Questions for Roadtoad

[Diamond]

Roadtoad,

I admired your intellectual honesty in "Christian v Christian". I used to be a fundamentalist Christian myself (I'm now an agnostic), so I recognise a lot of the same issue I thought at the time.

Can I ask a question (or three) of you?

Now that you've met a lot of people who are openly skeptical of the claims of theistic religion (including yours), what do you think of them? For example, I was taught that non-believers were groping in the dark, wilfully blinded by Satan, having a God-shaped gap in their lives etc. When I met them, I found that although they may be wrong (from my viewpoint) they didn't fit any of those categories at all.

Also, do you think that non-theists are immoral or evil people or are they just like everyone else (as opposed to the way they are characterised in sermons)?

Genuine questions. No troll.

[jimlintott]

Judge people by what they do, not by what they say they believe.

(No I'm not roadtoad. No, I've never been a christain or a theist of any type, ever.)

[Diamond]

Originally posted by jimlintott
Judge people by what they do, not by what they say they believe.

(No I'm not roadtoad. No, I've never been a christain or a theist of any type, ever.)

...or a typist;)

No, I'd really like to know what Roadtoad thinks...

[Yahweh]

I think these are good questions and they could be asked to anyone.

Now that you've met a lot of people who are openly skeptical of the claims of theistic religion (including yours), what do you think of them? For example, I was taught that non-believers were groping in the dark, wilfully blinded by Satan, having a God-shaped gap in their lives etc. When I met them, I found that although they may be wrong (from my viewpoint) they didn't fit any of those categories at all.
All beliefs are philosophically valid (although a majority may not be scientifically valid). I dont care what religious group a person is. As long as they dont negatively criticize my atheist beliefs, I could care less about what anyone else believes.

Also, do you think that non-theists are immoral or evil people or are they just like everyone else (as opposed to the way they are characterised in sermons)?
When is morality judged by faith and not by actions?

[Diamond]

Originally posted by Yahweh
All beliefs are philosophically valid (although a majority may not be scientifically valid). I dont care what religious group a person is. As long as they dont negatively criticize my atheist beliefs, I could care less about what anyone else believes.

I didn't realise that lack of belief in something constituted a belief.

When is morality judged by faith and not by actions?

Unfortunately iin fundamentalist religion, this happens all the time.

[Yahweh]

I didn't realise that lack of belief in something constituted a belief.
Not necessarily lack of belief, but another kind of belief. Who says the prerequisite for a belief system requires some kind of higher beings outside of atheism and/or science.

Edit to add: Thats worded very unusually... oh well...

[Diamond]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Not necessarily lack of belief, but another kind of belief. Who says the prerequisite for a belief system requires some kind of higher beings outside of atheism and/or science.

Edit to add: Thats worded very unusually... oh well...

I don't understand how a lack of belief (atheism) implies a belief system. Atheism means no belief in theism - nothing more.

For example, I do not believe in the veracity of "creation science". However, on its own, that statement does not imply a belief in evolution, merely an absence of belief in a particular set of propositions.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Diamond


I don't understand how a lack of belief (atheism) implies a belief system. Atheism means no belief in theism - nothing more.

For example, I do not believe in the veracity of "creation science". However, on its own, that statement does not imply a belief in evolution, merely an absence of belief in a particular set of propositions.
In all reality, does it really matter how we define "atheistic beliefs/nonbeliefs"? I would think not.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Diamond
Roadtoad,

I admired your intellectual honesty in "Christian v Christian". I used to be a fundamentalist Christian myself (I'm now an agnostic), so I recognise a lot of the same issue I thought at the time.

Can I ask a question (or three) of you?

Now that you've met a lot of people who are openly skeptical of the claims of theistic religion (including yours), what do you think of them? For example, I was taught that non-believers were groping in the dark, wilfully blinded by Satan, having a God-shaped gap in their lives etc. When I met them, I found that although they may be wrong (from my viewpoint) they didn't fit any of those categories at all.

Also, do you think that non-theists are immoral or evil people or are they just like everyone else (as opposed to the way they are characterised in sermons)?

Genuine questions. No troll.

Actually, I'm rather flattered that you asked, Diamond. I never thought my views were that critical.

When I was an agnostic, I heard those claims applied to me an awful lot, and realized only a few years ago that it was basically a manipulation. To say I was resentful of being played is something of an understatement.

Atheists, rather than being cruel, or blinded, or even lacking anything, are no different from anyone else. Yes, you have dishonest, cruel, vicious, and even stupid atheists. But, at the same time, you have straightforward, kind, compassionate, and brilliant atheists. The reality remains that an honest atheist is a far more tolerable person that most evangelicals; they aren't out to impress a deity they do not recognize.

The reason for this, as far as I can tell, (and maybe someone can correct me on this), is that an atheist views his/her life as being a temporary thing, a one-time gift, so you get the most out of what you have right now, because you won't have an eternity in a non-existent heaven.

Far from being evil, most of the atheists I've encountered here are among the kindest, and most compassionate individuals I've met. Since only our actions, our deeds, are the only thing that remains, in their view, give your best and be remembered well. Rather than having a "damn 'em all" attitude, there's far more concern for what's being left in an atheist's wake, while, gallingly, most Christians I know take the "screw it" view, thinking that an eternity with Christ somehow negates such selfishness.

That's a crock, of course. Selfishness is evil, no matter who's doing it. I keep thinking folks like Fundamentalists would get it, but they don't. I left the fundies a long time ago when they told me it was okay for us to go with these whack-job militias.

In all honesty, no matter how rude they are here, I'd rather spend an hour with Hazelip or ThaiboxerKen than ten minutes with most fundamentalists. (Of course, the exceptions are so few, maybe I could have said "any".)

Perhaps the few people who really got to me on this were guys like Craig Kidwell, who works in this area. He's a baker, loves the Blues, is crazy about his kids, thinks nothing of buying a hard working buddy a beer, and absolutely denies there's any God out there ruling his life. When I met him, I was hard into my "Fundie Phase," and could not understand why he "hated" Jesus.

Craig pointed out to me that he didn't hate Jesus: he just never accepted the idea that Jesus was either a God, or even a good teacher. His question to me was what could I show him in my life that would convince him otherwise.

Funny thing: when I looked in the mirror the next morning, all I saw was me. Since that was all Craig could see, (and it was funny that Craig was more "Christian" than I was), what could I show him? Not much.

When you pull back from fundamentalism and its related subgroups, and take a long hard look at what it's bred, is there any wonder at all why people run from this form of "zeal?"

Further, I see people like Girl 6, LukeT, Kittynh, Hal, (yes, I know he's a theist), James Randi himself, and so many others, who are willing to extend a hand of kindness to others far more willingly than many Christians I know. I've encountered that kindness firsthand, and frankly, when I can expect an act of goodness and mercy from a total stranger from across the nation, given with a heart of love, while I can't even get a can of Spaghetti Os from my neighbor, you tell me?

It's long overdue for Christians, like myself, to quit allowing others to slander those who choose to take a different road, and to quit allowing others to ramrod Christ down others throats. It has not worked in 2,000 years. It ain't gonna work now. And, if anyone looks foolish from this, it ain't guys like Yahweh or Rikzilla.

Just my not-particularly-humble opinion.

[Yahweh]

And, if anyone looks foolish from this, it ain't guys like Yahweh or Rikzilla.
Ah shucks, Roadtoad. Super Cool! :D :)

[Roadtoad]

Something I ran across in today's Sacramento Bee: Atheist Michael Newdow is working on fighting the inequities in parental rights, based solely on the grounds of the Constitution.

I disagreed with his "Under God" fight: frankly, the term has all the impact of a toasted marshmallow that's been sitting out all night. But this is a fight that cuts down to the bone in this house. (My first wife and I were divorced in 1984, and I had next to zilch parental rights.)

You simply don't see Christians getting into this fight. Yet, this is a critical fight for any man who's got kids, whether he's divorced or not, if for no other reason, than because your children could wind up in that position. It has tremendous impact on grandparents' rights, not to mention the care of children over the 18 years until they become legal adults.

You cannot tell me that at the core of this there isn't a great deal of compassion at work.