and tell you will you donate the $1million to hopeless,despondent people who are too afraid to deny the existence of an afterlife. (There are no atheists in a foxhole syndrome) I like to hedge my bets and a true scientific thinker keeps an open mind!:bike:

[CapelDodger]

"Is the Qu'ran from the true God?"

No. There is no god.
True.

[CapelDodger]

We can look at animals and easily determine which ones are alive and which ones are dead without theorizing that animals have souls.

Ah, the Parable of the Maggot and the Roadkill. One of my favourites. :)

[CapelDodger]

If I do not strive for some thing to happen to the psyche I become despondent.

That way lies inevitable despondency. If that's a problem for you, and I get the impression it is, I suggest you take a serious look at "contentment". It's always worked for me.


My existence is for what???

It's not for anything, it just is. A gift-horse. As is mine (not dead yet, by the way).

And an added bonus...my mother was wrong..heh..heh...

My mother is an infallible source.

(There are no atheists in a foxhole syndrome)

That's not a syndrome suffered by atheists, it's one suffered by more insecure types who can't imagine how atheists can feel so grounded.

It's up to you to dig your foxhole to best effect, and you should have been taught how to and paid attention. When it comes to the crunch, a 155mm dropping shot on your position will see you off, and there's no shame in filling your pants while that's being a real and immediate issue. I would seriously hate to experience an artillery barrage. It wouldn't stop me being an atheist, though.

Then there's the moment when the barrage stops and you have to stick your head up because there'll be infantry coming at you. I hope I'd do it for my mates, but I'd still do it as an atheist.

I like to hedge my bets and a true scientific thinker keeps an open mind!

Without letting their brains fall out.

[apathetic medic]

:duel What then of the basic human notion of hope..If I have no hope then everything is pointless.....If I do not strive for some thing to happen to the psyche I become despondent.My existence is for what??? And an added bonus...my mother was wrong..heh..heh......Whatever happens if I can come back and tell you will you donate the $1million to hopeless,despondent people who are too afraid to deny the existence of an afterlife. (There are no atheists in a foxhole syndrome) I like to hedge my bets and a true scientific thinker keeps an open mind!:bike:


The feeling of hope is a function of the brain as are all other feelings, including feeling pointless. I have 'hope' for an afterlife though I see no evidence for it. I have hope for the existence of leprechauns though I see no evidence for them. My mind is open to compelling evidence.

Our existence has the meaning which we give to it. I find meaning in my family, in service to my community as a volunteer firefighter and paramedic, to my country and the world at large as a medic in our armed forces. In short my meaning in life is to help others, to serve others unto the point of risking my life for THEM, not to avoid a punishment or recieve a reward after death.

If I did not address some of your points it is because I could not understand them as written.

[RandFan]

Dear Ladewig and Fellow Forumers,

Don't you think that there is something more than just our physical body? What do you think makes a person who is lying on the ground dead due to heart attack from the people around him who may be spectators or trying to revive him?

What is it that is in you that makes us say you are alive? And what is it that a dead person in a coffin does not have that we say that he is dead?

How can we be saved? By following the commandments? Whose commandments? The true God's? The false gods'? How can we know the difference? Whose commandments do we follow?

No.
Huh?
Blood circulation and measurable critical brain functions.
Lack of blood circulation and lack of measurable critical brain functions.
Saved from what?
The commandments you speak of are human constructs, incompatible, contradictory and often silly and stupid.
There is no reason to believe that there are gods true or otherwise.
(see 7)
(see 7)
I would choose societal standards, ethics and laws based on modern moral philosophy over stone age beliefs that are steeped in superstition and tribalism any day.Thanks for the questions.

"Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one"

--John Lennon

RandFan

[The Grave]

I don't recognise the five pillars of faith for Muslims in the OP, I always thought they were

1) There is one God called Allah and Muhammad is his prophet
2) Daily Prayer
3) Charity
4) Fasting
5) Pilgrimage


Shouldn't this read:-

5 pillars of faith...

1-Kill anyone who is not a muslim

2-If a person refuses to be a muslim -kill them

3-A non-muslim will rot in hell, so to prevent this, torture him until he becomes a muslim or else - kill him

4-After killing them you will recieve 72 virgins for your pleasure

5-If they are no good, kill them too!

The same may as well go for all faithers...

Griff...

[The Grave]

[quote=Darat;2352577]I don't recognise the five pillars of faith for Muslims in the OP, I always thought they were

1) There is one God called Allah and Muhammad is his prophet
2) Daily Prayer
3) Charity
4) Fasting
5) Pilgrimage

6. what ever nasty thing allah tells me to do I will do it... cos IT's the best and you all are going to die.... Funny that, bearing in mind if you're going to heaven then that's a pretty good thing.... so why do these pricks go on-and on- about killing people if they believe this crap about a better place?
7. I'll have a Big Mac {and a Bomb on my head} for breakfast... oh sorry I can't use that word... end-of-starvation-time... and an extra helping of disrespect and allah bashing.... bomb be with you! My sonshine...
8. rule the entire plant by force... just bloody try!
9. make up a more recent book to better the bible.... oh no, oh my, oh 'faeces', now the morons are at it too!
10. Try to look convincing when you explain that there are 72 virgins waiting to greet you after you've blown 72 children apart, in that other, less important life you're leaving behind!!!!Vengeance is mine sayeth the lord....Yeah, but the virgins are mine said allah.

Griff...

[calebprime]

What then of the basic human notion of hope..

If I have no hope then everything is pointless.....

If I do not strive for some thing to happen to the psyche I become despondent.

My existence is for what???

And an added bonus...my mother was wrong..heh..heh......

Whatever happens if I can come back and tell you will you donate the $1million to hopeless,despondent people who are too afraid to deny the existence of an afterlife.

(There are no atheists in a foxhole syndrome)

I like to hedge my bets and a true scientific thinker keeps an open mind!

That way lies inevitable despondency. If that's a problem for you, and I get the impression it is, I suggest you take a serious look at "contentment". It's always worked for me.




It's not for anything, it just is. A gift-horse. As is mine (not dead yet, by the way).



My mother is an infallible source.



That's not a syndrome suffered by atheists, it's one suffered by more insecure types who can't imagine how atheists can feel so grounded.

It's up to you to dig your foxhole to best effect, and you should have been taught how to and paid attention. When it comes to the crunch, a 155mm dropping shot on your position will see you off, and there's no shame in filling your pants while that's being a real and immediate issue. I would seriously hate to experience an artillery barrage. It wouldn't stop me being an atheist, though.

Then there's the moment when the barrage stops and you have to stick your head up because there'll be infantry coming at you. I hope I'd do it for my mates, but I'd still do it as an atheist.



Without letting their brains fall out.

a better reply than he deserved.

[ToddH]

"Is the Qu'ran from the true God?"

No. There is no god.

Agreed.

[Beerina]

Is Allah of the Qu’ran and the Lord God of the Holy Bible one and the same?[/FONT]

Theologically, yes. "Yahweh" is the same character as "Allah" as Islam derives from Judaism.

Etymologically, no. Allah is Al-Lah, "the god", but the "lah" part is a corruption of the same "el" in Elohim, and the "el" ending of Michael, Gabriel, and Nathaniel, among others, as and may also be the "al" ending of Baal, "Ba'al".

Yahweh, Jehova, Joshua, and Jesus are all the same word, by the way. Apparently it originally meant "to become". The Yah is also present in names like Matthew (Matt-yah) and John, via Jonathan, Yah-nathan.

The name "Joel" combines Yahweh and El, Yah is God, the same Yah in alleluiah-- Praise Yah.

[mhaze]

I only discuss Islam with topless Muslim girls on the beach.

[Elentar]

Did you know that I bought a second hand economy car for use in commuting to work about six months ago? Did you know that it is a Toyota Echo? Did you know that its registration plate number is 462 IDE? Did you know that IDE, I realized later, stands for "I Thee Echo"? Did you know that prior to this car, the registration number that I got for our previous family car was 240 ICD? Did you know that ICD stands for the equivalent text message "I see Thee"? Did you know that ICD also stands for the Latin "Iesus Christus Deus" or "Jesus Christ God"? Coincidences? There are plenty of "coincidences" in my life.

Barking mad.

Is the flying horse that Mohammed rode on the same as the Pegasus? Is Stan Lee's Thor the same as the Thunder God of the Norse? Is Corellon Lorethian in my D&D campaign the same as the Corellon Lorethian in your D&D campaign?

Who cares?

Without an actual existing person to which something refers, all representations of a fictional character are idiosyncratic, no two quite alike. They do not refer to anything real, so they can only be the same by being described in exactly the same way--including the name given to them. Otherwise they are different characters. So, the character Allah in the mythology of the Koran is different from the character of Yahweh in the Old Testament, who is again different from the character of God in the New Testament. Three mythologies, three different mythological figures.

So, there's your answer. I'm sure it wasn't what you were looking for.

What the hell were you looking for?

[Complexity]

That's as silly as asking whether the bible is from the true god.

(best answer is 'mu' - unask the question - then explain to the fool asking it that there are no gods)