Carl Sagan and Richard Dawkin's philosophy, brainwashers or truth? [Archive]

muscleman

9th February 2003, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by bangdazap
Who created god?

IF GOD CREATED THE UNIVERSE,
THEN WHO CREATED GOD?

Bob, a computer-engineer scientist engineered a 7-inch artificially intelligent robot, capable of judgment & learning independently. He also engineered a city made out of iron as big as a football stadium. The scientist can see the robot 200 feet above, but it can’t see him for its vision is limited to 20 feet.

Years past, all the robot learned is machine stadium & self. The robot was skeptic & said, “Did someone engineered me or was I engineered by Luck (accident, chance, etc.)?” The scientist in hearing these spoke to the robot’s computer chip brain through a walkie-talkie & said “Mr. Bob engineered you my friend”, robot replied, “Well if Bob engineered me, who engineered Bob?” the scientist replied “Bob cannot be engineered. You don’t understand”, the robot then said, “Through my observation & study (science) Bob is either engineered or he doesn’t exist” Bob being aware of robot’s limited intellect said, “Bob is, he is who is. Bob cannot be engineered, Bob’s kingdom is not in your world.”

Dan painted a living imaginary girl. Dan placed the living painting on a picture frame in his garage surrounded by nothing else but paints, paint floor, roof, wall, etc. as an art exhibit. The only thing other than paints in his garage is the wood frame. The painting observed &studied what’s around her. She can see paints around her, thus she knows she came from paint. The farthest she can see is the wood frame, because its unreachable, she assume the wood is some sort of paint, for paint is all she knows.

Years past, the painting was skeptic & said, “Did someone painted me or was I painted through Luck (accident, chance, etc.)?” Dan in hearing these spoke through the door crack & said “I painted you my friend”, painting replied “Well if you painted me, who painted you?” Dan replied, “I cannot be painted. Your world is not my world. You don’t understand,” the painting then said “Through my observation & study your either painted or you don’t exist” Dan knowing the painting is only exposed of paints but never of biology said to the painting “I just am as I am. I cannot be painted, my kingdom is not in your world.”

You see we believe only in existence of the tangible physical world. Through human observation & study, we are able to use the big bang theory, how life evolved, etc. This is human Biological understanding. The Big Bang, atom transformed into a cell, etc. whatever the theory is, that’s our understanding, God is beyond human understanding. We as a tangible physicality cannot relate to the spirit world, therefore we don’t understand God who is Spirit. That’s right u heard me, we cannot understand what we don’t relate to.
Even if the creator of the painting & robot revealed themselves to the creation, the robot & painting may hear it, but will not b able to relate to it. A robot brought out in the machine world was never exposed to the biological world, despite hearing it the robot will never relate to it, therefore the Robot will never understand it, that goes for the painting as well.

God revealed Himself to us to fit accordingly to our weak and transitory understanding. God is spirit. God is the Word became flesh, through the Word all came to be, & without the word nothing came to be (in other words through intelligence life existed), He is the light of the world, as everything existed through light, He is Word incarnate. Yahweh, Jehovah, Abba, etc. Can we understand God’s existence? Do we understand all this? Do we understand spirit? Were in the world of tangible physicality, we can never relate to Spirit, the existence of God; as a machine can never relate to the biological world.

So who created God the creator?

What kind of answer do u want? Physical products? Electrons protons/neutrons, amino acids, etc? Biological? Remember, God is Spirit- John. Spirit created tangible Physicality, God created the world. Why do u want physical understanding as an answer to the spirit? Should I give worldly understanding as an answer to the creator of the world? How can the worldly products create God who created the product of the world?

Alligator caused alligator bite marks. The foot caused footsteps. Engineers caused engineering, atheist caused atheism, designers caused designs, artist caused art, and Life giver caused life...

Can the existence of effect be used to explain the existence of the cause? How can you use the existence of a footprint (a mark on soil) as an explanation of the foot’s existence…nevertheless the body that holds the foot? How can u use a dog bite mark as an explanation of the dog’s creation? How can you use a creation as an explanation for the creator? I can state many analogies (maybe hundreds) that prove it’s impossible to use the creation as an explanation for its creator. For example, the existence and engineering creation of APPLE Mac computer cannot be used to explain the existence and biological creation of Bill Gates. Can you give one analogy that proves a creation can b used to explain its creator? Not at all!

What do I know about the creation of Spirit? Nothing! It’s like trying to physically prove to u what Ghost are made out of. Carbon monoxide? Hydrogen? These are all products of the world. I know God exist, but I don’t know how He exists.

Final answer is I cannot understand my creator. God may have a cause, but do I know what and how? Who can understand the mystery of God? Perhaps we may never find the answer to that question…Just because something can’t be explained, does it mean it’s a myth? So because u cannot explain what the black hole is, therefore black hole is a myth right? Or because u cannot explain how to cure cancer therefore cancer is a myth? I cannot explain homosexuals, so they r myth right? Is it visual? Because I cannot see oxygen therefore oxygen is a myth? Because I cannot see gas therefore gas is a myth? Because I cannot see gravity therefore gravity is a myth? I cannot see atom therefore atom is a myth? Because I cannot see what’s behind my wall, whatever is behind my wall is a myth? Because I cannot see 23 miles away from my city, therefore whatever is there is a myth? Is it taste & odor? Because I cannot see, feel, taste, smell the odorless tasteless poisonous gas, therefore it’s a myth? Because I cannot taste & smell the date rape drug, therefore it’s a myth? Because I cannot see, feel, taste, or smell your thoughts, therefore thoughts r myth? Because I cannot physically taste, or smell, or see your emotions, therefore emotions are myth? Because I have not seen, tasted, smelled, felt King Henry, Queen Elizabeth, Shakespeare, etc. therefore they r myth? So if you’re a dog, color blind, u would think color is a myth, but does the failure of your senses change facts? Is it about your 5 senses? I thought it’s about factual reality? If the 9 yrs old child have no idea how his father came into this world, does it mean his father is a myth? Do u feel me? I cannot explain child molesters, homosexuals, cancers, black hole, etc. & I cannot see or smell & taste atom, King Henry, Gas, Gravity, etc. & I don’t claim to understand God. But I know through solid logic factual evidence they all exist, Period.

My personal belief is that nothing Caused God for he is the causer and the creator cannot be created. (Don’t say I violate the principle of causality, I didn’t because through observation and study, that principle is applied to biological and technological existence, existence of the observed, not to the inaccessible “Spirit”, spirit ‘may’ have no need of cause but has always existed). I may have no scientific proof to believe that God is the truth, but neither does the atheist for claiming He is a liar, atheist people lied so many times because of that I have no reason to believe and put faith in both the immoral lawless atheism and atheists people.

muscleman

9th February 2003, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by Whodini
----
I post this to type what is the best argument you got from this guys to discredit the existence of God.. Post them whatever it is..
----

No uncontroversial, clear physical evidence?

What do u mean by physical evidence? What you donot see, touch, and detect? If you havent heard it, then it dont exist? If u havent seen it, then it don exist? If technologies cant detect it, then it dont exist?

Explain child....And Ill get back at you with these....

Lord Kenneth

9th February 2003, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by muscleman

What do u mean by physical evidence? What you donot see, touch, and detect? If you havent heard it, then it dont exist? If u havent seen it, then it don exist? If technologies cant detect it, then it dont exist?

Explain child....And Ill get back at you with these....

No, you have no justification for thinking something exists without ANY evidence to show it.

Otherwise, you are just playing make belief. Sure, it may be right, but no evidence for a claim such as God is as far as we can go to show it doesn't exist-- which DOES NOT weaken the atheist position.

evildave

9th February 2003, 10:33 AM

So, I take it a simple and consise definition for the term "God" is not forthcomming.

Well, if people want to discuss things without definitions, that's fine.

The flubrick guhdinged your flarb. It didn't flabur your guflanner. Then it sparfed a gazingoid and moofled.

9th February 2003, 10:36 AM

----
If you havent heard it, then it dont exist? If u havent seen it, then it don exist? If technologies cant detect it, then it dont exist?
----

No, if I haven't seen or heard something, it can still exist.

But if anyone hasn't, then that is another story.

rachaella

9th February 2003, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by evildave
The flubrick guhdinged your flarb. It didn't flabur your guflanner. Then it sparfed a gazingoid and moofled.

It didn't moofle! Damn guzzible. It flugharted.

Supercharts

9th February 2003, 10:50 AM

The Challenge of Thor
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

I AM the God Thor,
I am the War God,
I am the Thunderer!
Here in my Northland,
My fastness and fortress,
Reign I forever!
Here amid icebergs
Rule I the nations;
This is my hammer,
Miölner the mighty;
Giants and sorcerers
Cannot withstand it!

These are the gauntlets
Wherewith I wield it,
And hurl it afar off;
This is my girdle;
Whenever I brace it,
Strength is redoubled!

The light thou beholdest
Stream through the heavens,
In flashes of crimson,
Is but my red beard
Blown by the night-wind,
Affrighting the nations!
Jove is my brother;
Mine eyes are the lightning;
The wheels of my chariot
Roll in the thunder,
The blows of my hammer
Ring in the earthquake!

Force rules the world still,
Has ruled it, shall rule it;
Meekness is weakness,
Strength is triumphant,
Over the whole earth
Still is it Thor's-Day!

Thou art a God too,
O Galilean!
And thus singled-handed
Unto the combat,
Gauntlet or Gospel,
Here I defy thee!

Sagan and Dawkins have never disproved Thor. Dawkins avoids discussing Thor because he knows he can't prove a thing.

muscleman

9th February 2003, 11:07 AM

Atheist will say "If God is not fake because u want proof he is, then prove to me tooth fairies/unicorns/ OR "THOR" don’t hover around earth every night".

Smart Christian will say "A claim can b proven fake by lack of evidence. What evidence do u have of tooth fairy? How many eyewitnesses? Millions? If tooth fairies plucked out a teeth, is there any scientific investigation done to it?/ If so can u show it? How many testified? Show me healing, supernatural/miracles documented in the name of tooth fairy. How many died for tooth fairy to verify its value? / Thousands? Is there a Historical location of it? If so, where? Give up? Well tooth fairy because of its lack of evidence is fake. Period...

I hear alot of "toothfairy" and "giant purple squid monkey" or "THOR" being thrown around here and there in an attempt to disprove the existence of God...But why do atheists even use the word "SIX BREASTED DOMINATRIX FROM JUPITER" or giant purple squid monkey and claim to base their belief in scientific research?

Check this...Let us observe why atheists use "giant purple squid monkey" or "toothfairy" so many times in order to disprove God..

1.) Toothfairy contains no scientifical evidence, no historical logical location, no testimonial evidence...

2.) As a result, it gives them that "FEELING" that since it is illogic to believe in toothfairies which to them contains no evidence, then why should they believe in God? How is God any different??

There is alot of errors concerning this claims...First and foremost, existence of toothfairy claim & giant purple squid monkey cannot be used as analogy to the existence of God...

If u use toothfairy as analogy to the existence of God, then u should have no problem providing the same valid evidence as there is for God...

1.) Show me how many are martyred in the name of toothfairy....

2.) Show many how many churches built in the name of toothfairy...

3.) How many believers of the existence of toothfairy? MILLIONS? Are they professors? University Grads? Presidents? JUST TO CLARIFY IT, DONT USE INSANE, RETARDED, DRUG ADDICTS AS A REFFERENCE, OR 6 YRS OLD KIDS, THAT DOESNT GIVE THE SAME ANALOGICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD....

Using toothfairy and Giant purple squidmonkey as analogy to God is like saying "WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE A CAR CAN RUN AS FAST AS 60 MPH? MIGHT AS WELL BELIEVE A TOOTHPICK RUNS JUST AS FAST AS WELL..."

ITS STUPID, toothpick doesnt have an engine, doesnt have a wheel, etc. therefore u cant use toothpick as analogy to a car...In the same way u cant use toothfairy as analogy concerning the existence of God...Even if you can find ways to use science to prove the existence of toothfairies (though unlikely), u still cant use it as analogy to God unless of course u can provide the same amount of evidence....
-----------------------------------------------------------------

So what is the lesson here? That atheists based their beliefs on feelings and emotions as well...

I can understand many peeps became atheists bcus they reject miracles, effects of faith, testimonial evidence, historical evidence, etc... As a result of their denial, it had a great effect on them psychologically... In a way they are brainwashing themselves.. So its so easy for them to use toothfairy as analogy to God, because they see no evidence of God, the same way they see no evidence of toothfairy, NOT THAT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF GOD, THERE IS, BUT THEY ARE IN COMPLETE DENIAL, THUS BRAINWASHING THEMSELVES, A real hard effect on them psychologically, making them an atheist...

in summary: YOU CANNOT USE "TOOTHFAIRY" OR 6 BREASTED DOMINATRIX FROM JUPITER AS ANALOGY TO GOD, BECAUSE THAT IS LIKE USING A TOOTHPICK AS ANALOGY TO A CAR.....GOT IT ? ----------------------------------------------------------

Once again, In case you didnt get it...I will type it AGAIN (as always..)...A claim can be proven fake by lack of evidence......

It is important to use testiomy as an evidence when making analogy concerning God, bcuz thats part of God, having followers and all...

When Mark McGuire took creatine, because the guy is muscular, everyone else wants to take creatine........When Michael Jordan uses Nike and he claimed that the shoe helped him jump high, AND BECAUSE HE JUMPS HIGH, that evidence made many people who wants to jump high buy Nike.....But of course this is just an analogy and we both know that they are PAID $$$ to say this, and it can be a lie FOR $$$ IS A GOOD REASON TO LIE....

This is the same thing as the apostles, while you believe that they are liars, I believe they are genuine....
I see no gain for the apostles to lie, they were stoned, mocked, persecuted, and at the end tortured to death, thats the opposite of what a person would do when lying. Now of course if the apostles got $$$ millions of cash and gold, women, good attention, etc...Then I see a possibility of them as a liar....And in addition to that, THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS (MAYBE MILLIONS) FOLLOWED THEIR EXAMPLES AND WERE MARTYRED AS WELL FOR THEIR FAITH (Want 2 bring out suicidal bombing if that is considered martyrdom?).....

muscleman

9th February 2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by pgwenthold

1) I really know very little about what either of them have said, (Didn't Sagan say "Billions and billions..."?) so it is silly to claim that I have been brainwashed by them. Strawman down the tubes.

2) God who?

Who is God(s), which God? Read below and educate yourself a little bit amateur....

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13530

muscleman

9th February 2003, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by Dark Cobra

No, you have no justification for thinking something exists without ANY evidence to show it.

Otherwise, you are just playing make belief. Sure, it may be right, but no evidence for a claim such as God is as far as we can go to show it doesn't exist-- which DOES NOT weaken the atheist position.

I have an evidence of God.. But this is not the post for it.. This thred is started to DEBUNK ALL of Richard's arguments, or Sagans..

MY MISSION IS TO DEBUNK ALL OF ATHEISTS ARGUMENT (So far, almost all youur arguments are flawed already, LOL) AFTER THEN, ILL POST THE EVIDENCE OF GOD....ILL HAVE TO FIRST DESTROY EVERY SILLY ARGUMENTS YOU HAVE FIRST BEFORE I START THAT THREAD.......

Filippo Lippi

9th February 2003, 11:22 AM

I'm getting deja vu

Supercharts

9th February 2003, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by muscleman
But why do atheists even use the word "SIX BREASTED DOMINATRIX FROM JUPITER" ...

We don't need the "Six Breasted Dominatrix from Jupiter" - we have the "Succubus from Coon Rapids". [Please pay attention...thanks :D ]

Dub

9th February 2003, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by muscleman

I have an evidence of God.. But this is not the post for it.. This thred is started to DEBUNK ALL of Richard's arguments, or Sagans..

MY MISSION IS TO DEBUNK ALL OF ATHEISTS ARGUMENT (So far, almost all youur arguments are flawed already, LOL) AFTER THEN, ILL POST THE EVIDENCE OF GOD....ILL HAVE TO FIRST DESTROY EVERY SILLY ARGUMENTS YOU HAVE FIRST BEFORE I START THAT THREAD.......

You have evidence of the existence of God but you wont post it...Sure you do. I have the instructions on how to build a perpetual motion machine, but im not going to post it.

Muscleman, you are an atheist. You just believe in one more God than me. If you can explain why you dont believe in everyother God man has invented youll see why I dont believe in yours.

Is there something that makes people who believe in God have to use caps lock all the time?

Filippo Lippi

9th February 2003, 11:56 AM

Muscleman has debunked nothing, yet he's already high-fiving himself and running a lap of honour round his PC.

Underemployed

9th February 2003, 12:10 PM

Dear Muscleman,

OK, you've convinced me! Definitely a God exists...

But which God? A Christian God? A benevolent God?

You argue passionately for His existence. You offer testimonials, martyrs, churches as part of your proof. Great! But what makes you think your God is the one that exists, and not Thor, Krishna, Cthulhu? Why are they all wrong and you are right?

You say He is Spirit. You say He is the God of the Christian Bible, which includes all testament-based religions. Go to India and Pakistan and see how many 'churches' and martyrs there are for Vishnu, Ganesh and Rama. Read up on the temples and sacrifices to Quetzalcoatl. Any religion with a few followers behind it can also claim buildings and people who died ofr their beliefs. I say again, why are they all wrong and you are right?

If there is a God, what makes you think He is kind and loving? Maybe He is what we would term 'evil' and is just biding His time before destroying us all for no apparent reason. Oh wait - that is exactly what the Bible says anyway! (See Revelations)

All of your arguments are made of assumptions about things we don't know. Science (and atheism) is made up of assumptions about things we do know. I will take knowledge over ignorance any day. These are Dawkins and Sagans' positions on religion and also mine.

justsaygnosis

9th February 2003, 12:18 PM

Maybe skydaddy and the goddess will make whoopy and we'll have a new deity to deal with.
And we all live happily ever after.

The Central Scrutinizer

9th February 2003, 12:20 PM

Are we getting close to recipe time yet???

pgwenthold

9th February 2003, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by muscleman

Who is God(s), which God? Read below and educate yourself a little bit amateur....

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13530

OK, I looked at the thread. If you are calling a cow or someone's girlfriend "God," then I agree that this God exists. However, when you got to the "God of Abraham" you lost it.

First of all, what is your evidence that the "God of Abraham" actually exists? Because people worship it? Sorry, that's not sufficient. But even after that, you still have problems.

"How is the God of Abraham the real God? ...Because His ways are the right way to live, proper way of living, civilized manner,"

This claim is easily contradicted by any reasonable conception of "right way to live."

The God of Abraham is the one who says, according to 1 Sam 15:2 - 3

"2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

This God of Abraham orders the Israelites to smite Amalek, because they had gotten in the way of their Exodus from Egypt 400 years before. Not only that, but because the Great^20 grandfathers of the Amalekites had gotten in the way of the Israelites back then, the God of Abraham orders the Israelites to kill their men, women, infants, sucklings, ox, sheep, camels, and asses! Is killing babies the civilized way to conduct war (aside from the fact that the war is justified on the basis of the activities of their long, long, long dead ancestors).

Clearly it is not. Hence, your claim that the "God of Abraham" is the real God because his ways are the right ways to live must be false.

evildave

9th February 2003, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by muscleman

Who is God(s), which God? Read below and educate yourself a little bit amateur....

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13530

Still no definition of god.

Funny thing, he never answers any of my questions, reasonable as they are.

I guess he's looking for somebody who's operating far beneath his level; somewhere between second and third grade in primary school, possibly.

Same sort of goes for Franko, Wraith, et al. It's sort of an intended insult when they pay attention to you, and respect when they ignore you. "I fear where he'll take it if I give a straight answer, so I'll pretend I didn't notice the question."

But here, to stay on topic, I'll even give my opinion about why Richard Dawkins and Carl Sagan are popular with atheists. They're unapologetic in their approach.

There is no reason to give an obnoxious theist the "benefit of the doubt", especially not for those who are prone to use their minute at the podium to foment hatred and bigotry in the name of ignorance.

I reached the conclusions (re: religion) that Sagan and Dawkins, and many before them reached independently of their input. Obviously it's not "brainwashing" if anybody can come up with the answer for themselves. It's more like "truth", but not precisely. Anybody can derive any "truths" they like, given improperly selected inputs. "Truth" is a loaded term. We have religious "truth", which is a bunch of ipse dixit nonsense which is both "eternal" and changed regularly. Then we have scientific truths that can be tested/verified/debunked by anyone. Finally, we have the "truth" that's stuck on the end of this topic title, as a hook, attached to a long line of something or other.

Unlike religions, there has seldom been people out there that are trivially accessible to the general public to speak out loudly and clearly against religion. It's just nice to see people who are more eloquent than I express the same ideas. And it's awfully nice to have so many atheistic resources to draw on from the Internet that can't be automatically supressed by book burning theists "checking them out" from the library and disposing of them to "protect me".

Quick Burritos:
Lean two tortillas together on a paper plate. Scoop chili from the can, and add some shredded cheese. Nuke for less than a minute, or until cheese melts. Add any veggies, wrap, serve.

9th February 2003, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by cavin
whodini needs to make some friends....
come on a nice girl to take to Portland for the weekend.
relax, aren't classes enought to fill up your time?

Uh, ok.

Interesting- I'm not even the subject of this thread, yet you are fascinated by me.

9th February 2003, 12:54 PM

----
How many died for tooth fairy to verify its value?
----

Death for something doesn't mean that something is valuable.

----
I see no gain for the apostles to lie,
----

Money and influence?

Or, maybe they weren't lieing, but they were just mistaken.

evildave

9th February 2003, 01:00 PM

Or maybe they told the truth, but in the intervening centuries between the apostles giving their accounts, and a lot of "playing telephone" with the stories across the generations, through various splinters of Christianity, which eventually found their way into a "Standard Bible", a few "little details" got munged. And then you get those zany Protestants who immediately cut a bunch of "Sacred Truth" out of the book, and later cut some of the racy "Sacred Truth" out, then put some back in....

Supercharts

9th February 2003, 01:51 PM

I wouldn't know what to do with the Tooth Fairy but if I was confronted with a Turkey:

1. TO REMOVE LEG (thigh or second joint and drumstick). Hold the drumstick firmly with fingers, pulling gently away from turkey body. At the same time cut through skin between leg and body.

Megalodon

9th February 2003, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by Supercharts
I wouldn't know what to do with the Tooth Fairy but if I was confronted with a Turkey:

1. TO REMOVE LEG (thigh or second joint and drumstick). Hold the drumstick firmly with fingers, pulling gently away from turkey body. At the same time cut through skin between leg and body.

Same thing with the toothfairy, just less feathers to deal with ;)

9th February 2003, 02:29 PM

For tasty pizza bread:

Very lightly toast two slices of wheat bread

spread a generous helping of pasta sauce on one half, and cut up chedder cheese for the other half.

Sprinkle with parmesan and some olives, then microwave for 30 seconds, or until the cheese is melted.

muscleman

9th February 2003, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by Underemployed
Dear Muscleman,

OK, you've convinced me! Definitely a God exists...

But which God? A Christian God? A benevolent God?

You argue passionately for His existence. You offer testimonials, martyrs, churches as part of your proof. Great! But what makes you think your God is the one that exists, and not Thor, Krishna, Cthulhu? Why are they all wrong and you are right?

You say He is Spirit. You say He is the God of the Christian Bible, which includes all testament-based religions. Go to India and Pakistan and see how many 'churches' and martyrs there are for Vishnu, Ganesh and Rama. Read up on the temples and sacrifices to Quetzalcoatl. Any religion with a few followers behind it can also claim buildings and people who died ofr their beliefs. I say again, why are they all wrong and you are right?

If there is a God, what makes you think He is kind and loving? Maybe He is what we would term 'evil' and is just biding His time before destroying us all for no apparent reason. Oh wait - that is exactly what the Bible says anyway! (See Revelations)

All of your arguments are made of assumptions about things we don't know. Science (and atheism) is made up of assumptions about things we do know. I will take knowledge over ignorance any day. These are Dawkins and Sagans' positions on religion and also mine.

Who is God? Which God? Which religion? Which church? Read the post below and edcuate yurself, IF YOUR REALLY INTERESTED THAT IS.....If yur still unsatisfied, u can come back here and ask me some more......:)

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=13530

muscleman

9th February 2003, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by pgwenthold

OK, I looked at the thread. If you are calling a cow or someone's girlfriend "God," then I agree that this God exists. However, when you got to the "God of Abraham" you lost it.

First of all, what is your evidence that the "God of Abraham" actually exists? Because people worship it? Sorry, that's not sufficient. But even after that, you still have problems.

"How is the God of Abraham the real God? ...Because His ways are the right way to live, proper way of living, civilized manner,"

This claim is easily contradicted by any reasonable conception of "right way to live."

The God of Abraham is the one who says, according to 1 Sam 15:2 - 3

"2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

This God of Abraham orders the Israelites to smite Amalek, because they had gotten in the way of their Exodus from Egypt 400 years before. Not only that, but because the Great^20 grandfathers of the Amalekites had gotten in the way of the Israelites back then, the God of Abraham orders the Israelites to kill their men, women, infants, sucklings, ox, sheep, camels, and asses! Is killing babies the civilized way to conduct war (aside from the fact that the war is justified on the basis of the activities of their long, long, long dead ancestors).

Clearly it is not. Hence, your claim that the "God of Abraham" is the real God because his ways are the right ways to live must be false.

Your taking things out of context. Maybe the God in the old testament seemed cruel, but that is not all there is ot it, he is also forgiving to those who seek forgiveness.

Now about slaughtering ox, sheep, cows (their dearest possesion in their heart..) God wished that it will b destroyed because it takes away the worship that is due to him...

For at the time, the most precious possesion they have are goats, cows, etc. in which they make songs dedicated to it, worship it, and treasure it (the same way we do to some materials today..). God is a jealous God bcuz he loves us dearly..

Now about slaughtering children..

It is best for those children to be slaughtered (for their soul will be safer.) than for them to be starving to death...For surely the jews will not take care of them for they themselves are under attack and outnumbered. Abraham's own people are full of sins and greed, that I really doubt that out of their free-will they will raise the philistine children JUSTLY and EQUALLY when they themselves are being treated like slaves. Maybe God just dont wish that the kids wont grow up as slaves........

Now thats my opinion... However, it is important to observe the situation instead of taking things out of context. Just learn that the Kingdom of God can be likened to a mustard seed, it starts out really small but when matures, it is so huge that birds of the air dwells at it with their nest... The church then may have been ignorant about God (as kids doesnt know much about their parents at age 4) but the church overtime learns...

Occasional Chemist

9th February 2003, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by muscleman
I made this post, because I realized alot of the atheists are brainwashed by the 2 above. I say "brainwashed" because they dont have the intellect to see their flawed arguments, because of that, they become an atheist...

I certainly can't speak for all atheists, but I think you'll find that most of us " became" atheists long before we had any contacts with the works of either Sagan or Dawkins.

In my case, for example, I've never read anything by Dawkins and my atheism predated my first exposure to any of Sagan's writings by twenty years (or more).

I find Sagan more interesting for his views on science than on religion.

edited to correct a typo

c4ts

9th February 2003, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by muscleman
I made this post, because I realized alot of the atheists are brainwashed by the 2 above. I say "brainwashed" because they dont have the intellect to see their flawed arguments, because of that, they become an atheist...

I post this to type what is the best argument you got from this guys to discredit the existence of God.. Post them whatever it is..So I can point to you the problem with it which you guys FAILED to see......

I'm sure you have plenty of preconstructed arguments to spew at us... so let me ask you this:

What do advertisements, politicians, and religious arguments have in common?

Tricky

9th February 2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist
I certainly can't speak for all athiests, but I think you'll find that most of us " became" atheists long before we had any contacts with the works of either Sagan or Dawkins.

In my case, for example, I've never read anything by Dawkins and my atheism predated my first exposure to any of Sagan's writings by twenty years (or more).

I agree with Occasional Chemist and I too was an atheist long before exposure to these scientists. The book that had the most influence on me becoming an atheist was The Bible.

muscleman

9th February 2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by evildave

Still no definition of god.

Funny thing, he never answers any of my questions, reasonable as they are.

There are so many questions here posted for me. So far I have not seen u post one in which I didnt respond too and maybe I just missed it..

Now why dont u post the so-called question in which I didnt answer to so I can deal with it..

Occasional Chemist

9th February 2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by muscleman

It is best for those children to be slaughtered (for their soul will be safer.) than for them to be starving to death...

Seems like it'd be a whole lot better for these children to have not been created in the first place. I find it fascinating that there are so many hoops that people who want to believe in a loving god have to jump through. :)

muscleman

9th February 2003, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Whodini
----
How many died for tooth fairy to verify its value?
----

Death for something doesn't mean that something is valuable.

So those who died for their rights in America and their freedom died for nothing? Constitution is a myth?

Given the fact that if a person will die for his family, thats because he loves his family and they exist...

If a person died for his country thats because he loves the right in his country and his cxountry exist.

If someone died for God thats because he loves God and he exist.

What about the suicide bombers, are they martyrs? No, bcuz their family were offered money, promised that they will b given money if he blew himself off, WAS UNEDUCATED, and was brainwashed thinking that if he blew himself off, he will go to heaven..

Thats the difference between the brainwashed and the non-brainwashed. They were not given options, never given the chance to learn science/philosophy, etc.

Did they go to hell? No, they are not accountable for the act if they didnt know its a sin to begin with. Unless of course they know its a sin but still did it, but they were brainwashed and didnt know...

What about the heavens gate suicide cult who drink Cyanide? It doesnt count, they were at gunpoint, the leader at the end killed him self. Being forced to die at gun point isnt martyrdom, no conviction there..

JUST LEARN THE SITUATION BEFORE QOUTING THEM....

Originally posted by Whodini
----
----
I see no gain for the apostles to lie,
----

Money and influence?

Or, maybe they weren't lieing, but they were just mistaken.

Aposltes have the vow of poverty, TILL THIS DAY THE FRIARS FOLLOW THAT TRADITION, SO YUR WRONG, THAT OR JUST A FAT LIAR.......

muscleman

9th February 2003, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by Dub

You have evidence of the existence of God but you wont post it...Sure you do. I have the instructions on how to build a perpetual motion machine, but im not going to post it.

I learned that in order to annihilate your belief atheism, I must destroy little parts around it (the minor arguments), then go in for a kill... Believe me, I have it and will post it in few days....Just dont wait, debate with me as of now if u can handle the truth....

Originally posted by Dub

Muscleman, you are an atheist. You just believe in one more God than me. If you can explain why you dont believe in everyother God man has invented youll see why I dont believe in yours.

Is there something that makes people who believe in God have to use caps lock all the time?

Im not an atheist, Im far from believing that the order of nature is "LUCK", you first have to cut off 99% of my brain, even then I probably will still recognize the existence of God...Atheism is a joke, claiming science is a good reason to be an atheist...HAHAHAHA, education in science only made me believe in God the more.......

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened." Sir Winston Churchill-

I agree....

"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet." Napoleon Bonaparte

I agree....

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." Gene Roddenberry

Its more like "Destiny", they go to a place where they belong. Read the omniscient/freewil argument, and educate yourself.....

Taking things out of context.."We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates good Humans, and then reward HIMSELF for his own design."- By me...

There you go, thats more cmplete...LOL, this guys is proposing that we dont have freewill, we are not living, and are like robots and vegetables...WHAT A BRAINWASHED GUY...

"Our ignorance is God; what we know is science."
Robert Ingersoll

Fair enough....

"Nothing can be more contrary to religion than reason and common sense." Voltaire (Philosophical Dictionary, 1764)

Disagree... Voltaire is just an ignorant kid who doesnt know that the catholic church acknowledges scientifical facts from the beggining... Theories are always questionable......

"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration--courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and, above all, love of the truth."
Henry Louis Mencken

what a brainwashed kid.. I say the same thing about atheism....

"If God is all powerful (i.e. infinite power), can he make a puzzle that is so hard he can't solve it?"

What problem? Stupid, life is order, everything is designed....Ignorant kid....

"There is no god to answer prayer. - Man must hear and help man."

Your prayer is a prayer of greed......

"There is no atonement or salvation by faith. - We must face the consequence of our acts."

There is no salvation? U made a claim, now prove it..Oh u cant? then shut your hole liar.....

c4ts

9th February 2003, 03:15 PM

Im not an atheist, Im far from believing that the order of nature is "LUCK", you first have to cut off 99% of my brain, even then I probably will still recognize the existence of God...Atheism is a joke, claiming science is a good reason to be an atheist...HAHAHAHA, education in science only made me believe in God the more.......

Why don't you just answer his question?

Supercharts

9th February 2003, 03:19 PM

The real muscleman:

http://www.puroresu.com/wrestlers/sting/signal990711.html

c4ts

9th February 2003, 03:32 PM

http://www.puroresu.com/wrestlers/sting/signal990711.html

Steve Borden told the crowd that his renewal started as a result of feeling that something was missing from his life, in spite of having 'it all, ' including fame and material wealth.

If he were smarter, he would have found philosophy...

The Central Scrutinizer

9th February 2003, 03:50 PM

Sting used to be one of the top names in the business, then he screwed his life up by becoming a christian.

Vorticity

9th February 2003, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by muscleman

There are so many questions here posted for me. So far I have not seen u post one in which I didnt respond too and maybe I just missed it..

Now why dont u post the so-called question in which I didnt answer to so I can deal with it..
I believe evildave has asked for you to post a definition of the word "God".
After all, as I'm sure you'll agree, it can be tricky to conduct a verbal argument about the existence/nonexistence of "God" unless we define the term, so we know what we are arguing about.
After all, I have met people who define the word "God" to mean "the sum total of physical law" (for example). Most of the people on this board would believe in "God" under that definition. So: given the variability in what different people mean by the word "God", perhaps you should give a definition of what you mean by it, before we spend a lot of time arguing about something we could possibly be in agreement on.
Thanks!

Dub

9th February 2003, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by muscleman

I learned that in order to annihilate your belief atheism, I must destroy little parts around it (the minor arguments), then go in for a kill... Believe me, I have it and will post it in few days....Just dont wait, debate with me as of now if u can handle the truth....

I await your information. You posted this on Sunday, so by Wednesday if you havent posted this 'proof' we'll have you assume your claim is just bullsh*t.

Im not an atheist, Im far from believing that the order of nature is "LUCK", you first have to cut off 99% of my brain, even then I probably will still recognize the existence of God...Atheism is a joke, claiming science is a good reason to be an atheist...HAHAHAHA, education in science only made me believe in God the more.......

You still havent explained why you do not believe in everyother God that has been invented by man. Have you every evern thought why you dont believe in them?

Also, if you think that evolution is 'luck', then you do not understand the theory at all. It is far from luck. Natural selection is just that, a selection process. There are many forces in the environment behind this process including other members of each species, members of different species, the climate, preadator/prey relationship etc. I suggest you read up on the theory of evolution before you make judgements on it.

"There is no atonement or salvation by faith. - We must face the consequence of our acts."

There is no salvation? U made a claim, now prove it..Oh u cant? then shut your hole liar.....

The burden of proof is on you. For something to be disproved it has to have been proved in the first place. Also, that is a quote; not something that I, myself wrote.

You seriously need to learn how to take part in a proper debate. Insults, irrelevant use of CAPSLOCK, etc. This is a very bad attempt to put your case across. People will never repect or even listen to what you're saying if you continue to do it in this manner.

evildave

9th February 2003, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by muscleman

There are so many questions here posted for me. So far I have not seen u post one in which I didnt respond too and maybe I just missed it..

Now why dont u post the so-called question in which I didnt answer to so I can deal with it..

Simple enough:

Define god. In your own terms.

If you believe you already have, feel free to copy and paste it here. So far, all I've seen is evasion on this point.

Khalid01

9th February 2003, 05:21 PM

(So far, almost all youur arguments are flawed already, LOL)
L-O-L INDEED, Muscleman! Your eloquent and CIVIL method of convincing us STUPID ATHEISTS that we are STUPID is ever-so compelling. Your strategic use of the CAPS LOCK key only helps to rebut, erm I mean reinforce you arguments, I AM ROLFING on the floor because I couldn't believe how dumb I was! Oh, and how could one IGNORE your fantastical grammar?! You place us Californians high upon a pedestal, I am PROUD to stand with you! Oh, and your guffawing at us was astonishing, because every good debater laughs and ridicules their opponents! It should be the #1 rule of CIVIL debate!

So those who died for their rights in America and their freedom died for nothing? Constitution is a myth?
Ayup, dying for something that is tangible is dying for nothing, dying for some story in a book is a-ok!

What about the suicide bombers, are they martyrs? No, bcuz their family were offered money, promised that they will b given money if he blew himself off, WAS UNEDUCATED, and was brainwashed thinking that if he blew himself off, he will go to heaven..
Ahhh, I see, all those of palestinians, the indepedent, even teenage suicide bombers must have been given thousands of units of currency before their death, yeah, sure! (Disclaimer: I don't support suicide bombing, or martyrism)

TILL THIS DAY THE FRIARS FOLLOW THAT TRADITION, SO YUR WRONG, THAT OR JUST A FAT LIAR
YAH, WHUDENE(MORE LIKE BLUE-PENI HEHEHE) SI JUS A BIG PHAT LIAR-MAN, HE DONT NO NUTHIN BOUT FRYERS!

God is a jealous God bcuz he loves us dearly
Yes, my friend, and that's exactly what abusively husbands and boyfriends say.

Gee-golly! Is this character for real? I can't quite believe he isn't pulling our proverbial leg, because I actually appreciate Franko more than muscleman! Even if Franko jumps from thread to thread with the same plug, at least he has the decency to communicate effectively. By the way, this post may have a considerable amount of straw and non-sequitur arguments, but that's only to maintain accuracy.

evildave

9th February 2003, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by Whodini
For tasty pizza bread:

Very lightly toast two slices of wheat bread

spread a generous helping of pasta sauce on one half, and cut up chedder cheese for the other half.

Sprinkle with parmesan and some olives, then microwave for 30 seconds, or until the cheese is melted.

That sounds good. I wonder if I could make a pesto pizza bread....

The Fool

9th February 2003, 05:36 PM

thaiboxerken

9th February 2003, 06:03 PM

I never read any works by Sagan or Dawkin's, only the occasional quote which happens to coincide with my views.

evildave

9th February 2003, 06:39 PM

Religion's Misguided Missiles (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4257777,00.html) is a hoot.

muscleman

9th February 2003, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by Dub

I await your information. You posted this on Sunday, so by Wednesday if you havent posted this 'proof' we'll have you assume your claim is just bullsh*t. [/B]

It will come......

Originally posted by Dub

[/b]

You still havent explained why you do not believe in everyother God that has been invented by man. Have you every evern thought why you dont believe in them?[/B]

I never notcied that question earlier, but now i do so ill answer it...
Every knowledge comes from the mind, even science came from our mind, imaginations can progress which in due time (like a seed) reveals itself so others can see...

Again if you have read the post on the thread "Taking your soul back", there are many gods, cars, toothfairies, zeus, etc...But all of them are misleading, they either turn u into a pervert, killer, greedy, etc..

I simply have no faith (trust) in them, or dont believe them because they dont fit the description of a father figure..A Creator, a leader..

The christian God is ordered, ordered as nature. It has good, evil, love, hate, in One God as one person posses all these and we are created in the image of God, justice and perfection. The other claimed Gods donot make sense, BY STUDY THAT IS.

I can understand that there are many kids who can make assumptions about their parents at age 4, some get it right, some get it wrong, those who believe in other faith other than Christian God simply got their creator wrong..

My real father loves me, disciplines me. Teaches me right from wrong, even if it means whipping me to teach a lesson.

But at the same time my father loves me, that he is willing to sacrifice his life to save me..

Tell me, which God do you think that is? Ferrari God? MTV God? Porno God? That sounds like Christian God to me....

"Father I pray that they will be one as you and I are one"- Jesus..

"A new commandment that I give unto you that u love one another as I have loved you"- Jesus...

"Go on to the world and make disciples of all nations, baptize them in the name of the father, son, and the Holy Spirit and know that I will be with u till the end of age"- Jesus..

A real Father DOES NOT discriminate among His children but wishes the best of them all. A real Father wishes all human race to do good and learn of the good news.

Tell me which God does that sound like to you? Sounds like the Christian God to me....

"Tell them that they are wrong about sin and are wrong about God's judgment"- Jesus...

"Mysteries hidden for generations now revealed.."- St. Paul.

This also proves that we progress in knowledge, as a kid matures, so is the kingdom of God like a mustard seed yielding its fruit in due time...
I ONLY BELIEVE IN THE CHRISTIAN GOD BECAUSE WE ARE THE ONLY CHURCH THAT CLAIM THE BIBLE IS FREE OF MORAL ERRORS AND NO CONTRADICTORY, AND IT IS...

MANY ATHEIST THINK THERE ARE MANY CONTRADICTIONS, BUT THEY ARE ALL WRONG, THERES NONE!! SCHOLARS AND PRIEST HAVE STUDIED IT FOR YRS (AS I HAVE AS WELL) IT IS ONLY CONTRADICTING TO YOU GUYS BCUZ YOUR BRAIN IS PUNY, NO WISDOM, NO INTELLECT, FOR KNOWLEDGE COMES FROM GOD...

I CHALLENGE ANYONE OF U TO QUOTE TO ME ANY SO-CALLED BIBLE CONTRADICTION IF IT EXIST..I AM A CATECHIST TEACHER, PERFECT TO DEBATE WITH...

I WILL WAIT FOR IT...

Originally posted by Dub

Also, if you think that evolution is 'luck', then you do not understand the theory at all. It is far from luck. Natural selection is just that, a selection process. There are many forces in the environment behind this process including other members of each species, members of different species, the climate, preadator/prey relationship etc. I suggest you read up on the theory of evolution before you make judgements on it.[/B]

U dont think I know about evolution? About hydrogen, methane, amonia being in the pond, and when struck with lightning, amino acids/proteins are formed and life forms are composed of amino acids.. Dead cells are also composed of amino acids.. This is another topic...

No you got it wrong. I said the order of nature, the physics IT HAPPENED TO BE IN PROPER ORDER OF CREATING LIFE BY "LUCK"..

I have agreed with evolution, thats a WORN out topic...

Originally posted by Dub

The burden of proof is on you. For something to be disproved it has to have been proved in the first place.
[/B]

Once again thats another childish post I hear too many times from kids..There is a proof of God and like I was saying i will post it later......

muscleman

9th February 2003, 09:18 PM

Evildave read my response to Dub, thats the answer your looking for. And you Khalid, your thread is so dumb its not worth responding to. :) Poor guy, bcuz u cant find any flaws in my argument, u then attack my spelling and grammar which I dont care, the only real loser here is you bcuz there are observers on this thread....

evildave

9th February 2003, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by muscleman
Evildave read my response to Dub, thats the answer your looking for. And you Khalid, your thread is so dumb its not worth responding to. :) Poor guy, bcuz u cant find any flaws in my argument, u then attack my spelling and grammar which I dont care, the only real loser here is you bcuz there are observers on this thread....

I learned that in order to annihilate your belief atheism, I must destroy little parts around it (the minor arguments), then go in for a kill... Believe me, I have it and will post it in few days....Just dont wait, debate with me as of now if u can handle the truth....

What, does THAT define god to you?

9th February 2003, 09:41 PM

Nah Musc-man, you aint a bag of chips bub!

I rap at you 24/7/365 with my jive!
CUZ YOU CANT C ME!

The only hat luzer here is YOUR SELF man! Cuz U dnt C me, but I'm 2 legit, 2 legit to quit, HEY HEYYY!

Poor guy, bcuz you are wraith in driggity drag! Now, tell me WHY you are ATHEIST again Mucus man spam!
???

Or doe sit ring too true in the hood?
I'd like you to know thattoo.

Filippo Lippi

9th February 2003, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by muscleman

MANY ATHEIST THINK THERE ARE MANY CONTRADICTIONS, BUT THEY ARE ALL WRONG, THERES NONE!! SCHOLARS AND PRIEST HAVE STUDIED IT FOR YRS (AS I HAVE AS WELL) IT IS ONLY CONTRADICTING TO YOU GUYS BCUZ YOUR BRAIN IS PUNY, NO WISDOM, NO INTELLECT, FOR KNOWLEDGE COMES FROM GOD...

I CHALLENGE ANYONE OF U TO QUOTE TO ME ANY SO-CALLED BIBLE CONTRADICTION IF IT EXIST..I AM A CATECHIST TEACHER, PERFECT TO DEBATE WITH...

Is that how teachers work then? By 'screaming' at their pupils, calling them 'morons?' Not in my experience, I wouldn't let my kids within a hundred miles of you.

Your 'god' gave you knowledge did he? Why didn't he give you the patience and good grace to impart that knowledge to others? The works of Sagan and Dawkins don't end with "IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR BRAIN IS PUNY."

fishbob

10th February 2003, 12:18 AM

If you don't respond to him, he will probably go away.

I thought I was an atheist, but this Six Breasted Dominatrix from Jupiter sect might bear looking into.

Occasional Chemist

10th February 2003, 06:15 AM

Originally posted by Fillipo Lippi
Is that how teachers work then? By 'screaming' at their pupils, calling them 'morons?'

He learned his teaching style from Mr. "Now can I have an answer from someone who isn' t a complete retard?" Garrison on South Park.

pgwenthold

10th February 2003, 06:15 AM

Originally posted by muscleman

Your taking things out of context. Maybe the God in the old testament seemed cruel, but that is not all there is ot it, he is also forgiving to those who seek forgiveness.

Now about slaughtering ox, sheep, cows (their dearest possesion in their heart..) God wished that it will b destroyed because it takes away the worship that is due to him...

Isn't it considered a sin to add things to the bible that are not there?

No it is very clear in the passage I quoted that the reason God ordered the massacre of the ox, sheep, cows, and asses is because the Amelakites opposed the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt 400 years earlier. Any other claims are unsupported by the bible.

For at the time, the most precious possesion they have are goats, cows, etc. in which they make songs dedicated to it, worship it, and treasure it (the same way we do to some materials today..). God is a jealous God bcuz he loves us dearly..

And God fails the logic test.

1) God is a jealous god.
2) God is love
3) Love is not jealous

All three of these are in the bible. They cannot all be true.

It is best for those children to be slaughtered (for their soul will be safer.) than for them to be starving to death...

Why would they starve to death? Why can't God just rain down manna from heaven? Instead of letting self-serving adults to go hungry, Jesus performed a miracle to feed them, and they weren't even in danger of starving!

And you know, if old God hadn't ordered them to kill all their food animals, they wouldn't have been in danger of starving to death in the first place.

Cruel, cruel bastard...

pgwenthold

10th February 2003, 06:22 AM

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist

Seems like it'd be a whole lot better for these children to have not been created in the first place. I find it fascinating that there are so many hoops that people who want to believe in a loving god have to jump through. :)

And I'd like to know how he determined that "starving to death" is worse than have their heads chopped off.

But I really like the part about how God blames the cows, oxen, and asses because the people worship them. You know those oxen, they were probably getting pretty full of themselves, acting all high and mighty...

Filippo Lippi

10th February 2003, 07:19 AM

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

I'm thinking of having some table mats made. They'll look nice, don't you think?

Franko

10th February 2003, 07:25 AM

muscleman:

Evildave read my response to Dub, thats the answer your looking for. And you Khalid, your thread is so dumb its not worth responding to. Poor guy, bcuz u cant find any flaws in my argument, u then attack my spelling and grammar which I dont care, the only real loser here is you bcuz there are observers on this thread....

Ohhh ... I like this graviton ... :)

Dub

10th February 2003, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by muscleman

I never notcied that question earlier, but now i do so ill answer it...
Every knowledge comes from the mind, even science came from our mind, imaginations can progress which in due time (like a seed) reveals itself so others can see...

Again if you have read the post on the thread "Taking your soul back", there are many gods, cars, toothfairies, zeus, etc...But all of them are misleading, they either turn u into a pervert, killer, greedy, etc..

I simply have no faith (trust) in them, or dont believe them because they dont fit the description of a father figure..A Creator, a leader..

The christian God is ordered, ordered as nature. It has good, evil, love, hate, in One God as one person posses all these and we are created in the image of God, justice and perfection. The other claimed Gods donot make sense, BY STUDY THAT IS.

I can understand that there are many kids who can make assumptions about their parents at age 4, some get it right, some get it wrong, those who believe in other faith other than Christian God simply got their creator wrong..

You still havent said why you dont believe in every other God. Saying you "simply have no faith (trust) in them" isnt explaining why you dont have faith in them. Most other Gods are portrayed as a father figure (and they are almost always male). Most Gods by definition are also a creator. Saying they they are "misleading, they either turn u into a pervert, killer, greedy" is just blind prejudicial hate. Do you also think that no christian is a pervert, killer or greedy? Simply saying other religions are "wrong" is not answering the question as to why you dont believe in them. Remeber, people believe in other religions as strongly as you do. Some people have such strong belief in their religion that they will fly planes into skyscrappers. Other Gods obivously do, seem, to make sense to people, by study, as much as you chossen God does to you.

I ONLY BELIEVE IN THE CHRISTIAN GOD BECAUSE WE ARE THE ONLY CHURCH THAT CLAIM THE BIBLE IS FREE OF MORAL ERRORS AND NO CONTRADICTORY, AND IT IS...

MANY ATHEIST THINK THERE ARE MANY CONTRADICTIONS, BUT THEY ARE ALL WRONG, THERES NONE!! SCHOLARS AND PRIEST HAVE STUDIED IT FOR YRS (AS I HAVE AS WELL) IT IS ONLY CONTRADICTING TO YOU GUYS BCUZ YOUR BRAIN IS PUNY, NO WISDOM, NO INTELLECT, FOR KNOWLEDGE COMES FROM GOD...

I CHALLENGE ANYONE OF U TO QUOTE TO ME ANY SO-CALLED BIBLE CONTRADICTION IF IT EXIST..I AM A CATECHIST TEACHER, PERFECT TO DEBATE WITH...

I WILL WAIT FOR IT...

There's a few here for you:Bible Contradictions (http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1990/4/4contr90.html)

You are far from perfect to debate with. You insult and pointlessly use CAPSLOCK to cover flaws in your arguments. You explanation of why you dont believe in other Gods is not an explanation, just a re-iteration of what I already know. Of course you think the other God's are wrong, otherwise you'd believe in them. All of your 'reasons' apply to how other people see their particular God. So far, you've posted nothing that hints out what made you differentiate.

Checkmite

10th February 2003, 08:31 AM

Umm....

When did Carl Sagan ever declare that God didn't exist, or even attempt to argue the issue? I don't think he believed in God, but in Billions and Billions, his last book, he dedicated an entire chapter to explaining why religion isn't all bad.

pgwenthold

10th February 2003, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by muscleman

I ONLY BELIEVE IN THE CHRISTIAN GOD BECAUSE WE ARE THE ONLY CHURCH THAT CLAIM THE BIBLE IS FREE OF MORAL ERRORS AND NO CONTRADICTORY,

Oh really? And since when have the Muslims ever admitted that the Koran is free of moral errors and contradictions?

Fried again, Cletus.

(btw, you realize you have said that the bible is free of no contradictions...)

Franko

10th February 2003, 08:55 AM

When did Carl Sagan ever declare that God didn't exist, or even attempt to argue the issue? I don't think he believed in God, but in Billions and Billions, his last book, he dedicated an entire chapter to explaining why religion isn't all bad

read it again. Sagan was clearly anti-religious and deeply hypocritical on this subject.

He was another imbecile who believed that no evidence a thing was true made it False.

Logically identical to claiming that no evidence a thing is False makes it True.

... Or like claiming that coins always land TAILS up when tossed.

Pessimism <> Skepticism <> Science <> Logic

Flaherty

10th February 2003, 09:12 AM

and many others. Sagan's works were really my first steps on my 7-year road from devout Catholic to atheist.

At first, I was reading Sagan's Broca's Brain and Cosmos for the science. This took me to many other titles in the same genre, but it's most important effect was to introduce me to rigorous skeptical thinking, espeically in The Demon Haunted World.

The next step was merely the logical one: Apply to religious claims the same approach skeptics use to investigate a scientific or paranormal claim. It's quite easy to do this and the result is that all the special evidences a religion presents for the veracity of its dogma and sacred documents simply melt away. In the end, all religious dogma -- every bit of it -- is nothing but a set of claims for which there is little or no supporting evidence. In this respect, religious dogma and Nessie are bunkmates.

Some might argue that doing this is a misapplication of skepticism, but I see no reason to spare religion from such questioning. Why should it get a free pass?

Franko

10th February 2003, 09:15 AM

At first, I was reading Sagan's Broca's Brain and Cosmos for the science. This took me to many other titles in the same genre, but it's most important effect was to introduce me to rigorous skeptical thinking, espeically in The Demon Haunted World.

The next step was merely the logical one: Apply to religious claims the same approach skeptics use to investigate a scientific or paranormal claim. It's quite easy to do this and the result is that all the special evidences a religion presents for the veracity of its dogma and sacred documents simply melt away. In the end, all religious dogma -- every bit of it -- is nothing but a set of claims for which there is little or no supporting evidence. In this respect, religious dogma and Nessie are bunkmates.

Some might argue that doing this is a misapplication of skepticism, but I see no reason to spare religion from such questioning. Why should it get a free pass?

Yeah ... well explain why no A-Theists are EVER Skeptical of the Religion of Atheism?

Why is that?

I guess you are only allowed to be Skeptical of other "False" religions?

Just like when you were a devout Christian!

Flaherty

10th February 2003, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by Franko

read it again. Sagan was clearly anti-religious and deeply hypocritical on this subject.

He was another imbecile who believed that no evidence a thing was true made it False.

This is incorrect. Sagan often wrote that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

Flaherty

10th February 2003, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by Franko
Yeah ... well explain why no A-Theists are EVER Skeptical of the Religion of Atheism?

Another incorrect assertion. Many atheists, including this one, freely admit the possibilty they are wrong; that there is a god of some sort. The reason for my atheism is that there is no good reason to believe the claims for the existence of god. If such evidence appears I am perfectly willing to change my mind.

Some will say they believe in Spinoza's and Einstein's god, a god that is nothing more than the sum of the universe's physical laws. But conceding for this god is not saying anything of substance. Humans want to know a lot of things about a god before they worship him. Did he create the universe? Does he still exist? Does he know humans exist and if so, does he care? If he cares, does he interact in human affairs? Is there an afterlife? Is he in charge of it? If so, what is it like? What do human have to do to qualify for it, if anything?

Dogma answers those questions. Without dogma, the concept of god is worthless. In essence, dogma defines god. Without this definition, without the dogma, saying a god exists is a statement without substance. I reject the validity of all religious dogma, therefore I reject any substantive notion of god.

Franko

10th February 2003, 09:32 AM

This is incorrect. Sagan often wrote that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

In other words no evidence that god doesn’t exist is not evidence that God doesn’t exist.

(No evidence that a thing is False doesn’t make the thing False).

So if you or Sagan honestly believe this mantra, then why do you call yourself A-Theist? (God = False) Where is your evidence?

You are claiming that flipped coins always land TAILS up because there is no evidence that they land HEADS up.

Another incorrect assertion. Many atheists, including this one, freely admit the possibilty they are wrong; that there is a god of some sort

If you were honestly admitting it then you would call yourself Agnostic instead of A-THEIST!

1) God Exist = True (Theism/Deism) – God Exists
2) God Exist = False (A-Theism) – God does not Exist
3) God Exist = Unknown (Agnosticism) – Not enough information

Like I said, the religious fanatics of A-Theism are never skeptical of their A-theism, as soon as they become Skeptical they cease being A-Theists.

muscleman

10th February 2003, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by pgwenthold

Isn't it considered a sin to add things to the bible that are not there?

No it is very clear in the passage I quoted that the reason God ordered the massacre of the ox, sheep, cows, and asses is because the Amelakites opposed the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt 400 years earlier. Any other claims are unsupported by the bible.[/B]

Of course it is wrong to add or TAKE AWAY anything written in the sacred scrolls which was placed all together in one book called the bible...

But I am not adding anything into it. IM CLARIFYING IT THROUGH HISTORICAL FACTS.. If Napoleon were walking and that was written in the book, if I described the pants Napoleon were wearing through historical document BUT NOT ADDING THAT TO THE BOOK, that is not "adding" and defiling the truth, THATS CLARIFYING THE TRUTH....

Originally posted by pgwenthold

[/b]

And God fails the logic test.

1) God is a jealous god.
2) God is love
3) Love is not jealous

All three of these are in the bible. They cannot all be true. [/B]

Let me clarify that for u...

1.) God is Hate= To the disobedient...
2.) God is Love= To the obedient..
3.) God is Jealous= To the disobedient.
4.) God is trust= To the obedient..
5.) God is justice= TO THE HUMAN RACE......YOU SOW WHAT YOU REAP...

GOT IT?

Originally posted by pgwenthold

Why would they starve to death? Why can't God just rain down manna from heaven? Instead of letting self-serving adults to go hungry, Jesus performed a miracle to feed them, and they weren't even in danger of starving!

And you know, if old God hadn't ordered them to kill all their food animals, they wouldn't have been in danger of starving to death in the first place.

Cruel, cruel bastard... [/B]

LOL, if you talk about God, you should know that in God, life in the world is short, and the afterlife is our destiny, we prepare ourself for that day, where do you belong?

I already explained to u why the ox, goats, etc. were killed bcuz they take away the glory that is due to God. Heck, if my gurlfriend got a sex doll and it takes away the love that belongs to me that it made her break up w/me and the doll did the same for all the gurls, not wanting me, I would destroy that doll myself...

Franko... Right on, Now I know why they are mad at you, because this guys are brainwashed and your revealing to themthe truth, the truth that atheism is a joke and such belief have no evidence God dont exist (as it claimed) but they will twist, and turn trying to avoid answering the question, as u can see that now......

Agammamon

10th February 2003, 10:13 AM

Franko

10th February 2003, 10:23 AM

Uhm, If God does not need to be created, then why do we? God is an infinately complex being , infinite in extent and power, if such a being can arise spontaneaously then why can we, who arem uch less complex, not do the same.

Who's saying that it happens any different?

God is no different then you are ... She's just a lot more evolved.

Flaherty

10th February 2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by Franko
If you were honestly admitting it then you would call yourself Agnostic instead of A-THEIST!

Yes, if one were to be abnormally slavish to words and definitions, then I could be called an agnostic. However, I would also have to take a position of agnosticism with respect to Santa Claus. Since I am not willing to make the absurd statement, "I don't know whether Santa exists," I am not willing to make the equally absurd statement "I don't know whether god X exists."

Likewise, no theist can argue that he knows with certainty that god X exists. Therefore, all humans are agnostics. Since many theists are convinced beyond reasonable doubt that he does exist, they are not willing to call themselves agnostics but theists.

Dub

10th February 2003, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by muscleman

atheism is a joke and such belief have no evidence God dont exist (as it claimed) but they will twist, and turn trying to avoid answering the question, as u can see that now......

The burden of proof is on you to first prove God exists. By your reasoning, everything that hasnt or cant be proved not to exist, therefore must exist. Im sure you can see this is ridiculous.

What people can prove is that most of the suggestions that have been put forward to describe God have many, simpler, less fantastic explanations. Thing such as creationism, the age of the Earth, that the Sun orbits the Earth, that the atmosphere is made of crystal spheres etc, havebeen proved incorrect. No objective evidence has ever been produced to prove the existence of God that hasnt been dis-proved.

There is of course this mystery evidence which you claim to have. Although many people have been looking for this evidence for over 1500 years, you seem to really think you have it. Which would make you the first. Now, if, hypothetically, this extrordinary evidence you claim to have, is just that, definitive proof of God's existence, I would have no problem in believing in God. I cant speak for every atheist, but personally I have no reason to not want there to be a God. Infact, I think it would be fantastic if there actually was a God. Someone watching over you, keepin you safe and then, when you die, external paradise. Sadly, despite being brought up a christian, and thus having stduied the bible, I have yet to find one single piece of evidence to suggest that God exists. I think many theists want for God to exist so badly that they overlook the overwhelming lack of evidence and believe because it makes them feel better.

Also, you asked for someone to find a contradiction in the bible and I posted a link with several; however, you havent commented on this.

Checkmite

10th February 2003, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Franko

He was another imbecile who believed that no evidence a thing was true made it False.

Logically identical to claiming that no evidence a thing is False makes it True.

Originally posted by Franko in another thread

My evidence for the Progenitor Solipsist is that the person reading this isn't certain that Solipsism is necessarily False. You can't prove that it's False.

:D

pgwenthold

10th February 2003, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by muscleman

Of course it is wrong to add or TAKE AWAY anything written in the sacred scrolls which was placed all together in one book called the bible...

But I am not adding anything into it. IM CLARIFYING IT THROUGH HISTORICAL FACTS..

The facts are laid out very clearly in the bible. God ordered the Israelites to kill all of the Amelakites because they interfered with the exodus, 400 years before. That is what the bible says, and it is unmistakable. Anything else you add you do so without any biblical support. Shame on you.

Let me clarify that for u...

1.) God is Hate= To the disobedient...

Chapter and verse? Where does the bible say God = hate?

2.) God is Love= To the obedient..
3.) God is Jealous= To the disobedient.

These are added to the bible. Shame on you again.

BTW, you forgot one:

4) Love is not jealous.

I already explained to u why the ox, goats, etc. were killed bcuz they take away the glory that is due to God.

You've just turned yourself into Colonel Jessup from A Few Good Men.

Tell me Cletus, if they killed all the Amalekites, how could the livestock take the glory away from god? If the Amalekites are dead, they won't be worshipping the cattle, will they?

Bzzzz. Fried yourself again, moron.

Heck, if my gurlfriend got a sex doll and it takes away the love that belongs to me that it made her break up w/me and the doll did the same for all the gurls, not wanting me, I would destroy that doll myself...

To be an appropriate analogy, you would have to destroy the sex doll _and_ kill her and all women.

Instead of killing and destroying everything in your way, wouldn't it be more civilized to earn her love? Provide her with something the sex doll can't?

The more you keep talking, the more you demonstrate how god's acts were far from a "civilized manner."

Franko

10th February 2003, 11:31 AM

Dub: (backwards thinker)
The burden of proof is on you to first prove God exists. By your reasoning, everything that hasnt or cant be proved not to exist, therefore must exist. Im sure you can see this is ridiculous.

Actually what you are claiming is just as ridiculous.

Just because you haven’t proven that Elves don’t exist doesn’t mean that they do.

By the same token just because you haven’t proved that Elves do exist, doesn’t mean that they don’t.

The question of Elves in this case (ambiguously defined) is an UNKNOWN – it is neither TRUE or FALSE.

Not having any evidence doesn’t make something FALSE! That is utterly absurd! You might as well be claiming that no evidence makes something TRUE.

1) God Exist = True (Theism/Deism) GOD EXISTS
2) God Exist = False (A-Theism) GOD DOES NOT EXIST
3) God Exist = Unknown (Agnosticism) NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION

If you are claiming Agnosticism on the God-Question, then you would call yourself an Agnostic, but instead you look like another A-Theist hypocrite.

Dub

10th February 2003, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by Franko

Actually what you are claiming is just as ridiculous.

Just because you haven’t proven that Elves don’t exist doesn’t mean that they do.

By the same token just because you haven’t proved that Elves do exist, doesn’t mean that they don’t.

The question of Elves in this case (ambiguously defined) is an UNKNOWN – it is neither TRUE or FALSE.

Not having any evidence doesn’t make something FALSE! That is utterly absurd! You might as well be claiming that no evidence makes something TRUE.

1) God Exist = True (Theism/Deism) GOD EXISTS
2) God Exist = False (A-Theism) GOD DOES NOT EXIST
3) God Exist = Unknown (Agnosticism) NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION

If you are claiming Agnosticism on the God-Question, then you would call yourself an Agnostic, but instead you look like another A-Theist hypocrite.

Obviously you need to add insults in an attempt to strengthen your weak postion, which is only natural for people with weak arguments. Muscelman claimed that atheism hasnt proved God not to exist. I never said that Not having any evidence doesn’t make something false. I stated that it is ridiculous for muscleman to claim God exists by default because atheists havent dis-proved it. My postion is that, while I know it can never be deinfinitively proved that God does not exist, there is no evidence to suggest that God does exist.

For example, if someone told me that they can read my mind and know exactly what I'm thinking but gives no evidence that they can, I would assume they cant do what they claim. While, I may never know for definite that they cannot, if they can't produce any evidence to back up their claim I would believe that their claim is false. Now, using muscleman's logic, my position of disbelief would be wrong as I cannot prove that they cannot read my mind.

As there is no evidence to prove Gods' existence atheists cannot disprove it. Therefore the burden of proof is on the theists to first prove God exists.

Yahzi

10th February 2003, 12:23 PM

OccasionalChemist
I find it fascinating that there are so many hoops that people who want to believe in a loving god have to jump through.
Something I have always wondered: are they really that desparate to believe in loving god that they ignore the facts, or, are they not so concerned with a loving god as they are with a powerful one?

I suspect that the people who accept god-driven genocide as consistent with a loving god don't actually worship a loving god, but rather a powerful one. The whole loving label is just something they thought you'd be more likely to buy into, but actually, the god they worship is about power. And loving them. God has power and loves them, no matter how much he beats the other kids.

Amazing to me how some people's God sounds just like an abusive, alcoholic step-father. Makes you wonder where they got their imagery from...

bangdazap

10th February 2003, 12:38 PM

"He's GOD. If he wanted you to follow a set of rules he'd have carved them on the moon in GIANT F*CKING LETTERS." - Ender (Anonymous)

:D

Dub

10th February 2003, 03:52 PM

All he left was that giant message on the hillside "We apologise for the inconvenience" :D

Tricky

10th February 2003, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by bangdazap
"He's GOD. If he wanted you to follow a set of rules he'd have carved them on the moon in GIANT F*CKING LETTERS." - Ender (Anonymous)
:D
Well what about the Face on Mars? Oh, wait a minute. That was aliens. Never mind.

bangdazap

10th February 2003, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by Tricky

Well what about the Face on Mars? Oh, wait a minute. That was aliens. Never mind.
Yeah a giant rock face would have told us a lot about what rules god wants us to follow. To bad it was just aliens :(

Renfield

11th February 2003, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by muscleman
I made this post, because I realized alot of the atheists are brainwashed by the 2 above. I say "brainwashed" because they dont have the intellect to see their flawed arguments, because of that, they become an atheist...

I post this to type what is the best argument you got from this guys to discredit the existence of God.. Post them whatever it is..So I can point to you the problem with it which you guys FAILED to see......

I think Creationists must have been hit very hard on the head in childhood to have completely lost all their reasoning abilities.

(this is about as convincing as your arguement tha evolutionists have been brainwashed)

Bozotheda

12th February 2003, 12:16 AM

Originally posted by muscleman

IF GOD CREATED THE UNIVERSE,
THEN WHO CREATED GOD?
The Big Bang, atom transformed into a cell, etc. whatever the theory is, that’s our understanding, God is beyond human understanding.

This argument is worthless because it appeals to ignorance. I may as well say that god's non-existence is beyond human understanding, which is why you are unable to conceive of it. Your assertion just translates as "god exists, period!".

Obviously, you don't really believe god's existence is beyond human understanding, since you do believe.

Ask yourself this: why would god endow some people (atheists) with such inferior intellects that it would compel them to reject the very thing that could give them eternal bliss?

DialecticMaterialist

12th February 2003, 04:19 AM

If someone died for God thats because he loves God and he exist.

A good quote summarizes my response:

A thing isn't necessarily true just because someone dies for it

- Oscar Wilde

Millions died for the nazi,marxist and islamic fundamentalist cause too....doesn't make their beliefs true.

What about the suicide bombers, are they martyrs? No, bcuz their family were offered money, promised that they will b given money if he blew himself off, WAS UNEDUCATED, and was brainwashed thinking that if he blew himself off, he will go to heaven..

And aren't Christian promised "heaven" as well? Why is this not "brainwashing" when a xian does terrorist actions as well (bombing abortion clinics)?

Thats the difference between the brainwashed and the non-brainwashed. They were not given options, never given the chance to learn science/philosophy, etc.

Irrelevant. You are arguing that dying for a belief makes it true, coercion does not change this fact. What about people who do grow up freely but die for a certain cause anyways(branch davidians, jonestown)?

Did they go to hell? No, they are not accountable for the act if they didnt know its a sin to begin with. Unless of course they know its a sin but still did it, but they were brainwashed and didnt know...

So is it works and not faith then?

What about the heavens gate suicide cult who drink Cyanide? It doesnt count, they were at gunpoint, the leader at the end killed him self.

Heaven's gate were not at gun point, please try to get the basic facts straight.....

Being forced to die at gun point isnt martyrdom, no conviction there..

Again that was not Heaven's Gate. I imagine you are thinking Jonestown and they were ah, holding the guns.....

Money and influence?

Or, maybe they weren't lieing, but they were just mistaken.

Why do people who adhere to scientology lie? Perhaps simply because they are deluded or trick themselves.

Aposltes have the vow of poverty, TILL THIS DAY THE FRIARS FOLLOW THAT TRADITION, SO YUR WRONG, THAT OR JUST A FAT LIAR.......

*eeerrrr* Wrong answer muscles.

The Catholic Church is among the richest organizations in the world. In Middle Ages priests were the best fed of all groups.

Also what's to make you think money was the only motivation? Ever hear of Hare Krishnas? They don't earn much, don't influence much, but would you then say they are adhering to "the Truth"?