The Gospel of Thomas

[FireGarden]

http://www.misericordia.edu/users/davies/thomas/Trans.htm

Ok, there are some bad verses, but these are the ones I liked:

Because it endorses science:
5 Jesus said, "Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you.


28 because it sounds good after 13:
13 Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to something and tell me what I am like."
Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a just messenger."
Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher."
Thomas said to him, "Teacher, my mouth is utterly unable to say what you are like."
Jesus said, "I am not your teacher. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring that I have tended."
[....]

28 Jesus said, "I took my stand in the midst of the world, and in flesh I appeared to them. I found them all drunk, and I did not find any of them thirsty. My soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their hearts and do not see, for they came into the world empty, and they also seek to depart from the world empty.
But meanwhile they are drunk. When they shake off their wine, then they will change their ways."


"United we stand":
48 Jesus said, "If two make peace with each other in a single house, they will say to the mountain, 'Move from here!' and it will move."


Shemp will like the last line of this: :D
Anyone seen the movie "Stigmata"?
77 [.....]
Split a piece of wood; I am there.
Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

Cryptic Verse:
89 Jesus said, "Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Don't you understand that the one who made the inside is also the one who made the outside?"

[triadboy]

This Gospel is great because it is the closest Gospel we have pointing to the 'original' Xians. I've read this Gospel may predate Matthew/Luke!

The Jewish Gnostics melded the Jewish religion with Pagan Gnostic religions (Mithra, Osiris, Dionysus, etc).

In Gnosticism, initiates were given a document to peruse and become intimately familiar with. This helped indoctrinate initiates into the 'outer mysteries'. Once they were familiar with the story, the initiates were then treated to a grand secret ceremony, where they would be made privy to the 'inner mysteries'.

The Gospel of Thomas is close to an outer mystery document. No idiotic tale woven around the sayings.

[Yahweh]

Split a piece of wood; I am there.
Lift up the stone, and you will find me there.
Since I've seen Stigmata (the movie), I've always had a hard time interpreting what that quote meant. As near as I can tell, it says building/attending churches or temples in the name of Christianity is not necessary because Jesus is all around... or something to that extent... someone correct me if I'm wrong...

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by GoodPropaganda
Cryptic Verse:
89 Jesus said, "Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Don't you understand that the one who made the inside is also the one who made the outside?"
This is related to his statements about silly religious laws, and his statements about church leaders being fond of laying burdens on the people. In other words, don't worry about all the ritual washing and such. Washing your "outside" won't make the "inside" any more or less sacred. The "cup" is a metaphor.

[triadboy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GoodPropaganda
Split a piece of wood; I am there.

It's the old : "I'm here, I'm there, I'm everywhere...so beware."

What cartoon was that from?

[FireGarden]

In "Stigmata" they had to pretend that this Gospel had been suppressed by the Vatican, which I think is somewhat funny. With everything else that is at odds with religion in the modern world, the pope would worry that a 2000 year old book would pull people away from Christianity? Odd

Very few Christians seem to have Triadboy's enthusiasm for Thomas.

Pyrrho
I thought that maybe it was an attack upon those who merely do the rituals but do not truely believe. Those who "put on an act" of being faithful to please those around them.

But it could be an attack upon the rituals themselves.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by GoodPropaganda
In "Stigmata" they had to pretend that this Gospel had been suppressed by the Vatican, which I think is somewhat funny. With everything else that is at odds with religion in the modern world, the pope would worry that a 2000 year old book would pull people away from Christianity? Odd

Don't forget about the Secret Gospel of Mark. If this document does in fact exist, the church is doing a great job suppressing it. In it - we would learn more about the naked boy clad only in linen who is briefly mentioned in the traditional Gospel of Mark.

Very few Christians seem to have Triadboy's enthusiasm for Thomas.

I don't imagine xians are thrilled with its discovery. There is supported thinking, that the 'first' Xians were Gnostics who took a Jewish Gnosticism and added Xian mythology and images. Paul was one of these early Gnostics. [The 'Pastoral' letters of Paul are late arrivals and are known fakes. These are the letters that teach Gnosticism is bad.]

All religions are broken into Gnostics and Literalists. In the case of Xianity - the Literalists won the game. They destroyed every Gnostic text they could find - but missed the Gospel of Thomas lying in a cave with other Gnostic texts.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by triadboy
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GoodPropaganda
Split a piece of wood; I am there.

It's the old : "I'm here, I'm there, I'm everywhere...so beware."

What cartoon was that from?

I think it is more something along the lines of if you try to dissect peace, or truth, or whatever it is that makes Jesus good, that is try to understand his essence, there is only more of it inside that was already apparent on the outside. That is, if he is just saying the truth, there is only more truth when you delve deeper into him.

[a_unique_person]

I was interested to see that there was a gospel of Thomas, and that it predates the other gospels. It shows a sharper, more critical Jesus. Someone who appears to be more human.

[Diamond]

I think its significant that Tarsus was one of the centers of Mithra worship, a source religion for Christianity that shows startling simularities to the messages given in the Epistles of Paul.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I was interested to see that there was a gospel of Thomas, and that it predates the other gospels.
The Columbia Encyclopedia (http://www.bartleby.com/65/th/ThomGos.html) (6th ed., 2001) says "It is possible that the Gospel of Thomas is as early as the New Testament Gospels; more likely, the work is based on the sayings of Jesus preserved in the Gospels and edited from a gnostic point of view."
Originally posted by Diamond
I think its significant that Tarsus was one of the centers of Mithra worship, a source religion for Christianity that shows startling simularities to the messages given in the Epistles of Paul.Know of any recent scholarship regarding the "source religion for Christianity" part? Ulansey, the best-known contemporary Mithraism specialist, seems not to agree.

[triadboy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ceo_esq

The Columbia Encyclopedia (http://www.bartleby.com/65/th/ThomGos.html) (6th ed., 2001) says "It is possible that the Gospel of Thomas is as early as the New Testament Gospels; more likely, the work is based on the sayings of Jesus preserved in the Gospels and edited from a gnostic point of view."

This appears to assume Xianity existed BEFORE Gnosticism. My research supports the new thinking that Jewish/Xian Gnosticism was first - then came traditional Xianity.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by triadboy
This appears to assume Xianity existed BEFORE Gnosticism. My research supports the new thinking that Jewish/Xian Gnosticism was first - then came traditional Xianity. I don't see how the encyclopedia article's claim necessarily presupposes that Christianity existed before Gnosticism. In fact, I'd be surprised if it did, since pre-Christian Gnosticism has been recognized by historians for a very long time (see, for example, this entry (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm) in the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia.

I'm more curious about your suggestion that Christian Gnosticism preceded "traditional" Christianity. Are you conducting original research into this?

[triadboy]

Originally posted by ceo_esq
I don't see how the encyclopedia article's claim necessarily presupposes that Christianity existed before Gnosticism. In fact, I'd be surprised if it did, since pre-Christian Gnosticism has been recognized by historians for a very long time (see, for example, this entry (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm) in the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia.

I'm more curious about your suggestion that Christian Gnosticism preceded "traditional" Christianity. Are you conducting original research into this?

It is possible that the Gospel of Thomas is as early as the New Testament Gospels; more likely, the work is based on the sayings of Jesus preserved in the Gospels and edited from a gnostic point of view.

I guess you could read this a couple of ways, but it seems to say there were 'sayings of Jesus' (or Q - where the Gospels got their sayings from), that were edited to a gnostic point of view.

I read The Jesus Mysteries and am now reading Jesus and the Lost Goddess. They contend Jewish/Xian Gnosticism was first and then came traditional xianity. Xianity gained control and suppressed gnosticism into oblivion. These are fun books to read and they jive with my continuing study of the subject (xianity). I believe Paul was an early Xian Gnostic. (Gnostics refer to Paul as 'The Great Gnostic'.) Paul refers to Sophia in 1 Corinthians. Sophia is the Greek word for wisdom, but also an important gnostic goddess - consort of Jesus.

It is strange that Paul doesn't know much about the life of Jesus (miracles, etc). His tale of Jesus is strikingly similar to the tale of Mithra. Paul is from Tarsus - a hotbed of Mithraism. Mithrasim is Persian gnosticism.

All this stuff just falls into place.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by triadboy


It is possible that the Gospel of Thomas is as early as the New Testament Gospels; more likely, the work is based on the sayings of Jesus preserved in the Gospels and edited from a gnostic point of view.

I guess you could read this a couple of ways, but it seems to say there were 'sayings of Jesus' (or Q - where the Gospels got their sayings from), that were edited to a gnostic point of view.

I read The Jesus Mysteries and am now reading Jesus and the Lost Goddess. They contend Jewish/Xian Gnosticism was first and then came traditional xianity. Xianity gained control and suppressed gnosticism into oblivion. These are fun books to read and they jive with my continuing study of the subject (xianity). I believe Paul was an early Xian Gnostic. (Gnostics refer to Paul as 'The Great Gnostic'.) Paul refers to Sophia in 1 Corinthians. Sophia is the Greek word for wisdom, but also an important gnostic goddess - consort of Jesus.

It is strange that Paul doesn't know much about the life of Jesus (miracles, etc). His tale of Jesus is strikingly similar to the tale of Mithra. Paul is from Tarsus - a hotbed of Mithraism. Mithrasim is Persian gnosticism.

All this stuff just falls into place.

Interesting, so there was no conversion on the road to damascus, other than having the bright idea of hijacking xianity for his own purposes.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Interesting, so there was no conversion on the road to damascus, other than having the bright idea of hijacking xianity for his own purposes.

I believe there was a Jewish Gnosticism already in existence. Pauls epiphany was to provide a different spin to include gentiles in the new Jewish mystery religion - Xian Gnosticism.

I always thought Paul was the author of xianity, but as it turns out it was the "Church Fathers" - who changed Pauls Gnostic vision into a Literalist 'history'.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by triadboy
I believe Paul was an early Xian Gnostic. (Gnostics refer to Paul as 'The Great Gnostic'.) Paul refers to Sophia in 1 Corinthians. Sophia is the Greek word for wisdom, but also an important gnostic goddess - consort of Jesus.
That older encyclopedia article says that Paul was attacking Gnosticism in 1 Tim. 6:20 when he refers to "Profane novelties of words and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called [antitheseis tes pseudonomou gnoseos – the antitheses of so-called Gnosis] which some professing have erred concerning the faith." Do you interpret that passage differently?

[triadboy]

Originally posted by ceo_esq

That older encyclopedia article says that Paul was attacking Gnosticism in 1 Tim. 6:20 when he refers to "Profane novelties of words and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called [antitheseis tes pseudonomou gnoseos – the antitheses of so-called Gnosis] which some professing have erred concerning the faith." Do you interpret that passage differently?

The 'Pastoral' letters, Timothy included, are late forgeries. No doubt penned by the glorious Church Fathers many years later. These are the letters that demonized Gnosticism. All of Pauls other letters are gnostic through and through.

Many of the early Literalist flock, had gnostic tendencies. So the church fathers had to convince the Literalist flock that gnosticism was bad by putting some words in Pauls mouth. Literalism won.