Terrorists and their supporters win in national election!

[Darat]

Like the thread title? Thought it might get a bit more attention then "Predictable results in Northern Ireland Elections" :)

Seems like the results from Northern Ireland will be pretty much as expected: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6433249.stm .

So will the DUP and Sinn Fein agree on power sharing and Ian Paisley become First Minister? My bet is that they will which means we will see an assembly of (ex?) terrorists and murderers led by a fundamental Christian madman!

The debates should at least be interesting "NO I SAY WE WILL NEVER ALLOW THE PAPISTS TO BUILD A NEW SEWAGE PROCESSING PLANT UNTIL THEY RENOUNCE THEIR HERESY!"

(For a point of reference for USA Members Ian Paisley makes Pat Robertson look sensible!)

[a_unique_person]

If it's (ex) it's still better than active, and if they spend their time debating sewage works, it's progress.

[Darat]

I was more wondering if you can ever be said to be an "ex" terrorist - I mean if you've committed a murder you will always be a murderer even if you are no longer murdering people!

[Francesca R]

I was more wondering if you can ever be said to be an "ex" terroristI think so. But is this a semantic point about a label, or are you wondering if reform or rehabilitation of individuals or organisations should ever be seen to have occurred? And if the latter, would that be specific to Sinn Fein, or a general wondering?

[ETA]—Of course, Mr Paisley tends not to ever really consider SF to be "ex terrorists" no matter what. He appears to think that it is possible (your link has yet another quote of him saying [Sinn Fein had to] "turn from their evil ways"). So in theory he appears to think that accepting them as reformed is perfectly viable. He just always gets out of it with something like: "Yes—but they haven't"

[a_unique_person]

I was more wondering if you can ever be said to be an "ex" terrorist - I mean if you've committed a murder you will always be a murderer even if you are no longer murdering people!

"Ex" in the sense that you don't intend to engage in terrorism any more.

[chocolatepossum]

I was reading about the Shankill butchers the other day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shankill_Butchers

Apparently they were released after the Good Friday agreement. Quite a high price to pay for peace, I think. I'm not saying it wasn't worth it, but the idea that people like that might be walking free or even participating in government really turns my stomach.

[The Painter]

I was more wondering if you can ever be said to be an "ex" terrorist - I mean if you've committed a murder you will always be a murderer even if you are no longer murdering people!

Nelson Mandela

From terrorist (some people think so) to Peace Prize

[Cleon]

Darat, Darat, Darat...Haven't you been reading Skeptic's threads?

The IRA and ULC aren't real terrorists--real terrorists are Muslim.

[Tony]

Nelson Mandela

From terrorist (some people think so) to Peace Prize

I wouldn't exactly call fascists "people", but ok.

[Darat]

I think so. But is this a semantic point about a label, or are you wondering if reform or rehabilitation of individuals or organisations should ever be seen to have occurred? And if the latter, would that be specific to Sinn Fein, or a general wondering?


It was more of a musing about semantics. And in regards to NI I don't make any distinction between the various groups based on whether they are "nationalist" or "loyalist" terrorists - they are just terrorists.



[ETA]—Of course, Mr Paisley tends not to ever really consider SF to be "ex terrorists" no matter what. He appears to think that it is possible (your link has yet another quote of him saying [Sinn Fein had to] "turn from their evil ways"). So in theory he appears to think that accepting them as reformed is perfectly viable. He just always gets out of it with something like: "Yes—but they haven't"
[/quote]

It does strike me as terrible that Ian Paisley has now been given the power to decide if the people of NI have a local assembly or not... he is a madman.

[geni]

Darat, Darat, Darat...Haven't you been reading Skeptic's threads?

The IRA and ULC aren't real terrorists--real terrorists are Muslim.

http://www.usm.maine.edu/~mcgrath/pages/95.htm

[Mojo]

Darat, Darat, Darat...Haven't you been reading Skeptic's threads?

The IRA and ULC aren't real terrorists--real terrorists are Muslim.Scottish Muslims.

[daredelvis]

Nelson Mandela

From terrorist (some people think so) to Peace Prize

I wouldn't exactly call fascists "people", but ok.

You know Tony, sometimes I think you throw around the 'fascists' card a little too freely, but this time I think you are spot on.

Daredelvis

[LeFevre]

Darat, Darat, Darat...Haven't you been reading Skeptic's threads?

The IRA and ULC aren't real terrorists--real terrorists are Muslim.

Why the dig at Skeptic in Darat's thread?

[DanishDynamite]

I'm guilty of not knowing enough about Northern Ireland politics to render a significant opinion, one way or the other.

Yes, I'm ashamed.

Any chance you could sum up the bloody history of NI in a few sentences, Darat?

[fuelair]

I was reading about the Shankill butchers the other day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shankill_Butchers

Apparently they were released after the Good Friday agreement. Quite a high price to pay for peace, I think. I'm not saying it wasn't worth it, but the idea that people like that might be walking free or even participating in government really turns my stomach.
Hopefully a good citizen or two will fix that problem.

[fuelair]

Nelson Mandela

From terrorist (some people think so) to Peace Prize
Depends on who he killed - if he killed.

[HarryKeogh]

I was reading about the Shankill butchers the other day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shankill_Butchers

Apparently they were released after the Good Friday agreement. Quite a high price to pay for peace, I think. I'm not saying it wasn't worth it, but the idea that people like that might be walking free or even participating in government really turns my stomach.

And here I just thought it was a Decemberists' song. What a brutal story.

[Darat]

...snip...

Any chance you could sum up the bloody history of NI in a few sentences, Darat?

No. (And that's a serious answer.)

[Francesca R]

It does strike me as terrible that Ian Paisley has now been given the power to decide if the people of NI have a local assembly or not... he is a madman.Agreed, though it's their problem for giving the DUP all those votes.

[Jon_in_london]

Any chance you could sum up the bloody history of NI in a few sentences, Darat?

Bizarrely, there is now an investigation into British Security Force colluding with the IRA.

Which exemplifies why its impossible to sum it up in a few sentences and do it any justice.

But basically -

Ireland colonised by British. Many Protestant, mainly Scottish people settle in Ireland, particularly in the north.

Debate about home rule late 19th and early 20th century. Put on back burner in 1914, loads of Irish fight in the British Army. Easter rising in 1916 put down and leaders executed which inflames Irish republican nationalism.

Nasty campaign of murders and dirty tricks ensues. Plan to partition Ireland so that majority protestant North can still be part of UK while giving home rule to south in 1922. Civil war for several years then peace

Fast forward to 1969(?) catholics minority in N.I subject to gross discrimination. Civil Rights movement formed. Violent confrontations between different sides. Police (RUC) not willing/able to defend catholic areas. Provisional IRA formed to defend catholics. British army sent in to do same. PIRA cheesed off starts killing British squaddies who retaliate and cycle of violence is complete!

[Darat]

Hopefully a good citizen or two will fix that problem.

In the UK we don't consider it good citizenship for citizens to kill one another - indeed it is partly because it became accepted if not acceptable to kill other citizens that there have been so many murders and attempted murders in NI over the last 40 years or so.

[Jon_in_london]

Depends on who he killed - if he killed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_mandela#Guerrilla_activities


In 1961, Mandela became the leader of the ANC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_National_Congress)'s armed wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe) (translated as Spear of the Nation, also abbreviated as MK), which he co-founded. He co-ordinated a sabotage campaign against military (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military) and government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government) targets, and made plans for a possible guerrilla war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare) if sabotage failed to end apartheid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid). A few decades later, MK did indeed wage a guerrilla war against the regime, especially during the 1980s, in which many civilians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilians) were killed. Mandela also raised funds for MK abroad, and arranged for paramilitary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramilitary) training, visiting various African governments.
Mandela explains the move to embark on armed struggle as a last resort, when increasing repression and violence from the state convinced him that many years of non-violent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-violence) protest against apartheid had achieved nothing and could not succeed.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_mandela#_note-rivonia)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_mandela#_note-longwalk) Mandela later admitted that the ANC, in its struggle against apartheid, also violated human rights, and has sharply criticized attempts by parts of his party to remove statements supporting this fact from the reports of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Reconciliation_Commission_%28South_Afric a%29).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_mandela#_note-0)



Charges included involvement in planning armed action, in particular four charges of sabotage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabotage), which Mandela admitted to, and a conspiracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_%28political%29) to help other countries invade South Africa, which Mandela denied.


Life isnt always black and white - Mandela was not always the paragon of non-violence he is often thought to be.

[Mephisto]

In the UK we don't consider it good citizenship for citizens to kill one another - indeed it is partly because it became accepted if not acceptable to kill other citizens that there have been so many murders and attempted murders in NI over the last 40 years or so.

I don't know enough about UK politics, but I'll trust Darat's judgement of Ian Paisley and the parallel to Pat Robertson to say that it sounds like "devolution" sounds a lot more dangerous than the 80s band, DEVO would have wanted.

I'm also "up in the air" about the teaming of two violent groups to stifle the actions of people like the Shankill Butchers (from Harry Keogh's link):

Many assert that the UVF assisted the IRA—their archenemies—in slaying Murphy, as it would have been very difficult for them to know his movements otherwise. His crimes were so savage that even his own side were appalled by him. This result suited both sides, with the IRA showing it could kill an enemy of the nationalist population, and the UVF able to wash its hands of the death of a man many extreme loyalists regarded as a hero.


At least it appears that two violent factions can agree on something - too bad they can't agree on how injurious the "normal" violence is to their cause.

[Darat]

In regards to Ian Paisley, the best evidence for my view can be found on his own website: http://www.ianpaisley.org/

[Mephisto]

In regards to Ian Paisley, the best evidence for my view can be found on his own website: http://www.ianpaisley.org/

Thanks for that link, Darat. The front door to his website pretty much says it all. I couldn't get much past his rants against Rome and Politics. He DOES make Pat Robertson sound tame! A very dangerous man to have in politics.

[fuelair]

In the UK we don't consider it good citizenship for citizens to kill one another - indeed it is partly because it became accepted if not acceptable to kill other citizens that there have been so many murders and attempted murders in NI over the last 40 years or so.
I do understand that point - and wish I never had to operate otherwise. But, in the absence of sure eternal punishment in an afterlife (and I am quite sure neither reward nor punishment apply-being atheist) punishment needs to be made and seen to be made for acts of violence (initial only - i.e. youkill a person who murdered a family, etc. you are fine; you murder/torture the family of the murderer or friends of the murderer (unless it is crystal clear and inerrant that the person you get helped keep murderer from justice) you die. My preference is for a world where there are no assaults because of, in lieu of valuing life, there is abject fear of what will happen if you make one. We don't have that - and letting slime go free to get peace isn't the way to peace.

[fuelair]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_mandela#Guerrilla_activities





Life isnt always black and white - Mandela was not always the paragon of non-violence he is often thought to be.
And if he was involved in any civilians (who had not specifically commited violent acts against others) dying, he needs execution.

[Jon_in_london]

And if he was involved in any civilians (who had not specifically commited violent acts against others) dying, he needs execution.

Not directly.

With 20/20 hindsight, all he did was sully his reputation and his cause. The "Armed Struggle" has about as much effect as a mosquito biting the arse of a rhinocerous. Aparthied was brought down by Western economic sanctions and the sporting boycott. It would have survived for a decade less if the ANC hadnt been fannying about with marxist nicompoopery.

[Darat]

...snip...
My preference is for a world where there are no assaults because of, in lieu of valuing life, there is abject fear of what will happen if you make one.


I'd say history demonstrates that punishment is not a very good deterrent for preventing the crimes that you describe.


We don't have that - and letting slime go free to get peace isn't the way to peace.

Again history, in this case very recent history, demonstrates you are wrong and that it can (at least as part of a series of measures) help bring peace.

[Gurdur]

And if he was involved in any civilians (who had not specifically commited violent acts against others) dying, he needs execution.
Uh huh. And if you apply the same citeria to the regime he was fighting against, which used terrorist-like violence in the aim of apartheid, well now, you could have a significant fraction of the South African population executed. You should also do Nixon and Kissenger at the same time, plus anyone who supported them (same criteria, remember?).

By the time you've finished, global over-population certainly won't be a problem.

And BTW, you can thank Mandela himself that South Africa did NOT become a bloodbath after the end of apartheid, or become like the Congo or Zimbabwe. How does that fit into your factoring?