Need Advice!!

[Ruby]

Hi,

As some of you know, I left my church recently under upsetting circumstances read here to see http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22658.

I've had some communication with a friend who still attends my old church, but it has not been easy. I admitted to her why I left, but tried to keep our friendship intact.

Today I ran into her at Target and she gave me a sort of warning that her husband (who is a lay Pastor) was upset by my emails to her and had sent me an email. I looked her right in the face and said "fine" and told her that he'd just have to forgive me if he was upset with me. She changed the subject fast. You must understand, I have always been a mouse and would never have looked her in the eye and spoke firmly. I would have shook and felt fear and guilt in the past, and probably said nothing. Not now...not after aLL THE HELL i'VE GONE THROUGH!!!
:j2:

Anyhow, this lay-Pastor who sent me an email is the typical fundamental who buys everything that is taught to him and rarely, if ever, studies for himself. That is NO exaggeration. And yet, our Pastor put him in charge of many things at our church...much to our dismay..and the dismay of others.

I know it's poor etiquette to post someone's email like this.....please forgive me in posting it. I really would like advice and input on how to respond.

"Karen (my real name)

This is Scott. I want to know who these people are that are saying there is a secret group of elders at Living Stones. Who is the individual that was asked to join the "group"? Don't tell me that you can't give out their names......unless they are lying and don't want to be reviled (he meant to say revealed). Your conclusion of who fit the criteria of an elder was inaccurate.
I have listened to the tapes from both messages many times and Pastor is very explanatory in what he is saying. It would only be offensive to those who are not already participating in the things he has spoken of. "

The things to point out is that my criteria of what an Elder should be came straight out of the bible that he claims to believe in. I feel that if I reveal the person who was told that the group of elders was a "secret group", I will be gossiping worse than I have probably already done, but moreover, I will betray someone. This person is not the only one who was told that there was a group of secret elders. Yes, Pastor was very explanatory. He made it clear that to be a member of the church you had to pay tithes, be involved in ministries, and show up to every service. Not to mention looking at the Pastor not as a man....and never asking him questions.

The accusation to me by this email is that I am not right in my position to leave. I am just someone who is offended because I am not doing the things the Pastor is promoting. That makes me a very bad Christian!! AHHHHH!!!!

I AM SO F%%KING sick of fundamental Christians!!!!! :a2: :a2: :a2: :hit:

Sorry folks!!!:(

[Yahweh]

Perhaps you should start your own church and teach Christianity the way it was meant to be taught. No secret elders, no worry of bizarre cultist behavior, good ol' fashion readin' the bible... you could call your church the Church of Ruby...


"Karen (my real name)

This is Scott. I want to know who these people are that are saying there is a secret group of elders at Living Stones. Who is the individual that was asked to join the "group"? Don't tell me that you can't give out their names......unless they are lying and don't want to be reviled (he meant to say revealed). Your conclusion of who fit the criteria of an elder was inaccurate.
I have listened to the tapes from both messages many times and Pastor is very explanatory in what he is saying. It would only be offensive to those who are not already participating in the things he has spoken of. "
I honestly dont know how to respond to this email without being very sarcastic and angry. Tell him that regardless of who gave you the information about Secret Elders, it doesnt take away from that fact that any kind of elders go against what Christianity is all about. Instead it turns it into a secret club where elitists can attempt enlist other members... thats not how the bible is meant to be taught. I dont exactly know where I am getting at but I hope I have been of at least a little help. It sounds like the preist is trying to be Mr. Passive Assertive... he doesnt seem like a good pastor (or priest... I dont know if there is a difference). He is obviously not worth your time to explain your dicisions. If at all, tell him that he should not judge your reasons for leaving the church, he should accept the fact you left because you didnt like the way he ran it.

[NoZed Avenger]

For what its worth, Ruby, (if you choose to reply at all), I would advise you to stick to a simple, non-aggressive statement that your path and that of the church have simply parted ways.

I don't think naming anyone or arguing any points that he raises or makes implications about will do any good, and might cause some trouble for you and/or your friends still at the church.

Stay nice, reasonable, and respectful, but stone-wall the questions and say that you and your family feel that you need to be following a different path. Wish him luck and health, etc.

These are offerred somewhat hesitantly -- no one knows the situation and people involved as well as you do. You are therefore in a far better position to judge the situation and act appropriately.

[psychic mode] I think that you have a "gut" feeling on how to handle this, but want to see if anyone either confirms it or shoots it down. You know, deep down, that the action you are contemplating is the right one, but you hesitate because it may lead to conflict. You are hoping to avoid the problems, but deep down already know the "right" thing to do. Trust your gut

The energies are withdrawing now. [/end psychic mode]


Luck.

NA

[Max560]

I see no value in escalating the conflict. I agree that you should probably stick with the diverging path explanation, and not elaborate further. No other explanation is required.

I find it interesting that an organization can claim to represent a loving God, treat their congregation like crap, then get all snippy when someone decides to leave.

I would suggest expanding your social network outside of current members of the current congregation. I stopped going to church years ago, and find that life has been just fine.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Yahweh
Perhaps you should start your own church and teach Christianity the way it was meant to be taught. No secret elders, no worry of bizarre cultist behavior, good ol' fashion readin' the bible... you could call your church the Church of Ruby...
:wink8:




I honestly dont know how to respond to this email without being very sarcastic and angry. Tell him that regardless of who gave you the information about Secret Elders, it doesnt take away from that fact that any kind of elders go against what Christianity is all about. Instead it turns it into a secret club where elitists can attempt enlist other members... thats not how the bible is meant to be taught. I dont exactly know where I am getting at but I hope I have been of at least a little help. It sounds like the preist is trying to be Mr. Passive Assertive... he doesnt seem like a good pastor (or priest... I dont know if there is a difference). He is obviously not worth your time to explain your dicisions. If at all, tell him that he should not judge your reasons for leaving the church, he should accept the fact you left because you didnt like the way he ran it.

Thanks that's good advice. The person who sent me the email is an ordained minister in our church.....sometimes called a lay-pastor, but he is not "the" Pastor. He does not really know the bible very well and fumbles terribly through any message he is allowed to teach. He is also a very cruel and harsh parent to his two step-children....and that has always disturbed me. He is what we call here in Texas.....a good ole boy.....very cowboyish, although does not own a ranch, have cattle or go out roping or rounding up anything. My hubby clashed with him terribly while we were in church. My hubby did try to be friends, but my hubby's intellectual mind baffled him (the fumbling minister) completely. He began to drive my hubby up a wall.

:mad:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger
For what its worth, Ruby, (if you choose to reply at all), I would advise you to stick to a simple, non-aggressive statement that your path and that of the church have simply parted ways.

I don't think naming anyone or arguing any points that he raises or makes implications about will do any good, and might cause some trouble for you and/or your friends still at the church.

Stay nice, reasonable, and respectful, but stone-wall the questions and say that you and your family feel that you need to be following a different path. Wish him luck and health, etc.

These are offerred somewhat hesitantly -- no one knows the situation and people involved as well as you do. You are therefore in a far better position to judge the situation and act appropriately.

[psychic mode] I think that you have a "gut" feeling on how to handle this, but want to see if anyone either confirms it or shoots it down. You know, deep down, that the action you are contemplating is the right one, but you hesitate because it may lead to conflict. You are hoping to avoid the problems, but deep down already know the "right" thing to do. Trust your gut

The energies are withdrawing now. [/end psychic mode]


Luck.

NA

:D

In my heart, I want to thrash him. I want to let him have it and tell him off. But I know that is not the right way to respond. I am just so tired of playing it safe and being so meek and reserved. :mad:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Max560
I see no value in escalating the conflict. I agree that you should probably stick with the diverging path explanation, and not elaborate further. No other explanation is required.

I find it interesting that an organization can claim to represent a loving God, treat their congregation like crap, then get all snippy when someone decides to leave.

I would suggest expanding your social network outside of current members of the current congregation. I stopped going to church years ago, and find that life has been just fine.

I can see that it's going to be impossible to keep friends that still attend my former church. I need to cut all ties and just be civil if we run into each other. It's the safest way....unfortunately!:(

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by Ruby
You must understand, I have always been a mouseRuby, there is nothing wrong with being a mouse. ;)

I would definitely reply - not to argue his point of view but to put your own view.
But I would not continue to correspond with him if he continues to harass you.

And, Ruby, when you reply......use a big pencil. ;)

regards,
BillyJoe

[Nova Land]

Originally posted by Ruby
The accusation to me by this email is that I am not right in my position to leave.Looks like you've already gotten lots of good advice. Nozed and Max both already said the main things I would have said (and did it better and shorter than I'd have been able). (And, a note to BillyJoe: my cat strongly agrees with you that there is nothing wrong with being a mouse, and said she would love to meet you in the flesh to discuss this more, perhaps over dinner...)
One thing that grabbed my eye in your post was the line quoted above. It sounds to me like your friend's husband is turning the matter upside-down.

If I read it correctly, he seems to be taking the position that, unless you can prove to him you are right, you have no right to leave. That's a neat way to control people! It should be just the reverse: unless he (or others) can disprove the things that make you uncomfortable, you have every right to leave!

Expecting you to stay in a church because he doesn't share your feelings is silly. If the positions were reversed, would he be willilng to leave the church if he couldn't prove to someone else that he was right?

It's your life, not his.

[justsaygnosis]

The part that your former pastor wishes to be looked on as more than a man jumps at me.
There are plenty of highly educated and talented people in this world who don't attempt to extend their 'authority' beyond their specialty.
Doctors let the mechanic fix the car and the electrician wire the house even though they're not going to take medical advice from either.
Ministers are granted broad reaching authority on the basis they're god's agents and representatives. When they go off on tangents regulating all the aspects of existence they feel they're qualified to, regardless of their knowledge and experience in those areas they're over the lines, PERIOD!!!
From what yu've posted I think you've come to terms with this in many ways. It's not a great deal different than when a person begins to find out their parents are far less of gods and way more regular people that disillusionment and insecurity sets in. As adults we can appreciate and value the contributions and difficulties of parents from an adult perspective and respect parents MORE because they weren't supernaturally endowed. A minister who claims a supernatural seal of authority and ceases to identify themself as a fellow sojourner on life's journey is bad news.
Use as much tact and diplomacy as you can muster so as to maintain the friendship of the people you value from that community but if they atempt to browbeat you into a penitent and guilt-filled return to their flock you'll need to wash your hands of them.

[Roadtoad]

I have a truck to go clean today, so I'm going to have to either PM you my response, or write one later. But, Ruby, I've gotten nearly the EXACT same letter from Pastors in the past.

My advice? Take that letter and burn it. Mail the ashes back to the church. Maybe they'll get the hint.

Bastards.

[Marc]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
My advice? Take that letter and burn it. Mail the ashes back to the church. Maybe they'll get the hint.

uhh.. she said it was e-mail, if she burns it and sends it back he'd get a big backage of melted metal and plastic.
:brk:
maybe not a bad idea, but then she wouldn't be able to tell us how it went.:D

The whole thing does sound like the start of a cult. The head is to be considered inerrant, not to be questioned. Greater control over member's lives. Shunning (disconnection, disfellowship, whatever they want to call it) former members. Definitely a good time to get out, and maybe look up some material on exit counseling.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Marc


uhh.. she said it was e-mail, if she burns it and sends it back he'd get a big backage of melted metal and plastic.
:brk:
maybe not a bad idea, but then she wouldn't be able to tell us how it went.:D

The whole thing does sound like the start of a cult. The head is to be considered inerrant, not to be questioned. Greater control over member's lives. Shunning (disconnection, disfellowship, whatever they want to call it) former members. Definitely a good time to get out, and maybe look up some material on exit counseling.

Well, I'd print it out first...

Although, sending back a mangled computer would be a sweet idea, too. My kids know of a virus she could e-mail him that would annihilate his system. :D

Ruby, I'd hit a Christian book store and pick up the book, Churches That Abuse. After one of the incidents I went through, I read through that book, and found a lot of help there. I'd recommend a few others, as well, as soon as I can recall titles, but for God's sake, GET OUT OF THERE. This yobbo is not a pastor, he is, as Marc said, a cult leader.

Any time you have a leader who cannot be challenged, you are in trouble. He may have been anointed by God to lead, but he's still just a man. He's prone to make mistakes, and right now, he's making some serious whoppers.

As to your "friends," and this paranoia trip, demanding to know names and the like, I say f*** 'em. First of all, you are never to have a sort of "secret" group of leaders within a church, if for no other reason, than because there is no accountability. Second, you don't play those sort of games because it does not strengthen the pastor, it undermines his authority. Third, it gets into the games played by the Nicolaitans, (and no, this ain't the place to go into gnositicism and the like), which is prohibited as stated in Revelation. (God, I'm sorry I brought that up! Now Billiefan is going to show up and start riffing...)

Friends like this, you do not need. I suggest you tell your friend's husband that if he were really a Christian, he'd be spending more time LISTENING rather than TALKING to you. I'm sick of this crap, this game that if someone leaves a body of believers, it can't possibly be the fault of the leadership. In your case, it's not only the fault of the leaders, but the fault of members of the congregation that are sitting by and allowing this jerk with a title run your church into the ground. That's not even SMART!

Tell you one thing, kiddo: A couple of good suggestions have been floated. Why not connect with some of your other friends, find out what you have in common theologically speaking, and put together a small church. Keep it open, keep it real, keep it in the heart. Might work. Sure can't do any worse than this abusive pack of liars you're leaving behind.

Heaven only knows, you and your family deserve better.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Ruby


I can see that it's going to be impossible to keep friends that still attend my former church. I need to cut all ties and just be civil if we run into each other. It's the safest way....unfortunately!:(
It sounds like the friend you met is being encouraged to shun you. You don't have to cut that tie, you can leave that decision up to her. Maybe she will find the courage to fight it, maybe not.

[Ratman_tf]

Ruby, it sounds to me like you need to extract your sense of self-worth from that 'group' and place it solely on yourself and your immediate family.

There's my stab at armchair psychology for today. :cool:

[AmateurScientist]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

It sounds like the friend you met is being encouraged to shun you. You don't have to cut that tie, you can leave that decision up to her. Maybe she will find the courage to fight it, maybe not.

I agree. It never harmed anyone to be the bigger person in a situation like this. The best way to handle encounters with your friends from your former church is to be extra friendly to them and to act as if nothing happened. That will demonstrate that you are willing to remain friends despite the conflict and that you do not hold grudges. If they are not up to the task, then it is their loss and their failure.

The satisfaction you will derive from this is in knowing that you did the right thing by demonstrating moral courage and genuine kindness and forgiveness. If you salvage some friendships, you will get further satisfaction. If not, then you may comfort yourself that such persons may not have really been your trusted friends after all.

Good luck with it. Do what your heart tells you to do.

AS

[kittynh]

Actually, Ruby, the fact that you looked your friend from the church in the eye and are sticking up for yourself, shows you've grown more by leaving the church than you ever would have by staying. Churchs like that want women to not only be meek, they want them to be totally unquestioning. Be polite, be classy, but most of all BE GONE!

Best wishes, Kitty:c1:

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by kittynh
Actually, Ruby, the fact that you looked your friend from the church in the eye and are sticking up for yourself, shows you've grown more by leaving the church than you ever would have by staying. Churchs like that want women to not only be meek, they want them to be totally unquestioning. Be polite, be classy, but most of all BE GONE!

Best wishes, Kitty:c1:

Your post made me think of moments in my marriage, Kittynh.

Supposedly, according to the Southern Baptist Convention, women are to be "Gratefully Submissive," (Caps mine), which was probably one of the damn dumbest things the SBC has ever said.

Probably the most "submissive" thing my wife has done is when I've gone out and bought some tool I really didn't need, or blown money on books I won't get to reading any time soon, she's looked me in the eye and demanded, "What were you thinking!?!?!?

I'm sorry, but even in scripture, I was more drawn to people like Deborah, and Mary, (sister of Lazarus), who just didn't fit the "submissive" role.

God bless 'em! I like tough women! They may be every inch a lady, but By God, they have COURAGE. I'll take that any day. That and brains.

[Zep]

Ruby, this is truly the time to "turn the other cheek". If you are happy with your decisions lately, and it does sound like you are, don't let their ranting get to you ever.

This is a bit like when a marriage goes bad - it starts out good but gets so bad that the separation becomes inevitable. But even after the divorce, you still want to rant and question about why it was so good before but then got so bad.

This is why you need to move on, not only figuratively but literally too - find something else to do, more important and satisfying in your life. Don't look back with anguish at those people who made your life a mess and beat yourself up about it - they were the problem and they are history now.

And I do pity the wife of the "cowboy" - I suspect, from your description of the conversation, that she is probably thinking much along the lines that you were not so very long ago... Maybe you will not lose that friendship...

cheers
Zep

[Marc]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
Supposedly, according to the Southern Baptist Convention, women are to be "Gratefully Submissive," (Caps mine), which was probably one of the damn dumbest things the SBC has ever said.

Probably the best thing I've done in my life was to give what little help I could to a woman getting out of a mariage to a Baptist. Descriptions of his family made them sound like the mafia. In their world women did not get higher education, they did not get jobs, they did not ask questions. Yes, of course he beat her whenever he got pissed off, but she worked on getting him to control his anger, and it worked. He eventualy got to the point where rather than hitting her he would leave the room. His family then ridiculed him, saying she took away his masculinity, so he went back to beating her. http://members.cox.net/draft2/Smileys/goingnuts.gif

One of the reasons she stayed in there as long as she did was she figured it was like that everywhere, people just didn't talk about it. Maybe in some of these communities it is like that. It wasn't till she met some truly nice guys online that she realized not everyone is like that, which led to her escaping.

Hearing these religious bastards who promote that kind of environment, calling it the way god intended people to be.. well...http://members.cox.net/draft2/Smileys/fire.gif I can't even think of how to describe what it makes me feel.

[MRC_Hans]

I can only join the chorous: You did right to leave. What the others do is their business, don't mess with them, show a nice face, be polite, but do not argue with anybody. It is painful enough for you as it is.

About any new church: Just remember that you do not need a church to meet God. God is anywhere. You are not leaving God, only some organization that calls itself a church.

Hans

[Ruby]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
Ruby, there is nothing wrong with being a mouse. ;)

I would definitely reply - not to argue his point of view but to put your own view.
But I would not continue to correspond with him if he continues to harass you.

And, Ruby, when you reply......use a big pencil. ;)

regards,
BillyJoe

:wink8:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Nova Land
Looks like you've already gotten lots of good advice. Nozed and Max both already said the main things I would have said (and did it better and shorter than I'd have been able). (And, a note to BillyJoe: my cat strongly agrees with you that there is nothing wrong with being a mouse, and said she would love to meet you in the flesh to discuss this more, perhaps over dinner...)
One thing that grabbed my eye in your post was the line quoted above. It sounds to me like your friend's husband is turning the matter upside-down.

If I read it correctly, he seems to be taking the position that, unless you can prove to him you are right, you have no right to leave. That's a neat way to control people! It should be just the reverse: unless he (or others) can disprove the things that make you uncomfortable, you have every right to leave!

Expecting you to stay in a church because he doesn't share your feelings is silly. If the positions were reversed, would he be willilng to leave the church if he couldn't prove to someone else that he was right?

It's your life, not his.

Very well said!

[Ruby]

Originally posted by justsaygnosis
The part that your former pastor wishes to be looked on as more than a man jumps at me.
There are plenty of highly educated and talented people in this world who don't attempt to extend their 'authority' beyond their specialty.
Doctors let the mechanic fix the car and the electrician wire the house even though they're not going to take medical advice from either.
Ministers are granted broad reaching authority on the basis they're god's agents and representatives. When they go off on tangents regulating all the aspects of existence they feel they're qualified to, regardless of their knowledge and experience in those areas they're over the lines, PERIOD!!!
From what yu've posted I think you've come to terms with this in many ways. It's not a great deal different than when a person begins to find out their parents are far less of gods and way more regular people that disillusionment and insecurity sets in. As adults we can appreciate and value the contributions and difficulties of parents from an adult perspective and respect parents MORE because they weren't supernaturally endowed. A minister who claims a supernatural seal of authority and ceases to identify themself as a fellow sojourner on life's journey is bad news.
Use as much tact and diplomacy as you can muster so as to maintain the friendship of the people you value from that community but if they atempt to browbeat you into a penitent and guilt-filled return to their flock you'll need to wash your hands of them.

Yep, it freaked me out when my Pastor said for us not to look on him as a man. He also said he is "sin-free", which is just the same as saying "I can do no wrong". I found it disturbing and strange. :c1:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Marc


uhh.. she said it was e-mail, if she burns it and sends it back he'd get a big backage of melted metal and plastic.
:brk:
maybe not a bad idea, but then she wouldn't be able to tell us how it went.:D

The whole thing does sound like the start of a cult. The head is to be considered inerrant, not to be questioned. Greater control over member's lives. Shunning (disconnection, disfellowship, whatever they want to call it) former members. Definitely a good time to get out, and maybe look up some material on exit counseling.

Exactly!!

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Roadtoad


Well, I'd print it out first...

Although, sending back a mangled computer would be a sweet idea, too. My kids know of a virus she could e-mail him that would annihilate his system. :D

Ruby, I'd hit a Christian book store and pick up the book, Churches That Abuse. After one of the incidents I went through, I read through that book, and found a lot of help there. I'd recommend a few others, as well, as soon as I can recall titles, but for God's sake, GET OUT OF THERE. This yobbo is not a pastor, he is, as Marc said, a cult leader.

Any time you have a leader who cannot be challenged, you are in trouble. He may have been anointed by God to lead, but he's still just a man. He's prone to make mistakes, and right now, he's making some serious whoppers.

As to your "friends," and this paranoia trip, demanding to know names and the like, I say f*** 'em. First of all, you are never to have a sort of "secret" group of leaders within a church, if for no other reason, than because there is no accountability. Second, you don't play those sort of games because it does not strengthen the pastor, it undermines his authority. Third, it gets into the games played by the Nicolaitans, (and no, this ain't the place to go into gnositicism and the like), which is prohibited as stated in Revelation. (God, I'm sorry I brought that up! Now Billiefan is going to show up and start riffing...)

Friends like this, you do not need. I suggest you tell your friend's husband that if he were really a Christian, he'd be spending more time LISTENING rather than TALKING to you. I'm sick of this crap, this game that if someone leaves a body of believers, it can't possibly be the fault of the leadership. In your case, it's not only the fault of the leaders, but the fault of members of the congregation that are sitting by and allowing this jerk with a title run your church into the ground. That's not even SMART!

Tell you one thing, kiddo: A couple of good suggestions have been floated. Why not connect with some of your other friends, find out what you have in common theologically speaking, and put together a small church. Keep it open, keep it real, keep it in the heart. Might work. Sure can't do any worse than this abusive pack of liars you're leaving behind.

Heaven only knows, you and your family deserve better.

Thanks for the book recommendation. I shall have to look it up and buy it.

I was surprised that this guy from church emailed me. He usually believes such a thing is wrong to do. My hubby and I have had run-ins in the past with this man...and even his wife. His wife had said some harsh things to me one time through email and my hubby got P'od and emailed her back. Her hubby got mad and emailed my hubby saying for him to never email his wife like that and to only go through him. My hubby called him and told him off as well as trying to straighten it out.

He is a jerk to the max. He won't study his bible or learn a thing, but he thinks he is called of God to preach. He used to go to a rescue mission to preach. Our friends (who have now left the church) went with him to lead the music. They were appalled many times at the lack of preparation or sheer stupidity of this guy. He was preaching about Jesus's ministry on the earth one time, and could not remember how many years Jesus actually spent preaching. Any Sunday school child can tell you that Jesus ministry lasted three and a half years. The couple who went with him to do music had to mime to him how long Jesus' ministry lasted. Another time, after the music ended, the couple who lead it asked how many people there knew Christ. Everyone put their hands up. Then this idiot preacher got up and preached a strong salvation type message.......after it had been shown that all were "saved".

It was frustrating when our Pastor also put this guy in charge of the mens ministry. My hubby would not even go to the meetings.

I guess I don't care for this guy much:mad: but in another way, I love him...the pity side of me loves him.:confused:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

It sounds like the friend you met is being encouraged to shun you. You don't have to cut that tie, you can leave that decision up to her. Maybe she will find the courage to fight it, maybe not.

I doubt she will. She is sort of meek, naive, and easy led. I feel so sorry for her. I want to help her, but my hands are tied...especially now that her a%%hole husband is sticking his nose into my email communication with her.:a2:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Ratman_tf
Ruby, it sounds to me like you need to extract your sense of self-worth from that 'group' and place it solely on yourself and your immediate family.

There's my stab at armchair psychology for today. :cool:

Good job!! Thanks!!!:D

[Ruby]

Originally posted by AmateurScientist


I agree. It never harmed anyone to be the bigger person in a situation like this. The best way to handle encounters with your friends from your former church is to be extra friendly to them and to act as if nothing happened. That will demonstrate that you are willing to remain friends despite the conflict and that you do not hold grudges. If they are not up to the task, then it is their loss and their failure.

The satisfaction you will derive from this is in knowing that you did the right thing by demonstrating moral courage and genuine kindness and forgiveness. If you salvage some friendships, you will get further satisfaction. If not, then you may comfort yourself that such persons may not have really been your trusted friends after all.

Good luck with it. Do what your heart tells you to do.

AS

Thanks. So far, I don't think I am being very gracious about any of it. I am just tired of being kind to those who Sh&t on me!! :(

[Ruby]

Originally posted by kittynh
Actually, Ruby, the fact that you looked your friend from the church in the eye and are sticking up for yourself, shows you've grown more by leaving the church than you ever would have by staying. Churchs like that want women to not only be meek, they want them to be totally unquestioning. Be polite, be classy, but most of all BE GONE!

Best wishes, Kitty:c1:

Oh, you are so right!! I feel a lot more confident and courageous than I have in years.

My Ex- church used to be very strong on teaching that men and women were equal and that women should be able to preach and hold leadership positions, but before we left, our Pastor started saying that our church was going to be built on "Mighty men". He was shoving women aside and putting all this focus on men. It was strange.....as was everything else he was coming out with.:mad:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Zep
Ruby, this is truly the time to "turn the other cheek". If you are happy with your decisions lately, and it does sound like you are, don't let their ranting get to you ever.

This is a bit like when a marriage goes bad - it starts out good but gets so bad that the separation becomes inevitable. But even after the divorce, you still want to rant and question about why it was so good before but then got so bad.

This is why you need to move on, not only figuratively but literally too - find something else to do, more important and satisfying in your life. Don't look back with anguish at those people who made your life a mess and beat yourself up about it - they were the problem and they are history now.

And I do pity the wife of the "cowboy" - I suspect, from your description of the conversation, that she is probably thinking much along the lines that you were not so very long ago... Maybe you will not lose that friendship...

cheers
Zep

You are probably right!

[Ruby]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
I can only join the chorous: You did right to leave. What the others do is their business, don't mess with them, show a nice face, be polite, but do not argue with anybody. It is painful enough for you as it is.

About any new church: Just remember that you do not need a church to meet God. God is anywhere. You are not leaving God, only some organization that calls itself a church.

Hans

Thanks!!!:)

[Dancing David]

Sorry to read this Ruby, you go girl!

I really like the Unitarian Universalist church, it is a church but not a doctrine.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Dancing David
Sorry to read this Ruby, you go girl!

I really like the Unitarian Universalist church, it is a church but not a doctrine.

Yep, there is a small Unitarian church not far from where I live. I was even able to find it's website online. It sounds very interesting. Still, I don't think I'm quite ready to jump into any church type situation.....although, I must admit, I am feeling lonely and feeling the need for some social interaction.

[ntech]

Ruby,

You owe him nothing. He simply wanted the information to hurt or punish the person who told you that. My wife and I decided one year to get away from all the people in our lives that drain our energy. I am so happy you are standing up for yourself and the truth whatever you decide that is.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by ntech
Ruby,

You owe him nothing. He simply wanted the information to hurt or punish the person who told you that. My wife and I decided one year to get away from all the people in our lives that drain our energy. I am so happy you are standing up for yourself and the truth whatever you decide that is.

Thanks!

I sent this guy an email in reply telling him that I am not giving out names. I also let him know that I question his motives. I think I am going to really tick him off!!!!:eek:

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Ruby


Thanks!

I sent this guy an email in reply telling him that I am not giving out names. I also let him know that I question his motives. I think I am going to really tick him off!!!!:eek: Heheh, I'd like to amend my advice about being nice: Be nice if you want to avoid trouble. If you feel more like being nasty, however: Go for it!
:hit:

Hans:roll:

[Nova Land]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans

I'd like to amend my advice about being nice: Be nice if you want to avoid trouble. If you feel more like being nasty, however: Go for it!Ruby: you have every right to be angry, and to express that anger. If this were a movie and there were a scene with you telling this person off in strong colorful language, I'd be mentally cheering right along with the rest of the audience.

However, this being real life, I think Hans' original advice still has a lot of merit. A reason to avoid being nasty to this person, if you can, is for the sake of the other people still in his clutches.

If you respond to him harshly, he will be able to take your words and offer them to those who have not escaped him as "proof" that you are an angry, spiteful, bad person -- someone they should avoid and pay no attention to. Remember how he was able to attack you from the pulpit even when you were still there? Imagine the performance he can put on, reading from your letter or "quoting" what you've said aloud, when you're not there.

You can't stop him from lying, but you can avoid giving him ammunition. If he makes speeches about all the vile, hateful things he claims you've said, but everyone who has had contact with you since your departure from the church knows you have said nothing ill-mannered, it may be easier for them to reach the same truth that you've discovered -- it's him, not you, that has the problem, and it's him, not you, they need to cut out of their lives.

If you can be strong that way, you may be doing some of them a great service.

Being civil does not mean being silent. By all means, speak out strongly and plainly about what has happened and why to any of your friends who will listen. But I believe they are more likely to want to listen, and to be able to hear, if nastiness is not part of your message.

[kittynh]

Remember too, there are other places of social interaction besides church. I belong to some artisan guilds, we are really supportive of our members during illness and all that. Plus, I do volunteer work, and that makes a lot of contacts for me. I must say it would be nice if there were a skeptic organization around, but I live too far in the boonies. That's why I like JREF it gives me a feeling of belonging, without the fear of being judged for my beliefs or lack thereof.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Nova Land
Ruby: you have every right to be angry, and to express that anger. If this were a movie and there were a scene with you telling this person off in strong colorful language, I'd be mentally cheering right along with the rest of the audience.

However, this being real life, I think Hans' original advice still has a lot of merit. A reason to avoid being nasty to this person, if you can, is for the sake of the other people still in his clutches.
Being civil does not mean being silent. By all means, speak out strongly and plainly about what has happened and why to any of your friends who will listen. But I believe they are more likely to want to listen, and to be able to hear, if nastiness is not part of your message.

Thanks. Very good advice. I am not prone to nastiness, even if I secretly desire to be so when very angry. I have responded to the letter by the lay minister (I did not make it very clear, but he is not the Pastor of the church who preached all the nonsense), and have done so very firmly, but with tact. I have had no reply....and really hope to never hear from him again. He is one of the Pastor's "yes" men. He will pay no heed to what I say. :rolleyes:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by kittynh
Remember too, there are other places of social interaction besides church. I belong to some artisan guilds, we are really supportive of our members during illness and all that. Plus, I do volunteer work, and that makes a lot of contacts for me. I must say it would be nice if there were a skeptic organization around, but I live too far in the boonies. That's why I like JREF it gives me a feeling of belonging, without the fear of being judged for my beliefs or lack thereof.

I shall have to check into artisan guilds around here. I will surprised if there are any! I am way too social phobic to do too much. Volunteer work is out of the question.

JREF is the safest place for me now. I just got connected to Paltalk too....and I'm hoping there will be a room opened soon for all of us on JREF. That will be cool!!:D

[LCBOY]

Ruby,

If you wish, I'll be you'll friend!! :rub:

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Ruby

Yep, it freaked me out when my Pastor said for us not to look on him as a man. He also said he is "sin-free", which is just the same as saying "I can do no wrong". I found it disturbing and strange. :c1:

He declared himself sin-free?

Good grief, Ruby, avoid these people now. This guy is on the short path to severe psychosis, quite possibly including violence.

Nothing in the Bible justifies such a statement. Your Pastor has gone completely insane. I imagine we will be reading about his cult and their death at the hands of fire/poison/federal agents in a few months or so.

:mad:

[LCBOY]

Originally posted by Yahzi


He declared himself sin-free?

Good grief, Ruby, avoid these people now. This guy is on the short path to severe psychosis, quite possibly including violence.

Nothing in the Bible justifies such a statement. Your Pastor has gone completely insane. I imagine we will be reading about his cult and their death at the hands of fire/poison/federal agents in a few months or so.

:mad:

Ruby,

I agree with Yahzi. Your former church is delving into the kingdom of the cults...:eek:

[Sundog]

Originally posted by LCBOY


Ruby,

I agree with Yahzi. You former church is delving into the kingdom of the cults...:eek:

I didn't read all the way through this; what denomination are we talking about here? One of the strengths of the more "established" churches is the idea of doctrine. Stray too far from the doctrine, and you will hear about it from the church's higher-ups. Makes it harder for people to indulge in their more, er, "unique" religious beliefs.

[hgc]

Originally posted by Ruby


Yep, it freaked me out when my Pastor said for us not to look on him as a man. He also said he is "sin-free", which is just the same as saying "I can do no wrong". I found it disturbing and strange. :c1:
Ruby,

I predict that in the future, you will hear stories from other people in your former church about sexual interaction between this Pastor and some members (inappropriately and in violation of trust - I'm not talking about legitimate relationships here). I also predict that some members, upon hearing about it, will find a way to disbelieve or rationalize this transgression.

Like the self-elevation to divine status (sin-free), this is a very common attribute of cult leaders and their followers.

Please keep us informed when the really salacious stuff starts to come out.

[ntech]

Besides the fact that he told everyone that god speaks to him. He is either a liar or psychotic.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by LCBOY
Ruby,

If you wish, I'll be you'll friend!! :rub:

Thanks!! You already are my friend!!:c2: :bgrin:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Yahzi


He declared himself sin-free?

Good grief, Ruby, avoid these people now. This guy is on the short path to severe psychosis, quite possibly including violence.

Nothing in the Bible justifies such a statement. Your Pastor has gone completely insane. I imagine we will be reading about his cult and their death at the hands of fire/poison/federal agents in a few months or so.

:mad:

Yeah, it blew me mind....especially the way he said it. He emphasized it and laughed directing it at those who are going to object. :mad:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by LCBOY


Ruby,

I agree with Yahzi. Your former church is delving into the kingdom of the cults...:eek:

It sure does seem so, but those who are still there will not see it. I have already had a lay-minister send me an angry letter demanding to know who the people are who have said the Pastor has a secret group of elders. I did not reveal the names!!:rolleyes:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Sundog


I didn't read all the way through this; what denomination are we talking about here? One of the strengths of the more "established" churches is the idea of doctrine. Stray too far from the doctrine, and you will hear about it from the church's higher-ups. Makes it harder for people to indulge in their more, er, "unique" religious beliefs.

This is a non-denominational church!! That's bad news. The church is run by the Pastor. He has no one over him. He only has elders to do duties within the church and to kiss his ass. He won't let anyone know who these elders are.:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by hgc

Ruby,

I predict that in the future, you will hear stories from other people in your former church about sexual interaction between this Pastor and some members (inappropriately and in violation of trust - I'm not talking about legitimate relationships here). I also predict that some members, upon hearing about it, will find a way to disbelieve or rationalize this transgression.

Like the self-elevation to divine status (sin-free), this is a very common attribute of cult leaders and their followers.

Please keep us informed when the really salacious stuff starts to come out.

Will do!:eek:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by ntech
Besides the fact that he told everyone that god speaks to him. He is either a liar or psychotic.

I think it's a mental issue. It would be nuts at times because he'd study all week for the coming Sunday's sermon, and then get up give it on the Sunday, and suddenly say that God has told him to preach something else. So, he'd put aside this well studied lesson and proceed to ramble on about stuff that never really made sense...and sometimes was just an attack on people......which is what happened the last Sunday we were there. He had a message all ready, but said God wanted him to talk about something different. That something different was blasting us from the pulpit and revealing things from a private conversation he had with my hubby a few days before. He tore us to shreds and ran and on about how terrible it is for people to miss church because they are sick. I wanted to slap him. I was so mad. My hubby came very very close to getting up out of his seat and chewing out our Pastor right there in church, but he restrained himself.

Anyhow, it does not make sense that God would have him studying hard all week for a sermon only to inform him at the last minute that he was to get up and talk about dribble and ramlbe for an hour or more.:eek:

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Ruby


This is a non-denominational church!! That's bad news. The church is run by the Pastor. He has no one over him. He only has elders to do duties within the church and to kiss his ass. He won't let anyone know who these elders are.:mad: :mad: :mad:

A recipe for abuse, just waiting to happen. That's the whole idea behind the concept of Doctrine.

I used to rebel at the idea: Who's going to tell ME what to believe? :mad: Now I understand that it's ESSENTIAL for the preservation of the institution.

[kittynh]

Sounds like this guy is a total nutcase. Right now he's on a power trip. Hey, God tells him what to say....and he gets to behave in a very unChristian way on Sundays, cause he's God's spokesman. Soon God will be telling him how to act, and you may be sure it won't be in a Christian way (look out if you are a cute member of the congregation).

[Christian]

Ruby wrote:
I AM SO F%%KING sick of fundamental Christians!!!!!

Do you have the same level of tolerance for atheists?

[Jet Grind]

Originally posted by Christian
Ruby wrote:
I AM SO F%%KING sick of fundamental Christians!!!!!

Do you have the same level of tolerance for atheists?

Why should she? What have we done?

[ntech]

Originally posted by Christian
Ruby wrote:
I AM SO F%%KING sick of fundamental Christians!!!!!

Do you have the same level of tolerance for atheists?


We're just hanging, minding our own business. It's the CFs that pry into everyones affairs, calls us names and end up doing all the f***ed up stuff.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Christian
Do you have the same level of tolerance for atheists?

It might be possible for Atheists to tolerate us, if we would quit shouting them down, if we would quit making false accusations against them, if we would quit berating them. But, when you have clowns like Billiefan running around here, trying to impress the "good" people in his church, I'd say atheists have been far more tolerant of us than we deserve.

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
.....when you have clowns like Billiefan running around here, trying to impress the "good" people in his church.... Pretty sure Billiefan is female (but I could be wrong).

[triadboy]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
Pretty sure Billiefan is female (but I could be wrong).

I'll bet a stack of bibles Billiefan is a 12-15 year old girl....and just about as eat up an xian as I've seen. And I've seen some eat up ones.

[no one in particular]

Originally posted by triadboy


I'll bet a stack of bibles Billiefan is a 12-15 year old girl....and just about as eat up an xian as I've seen. And I've seen some eat up ones. Well, supposedly (http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/UserProfile/userid-6217)...

[Lord Emsworth]

Originally posted by triadboy


I'll bet a stack of bibles Billiefan is a 12-15 year old girl....and just about as eat up an xian as I've seen. And I've seen some eat up ones.

I take on your bet and say he is male and in hsi twenties.

But then again what will I do with a stack of Bibles?

Edited to add:

Originally posted by no one in particular
Well, supposedly (http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/UserProfile/userid-6217)...

Damn you I were just typing the above when you came … :D

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Christian
Ruby wrote:
I AM SO F%%KING sick of fundamental Christians!!!!!

Do you have the same level of tolerance for atheists?

Sorry to offend you. I should have rephrased that statement to say "I am so F&&king sick of most fundamental Christians!!".

I realize that there are some nice fundamental Christians out there, but I feel sure that most of them would give me a bashing for the things I am believing in....or not believing in.

Most atheist's I have met online have been kind and understanding. I feel at home on JREF. Do you think if I posted on a fundamentalist Christian forum that I would get the same treatment? Not likely!! :eek: I'd be accused of being used of the devil or being possessed or deluded by the "dark side". I'd have scripture after scripture shoved down my throat and I'd be warned that I was on the highway to hell.:j2:

I am not willing to open myself up to more "spiritual"/emotional abuse. :mad:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
[B]

It might be possible for Atheists to tolerate us, if we would quit shouting them down, if we would quit making false accusations against them, if we would quit berating them. But, when you have clowns like Billiefan running around here, trying to impress the "good" people in his church, I'd say atheists have been far more tolerant of us than we deserve.

I have to agree with you!!!!!:rolleyes:

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Ruby
I realize that there are some nice fundamental Christians out there,...

But, Ruby, don't those 'nice fundamental Christians' smile at you, and think, "You are going to rot in hell."? Then - knowing you are going to rot in hell - their whole demeanor can't help but be affected. They can't be bothered with someone taking the highway to hell. They want to associate with other people who will be flying around clouds, wanging on harps with them.

That's the problem with heaven/hell religions.

[Zep]

Meanwhile, back in rural Texas...

Our heroine, a gentle girl with a good past, has been cruelly betrayed along with her family by a deranged "minister of God" who previously kept them in the dark, literally and figuratively.

So, what will she do, folks???

She has already asked some of her new friends quietly for advice, and they offered her support and encouragement aplenty. The family started to understand that some people whom they were told were called "friends" were nothing of the sort because they remained under the thrall and wrath of "the minister". And that some people they were told were "the enemy" were nothing of the sort because they were kind, comforting, supportive and non-judgemental (like their "friends" weren't).

Will our heroine and family complete the break and see that they are far more free than they thinks they are? Will they put "the minister" behind them completely for good and move out into the world confidently?

:D :D :D

Ruby, you go for it! Do not be afraid to move on out and do what you think is best for yourself and your family. You can see that our opinions on things here in the JREF forum vary significantly (and we are all over the world), but that doesn't seem to stop us from getting along fairly well in the main. And your opinions and views on stuff are just as welcome!

Don't let yourself believe that someone else makes your mind up for you - believe what YOU want to believe, not what some raving lunatic wants you to believe.

cheers
Zep

[evildave]

My Recommendation:

Simply drop it. Have nothing more to do with it. This minister is only history for you. He's not worth your time to worry about. The negativity you're allowing to fester in yourself by fretting over this bozo will not improve your life in any way. Quite the contrary.

No more consideration. No more discussion or gossip. Drop it.

Sure it's hard. Just change the subject. You seriously don't want to bother with any more news about it. His opinions are crackpot enough, why bother worrying over them? His followers' opinions that are reflecting his own are also simply mindless ranting, so why concern yourself with that, either?

HE IS NOTHING TO YOU. Get it through your head. Get over it. Move on.

As I said before, there are likely many other churches and religious organizations in your community. Maybe try Methodism. They aren't usually in the news.

[MRC_Hans]

I agree with Evildave. One more thing: Following that good advice is gonna hurt, temporarily. You have been part of a group, and that group has been an imprtant part of your life. Leaving it behind will geve you a feeling of loss. If you have no knowledge of grief processes, I suggest you get a book about it and read it.

You have a regular grief process to go through, and knowing a bit about it will help you tackle it.

Good luck!
Hans:)

[Ruby]

Originally posted by triadboy


But, Ruby, don't those 'nice fundamental Christians' smile at you, and think, "You are going to rot in hell."? Then - knowing you are going to rot in hell - their whole demeanor can't help but be affected. They can't be bothered with someone taking the highway to hell. They want to associate with other people who will be flying around clouds, wanging on harps with them.

That's the problem with heaven/hell religions.

Yes, you are right!:eek:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Zep
Meanwhile, back in rural Texas...

Our heroine, a gentle girl with a good past, has been cruelly betrayed along with her family by a deranged "minister of God" who previously kept them in the dark, literally and figuratively.

So, what will she do, folks???

She has already asked some of her new friends quietly for advice, and they offered her support and encouragement aplenty. The family started to understand that some people whom they were told were called "friends" were nothing of the sort because they remained under the thrall and wrath of "the minister". And that some people they were told were "the enemy" were nothing of the sort because they were kind, comforting, supportive and non-judgemental (like their "friends" weren't).

Will our heroine and family complete the break and see that they are far more free than they thinks they are? Will they put "the minister" behind them completely for good and move out into the world confidently?

:D :D :D

Ruby, you go for it! Do not be afraid to move on out and do what you think is best for yourself and your family. You can see that our opinions on things here in the JREF forum vary significantly (and we are all over the world), but that doesn't seem to stop us from getting along fairly well in the main. And your opinions and views on stuff are just as welcome!

Don't let yourself believe that someone else makes your mind up for you - believe what YOU want to believe, not what some raving lunatic wants you to believe.

cheers
Zep

:D :D :D

You are so sweet!!!

[Ruby]

Originally posted by evildave
My Recommendation:

Simply drop it. Have nothing more to do with it. This minister is only history for you. He's not worth your time to worry about. The negativity you're allowing to fester in yourself by fretting over this bozo will not improve your life in any way. Quite the contrary.

No more consideration. No more discussion or gossip. Drop it.

Sure it's hard. Just change the subject. You seriously don't want to bother with any more news about it. His opinions are crackpot enough, why bother worrying over them? His followers' opinions that are reflecting his own are also simply mindless ranting, so why concern yourself with that, either?

HE IS NOTHING TO YOU. Get it through your head. Get over it. Move on.

As I said before, there are likely many other churches and religious organizations in your community. Maybe try Methodism. They aren't usually in the news.

I must admit, I am finding it very hard to "drop it". I am still hurt and still angry.

Our little girl still attends "dayschool" at our church twice a week. I won't go to the church anymore, but my hubby takes her in the mornings and picks her up in the evenings. The lady who runs the dayschool is an active member of our church....and although she is nice to us, I can't help wonder what she really thinks about us.

Several of the children in the dayschool are not a part of the church. It's ok to attend and not be a member. Julia has some little friends in her class that we hate to do anything to end.

I don't know how long we will keep letting her go there. It's her birthday this coming weekend and we had really wanted a nice birthday party with her friends from church and dayschool....but we feel unsure that any of them will come. We don't want Julia hurt.:(

[Ruby]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
I agree with Evildave. One more thing: Following that good advice is gonna hurt, temporarily. You have been part of a group, and that group has been an imprtant part of your life. Leaving it behind will geve you a feeling of loss. If you have no knowledge of grief processes, I suggest you get a book about it and read it.

You have a regular grief process to go through, and knowing a bit about it will help you tackle it.

Good luck!
Hans:)

I have definitely been feeling as if I am grieving!!:(

[LuxFerum]

good luck.
:rub:

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by evildave
Maybe try Methodism. They aren't usually in the news.

Most Presbyterian churches are pretty good too. Find out if they support allowing gay pastors and you'll know if they're the liberal or conservative type.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by LuxFerum
good luck.
:rub:

Thanks!!!!!!:D

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer


Most Presbyterian churches are pretty good too. Find out if they support allowing gay pastors and you'll know if they're the liberal or conservative type.

Yep. I considered visiting a Methodist church this past Sunday, but starting panicking about it and did not go. I realized I am not even ready or willing for now to visit a church.:(

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Ruby


Yep. I considered visiting a Methodist church this past Sunday, but starting panicking about it and did not go. I realized I am not even ready or willing for now to visit a church.:(

Church Smurch I say. Love, respect and faith are where your friends and family are.

[hgc]

Originally posted by Ruby


I must admit, I am finding it very hard to "drop it". I am still hurt and still angry.

Our little girl still attends "dayschool" at our church twice a week. I won't go to the church anymore, but my hubby takes her in the mornings and picks her up in the evenings. The lady who runs the dayschool is an active member of our church....and although she is nice to us, I can't help wonder what she really thinks about us.

Several of the children in the dayschool are not a part of the church. It's ok to attend and not be a member. Julia has some little friends in her class that we hate to do anything to end.

I don't know how long we will keep letting her go there. It's her birthday this coming weekend and we had really wanted a nice birthday party with her friends from church and dayschool....but we feel unsure that any of them will come. We don't want Julia hurt.:(
It's sickening and heartbreaking to consider how your children can become entangled in this craziness. As I was reading your post, my first inclination was to scream "get your kid out of there!" But, then considering that she has friends that she wouldn't want to be ripped away from, it's more complicated than that. Then the threat of having friends withheld from her birthday party is really disturbing. I hope that doesn't happen, but I can unfortunately believe that some vicious lunatics (billiefan2000) would use children as pawns in their spiritual power-plays.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by hgc

It's sickening and heartbreaking to consider how your children can become entangled in this craziness. As I was reading your post, my first inclination was to scream "get your kid out of there!" But, then considering that she has friends that she wouldn't want to be ripped away from, it's more complicated than that. Then the threat of having friends withheld from her birthday party is really disturbing. I hope that doesn't happen, but I can unfortunately believe that some vicious lunatics (billiefan2000) would use children as pawns in their spiritual power-plays.

Yes, that happens!!:mad:

Inside, I am also thinking I need to get my little girl the heck out of the dayschool. She is only four.......so I wonder if it will not be as traumatic on here to lose her little friends. It's just that she loves going to "class". Then there is her birthday.

I don't know what we will do!!! :(

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer


Church Smurch I say. Love, respect and faith are where your friends and family are.

:D

[ntech]

Originally posted by Ruby


Yes, that happens!!:mad:

Inside, I am also thinking I need to get my little girl the heck out of the dayschool. She is only four.......so I wonder if it will not be as traumatic on here to lose her little friends. It's just that she loves going to "class". Then there is her birthday.

I don't know what we will do!!! :(

Ruby
I imagine that you are paying for the class or you are as entitled as the rest. You simply have to stop caring what people think and you can walk with your head high into any room. You leave your daughter in if you like and if she moves on after the session then fine. Our children both have birthdays in July so it is always hard to get children to come because it is prime vacation season. We invited the whole class last year for my daughter and ended up with four little girls as guests. My daughter and her guests had a great time. This year we simply had the children choose all the activities for the day of their birthday.

My wife will attest that I could care less what people think of me. I simply try to be a good husband, good father and moral person. That is all I can do. I care only what my family thinks of me. Those who really know me are all that count. No one else has that right.
Ray-ntech

[Roadtoad]

Something you may want to consider, Ruby:

This is not the time for you to go out searching for another church. You have been burnt so very badly, and by a cultic church no less. It will take you time to get the evil juju out of your heart and mind. Please, as a fellow Christian, just sit it out for a bit, and chill. You shouldn't get yourself up to be hurt again. Because given what you've been through, you're almost sure to set yourself up to do just that.

Evil Dave (as usual, dammit) is correct. Anything you say to these people will be taken and twisted and used against you. Break it off, and leave them behind. I've done the letter writing bit, and believe you me, that was one of the biggest mistakes I ever made. Don't do it. You're done with them. If they aren't done with you, well... F*** 'em if they can't take a joke.

(Sorry, I probably shouldn't have said that....)

As to what to do on Sundays: Why not go have a taco?

[SFB]

Originally posted by Roadtoad As to what to do on Sundays: Why not go have a taco?


:D

[Ruby]

Originally posted by ntech


Ruby
I imagine that you are paying for the class or you are as entitled as the rest. You simply have to stop caring what people think and you can walk with your head high into any room. You leave your daughter in if you like and if she moves on after the session then fine. Our children both have birthdays in July so it is always hard to get children to come because it is prime vacation season. We invited the whole class last year for my daughter and ended up with four little girls as guests. My daughter and her guests had a great time. This year we simply had the children choose all the activities for the day of their birthday.

My wife will attest that I could care less what people think of me. I simply try to be a good husband, good father and moral person. That is all I can do. I care only what my family thinks of me. Those who really know me are all that count. No one else has that right.
Ray-ntech

My hubby is like that too. I worry too much.

We are paying for the classes. Not all the little children who attend the class come to our church. I won't go near the church, but my hubby takes our little girl to class twice a week...as well as picks her up.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
Something you may want to consider, Ruby:

This is not the time for you to go out searching for another church. You have been burnt so very badly, and by a cultic church no less. It will take you time to get the evil juju out of your heart and mind. Please, as a fellow Christian, just sit it out for a bit, and chill. You shouldn't get yourself up to be hurt again. Because given what you've been through, you're almost sure to set yourself up to do just that.

Evil Dave (as usual, dammit) is correct. Anything you say to these people will be taken and twisted and used against you. Break it off, and leave them behind. I've done the letter writing bit, and believe you me, that was one of the biggest mistakes I ever made. Don't do it. You're done with them. If they aren't done with you, well... F*** 'em if they can't take a joke.

(Sorry, I probably shouldn't have said that....)

As to what to do on Sundays: Why not go have a taco?

Yep, I am definitely going to have to have just chill. I start getting panicky when I think of trying to visit a church.:rolleyes: