The "Jesus Freak Challenge"

[jesus_freak]

He is my "challenge" to all non-believers...
I will send $50 to the first person to call way of the master radio (1-877-law-grace I believe is the number) and talk to Todd, Ray, or Kirk and have a logical conversation about atheism. I don't care if you convince anyone one way or another, but just go on and give your arguments for atheism, and listen to what they have to say. I look forward to a participant!
It would be easier for it to be on air also.

[Zep]

That's an evangelical christian radio station in the USA, yes?

[Beleth]

Since there's no guarantee that Todd, Ray, or Kirk will stay logical, your money is unwinnable.

[Zep]

Answer my previous question, please, JF.

[Shevek-72]

Since there's no guarantee that Todd, Ray, or Kirk will stay logical, your money is unwinnable.

Not only is there no guarantee, a look at the writings of Ray (http://www.livingwaters.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=104&Category_Code=wotmr-book) reveals that his idea of a logic argument against atheism seems to be: "We can't know, therefore god exists".
But I do like the picture of the ape holding the book.

[Shevek-72]

Answer my previous question, please, JF.

I'm not JF, but Google is my friend :D . It seems to be. (http://www.wayofthemasterradio.com/)

[a_unique_person]

Not only is there no guarantee, a look at the writings of Ray (http://www.livingwaters.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=104&Category_Code=wotmr-book) reveals that his idea of a logic argument against atheism seems to be: "We can't know, therefore god exists".
But I do like the picture of the ape holding the book.

Goddam, I'm ordering ten books and getting the 40% discount. What a bargain.

[Zep]

I'm not JF, but Google is my friend :D . It seems to be. (http://www.wayofthemasterradio.com/)(Yep - checked it myself too!)

OK, since JF isn't going to deign to respond, and you did, Shevek, I thank you.

So I, for one, won't be calling them from here, because it would cost more that $50 in phone charges. So why would I even bother, purely on a financial basis?

[McCragge]

Wait a minute, are these the same guys who assure us that a banana is proof that God exists because it has an easy open tab, fits the hand perfectly, and seems to be made to fit into our mouths. (Of course it makes one wonder what god was thinking when he created the coconut)

And here I thought Kirk Camerons 80's sitcom was bad.

McCragge

[latent aaaack]

Wait a minute, are these the same guys who assure us that a banana is proof that God exists because it has an easy open tab, fits the hand perfectly, and seems to be made to fit into our mouths. (Of course it makes one wonder what god was thinking when he created the coconut)

And here I thought Kirk Camerons 80's sitcom was bad.

McCragge

They owe Ted Haggard an apology. How are they so good at digging themselves into these holes? I couldn't think of a more hilarious way of saying "i'm a a gay hypocrit who's bad at seeing where my arguements logically go" if I tried.

[Blutarsky]

Dear Jesus Freak,


Go away.
You make us all look bad.
Kirk Cameron sucks.












That is all,

Blutarsky

[Blutarsky]

http://d.im.craigslist.org/pB/Mt/k3zIBWv7Kl810Wm7Y12t5mmczvj1.jpg

[jesus_freak]

(Yep - checked it myself too!)

OK, since JF isn't going to deign to respond, and you did, Shevek, I thank you.

So I, for one, won't be calling them from here, because it would cost more that $50 in phone charges. So why would I even bother, purely on a financial basis?
I can only answer when I am in here...sorry if you don't get an imediate answer to your questions...but they answer is yes...and if that is true that it would cost you $50 in charges then I will give you $75.
The challenge is not if they(Todd,kirk,or Ray) are logical in your mind but if you just listen to what they say and YOU have logical or rational questions about what they say.

[sackett]

Sell all that thou hast and give to sackett the poor, and come and follow me.

[Freethinker]

I can only answer when I am in here...sorry if you don't get an imediate answer to your questions...but they answer is yes...and if that is true that it would cost you $50 in charges then I will give you $75.
The challenge is not if they(Todd,kirk,or Ray) are logical in your mind but if you just listen to what they say and YOU have logical or rational questions about what they say.

Those guys are so far over the deep end that the word rational should never enter the converstation when discussing them other than as part of the words rationalization and irrational. People who can look at irrefutable evidence and ignore it have serious mental issues.

[jesus_freak]

Those guys are so far over the deep end that the word rational should never enter the converstation when discussing them other than as part of the words rationalization and irrational. People who can look at irrefutable evidence and ignore it have serious mental issues.
So do you accept my challenge?

[cyborg]

Your challenge is rigged if you are the judge and the prize giver.

[Freethinker]

So do you accept my challenge?

I wouldn't waste my time talking to nuts.

[Foster Zygote]

Mr. Randi's $1,000,000 challenge has a clear goal: To demonstrate the lack of evidence for paranormal, supernatural claims.

What is the goal of Mr. Freak's $50 challenge?

[hgc]

Wait a minute, are these the same guys who assure us that a banana is proof that God exists because it has an easy open tab, fits the hand perfectly, and seems to be made to fit into our mouths. (Of course it makes one wonder what god was thinking when he created the coconut)
Unless the banana is overripe, it's easier to open from the other end anyway.

[ChristineR]

What makes you think that these guys want to have an intelligent, logical conversation with me? I'm sure they screen their calls. I have had many intelligent logical conversations about atheism with Christians, but I've never seen one on a Christian radio show.

infidelguy might be willing...if they'd ask him. I doubt that a random call to the 800 number would do a bit of good.

[jesus_freak]

What makes you think that these guys want to have an intelligent, logical conversation with me? I'm sure they screen their calls. I have had many intelligent logical conversations about atheism with Christians, but I've never seen one on a Christian radio show.

infidelguy might be willing...if they'd ask him. I doubt that a random call to the 800 number would do a bit of good.

It happens all the time on that show...they actuall go out and do what they call street fishing.Infidelguy has been on a few times that I have heard but after the time he was on after wife swap he threw a fit and said never again.
As far as the purpose I think people are missing it. Call in... go on air...act like a civilized being and get free money. I am not the judge just go on say your name and I will send you fifty bucks...Its pretty simple.

[jesus_freak]

I wouldn't waste my time talking to nuts.
Come on not even for 5 minutes for $50?

[ChristineR]

I've seen their street fishing. They go out and catch random people unprepared and throw their (prepared) technical questions at them. If the person looks dumb, then they put it on their show. If they actually catch a scientist who knows their question of the week, they just don't put it on the show.

[jesus_freak]

have you ever listened to the radio show? Call in say you are not saved and they will talk to you...live and uncut as long as you don't swear

[Foster Zygote]

Not only is there no guarantee, a look at the writings of Ray (http://www.livingwaters.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=104&Category_Code=wotmr-book) reveals that his idea of a logic argument against atheism seems to be: "We can't know, therefore god exists".
But I do like the picture of the ape holding the book.

Like gazing at the sun can make you temporarily blind, reading that kind of weapons-grade stupidity can actually make you temporarily dumber.

Foster Zygote SMASH!!!

[jesus_freak]

Like gazing at the sun can make you temporarily blind, reading that kind of weapons-grade stupidity can actually make you temporarily dumber.
Funny that is exactly why I don't come to this forum daily.

[jesus_freak]

For the challenge you can talk about evolution, what you think are contradictions in the Bible, Religion or Christ...come on guys its easy money. And to be fait I will do the same if anyone wants me to say call the Infidel guy.

[latent aaaack]

Jesus-freak do you really not believe in evolution like your sig implies? Do you have this bumper sticker? http://www.stickergiant.com/Merchant2/imgs/250/t30513.gif

[jesus_freak]

Jesus-freak do you really not believe in evolution like your sig implies? Do you have this bumper sticker?
Yes I do....no I do not...are you up to the challenge or not?

[jesus_freak]

Wow who knew it would be so hard to give away $50...no wonder the $1 million hasn't been given away by mr. randi

[ChristineR]

$50 is not a lot of money to be subjected to public humiliation, JF. I would do it for a million.

[jesus_freak]

$50 is not a lot of money to be subjected to public humiliation, JF. I would do it for a million.

Well unfourtunatly I do not have a million dollars to give away...why do you think you would be humiliated...because you are wrong...I really dont think it is that big of a deal. Non Christian callers call in for free all of the time.

[latent aaaack]

Well unfourtunatly I do not have a million dollars to give away...why do you think you would be humiliated...because you are wrong...I really dont think it is that big of a deal. Non Christian callers call in for free all of the time.

It sounds like by doing this you are trying to foster the image of atheists as intrusive, unethical, and merely oppositional by getting someone to call their show just to say basically "I'm an atheist and I'm barging into your religious show to try to convert you to my atheism." That's more like something a religious person would do.

[cyborg]

JF - I see you have not responded to the acusations of a rigged challenge.

Your challenge is poorly frames. The JREF challenge is well framed.

Comparing them is laughable.

[ChristineR]

These guys are in the business of humiliating non-Christians. We've all seen their Internet videos. Some non-Christians like to confront people like that and get into arguments. Some don't. You can win an argument and still be wrong.

But keep trying, some other poster who is willing to do it may come along later.

[jesus_freak]

It sounds like by doing this you are trying to foster the image of atheists as intrusive, unethical, and merely oppositional by getting someone to call their show just to say basically "I'm an atheist and I'm barging into your religious show to try to convert you to my atheism." That's more like something a religious person would do.
OK lets try this again...No conversion or attempted conversion is needed...you don't even have to say if you are an atheist or not...you can just bring up points for evolution....or you can bring up what you think are contradictions in the Bible....I will even give you one if you want...2 Kings 8:26 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/2kg/8.html#26) Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. 2 Chronicles 22:2 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/2chr/22.html#2) Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign....I got that one from the litteral Bible topic.

[jesus_freak]

JF - I see you have not responded to the acusations of a rigged challenge.

Please explain how this is rigged...Call in and I will give you $50...seems pretty simple to me.

[jesus_freak]

These guys are in the business of humiliating non-Christians.
If you act like an adult and bring up valid points and ask valid questions they will not humiliate you...It happens all of the time on that show!

[aggle-rithm]

OK lets try this again...No conversion or attempted conversion is needed...you don't even have to say if you are an atheist or not...you can just bring up points for evolution....or you can bring up what you think are contradictions in the Bible....I will even give you one if you want...2 Kings 8:26 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/2kg/8.html#26) Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. 2 Chronicles 22:2 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/2chr/22.html#2) Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign....I got that one from the litteral Bible topic.

So how do YOU reconcile this discrepency?

[jesus_freak]

I am not really sure...That is why I would love to hear you ask it and see what Todd has to say about it.

[aggle-rithm]

If you act like an adult and bring up valid points and ask valid questions they will not humiliate you...It happens all of the time on that show!

So, frequently, people who call and ask valid questions are not humiliated.

Wow! They sound like grand fellas!

[jesus_freak]

So, frequently, people who call and ask valid questions are not humiliated.
Yep...give it a shot and I will give you $50

[latent aaaack]

OK lets try this again...No conversion or attempted conversion is needed...you don't even have to say if you are an atheist or not...you can just bring up points for evolution....or you can bring up what you think are contradictions in the Bible....I will even give you one if you want...2 Kings 8:26 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/2kg/8.html#26) Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. 2 Chronicles 22:2 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/2chr/22.html#2) Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign....I got that one from the litteral Bible topic.

They don't believe in evolution? Will you pay me to call a psychiatric hospital with a tape recorder to talk to one of the inmates about my points on why the CIA isn't stealing their thoughts instead?

[jesus_freak]

OK if you call in and feel like they humiliated you I will give you $75

[aggle-rithm]

I am not really sure...That is why I would love to hear you ask it and see what Todd has to say about it.

I already have an explanation. One or both of the sources are wrong.

I'll be YOU're more curious about it than I am, so why don't YOU call in and ask?

[jesus_freak]

They don't believe in evolution? Will you pay me to call a psychiatric hospital with a tape recorder to talk to one of the inmates about my points on why the CIA isn't stealing their thoughts instead?
no

[ChristineR]

If you act like an adult and bring up valid points and ask valid questions they will not humiliate you...It happens all of the time on that show!

What are you hoping to accomplish JF? They screen their calls and they can hang up at anytime, so you can't assume that these guys would be willing to give five minutes of their time to an atheist they can't outmaneuver. And they're pros, they maneuver better than most of us. And they have pretty low ethical standards--they have a record of distorting the truth to make their point. They probably feel the end justifies the means, but I'm not volunteering to be the means.

[jesus_freak]

I'll be YOU're more curious about it than I am, so why don't YOU call in and ask?
I work during the show so I have to listen to the pod cast...If you call in and ask that question for me I will give you $100

[jesus_freak]

but I'm not volunteering to be the means
OK then don't do it I really don't care who I give the money to.

[latent aaaack]

no

Would you call the facility then if I paid you $75? If not, why, afraid they may be right?

[ChristineR]

He'd say it was a typo (scribo?) and that typos don't count against the inerrancy of the Bible. He'd refuse to give way on other passages that appear to be corrupted by scribal errors, because they don't present any problem for his theology. On the other hand, he would give way on certain passages that do present a problem for his theology.

[cyborg]

Please explain how this is rigged...Call in and I will give you $50...seems pretty simple to me.

That is not your challenge.

Liar.

[aggle-rithm]

I work during the show so I have to listen to the pod cast...If you call in and ask that question for me I will give you $100

How about 20 bucks if I tell you what their answer will PROBABLY be?

1. There were two Ahaziahs.
2. There was one Ahaziah who served two non-consecutive terms as king.
3. God magically made years shorter just so one of the versions could be correct.
4. The caller must be a godless athiest to ask such a question.

I also predict they will use the phrase "historical research shows" without saying who did the research or what it consisted of.

[aggle-rithm]

A few more I thought of:

5. "Twenty-two years" was supposed to be metaphorical.
6. The Lord's ways are not our ways.
7. I'll have to ask my pastor and get back with you.

[canadarocks]

Maybe I missed it, but how is JF going to confirm it was one of us (a JREF person) that made the call. I could just listen to the program, hear a person bring up Bible not being literally true (and get abused), and then claim that it was me? I think I may have already called and should be eligible for the $. (I'm Brian and so is my wife!)

[Tony]

(Of course it makes one wonder what god was thinking when he created the coconut)


Isn't it obvious? God didn't intend for humans to eat coconuts. Anyone who has eaten a coconut is going to hell for breaking one of god's natural laws.

[Zep]

I can only answer when I am in here...sorry if you don't get an imediate answer to your questions...but they answer is yes...and if that is true that it would cost you $50 in charges then I will give you $75.
The challenge is not if they(Todd,kirk,or Ray) are logical in your mind but if you just listen to what they say and YOU have logical or rational questions about what they say.Here's the point: We will have logical questions, but will they have logical answers? I very much doubt it.

And my time is worth a lot more than $75/hr, especially if I have to lower my standards of conversation to their level. So the price has gone up. JF. Let's make it the cost of an airfare to their radio station, and I'll talk with them all day. Wadda ya say?

[Beleth]

Please explain how this is rigged...
I already did, in post #3.

[Zep]

Btw, JF, this is not a challenge at all. It's exactly the same as being on one of those TV shows where they humiliate the contestants and cover them in green goo so that the audience can laugh at them, and they win some dinky kitchen appliance or other. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with real life.

Think about it: One (or, indeed, all) of us could go on the radio show with these goons, and prove them utterly wrong on everything they trot out. Given a fair go, it would be easy. But will we get a fair go? No. And will that stop them trotting the same rubbish out tomorrow? No. Will it alter the truth of history? No. Will it convince you and change your mind? No.

They are simply publicity-hungry radio jocks with nice shirts and loafers, trying to drop green goo. As I said above, the price for my appearances is listed. Pay or I won't bother.

[Starrman]

For the challenge you can talk about evolution, what you think are contradictions in the Bible, Religion or Christ...come on guys its easy money. And to be fait I will do the same if anyone wants me to say call the Infidel guy.

What does evolution have to do with being an Atheist? I am an atheist because of a lack of evidence for god, not because of the overwhelming evidence for evolution.

What if I call in and ask them what their positive evidence is for beleiving in god - what is a logical response to that?

[fishbait]

..If you call in and ask that question for me I will give you $100Anyone willing to pay $100 for a phone call must be willing to pay $200? $250? Give me your absolute best offer and I'll consider it.:cool:

[saizai]

JF - I'd take the challenge on four conditions:

1. there's an internet-based way to listen to the show
2. I can make it a very narrow logical question (rather than some sort of huge sprawling thing)
3. you can show that you're capable of paying via PayPal
4. you explain your conditions / intent more exactly; specifically what do you mean by "logical conversation" and "atheism", how long does it need to be (eg if they hang up on me?), what conditions for $75 vs $50.

FWIW I am a weak agnostic rather than a strong atheist, so I would not be able to give an argument that no god exists. But I could give ones that have a problem with most forms of Christianity.

[Admiral]

Maybe I missed it, but how is JF going to confirm it was one of us (a JREF person) that made the call. I could just listen to the program, hear a person bring up Bible not being literally true (and get abused), and then claim that it was me? I think I may have already called and should be eligible for the $. (I'm Brian and so is my wife!)

To be fair, the person could message JF with his name BEFORE he called in. (And if he's uncomfortable giving his name, he could use a fake one when calling in).

[saizai]

To be fair, the person could message JF with his name BEFORE he called in. (And if he's uncomfortable giving his name, he could use a fake one when calling in).

Or just identify themselves as "x from JREF calling in at jesus_freak's request" on air.

[FaisonMars]

$50? Sure, I'll call in. What time is the show on? How do I know I'll get through?

Edit: Oops, I see Sai beat me to it. I'll call, too, for what it's worth.

I'm also am technically a weak agnostic, although I call myself an atheist because I live my life as if there is no god. (Actually, I call myself a humanist since I prefer to emphasize a positive belief rather than a non-belief, but I'm also comfortable with atheist.)

[saizai]

mfaison - How 'bout dibs in order of posting? In case I pass it up or don't get through, you get next shot, etc.

[FaisonMars]

Go for it, Sai-- give 'em hell.

[saizai]

But brotherman, I don't believe in hell. ;)

First though, I want JF's response to my questions about conditions #2-4; I already found their website/podcast, so #1 is aok.

Any suggestions from the audience for a narrow subject (i.e. one minimally prone to getting spun out into a huge logic-free debate) that does not require reference to a lot of evidence (e.g. evolution; I don't want to be involved in a "who can cite more things in a more authoritative voice" pissing contest) that would be fun to call in on?

[jesus_freak]

1. there's an internet-based way to listen to the show
2. I can make it a very narrow logical question (rather than some sort of huge sprawling thing)
3. you can show that you're capable of paying via PayPal
4. you explain your conditions / intent more exactly; specifically what do you mean by "logical conversation" and "atheism", how long does it need to be (eg if they hang up on me?), what conditions for $75 vs $50.

1)Way of the master radio.com
2)Sure
3)Im not sure how to show that but let me know and I will. I will make sure that you get your money.
4)I will give you $50 if you call in and basically don't hang up on them. If they hang up on you then that is obviously not your fault. I will give you $25 more if YOU feel you were wronged in any way...I will let you be the judge of that. If when it is all said and done you say I want $75 because of....Then it is yours.

[jesus_freak]

What does evolution have to do with being an Atheist? I am an atheist because of a lack of evidence for god, not because of the overwhelming evidence for evolution.
I never said you had to be an atheist.

[jesus_freak]

Btw, JF, this is not a challenge at all
I challenge you to call in and have a conversation with them. I think that is a challenge.

[jesus_freak]

That is not your challenge.

Liar.

I'm pretty sure I know my own challenge thank you very much...and I see you once again stoop to the name calling level...You sir are a class act!

[Foster Zygote]

I challenge you to call in and have a conversation with them. I think that is a challenge.

I'm not sure why this idea excites you so much.

Do you expect the JREF member to be converted to their brand of Christianity by their bullet proof logic?

Do you expect them to make a fool of the caller, again, with their impenetrable logic?

Do you expect the JREF member to resort to ad hominem attacks and immature insults, allowing you to gloat?

I have an idea of what will happen based on my observations of dozens of encounters like the one you propose. The caller will point out some contradiction within the Bible/misrepresentation of facts by the hosts/completely wrong assumption about science by the hosts etc. The hosts will spout some half-baked drivel that only raises more questions/is logically infantile/ignores reality/that they pulled out of their asses. The caller will point out problems with these arguments if he/she is able to get a word in edgewise. The hosts will start quoting the Bible/pseudo-science/their own books/crackpot and or fringe scientists or "scienticians"/mainstream scientists out of context. At the end, any listeners with an education will think the caller brought up some interesting points, but the hosts will be certain that they've won the argument as will all of their listeners who are sure that Thomas Jefferson was a born again Christian, have little to no idea that Matthew and Luke give completely different lineages for Jesus' ancestry and that an old man put two of every species of land animal into a big box for over a year.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Will anyone call in and ask them why all of the evidences they cite for the banana being perfectly designed for humans to put in their mouths applies to the penis as well?

[Apathia]

Were I a Christian Theist and I was offered a bribe to ask a question on a Christain radio program of a sect or movement whose intent was the conversion of people to its ideology and doctrine, I'd refuse to be so used.

It's not an occasion of education or even inspiration, it's a propaganda piece.

[jesus_freak]

Would you call the facility then if I paid you $75? If not, why, afraid they may be right?
Yes I will...give me the number and when we should get it done.

[saizai]

3)Im not sure how to show that but let me know and I will. I will make sure that you get your money.

How about this:
1. Confirm that you have a PayPal account.
2. If you don't go through with your end, you get temporarily banned, and permanently have your tagline changed to "Liar" (or some equivalent Tag O' Shame at the moderators' discretion) on this account as well as all other and future accounts of yours.

If you just say something on this thread to the effect of agreeing to #2 above, and officially asking any forum moderator to enforce that, then I think that is sufficient.

4)I will give you $50 if you call in and basically don't hang up on them. If they hang up on you then that is obviously not your fault. I will give you $25 more if YOU feel you were wronged in any way...I will let you be the judge of that. If when it is all said and done you say I want $75 because of....Then it is yours.

Sounds fair by me. Should be fun.

How hard is it to actually get on the line? Perhaps I should try scheduling it by email....

The Moderating Team will not be involved in any such bet/challenge etc. Suspensions, bannings etc. are not "stakes" that can be offered by any Memeber.

[saizai]

Will anyone call in and ask them why all of the evidences they cite for the banana being perfectly designed for humans to put in their mouths applies to the penis as well?

Enh, that's just crude.

I think I'd rather go with the coconut/pineapple argument.

Actually that's a pretty solid one to take as a small thing to talk about. I'll figure out what I might say and probably take that one. :)

[Dustin Kesselberg]

I've seen their street fishing. They go out and catch random people unprepared and throw their (prepared) technical questions at them. If the person looks dumb, then they put it on their show. If they actually catch a scientist who knows their question of the week, they just don't put it on the show.

That's a funny part about these Christian shows where they go out and talk to people about "Being saved". They try to make non-Christians look stupid by selecting only those uneducated non-believers who can't defend what they believe in. However when they confront someone who really puts them in their place and refutes their reasoning, they don't air it on their shows.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Enh, that's just crude.

I think I'd rather go with the coconut/pineapple argument.

Actually that's a pretty solid one to take as a small thing to talk about. I'll figure out what I might say and probably take that one. :)

One I like that I often bring up in the C&E debate is Aphids. Humans are supposed to be masters of the animal kingdom right? Why is it that aphids are pests to us, but to ants they're livestock?

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Wow who knew it would be so hard to give away $50...no wonder the $1 million hasn't been given away by mr. randi

No one will accept your "challenge" for one reason and one reason only. You say that you will only pay the $50 if the person who calls in has a quote unquote "logical" discussion with the shows hosts. Who decides if the discussion is logical or not? If I call in and put them in their place and waste money on the fee to call, who decides if I stayed logical? A neutral 3rd party? No..YOU decide!

[saizai]

No one will accept your "challenge" for one reason and one reason only. You say that you will only pay the $50 if the person who calls in has a quote unquote "logical" discussion with the shows hosts. Who decides if the discussion is logical or not? If I call in and put them in their place and waste money on the fee to call, who decides if I stayed logical? A neutral 3rd party? No..YOU decide!

It's an 877 number.

JF - I propose that either the forum in general, or the moderators (your choice, but made beforehand), be the judge of whether I was "abused", whether the discussion was logical, and all other relevant factors on this bet.

Given that and the previous bit about follow through, I'm willing to take the bet.

[UnrepentantSinner]

That's a funny part about these Christian shows where they go out and talk to people about "Being saved". They try to make non-Christians look stupid by selecting only those uneducated non-believers who can't defend what they believe in. However when they confront someone who really puts them in their place and refutes their reasoning, they don't air it on their shows.

On The Tonight Show that's a segment called Jay Walking.

You're not going to get many intelligent people who are well versed in a particular subject doing man on the street interviews. Most of the intelligent Christians I know are on-line, and wouldn't wind up being chosen for an Atheist version of the above because they're nerds who stay home on the computer all the time... just like their intelligent atheist counterparts.

[saizai]

That's a funny part about these Christian shows where they go out and talk to people about "Being saved". They try to make non-Christians look stupid by selecting only those uneducated non-believers who can't defend what they believe in. However when they confront someone who really puts them in their place and refutes their reasoning, they don't air it on their shows.

Hmm, interesting possibility.

Does anyone know whether they edit their shows, or whether it goes out live?

If they edit then I would just need to find some way to record it. Skype, perhaps?

[Dustin Kesselberg]

I would volunteer my time to reading the transcript or listening to the podcast(as long as it's free) to determine if SaiZai was logical or "abused" in any way. I am very critical of people who make bad arguments towards the bible or theism simply because it makes arguments against the bible or Christianity or theism as a whole seem less credible. I believe I have a good eye for logic or lack thereof and I would also be very neutral in determining whether SaiZai was logical or not.

What do you think JesusFreak & SaiZai?

[saizai]

Dustin - I consider you a member of the forum in general, as I mentioned in #83, so I am fine by that. I would not be okay with making it up to you alone, since I don't know you enough to have established credibility.

Actually, I propose a slight modification:
The audio, and transcript if available, gets posted in a new thread along with a poll asking:
* was Sai 'abused' (or however you would like to phrase this)
* was the discussion logical
* whatever else would be interesting to ask

I'll accept the majority verdict of such a poll, with the request that a mod or two check it to ensure no sockpuppetry.

Alternately, I'll accept the majority vote of any/all moderators who respond with their opinions on these questions.

Acceptable to you, JF? If yes, which do you prefer - popular or mod-only vote?

[Dustin Kesselberg]

I don't know if JF would agree to that since i'm sure there would be a lot of people on this forum who would just vote any way for him to pay the money simply because they don't like him.

[jesus_freak]

Sounds good to me dustin.
Saizai I look forward to hearing you, as to how hard is it to get through? honestly I do not know. What I can tell you is that on Fridays they do what they call "free for all Friday" where all they do is take in random calls and talk about what ever, so that may be your best bet but feel free to try calling any day. Im up for what ever if you want dustin to judge that is fine or if you want to do a poll I am fine with that also

[jesus_freak]

That's a funny part about these Christian shows where they go out and talk to people about "Being saved". They try to make non-Christians look stupid by selecting only those uneducated non-believers who can't defend what they believe in. However when they confront someone who really puts them in their place and refutes their reasoning, they don't air it on their shows.
I take it you have never listened to the show so how can you say this? like I said non believers call in all the time to discuss many topics

[jesus_freak]

How about this:
1. Confirm that you have a PayPal account.
2. If you don't go through with your end, you get temporarily banned, and permanently have your tagline changed to "Liar" (or some equivalent Tag O' Shame at the moderators' discretion) on this account as well as all other and future accounts of yours.

If you just say something on this thread to the effect of agreeing to #2 above, and officially asking any forum moderator to enforce that, then I think that is sufficient.
deal!

[Dustin Kesselberg]

I take it you have never listened to the show so how can you say this? like I said non believers call in all the time to discuss many topics

I've seen his TV show on one of those Christian channels.

[saizai]

OK then, it's agreed. :) Since you said you are okay with either, I choose the popular vote option.

Can I get a mod as a witness?



One last question - what are their call-in times? The phone # on the website is 1-877-529-4722; hopefully that is the correct one for calling in for the show also.

I'll preview a couple of their shows so I know what it'll be like; I'll withdraw from this bet only if it seems to me to be Limbaugh / O'Reilly grade abusive towards callers. I don't mind them disagreeing with me (that's kinda the point after all), but I don't particularly want to just get cut off or insulted all the time. Hopefully they are the sort capable of holding a polite debate. ;)

As for identification, I'll post here before I call, and I will identify myself on air as Sai and/or saizai. If possible I'll also give a little intro saying that you, jesus_freak from JREF, asked me to come on to have a bit of logical discussion. :)

[Dustin Kesselberg]

OK then, it's agreed. :) Since you said you are okay with either, I choose the popular vote option.

Can I get a mod as a witness?



One last question - what are their call-in times? The phone # on the website is 1-877-529-4722; hopefully that is the correct one for calling in for the show also.

I'll preview a couple of their shows so I know what it'll be like; I'll withdraw from this bet only if it seems to me to be Limbaugh / O'Reilly grade abusive towards callers. I don't mind them disagreeing with me (that's kinda the point after all), but I don't particularly want to just get cut off or insulted all the time. Hopefully they are the sort capable of holding a polite debate. ;)

As for identification, I'll post here before I call, and I will identify myself on air as Sai and/or saizai. If possible I'll also give a little intro saying that you, jesus_freak from JREF, asked me to come on to have a bit of logical discussion. :)


If you're quick on your feet then you can get points in edge wise with people like Limbaugh or O'Reilly. So I wouldn't let that be a deterrent for not calling in. After all you still get the $50 either way.

[jesus_freak]

I believe the call in time in from 3pm to 5pm est.
also you can listen to past shows for free anytime by going to the website, I don't how about getting a transcript. So it sounds like I have a taker and I look forward to hearing your conversation.

[saizai]

If you're quick on your feet then you can get points in edge wise with people like Limbaugh or O'Reilly. So I wouldn't let that be a deterrent for not calling in. After all you still get the $50 either way.

While that's true, I would not find that to be enjoyable; it's like monkeys throwing feces and doing dominance displays.

I'd rather have an actual conversation.

Anyway, I'll queue up recent episodes in iTunes and report back on my opinion.

[jesus_freak]

I'd rather have an actual conversation.
I think you will get that.
I've seen his TV show on one of those Christian channels.
He will probably talk to Todd Friel who is not on the TV show...That I have seen anyway, but you can get a debate between Todd Friel and Dan Barker I think on the website...I think it is still there.

[Bob Klase]

Any suggestions from the audience for a narrow subject (i.e. one minimally prone to getting spun out into a huge logic-free debate) that does not require reference to a lot of evidence

One thought occurs on a somewhat narrow subject after wading through the logic-free zone known as 'livingwaters.com"

To say categorically, "There is no God," is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is no God in the entire universe. No human being has all knowledge. Therefore, none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.

To say categorically "there is only one god" is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true one must know for certain there are no other gods in the entire universe. Based on their own reasoning, they can't truthfully make the assertion (which they obviously must believe) that Allah, Zeus, the tooth fairy or the FSM don't exist.

Of course with their free use of circular reasoning and logic-free thinking, they could easily convince themselves that their god is the only god because 'his' word says so (thereby ignoring all the other writings of gods they don't like).

It has been rightly said that the "atheist" can't find God for the same reason a thief can't find a policeman. He knows that if he admits that there is a God, he is admitting that he is ultimately responsible to Him. This is not a pleasant thought for some.

That was a good one. If we ignore the fact that a thief doesn't go looking for a policeman (and in fact does everything possible to to avoid policeman), then they're saying that thieves don't believe that policeman exist.

But it's been rightly said that religion is opium for the people. It's also been said that ignorance is bliss.

[jesus_freak]

That was a good one. If we ignore the fact that a thief doesn't go looking for a policeman
I think that is kinda the point.

[autumn1971]

Good luck Sai, but remember that those not as well versed in logic and philosophy as you are may find technical language difficult, especially on radio, where visual perusal of a logical form is not possible. I would advise you to keep to simple points and only address logical inconsistancies in the simplest manner, in order to make good use of airtime.

give 'em an unknown oblivious state which many assume to be the end of our mental and corporeal beings.

[Bob Klase]

I think that is kinda the point.

Then it's similar to many of their other points- and just as wrong. In most civilized counties, anyone looking for a policeman will find one in a reasonable time. Many people go looking for a god for years and don't find one. (Perhaps god is better at hiding than policemen).

[jesus_freak]

Many people go looking for a god for years and don't find one.
I agree and I think it is because they are looking for a God who tells them that their life style is ok and they dont need to change. The problem is that God does not exsist and that is why they do not find Him. On the other hand if you look at your self as a terrible sinner in the eyes of God who is judging you against perfection then you will see why He sent Christ to cover our punishment. Untill you see how truly wicked your heart is I don't think you will see a reason for a savior.

[saizai]

To say categorically "there is only one god" is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true one must know for certain there are no other gods in the entire universe. Based on their own reasoning, they can't truthfully make the assertion (which they obviously must believe) that Allah, Zeus, the tooth fairy or the FSM don't exist.

Of course with their free use of circular reasoning and logic-free thinking, they could easily convince themselves that their god is the only god because 'his' word says so (thereby ignoring all the other writings of gods they don't like).

Actually, all they have to show is that
a) their god is omniscient
b) their god is honest
c) their god said that he's the only one
d) their god exists

Thus the burden of knowledge is shifted to the god.

Otherwise, that would have been a good argument. ;)

[saizai]

Good luck Sai, but remember that those not as well versed in logic and philosophy as you are may find technical language difficult, especially on radio, where visual perusal of a logical form is not possible. I would advise you to keep to simple points and only address logical inconsistancies in the simplest manner, in order to make good use of airtime.

*nod* Of course. Which is why I think the "argument from coconut" would make a good one, and one which I can lead into with a nice summary of their position and the obligatory compliments. (I can quite truthfully say, for example, that I found the video entertaining and interesting... :D) I can always shift into the formal logic, but that takes up more time, and not everyone can work with that format. (Anyone listened to enough of them to know whether they can / do?)

Here on JREF I assume that everyone I talk to can - because this is a skeptic's forum, and I assume especially that someone trying to take me on in a debate here is willing to abide by the usual bits of avoiding fallacies etc, or they wouldn't have tried. So far I have not been disappointed too often :); on other boards I expect that would be different. (And I'd get pure-emotion fallacious arguments that don't even try to address my responses.)

give 'em an unknown oblivious state which many assume to be the end of our mental and corporeal beings.

*grin* I thought hell was supposed to be scarier than an opium trip?
:D


Any suggestions for alternate good topics to have in store in case it goes long?

[slingblade]

I agree and I think it is because they are looking for a God who tells them that their life style is ok and they dont need to change. The problem is that God does not exsist and that is why they do not find Him. On the other hand if you look at your self as a terrible sinner in the eyes of God who is judging you against perfection then you will see why He sent Christ to cover our punishment. Untill you see how truly wicked your heart is I don't think you will see a reason for a savior.


Oh, you had to go there, huh?


Let's see. I was a Christian since I was old enough to remember being one. Got saved, baptized, had my kids dedicated to God in church, the works.

Unfortunately, God could never seem to find ME. All the years I prayed for my good Christian church-going husband to quit hitting me, quit screwing someone new every week, if not every day, quit drinking, quit coke, quit crack, quit lying, quit stealing.....

And yet, somehow, the pastors of every church he took us to were somehow convinced that the problem was mine..... The one who didn't drink, didn't cheat, and reared his children while hiding the bruises. Yeah, I can see how all the problems were my fault.

So what was it about my lifestyle that this imaginary God didn't like? My praying? My tithing? My attending church 3 times a week? Did he perhaps disapprove of my staying in a loveless and abusive marriage in order to preserve the structure of my family? Maybe the fact that I read my bible honked him off, you suppose?

Oh, well. All I know is now I'm divorced and unemployed, and my ex is a millionaire AND a pastor of his own church!

Yeah. Some of us figure out that life is what YOU make it, not some imaginary old man in a beard. I made nothing of my life because I thought God was going to hear my prayers and fix it. And now I'm too broken to be fixed. Believe me, I've tried. And tried and tried.

You and your god just go be happy somewhere.

I'm fine.

[Foster Zygote]

I think that is kinda the point.

You're missing Bob's point. As he pointed out, a thief knows that policemen exist. The thief doesn't say "I see no evidence supporting the existence of the police". So we can say a Christian avoids Satan in much the same way that a thief avoids a policeman because both find danger, real or imaginary, in what they endeavor to avoid. But atheists don't avoid gods any more than they avoid the tooth fairy.

[saizai]

BTW, JF - are you the same JF as on YouTube?

[Foster Zygote]

I agree and I think it is because they are looking for a God who tells them that their life style is ok and they dont need to change. The problem is that God does not exsist and that is why they do not find Him. On the other hand if you look at your self as a terrible sinner in the eyes of God who is judging you against perfection then you will see why He sent Christ to cover our punishment. Untill you see how truly wicked your heart is I don't think you will see a reason for a savior.

You seem to be making the assumption that atheists have never had any sort of religious beliefs in the past. Ironically, most of the atheists I know used to be quite religious. I used to think I saw how truly wicked my heart was. I used to think I needed a savior to save me from the wrath of a god who was judging me against perfection. That was the message I was given by my Christian teachers. But now I see that sort of message as the abuse it is. It's a control technique often used in cults. People who hate and loath themselves, who are filled with shame and feel worthless are easier for authority figures to control.

[cyborg]

I'm pretty sure I know my own challenge thank you very much...and I see you once again stoop to the name calling level...You sir are a class act!

Name calling would be to call you a name.

Liar is a descriptive term based on the fact that you are misrepresenting what you said earlier.

I don't know who you think you're going to fool and what you think you're going to achieve.

[saizai]

I've listened to a couple episodes from the show and it seems to be relatively ok. I have yet to hear them talk to an atheist or agnostic though, just other theists; perhaps they would treat a non-theist differently. (I have seen some people have major phase changes like that.)

One thing that I noticed though on the call-in show is that at least one person mention that it took them 2 months to get on...

I'll try emailing to see if they can reserve me a slot.

[bignickel]

There's an important issue that's been overlooked here:

I'd like to ask what evidence Jesus_freak would need in order to pay out the money? ie if they don't air saizai's call, then what evidence will Jesus_freak accept that saizai called?

[hgc]

I think I'd rather go with the coconut/pineapple argument.
Satan's Victuals! All Godly food is easy to get at and fits the hand like a gun!

[Skeptic]

http://d.im.craigslist.org/pB/Mt/k3zIBWv7Kl810Wm7Y12t5mmczvj1.jpg

Either the guy in the suit is really short or Jesus needs to be drafted for the NBA.

[largeprimenumber]

"Way of the Master" sounds like a pickup guide for lonely men.

I'm listening to the show in which he takes on Richard Dawkins second-hand and apparently, the "Way of the Master" is simply to be as charismatic as possible, banking on the likelihood that your opponent doesn't practice such things.

His protesting atheist voice impression is pretty hilarious.

Reminds me of Penn, actually.

[ChristineR]

I personally would go for the two deaths of Judas:

1When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

2And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.

3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

4Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

5And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

6And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.

7And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.

8Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.

9Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

10And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.




18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)



The usual argument is something along the lines that Judas hung himself then he fell. Which makes Matthew look at best misinformed, and at worst an idiot. Who would mention that someone hung himself and not mention that he didn't die? (Or conversely, who would mention that someone fell without mentioning that he fell from a noose?) To me it's the ultimate distortion of the text, the polar opposite of literalism, and the polar opposite of taking the Bible seriously.

But that's just me. :o

[flume]

I listened to the archived show from feb 5 (I think it was), where they had the guy, Michael Zimmerman who apparently came up with idea of Evolution Sunday. He is an evolutionary biologist. So these guys had set up an interview, and when he went on the air for the interview he found that they had got Ken Ham (Answers In Genesis) on the air too to debate him. I listened to part of that show. Zimmerman started out sounding articulate to me. Then as his explanation headed toward macroevolution, Ham and the moderator switched the topic on him, the moderator asking if he was a Christian and Ham widening the topic to include the origin of the universe and abiogenesis. When he tried to get the topic back to his field, evolutionary biology, Ham kept saying that these wider things WERE part of his field because without the cosmos there would be no evolutionary biology (or some such wordng). At that point I got exasperated and stopped listening.

JF, did you listen to that particular show? Did you notice how they fled from the topic?


------------------------------------------------------------------


slingblade, that is so rough! You have my sympathy and best wishes.

[FaisonMars]

Either the guy in the suit is really short or Jesus needs to be drafted for the NBA.

Jesus has already been in the NBA!

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/50097?issue=4227&special=1996

[Tricky]

Jesus has already been in the NBA!

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/50097?issue=4227&special=1996
You joke, but God really has been in the NBA (http://slamonline.com/online/2006/11/chinese-hoops-report/).

[FaisonMars]

He is an evolutionary biologist. So these guys had set up an interview, and when he went on the air for the interview he found that they had got Ken Ham (Answers In Genesis) on the air too to debate him. I listened to part of that show.


I couldn't find that show on itunes, but I don't think it's possible to have a logical discussion with Ken Ham. I can't think of a bigger nutcase on the YEC side. "Answers in Genesis" is the site that had banners saying "Evolutionists want to kill you!"

In the bits of the Feb. 23 show that I listened to with Todd, it sounds like he's willing to give you a little bit of time to state your position, but then he's also going to use every radio/rhetorical trick to keep himself on top, interrupting and changing the topic as necessary, all the while keeping a condescending tone in his voice, much like Rush Limbaugh. If an atheist called in, I expect that before long the conversation would descend into, "I feel so sorry for you, and I pray that Jesus will open your heart," etc.. I look forward to hearing Saizai on the show.

When I lived in Chicago, I tried to call in several times to the Moody Institute radio show to talk about materialism and dualism, but I never got through.

By the way, regarding Ken Ham, I always wondered:
Ken Ham and Charlie the Australopithecine, separated at birth?

http://lfo.astro.yale.edu/ken-ham.jpg


(If you don't know Charlie: http://www.salon.com/comics/boll/2007/02/08/boll/index1.html)

[ChristineR]

These are my thoughts about JF. I could be all wrong, so if I am, sorry.

He/she is still pretty young, and is a sincere, believing Christian. He/she goes to a church where no one presents the ideas of non-Christians in a sincere, fair manner. In fact, his/her church leaders distort and misrepresent atheists, evolution, what the Bible really says, and so on.

So he/she stumbled on this internet board full of people, who he/she was taught were evil and ignorant, and set about to help us. When JF realized we weren't evil and ignorant, he/she got the idea of presenting us to these professionals who seem to win every argument that they ever have with non-believers.

So I would like to present JF with some basic facts.

(1) Not all atheists are ignorant of Christianity. Some are, but lots of us are actually Christians who studied the Bible so long that it became clear to us that the Bible is not the inerrant word of God.

(2) Atheists are not evil. Not everyone defines "sinful" and "evil" the same way, but I'm not aware of any evidence that atheists are more sinful than Christians. We don't drink more than Christians, or do more drugs. Our kids are not any more likely to be gay. We don't commit more crimes. We don't lie more. We don't have more abortions. Our ethics vary from very strict to pretty laid back, just like anyone else.

(These are all things that people have studied. I can dig up some of the info if you like, but since these sorts of things are very hard to quantify, it's not hard to dismiss the evidence if you dislike it.)

(3) Atheists do get annoyed. There is one thread floating around discussing a letter to the editor which claims that atheists are responsible for all murders, even ones committed by Christians. We get tired of that sort of thing, just as we get tired of telling Christians that yes, we have read the Bible, and no, it did not make us Christian.

(4) Atheists are not all avoiding God. Lots of atheists and agnostics are actively looking for God.

(5) Atheists do not become atheists so that they can get away with sinning and not feeling guilty. There's not a crime on the planet that someone hasn't justified with religion, and the central teaching of Christianity is that you can do whatever you like and God will forgive you afterwards. So from our point of view, it looks like people become religious so that they can justify their sinning, not the other way around.

(6) Atheists do not know deep inside that there actually is a God. Even when I was a devout Christian, I think I knew deep inside that the evidence was against me, and that sooner or later I'd have to face up to it.

(7) Not all Christian teachers are honest and fair to atheists. It's very common for Christian teachers to distort evidence simply to show atheists (or evolutionists) in a bad light. They do this for a Christian audience, so it's not surprising that you have seen this sort of trickery.

(8) We care about you. We care about you for the simple reason that you come to this board and post and behave pretty decently. We don't care about these other guys. Other rational thinkers have tried to talk to them, and they always just bluster and say something clever to make their opponent look bad. We don't do that...we get Penn Gillette to do that for us. :)

[jesus_freak]

Well Christine here is what I can tell you about me and my faith.
I am 29 married and have two children. My church actually spends very little time talking about non believers and I do not think I have ever even heard the word evolution in it.There was a debate between a Christian and an Atheist at a near by University that the Pastor had suggested that we go see...which I did...But believe it or not at Church we actually just listen to the gospel and do not conspire against any other religion,or belief.

[latent aaaack]

Well Christine here is what I can tell you about me and my faith.
I am 29 married and have two children. My church actually spends very little time talking about non believers and I do not think I have ever even heard the word evolution in it.There was a debate between a Christian and an Atheist at a near by University that the Pastor had suggested that we go see...which I did...But believe it or not at Church we actually just listen to the gospel and do not conspire against any other religion,or belief.

Do you know what the position of your church is on the subject of evolution? Unless your sig is an inside joke then I don't think it would be off base to assume you've been exposed to a lot of religious teachings that don't square with science.

The sequence of events that lead you to your current beliefs would be of interest to us and I agree with Christine about you seeming like a civil poster compared to others that end up here with mostly opposing views.

[jesus_freak]

Well I can say that I am pretty sure that any Bible based church is going to teach creation over evolution. The sequence of events that lead me to my belief? wow where do I start...I guess ever since elementry school I like anyone else in a public school after roughly 1965 was taught about evolution and that earth is billions of years old. As a child I went to a Lutheran chuch and Sunday school, where I was taught just about the complete oppsoite of what I was taught in school. When I got to high school I would say around my junior year I stopped just believing what I was being taught because a part of me knew that it was wrong. Like most when I went away to college I stopped going to church because my parents no longer made me and I listened to the whole evolution argument some more but honestly at that point in time I didn't care...All I was worried about was how I was gonna get beer for the night. After college I moved from Minnesota to San Diego and really began to search for what I believed. As much as I wanted to not take responsibility for all the thoughts and actions that I had done in the past and would rather continue to have sex with as many girls as possibleI knew that I would some day be judged and was going to be found guity as sentinced to eternity in hell, I think that I always was very aware of this fact. It was a short time later that I had married one of my friends in college that I had met through another friend, she too is a Christian. About two years ago I repented of my sins and put my faith in Jesus Christ and although I can not explain some of the things that people consider to be contradictions in the Bible or some other questions that people may have, I know that what Christ did for all of us is greater than will ever know. I do continue to question at times something that I may read in the Bible or hear on the news but through prayer and study I have continued to know that Christ died for all of our sins so that we may all inherit eternal life. Thats it in a nut shell.

[Bob Klase]

I agree and I think it is because they are looking for a God who tells them that their life style is ok and they dont need to change.

I think it's because there is no god to find. I also think it's very simplistic to assume that one statement like that would cover everyone who ever looked for a god and didn't find one.

The problem is that God does not exsist and that is why they do not find Him.

Strange. That's what I said before you seemed to disagree with. Now you agree that god does not exist.

On the other hand if you look at your self as a terrible sinner in the eyes of God who is judging you against perfection then you will see why He sent Christ to cover our punishment.

And if you look at your teeth as valuable body parts then you will see why the tooth fairy pays for them when they fall out.

Untill you see how truly wicked your heart is I don't think you will see a reason for a savior.

Whether I see a reason for a savior has no bearing on whether a savior exists. If I see a reason for the earth to have 7 moons, there will still be only one.

[cyborg]

Sex. Guilt. Death. Fear.

The usual suspects it is then.

[jesus_freak]

OK I get it Bob you are so much smarter than all of us Chrisitans. You think that what we believe in is a fairy tale and is completly stupid. That is fine and I don't really care what you think like I have said before all that is going to matter in the end is the truth..and there is only one truth no matter what anyone else says there is only one truth...I hope for your sake and for the sake of many others on this forum that your view of truth is correct...I don't think it is and I am willing to stake my life on what I believe and so apparently are you...I am not trying to convert anyone to what I believe in and have respect for any belief and I will never imply that they are stupid for believing what they do...I will continue to state what I believe in and why, while I listen to all other views. Your analogies of the tooth fairy and 9 moons or what ever do not bother me and are not going to change my mind so you can just go ahead and do your thing.

[jesus_freak]

Sex. Guilt. Death. Fear.

The usual suspects it is then.

Wrong...I still have plenty of sex...do not feel guilty about my past...I do know that I will die(I guess you got me there)...and I do not fear being judged.

[jesus_freak]

tell me cyborg if you do not mind... what is your story?

[flume]

JF, it sounds like ideas about creation and evolution didn't play much part in your religion so far. Does it really matter to you that evolution is well-supported by science? Does that really threaten your belief? If you're determined to interpret the Bible literally in a way that says there must have been a young earth and no evolution, can't you just decide that God created the world in such a way that it APPEARS that the earth is old and that evolution occurred? I mean, my preference would be for you to take a non-literal view of Genesis, but if you are committed to a literal view, I wish you would accept that evolution is a reasonable interpretation of accurate and reasonable measurements. Just accept the apparent conflict between evolution and Genesis as some unfathomable act of God and let it go? I hate the squirrely science-bashing that the creationists do.

Am I suggesting a reasonable position?

[cyborg]

What, you mean why am I an atheist?

I'm afraid if you're expecting an emotional reason you will not find one. It is purely a logical realisation. Raised in a nominally Christian way in a nominally Christian country I hardly ever had much pressure to be a Christian anyway. Never really bought it even as a child. Since I always liked the Greek myths and I couldn't differentiate between the stories of the Bible and the stories of the myths I had no reason to conclude otherwise.

Can't say I've ever been abused by religion or anything like that. I simply don't buy the story because the story simply doesn't provide any merit for me.

Now, I did not say anything about 'sex' now, or 'guilt' now - just that I noted the major themes of your story.

Emotion is a poor guide to reality. I keep mine in their proper place when I consider these things.

[Bob Klase]

OK I get it Bob you are so much smarter than all of us Chrisitans.

Perhaps you do get. You christians are so much smarter than all of us who don't believe the things you do. The difference is that I have never gone out and actively tried to convert anyone to my beliefs- I only reply when christians start trying to show me that they're the ones with the answers.

You think that what we believe in is a fairy tale and is completly stupid. That is fine and I don't really care what you think

And you think that what everyone else believes is stupid and completely wrong. That's also fine. I don't really care what you think until you (and other christians) start trying to force your beliefs on everyone- and that's very common.

I will continue to state what I believe in and why, while I listen to all other views. Your analogies of the tooth fairy and 9 moons or what ever do not bother me and are not going to change my mind so you can just go ahead and do your thing.

I didn't expect to change your mind. Logic, reason and evidence are nothing when they're up against faith based on a strong desire for something to be true.

[saizai]

I personally would go for the two deaths of Judas:

I'd prefer to only minimally go into biblical irregularities; I'm sure that they can out-quote me and find some way to rationalize it.

But I can use e.g. the depreciation of the sabbath commandment to show that the 10 commandments aren't the accurate source of morality, then go from that into how agnostics/atheists can be moral in the normal sense.

[strathmeyer]

You think that what we believe in is a fairy tale and is completly stupid.

First of all, if you're going to try to insult other people's intelligence, it may help to spell words correctly.

Secondly, if what you believe isn't a fairy tale, then I would expect all sick Christians to tell their doctors that they don't want to the latest scientific remedy for their ailment, since they don't believe in that stuff. Since Christians don't do that shouldn't we believe that even they don't believe in their fairy tale?

[saizai]

"Way of the Master" sounds like a pickup guide for lonely men.

That was actually the first thing I thought of too. :p "The Master.... the pick up master!" (Yahweh must be a pretty lonely guy...)

I'm listening to the show in which he takes on Richard Dawkins second-hand and apparently, the "Way of the Master" is simply to be as charismatic as possible, banking on the likelihood that your opponent doesn't practice such things.

Which show is that? I should hear how they treat him. ;)

[jesus_freak]

First of all, if you're going to try to insult other people's intelligence, it may help to spell words correctly.
I dont think I have tried to insult other peoples intelligence.

[Myriad]

In the interest of clear communication...

The problem is that God does not exsist and that is why they do not find Him.

Strange. That's what I said before you seemed to disagree with. Now you agree that god does not exist.

I read that as unclarity due to punctuation. Read it as, "The problem is, that God (that is, a God who will accept your lifestyle) doesn't exist."

Then there are some of us who believe that God does exist.

I do know that I will die(I guess you got me there)...and I do not fear being judged.

I'm glad that you don't fear being judged, jf. But that confidence appears to be based on your belief that you're doing/not doing all the right things in order to be saved. That's why you do fear for everyone else.

Suppose, instead, your confidence were instead based on loving your neighbor and trusting in a wise God who does not burn His children. Despite what the Bible says about "abominations" and floods and wrath. Despite what self-serving preachers tell you about sin and judgment and hellfire. Have some, you know, faith. Then you wouldn't need to be worrying about all the atheists and Buddhists and Hindu and Universalists and non-evangelical Christians out there.

And then, maybe, you'd have a respectful compassionate answer to offer to slingblade, whose heartfelt questions you could not face. What did you want to tell her, when you read her post? That she must have been doing something wrong and she's just not saying what it was? That God was testing her faith, like Job's, and she failed at the end? That you have no idea, but she better turn back to religion pronto or else end up in hell? You realized, to your credit, that saying any of these things would be mean and insensitive. But you had nothing you could say. Why is that? Do you think Jesus means for you to turn away from a person in pain, or is there some part of His teaching that you haven't grasped yet?

My answer would be this: slingblade, you've been lied to and you've suffered unimaginably because of it. For you to have faith in God at this point would be absurd. Therefore, the God I believe in would not require it of you, would not even ask it of you. But you do need faith, in something else: that you are not broken beyond repair. That you have, from now, a better chance at real happiness than your "ex," whose promiscuity bespeaks a life devoid of love, whose money cannot make up for living a lie every day. No, you are not fine, but you are stronger than you were yesterday. There is love and purpose in the world for you, not at all conditional on what you believe about God but utterly dependent on what you decide to do.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Moochie]

Wait a minute, are these the same guys who assure us that a banana is proof that God exists because it has an easy open tab, fits the hand perfectly, and seems to be made to fit into our mouths. (Of course it makes one wonder what god was thinking when he created the coconut)

And here I thought Kirk Camerons 80's sitcom was bad.

McCragge

I'm still stuck on what he might have been thinking of when he created the banana. :D

M.

[Ladewig]

I'd prefer to only minimally go into biblical irregularities; I'm sure that they can out-quote me and find some way to rationalize it.



You could focus on the age of the earth. There is ample evidence that the world is more than 6000 years old.

Some evidence, such as dendrochronology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrochronology), is simple enough that listeners not versed in advanced sciences can understand it.

[Ladewig]

Well I can say that I am pretty sure that any Bible based church is going to teach creation over evolution.

While there are tens of millions of Christians in the U.S. that believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old, there are also tens of millions of Christians that believe the universe is over 14 billion years old. It is possible to study and embrace the Bible while believing in evolution.

[saizai]

You could focus on the age of the earth. There is ample evidence that the world is more than 6000 years old.

Some evidence, such as dendrochronology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrochronology), is simple enough that listeners not versed in advanced sciences can understand it.

As I said, I don't want to get into a contest over evidence; unless people can agree what the evidence on the table is, then it just turns into a "who's got the more authoritarian voice" contest, which I would lose on their home turf.

Unfortunately, the age of the earth and human evolution would require recourse to specific evidence that they would not agree exists (viz the usual assertions about 'missing link's and various bogus fossils), so this isn't a good one to use.

[jesus_freak]

It is possible to study and embrace the Bible while believing in evolution.
Actually no it is not. You either embrace the idea that God created the earth and every thing on it in 6 days or you believe that things evolved over millions or billions of years.

[temporalillusion]

Actually no it is not. You either embrace the idea that God created the earth and every thing on it in 6 days or you believe that things evolved over millions or billions of years.

The many Christians who believe evolution would disagree with you.

[jesus_freak]

Please explain to me how a Christian can believe in evolution?

[Lonewulf]

Actually no it is not. You either embrace the idea that God created the earth and every thing on it in 6 days or you believe that things evolved over millions or billions of years.

Here's a question:

What is a "Day"? Seriously, what is a day?

A day = 24 hours.

24 hours, right? What's that based off of? Guess what? The time it takes for the Earth to rotate once.

So God made the Earth in six days? Any reason he picked, in particular, solar days based on Earth time?

[Lonewulf]

Please explain to me how a Christian can believe in evolution?

In the same way that a Christian can believe that the solar system is heliocentric instead of geocentric.

If God could create life, why didn't he create the universe and Campbell's Primordial Soup and then go off to rest?

[temporalillusion]

Well to be positive you would have to ask one who believes it.

But I would assume it would be along the lines of the creation story being just that, a story which is used to communicate a point like God's power or whatever.

I think what you mean to ask is how can a Biblical Literalist believe in evolution...

Not all Christians believe that the Bible is intended to be taken 100% literally.

[SimonD]

And then, maybe, you'd have a respectful compassionate answer to offer to slingblade, whose heartfelt questions you could not face. What did you want to tell her, when you read her post? That she must have been doing something wrong and she's just not saying what it was? That God was testing her faith, like Job's, and she failed at the end? That you have no idea, but she better turn back to religion pronto or else end up in hell? You realized, to your credit, that saying any of these things would be mean and insensitive. But you had nothing you could say. Why is that? Do you think Jesus means for you to turn away from a person in pain, or is there some part of His teaching that you haven't grasped yet?

My answer would be this: slingblade, you've been lied to and you've suffered unimaginably because of it. For you to have faith in God at this point would be absurd. Therefore, the God I believe in would not require it of you, would not even ask it of you. But you do need faith, in something else: that you are not broken beyond repair. That you have, from now, a better chance at real happiness than your "ex," whose promiscuity bespeaks a life devoid of love, whose money cannot make up for living a lie every day. No, you are not fine, but you are stronger than you were yesterday. There is love and purpose in the world for you, not at all conditional on what you believe about God but utterly dependent on what you decide to do.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Slingblade, I would not have thought of you as broken either. Sounds to me like you got out of a 'broken' situation and tried to fix it. You saw a problem and fixed it. You did not contiune to believe in something, just because someone in power told you it was true. And, while I am sure that you still feel pain and hurt everyday from your ordeal, it sounds like you are much better off then before.

[bignickel]

I would still like an answer to my question:

I'd like to ask what evidence Jesus_freak would need in order to pay out the money? ie if they don't air saizai's call, then what evidence will Jesus_freak accept that saizai called?

[Zep]

I dont think I have tried to insult other peoples intelligence.Correction: In your arrogance about your own beliefs and your ignorance of others, you don't appear to KNOW that you have tried.

It would be like the US President trying to tell us in another country what is good for us, and that we should do exactly what he tells us to do. Thing is, it isn't his place to do that, and it shows his ignorance in thinking he can. It also breeds resentment and anger.

Do you understand that analogy? Do you understand what it means? I hope so...

[saizai]

I would still like an answer to my question:

I'd like to ask what evidence Jesus_freak would need in order to pay out the money? ie if they don't air saizai's call, then what evidence will Jesus_freak accept that saizai called?

I think that the bet was not that I would attempt, but that I would have an actual on-air conversation. That makes it my problem if they choose not to take me on the air or if I can't get through.

I'll try recording it though just in case.

Anyone know a good way to record from Skype on a standard laptop w/ USB mic?

[bignickel]

I think that the bet was not that I would attempt, but that I would have an actual on-air conversation. That makes it my problem if they choose not to take me on the air or if I can't get through.
Actually, no, it wasn't that you have an on-air conversation:
He is my "challenge" to all non-believers...
I will send $50 to the first person to call way of the master radio (1-877-law-grace I believe is the number) and talk to Todd, Ray, or Kirk and have a logical conversation about atheism.

You can talk to them til you're blue in the face, but that doesn't mean that they'll air it. In fact, the better you are, the less likely they'll air it, I figure...

[Ladewig]

Actually no it is not. You either embrace the idea that God created the earth and every thing on it in 6 days or you believe that things evolved over millions or billions of years.

A year or two ago, the Episocpal General Assembly (the ruling body of that church) passed a resolution stating that "evolution is entirely compatible with an authentic and living Christian faith." Are of the position that they are not Christians?

If you, yourself, are a YEC (young Earth creationist) how do you view the evidence that the universe is ~14 billion years old and that the Earth is ~4 billion years old?

ETA: I do not want to sidetrack this thread. If you have limited time please address Saizai's concerns first.

[Ladewig]

As I said, I don't want to get into a contest over evidence; unless people can agree what the evidence on the table is, then it just turns into a "who's got the more authoritarian voice" contest, which I would lose on their home turf.

Unfortunately, the age of the earth and human evolution would require recourse to specific evidence that they would not agree exists (viz the usual assertions about 'missing link's and various bogus fossils), so this isn't a good one to use.

Then perhaps the order of events surrounding the resurrection.

[DuckTapeFileMan]

Please explain to me how a Christian can believe in evolution?

didn't Jesus say something about , if you believe in him then you would have eternal life?

Did he even mention the age of the Earth or how the Univere was created in this?


Really the bible is a rough guide, a scruffy collection of texts, some maybe inspired by God some the ravings of druken jews from the past.

[Beleth]

Please explain to me how a Christian can believe in evolution?
A Christian is a person who believes in the divinity of Jesus, and who follows the teachings of Jesus.

What part of that definition mentions evolution?

[Ducky]

edited. nevermind. jesus_freak won't get it.

[cyborg]

A sufficiently liberal interpretation of Genesis 1 would lead one to conclude that God is giving a metaphorical outline of evolution: starting with the simplest of constructs - light - to the most complex - man.

Days are eons. The process of creation is evolution.

Whatever. It's bullflop all the way.

[jesus_freak]

Oh I see so plants could live for eons with no sunlight...Is that what you are saying?

And what exactly does this have to do with the Jesus_freak challenge? Nothing...maybe you could move this to the Bible is 100% true and to be taken litteraly thread.Thanks

[cyborg]

JF, that is usually my argument as to why it is ridiculous in either case.

The people writing the book just didn't know about the relationship between plants and light.

[Beleth]

Oh I see so plants could live for eons with no sunlight...Is that what you are saying?
Why do you believe that plants would have had to live for eons without sunlight?

Why do you believe that God couldn't make plants that could live for eons without sunlight?

[jesus_freak]

He is my "challenge" to all non-believers...
I will send $50 to the first person to call way of the master radio (1-877-law-grace I believe is the number) and talk to Todd, Ray, or Kirk and have a logical conversation about atheism. I don't care if you convince anyone one way or another, but just go on and give your arguments for atheism, and listen to what they have to say. I look forward to a participant!
It would be easier for it to be on air also.

It doesn't have to be on air I guess...I am a pretty trusting guy so if Saizai says that he called in and didn't get on air I will pay him. However I don't think it will be a problem, especially if he were to call in on a friday.

[FaisonMars]

Anyone know a good way to record from Skype on a standard laptop w/ USB mic?

Are you using mac, linux, or windows?

On my mac, I use a program called "Audio Hijack Pro" that can record the audio from any application and compress it into MP3 (very useful for recording streaming audio, and also useful for recording skype calls). I'm sure there are similar applications out there for other operating systems.

[FaisonMars]

Correction: In your arrogance about your own beliefs and your ignorance of others, you don't appear to KNOW that you have tried.


FWIW, I'd just like to say that I think JF has been remarkably civil on this board, and like Christine, I'm glad he's here.

There's a touch of arrogance in what he's saying because he knows he's right, and since his belief is based on faith, he can't be proved wrong (and none of us atheists can see the light because we refuse to accept what inherently evil sinners we are, and we refuse to accept God's Infinite Grace). But I would not say he's tried to insult anyone's intelligence.

[SimonD]

JF,

Would you rape, kill and murder children if the Bible told you to?

[FaisonMars]

JF,

Would you rape, kill and murder children if the Bible told you to?

The Hebrew Bible CLEARLY calls for the genocide of non-believers... see the entire book of Joshua, just for starters.

The New Testament CLEARLY calls for the subjugation of women (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:34), but most mainstream Christians find this morally abhorrent and try to get around it.

[ChristineR]

It's Sunday, JF is probably busy...Given the comments about being "ganged up on" floating about I'm tempted to go over to the other side and answer the genocide one, but maybe JF has his own opinions....

[Ossai]

jesus_freak
Actually no it is not. You either embrace the idea that God created the earth and every thing on it in 6 days or you believe that things evolved over millions or billions of years.
You said that you have children. Did you have them vaccinated? Have you, your wife, or your children ever been sick and been to the doctor (I don’t mean broken bones, or that type of injury, but some type of illness)? Are you, or do you know anyone that is diabetic? Know anyone that has or ever had cancer?
If you answer yes to even a single one of those questions, then you’re a liar. You don’t believe in a literal bible.

Ossai

[saizai]

You can talk to them til you're blue in the face, but that doesn't mean that they'll air it. In fact, the better you are, the less likely they'll air it, I figure...

Oh, now I see what you mean.

I figure that part is my responsibility, right? So if they don't air it then I should have a recording. I don't expect anyone to simply take my word on it that I called and talked to them for hours and they were too scared to put it on air. :D;)

[saizai]

Then perhaps the order of events surrounding the resurrection.

Again - I don't want to argue something that is intra-biblical; while I know more than ye average person (including ye average Christian, sadly), I don't know as much as they do on that and I'm sure they can run circles around me.

Which is why I want to stick to something that is logic-based and only refers to everyday experience, not just internally to the bible or externally to large amounts of evidence (like fossils).

[saizai]

Are you using mac, linux, or windows?

WinVista, Skype 3, USB Logitech QuickCam Pro 4000, generic motherboard audio card.

So far the only app that has worked is PrettyMay, but its audio quality sucks (and it limits recordings to 15 minutes). Pamela won't authorize, PowerGramo crashes, KishKish doesn't have recording in the free version (and I'm broke and couldn't find a crack or serial ;)). I'm not yet sure if TotalRecorder works, but it inserts noise unless you pay 'em off (and again, no crack or serial available).

[DuckTapeFileMan]

you could ask about all the parasitic animals that plague humans and how they survived the flood.

ALso what did any of the carnivorse that were on the ark eat as they returned to their countries.

plus, there would have been other boats at sea at the time of any flood, and many people who were not chosen for the ark would have been saved. including pirates :)

[bignickel]

How about you acknowledge every miracle and event in the bible, and then ask them how that proves an omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, all-loving, all-forgiving god... instead of Zeus, Baal, aliens, Minerva, or Loki?

[jesus_freak]

you could ask about all the parasitic animals that plague humans and how they survived the flood.

ALso what did any of the carnivorse that were on the ark eat as they returned to their countries.

plus, there would have been other boats at sea at the time of any flood, and many people who were not chosen for the ark would have been saved. including pirates :)

I can tell you that the Bible says all animals were vegitarians before the flood, and It would take more than a pirate ship to survive that flood!

[temporalillusion]

A pirate ship manned by Ninjas would totally make it though ;)

[Lonewulf]

I can tell you that the Bible says all animals were vegitarians before the flood...

Yeah, 'cause, that makes so much sense.

...In a very non-sensical way.

You're right, JF. Evolution has nothin' on ya. An invisible guy mentioned in a book with vegetarian animals and unicorns. It all makes sense now.

[Lonewulf]

A pirate ship manned by Ninjas would totally make it though ;)

Oh hell yeah.

[autumn1971]

Sai, one sidetrack I can see as plausible is a heated discussion of why your agnosticism is the same as atheism, so keeping away from the semantics of labels may be for the best. I know your agnosticism is a philosophy you are not averse to talking about, I think, though, that the subtleties in difference between it and atheism should be given a pass. Surely there is some kind of forum somewhere that you could broach that topic in.

[saizai]

Sai, one sidetrack I can see as plausible is a heated discussion of why your agnosticism is the same as atheism, so keeping away from the semantics of labels may be for the best. I know your agnosticism is a philosophy you are not averse to talking about, I think, though, that the subtleties in difference between it and atheism should be given a pass. Surely there is some kind of forum somewhere that you could broach that topic in.

I don't think that this would come up. If I claimed atheism, they would try to show that I'm actually an agnostic (and rightly so). But if I claim agnosticism I see no reason why the atheism vs agnosticism question would arise. And I certainly wouldn't raise it, since it's irrelevant to their stance / arguments.

[Zep]

I can tell you that the Bible says all animals were vegitarians before the flood!Please quote the Bible where it says that. Thanks!

[RandFan]

As much as I wanted to not take responsibility for all the thoughts and actions that I had done in the past and would rather continue to have sex with as many girls as possibleI knew that I would some day be judged and was going to be found guity as sentinced to eternity in hell, I think that I always was very aware of this fact. Hi JF.

I grew up believing that god cared about the sex lives of humans. So much so that I remained celibate until I was 22 even though I had a number of opportunities to have sex. I graduated seminary and went on a 2 year mission. I served in leadership roles in my church and volunteered as scoutmaster and Sunday school teacher. I very much liked church. I had always had questions but I was able to keep my faith strong even though the questions always nagged at me.

Because of a number of things it became obvious to me that if there was a god he/she didn't have any interaction with humans on a day to day basis. I began to read more and more and my mind opened. It was devastating to me but one day I realized that religion was the work of humans. It was the only answer that could possibly reconcile so many questions. Like why are there are so many different religions? Why are the differences clearly a function of geography and culture? Why didn't God send prophets to all corners of the world at the same time, from the beginningg? Why does the morality of the Old Testament mirror the morality of it's times including slavery, genocide and infanticide? Why did the enlightened philosophy of the New Testament follow the enlightened advancements made by the early Greeks? Shouldn't it have preceded it? Why does Christian philosophy and history borrow from so many other mythologies?

These are just a few of the unanswered questions that piled up over the years that I one day forced me to come to terms with them.

I'll tell you that this came at a time when I was most stable in my life. I was married and had children and wasn't engaged in anything that I needed to seek a reason to leave religion. In fact, I continued to attend church even when I did not believe it to be true.

I have been faithful to my wife because I love her and care about her and I cherish my vows. My behavior is the same now as it was when I attended church on a regular basis. That said I don't think that sex is evil or deviant just because it is practiced without following some religious rule. I don't believe that a person is moral because he or she is religious. Morality isn't about religion. It's about what you have inside. You either value morality or you don't. If you are moral just because you are Christian then you are not really moral. You are just obedient. Trust me on this one, there is a difference.

I respect your point of view but I find it insulting when Christians suggest that the reason I'm not a believer is that I want to sin. Nonsense. I don't believe because there is no rational basis to believe. There is simply too much evidence that religion is a man made institution.

As for Deism, I can accept that. I was a deist for a long time. Then I was an agnostic. I'm now simply an atheist. One who takes very seriously the admonition of Christ to be of service to my fellow man and to "do unto the least of these my brethren". I like many aspects of Christian philosophy, not because I fear hell but because I really do care about other people.

[Darat]

Regarding the idea that the Moderating Team should be involved in the various challenges that have been suggested in this thread.

The Moderating Team will not be involved in any such bet/challenge etc., and suspensions, banning etc. are not "stakes" that can be offered by any Member

[Ossai]

jesus_freak
I can tell you that the Bible says all animals were vegitarians before the flood, and It would take more than a pirate ship to survive that flood! Where in the bible does it state that all animals were vegetarians pre-flood?

Welcome back RandFan.

Ossai

[Zep]

jesus_freak
Where in the bible does it state that all animals were vegetarians pre-flood?

Welcome back RandFan.

OssaiI've already asked that question, but thanks for noticing too! ;)

[aggle-rithm]

I can tell you that the Bible says all animals were vegitarians before the flood, and It would take more than a pirate ship to survive that flood!

Even though many predators have digestive systems that cannot absorb sufficient nutrients from vegetable matter to stay alive.

So, what happened? Did they...EVOLVE?

[Ossai]

Zep
I've already asked that question, but thanks for noticing too! I had already written the question by the time I got to your response. :catfight:

[largeprimenumber]

That was actually the first thing I thought of too. :p "The Master.... the pick up master!" (Yahweh must be a pretty lonely guy...)



Which show is that? I should hear how they treat him. ;)
It's telling that the "Way of the Master" focuses on being ready with an answer--not necessarily a thoughtful or rational answer, but a confident one. First impressions are important. It isn't what you say so much as how you say it. That's the difference between street preachers who come off a crazy and street preachers like Ray Comfort and Todd Friel. All these techniques should work for chatting up girls, too.

And here is the link to that particular show: http://www.wayofthemasterradio.com/podcast/2006/12/30/december-30-2006-weekend-show/

[Zep]

Zep
I had already written the question by the time I got to your response. :catfight:We should do a double mime act. ;)

[Apathia]

Hi JF.

I grew up believing that god cared about the sex lives of humans. So much so that I remained celibate until I was 22 even though I had a number of opportunities to have sex. I graduated seminary and went on a 2 year mission. I served in leadership roles in my church and volunteered as scoutmaster and Sunday school teacher. I very much liked church. I had always had questions but I was able to keep my faith strong even though the questions always nagged at me.

Because of a number of things it became obvious to me that if there was a god he/she didn't have any interaction with humans on a day to day basis. I began to read more and more and my mind opened. It was devastating to me but one day I realized that religion was the work of humans. It was the only answer that could possibly reconcile so many questions. Like why are there are so many different religions? Why are the differences clearly a function of geography and culture? Why didn't God send prophets to all corners of the world at the same time, from the beginningg? Why does the morality of the Old Testament mirror the morality of it's times including slavery, genocide and infanticide? Why did the enlightened philosophy of the New Testament follow the enlightened advancements made by the early Greeks? Shouldn't it have preceded it? Why does Christian philosophy and history borrow from so many other mythologies?

These are just a few of the unanswered questions that piled up over the years that I one day forced me to come to terms with them.

I'll tell you that this came at a time when I was most stable in my life. I was married and had children and wasn't engaged in anything that I needed to seek a reason to leave religion. In fact, I continued to attend church even when I did not believe it to be true.

I have been faithful to my wife because I love her and care about her and I cherish my vows. My behavior is the same now as it was when I attended church on a regular basis. That said I don't think that sex is evil or deviant just because it is practiced without following some religious rule. I don't believe that a person is moral because he or she is religious. Morality isn't about religion. It's about what you have inside. You either value morality or you don't. If you are moral just because you are Christian then you are not really moral. You are just obedient. Trust me on this one, there is a difference.

I respect your point of view but I find it insulting when Christians suggest that the reason I'm not a believer is that I want to sin. Nonsense. I don't believe because there is no rational basis to believe. There is simply too much evidence that religion is a man made institution.

As for Deism, I can accept that. I was a deist for a long time. Then I was an agnostic. I'm now simply an atheist. One who takes very seriously the admonition of Christ to be of service to my fellow man and to "do unto the least of these my brethren". I like many aspects of Christian philosophy, not because I fear hell but because I really do care about other people.

Me too, Randfan. I didn't slip out of Christianity because I wanted to sin with impunity. In fact my lifestyle is pretty neo-puritan, to LDS standard even, though I was never one.

So, do I think I'm a righteous person then?
No, I'm far from blamless. But I learned that I didn't need a blood sacrifice to be able to have mercy on myself and forgive myself for my human weaknesses.
I don't love myself and others now because God does. I love them because they are. No need for the middleman.

[strathmeyer]

Please explain to me how a Christian can believe in evolution?

Please explain to me how a Christian can believe in the magical powers of Jesus?

[Dustin Kesselberg]

What's the news? Saizai?

[Dustin Kesselberg]

It doesn't even matter anyway. I'm sure "Jesus freak" would be willing to put "dirty liar" as his location and "dirty liar" over and over again on his sig. And we can still vote on how the discussion went if SaiZai posts a mp3 of it or something that we can view. We don't need moderators to do anything with it.

[saizai]

What's the news? Saizai?

Will try next Friday. Fowlsound has volunteered to help record, assuming it works.

[chris epic]

What I want to know, Jesus Freak, is if you truly believe you are being a witness in the Christian sense of the term. Because, what I know about Jesus isn't being reflected in any of your statements, judgments, or responses. I don't even know what you are doing here? I mean, I guess everyone has a right to be here, but one would think you are trying to be a witness of the Gospel and pull people to the Truth and what-not, but isn't it evident that nobody's buying it? Isn't it evident that your delivery is in vain? You're wasting your time. At least Paul was able to get something out of his hard work and proselytizing; a world-wide religion, but all you seem to be doing is reinforcing the more than just negative stigmatism Christianity or Christians have as a result of nonsensical, blind faith and self righteous behavior.

[VulcanWay]

Maybe it's just worth $50 - $75 to him to have a JREFer on that show. For witnessing, amusement, curiosity, or whatever. I've heard of people parting with such sums of money for stranger reasons. And, come on, isn't some part of you shouting inside how you'd give half a c-note to have someone from one of the woo-woo sites appear on a skeptic show?

Or maybe he just bet one of his buddies $150 who said that he couldn't get a JREFer on the radio show! :P

[jesus_freak]

Would you call the facility then if I paid you $75? If not, why, afraid they may be right? Yes I will...give me the number and when we should get it done.
I am still waiting for that number!

[money]

Re: post 180-

Great post, Randfan. Good to see you back.

Jesus Freak, are you going to address your obvious error in saying Christians cannot accept evolution?

[RandFan]

Re: post 180-

Great post, Randfan. Good to see you back.

Jesus Freak, are you going to address your obvious error in saying Christians cannot accept evolution?Thanks, I've yet to get an answer on any of my questions from any Christians BTW. Oh well.

[Fronzel]

Please explain to me how a Christian can believe in evolution?

I believed in a sort of intelligent design. Not the "God intelligently designed the world in 6 days" stuff, but more along the lines of "God guided the evolutionary paths taken" sort of nonsense and it later moved to "God cranked the engine and went inside to have some coffee while the engine warmed up and windows defrosted". Partially because of the time difference between gods and mortals, but mostly because he was explaining it to farmers that didn't have the skills to understand it. Like when dealing with kids, when they ask "why?" the easiest answer is "Because I said so."

I'd love to take the challenge, but I wouldn't be too logical. My arguing skills suck and I tend to get profane and flippant.

[Darat]

Please explain to me how a Christian can believe in evolution?

Perhaps an explanation from another Christian will help you understand?

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP961022.HTM

[Tricky]

Please explain to me how a true Christian can believe in evolution?
Fixed that for you.

[DuckTapeFileMan]

Please explain to me how a true Christian can believe in evolution?
Fixed that for you.

yes, the "only a true Scotsman" maneuver.

[Ossai]

We should do a double mime act. ;)
As long as I get to be lead and follow you. :duck:

[jesus_freak]

Jesus Freak, are you going to address your obvious error in saying Christians cannot accept evolution?
No..I beleive what I beleive...and part of what I beleive is that God created Man in His image...not a monkey

[jesus_freak]

Thanks, I've yet to get an answer on any of my questions from any Christians BTW. Oh well.
What was your question again?

[RandFan]

What was your question again?

Hi JF.

I grew up believing that god cared about the sex lives of humans. So much so that I remained celibate until I was 22 even though I had a number of opportunities to have sex. I graduated seminary and went on a 2 year mission. I served in leadership roles in my church and volunteered as scoutmaster and Sunday school teacher. I very much liked church. I had always had questions but I was able to keep my faith strong even though the questions always nagged at me.

Because of a number of things it became obvious to me that if there was a god he/she didn't have any interaction with humans on a day to day basis. I began to read more and more and my mind opened. It was devastating to me but one day I realized that religion was the work of humans. It was the only answer that could possibly reconcile so many questions. Like why are there are so many different religions? Why are the differences clearly a function of geography and culture? Why didn't God send prophets to all corners of the world at the same time, from the beginningg? [sic] Why does the morality of the Old Testament mirror the morality of it's [sic] times including slavery, genocide and infanticide? Why did the enlightened philosophy of the New Testament follow the enlightened advancements made by the early Greeks? Shouldn't it have preceded it? Why does Christian philosophy and history borrow from so many other mythologies?

These are just a few of the unanswered questions that piled up over the years that I one day forced me to come to terms with them.

I'll tell you that this came at a time when I was most stable in my life. I was married and had children and wasn't engaged in anything that I needed to seek a reason to leave religion. In fact, I continued to attend church even when I did not believe it to be true.

I have been faithful to my wife because I love her and care about her and I cherish my vows. My behavior is the same now as it was when I attended church on a regular basis. That said I don't think that sex is evil or deviant just because it is practiced without following some religious rule. I don't believe that a person is moral because he or she is religious. Morality isn't about religion. It's about what you have inside. You either value morality or you don't. If you are moral just because you are Christian then you are not really moral. You are just obedient. Trust me on this one, there is a difference.

I respect your point of view but I find it insulting when Christians suggest that the reason I'm not a believer is that I want to sin. Nonsense. I don't believe because there is no rational basis to believe. There is simply too much evidence that religion is a man made institution.

As for Deism, I can accept that. I was a deist for a long time. Then I was an agnostic. I'm now simply an atheist. One who takes very seriously the admonition of Christ to be of service to my fellow man and to "do unto the least of these my brethren". I like many aspects of Christian philosophy, not because I fear hell but because I really do care about other people. In short, why does religion appear to be man made?

[flume]

No..I beleive what I beleive...
Yeah, but at least admit that there are many people who do consider themselves Christians and devout followers of Christ who accept evolution. It's your narrow definition of who is a Christian and who is not that is getting in the way. There may be sects who differ from yours who would say you're NOT a Christian according to their definition.

and part of what I beleive is that God created Man in His image...not a monkeyEven if you believe that God created humans in a separate act of creation from monkeys and apes, you're stuck with the fact that He created humans to have the exact same genetic similarity to apes as they would have had through evolution. So if God created humans 'in His image', then he also created monkeys to be very similar to His image. Apes and monkeys are our brothers and cousins in our similiarity to God's image apparently.

[RandFan]

Even if you believe that God created humans in a separate act of creation from monkeys and apes, you're stuck with the fact that He created humans to have the exact same genetic similarity to apes as they would have had through evolution. So if God created humans 'in His image', then he also created monkeys to be very similar to His image. Apes and monkeys are our brothers and cousins in our similiarity to God's image apparently. You must also believe that God created apes and humans seperatly but both with many of the same genetic transcription errors (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/chance/chance.html). Funny guy that God.

[Monkey Napoleon]

JF is my new favorite fundy troll.

Check it out JF, I can make a better argument for your point than you can... and I'm militantly athiest, along with believing that evolution as a theory has been shown beyond a reasonable doubt to exist.

You see, god built evidence of evolution into plants and animals as a method of confounding human intelligence. The most basic and universal prerequisite for faith is belief, and by any standard of christian belief you must have faith to get into heaven. If proof of intelligent design existed, then the whole issue of faith would move to the realm of knowledge. If you know by means of irrefutable fact that god exists, then you can no longer claim to have faith in god. The bible is explicitly clear what happens to people without faith when they die.

Evolution = God's built in protection for humans from their own minds.

[Ossai]

jesus_freak
No..I beleive what I beleive...and part of what I beleive is that God created Man in His image...not a monkeyDid Adam have a navel?

[aggle-rithm]

jesus_freak
Did Adam have a navel?

Great, you just blew his mind. Now we have to wait for him to reboot.

[aggle-rithm]

No..I beleive what I beleive...and part of what I beleive is that God created Man in His image...not a monkey

How do you know the monkey wasn't an intermediate step in creating Man?

Were you there?

[flume]

jesus_freak
Did Adam have a navel?
JF gave a related answer to this in a response to a question I asked:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2377991#post2377991
(It should be post #49 in the 'Questions for Jesus_freak" topic.)

[Ossai]

flume
JF gave a related answer to this in a response to a question I asked:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...91#post2377991
(It should be post #49 in the 'Questions for Jesus_freak" topic.) Nope. jesus_freak stated
Could God's creation been made to look older than it really is? I think so, I think Adam was not born as an infant, but a grown man… I’m asking origin not age.

Did Adam have a navel?

Ossai

[saizai]

UPDATE ON THE JFC

I called in using Skype just now.

I got in three times but my voice quality was too bad (stupid POS webcam). I have recordings of the second two calls that I can post if requested; they're just me talking to the call screener and him saying my audio quality sucks. :p I'm not sure why for the last one - I had readjusted my mic gain (had been set way too high) and called the skype call testing service, recorded that, and it sounded fine to me. Ah well.

Lots of busy signals and redials, but not *too* hard to get through.

I have to leave now so I'm not going to try again today, but I'll try again next week.

Any suggestions for how to record the audio (2-way preferably) using my landline phone (better quality) or cellphone without buying new stuff? Alternately, any offers to buy me a better webcam or a good headset mic? :D

[jesus_freak]

That's too bad..Oh well maybe next week? What did the screener have to say? I would be interested in hearing that...What did you think did he/she sound nice to you are after you told them about why you are calling did they give you some attitude?

[jesus_freak]

Did Adam have a navel?
I never saw him but I would guess not...Eve too for that matter. Now that must be enough evidence to prove that there is a God?...what was the point of this question?

[Lonewulf]

An interesting debate between David Coppedge and ... some dude, I guess:

http://homepage.univie.ac.at/Michael.Berger/lit/coppedge.html

I looked into Coppedge... and I question his credentials. What does he know of science? Is he a scientist? From what I've seen, he's a network and systems engineer...

[CapelDodger]

I never saw him but I would guess not...Eve too for that matter. Now that must be enough evidence to prove that there is a God?...what was the point of this question?
I imagine the point was to elicit how much thought you'd given to Adam and Eve as real human beings rather than cartoonish characters in a simple fairy-story.

[CapelDodger]

[quote=aggle-rithm;2393091]How do you know the monkey wasn't an intermediate step in creating Man?/quote]
God clearly wasn't constrained in what it's image might be, so there's no reason to think it didn't try out a few prototypes before it struck on HomSap as the one to slap its logo on. Vestigial male nipples and all. Monkeys being as many and various as they are the god probably got bored and left the final choice of its image to the PR people, who are after all specialists in the field.

[Lonewulf]

JF: Are you saying that we were created in God's "image"? Does that mean that we look precisely like 'im?

An argument for Transhumanism (changing ourselves with technology), by some spiritual believers, translate that differently. That his "Image" was that of a creator; God created everything, and we were the only thing that could understand or modify his creation willfully ("In his Image"). In short, we were "co-creators", and thus we should be able to modify our surroundings and modify ourselves.

What do you think of this argument?

It makes more sense to me than the argument that a man is actually made in the physical image of God, as God is supposed to be everything. He's supposed to be superior to humanity, to be a very powerful force; he's nowhere in the realm of the human, in appearance or "style".

[SimonD]

UPDATE ON THE JFC

I called in using Skype just now.

I got in three times but my voice quality was too bad (stupid POS webcam). I have recordings of the second two calls that I can post if requested; they're just me talking to the call screener and him saying my audio quality sucks. :p I'm not sure why for the last one - I had readjusted my mic gain (had been set way too high) and called the skype call testing service, recorded that, and it sounded fine to me. Ah well.

Lots of busy signals and redials, but not *too* hard to get through.

I have to leave now so I'm not going to try again today, but I'll try again next week.

Any suggestions for how to record the audio (2-way preferably) using my landline phone (better quality) or cellphone without buying new stuff? Alternately, any offers to buy me a better webcam or a good headset mic? :D

Perhaps you could one of those tape records people use to record lectures and such. I have seen the mythbusters guys hook up one of these units with a mic stuck to the phone to record conversations. Seems to come through with good quality

[Fronzel]

Perhaps you could one of those tape records people use to record lectures and such. I have seen the mythbusters guys hook up one of these units with a mic stuck to the phone to record conversations. Seems to come through with good quality

One of these (http://www.radioshack.com/sm-recorder-telephone-pickup--pi-2103876.html) They work great.

[saizai]

The screener was totally polite and friendly; no attitude whatsoever. I did not mention my position so I don't know whether he would have reacted differently if I had.

I'm too cheap/broke to buy a recorder. I can try just sticking my webcam right up next to the earpiece though and hope it picks it up. We'll see next week.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

The screener was totally polite and friendly; no attitude whatsoever. I did not mention my position so I don't know whether he would have reacted differently if I had.

I'm too cheap/broke to buy a recorder. I can try just sticking my webcam right up next to the earpiece though and hope it picks it up. We'll see next week.

It's all nice and friendly until you mention that you aren't a Christian and then it's.."To hell with you infidel! May you rot in the pits of the place of the eternal damnation, I rebuke you in the name of Jesus!"

[Ossai]

jesus_freak
I never saw him but I would guess not...Eve too for that matter. Now that must be enough evidence to prove that there is a God?...what was the point of this question?
Think about it (all according to the bible)
Adam was created in god’s image.
Adam wandered around looking for a mate/companion but didn’t find one.
God created Eve from Adam.

Given the special creation of both Adam and Eve, neither would have a navel.

This is where you can branch off a couple of different ways.
If Adam had a navel because he was created in god’s image, then god also has a navel. Having a navel strongly implies that god was born.

If Adam didn’t have a navel, but all humans have one as a direct result of their birth, then Adam was not human. Eve, being cloned from Adam, would also not qualify as being human. Cain, Abel and Seth would be first generation humans.

Ossai

[aggle-rithm]

It's all nice and friendly until you mention that you aren't a Christian and then it's.."To hell with you infidel! May you rot in the pits of the place of the eternal damnation, I rebuke you in the name of Jesus!"

Kind of like an Amway salesman when you tell him you're not interested in becoming a distributor.

[Taffer]

Please explain to me how a Christian can believe in evolution?

Because evolution is a scientific fact.

[jesus_freak]

Think about it (all according to the bible)
Adam was created in god’s image.
Adam wandered around looking for a mate/companion but didn’t find one.
God created Eve from Adam.

Given the special creation of both Adam and Eve, neither would have a navel.

This is where you can branch off a couple of different ways.
If Adam had a navel because he was created in god’s image, then god also has a navel. Having a navel strongly implies that god was born.

If Adam didn’t have a navel, but all humans have one as a direct result of their birth, then Adam was not human. Eve, being cloned from Adam, would also not qualify as being human. Cain, Abel and Seth would be first generation humans.

Ossai
OK let me get this straight...a NAVEL is what qualifies us as human beings? is that what you are implying? Adam and Eve had no navel so they were not humans? Your post keep getting funnier and funnier, what again does this have to do with my challenge? take these questions to the "questions for jesus_freak" page please.

[jesus_freak]

Saizai, I will be leaving for Florida for a little vacation on Thursday, so if you get on and I don't respond or pay up right away do not fear! I will be back on next Thursday...You can call in any day of the week also, but I was just saying it might be easier on Friday.

[Ducky]

The screener was totally polite and friendly; no attitude whatsoever. I did not mention my position so I don't know whether he would have reacted differently if I had.

I'm too cheap/broke to buy a recorder. I can try just sticking my webcam right up next to the earpiece though and hope it picks it up. We'll see next week.

Whoops! Did I miss a skype?

Skype me, I'll conference and record it. Just email me or skype me when you'd like to do this.

PM me if you need my email.

[aggle-rithm]

OK let me get this straight...a NAVEL is what qualifies us as human beings? is that what you are implying? Adam and Eve had no navel so they were not humans? Your post keep getting funnier and funnier, what again does this have to do with my challenge? take these questions to the "questions for jesus_freak" page please.

No, a navel qualifies us as placental mammals. Since all human beings are placental mammals, this excludes Adam and Eve from humanity.

[saizai]

Whoops! Did I miss a skype?

Skype me, I'll conference and record it. Just email me or skype me when you'd like to do this.

PM me if you need my email.

Yeah but conferencing you in won't help my audio quality. So I'll just have to do the "stick the mic next to me telephone earpiece" method.

I wonder what s/w to use for recording that; there should be something lying around that'll do it.

[Ducky]

Yeah but conferencing you in won't help my audio quality. So I'll just have to do the "stick the mic next to me telephone earpiece" method.

I wonder what s/w to use for recording that; there should be something lying around that'll do it.

On a mac, Audio Hijack Pro. Not sure about Windows, but I bet you could do a search on lifehacker.com for "record skype" and find an app.

Offer stands though. :)

[VulcanWay]

Is tonight the night, Saizai?

[saizai]

Will try again in 3 hours. :)

Hopefully Fowlsound will be around to record; otherwise I'll have to improvise something or just trust to the podcast.

[Irony]

No..I beleive what I beleive...and part of what I beleive is that God created Man in His image...not a monkey

Are you saying that God is not a monkey, or that God didn't create man in monkey's image? If it's the later then I would have to dispute you on that. Assuming that God did create man, then our undeniable similarity to our fellow simians would imply that God did indeed design us via a slight modification to the monkey mold.

[saizai]

Here we go. *starts dialing*

[saizai]

... aaaaand done and recorded. :)

Will wait until the full podcast is available online before posting my recording.

Anyone have a good place for me to put it so that JREF members can download the audio? The format is currently WMA (recorded w/ the barebones windows sound recorder).

[skeptifem]

could someone transcript it for me when its done? I have dial up at the moment.

[saizai]

Feh, the recording quality of their side of the conversation kinda sucks... way too quiet compared to my voice. Ah well.

Maybe one of you more equipped people can edit and amplify it appropriately?

[Tanstaafl]

I'll crank up the volume and listen really, really carefully if needed.

[saizai]

Seriously it's waaaay too quiet. Played at full volume on my pc, my voice sounds normal volume, but his is only barely audible as being there at all. It'll need editing to be audible, and I don't have the software installed to do that.

I'm sure the podcast version should be fine, but then you won't get my off-air conversation with the screener and the host, or my various commentary. ;)

[Tanstaafl]

Okay, I'll patiently wait until you get things sorted out. Not that I can listen while I'm at work anyway.

I presume the poll will be open for a while.

[saizai]

I set no time limit on the poll.


Formal request to the audience: would one of you please take my .wma audio recording, edit it so that one can hear the screener and the host (if possible), and upload it somewhere & in a format that's easily accessible for the forum? Just ping me and I'll send it by email or Skype.

Thanks in advance. :)

[saizai]

Here is my original recording. Someone who has better editing software than I (read: any), please edit this to make the screener and the host audible and repost it (maybe in some more compact and common format like mp3). Thanks!

http://www.prayermatch.org/files/Sai%20on%20WOTM%209%20March%2007.wma
(WMA 22.8mb 32min).

[Dustin Kesselberg]

I'm listening to it now and I can't make out anything he's saying....I'm going to try to work on it with some sound editor to see if I can make it more audible.

[autumn1971]

As drunk as I am right now, You seem to have defeated them in a controlled debate. It was even thier own forum. Good show.

[saizai]

Please see the new thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=76665) to discuss the results (there's also a link to the official podcast version).