Return of the Jehovah's Witnesses

[RenaissanceBiker]

A few weeks ago I was doing some yard work and a pair of Jehovah's Witnesses stopped by. They were canvassing my neighborhood on a Saturday morning. A teenaged boy began talkiing about their church but after finding out I am an atheist the older gentleman took over. We talked politely for about an hour. They tried their best to convert me, including the "shake a box of watch parts and they won't assemble into a watch" chestnut. The gentleman asked if I would read a book he had on creationism and I agreed on the condition he read Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World. I told him he could probably find it at the library. He said he would and that he would return afterwards to discuss it.

To my surprise he came back yesterday with a middle aged woman. He said he had read it and found the Baloney Detection Kit interesting. I asked him what he thought of the chapter on the Dragon in my Garage and he changed the subject. I objected to his assertion that morality comes from God and sent him into retreat on that subject. I brought up their beliefs about blood transfusions and said they are putting peoples lives at risk over a poor interpretation of the superstitions of some bronze age tribesmen from the middle east. He said that in the book Cosmos Sagan said that the complexity of life led him to believe in a great designer. I said that I haven't read that but I believe he was probably taken out of context. He felt that was some kind of victory and agreed to come back another time to talk about it more.

My teenage daughter's boyfriend was visiting and they listened for awhile from my garage. He later said that I "totally owned them."

[Corpse Cruncher]

I find coming to the door, covered in blood works just fine for removing these pests from the doorway. I do mean pests. I loathe deeply being harassed by religious folks. It is that or I yell "I'm going to a place that makes the proverbial hell look like a Butlins resort, and nobody's gonna convert me otherwise." I really do detest religion and those who preach it.

I might try a gentler approach along your lines.

[Marc L]

I find coming to the door, covered in blood works just fine for removing these pests from the doorway. I do mean pests. I loathe deeply being harassed by religious folks. It is that or I yell "I'm going to a place that makes the proverbial hell look like a Butlins resort, and nobody's gonna convert me otherwise." I really do detest religion and those who preach it.

I might try a gentler approach along your lines.

That's not a bad idea. While I agree it's annoying to have people harassing you like that, just coming out with rudeness is likely to feed into their theory that atheists are immoral by definition. I've found in my (admittedly limited) experience with door to door missionaries that a simple, "No thank you, I'm not interested" works just fine, especially if I'm closing (not slamming) the door as I say it.

Marc

[RenaissanceBiker]

I think being polite is the way to go. Being rude just helps them demonize you. At one point in our morality discussion I mentioned that it would be ridiculous for me to expect the freedom to believe whatever I want, and not grant the same freedom to others. He agreed with that position, then I said, "That's why I don't go door to door trying to convert others to atheism." His reply was, "Well, our belief is that we have to." I politely said, "I understand."

[Corpse Cruncher]

True but am I an atheist? I think not. I don't need it or any religious related drivel going on. To me atheism is becoming a religion in the loosest sense. Why do the godless, the anti-religious, no need for a god here brigade, need a label.

What can I say, its my door don't darken it with religious filth.

Would they like it if I knocked on their door, promoting atheism or some other religion? No!
Religion gets me worked up. Some people need it but they never can accurately say why. Fear is what they have, emotional fear that blackmails them.

God, where the damn is he/she/it/they and why the suffering, and don't anybody tell me it's his plan. Plan my a$$. We put tyrants down for the same cruel acts but God he gets off Scott free and worshipped to boot.

Twisted, very twisted.

Oops I ranted. Sorry.

[Fizzer]

I find coming to the door, covered in blood works just fine for removing these pests from the doorway.

And as they walk away down the street one will say to the other, "well, there was yet another weird guy trying to be shocking or scary, oh well." And then when they meet up with the rest of the group it'll start a conversation about the weirdest things that you've seen going house to house and everyone will laugh.


I do mean pests. I loathe deeply being harassed by religious folks. It is that or I yell "I'm going to a place that makes the proverbial hell look like a Butlins resort, and nobody's gonna convert me otherwise."

JW's don't believe in hell.

[RenaissanceBiker]

JW's don't believe in hell.

That is true. He said only a limited number of people will go to Heaven. They think unbelievers will simply die a permanent death and exist no more (how sad). Believers who don't get to go to heaven will live here in a new "perfect" earth where the climate is nice all over the globe and everything lives together in harmony. It will be like a restored Garden of Eden.

[Crazycowbob]

I find coming to the door, covered in blood works just fine for removing these pests from the doorway.

Hmm, not a bad tactic, but really, you should invite them in for dinner! I don't know about you, but they don't really come around here often enough to keep my basement stocked...

[RenaissanceBiker]

Besides, who has a bucket of blood waiting around for when the JWs show up? I'm usually outside doing something when they just walk up.

[Gaspode]

Jehovah's Witnesses are used to being turned away at the door. It's what they expect.

Instead, invite them in for a nice cup of tea. That will unsettle them, causing them to lose all confidence and be unable to perform their missionary duties for the rest of the day.

[thrombus29]

One of my employees is a JW (Best Feature: She works all the holidays). We spend about a hour a week talking about religion and she takes the time as service credit, so I am helping society by keeping her off the street for that amount of time.

She discussing her religion with me, because as a atheist, I explain that I don't find her religion any more ridiculous than any other. She knows that all she has to say to get me to stop needling a point is that she takes that point on faith, not reason. Also since I don't have a dog in the salvation fight, I can calmly explain my points without getting heated (Like other believers who see any challenge to their beliefs as personal insult).

Most people in the church are in for social reasons, they were raised that way and they don't know any better. Even if everything about reason, science and evil-oution sunk in to her head and she had a Secular Epiphany, the church provides such a positive framework for life and family, I doubt she would leave.

[UnrepentantSinner]

They tried their best to convert me, including the "shake a box of watch parts and they won't assemble into a watch" chestnut. The gentleman asked if I would read a book he had on creationism

I wonder if they teach this in JW witnessing class to be the first "argument" presented against atheism as I had the same experience myself the first time I had a pair show up at my door. After I told them I was atheist and they asked to talk the first thing they brought up was evolution. At the time I wasn't as knowledgable about specific Creationist arguments as I am now, but I was head and shoulders more knowledgable then they were.

Many mainstream Christians tell their fellows not to try and engage JWs in a proof text dual because most of them aren't as aware of the Bible's content as they think. I wonder if the JWs think the same thing applies to atheists and evolution/science?

He said that in the book Cosmos Sagan said that the complexity of life led him to believe in a great designer. I said that I haven't read that but I believe he was probably taken out of context.

Not only is that completely out of context, it's one of those Darwin's death bed urban legends they spread. I have both the book in hardcover and the DVD and nowhere in either is there any mention of a "great designer" when biology is being discussed.

[Corpse Cruncher]

Besides, who has a bucket of blood waiting around for when the JWs show up? I'm usually outside doing something when they just walk up.Who says I have it in a bucket? :D

Crazycowbob, when supplies dwindle I go for the politicians, door to door sale and if that there is that failsafe of the neighbours ;)


Fizzer, if they believe in heaven, hell must exist if not they are in violation of their own religion. I would rather die a permanent death than spend time upstairs with a bunch of JW's. If they laugh that is their prerogative to do so. At least I enter their mind as a seed of demonic weirdness. But they do take notice, and the ones I did this too don't call back. :D


As for inviting them, Satan and God could come knocking on my door and still I would beat them off my property with a stiff broom or a meat cleaver, which is more in my hands than a broom.

[SezMe]

My teenage daughter's boyfriend was visiting and they listened for awhile from my garage. He later said that I "totally owned them."
Don't take it too seriously, He's just trying to get in her jeans and figures being on the good side of dad just might help. :)

[RenaissanceBiker]

Don't take it too seriously, He's just trying to get in her jeans and figures being on the good side of dad just might help. :)

I know that. I was a teenage boy once. He has a healthly respect for and fear of me.

I took him to the pistol range and taught him to shoot my grandpa's .22 revolver. When I pulled out my .357, he declined to shoot it but had to watch me tear up some paper targets with it. I set up an archery range in my backyard and let him shoot my compound bow. At 25 yards he completely missed 2 straw bales. I then put 6 arrows in a 6-inch circle. He knows I'm a deer hunter and an army vet.

When I'm not around I'm sure his hormones overcome his fear and respect. The Mrs. and I make sure he doesn't have many opportunities like that. This time, I don't think he was trying to get on my good side. I think he had never seen anyone engage door-to-door evangelists before.

[Juustin]

I've said it before and I still believe it, you'll do a lot more good by being civil to them, rather than trying to offend them. My wife's family is all JW's, and she herself used to go out in service all the time when she was younger. You'd be the 1000th person to try to "freak them out" or make them angry/sad; it doesn't even bother them. They've seen it all before, and (at best) they'll just laugh about it later when they compare stores, or (at worst) it will confirm the crap they've been taught all their life about how they have to fear everyone outside of their religion.

The main tool this religion (and many others) uses, is totally cutting the members off from society as much as possible. Many of them were brought up in it, it's all they know, and they were fiercly guarded from any outside viewpoints. Most of my wife's friends (who have become my friends over the years as well) are nice people, and a lot of them are (at least partially) in it because, as thrombus stated, it's a social network. A lot of people have a hard time unlearning the religion they were taught as a child if it was forcefed enough. Combine that with the fear of losing every friend you have (who may not want to stop associating with you, but will get kicked out themselves if they do), and it's enough to make a lot of people grin and bear it, and not question it.

Most of my in-laws had a pre-formed opinion of me when they first met me (or hadn't met me at all), since I was the "worldly" guy who was "stealing" their daughter from their religion. At that point, they didn't even know I was an atheist. I've known them for 10 years, and we still get along, I don't pressure them about their beliefs, they don't pressure me. My wife, who was 16 and on the fence at the time, and under a lot of pressure to get baptized, ended up getting a more rounded perspective due to spending time with someone with an alternate viewpoint, and ended up getting out of it. Not by me pressuring her, it just because a natural view she took on once seeing it through an outsider's eyes.

Granted, all that isn't going to happen by simply being nice to them at your door. But you have to separate the religion as a whole from the people who were basically forced into it when they were too young to develop a different opinion. The choice you need to make is: Send them away thinking "Maybe all atheists aren't evil people who sit home worshipping the devil", or send them away thinking "My parents/elders were right, non-JWs are evil" (which is basically fodder for the religion in general).

Fin.

[Jocky]

One of my employees is a JW (Best Feature: She works all the holidays)

I once let a house I owned to a JW couple, and they were the best tenants ever. Rent paid every month in full and on time, lots of little repair jobs on the house done at no cost to me (apart from materials), and when I gave them notice to move out (I was selling the house), they left it in pristine condition.

Even better, they never once talked to me about religion.

As a result, I'm always nice to JWs when they knock on my door, although not to the point of letting them win my soul ;)

[UnrepentantSinner]

I agree with the don't offend sentiment... but, there's a world of difference between confronting them in a King Diamond t-shirt, wearing fake goat horns and getting a blood transfusion and merely opening the door in your underwear and a robe and saying, "do you have some tracts" and sending them on their way.

[Fizzer]

Who says I have it in a bucket? :D

Fizzer, if they believe in heaven, hell must exist if not they are in violation of their own religion. I would rather die a permanent death than spend time upstairs with a bunch of JW's. If they laugh that is their prerogative to do so. At least I enter their mind as a seed of demonic weirdness. But they do take notice, and the ones I did this too don't call back. :D

The vast majority of JW's have no expectation or desire to go to heaven. As mentioned in an earlier message, it's the earth-wide Eden that God originally purposed for the earth that they expect to live on. And the JW belief is that permanent death is the punishment, not eternal torment in hell. Hell is simply the grave.

[rachaella]

Being nice didn't work for my mother and I. We started out being pleasant, accepting the tracts, but politely saying "We're not interested" and maybe cordially engaging in some debate. However, they just kept coming back. The one lady became two ladies. The two ladies came back week after week. The one lady brought her son in her 20's. The tracts kept on coming. Eventually they brought their superior. We would be eating, showering, watching TV, etc. and the doorbell would ring with more tracts. Finally, after bringing the superior with no success, they gave up, however this must have been after 3-4 months of weekly trying and the last month was of tract-grabbing and swift door slamming. No more nice strategy for me! I'll stick with not answering the door.

[Fizzer]

Being nice didn't work for my mother and I. We started out being pleasant, accepting the tracts, but politely saying "We're not interested" and maybe cordially engaging in some debate. However, they just kept coming back.

They kept coming back because you took the tracts and because you talked to them.

however this must have been after 3-4 months of weekly trying and the last month was of tract-grabbing and swift door slamming.

Again, you were taking the tracts.


No more nice strategy for me! I'll stick with not answering the door.

They'll most likely come back more frequently if you don't answer your door in an attempt to find you at home. Once you do answer the door (and presumably tell them you're not interested, without taking tracts) they most likely won't be back for several months.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Taking the tracts while not engaging them in conversation seems to work. At least it did for me. I think it conveys the message that I know who they are, why they're here and that I'm not interested so just go through the motions and get on your way... Buh-bye.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Early one morning last summer, on my day off, I'm awakened from a peaceful, life-renewing slumber by the sound of the door bell. Deeply annoyed I rouse my self and come down from my room wearing nothing by a t-shirt and briefs.

This had better be ^%$#ing important! I thought to myself as I unlocked and opened the door.

"Good morning" the 20-something year old man wearing a white shirt and black tie and pants says to me. "Would you like some free scientific
information that proves the biblical Creation?"

I stood in stunned silence for a second, then I opened my mouth to say the words I was longing to speak for years if the opportunity arose:

"Buddy, you picked the wrong door to come to this morning. It's bad enough you have to drag me from my nice soft bed on my day off, but you do so in order to spew you're religious anti-science bull---- at me, the proverbial Village Atheist? Give me one good reason--just one--why I shouldn't introduce that literature of yours to your prostate! Here's a newsflash for you Mordecai, or Zebadiah, or whatever the hell your name is: THERE IS NO GOD! YOUR BIBLE IS NOT EVEN USEFUL AS TOILET PAPER! WHEN YOU DIE, YOU'RE DEAD, AND YOU SPEND ETERNITY ROTTING AWAY IN A BOX. OH, AND HUMAN BEINGS HAVE COMMON ANCESTORS WITH LOWER PRIMATES, YOU STUPID, BARBARIC, CHRSTARD!!!"

"No thank you," was all I could bring myself to say. Either he was upset by my exceedingly angry visage, or the fact that I was standing around in my underwear, because he said his goodbyes and made a hasty retreat.

I slammed the door behind me, cursed the ancient Hebrews for bringing this scourge upon us in the first place, and went back to bed knowing that the rest of my day was probably going to be shot in the rear.

[RenaissanceBiker]

Being nice didn't work for my mother and I.

I think the key is polite disagreement. "We're not interested." is avoidance. "We're not interested in joining a cult." will start a disagreement. As someone else said, if I make them spend an hour with me, many of my neighbors will be spared. You may not have an hour to spare, sometimes I don't. Another thing you could do is just say, "I already belong to a cult." Here's one I've been waiting to use:

RB: "God told me he doesn't exist."

JW: "What?"

RB: "Yeah, he walked into my kitchen last month. There was no mistaking his divine presence. I felt an overwhelming sense of peace and power. He was wearing boots, jeans and a plain black t-shirt, but I couldn't see his face. He sat down next to me and we talked. I told him, 'I never knew you existed.' and he just sighed and said, 'I don't.' 'Don't what?' I asked. He said, 'I don't exist. I have decided to remove myself from all of space and time. I never existed and I never will.' I was shocked and managed to say, 'Heaven and Hell? Angels and Satan?' He shook his head, 'Never was and never will be.' I asked, 'Jesus, Moses and Mohammed?' He answered, 'They were mortal men like you, nothing special about them.' We sat there a while then I asked him, 'What are you going to do now?' He stood up and said, 'Nothing.' then vanished."

JW: "How can God tell you he doesn't exist if he doesn't?"

RB: "I don't know. He moves in mysterious ways, or rather he did. Really, I guess he never moved in mysterious ways and he never will. Anyway, God told me he doesn't exist. Who am I to argue?"

[Marc L]

RB: "God told me he doesn't exist."


Interestingly enough, there is actually a website where a guy claims he had a spiritual encounter with God, and God told him not to believe in him. I'll have to do a google search when I have a little more time, and post the link.

Marc

[Cleon]

I don't mind religious conversations. I don't even mind being preached to; it hones the ability to debate politely.

However, if you knock on MY door to try and convert me, then my personal philosophy is that you have presented yourself for my personal entertainment.

My personal favorites:

(Open door)
JW: Hi, would you like to check out...
Me: I'm sorry, I already have a religion.
JW: May I ask what that is?
Me: I'd rather not say. I'm not sure if it's legal in this country.

(Look through peephole. See it's JWs or Mormons. Whip out Little Cleon.)
(Open door)
Me: Hi! Can I help you? (Extra cheerful.)
JW: Um...
Me: Are you selling magazine subscriptions or something? (Still cheerful.)
JW: Uh, do you have the time?
Me: Sure, it's 8:30 in the *********** morning. (Still, big smile on my face.)
JW: Uh, thank you. (Turns around and walks away.)

(Open door)
JW: Hi, we'd like to give you this tract and talk about blah blah blah
Me: (Take tract, kneel down, and give tract to pet rabbit, who loves chewing on paper.)
JW: ....
Me: (Shut door.)

Word of explanation for the next two: For the first five years I lived in Atlanta, I lived in Doraville, a town that is 70%+ immigrant, mainly Mexican and Central American. My apartment complex was maybe 95% hispanic; my Spanish is pretty good, so I got on pretty well, was friendly with the neighbors, and generally enjoyed living in a sort of "little Mexico City."

The first story deals with the one and only time the Mormons sent people to my complex. It was Friday evening, I was cranky after a long day at work, and I was waiting for my Chinese food to be delivered.

I opened the door, and saw two young white kids (maybe 17ish), in full Mormon attire. I was genuinely shocked; LDS is a very "white" church, and usually when door-to-door preachers came knocking in Doraville, they're usually native Spanish speakers themselves.

Me: What the ****? Mormons?!!?
Mormon: (pause) Uh, hi. (holds out hand) My name is Elder Larry.
Me: (shakes hand) You look more like Younger Larry to me.
Mormon: Uh, yeah. Can we talk to you for a minute?
Me: No, I'm busy.
Mormon: Um, ok. Can I just ask you a quick question?
Me: (Anticipating the chance to give a really outrageous answer) Sure! (Big smile.)
Mormon: Uh...How many people in this building speak English?

At this point, I realized that they had probably just wasted several hours of their "missionary" time trying to "witness" to people they couldn't communicate with. My building was fairly far back in the complex, so they had to have been pantomiming to a lot of people.

I responded: "Well, there's me, there's you, and there's your buddy over there. That's it." The Mormons never came back. :D


This one also requires some back story: I learned Spanish mainly from working with a bunch of Spaniards (as in, from Spain) one summer in college. As a result, when I speak Spanish, I have a sort of weird Castillian-American accent which comes across really, really weird to people from Latin America. So this conversation (which I originally posted back in 2004) was entirely in Spanish, but the guy preaching to me seemed to think I didn't really understand him all that well:


I open the door.

Preacher: Hi! Do you know Jesus?
Me: Sure, he lives on the first floor. Apartment B.
Preacher: No, no, Jesus Christ.
Me: Hrm? No, Jesus' last name is Alvarez, I think.
Preacher: You know, Jesus. The son of God. Our savior.
Me: Well, Jesus is a pretty nice guy, but I don't know that I'd go that far.
(At this point the preacher was becoming annoyed. I think he thought it was a language issue.)
Preacher: Do you have religion?
Me: I don't think so, but I'll check the kitchen. Do you need to borrow some?
Preacher: What? I mean, do you believe in God? (Dios)
Me: Days (dias)? Well, I do stay out late...

At this point the preacher just handed me an English tract--which he couldn't read--and left.

[Jon.]

Interestingly enough, there is actually a website where a guy claims he had a spiritual encounter with God, and God told him not to believe in him. I'll have to do a google search when I have a little more time, and post the link.

Marc

That would probably be www.jhuger.com, which is also the home of my all-time favourite parable, Kissing Hank's Ass.

[Earthborn]

My teenage daughter's boyfriend was visiting and they listened for awhile from my garage.From the garage, eh? Are they dragons? :p