Homeopathy--a light at the end of the tunnel

[NobbyNobbs]

On a recent trip to the local drug store (Walgreens, if you must know), I found myself in the ear-nose-throat aisle. I've been suffering from tintinitis (sp?) lately, and was hoping for a solution. They had plenty of ear drops for wax and so on, but my eye caught a bottle of tablets, designed for tintinitus. I was thrilled, until I saw the word "homeopathic".

For each item on the list, it said "3x" or "6x", which, while I don't remember details, I know has to do with how many times it's been diluted. I had absolutely no intention of purchasing such drek, but out of curiosity I brought the bottle up to the pharmicist's counter. I said to him, "Excuse me, I've never seen this '3x' notation before. What does it mean?"

He didn't know. He murmured to himself "3 times, 6 times?". However, I was extremely gratified when, after apparently seeing the word "homeopathic", he handed back the bottle and said, "This is garbage. Don't waste your money."

Phew. Now the only question left (which I wasn't bold enough to ask) is: why do they carry it on their shelves?

[Mojo]

Now the only question left (which I wasn't bold enough to ask) is: why do they carry it on their shelves?Head office tells them to. And they sell.

I've been suffering from tintinitis.I think that means that your Belgian journalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tintin_and_Snowy) is inflamed. :p

[Psi Baba]

Phew. Now the only question left (which I wasn't bold enough to ask) is: why do they carry it on their shelves?
It's likely that the pharmacist has no say-so regarding what OTC products the store carries. However, it's encouraging that he had the integrity to steer a customer away from the nonsense merchandise.

[Garrette]

For each item on the list, it said "3x" or "6x", which, while I don't remember details, I know has to do with how many times it's been diluted. If I correctly recall the discussions by those equipped to handle the technical details, 3x and 6x solutions are not sufficiently diluted to necessarily remove all traces of the mother tincture so in addition to being garbage as the pharmacist pointed out, these could possibly be dangerous.

I could be recalling incorrectly, though.

[gbed]

Having a small bout of pinkeye, I looked up conjunctivitis on WebMD. On the left hand side of the page popped up an over the counter remedy. Sadly, when I looked further I saw that it too was homeopathic. Not wanting to trust my cure to the placebo effect, I may have just book an appointment with my eye doctor.

[Garrette]

Not wanting to trust my cure to the placebo effect, I may have just book an appointment with my eye doctor.Coward.

I prescribe three viewings of The Secret.

[JoeTheJuggler]

X means a 1:10 dilution. 3X means that that's been done three times. The result is a 1:1000 dilution. 6X is a 1:100000 dilution. Of course, that's a dilution of whatever they started with. So, a 3X of .01% cortisone, for example, means a 1:1000 dilution of .01% cortisone (itself a 1:1000 dilution).

I would guess that none of them are dangerous. If they were giving real amounts of dangerous drugs, then they'd be regulated. On the other hand, a small (but real) dilution of menthol and the like is pretty innocuous.

Kudos for bringing it up to the pharmacist, Nobby. Every time I'm in a Walgreens and see their hangover remedy by the checkout (packaged to look just like a real OTC medication), I'm tempted to ask the pharmacist about it.

I realize these decisions are made by the head office (or whatever), but a pharmacist is a trained professional. I would imagine their word would carry SOME weight in these decisions. Also, Walgreens is certainly not the only place a pharmacist can work.

[Fnord]

I would guess that none of them are dangerous. If they were giving real amounts of dangerous drugs, then they'd be regulated. On the other hand, a small (but real) dilution of menthol and the like is pretty innocuous.
They are dangerous in that someone who needs real medicine will spend their money on worthless crap!

Imagine needing a 10$ dose of penicillen once per day for a month to cure pneumonia. Now imagine spending that 10$ per day on 1/1000000th of the dose you need. Worse yet, you could be spending the 10$ per day for what amounts to a 0.0001% solution of menthol in ordinary tap water! How soon do you think your pneumonia will be cured?

At the end of the month, if you live that long, you will have spent 300$ for nothing. People die from using these "elixers," not become they are inherently dangerous, but because their faith in quackery keeps them from pursuing a medical cure!

Sorta like relying on "faith healers" like Benny Hinn when surgury is the only real option. May as well just light a candle and curse the darkness.

[Cuddles]

I would guess that none of them are dangerous. If they were giving real amounts of dangerous drugs, then they'd be regulated. On the other hand, a small (but real) dilution of menthol and the like is pretty innocuous.

Check out the MHRA regulations in the UK. Homeopathic and herbal remedies can be sold with no regulation whatsoever. No doubt if people started getting ill from them they would be investigated, but there is nothing to stop people putting anything like in a bottle and selling it, and they are now even allowed to claim it works with no evidence whatsoever. Don't put too much faith in dangerous things being regulated.

[Mojo]

X means a 1:10 dilution. 3X means that that's been done three times. The result is a 1:1000 dilution. 6X is a 1:100000 dilution. Of course, that's a dilution of whatever they started with. So, a 3X of .01% cortisone, for example, means a 1:1000 dilution of .01% cortisone (itself a 1:1000 dilution).

I would guess that none of them are dangerous. If they were giving real amounts of dangerous drugs, then they'd be regulated. On the other hand, a small (but real) dilution of menthol and the like is pretty innocuous.It is by no means certain (at least in the US) that a remedy described as "homoeopathic" will not contain enough of the "active" ingredients to have an actual effect. By coincidence, I spotted this (http://www.plymouthpharmaceuticals.com/html/eczemol.htm) yesterday. The "active" ingredients are listed as potassium bromide, sulphur and nickel sulphate, each at 1X (i.e. a single 1 in ten dilution). The insert states that each tablet contains 15mg of bromide (so if you so are inclined, you should be able to figure out how much potassium), 1.5 mg of sulphur and 0.5mg Nickel. As these are all listed in the US Homoeopathic Pharmacopoeia it can be described as homoeopathic, but interestingly it seems to be prescription only. I'm not familiar with how these things work in the US; does this mean that only properly qualified and registered doctors can prescribe it? I think this would be the case in the UK.

There have been reports of side effects (in particular loss of sense of smell) from Zicam, a "homoeopathic" cold treatment containing "Zincum Gluconicum 1X" and "Zincum Aceticum 2X". Again, there are going to be appreciable amounts of these ingredients present.

In the UK (and I think the rest of the EU) neither of these would fall under the regulations for homoeopathic remedies as these state that homoeopathic remedies must be dilute enough for them not to have any effects.

[Baron Samedi]

They are dangerous in that someone who needs real medicine will spend their money on worthless crap!

Imagine needing a 10$ dose of penicillen once per day for a month to cure pneumonia. Now imagine spending that 10$ per day on 1/1000000th of the dose you need. Worse yet, you could be spending the 10$ per day for what amounts to a 0.0001% solution of menthol in ordinary tap water! How soon do you think your pneumonia will be cured?

At the end of the month, if you live that long, you will have spent 300$ for nothing. People die from using these "elixers," not become they are inherently dangerous, but because their faith in quackery keeps them from pursuing a medical cure!

Sorta like relying on "faith healers" like Benny Hinn when surgury is the only real option. May as well just light a candle and curse the darkness.

I actually would disagree with this one. It's like the evolutionary development of parasites and viruses (virii?). If the virus is too effective and kills the host right away, the virus won't be able to pass on as easily and it, too, will die. Same with homeopathic remedies. The money's not in cancer "cures", since your repeat business is small. The big money's in cold remedies, things where most people will get better anyway. Now you have a great repeat customer.

That's all just theory. A bitter cynical theory, granted. I would love to see sales volume by type of remedy, though.

[EternalSceptic]

They are dangerous in that someone who needs real medicine will spend their money on worthless crap!

Imagine needing a 10$ dose of penicillen once per day for a month to cure pneumonia. Now imagine spending that 10$ per day on 1/1000000th of the dose you need. Worse yet, you could be spending the 10$ per day for what amounts to a 0.0001% solution of menthol in ordinary tap water! How soon do you think your pneumonia will be cured?

At the end of the month, if you live that long, you will have spent 300$ for nothing. People die from using these "elixers," not become they are inherently dangerous, but because their faith in quackery keeps them from pursuing a medical cure!

Sorta like relying on "faith healers" like Benny Hinn when surgury is the only real option. May as well just light a candle and curse the darkness.

Just to put things on a solid basis:

In mid february 2003 i had influenza (the real thing). At this time I was working on a large program and time scale was pretty tight, so I decided to continue working - and was few days later greeted by a heavy pneumonia. The doctor in my village is of the very "hesitant with antibiotics" sort, but upon my request he prescribed Ciprofloxacin, but at a dose close to the lower limit. When the fever was down to 37.5 a week later he decided to half the dose. I obeyed (my fault, I should have known better and should have disagreed). 24 hour later the fever was up near 40 again. Now I demanded prescription of Augmentin, the 1000mg version and got it (really a bomb, you need fork and knive to eat it :)). 36 hours later all symptoms were gone, and I took all the rest of the package - which was another week. So far so good. But at this time it was ways tool late - the infection had moved into the pleura region (the space between lung and ribs) and continued it's subversive actions there, unfortunately without dramatic symptoms. Just some temperature in the afternoon, sweating (heavy, once I thought, I had peed into my bed)) during the nights, and frequently pain when I was breatheing.
This went on for 2 months, and at this time I was convinced to have lung cancer in a state where there are no chances to survive. Finally I consulted a lung specialist, and he was also suspecting LC. Fortunately the tests (measurement of lung capacity among them) caused me to break down in the evening of this day. I came over the night with some heavy pain-killer, but in the following morning I was actually unable to breathe by moving my chest, I only could get some air into my lung moving my stomach (I hope you understand, I am missing the necessary english words).

Well, the end of the story: I spent two months in hospital, hat three operations, (thorakoscopy, thorakotomy -where they removed about 2 liters of matter form my pleura- and a secondary treatment of the of course infected wound) was flooded with massive doses of several antbiotica, had a drain in my chest after i was released from hospital for another two weeks.

Why I tell this story?

Had this doctor, instead of hesitating and prescribing an insufficient dose, instead prescribed the same antibiotic in twice the dose and continued for another ten days nothing of the above had happened. I want to show that even a slightly insufficient medication can laed to very bad results. What for heavens sake will happen if somebody tries to cure such things with a placebo?

_Keep your fingers off homeopathy if you are really sick_!!

[Mojo]

_Keep your fingers off homeopathy if you are really sick_!!An imaginary treatment is always going to be best at treating conditions that will get better of their own accord, or that are imaginary themselves.

[EternalSceptic]

An imaginary treatment is always going to be best at treating conditions that will get better of their own accord, or that are imaginary themselves.

True.

My girlfriend practices "energetics", but in a IMO good way:
She sees what she is doing as a sort of "wellness" service and sends clients to a doctor if she has even the slightest feeling that the client is really sick in a pretty harsh way (And please believe me, I am _not_ biased in this).

And when her clients leave, they do feel better, because there was somebody who listened, did something which was feeling good, used some natural massage oils (which don't do any harm but make the skin feel smooth and more tensioned). But she does never try or claim to heal, because she _knows_ her limited capabilities, (she had breast cancer and is still on chemothrapy, no attempt of "magical cure").

IMO this is an aspect of all these "alternative practices" which is positive _if it is used with utmost care_ and on healthy persons only.

Same goes with hoeopathy, if an experienced and responsible doctor uses it in a careful and responsible way.

OTOH totally uneducated, astronomically stupid "healers" and believers (not only homeopathists, totally stupid parents as well) are an acute danger to live and should be debunked and put down with any possible action, inluding police intervention (we had such a case in Austria some years ago, and there others known in Europe).

[JoeTheJuggler]

_Keep your fingers off homeopathy if you are really sick_!!

Amen.

In another thread, people were talking about Head-On (the homeopathic you apply directly to your forehead for headaches). There's so much wrong with the notion of applying ANY headache cure to the skin of your forehead, but I pointed out there that since the Extra Strength is actually an even smaller amount of the ingredients, following the Law of Infinitesimals, wouldn't it be better to apply it as far from your headache as possible--say the soles of the feet?

For that matter, wouldn't the most effective use of a topical homeopathic remedy be to stay as far away as possible from it?

[Fnord]

Homeopathy is attractive for the same reasons that tarot readings are attractive:

a) For a minimum initial outlay of materials (tap water, tarot cards, etc.), the profit margin can be represented by a positive slope on a graph.

b) The need for seekers to believe in something outweighs their desire to verify the truth.

c) There's a seeker born every minute.

Let's see ... 1 ounce of 9X silver tincture (0.0000001% solution) costs about 10 US dollars ... that's about as much as 1 ounce of .9999 silver!

1) If I make 100 units per day of the above tincture, how many units can I produce until I've used up 1 ounce of .9999 silver?

2) Using the answer to question 1, determine the gross profit if I sell 100 units per day of the aforementioned tincture until all of the .9999 silver is used up.

3) How long can I get away with this scam until criminal charges are brought against me?

;) ... hypothetically speaking, of course...

[Fnord]

In another thread, people were talking about Head-On (the homeopathic you apply directly to your forehead for headaches) ... wouldn't the most effective use of a topical homeopathic remedy be to stay as far away as possible from it?

I'll never buy or use "Head-On" because of the following information that I ripped from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeadOn): "Chemical analysis has shown that the product consists almost entirely of wax. The two listed active ingredients, white bryony (a type of vine) and potassium dichromate, are diluted to .000001 PPM and 1 PPM respectively. This amount of dilution is so great that the product is arguably a placebo."

And ...

"All species of bryony are poisonous plants. The toxins contained are irritants."

[Baron Samedi]

Amen.

In another thread, people were talking about Head-On (the homeopathic you apply directly to your forehead for headaches). There's so much wrong with the notion of applying ANY headache cure to the skin of your forehead, but I pointed out there that since the Extra Strength is actually an even smaller amount of the ingredients, following the Law of Infinitesimals, wouldn't it be better to apply it as far from your headache as possible--say the soles of the feet?

For that matter, wouldn't the most effective use of a topical homeopathic remedy be to stay as far away as possible from it?

Ha, I'll have to remember that arguement. Or bring a tub of the stuff the next time I go to the pool. If the Law of Infinitesimals works, then everybody swimming should be headache free for months! I'll be a hero! :D

[tracer]

Check out the MHRA regulations in the UK. Homeopathic and herbal remedies can be sold with no regulation whatsoever.
Sadly, when it comes to homeopathy, it's the same here in the good ol' U.S. of A..

Here in America, even your average "alternative medicine" herbal remedy has to carry the following warning label:
These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
No such labelling requirement exists for homeopathic remedies!

Now that the public has started to wise up to the fact that herbal remedies don't have to be proven safe or effective, many consumers now look for that "These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA" label and avoid any product they see with that label on it.

So, to sneak around this, a lot of herbal and otherwise worthless remedies are re-casting themselves as "homeopathic," so that they don't have to display the FDA warning label. For instance, zinc lozenges are an old favorite quack cold cure. But if they were sold as just plain old zinc lozenges, they'd have to have the FDA warning label on them. Instead, the pills are advertised as a "1X tincture of Zincum", thereby moving them into the hopeopathic camp.

[EternalSceptic]

Sadly, when it comes to homeopathy, it's the same here in the good ol' U.S. of A..

Here in America, even your average "alternative medicine" herbal remedy has to carry the following warning label:

No such labelling requirement exists for homeopathic remedies!

Now that the public has started to wise up to the fact that herbal remedies don't have to be proven safe or effective, many consumers now look for that "These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA" label and avoid any product they see with that label on it.

So, to sneak around this, a lot of herbal and otherwise worthless remedies are re-casting themselves as "homeopathic," so that they don't have to display the FDA warning label. For instance, zinc lozenges are an old favorite quack cold cure. But if they were sold as just plain old zinc lozenges, they'd have to have the FDA warning label on them. Instead, the pills are advertised as a "1X tincture of Zincum", thereby moving them into the hopeopathic camp.

I beg to slightly disagree (about the herbal remedies). They are not diluted and they can be pretty dangerous. *g* a 1x dilution of death-cup can cause pretty interesting effects :) :(