Could a Christian kill themselves but still get into Heaven if they did it this way?

[Beerina]

A Christian who commits suicide goes to Hell because they died without being in a state of Grace. I.e. they committed a horrible sin, suicide, or just murdering someone, namely themselves, whatever, without having asked God for forgiveness, i.e. they had no possible chance to because they killed themselves.

But what if they asked someone to kill them, then in the intervening moments, they asked for forgiveness.

But if they asked the person to kill them even if they begged not to. And refused to lift a finger to try to stop it because of the "turning the other cheek" rule.

"Please shoot me, even if I ask you not to, even if I beg you."

Let's further assume they legitimately ask for God's forgiveness, and so honestly that even God knows they mean it, even if God, and they, both knew ahead of time that this would happen, i.e. that they'd deliberately mean it.

I suppose, alternatively, someone could shoot themselves, not die, and make a partial recovery, asking forgiveness, then dieing anyway from the severity of the wound. That must happen from time to time.

But this plan, what about it:

1. Guy plans to get other guy to kill him.

2. Guy initiates plan saying, "Please shoot me. Let me ask God for forgiveness first, then do it even though I ask you not to. I plan to take advantage of the "turn the other cheek" rule and not try to physically stop you nor run away.

3. Guy gives shooter a gun.

4. Guy begs God for forgiveness for killing himself, and honestly means it.

5. God, played like a song, can do nothing but watch as the guy is shot and dies, and is forced to let him into Heaven.

The loophole is that, in step 4, the guy has to honestly be sorry he's not just killing himself, but has to be honestly sorry he initiated the entire affair.

[Beerina]

To make it a little easier, replace the shooter with an inescapable trap -- the guy puts himself into a situation, like in the bottom of a deep pit in a garage with the door closed and a motor running, that he cannot possibly escape.

Then he falls to his knees and cries and begs God for forgiveness. The only issue is that this was part of the plan. Yet he pulls it off, feeling sorry for initiating the entire plan and "putting God to the test" to force God's hand. He's sorry for all of it!

Even though that, too, was part of the plan! Does he get in?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Presumably God knows the man's intentions when he repents. If his repentance is just a show, he goes to Hell. If it is true--even if planned earlier to be a farce--he gets to Heaven.

Not all Christians believe that whole suicide=automatic Hell thing, anyway.

[Malachi151]

There is nothing in the Bible that is against suicide. This whole "state of grace" nonsense is late Catholic dogma, and has no basis in scriptures. Suicide is depicted positively or neutrally in the Bible, and of course martyrdom (a form of suicide) is encouraged in several places, not least of which being the Jesus story itself.

[Davidjayjordan]

Suicide is hardly the worst of sins, just something that takes away any hope for further life. The much much worse sin is having so little love and concern that you cause hopelessness in others, or aren;t there for someone that needs help.

Sure somebody that commits suicide can go to heaven, if that is the terminology you like.

Salvation doesn;t depend on their sins but whether they have Jesus or NOT.

Salvation depends on the Saviour, not self righteous perfection

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Jesusneverlostasheep.html

.

[Malachi151]

The only reason for the Catholic rules against suicide are because in the early days of Christianity many Christians were committing suicide so that they could be with Jesus. They also viewed Jesus' death as a suicide and Jesus as a role model for killing one's self to go to heaven. Thus, with the high suicide rate among Christians, the Church condemned it.

Some links on this:

http://www.a1b2c3.com/suilodge/relvu01.htm

http://www.ashbusstop.org/Biblesuicide.html

[Jekyll]

Presumably God knows the man's intentions when he repents. If his repentance is just a show, he goes to Hell. If it is true--even if planned earlier to be a farce--he gets to Heaven.

Not all Christians believe that whole suicide=automatic Hell thing, anyway.

Presumably repentance isn't enough, "Sorry god, but I felt I had no choice." might well be the last thought going through a suicide's mind anyway.

[fuelair]

Suicide is hardly the worst of sins, just something that takes away any hope for further life. The much much worse sin is having so little love and concern that you cause hopelessness in others, or aren;t there for someone that needs help.

Sure somebody that commits suicide can go to heaven, if that is the terminology you like.

Salvation doesn;t depend on their sins but whether they have Jesus or NOT.

Salvation depends on the Saviour, not self righteous perfection

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Jesusneverlostasheep.html

.

An official Jumpin'Jesus pocket rocket will save your butt and your soul!! Buy a dozen now and save your friends' butts too!!
And , you know, I think you may be right about Jguy never losing a sheep - given the way he was attached to them !!:D

[SimonD]

In the book "Job: A Comedy of Justice" by Robert A. Heinlein, a nun, who died during the 'flu epidemic of 1917-8, goes to hell, as she was not given the last rights by a preist!

[fuelair]

In the book "Job: A Comedy of Justice" by Robert A. Heinlein, a nun, who died during the 'flu epidemic of 1917-8, goes to hell, as she was not given the last rights by a preist!
But look how she turned out!!!

[Abdul Alhazred]

... But what if they asked someone to kill them, then in the intervening moments, they asked for forgiveness. ...

This would be part of the "Monanist heresy" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montanism#Emphasis_on_Martyrdom), a defunct early Christian sect.

[fuelair]

Are they related to the Onanist heresy people - I think one or four of them have been posting recently here !!

[SimonD]

But look how she turned out!!!

:D :D

[Mr Clingford]

What's the point to this thread?

As others have stated suicide is hardly an automatic ticket to a 'hot place'.

[SimonD]

What's the point to this thread?

As others have stated suicide is hardly an automatic ticket to a 'hot place'.

C'mon Clingford. Whats the point to any thread? If you don't agree with it say so and why. Get the ball rolling :)

[Mr Clingford]

C'mon Clingford. Whats the point to any thread? If you don't agree with it say so and why. Get the ball rolling :)Alright, but some threads are more equal than others!
The OP strikes me as a thought experiment about an alternative reality and therefore not of much merit. To be fair I think the OP could have been better worded (since a lot of Christians don't think that suicide = damnation (whatever that may be or not)). Personally I think that if God knows what are the innermost workings of a person then he will know a person's desires and motives for their actions and can't be fooled. I suppose I don't recognise the God of the OP to be very Godlike - 'Oh, damn, another sinner gets one over me again, stupid me!'.

[KingMerv00]

Alright, but some threads are more equal than others!
The OP strikes me as a thought experiment about an alternative reality and therefore not of much merit. To be fair I think the OP could have been better worded (since a lot of Christians don't think that suicide = damnation (whatever that may be or not)). Personally I think that if God knows what are the innermost workings of a person then he will know a person's desires and motives for their actions and can't be fooled. I suppose I don't recognise the God of the OP to be very Godlike - 'Oh, damn, another sinner gets one over me again, stupid me!'.

Well how do you know you are right? Maybe Catholic dogma is right every once in a while. What makes your guess any better than theirs?

[Beerina]

Suicide is hardly the worst of sins, just something that takes away any hope for further life. The much much worse sin is having so little love and concern that you cause hopelessness in others, or aren;t there for someone that needs help.

Sure somebody that commits suicide can go to heaven, if that is the terminology you like.

Salvation doesn;t depend on their sins but whether they have Jesus or NOT.

Salvation depends on the Saviour, not self righteous perfection

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Jesusneverlostasheep.html

.

What does it mean to "have Jesus"? Can I "have Jesus" while I'm anally raping a four year old? Is having a teary, epiphanal moment yesterday while on my knees and thinking of Jesus on black velvet a get-out-of-jail-free card? How bad can I be before it is taken away?

[Mr Clingford]

Well how do you know you are right? Maybe Catholic dogma is right every once in a while. What makes your guess any better than theirs?Of course I, like every other human, do not know that I am right, but people have to go with what their reason/sense of fairness tells them.
I'm not sure that suicide=damnation is actually dogma (I have heard it too, but sceptics are meant to check facts, right?). Even if one accepts the premise that it does then I don't think that you would get Catholics saying that God can be fooled.

[SimonD]

Of course I, like every other human, do not know that I am right, but people have to go with what their reason/sense of fairness tells them.
I'm not sure that suicide=damnation is actually dogma (I have heard it too, but sceptics are meant to check facts, right?). Even if one accepts the premise that it does then I don't think that you would get Catholics saying that God can be fooled.

You cannot commit suicide if you are a Catholic. That's 12 years of Catholic school talking. My mother had cancer and was a devout Catholic. I am not joking when I say she went to church 3-4 times a week. She also said the Rosary and the Angelus at 12 and 6 everyday. Towards the end of her illness, she was determined not to be euthanized by the doctors as she was concerned that this would be committing suicide.

And before anyone says that euthanasia is not leagal in Australia, believe me it does happen. I know of two other cases of friends of mine that were given an overdose by doctors to help them on their way.

[KingMerv00]

Of course I, like every other human, do not know that I am right, but people have to go with what their reason/sense of fairness tells them.

Picking a religion based on what feels "right probably" won't yield the best objective results.

At a bare minimum, 66% of the people on earth have chosen the wrong religion.

[Mr Clingford]

Picking a religion based on what feels "right probably" won't yield the best objective results.

At a bare minimum, 66% of the people on earth have chosen the wrong religion.Er, what about the 'reason' part of the quote!

How do you know it is the wrong religion, it might be right for them? Has God told you, then, what he does with people of the 'wrong' faith, or no faith, or are you making assumptions?

[logical muse]

At a bare minimum, 66% of the people on earth have chosen the wrong religion.

The other 34% are busy playing WoW.




eta: World of Warcraft

[Mr Clingford]

You cannot commit suicide if you are a Catholic. That's 12 years of Catholic school talking. My mother had cancer and was a devout Catholic. I am not joking when I say she went to church 3-4 times a week. She also said the Rosary and the Angelus at 12 and 6 everyday. Towards the end of her illness, she was determined not to be euthanized by the doctors as she was concerned that this would be committing suicide.

And before anyone says that euthanasia is not leagal in Australia, believe me it does happen. I know of two other cases of friends of mine that were given an overdose by doctors to help them on their way.I've just been looking in Wiki (groan) which states
"The 1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church indicates that suicide may not always be fully conscious – and thus not one-hundred-percent morally culpable: "Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide."
Perhaps its views have moved a little.

[Mr Clingford]

You cannot commit suicide if you are a Catholic. That's 12 years of Catholic school talking. My mother had cancer and was a devout Catholic. I am not joking when I say she went to church 3-4 times a week. She also said the Rosary and the Angelus at 12 and 6 everyday. Towards the end of her illness, she was determined not to be euthanized by the doctors as she was concerned that this would be committing suicide.

And before anyone says that euthanasia is not leagal in Australia, believe me it does happen. I know of two other cases of friends of mine that were given an overdose by doctors to help them on their way.I've just been looking in Wiki (groan) which states
"The 1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church indicates that suicide may not always be fully conscious – and thus not one-hundred-percent morally culpable: "Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide."
Perhaps its views have moved a little.

[Mr Clingford]

Double Post

[DangerousBeliefs]

I believe that person would be transferred to Heck and made to do God's taxes.

All hail Phil, ruler of Heck!

[SimonD]

I've just been looking in Wiki (groan) which states
"The 1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church indicates that suicide may not always be fully conscious – and thus not one-hundred-percent morally culpable: "Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide."
Perhaps its views have moved a little.

My mum died in 1990. I am glad to see the church having a more open mind on the situation.

[KingMerv00]

Is the Catholic church's policy right though? How do they know what God thinks?

[Mr Clingford]

Well how do you know you are right? Maybe Catholic dogma is right every once in a while. What makes your guess any better than theirs?

Is the Catholic church's policy right though? How do they know what God thinks?What do you think?!

[aggle-rithm]

To make it a little easier, replace the shooter with an inescapable trap -- the guy puts himself into a situation, like in the bottom of a deep pit in a garage with the door closed and a motor running, that he cannot possibly escape.

Then he falls to his knees and cries and begs God for forgiveness. The only issue is that this was part of the plan. Yet he pulls it off, feeling sorry for initiating the entire plan and "putting God to the test" to force God's hand. He's sorry for all of it!

Even though that, too, was part of the plan! Does he get in?

God HATES it when that happens.

[aggle-rithm]

Is the Catholic church's policy right though? How do they know what God thinks?

They don't really believe in God. Shhhhhh.

[aggle-rithm]

I believe that person would be transferred to Heck and made to do God's taxes.

All hail Phil, ruler of Heck!

I DARN you! I darn you all to HECK!

[KingMerv00]

What do you think?!

By "think" you are really asking me what I "feel". Feeling your way through life won't help you reach an objective answer on important questions like the afterlife.

The Catholic church is supposed to be representing Almighty God on earth. I would like their opinions to be based on something a little meatier than how they feel that day.

[Mr Clingford]

By "think" you are really asking me what I "feel". Feeling your way through life won't help you reach an objective answer on important questions like the afterlife.

The Catholic church is supposed to be representing Almighty God on earth. I would like their opinions to be based on something a little meatier than how they feel that day.Gosh, what would I do without you telling me what I really mean?

[CaptainManacles]

A Christian who commits suicide goes to Hell because they died without being in a state of Grace. I.e. they committed a horrible sin, suicide, or just murdering someone, namely themselves, whatever, without having asked God for forgiveness, i.e. they had no possible chance to because they killed themselves.

But what if they asked someone to kill them, then in the intervening moments, they asked for forgiveness.

But if they asked the person to kill them even if they begged not to. And refused to lift a finger to try to stop it because of the "turning the other cheek" rule.

"Please shoot me, even if I ask you not to, even if I beg you."

Let's further assume they legitimately ask for God's forgiveness, and so honestly that even God knows they mean it, even if God, and they, both knew ahead of time that this would happen, i.e. that they'd deliberately mean it.

I suppose, alternatively, someone could shoot themselves, not die, and make a partial recovery, asking forgiveness, then dieing anyway from the severity of the wound. That must happen from time to time.

But this plan, what about it:

1. Guy plans to get other guy to kill him.

2. Guy initiates plan saying, "Please shoot me. Let me ask God for forgiveness first, then do it even though I ask you not to. I plan to take advantage of the "turn the other cheek" rule and not try to physically stop you nor run away.

3. Guy gives shooter a gun.

4. Guy begs God for forgiveness for killing himself, and honestly means it.

5. God, played like a song, can do nothing but watch as the guy is shot and dies, and is forced to let him into Heaven.

The loophole is that, in step 4, the guy has to honestly be sorry he's not just killing himself, but has to be honestly sorry he initiated the entire affair.

You would make a good Asimov robot.

[KingMerv00]

Gosh, what would I do without you telling me what I really mean?

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. Please explain what I am not getting.

My point is that the Catholic church changes its policies based on the way societal mores change, not on the word of God.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Dude, asking someone to kill you is suicide. Furthermore, you're obviously not remorseful at all if you hire someone to kill you and then plan to pretend to apologize for it.

Unless you change your mind about suicide when you're killed which many people do the instant they've shot themselves, throw themselves off the bridge or swallow poison.

Anyhow, it's still a sin so unless you confess and atone before you die, I don't think so.

[Mr Clingford]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. Please explain what I am not getting.

My point is that the Catholic church changes its policies based on the way societal mores change, not on the word of God.There might well be misunderstanding going on on more than one point.

You say to me that maybe I am wrong and suggest that the Roman Catholic Church might be right on this matter and then question whether its policy is right in another post. I then asked what actually was your POV (right or wrong) and you say I actually meant "feel" and "Feeling your way through life won't help you reach an objective answer on important questions like the afterlife".

I felt somewhat patronised.

[Roboramma]

How about this - deliberately put your self in a situation where you'll suffer for days or weeks before slowly dying.

Durring that long period of suffering you're certain to regret doing it, and thus be able to really and honestly repent.

This could take the form of getting lost in the wilderness, climbing down a deep well, then destroying the rope that you climbed down, or something like that. Sure, after a few days you might be calling out for help and looking for any way out of your situation, but that's exactly what you need - to really regret what you've done.

[Mr Clingford]

Ok, but would it be suicide as now you would be acting to try and live so it wouldn't be your last act?

[Beerina]

Er, what about the 'reason' part of the quote!

How do you know it is the wrong religion, it might be right for them? Has God told you, then, what he does with people of the 'wrong' faith, or no faith, or are you making assumptions?

As Carl Sagan said, "If two faiths are logically inconsistent, then one of them must be wrong."

He also continued, "...but if one, why not both?"

A god who doesn't care if you're Christian or Jewish or Muslim or whatever, might exist, but that isn't the god of any of those religions.

[Mr Clingford]

As Carl Sagan said, "If two faiths are logically inconsistent, then one of them must be wrong."

He also continued, "...but if one, why not both?"

A god who doesn't care if you're Christian or Jewish or Muslim or whatever, might exist, but that isn't the god of any of those religions.Well, I don't think that the god of any of those religions exists, but I think there is a God that they point to and as a Christian I think that the Christian approach is the least innacurate, but I may be wrong. And I think this 'Christian God' would not have a problem with those of other faiths just because they have another faith.

[Beerina]

Ok, but would it be suicide as now you would be acting to try and live so it wouldn't be your last act?

Yes, you've killed yourself.

However, I wonder if knowing fatty foods are bad for you, and will statistically shorten your life, counts as suicide when you die at 55 instead of 75 because of it?

But that's merely statistically risky behavior, not certain death.

But is certain death ever truly certain death? Someone could come along purely by chance and save you. It may only be 1/100 chance, or 1/1000, but that kind of stuff does happen.

I'm gonna eat in such a way as to take a 98% chance of shortening my life considerably (at least 10 years), thus "killing" myself, as opposed to I'm gonna take a 99.999% chance of shortening my life by 30 years by putting myself in a deep hole in the garage and starting the car engine and jumping in.

What is the "likelihood of death" vs. chronal proximity percentage calculation God uses to differentiate risky behavior from exceedingly risky behavior that may be labeled "suicide"?

[aggle-rithm]

This actually came up in an episode of "Dr. G". A woman attempted suicide, but recovered. She felt remorse for making the attempt while recovering, but died before being released from the hospital.

The family wanted Dr. G to tell them that she did NOT die as a result of the suicide attempt -- being devout Catholics, they didn't want to worry that she had gone to hell. She told them, of course, that she could only report to them what the evidence showed.

As it turned out, the woman had suffered an undetected heart attack FIRST, then attempted suicide, then died as a result of her weakened heart. Since the heart attack wasn't detected, even after she had been admitted to the hospital for the suicide attempt, it was unlikely she would have survived it anyway.

So, this is clearly a case where God didn't want her to go to hell, so he gave her a heart attack to keep her from trying to off herself. What a stand-up guy!

[Mr Clingford]

So, this is clearly a case where God didn't want her to go to hell, so he gave her a heart attack to keep her from trying to off herself. What a stand-up guy!Damn, so God is a Roman Catholic after all, and I thought he was an English Anglican.

[CplFerro]

Dear Beerina,

I think God is too much of a ********** to let anyone off the hook for any of this stuff. Part of "really sorry" is "willing to do it differently if given a second chance." So, suppose he really did repent, but then God magically stayed the hand of the hit-man. Then the would-be suicide's repentence is tested. In other words, it doesn't matter what happens; God wins, and the suicidal man cannot get out of experiencing the awful vagaries of life and/or Hell.

Cpl Ferro

[Glen.Nogami]

And I think this 'Christian God' would not have a problem with those of other faiths just because they have another faith.

Don't start sentences with conjunctions

Martin Luther disagrees, though, and quite a few people agree with him.

[Jeremy]

Don't start sentences with conjunctions

Martin Luther disagrees, though, and quite a few people agree with him.

But said rule may be ignored for stylistic purposes.

Not to mention the God of the Bible. I seem to recall quiet a bit about him being the "only way" in there.

[fuelair]

You cannot commit suicide if you are a Catholic. That's 12 years of Catholic school talking. My mother had cancer and was a devout Catholic. I am not joking when I say she went to church 3-4 times a week. She also said the Rosary and the Angelus at 12 and 6 everyday. Towards the end of her illness, she was determined not to be euthanized by the doctors as she was concerned that this would be committing suicide.

And before anyone says that euthanasia is not leagal in Australia, believe me it does happen. I know of two other cases of friends of mine that were given an overdose by doctors to help them on their way.

Good for their doctors!!!:) :) :) Sorry about your friends though!

[Glen.Nogami]

But said rule may be ignored for stylistic purposes.

Thwarted! Khaaan! :D

[Mr Clingford]

And I think this 'Christian God' would not have a problem with those of other faiths just because they have another faith.

Martin Luther disagrees, though, and quite a few people agree with him.True, but I hold a position of near, maybe total, universalism, a not uncommon view.

Not to mention the God of the Bible. I seem to recall quiet a bit about him being the "only way" in there.This is debateable. The verse 'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no-one comes to the Father but by me' is open to more than one interpretation. It does not say 'but by professing faith in me', rather, it may be read in a Xtian framework as Jesus's life and death are the means by which someone may come to the Father, whether they profess faith or not.

[SimonD]

Good for their doctors!!!:) :) :) Sorry about your friends though!

Funny how it is kind to put down a dog that is suffering, but a human, who can vocalize their suffering? - forget about it

[Beerina]

Damn, so God is a Roman Catholic after all, and I thought he was an English Anglican.

Yes, because God kept throwing all Christians into Hell until an English king created a church so he could get a divorce, thus finally, finally getting Christianity right! :cool:

[Beerina]

And before anyone says that euthanasia is not leagal in Australia, believe me it does happen. I know of two other cases of friends of mine that were given an overdose by doctors to help them on their way.

I believe in the US it's legal to request larger and larger doses of morphine to control the pain, until you get so much it kills you.

My grandmother's husband went that way, in the hospital in his late '70's with bone cancer. She had just left, they gave him a morphine injection, his eyes rolled back in his head and he died. He had told me several weeks earlier that he "didn't think he was gonna make it this time." :(

He had fought in the Pacific, and had a picture a guy had painted of some time they spent on one of the islands, and also had some Japanese family photos from a deceased Japanese soldier.

[SimonD]

I believe in the US it's legal to request larger and larger doses of morphine to control the pain, until you get so much it kills you.

My grandmother's husband went that way, in the hospital in his late '70's with bone cancer. She had just left, they gave him a morphine injection, his eyes rolled back in his head and he died. He had told me several weeks earlier that he "didn't think he was gonna make it this time." :(

He had fought in the Pacific, and had a picture a guy had painted of some time they spent on one of the islands, and also had some Japanese family photos from a deceased Japanese soldier.

It was basicaly the same for my friends, larger and larger doses. I hope I get to pass away as quickly.

While it is incredibly distressing to watch, being in the presence of someone dying, is an amazing experience. It seems to clarify life. Well it did for me. It is such a fleeting thing. As the man said, "Better get busy living , or get busy dying"

I aways found the stories of soliders meeting their enemies to be fascinating. People are just people no matter what they are fighting for.