Catholicism and the Roman Empire

[Big Al]

I've been struck by something recently that may be well-known long-yawn stuff to others, but it fascinates me.

Of course, I know the rough history of the RC Church via Constantine, Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Empire, but it seems to me that it is an actual continuation of the Roman Empire.


As the gospels progress in order of complexity, Pilate becomes more and more the misunderstood bad guy. Longinus becomes a blessed agent of mercy.
Aren't nuns just modern versions of the Vestal Virgins? The highly-sexed Romans saw celibacy as a holy and superhuman attribute, and the Vestals were highly respected.
Despite claiming to be a montheistic religion in the Judaic mould, we have this convoluted Trinity buisiness, and all these saints. You're not supposed to pray to God directly; you have to find out which particular saint deals with, say, inflamed haemorrhoids, and pray to them instead. Aren't these specialist saints just like Roman gods? You had a whole panoply of gods for all sorts of special subjects, with Jupiter as the CEO of the conglomerate. And what about angels, archangels, cherubim, seraphim, etc?
Catholic churches have altars, even though they no longer sacrifice animals on them. But what else is an altar for?
I'd be interested to know other people's views on this.

[Malachi151]

See some of my articles related to this:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/understanding_evolution.htm

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm

By the way, the Romans as a whole were not "over sexed", that itself is Christian propaganda. On the whole the Roman citizens were conservative and reserved.

The emperors may have been over sexed, and there were certain regions, such as Pompey, that were like our versions of Las Vegas, but in general the Romans citizenry was quite conservative and reserved and monogamous.

[fuelair]

Catholic churches have altars, even though they no longer sacrifice animals on them. But what else is an altar for?[/LIST]
I'd be interested to know other people's views on this.

Sacrificing humans of course?

[Big Al]

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/understanding_evolution.htm

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm (http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm)

Good site, Malachi151.

By the way, the Romans as a whole were not "over sexed", that itself is Christian propaganda. On the whole the Roman citizens were conservative and reserved.

The ordinary Romans didn't make the rules; the more liberal Patricians did. And celibacy WAS regarded as a holy state in ancient Rome.

[Didaktylos]

Lately, I've been coming to the opinion that Constantine used Christianity as a means of re-badging The Elder Cato's ("Delenda est Carthago") ideas on social discipline. This re-badging would have been necessary because Cato would never have approved of the Imperial Monarchy.

[Big Al]

Interesting idea, Didaktylos. I've always found it hard to swallow that Constantine just had this sudden vision that converted him immediately to Christianity. You offer a plausible motive.

(interesting that the Almighty God didn't order him to abolish gladiatorial games forthwith - it was another 11 years before he issued a lukewarm edict, and 92 years before they were firmly abolished.)

[Malachi151]

Lately, I've been coming to the opinion that Constantine used Christianity as a means of re-badging The Elder Cato's ("Delenda est Carthago") ideas on social discipline. This re-badging would have been necessary because Cato would never have approved of the Imperial Monarchy.

By the time that Constantine was emperor there were a lot of Christians in the Roman army, and Rome was a military dictatorship, so you had to cater to the army. The army basically controlled the politics. All the emperors were generals, etc.

Constantine embraced Christianity (you notice the legend is linked to military victory) in order to retain the graces of the military and keep them on his side.

[Retrograde]

There is still quite a bit of old Rome left in Roman Catholicism - the language, for one thing. I'll try to answer as best I can, being an ex-Catholic with a strong interest in most aspects of history.


As the gospels progress in order of complexity, Pilate becomes more and more the misunderstood bad guy. Longinus becomes a blessed agent of mercy. Longinus? He's not in the version of the gospels I'm familiar with.


Aren't nuns just modern versions of the Vestal Virgins? The highly-sexed Romans saw celibacy as a holy and superhuman attribute, and the Vestals were highly respected.Not quite: nuns developed differently from communities of religious women, who accounted for many members of the early Church, and in many ways paralleled male monastic orders. There were a lot of similarities, probably because of convergent evolution. See "Sisters in Arms" by McNamara for more than you care to know about nuns.

Despite claiming to be a montheistic religion in the Judaic mould, we have this convoluted Trinity buisiness, and all these saints. You're not supposed to pray to God directly; you have to find out which particular saint deals with, say, inflamed haemorrhoids, and pray to them instead. Aren't these specialist saints just like Roman gods? You had a whole panoply of gods for all sorts of special subjects, with Jupiter as the CEO of the conglomerate. And what about angels, archangels, cherubim, seraphim, etc?This is one of the old Protestant complaints about Catholicism. Officially, saints are intercessors, and one asks them to ask God for favors, sort of like going to the CEO's admin to really get something done. Unofficially, they do seem like a remnant of polytheism - northern European as well as Roman - and may have made conversion easier for the masses. Angels, etc., appear in the Hebrew bible as messengers of God.

Catholic churches have altars, even though they no longer sacrifice animals on them. But what else is an altar for?Well, the central point of the Mass is the re-enactment of Jesus's sacrifice for himself to atone for the sins of mankind, with the bread and wine substituting for the flesh and blood. They also serve as a focal point for the congregation. Altars seem common to many belief systems, including ancient Judaism, back when sacrifices were offered at the temple.

There are other more direct links to ancient Rome. When a pope dies, he is struck on the forehead and called three times by his baptismal name, a direct copying from the Roman funeral rites of conclamatio. The Curia, chief officials in a diocese who are responsible for the day to day running of things, may be based on the old Roman Curia. The pope - one of whose titles is Pontifex Maximus, the same as the high priest of ancient Rome -is elected by the College of Cardinals similarly to the way the Roman prototype was selected by the Roman pontifical college.

BTW, Roman Catholicism -the Latin rite - is only one form of Catholicism. There are other versions that are considered Catholic in the sense that they accept the pope in Rome as their spiritual leader but follow very different rites, more strongly influenced by Byzantine and other eastern cultures.

No, I wasn't raised by Jesuits, but my father was