How do you fight?

[JAStewart]

I was just wondering what are your ways of combatting conspiracy theorists? I ask because for the second time in a month, I've been at uni and glanced over at someones computer only to see them watching a 9/11 video and so I tear a lil' bit of paper outta my notepad and just silently hand them a list of sites: 911 myths, this forum section, SLC, WTC7 lies paper, lolloosechange.

[gumboot]

I haven't had too much interaction - I've only met a few in the "real world". Generally I find they lack detailed knowledge and spew the usual garbage. After I've addressed a couple of their vague arguments with clear and specific information, they generally shut up.

The CTers here seem to be very much light weights who back out of a discussion with someone who actually knows anything.

-Gumboot

[jhunter1163]

I try to avoid the hard-core ones. There are none so blind as those who will not see, as they say. If I come across a fence-sitter, someone who's watching Loose Change or some stuff like that, I'll say, "Hmmm. That's an interesting theory. You know how you could confirm it? Go to www.911myths.com. They've got a lot of stuff there about the questions in this movie."

[stateofgrace]

I have honestly never met one in real life.

[Myriad]

I was just wondering what are your ways of combatting conspiracy theorists? I ask because for the second time in a month, I've been at uni and glanced over at someones computer only to see them watching a 9/11 video and so I tear a lil' bit of paper outta my notepad and just silently hand them a list of sites: 911 myths, this forum section, SLC, WTC7 lies paper, lolloosechange.

I'm just trying to visualize the scene, and imagine how the video-viewer might have interpreted it. By any chance were you wearing dark sunglasses and a hands-free cell phone headset at the time?

My appropach (partly because it seems to come up with people with whom I have to tread lightly, including clients), has generally been to send people four categories of links, with just two or three links per category: "Conspiracy sites" (LC Forum and whatever else is currently weirdest), "Debunking sites" (911myths, the viewer guide), "Official sources" (NIST, the Commission Report), and "The front Lines" (SLC and here). For people who I know are busy and only mildly curious, who will probably only visit one link and are likely to ignore a wall of text, I headline the list with the pointlesswasteoftime 9/11truth blog entry.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[PerryLogan]

I satirize and ridicule conspiracy beliefs on my cable TV show and sundry YouTube and Google Video clips. I use my own silliness to highlight their silliness. I like to point out the lameness of their reasoning on my website and elsewhere.

When it's time to get serious, I supply them with links to The Big Three debunking sites, which you all know:
http://www.911myths.com/
http://www.debunking911.com/
http://internetdetectives.biz/case/loose-change

If they need even more, I link them here. JREF is where I send folks who want high-powered, industrial-strength debunking of everything the conspiracy guys ever said.

And don't forget that all visitors and members of JREF are fighting the conspiracy nuts simply by coming here and learning. We comprise a worldwide community of skeptics and debunkers, who are helping each other by pooling talent, information, and resources.

Anyone who digs into the mountains of information in this forum will surely become a CT-smiting ninja in short order. JREF has also inspired people to do a lot of valuable research and to take personal action against the delusional madness of conspiracy theorists.

The conspiracy guys cower in fear at the mention of JREF, as well they should.

[brodski]

Double tap to the head and a shallow grave. It's the paperwork afterwards which is the biggest problem.

[PerryLogan]

But not so bad if you just don't do it.

[Quad4_72]

Only met one in real life. He introduced me to the 9/11 CT and turned me into a debunker. Good work man! Haha. My way of fighting them is taking everything from a skeptics point of view and calling them out on every bit of BS. I refer to a lot of different people who know more than me, which is what you SHOULD do when you are not an expert in a certain field. Luckily, CFs seem to be more of an internet species (have I heard that before?) and you don't usually have to deal with them in public.

[MarkyX]

I use facts.

[NoZed Avenger]

Monkey-style Kung Fu.

[JimBenArm]

I use facts.
SHILL!!!!111!!!eleventy-eleven!!!!

[JAStewart]

I use facts.

[LC forum] What? you're not welcome here! [/LC forum]

[Totovader]

I was just wondering what are your ways of combatting conspiracy theorists? I ask because for the second time in a month, I've been at uni and glanced over at someones computer only to see them watching a 9/11 video and so I tear a lil' bit of paper outta my notepad and just silently hand them a list of sites: 911 myths, this forum section, SLC, WTC7 lies paper, lolloosechange.

I honestly think the best way is to show them that their logic is fundamentally flawed. They need to understand why they're wrong- not simply that they are wrong- because they will just reject your assertion, even with evidence. This is why I confront conspiracists in a way similar to my 9/11 Conspiracy Challenge (http://youtube.com/watch?v=idgjL-tBGNg). Comparing evidence all day won't work: conspiracists won't admit that they're wrong, usually- and will usually just move right on to the next piece of crap until they finally come up with something you cannot easily explain or have never heard of- and then they claim victory... ignoring the fact that you've debunked everything up until that point and a conspiracy would make no sense.

We've had many a great debunkers show them undeniably that they're wrong- round after round... but they still repeat it. I think they believe they're right, and they will do whatever they can to maintain a theory which is self-defeating. The only way I can see around that is to actually show them that they are not being rational.

[Miragememories]

I honestly think the best way is to show them that their logic is fundamentally flawed. They need to understand why they're wrong- not simply that they are wrong- because they will just reject your assertion, even with evidence. This is why I confront conspiracists in a way similar to my 9/11 Conspiracy Challenge (http://youtube.com/watch?v=idgjL-tBGNg). Comparing evidence all day won't work: conspiracists won't admit that they're wrong, usually- and will usually just move right on to the next piece of crap until they finally come up with something you cannot easily explain or have never heard of- and then they claim victory... ignoring the fact that you've debunked everything up until that point and a conspiracy would make no sense.

We've had many a great debunkers show them undeniably that they're wrong- round after round... but they still repeat it. I think they believe they're right, and they will do whatever they can to maintain a theory which is self-defeating. The only way I can see around that is to actually show them that they are not being rational.

Everything I've read in this thread can just as easily be said of you skeptics. Just cut & paste CTer with JREF.

MM

[Myriad]

Everything I've read in this thread can just as easily be said of you skeptics. Just cut & paste CTer with JREF.


Well, naturally. Everything in this thread or in any thread anywhere can be said of anyone at all. For instance, you can find & replace CTer with Oprah Winfrey or Jesus or Harvey the Wonder Hamster. See? It's easy!

Whether something can be said isn't the issue. It's whether it's true when you say it!

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Totovader]

Everything I've read in this thread can just as easily be said of you skeptics. Just cut & paste CTer with JREF.

MM

You wish.

Problem is- you can't demonstrate this, because it isn't true.

That's why my challenge to conspiracists works for skeptics/scientists, but cannot be answered by a conspiracist without them arriving at an obvious contradiction. It's logic put into practice.

Go ahead, watch it. Watch how I can easily answer it. Watch how your peers struggle, fail, and then disappear.

Watch what happens when you try to answer it. Post your answer here or create a video as a response and you'll see. This is a battle for reason and logic- and you cannot simply will truth without them.

[uruk]

I encourage my students to ask questions about the conspiracy theories and engage in debate.
I use it as an exercise in critical thinking.

Critcal thinking helps in troubleshooting Computers.

[Unsecured Coins]

sarcasm. In heavy doses. Layered. With a light creme brule topping

[eeyore1954]

Gumboot says I haven't had too much interaction - I've only met a few in the "real world". Generally I find they lack detailed knowledge and spew the usual garbage. After I've addressed a couple of their vague arguments with clear and specific information, they generally shut up.

State of Grace says
I have honestly never met one in real life.

I have had the exact experience as State of Grace never met a true 9/11 was an inside job person in the flesh. I have met some who feel it wouldn't have happened if Bush had not been President. But because of incomptetence not foreknowledge or inside job.

I kniow this is not a professional study but
Why is this when 84% agree with them???
Why is this if even 10% believe with them??
IF I believed it I would be telling people everywhere because it was such aa heinous crime.

If such a large amount believe why have only a few hundred people registered for the conference in Phoenix . Maricopa county has a population of about 3,000,000.

If there are so many believers why is it the same small circle of people who are on the message boards.

[fuelair]

How do you fight?


To win - or damge the opponent as badly as possible. But then, fighting is not for fun. I fight very rarely, it is not a game.

[ConspiRaider]

When I see one, I throw a football at him and he instinctively catches it. I tackle him out of bounds. Then I blow my whistle to summon other skeptics and they pile on. Usually the guy is forced to punt.

[Unsecured Coins]

is it a "controlled" punt?

[jhunter1163]

Do they fall faster than free-fall if four guys are piling on them?

[Unsecured Coins]

the most important question of all...

does the 15 yard penalty for unneccesary roughness come into play?

[Hokulele]

... or a celebration penalty?

[Blackwell]

Do they fall faster than free-fall if four guys are piling on them?

Only if the four guys are wearing their NWO-issue rocket packs.

[Kiwiwriter]

My nephew Kevin, aged 15, swallowed all the nonsense about the plane that hit the Pentagon, believing it was a missile.

I had him sit down with a pal who is an appellate lawyer in the Solicitor General's Office. His boss is the SG and Mrs. SG died in the plane that hit the Pentagon.

He told Kevin bluntly that Mrs. SG (I'm sorry, I forgot her name) was very dead, died in the plane, died when it hit the Pentagon, and there was no way in the bowels of Hell that the SG would sacrifice his wife to an "inside job."

Kevin is a smart kid. He no longer holds those views.

[The Silver Shadow]

I tell them to call me when they have facts. My phone doesn't stop ringing with speculations...

[Rahne Everson]

I never had a confrontation with a 9/11 truther in real life, but I've had my fairshare of battles with moon landing hoaxers and evolution deniers. Generally they've gone like this:

CTist makes a claim (Like: "The moon landing was fake because the shadows of the astronaunts aren't parallel. That means there weredifferent lightsources like spotlights in a studio.")
Me points out the blatantly obvious ("If there were different light sources, why don't we several blurry shadows instead of two distinct ones of the astronauts?")
CTist ignores it, brings up another topic. ("Well, the flag waved in the breeze. There's no air on the moon, how could it flutter?")
Me points out the blatantly obvious again. ("You're assuming it 'waved.' If you look again you'll see it only moves after the astronauts touch it.")
CTist calls me a liar/disinformist/member of the Hitler Youth/sinner in the eyes of God/government plant-shill thing (all of which I've been called). ("[long string of cursing and reiterating of the previous topics]")

At this point I usually get bored go off and do something else because I have a life, whereas the CTist claims yet another victory against the forces of darkness. There have been the few I've managed to convert, but the resistance seems to outnumber them on my end of the front.

But really I've learned that the only person's ignorance that you can successfully eliminate is your own. So, in a way, by learning more about events like 9/11, I fight the rest of the truth movement by denying them another member.

[gumboot]

CTist makes a claim (Like: "The moon landing was fake because the shadows of the astronaunts aren't parallel. That means there weredifferent lightsources like spotlights in a studio.")

Me points out the blatantly obvious ("If there were different light sources, why don't we several blurry shadows instead of two distinct ones of the astronauts?")


Just to be picky, that's not the *best* response.

While multiple light sources will indeed produce multiple shadows from the one subject, the blurriness of a shadow is not a function of the number of lights, but the nature of it. Soft light produces soft fuzzy shadows, while hard light produces hard crisp shadows. This is a factor of the ratio relationship between the light source, the subject, and the surface upon which the shadow appears.

The larger the light source, the softer the light source, thus the more blurry the shadow.

In addition, the closer the subject is to the light source, the blurrier the shadow.

Finally, the further the subject is from the shadow projection surface, the blurrier the shadow.

Now, in the case of the sun, we have an enormous light source, however this size is cancelled out by the extreme distance it is from us. Relative to the sun, the object (a man) is practically hard against the projection surface (the moon or earth) thus the shadow is very hard.

In contrast, an aircraft flying above in the sky is further from the surface and thus generates a more blurred shadow.

Likewise, on an overcast day the cloud acts as diffusion. As a result the light source becomes the entire sky - a very large soft light. Hence on an over cast day shadows are very blurred (often to the extent that they seem to disappear).

In regards to parallel light, this is not a product of multiple light sources at all. As you rightly pointed out, multiple light sources generate multiple shadows. Non parallel shadows are generated because of proximity to the light source. The shadows cast by the sun appear parallel simply because it is so far away.

In contrast, the lights used in, say, a film shoot, are much closer to the subject thus they do not cast parallel shadows.

-Gumboot

[Rahne Everson]

Just to be picky, that's not the *best* response.

Pickiness is fun. :) Thanks for the info.

Yeah, I debated on using "blurry" in my example. I really haven't been using my degree from Phil Plait's bad astronomy school nearly enough over the past several months. Dang truthers!

[stilicho]

At first, upon reading these responses, I was a bit surprised by the number of people saying they've never encountered (or very rarely encountered) conspiracy theorists in real life. I realised a couple of things:

#1] What is a 'conspiracy theorist'?

My definition might be broader than most. Generally, I consider those who reject books and education (especially when they substitute what they call 'logic' and what they find on the internet for those other tools) to be CT'rs. These are people who generally don't read much and trust their own intuition over science and the liberal arts. They are likely to possess strong personal beliefs. They may not believe entirely that 9/11 was an 'inside job' but their feeling is that somebody must have known something and failed to act. These people will magnify the significance of the infamous AUG 06 memo, for example, at the expense of the onerous task of reading the whole 9/11 Commission Report.

#2] Anti-Americanism is a stronger influence in the opinions of those outside the USA.

Since I am not an American, I am exposed constantly to people who combine an abiding mistrust of the United States with a suspicion that the White House or the Pentagon could have been "in on it". These people are likely to idolise Michael Moore and are usually what I consider left-of-centre. Some of these will begin to delve into on-line conspiracy theories and meld them into their vision of 'evil America'.

#3] An antiwar stance is sometimes the embryo of a conspiracy theory.

I've met lots of people who feel that, without the 'evil Halliburton', there would be no war (in Iraq, Afghanistan, or elsewhere). Or they substitute 'Big Oil'. Rarely are people named in these accusations, but there's something about the US Vice-President's sheer demeanour that attracts condemnation. He scowls similarly to a TV show bad guy. Regardless of what you tell these people, that Halliburton is a supply and services company that would make money on its contracts with the US military whether there's a war or not, or that 'Big Oil' lost billions or trillions due to sanctions against Saddam, they cannot uncouple their desire for 'world peace' with easy straw men like those mentioned.

---

None of these definitions describe the hard-core nutters you're likely to see at LC or other on-line forums. In fact, they may never visit forums, but simply watch YouTube or, perhaps read and trust the likes of Greg Palast over any other opinions. But they do represent a substantial faction of prospective harder-core CT'rs. They are likely to treat 9/11 conspiracy theories as equal-in-value to the 'official story', which I consider to be nearly as dangerous as believing CT's wholesale.

I have generally tried to explain that these 'theories' are not equal in value and that's met with mixed success.

[Firestone]

To elaborate on what stilicho wrote:

I've yet to meet my first 9/11-CTist in real life.

On the Internet (i'm talking about Belgian political forums) I've known them for almost three years.

In the early days, it was like stilicho wrote. The leftists, "anti-American" people more or less bought into the 9/11-CT because it suited their political agenda.

Once the debunking started in earnest, the 9/11-CT believers where reduced to the hardcore: essentially the naive souls who believe almost anything, and the "anti-zionists". The leftists quietly left the field, a few of them actively helped (and help) debunk the 9/11-CT.
This was due to our excellent debunking (just kidding), but mainly to the 9/11-CT believers own stupidity. Once they started about NWO, S&B, Alex Jones, Protocols of the Elders of Zion, ..., they lost the left.

The 9/11-CT believers that appeared recently are all either recent converts ("I've seen LC and it convinced me"-types) who generally don't stay for long or people with an "anti-zionist"-agenda trying to get that particular message across.

[gumboot]

At first, upon reading these responses, I was a bit surprised by the number of people saying they've never encountered (or very rarely encountered) conspiracy theorists in real life. I realised a couple of things:

I have generally tried to explain that these 'theories' are not equal in value and that's met with mixed success.


Excellent post. I meet these sort of people all the time. New Zealand has a long history of disliking Americans, dating back to WW2. Also I work in the film industry which is, IMHO, heavily saturated with woo.

Funnily enough, often the more sensible people are the actors, whilst those in the technical trades such as lighting or grips (some of whom have technical qualifications) are often woo-ish.

Most of the woo is of the mundane sort, and given that I'm usually one of the youngest on the crew, I don't have much standing in debunking such issues (the film industry here is big on hierachy based on how long you have been "in"). I tend to ignore such discussions.

Sometimes, on one or two matters I have a pretty solid knowledge of, I'll correct people and their misconceptions. More generally I tend to just make it perfectly clear that I don't believe that sort of stuff.

Once on a film set I ran into a hard core 9/11 truther, and I was unrelenting... :D He wasn't convinced, but promised to email me to get some more info. Needless to say, I never received an email.

The general "anti-Americanism" is often hardest of all to combat. First off, from a given world view, America has done a lot to frame it in a negative light. Secondly, most New Zealanders are only exposed to Americans through the media and through your rich tourists. As you can imagine the struggling low budget NZ film industry doesn't think very highly of the US Media/Film megolith. And the rich tourists that come here are hardly fantastic ambassadors.

There's so much misconception it seems an impossible task to combat it. Especially when any correction immediately has you labelled as a war mongering right wing facist psychopath.

What's really sad is the mind-blowing level of ignorance. Most NZers of this ilk constantly criticise the ignorance of Americans - citing things like random street interviews where Americans are asked the location of various cities and countries.

Ignoring the gross subjective nature of such interviews (we only get shown the most absurb responses), most New Zealanders are equally ignorant of our OWN country, failing to locate towns and cities on a national map. And the lack of understanding of the states here is shocking. That's one thing I really appreciate about this forum. I've learned an enormous amount about the United States - both its structure and organisation, and the American psyche and world view. These are things never made available to us in New Zealand.

There's still lots of things I really don't like about the USA, and I can't say I'd ever want to live there, but unlike most New Zealanders I understand the REASON things are the way they are in the USA. And I recognise that many Americans probably feel the same way about my country.

Ack. Why did this turn into a study on the USA?????

-Gumboot

[pvt1863]

I've also never met a conspiracy theorist in real life. But I guess that isn't surprising since I'm an engineer and interact very little with non-engineers.

Since the theories promoted by CTs fall flat on their face when even a small amount of science is applied, most of my acquaintances are immune to their lunacy.

[firecoins]

I have a friend who staunchly believes in JFK conspiracy theories.

I see I wasted by 1600th post on him now as well.

[Kiwiwriter]

Excellent post. I meet these sort of people all the time. New Zealand has a long history of disliking Americans, dating back to WW2. Also I work in the film industry which is, IMHO, heavily saturated with woo.

...

The general "anti-Americanism" is often hardest of all to combat. First off, from a given world view, America has done a lot to frame it in a negative light. Secondly, most New Zealanders are only exposed to Americans through the media and through your rich tourists. As you can imagine the struggling low budget NZ film industry doesn't think very highly of the US Media/Film megolith. And the rich tourists that come here are hardly fantastic ambassadors.

There's so much misconception it seems an impossible task to combat it. Especially when any correction immediately has you labelled as a war mongering right wing facist psychopath.

What's really sad is the mind-blowing level of ignorance. Most NZers of this ilk constantly criticise the ignorance of Americans - citing things like random street interviews where Americans are asked the location of various cities and countries.

Ignoring the gross subjective nature of such interviews (we only get shown the most absurb responses), most New Zealanders are equally ignorant of our OWN country, failing to locate towns and cities on a national map. And the lack of understanding of the states here is shocking. That's one thing I really appreciate about this forum. I've learned an enormous amount about the United States - both its structure and organisation, and the American psyche and world view. These are things never made available to us in New Zealand.

There's still lots of things I really don't like about the USA, and I can't say I'd ever want to live there, but unlike most New Zealanders I understand the REASON things are the way they are in the USA. And I recognise that many Americans probably feel the same way about my country.

Ack. Why did this turn into a study on the USA?????

-Gumboot

Having lived for three years in New Zealand, where I was anything but rich, this takes me back.

I had to give tours of the US Antarctic base in Christchurch to local groups, mostly kids. The kids heard my Bronx accent and asked me about their three favorite things about America: Los Angeles gangs, rap musicians, and NBA basketball stars...and had I ever been one or known one?

That was America to them.

Occasionally I dealt with anti-nuclear protesters, who were convinced our Air Mobility Command flights to and from New Zealand and Australia were hauling nuclear weapons. Actually, they were dragging around furniture to and from bases for people moving. They didn't like American policy, but were not angry at Americans.

Kathy worked in the community as an RSPCA inspector, and everyone loved her. She had the New Jersey accent, loved dogs, a great sense of humor, and got on with people. Any time she had to go to a house where someone was older than about 50, they'd hear her voice and thank her profusely for winning the Battle of the Coral Sea and the Battle of Guadalcanal...in 1942.

Kathy didn't even know what they were. I had to explain them.

When my unit did parades for V-E Day, V-J Day, ANZAC Day, and so on, our sailors would get surrounded by aging men and women who would tell the sailors how they served on HMNZS Leander at Kolombangara or flew P-40s from Guadalcanal. The poor sailors, being 20 years old, would be stupefied. So would their officers, who didn't care, and because I was interested in the subject, the sailors would happily dump the old guys on me, and we'd talk about Kolombangara and P-40s while the sailors scuttled off to hoist a beer or chase a girl.

New Zealanders knew a lot about the United States, thanks to TV. But they didn't know that much. One kid asked me if the Concorde ever landed in New York (Air France was doing a Pacific charter tour and the big bird was in ChCh). I told him it arrived in New York three to five times a day. The kid goggled.

Another kid asked if we had "Sky TV" and its four cable channels in America. I told him we had 75 channels and nothing on. He was amazed. When our New Zealand pal's kids came to America, we flipped on our tv to the cable channel, and they were awed.

Some New Zealanders know their own past and their country. Being an outdoors people, they know their country. Being sports-minded, they know about the All Blacks and where they're playing. But they're vague on Charles Hazlitt Upham, Minqar Qaim, and many don't even know that 37 New Zealanders died in Vietnam alongside the Grunts. They're beginning to learn... attendance at ANZAC Day Dawn Services kept growing every year when I was in Christchurch, for example.

But I'll say this...I love New Zealand. Kats and I wanted to stay in Christchurch. It had clear skies, very little crime, well-behaved kids, beautiful parks, friendly people, no terrorists, no crowds, no environmental waste. I got married there, my daughter was born there, I had my first home there. I'm a New York native, but Christchurch is my adopted home town.

[Arus808]

I have honestly never met one in real life.

me neither. they only seem to lurk / hide on the internet.

though, those that have said something about 911 (in passing) ; their views lean to why the FDNY/PD guys haven't been compensated for their illnesses related to the 9/11 clean up. And many have not even heard of the conspiracy theories at all. and when told them what kind of theories are being pushed; they think its a load of crap.

[The Demon's Head]

I use facts.

A truther's reply to that would be. "Don't give me the facts, I want the truth."

:D ;)

[Darth Rotor]

But I'll say this...I love New Zealand. Kats and I wanted to stay in Christchurch. It had clear skies, very little crime, well-behaved kids, beautiful parks, friendly people, no terrorists, no crowds, no environmental waste. I got married there, my daughter was born there, I had my first home there. I'm a New York native, but Christchurch is my adopted home town.
VXE 6?

DR

[Totovader]

I have only met a couple of them in real life- nothing too exciting. With one exception, they were friends of friends, and I didn't want to have to embarass them... :)

One time, though- I did follow a car* into the parking lot of a local store. On the bumper was a sticker that said "9/11 was an inside job". The only one I've ever seen around here, in fact. I mean- they're nutty around here- but not tinfoil hat nutty. Anyway, I was all stoked to talk to a real one in person and I got out of my car and walked up to them.

Out steps some teeny bopper girl, yanks her kid out of her car, walks over to a truck that was obviously waiting for her- hands the kid to a young guy slightly older than her and says "she puked all over the place".

Perhaps I'm generalizing in my thoughts- but I made the assumption that she had nothing to offer in the way of a decent argument, and I turned around and walked away.




*By "following" I did not mean "stalking" or "going out of my way"; I meant that I was behind the individual as she was entering the parking lot.

[Kiwiwriter]

VXE 6?

DR


The squadron we supported. Half the year they were with us in ChCh, where they had their hangars and mechanics, the other half they were in Port Hueneme, California.

They lived in the hotel next to us...they took up an entire wing. Very lucrative deal for the hotel, which was about the level of a good Holiday Inn, swimming pool, bar, restaurant.

The amusing part was their success with local women, and the results thereof. Every now and then I'd get a call from someone in town, trying to track down his or her father, who was always "a pilot" with VXE-6, named "Ted" or "Fred," who came from "a large city" like Los Angeles or Chicago, and did we have a record of him?

I had to resist the urge to say, "The biggest lie told that evening was not, 'Oh, darling, you're the greatest, I love you,' or 'No, babe, I'm not married, I'll call you,' I'm afraid."

Some day they should build a statue in Christchurch showing a US Navy sailor strangling a New Zealand girl (who is strangling him back), with the following caption of explanation:

Sailor: "What do you mean, you're pregnant?"
Girl: "What do you mean, you've got a wife in San Diego?"

[gumboot]

I don't think that's so much a comment on the prowess of the American guys as it is a comment on the girls in Christchurch... ;)

They have quite the reputation.

-Gumboot

[pomeroo]

[=Miragememories;2356375]Everything I've read in this thread can just as easily be said of you skeptics. Just cut & paste CTer with JREF.

MM



No, it can't.

Yes, you really don't understand.

[RolandtheGunslinger]

If they need even more, I link them here. JREF is where I send folks who want high-powered, industrial-strength debunking of everything the conspiracy guys ever said.

And don't forget that all visitors and members of JREF are fighting the conspiracy nuts simply by coming here and learning. We comprise a worldwide community of skeptics and debunkers, who are helping each other by pooling talent, information, and resources.

Anyone who digs into the mountains of information in this forum will surely become a CT-smiting ninja in short order. JREF has also inspired people to do a lot of valuable research and to take personal action against the delusional madness of conspiracy theorists.

The conspiracy guys cower in fear at the mention of JREF, as well they should.

I have been living a CT family member's nightmare for almost 9 months now. My brother is a "die hard, Alex Jones brainwashed, vaccine fearing, 9/11 was an inside job, NWO, illuminati mind control via cell towers, american concentration camp" CT'er. For the last 8 1/2 months, he has berated, harrassed, criticized, and strongarmed his family and most of his friends. He calls us all "asleep, dumb, thick skulled, sheeple". He categorizes his disrespect and utter cruelty as TOUGH love. In reference to the Matrix, he says "you just cant handle the red pill can you?"

With that said, about 2 weeks ago, my wife and I stumbled onto Perry's website about CT'ers and Alex Jones and the <b>first twinges of HOPE started flowing through my nerves! </b>We read for a long time, and I decided to email Perry. Much to my surprise he responded (not many people respond these days) and gave me the links listed above and the link to the JREF website.

These websites are FILLED with REASONABLE information. Plenty of it too!

Now I am systematically studying, documenting, and information gathering. Ammunition stockpiling! Armor fabricating! THANK YOU PERRY! THANK YOU JREF!!!

Maybe...just maybe....I can get my brainwashed brother back. Until then, I will fight for his life and my parents' sanity with the tools that have been generously given to me.

Anyone else out there related to a Gung Ho CT'er?

[T.A.M.]

Not related, but have a friend who is one.

I hope you are able to get your brother back. It will be a LONG, HARD, ANGUISHING battle, trust me. If he is as hard core as you say he is it will take more than the facts, it will take true perseverance on your part, and you WILL HAVE TO KNOW the facts inside and out, not just be able to spue off a few tidbits.

Welcome to the forum Roland. There are plenty of kind people around here to help you with what you are looking for.

TAM:)

[gumboot]

Welcome,

And good luck with your brother. I think a bit part of the CT business is emotional reinforcement from others. It will be the agreement of other CTers (perhaps friends, perhaps online) that is keeping him going. I am sure that over time the counter-pressure of yourself and the rest of your family will overcome and be victorious! :D

Providing the said same information to other family members and friends may also speed up the process.

-Gumboot

[T.A.M.]

Roland:

Gumboot is one of those kind people who knows a hell of a lot about all this stuff, and can help.

TAM:)

[PerryLogan]

My brother is a "die hard, Alex Jones brainwashed, vaccine fearing, 9/11 was an inside job, NWO, illuminati mind control via cell towers, american concentration camp" CT'er....Now I am systematically studying, documenting, and information gathering. Ammunition stockpiling! Armor fabricating! THANK YOU PERRY! THANK YOU JREF!!!Welcome, Roland! Glad to see you here.

You have our sympathy for your situation. If knowledge can help you or your wayward brother, there is plenty of it here.

But watch out for the silliness. The threads here sometimes have a tendency to become silly.

[gumboot]

Welcome, Roland! Glad to see you here.

You have our sympathy for your situation. If knowledge can help you or your wayward brother, there is plenty of it here.

But watch out for the silliness. The threads here sometimes have a tendency to become silly.


[monty python voice]Nothing wrong with being silly.[/monty python voice]

-Gumboot

[stateofgrace]

I have been living a CT family member's nightmare for almost 9 months now. My brother is a "die hard, Alex Jones brainwashed, vaccine fearing, 9/11 was an inside job, NWO, illuminati mind control via cell towers, american concentration camp" CT'er. For the last 8 1/2 months, he has berated, harrassed, criticized, and strongarmed his family and most of his friends. He calls us all "asleep, dumb, thick skulled, sheeple". He categorizes his disrespect and utter cruelty as TOUGH love. In reference to the Matrix, he says "you just cant handle the red pill can you?"

With that said, about 2 weeks ago, my wife and I stumbled onto Perry's website about CT'ers and Alex Jones and the <b>first twinges of HOPE started flowing through my nerves! </b>We read for a long time, and I decided to email Perry. Much to my surprise he responded (not many people respond these days) and gave me the links listed above and the link to the JREF website.

These websites are FILLED with REASONABLE information. Plenty of it too!

Now I am systematically studying, documenting, and information gathering. Ammunition stockpiling! Armor fabricating! THANK YOU PERRY! THANK YOU JREF!!!

Maybe...just maybe....I can get my brainwashed brother back. Until then, I will fight for his life and my parents' sanity with the tools that have been generously given to me.

Anyone else out there related to a Gung Ho CT'er?

Hi and welcome, I am yet to meet a truther in real life so I cannot really imagine how difficult it must be for you and your family. I hope all turns out well for you and hopefully you will be able to shine some light into the dark corners.

There are many people here who have researched various aspects of 911 fully and extensively and there are excellent links to well establish debunking sites at the top of the page. Most of these sites offer in-depth debunking of many of the popular conspiracies.

I personally believe that the appeal of the conspiracies is simply a form of anti establishment rebellion that eventually most people will simply grow out off. Of course there will always be the real die hards, the leaders of this movement, that will continue to fuel this, these people are beyond the pale, they are simply beyond any form of rational logic. It is easy for people like this to simply spew rubbish onto the net and kid on that anybody who does not agree with their theories are simply shills or slaves to the system. The reality is that most people who oppose these theories are neither. I personally do not care of Bush and co and really don’t support what has happened since 911, nor do I believe they handled the Intel beforehand very well.

This said, I have seen nothing and I mean nothing that has convinced me of anything the conspirators try to promote. They always claim that science is on their side, they always claim they are simply asking questions. They are not; they are accusing perfectly innocent people of mass murder.

There is no end of conspiracies about 911 and sometimes it literally is ¨wack a mole¨. As soon as one is put to bed another one pops up to take its place. This is eventually put to bed and then up pops another or the original one.

It is worth pointed out that NIST is accepted across the globe by every single Institute of professional engineers. They are not one that has openly opposed what they say about the Towers. The scholars as they like to call themselves have simply hijacked this most dreadful event and use it to fuel their own egos.

Anyway welcome and I really hope you do find what you need here and I hope you can convince your brother that the reality is quite simple. That being the US was really attacked; the US is actually the victim in all this.

[gumboot]

I think there's one thing I find truly astounding about the 9/11 conspiracy theories...

In an event like this, I'd expect there to be a few anomolies and dead ends - little details that support the conspiracy theoriests. Tiny cracks they can dig their greedy little claws into.

Yet there isn't.

It's not a case of the key claims not holding up. Nothing holds up. Every single tiny little minute claim turns out to be false. Every spec of evidence is either wrongly interpreted, or a total fabrication.

It's mind blowing that they can generate theories from such a staggering lack of evidence.

I mean, even when I look into alternative theories for other events, there's usually a couple of little details that kind of support them. The 9/11 conspiracy theories aren't just a house of cards. They're built on a foundation of smoke and water.

-Gumboot

[RolandtheGunslinger]

T.A.M. and gumboot, thank you both very much for the much needed support. I'll definitely be the proverbial brain picker from time to time (take note gumboot). I know how hard it is going to be but your responses give me new fuel. Its been an exhausting 9 months. I've been hoping that someone doesn't tell him to drink some kool-aid.

T.A.M., have you had any luck with your friend?

[T.A.M.]

Here is a list of topics that your brother will likely use to prove his story. Take them, look each of them up here, and at 911myths.com, and get all the info on them you can:

Topic = WTC Attacks/Collapse
1. WTCs were brought down by "Controlled Demolition" ie. explosives were used.
2. Marvin Bush, related to the president, was head of security at the WTC just prior to 9/11
3. No steel framed skyscraper has ever come down solely due to fire prior to 9/11.
4. People exiting the WTCs on 9/11 heard explosions, so there must have been explosives planted in the buildings.
5. the collapses alone cannot by themselves explain the pulverization of all the concrete in the WTCs
6. Fighterjets were flying over NYC and could have stopped the Airliners before they struck the WTCs.
7. The fires in the WTCs were small and spread out.
9. There was molten STEEL in the remains at GZ, proving the use of THERMITE.

Topic=WTC 7
1. WTC7 housed secret information, so the Neoncons behind 9/11 had it purposely destroyed.
2. Larry Silverstein told the Fire Captain to "Pull" the building, meaning to have it brought down by Demolition.
3. Larry Silverstein made hundreds of millions off the collapse of this building and the twin towers
4. Because it was not hit by a plane, yet it collapsed, WTC7 had to have been brought down by CD.

Topic = Pentagon Attack
1. American Airlines Flight 77 never hit the Pentagon.
2. The downed light poles were planted, like the plane parts, by the USG who were behind the attacks.
3. The plane that everyone saw allegedly hit the Pentagon, was actually a military plane that launched a missile as it approached, then FLEW OVER the Pentagon, and then out of sight.
4. The hole in the outer wall of the Pentagon was too small to have been made by the crashing Airliner.
5. No remains of the hijackers were identified at the Pentagon site.

Topic=Flight 93
1. The calls could not have been made from the flight, as cellphone calls are impossible at cruizing altitude.
2. The calls were fabricated using voice morphing tech and actors.
3. Flight 93 was shot down by US military
4. There was no plane debris, and hence no plane crashed...at Shanksville.

Topic=Al-Qaeda/Terrorists
1. Some of the hijackers are still alive.
2. Osama Bin Laden denied he was involved in 9/11 initially, and only later in a fake tape confessed.
3. The military trained the hijackers to fly
4. The hijackers were just patsies
5. The ISI (Pakistani Intelligence) was funding the hijackers

Topic=Forwarning
1. The jewish community knew of the attacks before hand
2. Govt officials including John Ashcroft, and DF mayor Willie Brown were given warnings of the attacks, and hence did not travel via commerical flights that day.
3. The government knew where, when, and how 9/11 was going to happen.


Once again, the above is a list of topics and views that your brother will likely use, or has already used to try convince you. Look them up and be ready to argue the facts with him...You may need to give him some tough love...

TAM

[T.A.M.]

Roland:

My friend hasnt been trying to convince my other friends or family, so after an initial attempt to sway him back to reason, I simply left it as a "difference of opinions". We still talk, and are still friends.

TAM:)

[hubbub2]

I just kick them in the 'nads...amazing how fast that ends the debate.

[gumboot]

A useful thing is to learn the CT-killer for each topic - that is the one detail that makes their entire house of cards fall down. Here's some examples:

WTC7 - the eyewitness statements by FDNY. Either they are telling the truth, and the building was severly damaged and on fire, ready to fall, or the FDNY helped destroy the building.

NORAD - NORAD's mission pre 9/11 was to patrol the ADIZ - a narrow band around the outside of the USA. NORAD had never prior to 9/11 intercepted an aircraft inside USA airspace (The Payne Stewart learjet was not intercepted by NORAD but by other USAF aircraft).

Pentagon/AA77 - hundreds of people witnessed the event. They SAW the airliner hit The Pentagon. Many specifically remember an American Airlines aircraft.

WTC collapse - FDNY had suspicions of structural integrity from an early stage and ordered evac of WTC1. NYPD aviation unit reported bowing of exterior columns and predicted "eminent collapse".

UA93 - FDR reports all systems normal at time of impact.

Al Qaeda/Terrorists - Death of all hijackers save one has been confirmed by governments of their countries and by immediate family members (family members of one refuse to confirm death as they are rabidly anti-US themselves). Martyr tapes of hijackers exist.

These, I believe, are the key facts. Cling to these like a rabid dog. It is not enough that a CTer provides their own evidence. They MUST be able to explain each of the above facts.

-Gumboot

[stateofgrace]

I just kick them in the 'nads...amazing how fast that ends the debate.

I should imagine it does. Equally so Ronald, once armed with facts, you could just ask your brother what he thinks happened. Just a summary of the events leading up to 911, the day itself and then beyond. Many cters simply fold when they are faced with the enormity of what they are suggesting, the impossible number of people it would take to carry out and conceal such a massive conspiracy.

The conspiracy is so massively complex and relies on so many people keeping quiet, it simply would never work, let alone get off the ground.

If that fails you could also remind him that he is actually crediting the current administration with the ability to do something no other administration has ever done, that being fool the entire planet for over five years. Secrets like this rarely stay secret for long.

[stilicho]

These are all great help to people who know (or are related to) CT'rs.

Most of the on-line types who think UBL was 'invented' some time around SEP 12, 2001, also are unaware that he was named an unindicted co-conspirator in the 1993 WTC bombing. That doesn't mean they think he did it, but the fellow has been among a number of individuals wishing to do harm to the US and its interests.

My closest relationship to a CT'r is a half-uncle who is a Scientologist. He isn't actually all that weird but I wouldn't send him money.

[stilicho]

As a post-script, I have gone to Perry's site and I find it most refreshing. It's great to see a sense of humour about all this. In fact, I find the grinding seriousness of the CT'rs somewhere between paranoia and tastelessness: ('F***! First they killed the bond traders at the WTC! Now Dick Cheney's gonna put us all in FEMA camps!!!!!')

Does anyone know a CT'r with a sense of humour? I mean, apart from being accidentally funny or merely laughable.

[RolandtheGunslinger]

But watch out for the silliness. The threads here sometimes have a tendency to become silly.


Greetings Perry. Thanks for directing me this way. What a wealth of information!.

I must say that the comic relief has been cathartic.

[RolandtheGunslinger]

Every spec of evidence is either wrongly interpreted, or a total fabrication.This I can definitely see in my CT'er.

It's mind blowing that they can generate theories from such a staggering lack of evidence. His theories go beyond just 9/11. The NWO takeover is already here! ACK!

The 9/11 conspiracy theories aren't just a house of cards. They're built on a foundation of smoke and water.And the walls are funhouse mirrors.

[RolandtheGunslinger]

I should imagine it does. Equally so Ronald, once armed with facts, you could just ask your brother what he thinks happened. Just a summary of the events leading up to 911, the day itself and then beyond. Many cters simply fold when they are faced with the enormity of what they are suggesting, the impossible number of people it would take to carry out and conceal such a massive conspiracy.

The conspiracy is so massively complex and relies on so many people keeping quiet, it simply would never work, let alone get off the ground.

If that fails you could also remind him that he is actually crediting the current administration with the ability to do something no other administration has ever done, that being fool the entire planet for over five years. Secrets like this rarely stay secret for long.Thanks for the golden information. Now the trick is convincing him to listen to me long enough to ask these questions. He is of the Alex Jones school, so getting a word in edge-wise is a complete ankle sprain.

[RolandtheGunslinger]

I just kick them in the 'nads...amazing how fast that ends the debate. Only a temporary fix. 'Nad atrophy is only a catalyst for more outrageous stories. Hell...the cell towers made me do it. I think a good cerebral pummeling would be more sufficient.

[RolandtheGunslinger]

Here is a list of topics that your brother will likely use to prove his story. Take them, look each of them up here, and at 911myths.com, and get all the info on them you can:

Topic = WTC Attacks/Collapse
1. WTCs were brought down by "Controlled Demolition" ie. explosives were used.
2. Marvin Bush, related to the president, was head of security at the WTC just prior to 9/11
3. No steel framed skyscraper has ever come down solely due to fire prior to 9/11.
4. People exiting the WTCs on 9/11 heard explosions, so there must have been explosives planted in the buildings.
5. the collapses alone cannot by themselves explain the pulverization of all the concrete in the WTCs
6. Fighterjets were flying over NYC and could have stopped the Airliners before they struck the WTCs.
7. The fires in the WTCs were small and spread out.
9. There was molten STEEL in the remains at GZ, proving the use of THERMITE.

Topic=WTC 7
1. WTC7 housed secret information, so the Neoncons behind 9/11 had it purposely destroyed.
2. Larry Silverstein told the Fire Captain to "Pull" the building, meaning to have it brought down by Demolition.
3. Larry Silverstein made hundreds of millions off the collapse of this building and the twin towers
4. Because it was not hit by a plane, yet it collapsed, WTC7 had to have been brought down by CD.

Topic = Pentagon Attack
1. American Airlines Flight 77 never hit the Pentagon.
2. The downed light poles were planted, like the plane parts, by the USG who were behind the attacks.
3. The plane that everyone saw allegedly hit the Pentagon, was actually a military plane that launched a missile as it approached, then FLEW OVER the Pentagon, and then out of sight.
4. The hole in the outer wall of the Pentagon was too small to have been made by the crashing Airliner.
5. No remains of the hijackers were identified at the Pentagon site.

Topic=Flight 93
1. The calls could not have been made from the flight, as cellphone calls are impossible at cruizing altitude.
2. The calls were fabricated using voice morphing tech and actors.
3. Flight 93 was shot down by US military
4. There was no plane debris, and hence no plane crashed...at Shanksville.

Topic=Al-Qaeda/Terrorists
1. Some of the hijackers are still alive.
2. Osama Bin Laden denied he was involved in 9/11 initially, and only later in a fake tape confessed.
3. The military trained the hijackers to fly
4. The hijackers were just patsies
5. The ISI (Pakistani Intelligence) was funding the hijackers

Topic=Forwarning
1. The jewish community knew of the attacks before hand
2. Govt officials including John Ashcroft, and DF mayor Willie Brown were given warnings of the attacks, and hence did not travel via commerical flights that day.
3. The government knew where, when, and how 9/11 was going to happen.


Once again, the above is a list of topics and views that your brother will likely use, or has already used to try convince you. Look them up and be ready to argue the facts with him...You may need to give him some tough love...

TAM

You and Gumboot both have given me so much to work with. I have been piecing things together myself for a few months, but it pales in comparison to the information I have gathered here in the last couple of days. My hats off to you both.

[RolandtheGunslinger]

As a post-script, I have gone to Perry's site and I find it most refreshing. It's great to see a sense of humour about all this. Roger that, Ghost Rider. In fact, I find the grinding seriousness of the CT'rs somewhere between paranoia and tastelessness: ('F***! First they killed the bond traders at the WTC! Now Dick Cheney's gonna put us all in FEMA camps!!!!!')Hmm...yep...the FEMA camps thing is a BIG part of his "theory". Find me one reasonable person that believes a buildup of NATO troops, set to take control of 300,000,000 American people, is going to be easy to hide? Laughable.

[Unfit4Command]

I've only talked to a one and he wasn't educated at all.
I just asked for facts, not assumptions. He never really could debate me, his favorite line was "A Boeing would do more damage, it was a missile." Didn't even know what kind of Boeing struck the Pentagon, really sad...

[stilicho]

Roger that, Ghost Rider. Hmm...yep...the FEMA camps thing is a BIG part of his "theory". Find me one reasonable person that believes a buildup of NATO troops, set to take control of 300,000,000 American people, is going to be easy to hide? Laughable.

Correction, Roland.

Conspiracists faithfully believe that it will be UN troops herding you all into FEMA camps.

Think about that the next time you see a UNICEF kid at your door on Hallowe'en.

[stilicho]

Topic=WTC 7
1. WTC7 housed secret information, so the Neoncons behind 9/11 had it purposely destroyed.

TAM

One of my favourites.

WTC7 housed the 'secret' SEC files (ostensibly the only ones in existence) on Enron, Global Crossing and WorldCom. Larry "Pull It" Silverstein had it destroyed so none of the indictments would be pursued.

Wrong.

People are going to jail anyhow over those corporate crimes.

Those neocons are just the gang that can't shoot straight. First they kill good Republicans at Cantor Fitzgerald and then they can't save Bernie Ebbers from a 25-year prison term.

[stateofgrace]

Thanks for the golden information. Now the trick is convincing him to listen to me long enough to ask these questions. He is of the Alex Jones school, so getting a word in edge-wise is a complete ankle sprain.

Ha,this one is easy, simply say `I am a JREFer.........`I should imagine this would get his attention.;) ;)

[RolandtheGunslinger]

Correction, Roland.

Conspiracists faithfully believe that it will be UN troops herding you all into FEMA camps.

Think about that the next time you see a UNICEF kid at your door on Hallowe'en.


Thanks for the correction. I would have said that to him; he would have picked it apart.

[laughing uncontrollably] kidsforUNtakeover.com[/laughing uncontrollably]

[RolandtheGunslinger]

Ha,this one is easy, simply say `I am a JREFer.........`I should imagine this would get his attention.;) ;)
If he doesn't know about JREF, he will! However, I'm not going to mention it to him yet (more ammo first), as he will come here with a closed mind, berate everyone and get suspended. The suspension will be blamed on the NWO and Illuminati. Its part of their big plan to keep his "mini Alex Jones" butt repressed and keep him from posting information from the "secret" websites he and Alex Jones are privvy to.

[RolandtheGunslinger]

I've only talked to a one and he wasn't educated at all.
I just asked for facts, not assumptions. He never really could debate me, his favorite line was "A Boeing would do more damage, it was a missile." Didn't even know what kind of Boeing struck the Pentagon, really sad...
It becomes quite absurd doesn't it? Each day brings a new level of confidence for me as I information gather. First order of business is to gather information from many of the wonderful sites debunking "Loose Change". Thats what got my CT'er started in the beginning of July 2006.

[sleahead]

Hi, Roland, welcome to the forum. After reading your post about your brother, I should warn you of one thing - don't expect too much too soon. Your brother seems to be deeply into the 9/11 and Alex Jones stuff and such types don't change their opinion very easily. No amount amount of clear evidence to the contrary seems to be able persuade them they are wrong. Around these parts, 9/11 conspiracy theory is often called the cult of 9/11 and its members, like other cults members, can be highly resistant to the rational world outside the cult. The road to getting your brother back may be a long one.

[RolandtheGunslinger]

Hi, Roland, welcome to the forum. After reading your post about your brother, I should warn you of one thing - don't expect too much too soon. Your brother seems to be deeply into the 9/11 and Alex Jones stuff and such types don't change their opinion very easily. No amount amount of clear evidence to the contrary seems to be able persuade them they are wrong. Around these parts, 9/11 conspiracy theory is often called the cult of 9/11 and its members, like other cults members, can be highly resistant to the rational world outside the cult. The road to getting your brother back may be a long one.
Hi Sleahead and thanks for the welcome. He is in extremely deep (we use the CULT reference often), and I have come to the realization that I may be doing this for a long time. I also understand the possibility of never getting through to him.

Thanks for the support Sleahead. I don't need to be softened up or coddled. Your honesty is exactly what people like me need. People try to handle us with kids gloves. If you see me slipping, let me fall. Then point out my mistake.

[Kiwiwriter]

I don't think that's so much a comment on the prowess of the American guys as it is a comment on the girls in Christchurch... ;)

They have quite the reputation.

-Gumboot

I wouldn't know. My fiancee flew down from New York to marry me in Christchurch, because we could do it for $450 and no blood test, in the gardens near my apartment. Five days later, my father died back in New York. Some week.

We had a party that night and Kats went home to finish her job and pack out her apartment. I flew home for a reception two months later. We had a nice big reception in Palisades Park...and then the next day, we had the memorial for my father. I had folks attending both events. From celebrating a wedding to mourning a death in 24 hours. That was a bizarre weekend.

However, one time I rode a bus home from work and two girls got on at the hotel near the airport, and one of them blurted out to me that she had just spent the entire night with her boyfriend, while her girlfriend was on the next bed with her boyfriend. It was something both of them wanted to brag about to total strangers.

I really didn't know what to say. :boggled:

[RolandtheGunslinger]

A useful thing is to learn the CT-killer for each topic - that is the one detail that makes their entire house of cards fall down. Here's some examples:

WTC7 - the eyewitness statements by FDNY. Either they are telling the truth, and the building was severly damaged and on fire, ready to fall, or the FDNY helped destroy the building.

NORAD - NORAD's mission pre 9/11 was to patrol the ADIZ - a narrow band around the outside of the USA. NORAD had never prior to 9/11 intercepted an aircraft inside USA airspace (The Payne Stewart learjet was not intercepted by NORAD but by other USAF aircraft).

Pentagon/AA77 - hundreds of people witnessed the event. They SAW the airliner hit The Pentagon. Many specifically remember an American Airlines aircraft.

WTC collapse - FDNY had suspicions of structural integrity from an early stage and ordered evac of WTC1. NYPD aviation unit reported bowing of exterior columns and predicted "eminent collapse".

UA93 - FDR reports all systems normal at time of impact.

Al Qaeda/Terrorists - Death of all hijackers save one has been confirmed by governments of their countries and by immediate family members (family members of one refuse to confirm death as they are rabidly anti-US themselves). Martyr tapes of hijackers exist.

These, I believe, are the key facts. Cling to these like a rabid dog. It is not enough that a CTer provides their own evidence. They MUST be able to explain each of the above facts.

-Gumboot

Thank you Gumboot. These are going to be main keys for me. I have scanned SOOOOO much information! Separating the baloney from the filet is proving to be a major undertaking. Thank goodness for places like this.

[Kiwiwriter]

You have my sympathies in dealing with your brother. It's unfortunate that this idiocy divides families.

Remember that a family is a club we have to join, whether or not we wanted to.

You might, in addition to the material above, point out to your brother how many times in human history there have been opportunities for the glorious New World Order conspiracy (and it's the same conspiracy all through, it just changes names to fit present politics) has been on the edge of taking over everything, but somehow failed. Look at the nutty stuff put out in the 1920s by Henry Ford about "The International Jew." It's exactly the same as the anti-Semitic drivel of today, with just the names changed.

Look at how the NWO had chances to take over or end the world in times of revolution (1848), two World Wars, a Great Depression, a Cold War, and at the end of the Cold War. But it never happened. 1932 would have been a perfect time to impose dictatorship on the West, but it didn't happen. The Americans could have imposed Pax Americana on the world in 1945 with a few atomic attacks, but didn't. The world could have ended numerous times during the Cold War, but it didn't. And all the pundits who warned of the inevitability of a Communist takeover were wrong.

Heck, remember Y2K? That didn't happen, either!

So this grand conspiracy is darned inefficient, sloppy, and clearly not able to control anything beyond the imaginations of the CTers.

We've got your back.

[The Silver Shadow]

Hi Roland, hopefully your brother will listen to you, and I'm very sorry to hear about this. I would be repeating information if I were to tell you what to do. The JREFers here know what they're doing, and hopefully your brother will let logic and understanding flow through him.

You might want to ask your brother to find a bill that could have been passed by the US congress which allowed the spending of literally trillions of dollars to keep the 9/11 attacks a secret to all those who were qualified to make these kinds of assumptions.

[gumboot]

You might, in addition to the material above, point out to your brother how many times in human history there have been opportunities for the glorious New World Order conspiracy (and it's the same conspiracy all through, it just changes names to fit present politics) has been on the edge of taking over everything, but somehow failed. Look at the nutty stuff put out in the 1920s by Henry Ford about "The International Jew." It's exactly the same as the anti-Semitic drivel of today, with just the names changed.



Not to mention the NWO (presumably) were the power behind the Romans, so at one point they DID rule the world (the bits anyone knew about, anyway) and yet they screwed it all up.

After the Great Plague of the 14th C probably would have been an excellent opportunity aswell.

-Gumboot

[T.A.M.]

Roland;

If you havent already found them, there are a number of typed up articles by a user named "Gravy" aka Mark Roberts. He is one of the best researchers here, and also acts, intentionally or not (not sure), as the bane of the truth movement. Anything written by him you can take to the bank wrt reliability, and thoroughness. His paper on WTC7 is PARTICULARLY thorough.

TAM:)

[pagan]

I was just wondering what are your ways of combatting conspiracy theorists? I ask because for the second time in a month, I've been at uni and glanced over at someones computer only to see them watching a 9/11 video and so I tear a lil' bit of paper outta my notepad and just silently hand them a list of sites: 911 myths, this forum section, SLC, WTC7 lies paper, lolloosechange.

I do what I can. Debating conspiracy theorists on this forum. Me? I'm a 911 truther. We don't believe in the Bush adm conspiracy theory. We use our rational and critical faculties to expose such baseless fantasies.

To believe in such BS, after all the lies,you have to be a real Bush lover.

[maccy]

I do what I can. Debating conspiracy theorists on this forum. Me? I'm a 911 truther. We don't believe in the Bush adm conspiracy theory. We use our rational and critical faculties to expose such baseless fantasies.

To believe in such BS, after all the lies,you have to be a real Bush lover.

I haven't seen you use your rational and critical faculties yet. You just repeat yourself and troll (and yes, I'm falling for it).

To repeat the rebuttal to your statement:

1. it's evidence that counts, not who it appears to favour; hence

2. plenty of posters here disapprove of Bush, personally I think he is a disgrace.

Do you get a kick out these idiotic repetitive postings?

[Alt+F4]

Twice students told me, "Miss, you have to watch LC, the government did it!". So I watched it and I was horrified. It would be ethically unacceptable for me to say, "Kids, 9/11 was NOT an inside job, you're wrong." Instead, I had them pick any conspiracy theory they wanted, research information on both sides, and using logical arguments we had discussed in class, come to their own conclusions on what was evidence and what was Internet BS.

Not one of these 16 & 17 year-olds who researched 9/11 came away from the assignment believing it was an inside job.

I'm going to do this assignment every year for the rest of my teaching career and encourage my colleagues to do the same.

Thank you Dylan Avery, thanks to your dumb movie, thousands and thousands of NYC high school students will NEVER believe your lies.

[Totovader]

Twice students told me, "Miss, you have to watch LC, the government did it!". So I watched it and I was horrified. It would be ethically unacceptable for me to say, "Kids, 9/11 was NOT an inside job, you're wrong." Instead, I had them pick any conspiracy theory they wanted, research information on both sides, and using logical arguments we had discussed in class, come to their own conclusions on what was evidence and what was Internet BS.

Not one of these 16 & 17 year-olds who researched 9/11 came away from the assignment believing it was an inside job.

I'm going to do this assignment every year for the rest of my teaching career and encourage my colleagues to do the same.

Thank you Dylan Avery, thanks to your dumb movie, thousands and thousands of NYC high school students will NEVER believe your lies.

I think it's a good lesson in logic and critical thinking- and in a sense- skepticism. If I were a teacher, I would do exactly what you're doing. Telling them "it's wrong" accomplishes nothing, but helping them understand will prepare them for similar fights in the future, I think.

Thank you for that.

[Alt+F4]

I think it's a good lesson in logic and critical thinking- and in a sense- skepticism. If I were a teacher, I would do exactly what you're doing. Telling them "it's wrong" accomplishes nothing, but helping them understand will prepare them for similar fights in the future, I think.

Thank you for that.

Well I try...One kid is still convinced, beyond a doubt, that the Loch Ness monster is real. :)

[Unsecured Coins]

the Loch Ness monster is real.

It is.

[maccy]

It is.

Here's compelling evidence, in this documentary from 1975:

4LL-AdJNKNE

[Firestone]

Twice students told me, "Miss, you have to watch LC, the government did it!". So I watched it and I was horrified. It would be ethically unacceptable for me to say, "Kids, 9/11 was NOT an inside job, you're wrong." Instead, I had them pick any conspiracy theory they wanted, research information on both sides, and using logical arguments we had discussed in class, come to their own conclusions on what was evidence and what was Internet BS.

Not one of these 16 & 17 year-olds who researched 9/11 came away from the assignment believing it was an inside job.

I'm going to do this assignment every year for the rest of my teaching career and encourage my colleagues to do the same.

Thank you Dylan Avery, thanks to your dumb movie, thousands and thousands of NYC high school students will NEVER believe your lies.Interesting.

A similar experience was behind the Zembla-program on 9/11 (the Dutch program Truthers only remember because of Jowenko's statement).

Students at the Delft University of Technology saw Loose Change, were convinced, and went to their professor to get his opinion. Instead of saying it's BS, he made it into a small summer project.
For two weeks they studied the physics of the WTC collapse and the Pentagon crash, and of course concluded that the standard version was accurate.
In the program the students reported on their studies, and vented their anger at Loose Change for lying to them.

[RolandtheGunslinger]

You guys are Top Shelf. Top Notch. I appreciate you all. The different viewpoints are only solidifying my research/ammo gathering. Thank you. It is amazing just how easy it is to sway people these people with crap information. I don't claim to be a doctor, or an engineer, but I do have two degrees, several technical certs, and cannot for the life of me understand why people buy the Theory BS so easily. Feelings of inadequacy? Low self esteem? Social inadequacy?

The member gathering tactics rival those that Al Qaeda uses to bring in their "members."

[Redtail]

Twice students told me, "Miss, you have to watch LC, the government did it!". So I watched it and I was horrified. It would be ethically unacceptable for me to say, "Kids, 9/11 was NOT an inside job, you're wrong." Instead, I had them pick any conspiracy theory they wanted, research information on both sides, and using logical arguments we had discussed in class, come to their own conclusions on what was evidence and what was Internet BS.

Not one of these 16 & 17 year-olds who researched 9/11 came away from the assignment believing it was an inside job.

I'm going to do this assignment every year for the rest of my teaching career and encourage my colleagues to do the same.

Thank you Dylan Avery, thanks to your dumb movie, thousands and thousands of NYC high school students will NEVER believe your lies.

Heh. I do the same thing in my public speaking classes at FAMU and FSU.

[gumboot]

The member gathering tactics rival those that Al Qaeda uses to bring in their "members."



Actually that's a good point. I am sure you could draw enormous parallels between Terrorist recruitment tactics and those employed by the Truth Movement. (Such as building on pre-existing bias, misrepresenting information, quote mining, etc...)

-Gumboot

[Dr Aardwolf]

Sadly, I know several CTers, and worse, they're my friends! One believes in David Icke's 'the world is run by shape-shifting lizards' another is a 9/11er and another is convinced the moon landings were faked. I try to talk calmly and reasonably with them, but they always just dismiss any arguements I come up with and it often ends in an awful shouting match.

It's fascinating that someone with, like, no interest in the space program at all can become an 'instant expert' on exactly how things should behave on another world. Much as I love 'em, I'm trying desperately to use these CTer friends to improve my skeptical skills and learn to argue more effectively.

This forum is kinda like my sanctuary of rationalism when I'm overwhelmed with despair at my otherwise quite intelligent mates. The brilliant ideas I read here are like an oasis of clear, critical thinking in a woo-woo world.

[Dr Aardwolf]

Sorry, accidental multiple posting due to dodgy connection and I don't know how to delete!

[Dr Aardwolf]

Sorry, accidental multiple posting due to dodgy connection and I don't know how to delete!

[Dr Aardwolf]

Sorry, accidental multiple posting due to dodgy connection and I don't know how to delete!