Harry Potter vs the Bible

[vIQleS]

For the next school holidays we're running a workshop for the kids - making a 'magic' book (with powerpoint), to coincide with the launch of the new HP book.

I'm anticipating some reaction from the more intense religious types (many of whom are regulars on the SHWs*

I'd like to be ready when they come in to complain with some solid arguments and bible verses

Something like:

"What's your problem with Harry Potter / the SHW?"

"Bible says magic bad"

"Who's practising magic?"

"Harry potter"

"A fictional Character? So we should kill him in accordance with blah chapter blah verse blah? How do you propose we do that?"

And so forth.

Has anyone got a list of cool bible verses? Particularly dealing with magic etc... (also the standard slavery etc)

Anyone had this argument already? Any tips?


*School Holiday Workshop

[EHLO]

Doh! I thought from the title of the thread you knew what the next book in the series was going to be...

Seriously though, what's wrong with saying "it's just a book - get over it?"

[vIQleS]

But that's the point.. To them, its not just a book. I don't really get it - i was never that fanatic - but they really seem to think that a book can be evil.

[EHLO]

I just think that engaging in any discussion of this kind just validates their position that it is actually worth discussing when it isn't. Sometimes being plainly (but politely) blunt about such matters can be far more effective.

[c4ts]

If religion is supposed to make you happy, why is it generating new fears in these guys? A world so fraught with supernatural terrors and conspiracies that even the mildest children's book can hold evil witchcraft is not a happy place.

[jesus_freak]

Doh! I thought from the title of the thread you knew what the next book in the series was going to be...

Seriously though, what's wrong with saying "it's just a book - get over it?"

Well the Bible is just a book right? and is that allowed to be taught in public schools...I forget.

[EHLO]

Well the Bible is just a book right? and is that allowed to be taught in public schools...I forget.

I don't think anyone has suggested that Harry Potter be taught as a factual discourse on reality, but I'll bite.

If this thread had been about someone concerned of the taunts they might get for organising a Christmas play on the nativity my advice would be pretty much the same. Neat huh?

[MRC_Hans]

During the discussion following The Da Vinci Code, some Danish member of Opus Dei, made a very wise remark in a newpaper interview. He said:

When you look at page one in the book, right under the title, it says "A novel". That means that everything past that point is basically fiction. Including any claims about reality.

I suggest you make the same remark about HP. And, of course, in HP you won't even find any claims that any part in it builds on reality.

Hans

[slingblade]

From a former Fundie POV, I understand exactly where that particular type of parent/child is going to be coming from.

You see, and it's really ironic, honest it is, these parents do know how vulnerable the child mind can be to manipulation of belief. They think the best examples are of the Santa Claus and Tooth Fairy types, not consciously realizing that belief in God also requires that same unwilling suspension of disblief as the former.


(...or do they?)

Anyway, to even expose their children to those things the bible says are abominations, sinful, wicked...well, that would be like tacitly approving them; like saying it's okay to read about magic...and gays having sex, and child molesters, and father-stabbers and mother-rapers....and you can still have a pure, Christian mind afterwards.... Oh, hell no.

No, this is called "glorification," and only god is to be glorified. Children must be protected from such influences, or they might think magic is good, and might want to try it. (This is the good part--some parents will slip and say "they might think magic is real...." and if they do, it's fun to say, "But if it's not real, what's the harm in reading about it? Even if they tried it, nothing would happen, so how can they get hurt? And why would a sensible God prohibit you doing something that isn't real?" Hee!)

I felt like the biggest sinner at 17, because I dared to take a high school course on world religions. According to my church, it was wrong to even study other religions, lest we be tempted to believe one of them instead, and turn from God.

Keep your kids ignorant, and they'll be right.



Seriously. That's what that sort believes. Sigh.

[H3LL]

During the discussion following The Da Vinci Code, some Danish member of Opus Dei, made a very wise remark in a newpaper interview. He said:

When you look at page one in the book, right under the title, it says "A novel". That means that everything past that point is basically fiction. Including any claims about reality.

I suggest you make the same remark about HP. And, of course, in HP you won't even find any claims that any part in it builds on reality.

Hans

I'll second that.

I think that you are heading into a minefield of problems....Your choice.

That said your OP has made for some interesting bibble quotes. The most obvious conclusion is that bible literalists (Hi JF) must conclude that magic is real :D

Anyway, from memory, here goes:

Genesis 41:8In the morning his mind was troubled, so he sent for all the magicians and wise men of Egypt. Pharaoh told them his dreams, but no one could interpret them for him.

Genesis 41:24The thin heads of grain swallowed up the seven good heads. I told this to the magicians, but none could explain it to me."

Exodus 7:11Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts:

Exodus 7:22But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh's heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.

Exodus 8:7But the magicians did the same things by their secret arts; they also made frogs come up on the land of Egypt.

Exodus 8:18But when the magicians tried to produce gnats by their secret arts, they could not. And the gnats were on men and animals.

Exodus 8:19The magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the LORD had said.

Exodus 9:11The magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils that were on them and on all the Egyptians.

Isaiah 47:12"Keep on, then, with your magic spells and with your many sorceries, which you have labored at since childhood. Perhaps you will succeed, perhaps you will cause terror.

Ezekiel 13:18and say, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the women who sew magic charms on all their wrists and make veils of various lengths for their heads in order to ensnare people. Will you ensnare the lives of my people but preserve your own?

Ezekiel 13:20" 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against your magic charms with which you ensnare people like birds and I will tear them from your arms; I will set free the people that you ensnare like birds.

Daniel 1:20In every matter of wisdom and understanding about which the king questioned them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and enchanters in his whole kingdom.

Daniel 2:2So the king summoned the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers and astrologers to tell him what he had dreamed. When they came in and stood before the king,

Daniel 2:10The astrologers answered the king, "There is not a man on earth who can do what the king asks! No king, however great and mighty, has ever asked such a thing of any magician or enchanter or astrologer.

Daniel 2:27Daniel replied, "No wise man, enchanter, magician or diviner can explain to the king the mystery he has asked about,

Daniel 4:7When the magicians, enchanters, astrologers and diviners came, I told them the dream, but they could not interpret it for me.

Daniel 4:9I said, "Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in you, and no mystery is too difficult for you. Here is my dream; interpret it for me.

Daniel 5:11There is a man in your kingdom who has the spirit of the holy gods in him. In the time of your father he was found to have insight and intelligence and wisdom like that of the gods. King Nebuchadnezzar your father—your father the king, I say—appointed him chief of the magicians, enchanters, astrologers and diviners.

Acts 8:11They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic.

Revelation 9:21Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Revelation 18:23The light of a lamp will never shine in you again. The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again. Your merchants were the world's great men. By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.

Revelation 21:8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Revelation 22:15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Deuteronomy 18:10Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,

Kings 9:22When Joram saw Jehu he asked, "Have you come in peace, Jehu?" "How can there be peace," Jehu replied, "as long as all the idolatry and witchcraft of your mother Jezebel abound?"

Chronicles 33:6He sacrificed his sons in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD, provoking him to anger.

Micah 5:12I will destroy your witchcraft and you will no longer cast spells.

Nahum 3:4all because of the wanton lust of a harlot, alluring, the mistress of sorceries, who enslaved nations by her prostitution and peoples by her witchcraft.

Galatians 5:20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions

Jeremiah 27:9So do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your interpreters of dreams, your mediums or your sorcerers who tell you, 'You will not serve the king of Babylon.'

Malachi 3:5"So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the LORD Almighty.

Genesis 30:27But Laban said to him, "If I have found favor in your eyes, please stay. I have learned by divination that the LORD has blessed me because of you."

Genesis 44:5Isn't this the cup my master drinks from and also uses for divination? This is a wicked thing you have done.' "

Genesis 44:15Joseph said to them, "What is this you have done? Don't you know that a man like me can find things out by divination?"

Leviticus 19:26" 'Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it. " 'Do not practice divination or sorcery.

Numbers 22:7The elders of Moab and Midian left, taking with them the fee for divination. When they came to Balaam, they told him what Balak had said.

Numbers 23:23There is no sorcery against Jacob, no divination against Israel. It will now be said of Jacob and of Israel, 'See what God has done!'

Deuteronomy 18:10Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,

Deuteronomy 18:14[ The Prophet ] The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so.

Joshua 13:22In addition to those slain in battle, the Israelites had put to the sword Balaam son of Beor, who practiced divination.

Samuel 15:23For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, he has rejected you as king."

Kings 17:17They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire. They practiced divination and sorcery and sold themselves to do evil in the eyes of the LORD, provoking him to anger.

Kings 21:6He sacrificed his own son in the fire, practiced sorcery and divination, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD, provoking him to anger.

2 Chronicles 33:6He sacrificed his sons in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD, provoking him to anger.

Isaiah 2:6[ The Day of the Lord ] You have abandoned your people, the house of Jacob. They are full of superstitions from the East; they practice divination like the Philistines and clasp hands with pagans.

Jeremiah 14:14Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.

Ezekiel 12:24For there will be no more false visions or flattering divinations among the people of Israel.

Ezekiel 13:6Their visions are false and their divinations a lie. They say, "The LORD declares," when the LORD has not sent them; yet they expect their words to be fulfilled.

Ezekiel 13:7Have you not seen false visions and uttered lying divinations when you say, "The LORD declares," though I have not spoken?

Ezekiel 13:9My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.

Ezekiel 13:23therefore you will no longer see false visions or practice divination. I will save my people from your hands. And then you will know that I am the LORD.' "

Ezekiel 21:29Despite false visions concerning you and lying divinations about you, it will be laid on the necks of the wicked who are to be slain, whose day has come, whose time of punishment has reached its climax.

Ezekiel 22:28Her prophets whitewash these deeds for them by false visions and lying divinations. They say, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says'-when the LORD has not spoken.

Micah 3:6Therefore night will come over you, without visions, and darkness, without divination. The sun will set for the prophets, and the day will go dark for them.

Acts 16:16[ Paul and Silas in Prison ] Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling.

Isaiah 30:10They say to the seers, "See no more visions!" and to the prophets, "Give us no more visions of what is right! Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions.

Deuteronomy 18:11or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

Isaiah 47:9Both of these will overtake you in a moment, on a single day: loss of children and widowhood. They will come upon you in full measure, in spite of your many sorceries and all your potent spells.

Isaiah 47:12"Keep on, then, with your magic spells and with your many sorceries, which you have labored at since childhood. Perhaps you will succeed, perhaps you will cause terror.

Micah 5:12I will destroy your witchcraft and you will no longer cast spells.

Revelation 18:23The light of a lamp will never shine in you again. The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again. Your merchants were the world's great men. By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
Great fun.

Harry Potter...Eat your heart out :D

.

[Beleth]

For the next school holidays we're running a workshop for the kids - making a 'magic' book (with powerpoint), to coincide with the launch of the new HP book.
Why waste the kids' time writing a book on magic when they could be writing a book on reality?

If I found out that my kid was assigned a project like this for school, I'd be having some discussions with teachers the next day.

This isn't education. It's the opposite.
Plus, it's a freaking advertisement for the book.

[drkitten]

Why waste the kids' time writing a book on magic when they could be writing a book on reality?

For approximately the same reason that the students read fiction books.

Because it's fun and educational.

Most kids learn (and remember) more about life during the Revolutionary War from Johnny Tremaine than from a dry-as-dust history book.

[Darth Rotor]

Harry Potter vs the Bible
It isn't a contest. The Bible is an anthology of theological importance, the Harry Potter series a novel about English teenage drama queens set in an alternate reality England. One might as well pose Webster's Dictionary against The Pelican Brief in battle.

I read the books to my kids, one by one, as they came out. My son took on the challenge of reading the first book at age 8. It was over his head, but having had me read it to him and his sister, he ground away at it for weeks until he finished it. He is now older, and reads through the Potter books easily. My kids are both teenagers now, but I still like reading a chapter of the books to them now and again, for all of Rowlings inability to edit for conciseness. I usually add a few variations in presentation for humorous effect.

My Dobby voice imitation is still popular with them, as was my "Gollum meets Dobby and Jar Jar Binks" vignette after The Return of the King came out.

OT: I am still pissed at George Lucas for not treating us to a gory evisceration of Jar Jar Binks, at the hands of a light saber weilding Sith, in the Episode III film.

DR

[thaiboxerken]

I think they might be threated by Harry Potter books because they make more sense and are more believable than the bible.

[Beleth]

For approximately the same reason that the students read fiction books.

Because it's fun and educational.

They can read them all they want. I like it when kids read books. My question is why are they writing a book on magic?


Most kids learn (and remember) more about life during the Revolutionary War from Johnny Tremaine than from a dry-as-dust history book. Johnny Tremaine is, as you say, about the times during the Revolutionary War. It therefore has historical relevance. What relevance, historical or otherwise, do the Harry Potter books have?

Why not have the kids write a book on something that's both fun and relevant?

[Ichneumonwasp]

My guess would be that once the book comes out it won't be an issue. At some point even the fundamentalists are going to see all the Christian symbolism in the series. If they learn to read, that is.

[Darth Rotor]

My guess would be that once the book comes out it won't be an issue. At some point even the fundamentalists are going to see all the Christian symbolism in the series. If they learn to read, that is.
One hopes you are correct. Rowling is hardly the most eloquent author, nor the best wordsmith, nor the best story teller, but she is popular. Her application of archetypes is reasonably well woven into a story about kids in high school, and their problems. The magic is setting, not substance, and allows liberal use of deus ex machina (see the Patronus/Time Machine silliness) without too much trouble.

DR

[aggle-rithm]

But that's the point.. To them, its not just a book. I don't really get it - i was never that fanatic - but they really seem to think that a book can be evil.

One thing I've noticed with my fundie friends is that reading, to them, has a very specific purpose. Reading is what you do with the Bible and with books and articles about the Bible. It's about learning. The idea of reading for entertainment, as far as I can tell, is alien to them.

It's strange, because none of them have had a problem with watching movies or engaging in other secular entertainment -- but reading anything ungodly is a sin!

[Jon.]

They can read them all they want. I like it when kids read books. My question is why are they writing a book on magic?

The OP can certainly correct me here, but I had the impression that they were using Powerpoint to create a "magic" book - not that the book was necessarily about magic - and that the tie-in was just that it might be inspired by the magical books in the HP series.

[JonWhite]

During the discussion following The Da Vinci Code, some Danish member of Opus Dei, made a very wise remark in a newpaper interview. He said:

When you look at page one in the book, right under the title, it says "A novel". That means that everything past that point is basically fiction. Including any claims about reality.
Hans


Perhaps at some time in the future an original manuscript will be discoved in some dusty old cave in Israel:

Genesis

A Novel

:)

[Jon.]

Perhaps at some time in the future an original manuscript will be discoved in some dusty old cave in Israel:

Genesis

A Novel

:)


Wasn't there something along these lines in an early (season 2?) episode of Red Dwarf? A newsreader saying something like "A previously unknown preface to the Bible has been discovered. It reads, 'All characters in this work are fictitious and any resemblance to any person living or dead is purely coincidental.'"

[thaiboxerken]

Heh. Make a "psychic" book for them as well, using Banachek's material. I'll bet the christians get really upset.

[vIQleS]

The OP can certainly correct me here, but I had the impression that they were using Powerpoint to create a "magic" book - not that the book was necessarily about magic - and that the tie-in was just that it might be inspired by the magical books in the HP series.

That is correct. The book can be about anything that they like, although we might offer them some ideas (maybe, a HP short story of something) Most of the kids will manage a few words on each page at best, and that's fine. It mostly about having fun and learning some new computer skills

Anyway, from memory, here goes:

Cheers... (From memory? I'm a little skeptical about that... :) )


If I found out that my kid was assigned a project like this for school, I'd be having some discussions with teachers the next day.

This isn't education. It's the opposite.
Plus, it's a freaking advertisement for the book.

Well, we are a library, so having an event themed around the release of a very popular book makes a lot of sense... Also we work on a signup basis, so parents have to approach us...

It isn't a contest.

No - good point. I picked the title to get people to read the thread...

Has anyone had any discussions of this nature before, not just about HP? What sort of arguments to they use? Is this a common debate or not?

[Ichneumonwasp]

In my very limited experience there are no real arguments. The "arguments" consist primarily in what you have in your opening post.

But, like I said earlier, since Harry is probably going to be the Jesus figure and sacrifice himself in the last book it probably won't matter. If you want to argue from the books themselves you might want to point out that the final sequences in Chamber of Secrets constitute a pilgrim's progress. The whole series is loaded with Christian symbols as well as alchemical symbols (which was a very big deal in some parts of Christendom) -- and is why Hagrid is going to have to die in the last book too. At some point it should be as obvious even to the fundies that the series is as Christian as the Narnia series.

[slingblade]

I get it. Hagrid's John the Baptist. The Voice in the Wilderness.

Harry doesn't die, my bet. Too much outrage. "You Know What" was bad enough. I opine that Harry loses his powers when Voldemort snuffs it. He becomes a muggle. Thus, the wizard Harry Potter dies, but not the boy.

[Tony]

Well the Bible is just a book right?

I thought the bible was the word of god? Are you now telling us that it isn't?

[slingblade]

Ooh, I will, let me:


The bible is just a book.

[Ichneumonwasp]

I get it. Hagrid's John the Baptist. The Voice in the Wilderness.

Nah. Because he's red. Black died. Then white died. Now it's red's turn. Of course it is possible that red could be one of the Weasleys. But Hagrid's first name is Rubeus.

Harry doesn't die, my bet. Too much outrage. "You Know What" was bad enough. I opine that Harry loses his powers when Voldemort snuffs it. He becomes a muggle. Thus, the wizard Harry Potter dies, but not the boy.

You might be right. That would certainly serve the symbolic purpose, but he must act knowing that he would lose his powers and become a muggle. He must knowingly sacrifice. I like that idea.

I've always imagined him dying, though. I figured that the last chapter she wrote many years ago was a reunion scene with dead Harry, his parents, Sirius, Dumbledore, and the recently deceased Hagrid in a big party in the clouds. Snape is the good guy left to carry on while Ron and Hermione finally get to smooch in the aftermath.

[jeremyp]

The Harry Potter books are just fiction. This magical book you are planning to create is just fiction. Tell the fundies that you are teaching their children to be able to distinguish fiction from fact, nothing more. They cannot possibly object unless they are worried that their offspring will learn to distinguish the Bible from fact.

The magic in the Harry Potter books is not real, in fact it's a tool that can be used for good or evil. In that respect, it is no different from, say, a firearm in the real world. This argument will only work in the case where your fundie christians are also supporters of your wacky NRA club.

As for what happens in Harry Potter in the last book, the symbolism is more from Star Wars than Christianity. Dumbledore will certainly turn out not to be dead really (he is the Aslan figure from the Chronicles of Narnia). Voldemort is Harry's real dad and George Lucas's law suit will fail because British judges don't give a toss about crappy sci fi film series that should have been buried after episode 3 (real world chronology).

[jeremyp]

PS actually Geaorge Lucas might win because British judges also don't give a toss about crappy fantasy series that should have been buried after the fourth book. And they positively loathe a series in which the six book is unremitting tedium whose only saving grace is that it is less than 2,000 pages.

[Ichneumonwasp]

And Luna Lovegood is really Harry's sister?;)

Tongue in cheek is fine, but J.K. has directly commented on some of that, specifically stating that Dumbledore is not a Christ figure. In Chamber of Secrets he plays the role of God actually. The Phoenix is Jesus.

Hagrid would make a good Chewbacca, now that you mention it. And Rupert Grint's acting has been pretty robotic. I think you may be on to something here......

[jeremyp]

J.K. has directly commented on some of that, specifically stating that Dumbledore is not a Christ figure
I'm fairly certain he'll turn out not to be properly dead in the last book. He may not be a Christ figure, but he's certainly an Aslan figure (yeah, I know Aslan is meant to be Christ). It's difficult to explain but, to me, Dumbledore matches the characteristics of Aslan quite well, and better than those of Jesus.

In Chamber of Secrets he plays the role of God actually. The Phoenix is Jesus.
I was going to say that symbolism is too obvious, but J K Rowling is not known for her subtelty and she is writing for a young audience.

Hagrid would make a good Chewbacca, now that you mention it. And Rupert Grint's acting has been pretty robotic. I think you may be on to something here......
Sirius Black is Obi Wan Kenobi. Ron Weasley is Han Solo and Hermione is Princess Leia. Ron and Hermione are clearly going to get it on in the last book and I'm sure it could easily turn out Hermione is really Harry's sister. both of them are descendents of Voldemort. Voldemort will be redeemed at the end of the last book but too late to save his life.

I'm having trouble finding an analogue for Darth Sidius.

[Achán hiNidráne]

I think they might be threated by Harry Potter books because they make more sense and are more believable than the bible.

Joking aside, fundamentalist DO actually believe magic and witchcraft are real. Being an RPG-nut, I've met fundies who believe that the old first edition AD&D players guide and other fantasy RPGs* had actual curses and spells contained there in. When I ask them where, they claim that they are encoded, or that the process of playing the game somehow releases the black magic.

*Sci-fi games have also gotten this treatment. In one Christian anti-RPG pamphlet, my personal favorite, Traveller, was called the most evil game of them all because it had rules for world creation for your campaign settings and "only God can create worlds."

[Jimbo07]

Why not have the kids write a book on something that's both fun and relevant?

What about inspiration from fantasy?

I've thought that moving pictures would be cool, ever since I saw the moving picture newspapers in Harry Potter. In fact, I've expended a small (as yet tiny) amount of thought on the picture frame idea.

If technology can't do it now, it may soon, by Cracky.

:D

[Jesus]

Well the Bible is just a book right? and is that allowed to be taught in public schools...I forget.As I recall, just from one example, I learned about the story of Job in my senior year at the public high school. I am an atheist, but I firmly believe the Bible should be taught in public schools, as it is an undoubtedly highly influential book in the Western world.

[blutoski]

As I recall, just from one example, I learned about the story of Job in my senior year at the public high school. I am an atheist, but I firmly believe the Bible should be taught in public schools, as it is an undoubtedly highly influential book in the Western world.

There is some risk with this, though. Job is certainly a good choice for its literate value - it's beautifully written. Also Ecclesiastes and arguably the Psalms in general.

However, learning about the story in school is different than learning the meaning of the story in school. Generally speaking, Job doubted, but was rewarded anyway; Job's friends thought they understsood God's intentions, and were punished for their audacity.

Bottom line: since we can't understand God's intentions, our eternal fate is independent of our understanding of Him, and independent of our actions. This is clearly the purpose of the book, but you will not find many Christian people (who give advice about what God does or does not want people to do) teaching this. Such an interpretation is directly contrary to Catholicism and certainly Calvinism, although somewhat aligned with Lutheranism.

So, this is an example of why there is some risk to introducing Biblical stories in class: they are usually just an opportunity for the teacher to inject a personal religious doctrine to class discussion, rather than actually conduct an informative discussion of the source material.

[pgwenthold]

I'm fairly certain he'll turn out not to be properly dead in the last book.



His portrait is in the Headmaster's office. He is dead.

[Jesus]

There is some risk with this, though. Job is certainly a good choice for its literate value - it's beautifully written. Also Ecclesiastes and arguably the Psalms in general.

However, learning about the story in school is different than learning the meaning of the story in school. Generally speaking, Job doubted, but was rewarded anyway; Job's friends thought they understsood God's intentions, and were punished for their audacity.

Bottom line: since we can't understand God's intentions, our eternal fate is independent of our understanding of Him, and independent of our actions. This is clearly the purpose of the book, but you will not find many Christian people (who give advice about what God does or does not want people to do) teaching this. Such an interpretation is directly contrary to Catholicism and certainly Calvinism, although somewhat aligned with Lutheranism.

So, this is an example of why there is some risk to introducing Biblical stories in class: they are usually just an opportunity for the teacher to inject a personal religious doctrine to class discussion, rather than actually conduct an informative discussion of the source material.Indeed, and unfortunately, I see your point. I say "unfortunately" because in an ideal (in my opinion) setting, you could read the stories of the Bible, interpret them, and compare and contrast them to other major world religions. I'm realistic enough to know the firestorm it would cause in certain demographics.

It would require an unbiased teacher, who would reward good thinking, regardless of the position the student took. In my example, I was taking a Mythology class (I forget the exact name of the class), and the teacher pushed the kids to think very broadly about everything we did. He was my favorite teacher in high school, and I was fortunate enough to have him for four separate classes, and he really helped open my mind when interpreting any kind of literature, religious or otherwise.

[fuelair]

For the next school holidays we're running a workshop for the kids - making a 'magic' book (with powerpoint), to coincide with the launch of the new HP book.

I'm anticipating some reaction from the more intense religious types (many of whom are regulars on the SHWs*

I'd like to be ready when they come in to complain with some solid arguments and bible verses

Something like:

"What's your problem with Harry Potter / the SHW?"

"Bible says magic bad"

"Who's practising magic?"

"Harry potter"

"A fictional Character? So we should kill him in accordance with blah chapter blah verse blah? How do you propose we do that?"

And so forth.

Has anyone got a list of cool bible verses? Particularly dealing with magic etc... (also the standard slavery etc)

Anyone had this argument already? Any tips?


*School Holiday Workshop
Be sure to ask them if they watch Slyvia Brownnose!!

[Beleth]

That is correct. The book can be about anything that they like, although we might offer them some ideas (maybe, a HP short story of something) Most of the kids will manage a few words on each page at best, and that's fine. It mostly about having fun and learning some new computer skills
Ahh, okay. I don't object to that. :)

[thaiboxerken]

I think the bible is used as material in some schools, in religions and mythology classes.

As for the opinion that it's beautifully written, I couldn't agree. Seriously, I can't agree. It's repetitive, boring, absurd and reads like a bunch of manuscripts tossed together by random people about the same subject.

[Davo]

Ezekiel 21:29
Despite false visions concerning you and lying divinations about you, it will be laid on the necks of the wicked who are to be slain, whose day has come, whose time of punishment has reached its climax.
Ezekiel 22:28
Her prophets whitewash these deeds for them by false visions and lying divinations. They say, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says'-when the LORD has not spoken.

It seems the only people who are not guilty of misquoting the Lord would be Athiests/agnostics.

[vIQleS]

Be sure to ask them if they watch Slyvia Brownnose!!

Oh - we don't get SB over here... Well, maybe on SkyTV, but most people haven't heard of her. (I did see one of her books in the library the other day... Must get that out and have a look at it.)

[noblecaboose]

Perhaps you guys will find this amusing in its irony:
The Episcopal parish where I attended as a kid and that my parents still attend has a Harry Potter themed Sunday School curriculum. Seriously. They file into church wearing wizard hats, they refer to the classroom as "Hogwarts" and they play a modified version of Quidditch in the play yard. Their attendance has increased since starting this program and all of the kids now look forward to going to Sunday school.
I think it's kind of cool, actually. I mean, at least they're associating church with something that is openly make-believe. You believe in it while you're there, but you know it's not really real. Not really.
Its been my experience that the Episcopal Church is more about English/Anglican tradition than about Christian heritage, faith or Biblical literalism.
I guess it goes to show that all Christians aren't paranoid that their children will be hurt or converted to paganism by reading a work of fiction. After all, the Bible had more to do with my rejection of religion than any other fantasy story.

[Beerina]

Oh - we don't get SB over here... Well, maybe on SkyTV, but most people haven't heard of her. (I did see one of her books in the library the other day... Must get that out and have a look at it.)

In 1990, I watched "Saturday Night Clive" (yes, that is correct -- it was a Saturday evening humerous talk show hosted by a guy named Clive) and he poked fun one week at US shopping channels -- they just played the clowns praising ludicrously this or that stupid product, and the audience laughed. No skit. Just actual footage.

Last year I was back for a bit, and watched a couple of Brits on their own home shopping channel. I felt...shame. These channels are known to be skilled at getting people, especially the elderly, to think of them as their "friends", and get them to spend lots of money, often the entire life savings gets drained into it.

And unfortunately many of the big channels are owned by the same guys who own the other big cable and broadcast channels. Hence the big news organizations, owned by them, never do investigative reporting of this.

[aggle-rithm]

I think the bible is used as material in some schools, in religions and mythology classes.

As for the opinion that it's beautifully written, I couldn't agree. Seriously, I can't agree. It's repetitive, boring, absurd and reads like a bunch of manuscripts tossed together by random people about the same subject.

My Latin teacher in high school was trying to talk some of his students into taking an extra-curricular ancient Greek class he taught after hours. He was talking about all the great ancient Greek literature one could enjoy reading with a knowledge of this language, when one student asked, "What about the New Testament?"

He replied, very carefully: "Um...yeah, sure, why not."

[H3LL]

Cheers... (From memory? I'm a little skeptical about that... :) )

You're very welcome.

I tried to slip that one in under the radar.

Glad to see you're paying attention. :D :D :D

.

[Jekyll]

These channels are known to be skilled at getting people, especially the elderly, to think of them as their "friends", and get them to spend lots of money, often the entire life savings gets drained into it.

And unfortunately many of the big channels are owned by the same guys who own the other big cable and broadcast channels. Hence the big news organizations, owned by them, never do investigative reporting of this.

I'm not sure how true the first bit is, I can believe it's happened to some elderly people, but certainly the BBC and various national newspapers aren't associated with the shopping channels.